NationStates Jolt Archive

What are the general opinion concerning the use of alchemy in MT roleplay? Alchemy is a science, after all, not magic or anything.

My argument for it is simple: if nations are allowed to have kilometer-long dreadnaughts, and insanely huge fleets of aircraft, why not also permit the use [in small numbers, of course] of alchemists as weapons of war?

To clarify, what I intend to do is to RP with a small military (likely never growing beyond a million total, no matter how large my population grows) and supplement that with a few hundred alchemists. Obviously, they wouldn't be super-soldiers or anything of the sort. Most would only be particularly skilled in just a few areas. And of course, they can be killed as easily as a regular footsoldier.

Anyway, I just wanted to hear the MT community's stance on this before I began actively RPing.

Poll in a sec.

I don't see the harm in it, as long as it's relatively limited. Maybe some more effective medics, maybe some smoke and bangs for intimidation, poisoned arrows, maybe even burning sulfur (which was weaponized in the real world by the Spartans in fact.)

However, I'd almost recommend against turning-into-dragons, becoming-invincible-to-weapons, or lead-to-gold as funding. Advantages must be limited.

I don't see the harm in it, as long as it's relatively limited. Maybe some more effective medics, maybe some smoke and bangs for intimidation, poisoned arrows, maybe even burning sulfur (which was weaponized in the real world by the Spartans in fact.)

However, I'd almost recommend against turning-into-dragons, becoming-invincible-to-weapons, or lead-to-gold as funding. Advantages must be limited.

Same thing, but if you have to keep limits on it unless your nation uses magic. Even then it will need to be well RPed.

OOC: Brings to mind Full Metal Alchemist, which I base the few alchemists in my nation (less than a thousand) off of, especially the concept of transmutation circles. Alchemist specialize in one area, like Roy Mustang in flame manipulation and Ed Elric in metalchemy, especially of his arm. As a matter of fact, one of my main characters, Jacob Masaki, is an alchemist.

However, I'd almost recommend against turning-into-dragons, becoming-invincible-to-weapons, or lead-to-gold as funding. Advantages must be limited.

Obviously. Besides, the invincibility and dragons are more magic, anyway. And the transmutation of gold carries a death sentence in Kharendor ;) .

OOC: Brings to mind Full Metal Alchemist, which I base the few alchemists in my nation (less than a thousand) off of, especially the concept of transmutation circles. Alchemist specialize in one area, like Roy Mustang in flame manipulation and Ed Elric in metalchemy, especially of his arm. As a matter of fact, one of my main characters, Jacob Masaki, is an alchemist.

A mainstream anime like this fpr alchemy, would be called scientific magic, for alchemy. There is limits and power needed to perform it, but the basis comes from magic though it is merged with science to produce results.

In relation to turning lead to gold, it's already been done in RL.

Fund raising...no, if you think it does, get a life.

In relation to turning lead to gold, it's already been done in RL.

The only problem being that the process is far, far more expensive than the value of the gold it transmutes. I love it!

A man by the name of Glenn Seaborg managed to convert lead into gold in 1980, throught the use of a partical accelerator. Unfortunatly the amount of energy involved, and the minscule returns made it effectivly worthless.

Why is this a question? Alchemy helped create modern chemistry.

Why is this a question? Alchemy helped create modern chemistry.

Alchemy itself here is being referred to as a near-magical and not to scientifically based creator of new products. Some near impossible weapons can be made with alchemy, or through the use of magic in the science.

There are 2 types, and this is the problem.

The alchemy I'm talking about is based around the idea of Equivalent Exchange. I can't make a giant super-weapon without having something of equal chemical value to start with. I don't know if that's still too much like magic or not, though.

The alchemy I'm talking about is based around the idea of Equivalent Exchange. I can't make a giant super-weapon without having something of equal chemical value to start with. I don't know if that's still too much like magic or not, though.

ya...a 100% efficent exchange...not possible, but it is from FMA.

Alchemy itself here is being referred to as a near-magical and not to scientifically based creator of new products. Some near impossible weapons can be made with alchemy, or through the use of magic in the science.

There are 2 types, and this is the problem.

If the RPed effects of alchemy are scientifically & economically possible, then the problem then is only terminology, right?

So basically something along the lines of turning a 100 pounds of lead into 10 ounces of gold?
Basically keeping the overall atomic mass the same, but altering how the molecules that make up the matter are arranged?
If that's correct it could fly with the less anal players, thought it would have to be very well done.

Personally I'd accept it as long as it had little to no real impact. If it starts making a difference then I qualify it as magic and not MT.

If the RPed effects of alchemy are scientifically & economically possible, then the problem then is only terminology, right?

They are not possible with the tech or way to create it.

So basically something along the lines of turning a 100 pounds of lead into 10 ounces of gold?

No, this would be creating a glyph basically and using the knowledge and power of the user to convert it into a projection and form that. So your imagery and skill would be key to produce the item, otherwise it could fail and something else would be created. Or you could lose control and it would explode.

It would balance it, but still be in the realm of the magical.

No, this would be creating a glyph basically and using the knowledge and power of the user to convert it into a projection and form that. So your imagery and skill would be key to produce the item, otherwise it could fail and something else would be created. Or you could lose control and it would explode.

It would balance it, but still be in the realm of the magical.
What does this gibberish mean? English translation, with no references to Anime or similars.

[QUOTE=Tanthan]They are not possible with the tech or way to create it.

Some alchemical processes are possible. Not all alchemy is lead->gold.

So an army could be using these processes and referring to them in alchemical terms.

Alchemy's never been a science in my book, and it really doesn't have a place in MT roleplaying. What would it be used for? We have better chemical weapons than burning sulfur, etc. Alchemy has been replaced by modern weaponry.

Thaeo....re-read it ok?

[QUOTE=Tanthan]They are not possible with the tech or way to create it.

Some alchemical processes are possible. Not all alchemy is lead->gold.

So an army could be using these processes and referring to them in alchemical terms.

If you read Kharendor's post it will make sense. Equivalent Exchange is impossible.

as straight MT, no, but I am open-minded, provided you don't try anything too outrageous, like turning enemy tanks into soupcans.

He can do that....but it would take to long. There needs to be a glyph and a person to activate it and CONTROL it. The larger the object or more needed to be done the harder it is to complete.

More traditional forms would be of stone walls and explosives. Defensive and small offensive alchemy.

In history, alchemy was the science/art of transmuting base metals into precious metals. They did not deal with other chemicals, so I don't see how the other things got into this discussion. Alchemists never succeded in their attempts to transmute metals or create the Sorcerer's (or Philosopher's) Stone, their other major obcession. They performed a wide variety of tricks and frauds that would be easily recognizable with modern forsenics science.

Kreynoria']In history, alchemy was the science/art of transmuting base metals into precious metals. They did not deal with other chemicals, so I don't see how the other things got into this discussion. Alchemists never succeded in their attempts to transmute metals or create the Sorcerer's (or Philosopher's) Stone, their other major obcession. They performed a wide variety of tricks and frauds that would be easily recognizable with modern forsenics science.

You too...read the thread starters posts.

Right so you seem to be referring to FMA Alchemists because actualy Alchemists would just be like chemists, under the cercumstances I'd have to say that it's a bad idea too close to magic.

Actually, the idea of Equivalent Exchange is not far off from e=mc^2 aka conservation of energy. One can only transmutate an item into another item of equal mass and element. A block of metal could be transmutated into a sword, for a example, but not wood or a car (unless it was a big block)

Still this would be based on the skill and materials at hand. A poor alchemist might turn what would be a sword into a distorted slab. While an extremely advanced and well-skilled alchemist would be able to turn it into a deadly razor sharp katanna with grooves for better slashing. I was experimenting with this kind of magic, but it doesn't seem to be to RP friendly, unless you RP a few characters and their slow and steady growth THROUGH the training and into a singular type of alchemy. One alchemist, one skill.

An alchemist of metals would be able to use metal and make repairs and defensive items from metal only. Less experienced alchemists would have a set limit on metal and learn more as a balance. Copper to Tin to Iron to Steel and so on.

An alchemist of nature would be able to create potions and strong medicines from certian plants, and extract fluid and materials easily. Obtaining water from trees and plants would be easy, but to extract antidotes to poisons or medicine would take a highly skilled alchemist.

Then you have combat alchemists. Ones that are capable of having personalized war machines and won't back down from a fight. Ones to make bombs from old bullets or duds of missiles. While a extremely skilled alchemist could turn people into explosives (I did the work...its there...) or destroy their internal organs with a devastating touch to use alchemy to break them up from the inside out.

Then you can have your forbidden ones. Criminals and murderers that person inhumane acts, most of these people will be in conflict with your nation or does unholy experiments of mutations or turning people into minerals and parts. Using people themselves as the ingredient for twisted means.

Alchemy may not agree with your religion and many cultures will not accept the fact that man is greater then God. Alchemy creates unnatural change and could create resistance. (If you remember the early episodes of FMA with the Father who used alchemy to revive the dead and perform miracles, then it is possible to also fool people with it.)

If I were still MT, this might affect me more, but seeing as this issue has got quite a few people in it, I might as well have some sort of say.

If you want to do Alchemy, fine, go ahead. It wouldn't matter to me.

Start making flying cows however, and neutralizing nukes because you turned all the U-235 or whatever in to Helium, and all I can say is:

Bye, bye, noob

If I were still MT, this might affect me more, but seeing as this issue has got quite a few people in it, I might as well have some sort of say.

If you want to do Alchemy, fine, go ahead. It wouldn't matter to me.

Start making flying cows however, and neutralizing nukes because you turned all the U-235 or whatever in to Helium, and all I can say is:

Bye, bye, noob

Lol yes. You need rules behind it otherwise it would become chaotic. Just developing them so that they are fair is pretty hard.

What can alchemy realistically do that you can't do with modern science? Honestly... All this stuff about glyphs and transmutations can either be done with real chemistry, or its magical gibberish...

And somehow, all these references to anime aren't buying me into your 'alchemy is realistic MT' theory.

Alchemy, in reality, is just the art of putting crap together to see what happens. Basically, modern chemistry without the experience.

Admittedly, alchemy can contains eye of dragon and tounge of griffin and all that, but it's still the same basic idea.

What can alchemy realistically do that you can't do with modern science? Honestly... All this stuff about glyphs and transmutations can either be done with real chemistry, or its magical gibberish...

And somehow, all these references to anime aren't buying me into your 'alchemy is realistic MT' theory.

For both of you to understand you need a crash course in Full Metal Alchemist.

Here are some of the terms from the show...

Terms

Equivalent Exchange - The rule that is the foundation of Alchemy law: To gain, something of equal value must be lost. It could be interpreted as Conservation of mass in modern day chemistry, or more precisely, by special relativity by Albert Einstein, conservation of mass-energy (E=mc²). (As it is, "Equivalent Exchange" is sometimes directly translated as "Conservation of Mass".)

Gate of Alchemy - The source for all alchemic power. All people have the gate inside of them, though only their souls can reach it. When someone performs a human transmutation, they reach the Gate of Alchemy and gain the ability to perform alchemy without a Transmutation Circle. It has many other names, like "Gate of Truth" as Ed saw it after performing human transmutation, seeing "all that is alchemy". Another name would be "Hell's Gate" as Izumi saw "Hell" when she looked within once. But as revealed, it's actually a link between the world the series takes place in and the Other World (our world around the early 20th century, 1921 at the series finale).

Philosopher's Stone - The item hunted down by every Alchemist, as it amplifies its wielder's alchemic power infinitely. It also can bypass the laws of equivalent trade. When the Elric Brothers were at the 5th Laboratory, they learn that the Philosopher's Stone is a byproduct of transmuting a certain number of human souls into a single stone. The legend of it bypassing equivalent trade was false as each time a human transmutation is done with it, a certain number of souls are taken away, eroding the stone. It also can transfer souls between bodies, though the soul also erodes. Hohenheim of Light created a Philosopher's Stone when his body began to degenerate and Dante used it to transfer his soul to another person. Hohenheim gave a piece to Dante who used it for the next 400 years until she ran out and had to set up the event that would create a new Philosopher's Stone.

Red Water - A liquid with the potential for alchemical amplification. It can be refined into an incomplete Philosopher's Stone either by a long and labor-intensive process, or by using the body of a pregnant woman as a living refinery. This substance is toxic to humans, but can be absorbed by plants. The question of whether the Red Water is composed of human souls like the complete Philosopher's Stone is not answered in the series.

Incomplete Philosopher's Stone - It is incomplete and not as powerful as the real Philosopher's Stone, which is sometimes referred as the Blood Stone. However, it is still quite powerful, as many characters who possess this stone demonstrate, even though it sometimes has undesirable side effects. The Military first learn of its existence when such a stone was created and engineered by Tim Marcoh, though he regreted this achievement when his project was used in the Ishbal War.

Philosopher's Catalyst- A material with powers much like the Philosopher's Stone. It was a project by Wilhelm Eiselstein, but was taken advantage by Camilla for reasons unknown. The Philosopher's Catalyst later turned out to be his daughter, Armony's, wings.

From: http://www.answers.com/topic/fullmetal-alchemist
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Now if you care to read this you will understand a little more about the show, but the thing is pretty easy to tell by the first two terms what most of the discussion here is about. No, we are not using REAL alchemy here, he was refering to Full Metal Alchemist alchemy.