NationStates Jolt Archive

I suppose the title of this thread is a bit misleading because it's at least partly inspired by the use of "technology" that is decidedly future tech, but I can't help but grimace every time I see a country decide to sell technology that either exists in the here and now and is produced by a RL country or has been "developed" in a venue such as Star Trek or Star Wars.

I'm not going to get into the whole debate on whether MT or FT is better and I'm certainly not going to debate the merits of using RL technology versus NS-ized technology for RPs, though my stance on that particular issue is emphatically clear from my RPs as my main nation. However, what I'm griping about is the fact that people continue to sell things like the Ticonderoga-class cruiser or the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier or the Astute-class submarine when any NS country could build it whenever they want.

The crux of what I'm going on about is the fact that if it's RL technology or if it's already been developed in a venue like Star Trek or Babylon V, it can be produced by any NS country without regard to copyright issues as they relate to the players of this game. In short, nothing would prevent me from building an Abrams MBT because no one has the artistic license to prevent me from doing so.

On a lesser scale, doing something like adding a nuclear reactor to a Iowa-class battleship and perhaps adding torpedo countermeasures or some other modifications to modernise the venerable old ship type also gets me a little bit because any NS nation that chooses to can build a Iowa or even modify it similarly to the way Nation X chooses to modify it. Nothing prevents Nation Y from adding a more advanced version of AEGIS or supercav guns for torpedo CIWS to a Iowa. Perhaps the specific system can be protected as intellectual property, but not the idea to modify the class.

The biggest gripe I have with either of the above is that neither alternative shows a lot of creativity on the part of the player. Granted, building a "land battleship" with OMFG! 60 inch guns isn't creativity, but Praetonia's Hoplite II MBT is. The Freethinkers' ship designs are. Tyrandis's aircraft are. Those invove extensive time in research, writing descriptions and statistics, and sometimes rendering the designs into a visual format that allows the reader to get an idea of what they're "buying." They also have the full protection of being intellectual property of their creators. As such, if you want to use the Hoplite II you'll have to order it from Praetonia.

Even if you don't want to RP in a world where the Doujin or the Freedom still inspires fear on the high seas and you want to use something that is feasible IRL, you can still design a completely unique system that is entirely your own creation. I'm considering building a battleship that is designed with an eye toward using technology that exists right now and is being used right now, as sort of a modernisation of the Iowa or the Vanguard-class battleships. You can still use a RL design to give you an idea of what to include in it, but give yourself the creative challenge of coming up with your own designs. The rewards are so much greater.

One of the hallmarks of this game is creativity, from the forms of execution employed by Generic Empire and his extremely irate lobsters to hunter-killer satellites Artitsa designed and employs. Don't take the lazy way out by copying other people or using someone else's work, no matter who the someone else is. Give yourself the satisfaction of looking at the results of your labour: A completed "product" that is remarkable for the learning you did whilst developing it.

bump

I applaud you on this. The messege you are saying is a little unclear, but I am getting you mean make your own stuff, and be creative.

I will be dishing out my last air superiority fighter, which is a multiple mission superiority aircraft (an aircraft who is so multi-tasking, it is superior in those fields, kind of a JSF to extreme).

I agree with you. I have constantly made my own weapons and such. Although I will say tanks and guns arn't my strong points, and since I don't know surface ships I made a fleet of fully-combative compairable vessels, I am sure I have given a lot of research into everything.

What has it shwon to me? Superiority over others who do not match my own works. Yes, I am bigger than most of my competitors (mostly from Earth Six and multiple continents) but that not only seals my fait as a superpower, but ym technology.

What if China had the exact same technology of the USA? What if the USA had more technology over China than it does now? The tides of the battle could turn drastically in both the long run and short run.

Go on Google and search Lidar Systems or Hydroelectric Propulsion Drives one day, and read on. Make a weapon using these things. Right there, you got something no one in the RL world has, and you are now over everyone else your size and under that use RL stuff only.


Sorry if I ranted a bit, but I had to add in my two dollars and a nickel.

I like this ideas that you set forth here, but...

Then there's people like me. I'm not lazy, I'm not dumb, I'm just lacking in any sort of military hardware knowledge of the practical kind. I know enough to get by in Hearts of Iron, but thats about it.

At least, with MT and PMT. With FT I can BS with the best of 'em (Once did the neary complete schematics for a heavy fighter. Woo!)

Now, I'm not selling any of the weaponry that is manufactured within my nation for my own use that's based on real weapons (Except, in the future, my seven-barrel revolver), but... :-/

At the same time, I might not have the technology or resources (More likely the resources, in my case) to manufacture 'real' weapons (Tanks, Ships, Planes - Oddly enough, spacecraft are doable), but I definatly have the hard trade goods and other forms of cash that could be used to purchase such an item.

Not bad, and I do agree with this, seeing as I do develop some of my own aircraft, which shall soon be ready for export, but I only buy exclusivley creative naval ships, mainly from Isselmere-Nieland, and sometimes Sarzonia, seeing as I have bought from them Time and time again, and their creative qualities have not diminished. One thing you didn't touch on was modern inspired creations, which I did several times with my aircraft, taking the idea of having an An-225 and it being a platform for multiple roles, changing the engines, and adding systems to it, which I designed, and which I thought would improve it's survivability and usefulness as a combat aircraft. Although I don't think it's overly bad for some people to sell modern vehicles of war as a base from which people can then move up, as they figure out what some of it means, I still like the creativity and work that goes into some of those systems that you had mentioned.

And Sarzo, did you bump this because you found it interesting, or because you wrote it under another name(not meant to insult or accuse)?

I didn't want to reveal the identity of one of my puppets because I plan to do some things differently with it, but I bumped it because I wrote it and it looked like it was going to just fade off into the nether world.

I didn't want to reveal the identity of one of my puppets because I plan to do some things differently with it, but I bumped it because I wrote it and it looked like it was going to just fade off into the nether world.
No Problem, I'd guess quite a few people have atleast one puppet... I know i do, but that's not the topic here, anyways, great thread

I didn't want to reveal the identity of one of my puppets because I plan to do some things differently with it, but I bumped it because I wrote it and it looked like it was going to just fade off into the nether world.

"Impressive.....Very Impressive"-Darth Vader

Yep he speaks the truth. I mostly take real-life technology and develop on my own. Basically what every other designer in NS does. But I guess buying stuff adds a little more fun to the game. Its fun to buy stuff from a storefront.

Speaking of which, buy from mine! :D

Good point, though. I find it annoying to see MP5s alongside SVDs and Challenger IIs in the same storefront. I must admit that the majority of my stuff is copies of things, but they ARE different in subtle ways. A change of caliber here, a bullpup conversion there, etc.
And of course I've got a naming system. I used to marked a SiG 550 clone as the StG88M3, but now I've added a couple of things, a railsight, LEDs and made a picture of the new StG88M4, and it's all cool.

I applaud you on this. The messege you are saying is a little unclear, but I am getting you mean make your own stuff, and be creative.I have to admit I went off on a tangent a little bit when I wrote that, but that was indeed my point.

I'm not saying people shouldn't base their designs off RL designs. Especially if you're designing something for the first time, that's usually a good way to get started as a designer. It takes a while to gain a comfort level with designing. It took me quite a bit of time before I got comfortable with designing naval ships but I'm at a point now when I design mostly by feel and instinct.

My only design to date is a combat helo. Yes, it's based on the Commache (Replacement for the Apache), yes, some of the systems are borrowed from IDF technology, but the role it plays because of this is totally different from the Commache. It still needs work and I don't expect it to resemble anything out there when I'm done, or more correctly, it will resemble many things. Though my background in engineering has helped in creating some of the systems that make it unique.

I have made it a point to design my own equipment as often as possible. And to date, most of the systems I have purchased, or have based on real systems are out of service. I design all my equipment from the ground up, and use RL systems as the image, or outward design for it. I do this because I'm too lazy and artiasticly challanged to make an image, except in the few things I have made 3d models for (IE my YF-100 Glaive).
I consider the image of the equipment merely that, the external view of it, what counts is the actual statistics, and design principal.

I disagree pretty much entirely.

I don't see who it hurts.

It doesn't stop players developing their own technology, building RL technology for themselves, or buying original NS technology from others.

Saying that any NS nation can build any RL tech because, "nyah nyah! You can't stop me!" doesn't make much sense to me as a role player. Not every nation has the capacity to build whatever the heck it wants, especially not in a capitalist economy that may well be obsessed with outsourcing. It's exactly like saying that Malawi can build Buran orbiters, Leopard II battle tanks, Minuteman II missiles, and B1B bombers because the technology exists... maybe that'll keep Mozambique's newly-produced T-54s and Fishbeds from over-running them (that last bit added to point out that such nations can't even produce their own outdated tat, so there's no point saying that the first examples are too expensive for a nation that would be rated with a basketcase economy).

If people want to buy RL tech, let them. When BG first came along, we bought Viggens from, hm, I think it was Svea Riga, because we had a god-awful economy that I was choosing to RP as based mainly on agriculture. Viggens were chosen partly because they were something I was loosely familiar with and trusted to match the sort of capabilities I wanted, and partly because they were available... and because most of the original NS planes were trying to out-do eachother and out-do the best RL planes like the Raptor and Eurofighter et cetera. There was no way I could justify BG flying HyperFlankers or something, and nobody was offering decent original aircraft that could be described as dated and affordable to us.

And there was no way I could justify BG producing original aircraft or building its own RL aircraft, either. If we built RL aircraft I would be bothered enough about where we got the data from (not being interested in RPing, "by magic!"), let alone the fact that there was no way we'd have a aircraft building industry.

You know that hyper militarised states like the DPRK (North Korea) can't even build their own jet fighters, right?

Good read, Sarzonia.

However, I must express my feelings and personal experience with this very issue. You see, I've tried to design my own hardware, but it barely gets any constructive feedback. The only person who had helped me out was Verdant Archipalego, but I haven't seen him in quite a while.

I've tried to design and build my Colossus Ultra-Heavy artillery platform, and my Paragon MBT without tech-babbling too much. Verdant Archipalego (VA) has helped me "realism" it to make them more believable, but I haven't heard or seen any other major contributors to these projects other than VA.

I have several ideas and concepts to use for naval vessels, but I'm afraid that these ideas would go the way as my other projects. Into Limbo without much feedback (not counting VA). If I don't get enough feedback, then how would I know if my stuff is decent, piss-poor, or god-moddish?


My other major issue with this thing is that I'm not a genius at designing or developing military hardware. I can't design naval stuff as good or skillfully as Freethinkers can. I can't design tanks as good or skilled as Doomingsland or Generic Empire can. Ditto for aircraft, missiles, APC's, infantry weapons, etc.

I really do not want to buy stuff at storefronts unless necessary, such as naval ships or MBT tanks to help me get insight into how to design one. I do agree that building your own stuff gives you a sense of satisifcation and fully in the spirit of Nationstates, as each nation has their own unique culture, traditions, language, history, etc.

I apologize for the rant, but I wanted to speak my mind and express my feelings in this thread as this topic is quite important to me.

Good read, Sarzonia.

However, I must express my feelings and personal experience with this very issue. You see, I've tried to design my own hardware, but it barely gets any constructive feedback. The only person who had helped me out was Verdant Archipalego, but I haven't seen him in quite a while.

I've tried to design and build my Colossus Ultra-Heavy artillery platform, and my Paragon MBT without tech-babbling too much. Verdant Archipalego (VA) has helped me "realism" it to make them more believable, but I haven't heard or seen any other major contributors to these projects other than VA.

I have several ideas and concepts to use for naval vessels, but I'm afraid that these ideas would go the way as my other projects. Into Limbo without much feedback (not counting VA). If I don't get enough feedback, then how would I know if my stuff is decent, piss-poor, or god-moddish?


My other major issue with this thing is that I'm not a genius at designing or developing military hardware. I can't design naval stuff as good or skillfully as Freethinkers can. I can't design tanks as good or skilled as Doomingsland or Generic Empire can. Ditto for aircraft, missiles, APC's, infantry weapons, etc.

I really do not want to buy stuff at storefronts unless necessary, such as naval ships or MBT tanks to help me get insight into how to design one. I do agree that building your own stuff gives you a sense of satisifcation and fully in the spirit of Nationstates, as each nation has their own unique culture, traditions, language, history, etc.

I apologize for the rant, but I wanted to speak my mind and express my feelings in this thread as this topic is quite important to me.

Good read, Sarzonia.

However, I must express my feelings and personal experience with this very issue. You see, I've tried to design my own hardware, but it barely gets any constructive feedback. The only person who had helped me out was Verdant Archipalego, but I haven't seen him in quite a while.

I've tried to design and build my Colossus Ultra-Heavy artillery platform, and my Paragon MBT without tech-babbling too much. Verdant Archipalego (VA) has helped me "realism" it to make them more believable, but I haven't heard or seen any other major contributors to these projects other than VA.

I have several ideas and concepts to use for naval vessels, but I'm afraid that these ideas would go the way as my other projects. Into Limbo without much feedback (not counting VA). If I don't get enough feedback, then how would I know if my stuff is decent, piss-poor, or god-moddish?


My other major issue with this thing is that I'm not a genius at designing or developing military hardware. I can't design naval stuff as good or skillfully as Freethinkers can. I can't design tanks as good or skilled as Doomingsland or Generic Empire can. Ditto for aircraft, missiles, APC's, infantry weapons, etc.

I really do not want to buy stuff at storefronts unless necessary, such as naval ships or MBT tanks to help me get insight into how to design one. I do agree that building your own stuff gives you a sense of satisifcation and fully in the spirit of Nationstates, as each nation has their own unique culture, traditions, language, history, etc.

I apologize for the rant, but I wanted to speak my mind and express my feelings in this thread as this topic is quite important to me.


I agree with both sides on the issue, and Sharina has illustrated the point I tried to make much better than I did. :-/

I did post the modificaitons (with links to the RL versions) that I plan to equip my infantry with, nobody commented (But several looked.)

I have to admit I went off on a tangent a little bit when I wrote that, but that was indeed my point.

I'm not saying people shouldn't base their designs off RL designs. Especially if you're designing something for the first time, that's usually a good way to get started as a designer. It takes a while to gain a comfort level with designing. It took me quite a bit of time before I got comfortable with designing naval ships but I'm at a point now when I design mostly by feel and instinct.

Flaw - and what if someone doesn't want to be a designer, but rather just wants to "Grab stuff and get going"?

Just because you find it "creatively fulfilling" to design everything, others do not. Using RL tech, or someone else's tech, gets things in motion.

Lesson: Not everyone is an artisan. If everyone were, lots of things would be designed, but oy the world would be boring.

I disagree pretty much entirely.

I don't see who it hurts.

It doesn't stop players developing their own technology, building RL technology for themselves, or buying original NS technology from others.

Saying that any NS nation can build any RL tech because, "nyah nyah! You can't stop me!" doesn't make much sense to me as a role player. Not every nation has the capacity to build whatever the heck it wants, especially not in a capitalist economy that may well be obsessed with outsourcing. It's exactly like saying that Malawi can build Buran orbiters, Leopard II battle tanks, Minuteman II missiles, and B1B bombers because the technology exists... maybe that'll keep Mozambique's newly-produced T-54s and Fishbeds from over-running them (that last bit added to point out that such nations can't even produce their own outdated tat, so there's no point saying that the first examples are too expensive for a nation that would be rated with a basketcase economy).

If people want to buy RL tech, let them. When BG first came along, we bought Viggens from, hm, I think it was Svea Riga, because we had a god-awful economy that I was choosing to RP as based mainly on agriculture. Viggens were chosen partly because they were something I was loosely familiar with and trusted to match the sort of capabilities I wanted, and partly because they were available... and because most of the original NS planes were trying to out-do eachother and out-do the best RL planes like the Raptor and Eurofighter et cetera. There was no way I could justify BG flying HyperFlankers or something, and nobody was offering decent original aircraft that could be described as dated and affordable to us.

And there was no way I could justify BG producing original aircraft or building its own RL aircraft, either. If we built RL aircraft I would be bothered enough about where we got the data from (not being interested in RPing, "by magic!"), let alone the fact that there was no way we'd have a aircraft building industry.

You know that hyper militarised states like the DPRK (North Korea) can't even build their own jet fighters, right?

^^^

What he said. Although I do notice that pretty much everybody plays their nation as though it's a superpower, and only a few people play their nations in a more realistic fashion. So this point may be lost on many.

Flaw - and what if someone doesn't want to be a designer, but rather just wants to "Grab stuff and get going"?
'I have tanks. They're tracked. They have guns. Oh, and armour. Their quality is loosely based on my UN rankings (Smartness, Military Spending, Arms Manufacturing & the general economic level come to mind), so deal.'

A vastly better alternative than using RL equipment, which doesn't make any sense at all in NS (Stealth is pointless, as it requires your opponents to have significantly less advanced sensor capacities. Ships need a vastly greater range due to NS' sheer size. Same goes for aircraft. Everyone has WMD capacities, this requiring a completely different attitude to materials engineering. Hyperurbanisation reduces the relevance of MBTs, etc).

Here's a thread where I've been discussing and offering ideas on railguns and alternative weapons.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=423188

See what I mean?

Sarzo, On your point of people basing off of real tech, I think is the best way to begin, and also a good referance point to feasibility, and on Vastivia's point about not everyone being an artisan, that is true, but I think Sarzo is referring more towards storefronts and their repetitiveness, but also look at me, I've never been incredibly creative, and not too good with figuring designs of aircraft, but, then I guess I got lucky, I had a freind help with designing the A-15, and also I was lucky to get another distinguished aaircraft designer to comment on it, along with having another great designer comment on it too. On Sharina's point, a good place to get started Is CSJ's help threads if you're looking at designing tanks or Aircraft, and sometimes you just need to go out there and ask people by telegram to check out your products and comment on them, atleast, that's what I did...

Sarzo, On your point of people basing off of real tech, I think is the best way to begin, and also a good referance point to feasibility, and on Vastivia's point about not everyone being an artisan, that is true, but I think Sarzo is referring more towards storefronts and their repetitiveness, but also look at me, I've never been incredibly creative, and not too good with figuring designs of aircraft, but, then I guess I got lucky, I had a freind help with designing the A-15, and also I was lucky to get another distinguished aaircraft designer to comment on it, along with having another great designer comment on it too. On Sharina's point, a good place to get started Is CSJ's help threads if you're looking at designing tanks or Aircraft, and sometimes you just need to go out there and ask people by telegram to check out your products and comment on them, atleast, that's what I did...

Your luck does not translate across the entire theater of possibility, artisan, and therefore is discounted. In our case, we bought designs from storefronts - then improved on those designs as we saw fit.

You also entirely missed the point and the boat - there are some people who could give a rat's ass how your armor scheme is better then CHOBHAM designs: they're here to play, not diddle around with statistics and technical possibilities.

In other words, if you're not a "techie", who cares what does better then what on paper? I'm working a story, not a business. These things do not exist in real life.

Oh, and Sarz? You might want to run "intellectual property" in front of a lawyer. If you published it in the public domain without notice, you've clobbered the copyrightability in most nations.

Your luck does not translate across the entire theater of possibility, artisan, and therefore is discounted. In our case, we bought designs from storefronts - then improved on those designs as we saw fit.

You also entirely missed the point and the boat - there are some people who could give a rat's ass how your armor scheme is better then CHOBHAM designs: they're here to play, not diddle around with statistics and technical possibilities.

In other words, if you're not a "techie", who cares what does better then what on paper? I'm working a story, not a business. These things do not exist in real life.

Oh, and Sarz? You might want to run "intellectual property" in front of a lawyer. If you published it in the public domain without notice, you've clobbered the copyrightability in most nations.


Point taken...