NationStates Jolt Archive

The IC thread is here:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=424249&page=1&pp=15

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Here we can talk about OOC stuff. Sorry Christopher Thompson, but I really have issues with an underwater sub type thingy going at 850 knots/hour. That works out to 979 mph.

TF34.1 large submarine Queen Amanda (passive mode) moving at 18 knots, intercept time to initial HES Angelus in about 13 hours (5 hours if you continue your course and speed). Her mini subs about the same time, and they are being extremely active at the moment. Although they will have to refuel at some point.

TF34.2 1 large cruiser, 2 large destroyers plus a replenishment ship and a light carrier moving at 18 knots will arrive about an hour after TF34.1... this force has not turned on its radars or broken radio silence, as it gets its information from UAVs, spacecraft etc...

the rest of the 3rd Fleet, 6 large cruisers, 12 large destroyers, 6 replenishment ships, 6 large submarines (which are also carrying minisubs) are 700 miles south of TF34, moving at 30 Knots, and that is where Admiral Tovey is located. It has broken radio silence. It will reached the area in about 36 hours.

In space, maintaining station at varying altitudes (200 - 500 miles up) are a Space Frigate, 3 Space Corvettes, 16 Space Fighters (now hooked up to the larger ships to save fuel and life support), numerous satellites

Above Rogue Jiggedy are a dozen UAVs all at 60 -100,000 feet, and detection would be extremely difficult because radar cross section is about the size of a bee, they have active camoflouge systems, and signals are sent up to satellites and then relayed to New Shiron before being relayed to users.

So Ilik Vaad, you probably shouldn't have seen them just yet either, although its possible.

Another dozen UAVs are watching the Ilik Vaad fleet, and a couple of those have been deliberately allowed to be spotted just to remind you that we are keeping an eye out.

By the way, ordering out the New Shiron and Dyellian forces isn't a very good idea... we are after all actually IN OUR OWN AIRSPACE.... chuckle

I should also note that while I haven't responded much (too much damn importatant paperwork to catch up on) Vrak will certainly respond in one form or another, either through diplomatic channels or military. It also doesn't mean that I'm not keeping tabs on the situation. Vrak is, after all, still the current FKC president holder.

edit:

Dyelli did a great job in summarizing a whole wack of information. Here are some helpful links for you, CT.

http://www.freewebs.com/klatchia/
http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/The_Federated_Klatchian_Coast

I'm not asking him to leave, I'm asking him to land his planes so they don't carpet bomb me. And I'm asking, nicely. Not demanding. Anyway, about the ship, please go to the bloody website I provided. I'll give it again: freewebs.com/supercav
If you go to history, you'll note that this ship isn't a futuristic spin-off of the seawolf like everyone else's subs are, but rather a fourth generation submarine that took years and years of research and development specific to this ship alone. This isn't something I pulled from my ass just to please the NS community, I actually made ships of all those classes first. They have all mostly been decommisioned since then, but I actually made them. Took them to war. This isn't some cool idea I found a month ago, this was a concept that I have ICly pushed to make reality the entire time I have been on these forums. Also, if you want to accuse me of GMing, go ahead, but it's really not jusified. I can actually start spewing out the force equations I used to ensure that this all works if you really want me to.
Also, I understand that this ship is very good, and that's why I didn't actually intend on using it in battle here. My initial plan was to have it escort the transports, drop the troops off, and go pick up another load. That was all. However, it's role has drastically changed from a curtesy escort to possibly war, and it's not something that I planned. OOCly, I was kinda under the impression that since I was told I could be in this rp, we would skip the long, drawn out formalities of getting permission to land in the Gonad and just get straight to the meaty rping, but I see now that I was horribly mistaken. So, I'm asking you guys to play nice and possibly back off and let's all have fun with this rp, but if you really want to go to war with me, fire the shots. But I'm warning you, it's not just me you'll be answering to. I'm a Council member of the LoD (Legion of Defense) as well as a mod for The Tradelands, which between the two house about half of the top ten defense budget spenders in the NS community as a whole. And, I happen to have military pacts with them as well. So if you really want to hit me, go ahead, but I'm really giving you fair warning, this wasn't my intent and you will regret it. Not threatening here, just warning.

Also, about the ship, it doesn't seem like you're well versed in cavitation. To understand why it can move so fast, you first need to know what cavitation is.
Traditional cavitation is a problem which has plagued ship designers for decades. Cavitation is caused by fast moving objects in water with sharp edges, such as propellers, spinning quickly and causing an actual change in the physical state of the water around them.
The faster a propeller spins, the lower the water pressure around it becomes. If this pressure falls fast enough, then the water reaches its ‘vapor pressure’, at which, like boiling water, it vaporizes and forms small bubbles of gas.
Unlike bubbles caused by heat though, the bubbles are unstable, and implode violently when their pressure changes. This implosion can cause extensive damage to vessels hulls. To submarines, which still cling to the notion of ‘run silent run deep’ this kind of enemy alerting noise can prove deadly.
Supercavitation, rather than fighting the process of cavitation, exploits it to create a near frictionless environment for a craft to travel in. Instead of trying to avoid or minimize cavitation, it attempts to create a renewable large bubble, a ‘supercavitational bubble’ which is designed to totally envelope the craft and thus make it travel within the bubble of air.
The breakthrough speed at which this occurs is 180 km/h, or some 110 mph or 100 knots. At this speed, with a correctly crafted nose, the pressure of the water at the tip of the vessel would drop sharply, and start to change the water coming into contact with it from its liquid form to its gaseous one. As this happens a bubble would begin to form, extending back along the craft.
A supercavitational craft needs to have a nose with a specially designed ‘cavitator’ which extends the bubble and makes it stable. The size and length of the bubble is dependant on speed, although it size can be increased by ‘ventilated supercavitation’.
In ventilated supercavitation, air is pumped into the bubble to increase its size and ensure that it covers the entire supercavitating projectile. The Russian Shkval torpedo for example, uses ventilated supercavitation by redirecting part of the exhaust gases from its rocket engines through outlets near the nose of the torpedo.
Supercavitation is the naval revolution which is set to change underwater warfare from a slow, silent and stealthy game of cat and mouse to a high speed, hyper-kinetic fight to the death.
Since their invention many years ago, ocean going vessels have always been plagued by the turbulence they create. Water is around 1000 times thicker than air, and logically induces 1000 times more drag on any object traveling through it.
The results are... Slow speeds. Conventional surface ships and submarine speed have always been limited to no more than 40 or 50 mph.
Supercavitation removes all these limits on speed...
Supercavitation occurs when an object moving though water reaches speeds in excess of 100 knots (110mph). If the object has a correctly shaped ‘cavitator’ on its nose, a bubble of air starts to form around the object... This extends to cover the entire object, and hence the object is no longer moving through water, but through air, which creates but a fraction of the friction! Hence craft will be capable of racing at high speed on or below the surface of the ocean.
Traveling in a bubble kills off all traditional marine propulsion techniques. Propellers spinning in air won't be much good after all… The only engines that will work are the same ones which power our ships to the stars… Rocket engines. Supercavitational craft are high speed, highly maneuverable rocket powered fighters.
And it's not just fiction and science:
The late 1970's saw the invention of the Shkval (Squall)... A Russian torpedo capable of speeds of 500 km/h (over 300 mph).
An improved Shkval has since entered service and high speed US supercavitational mine clearing cannons are already well advanced in development.
In 2005, the first German supercavitating torpedo was developed, known as the ‘Barracuda’ it travels at over 800 km/h. No mere straight shooter, the Barracuda is a guided torpedo that is capable of maneuvering its way towards a target.
You see, this is legitamite science. All I'm doing is taking the Squall and Barracuda and putting them on a submarine platform.

Oh thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you Dyelli Beybi! Oh God thank you! :fluffle: for you
And thanx again for the linkage, now I understand this part about the region well:
Considered by some to be the haven for lunatics in the NS world, the states within the FKC are perfectly content to spawn rebellions, engage in border skirmishes and be generally unpleasant to those that try to meddle in its internal affairs. In the case of the latter, most of the states unite like a pack of rabid dogs - although coordination resembles more like herding cats.

I understand the theory behind the ship, but a top speed of over one thousand knots? That seems............................a bit much. I can't see making the leap from a one hundred knot+ torpedo to three hundred and twenty six thousand ton ship going fast enough to circle the globe in a couple of hours.

I also want to know if your fleet has passed by mine yet, my ships were ready to srike, and I imagine that I was further out to sea than Dyelli Beybi's mines and should've had a chance to do something, I'd appreciate it if you could RP getting past me, or sneaking past me, or going around me, or something.

Christopher Thompson, I have read the theory before myself, which is why I was willing to accept it (an essay in a Jerry Pournelle Book, "There Will be War" book 2 I think)

to all

New Shiron is pulling back to its original position, with TF 34 about 300 miles south of the Gonad, and the 3rd Fleet 700 south of them. However....

New Shiron space forces are still overhead and watching very, very closely.

If Illik Vaad and Christopher Thompson start shooting at one another for whatever reason, New Shiron will not get involved because technically, IV isn't actually part of the JDF military structure or FKC political structure and is not an allied state.

Although New Shiron will be highly annoyed

OOC:

Yes. The Vaadians DO highly annoy people, don't they? Ilek-Vaad isn't part of the JDF but they were given JDF communication protocols during the 'invasion' of Dyelli Beybi and that Ford Harbour incident.

If you give the Vaadians an inch they'll take a mile ;)

I also understand and accept the theory behind Christopher Thompson's vesels, I just think the speed is a little, ludicrous, is all.

I understand the theory behind the ship, but a top speed of over one thousand knots? That seems............................a bit much. I can't see making the leap from a one hundred knot+ torpedo to three hundred and twenty six thousand ton ship going fast enough to circle the globe in a couple of hours.

I also want to know if your fleet has passed by mine yet, my ships were ready to srike, and I imagine that I was further out to sea than Dyelli Beybi's mines and should've had a chance to do something, I'd appreciate it if you could RP getting past me, or sneaking past me, or going around me, or something.

Well, what do you want, exactly? Do we want the small skirmish of 'these ships don't know the stand down is in effect', and I have to pass by you, or what?

Christopher Thompson, I have read the theory before myself, which is why I was willing to accept it (an essay in a Jerry Pournelle Book, "There Will be War" book 2 I think)

to all

New Shiron is pulling back to its original position, with TF 34 about 300 miles south of the Gonad, and the 3rd Fleet 700 south of them. However....

New Shiron space forces are still overhead and watching very, very closely.

If Illik Vaad and Christopher Thompson start shooting at one another for whatever reason, New Shiron will not get involved because technically, IV isn't actually part of the JDF military structure or FKC political structure and is not an allied state.

Although New Shiron will be highly annoyed


Haha! An ally for the theory! It does all work in physics, folks. Read the book...

Well, what do you want, exactly? Do we want the small skirmish of 'these ships don't know the stand down is in effect', and I have to pass by you, or what?

Well, I don't know? You posted that you were heading for Tactical Group Namroth Vedic's position, and then you posted hitting a minefield. I think it was New Shiron that pointed out that the mines wouldn't be out as far as my ships.

We can play it either way. Your ships can stop and identify themselves and then the Vaadians most likely won't shoot, or you can try and pas by or through and most certainly face a barrage of toroedos (mostly). No navy in the world would allow armed, unknown vessels to simply pass by them.

It's just that SOMETHING needs to happen, you haven't reacted or replied to any actions that my fleet has taken in my posts.

Haha! An ally for the theory! It does all work in physics, folks. Read the book...


Yes, it does work. It works to make in the case where you can build a torpedo that moves at greater than one hundred knots. I'm saying that it is a HUGE leap to say that a vessel over six times the size of a coventional aircraft carrier can do one thousand knots, it's not a leap that I personally think is entirely justified and possibly not probable.

IF you stated that the Angelus was capable of eighty or a hundred knots, I wouldn't have said anything, that seems plausible with the theory you're putting forward. Currently the speed of the Angelus seems to be a hugely over optimistic stretch in the theory and it's associated technologies.

I understand the theory of supercavitation, but I feel that you are using the "no limits" fallacy to justify such high speeds is all. I mean, it's one thing for a Shkval torpedo to go 230 mph but a sub to go in excess of 900 mph?

I can't find any information on the barracuda (and not about to go out and by the book). Do you have any handy link?

The Shkval:

http://www.periscope.ucg.com/mdb-smpl/weapons/minetorp/torpedo/w0004768.shtml

edit: I will have to assume that you are FT then Christopher? I mean, highly advanced FT.

This is the only link to the Barracuda that was not book related, it has the original German news story.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread148974/pg1

There are some additional links that are very helpful in that link above. There is more than ample evidence for actual super cavitating ordinance, but zero for super cavitating craft. There is tons of stuff on super cavitating propellers and hydrofoils (altogether different) reaching speeds of seventy knots and higher.

Once again I believe it's possible, but I don't think a ship the size of the Angelus would be reaching one thousand knots plus anytime soon.

Yes, it does work. It works to make in the case where you can build a torpedo that moves at greater than one hundred knots. I'm saying that it is a HUGE leap to say that a vessel over six times the size of a coventional aircraft carrier can do one thousand knots, it's not a leap that I personally think is entirely justified and possibly not probable.

IF you stated that the Angelus was capable of eighty or a hundred knots, I wouldn't have said anything, that seems plausible with the theory you're putting forward. Currently the speed of the Angelus seems to be a hugely over optimistic stretch in the theory and it's associated technologies.
Touche.
But that's why this is Post-modern. There are a few optomistic organizations and researchers who believe that this exact or a very similar ship is a realistic goal for the U.S. Navy in about five decades. This ship isn't of my own personal design. The proofs for the physics work and I've checked them, trust me, I don't intend to have a GM ship running around, but this ship is reliant on a few unknowns, I'll give you that. Mostly three of them:
That this is achievable on a large scale (which in theory it should be if you keep the thrust proportionate to the mass), that the human being can withstand such tremendous forces so instantly (but, as you may soon find out, I have people pass out when they supercavitate often) and remain conscience, and lastly that a design so large can withstand the force of one-hundred knots of water before it super-cavitates.
Yes, I know that this is a long shot, but this is a concept I've worked on for so long and so hard both OOCly and ICly.
Also, my military tends to fall along the lines of quality rather than quantity. I don't have a 2000+ ship navy like some people do. I used to, then I realized that I was becoming a number wanker, and decided to make a few, extremely good ships, planes and a few, very well trained troops. And I've stuck with it. It has allowed me to better charachter rp rather than number-wank and has made rp as a whole better for me. When you see this single ship, please also recognize that it is about 4-5% of my entire combative navy. I don't have a million of these things, I have twelve of them, that's all.

Oh, also, for the reason it can move so durn fast, it's effectively 'flying' now, with the exception that it doesn't have to have the entire physics to be airborn. Think about it. It's a constantly reknewable source of air, so we're dealing with the resistance of air here, whcih is approx. 1000 times less. (I'll try not to delve straight into equations for you guys.)
Going off of that, this ship is also about 1/3 engine alone. The Saturn IX (Implying that there have been 9 major improvements to this engine, and thus this is not the first) Hydrogen Breathing Engines that it has equipped can produce a far greater ammount of thrust than any other type of rocket system known today, solid or liquid fuel, and is reknewable in terms of fuel.
Also, the fact that 1/3 the ship is engine leads to another interesting point: you can't compare this to a plane. If 1/3 the space is the engines, than far more than 1/3 the weight is the engines. Meaning that there is no plane that has these ratios. If you were to take a plane and put it in the air with 1/3 engine, it would probably crash immediately (albeit quickly) because the engines simply fail to produce enough thrust to make up for their weight. But this thing doesn't have to fly. So we can ignore those principles, since it's control surfaces (ie, how it turns and remains stable) lie within the water it's self and through manipulation of the bubble.
By having small fins (very small indeed, to ensure that they can actually survive) dip into the water, even centimeters can allow this ship to have stable 'flight' and turning at such high speeds, due to the fact that even a few aquare meters of conrtrol surface in a substance that is 1000 times more dense than air is used to keep it level and to turn it.
Also, I'm not using a nuclear reactor here. I'm using a Fusion reactor, the same stuff that the sun uses, which physicists have estimated can yield more than a million times more power for its size. Short of spewing out the force/resistance equation I used to ensure that this thing can accelerate to the said speed at which the bubble can naturally form, I'll give you this:
the fusion reactor is possible. In fact, there's a little known quibble going on right now as we speak in the UN as to where the fusion reactor is to be built. Everyone wants it in their country, namely the US (who could've guessed that). If completed anytime soon, and if their equations are right, once this thing is finished, it's estimated that between 3-6 could power the entire nation of france. Also, this reactor isn't that large either. It could fit inside the garage (in terms of length and width, not height) of most of your homes, I'm sure. Especially if you've got one of those million dollar dry-wall mansions.
Also, in order to get the propellers (they're actually turbofan blades on this ship but we'll call them propellers for now) to get the ship to that speed, I use a direct mechanichal use of the reactor, not an electrical one.
To simplify that part, let's look at ye olde book of energy type conversions. Electrical energy requires that the power source transfer it's power into electricity, send it to another generator, and have that one power a motor which in turn drives something (like a submarine). This is what all modern-day submarines use (why I don't know). This yields an amazingly efficient use of just under 20% of the energy that is initially put into electricity.
Direct mechanichal usage, however, bypasses sending it to another source to be used, thereby allowing for a much more effiecient (just above 40% actually) useage of the energy. This, coupled with the fact that I'm using a fusion, not fission, reactor, gives this ship and unholy ammount of power that can be harnassed. Using only 40% of the energy put out by this reactor, I can easily achieve speeds up to the point at which the bubble could naturally form, and actually, if it didn't naturally form, could probably go a little faster, asll depending on wheather or not the frame caould withstand the stress.
Okay, there's my reasoning without the equations. If you want the equations, lemme know.

Well, I don't know? You posted that you were heading for Tactical Group Namroth Vedic's position, and then you posted hitting a minefield. I think it was New Shiron that pointed out that the mines wouldn't be out as far as my ships.

We can play it either way. Your ships can stop and identify themselves and then the Vaadians most likely won't shoot, or you can try and pas by or through and most certainly face a barrage of toroedos (mostly). No navy in the world would allow armed, unknown vessels to simply pass by them.

It's just that SOMETHING needs to happen, you haven't reacted or replied to any actions that my fleet has taken in my posts.

Um...I ran into the minefield, read the posts man. My sonar officer was just noting that there were ships south of the Angelus' position at the time. That was all. Not that they were in close proximity, but just that they were in the vacinity.
Oh, and I didn't mean that we'd be meeting you (sorry if you interpreted it that way), just that there were ships that we'd be passing by. Passing by is a pretty loose term, I meant that there were contacts a few (like shfifty-five miles at least) that were there.

Um...I ran into the minefield, read the posts man. My sonar officer was just noting that there were ships south of the Angelus' position at the time. That was all. Not that they were in close proximity, but just that they were in the vacinity.
Oh, and I didn't mean that we'd be meeting you (sorry if you interpreted it that way), just that there were ships that we'd be passing by. Passing by is a pretty loose term, I meant that there were contacts a few (like shfifty-five miles at least) that were there.


No matter, let's just pick up things where they are. Incidentally warships passing within fifty or so miles (heck even two hundred miles) of Vaadian warships would incur heavy fire, unless they identified themselves.

So we'll just say that you somehow slipped past them , but they are now (as in my second to last IC post) moving to surround you, and have hailed you. If there is shooting after that, all depends on how you respond.

To clarify again about your ship- I agree with all of theories you proposing and I do not deny that you can have and build a few of these ships, I just don't believe that the 1100kts speed is acceptable. If the speed is toned down to a bit more 'realistic' speed (i.e. a speed that allows for some RP parity) then I have no issues. 100-200kts would still be nearly three times faster than the fasted Vaadian ships and would seem (in my mind) a lot less techno-wank, which is nearly as bad as number-wank..............I'm just looking for parity. A ship going 200kts can still outrun most of my weaponry and even though I have the numbers a single ship moving that fast would stretch their ability, BUT a ship that can move 1100kts offers no parity, it is simply untouchable.

Just a PS-sometimes it's not about the eqations and the science, but about good and even RP.

The Doujin super dreadnoughts are also possible in theory but it comes down to acceptance by all the rp participants. I've said before that if the majority of the folks in the thread have no problem with it, then I'll go with it. I just hate opening up a pandora's box.

http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Doujin_Class_Super_Dreadnought

For the record, I'm suspicious of the Doujin. Though I've never been involved with one in an RP, but I'd have some serious reservations about, more than I would about the Angelus.

The Doujin super dreadnoughts are also possible in theory but it comes down to acceptance by all the rp participants. I've said before that if the majority of the folks in the thread have no problem with it, then I'll go with it. I just hate opening up a pandora's box.

http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Doujin_Class_Super_Dreadnought

Hit one with a rock or guided weapon from orbit and it will sink just like anything else. I believe kinetic energy is your friend if you can generate enough of it. I always thought the large surface supership was a bad idea in any case. Too much treasure tied up into a single platform.

They do look impressive on paper though. But so did the Battle Cruiser Hood just before a single 8 inch shell set off ready anti aircraft ammunition that created a chain reaction to the magazine and destroyed the ship in a couple of heart beats.

Very true. That's why I rely mainly on the Jaguar-Arsenal Cruiser for the bulk of my fleets. It's hard to hit from space and it's fast enough to avoid 'dumb' ortillery................................that's as long as my satellites are there to warn them :)

My Revenge Battleships are to deter the other uber ships out there :P and I still maintain that my smaller Revenge Class could take out a Doujin!

<snip>edit: I will have to assume that you are FT then Christopher? I mean, highly advanced FT.<snip>

My navy has made the conversion to FT, but nothing else in my military has. I thought that I could still participate in this because my navy would do close to nothing in the rp besides escort and transportation.
And yes, this will probably be the last non-FT rp I participate in, unlike other nations who simply become FT, I've actually spent the time to rp it, so I may seem advanced in some ways, yes. However, my Marine Corps is still PMT, believe me. And not equipped for such a variety of tasks as yours' are guys. Trust me, my abylity to rule the high seas if necessary (and I probaly could have, but that orbital bombardment scared the sh** out of me, 'cause there's nothing that ship can do, as it's not equipped with any F/S-39 LEOs (the satellite-intercept version of the F/S-39A Storm Rider).

Also, who is Midlonia? And why does he suddenly wish to attack me? And if you do Midlonia, rp it with fashion. You pretty much just sent off ships with no rp of higher command, no contact of anyone else to get any knowlege, and no warning to my government. Unless you justify yourself and rp better, I'm about to power-up my ignore shields. Sorry, but that's pretty much crap rping man. You have 1K+ posts, you can do better than that.

The Doujin super dreadnoughts are also possible in theory but it comes down to acceptance by all the rp participants. I've said before that if the majority of the folks in the thread have no problem with it, then I'll go with it. I just hate opening up a pandora's box.

http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Doujin_Class_Super_Dreadnought
Agreed; you don't see me trying to ressurect that evil monster.
Also, I'd like to note that while this thing can go fast, without its compliment of fighters and subfighters, it's useless. It has no offensive or defensive capabilities whatsoever gentlemen.

My navy has made the conversion to FT, but nothing else in my military has. I thought that I could still participate in this because my navy would do close to nothing in the rp besides escort and transportation.
And yes, this will probably be the last non-FT rp I participate in, unlike other nations who simply become FT, I've actually spent the time to rp it, so I may seem advanced in some ways, yes. However, my Marine Corps is still PMT, believe me. And not equipped for such a variety of tasks as yours' are guys. Trust me, my abylity to rule the high seas if necessary (and I probaly could have, but that orbital bombardment scared the sh** out of me, 'cause there's nothing that ship can do, as it's not equipped with any F/S-39 LEOs (the satellite-intercept version of the F/S-39A Storm Rider).

Okay, fair enough. I am mostly MT myself but have elements of post-modern tech (not necessarily all military but, say, some fusion reactors powering the civilian power grid for example). As I explained before and I hope I convey it here, I'm not trying to chase you out of this rp but I had a couple questions and, frankly, some reservations. Hence, why the ooc thread which is a good place to discuss such things. It's nothing personal against you as a player.

Midlonia is also a fellow FKC state. I'll let him answer for himself but it is possible that he could have picked up your movements via JDF channels. That is, there is quite a bit of info exchange going on when an unknown vessel comes close to the Klatch.

I see. Well, in any case, all I do ask then is that he better rps his actions. He is suddenly going to attack me? Where did this arise from? And he sends out his best battleship to do it? SCHWAAAA?
All I'm saying is that Midlonia is playing the jump to conclusiosn game, and he's doing it rather quickly under the guise of bad rping. Basically, I think that he's magically going to attack me even though I'd be able o detect him far before he even got close enough to me to attack me. And just a note to Midlonia: unless you've got some damn fine ASW capabilities on that BB of yours, or some orbital bombardment from up above, you really don't stand a chance once this thing dives. And launches and S-13 Fireblade to creep up right in the middle of your combat group undetected. And launched two A-34 Fusion Torpedos at your BB and half of the BB suddenly EVAPORATES. Get what I'm saying? Noit a threat, but I am saying that this ship is far above your engagemnt level and tech level. Especially with a friggin' BB. A BB attacking a Sub? That never works, man. If you're gonna try to hit me, you're gonna have to do better than a BB fleet, 'cause this ship was designed to take out BB fleets like the Doujin if need be.

Oh, I'd also like to note that this ship can't always "Crash Supercavitate", as this involves ejecting plasma out the nose of the ship and magnetically coiling it around the ship to keep from harming it in order to artificially create a bubble, and then zoom off. This is both very dangerous and very stupid to do all the time. Normally, the ship needs a very good stretch of space to accleerate to 100 knots, the speed at which most things (actually, most things super-cavitate at lower speeds, but this thing is a big thing) supercavitate. And yes, if you want me to, I can give the wank about why this thing can achieve 100 knots via turbo fan propellors. But if you read my above wank post, it says that it can and proves it without using the equations. Look, guys. Just because this thing can go so flippin' fast doesn't mean that it always will. I'll dumb it down a bit on what I use for the rp. It will still posess the abylity to move so fast, but just because it can doesn't mean it will. Also, I don't super-cavitate all the time; it's a dangerous thing, and it puts a tremendous ammount of stress on the ship.
So don't worry, I don't plan on playing the game of domination here. If I had that planned, I would have brought in more than one combat ship, and I would have launched my attack already.
Which means since I probably won't be super-cavitating around here much (as I had planned to not do when I got this close to the shore), this ship will be pulling under 100 knots then entire time it's here. It's only when the transports get past the minefield will I then super-cavitate back home to pick up the second wave of re-enforcements. (Which, might I add, will be the only group of re-enforcements for the duration of this rp.)

Midlonia? What are you up to anyway? Things are going to get pretty crowded with 4 fleets plus yours milling about the coast of Gonad.

I am not even sure there is enough room for us to maneuver without causing confusion if we all move in on the coast.

As I see it, we have the DB Fleet right off the coast, the IV fleet moving in on that, the Holy Empire ship somewhere between the DB and IV fleet, my fleet moving in from offshore (sandwiching IV and HE between me and DB), and somewhere Midlonia should be coming in from the west, and I assume at some point the Greenbeard navy will possibly sortie from the east.

Not to mention who knows what as far as things in space.

And DB divisions ashore, the JDF forces that are present, various wandering scienistis, DB and IV aircraft, my drones high overhead, apparently Holy Empire has aircraft.

What we need is a traffic controller.

I see. Well, in any case, all I do ask then is that he better rps his actions. He is suddenly going to attack me? Where did this arise from? And he sends out his best battleship to do it? SCHWAAAA?
All I'm saying is that Midlonia is playing the jump to conclusiosn game, and he's doing it rather quickly under the guise of bad rping.

You mean like you did in assuming that you could just slip past my fleets? You still haven't responded to any of my IC posts.

You mean like you did in assuming that you could just slip past my fleets? You still haven't responded to any of my IC posts.
If you're part of FKC or JDF then you know exactly who I am and what I am doing here. I thought we got past that part. If you want me to delete that post and go through this process with you as well, and then post my last IC post later, I can...
EDIT: Alright, I will.

CT, IV is pretty much part of the FKC (certainly his interests coincide with the Klach...mostly :) ). As explained before, the Klatch is basically one nation, which means you are (and all the others as well) intruding upon the territory of a 82 billion pop nation.

although technically IV is neither integrated into JDF command structure, or a formal member of the FKC and did move in a sizeable force very close to DB forces without even so much as a "hiya, thought we would drop by"

Which is why the New Shiron fleet moved much closer to the scene

As far as New Shiron goes, both IV and the Holy Empire are very suspect..

Holy Empire did not get New Shiron approval to continue its mission, it was simply decided since DB was cooperating with them to wait for further events.

I can always attack the Holy Empire later should it come to that.

You mean like you did in assuming that you could just slip past my fleets? You still haven't responded to any of my IC posts.

actually I don't think you were in position to block his move yet IV, you just now moved to within 100 miles of the coast. Although it depends if you are off the northern coast of the Gonad or the southern Coast of the Gonad.

http://www.eng.auburn.edu/users/donatgw/superklatchdeluxe.jpg

I am assuming the DB, CT, and I are off the south coast, with possible DB forces off the north coast, and you are off the north coast unless you have specifically indicated differently. I assume that Midlonia is coming in south of Greenbeard and I am trying to get him to swing around to cover the western part of the operational area. I assume Greenbeard can adequately cover the eastern edge of the area, and I can cover the southern edge, thus isolating the southern coast of the Gonad from any other intruders just fine.

Since we don't really have a map or chart showing exactly what happened, I am having to go on informed guesswork, but I think I am right on this one.

If you notice, Vaadian fleets previously alerted DB to the prescence of their fleets on 'maneuvers' and I even posted amap showing the positions of the three Tactical Groups, I will post it again:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/jaguar1024/Deployment.jpg

Now,Christopher Thompson himself posted that he was coming up from the south and was passing by Tactical Group Namroth Vedic, and despite my post that Namroth Vedic was readying to repulse his ships and requesting identification Christopher Thompson posted his ships as having already passed my fleets.

He assumed (incorrectly) that my ships would simply let him by. I explained that this was not the case but that I would also assume that he got by for continuity sake and then posted IC that Namroth Vedic was pursuing his ships and preparing to confront them when they surfaced by the minefield, and once again requested identification.

SO despite what was posted, my ships were in prime position to act first if any fleet or group of ships approached the Gonad from the south, Christopher Thompson simply chose to ignore their position and my post. In effect his ships went from heading toward mine , out at sea, to suddenly appearing in a minefield already past my ships.

Like I said I am wiling to overlook that for continuity, but I expect that my ships will be allowed to pursue since I was denied a chance to do anything when Christopher Thompson made his way past my ships.

Below is an image showing the movement of the two Tactical groups that have begun moving. Tactical Group Namroth Vedic's movements are assuming that Christopher Thompson's ships were headed directly to the Gonad as posted.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/jaguar1024/5b29c9e2.jpg

my take on that is based on the fact that he ran into a minefield relatively close to the coast, which gives me the impression that it is pretty far inshore from you.

For continuity though (and to reduce the already head ache inducing confusion all this is creating for me at least) I suggest that we simply let it slide, assume his high speed enabled him to slip inshore of you before your fleet moved from its original position.

I don't remember seeing those maps before (I simply could have missed them), but they are damned helpful... anyway of adding DB and my fleets to that?

although technically IV is neither integrated into JDF command structure, or a formal member of the FKC and did move in a sizeable force very close to DB forces without even so much as a "hiya, thought we would drop by"

Which is why the New Shiron fleet moved much closer to the scene

As far as New Shiron goes, both IV and the Holy Empire are very suspect..

Holy Empire did not get New Shiron approval to continue its mission, it was simply decided since DB was cooperating with them to wait for further events.

I can always attack the Holy Empire later should it come to that.

Well, that is quite true of Ilek-Vaad. He is not formally part of the FKC per sa since, well, he wanted to negotiate. But at least he is seen as more of an ally (from some states) rather than a complete unknown such as CT. As well, where are the other posters (The Kraven Corporation, Concremo, and Blood Moon Goblins)?

Okay, this is the lowdown on my entire fleet movements so far.
Blue: The original course I had planned when I was under the impression that Dyelli Beybian waters were only the normal twelve miles.
Red Circles: The minefields that I know of.
Yellow: My true course as of yet. I ran into the minefields, made the turn south, and was hailed to halt under penalty of obliteration by pretty much ALL of you, and I am waiting there right now for this to all clear up.
Black line: The course that has been given to me by the Dyelli Beybian government to travel, and I would, but I'm being forced to hold.
Black Circle: Where the Dyelli Beybian ships are located (at least where I think they are-ish) that will escort me to the Gonad.

As you can all see, this puts me a safe distance from Ilek-Vaadian forces. Ilek-Vaad. When I said that we were going to pass by you, I really really meant that as a relative term. It really means that we're going to pass your latitudinal markings, nothing more. However, you are well within the detection range of our ships due to the fact that we ingressed via super-cavitation (which is noisy) and because we set off a few mines.
BUUT: We have not crossed the minefield, and we are NOT near the Gonad as some of your posts thought that I was. I am well within Dyelli Beybian waters, in fact within danger of the minefield if I started to drift backwards I'm so close.
Okay, that explains my end of the story. All of you, please alter your posts accordingly, and also understand that I am WELL within Dyelli Beybian waters. Or at least I think I am :P
EDIT: Right, and the map is helpful too. Go here please:
freewebs.com/christopherthompson/5b29c9e2.jpg

Two things. Earlier you stated that your force was passing within (approximately) 55 miles of Tactical Group Namroth Vedic. YOU posted that your ships were coming NEAR my ships, I never said that. You map clearly contradicts your 55 mile estimate previously posted.

Second, you posted that your ships were headed to the Gonad to unload your forces. Now you say they were headed to DB. Your ships only started heading to DB in the past two posts.

I am simply going to stop responding to your posts. The story keeps changing, despite what has previously been posted.

out of curiousity, why is all of this a problem? The impression I got is that the CT ship moved into the area and ran into a minefield off the DB coast, the IV fleet decided to move inshore, and after getting clearance, the CT ship moved again.

Now its a fairly large body of water we are discussing here, and based on your movements IV, and your description of your movements CT, neither should actually be in contact yet except perhaps at very long sonar range.

You haven't actually indicated what speed your fleet was moving IV, so I don't know how fast it got within 100 miles of the coast (which you indicated as a destination). I don't know how fast the CT ship was moving either. But it really shouldn't be a problem should it? As you and he aren't actually engaged in combat operations at this time, ranges are vague until spelled out.

In any case, should you move in too close, you are going to start moving into the area where the DB fleet is (and DB indicated he is escorting the CT ship at this time). Have you done that IV? That is, moved into the operating area where the DB fleet is?

The problem is (again) that CT rp'ed is ships getting past mine, assuming that mine would do nothing, even though I POSTED to the contrary. Since I was not given an oppurtunity to RP that (he simply didn't respond to mt IC posts on the subject) I agreed that for continuity we would assume that he got past my ships and that my ships were pursing and ordering them to stop, that seemed fine. Now you are saying that I was never in a position to do anything in the first place and that CT moved in along the coast (stated well after the fact) despite his posts that he was heading for the Gonad and my position , or at least within 55 miles of my position.

My ships have been in position for weeks ( in game time) before CT ever posted anything. I have not been given any chance to do anything IC in response to CT's ships. I don't apppreciate having my IC responses disregarded and I don't appreciate CT constantly revising history to justify not responding to my IC actions.

So I just won't get involved with what he's doing.

In any case, should you move in too close, you are going to start moving into the area where the DB fleet is (and DB indicated he is escorting the CT ship at this time). Have you done that IV? That is, moved into the operating area where the DB fleet is?

No I did not, I was not given the chance, CT posted that he was in DB's operational area before I could respond, without responding to my posts before that. CT did not respond to my IC posts until I complianed.

IF we are to auume that CT is in that area, than I can assume I'm there too.

If one party can start making assumptions and disregarding IC posts than why can't we all?

Two things. Earlier you stated that your force was passing within (approximately) 55 miles of Tactical Group Namroth Vedic. YOU posted that your ships were coming NEAR my ships, I never said that. You map clearly contradicts your 55 mile estimate previously posted.

Second, you posted that your ships were headed to the Gonad to unload your forces. Now you say they were headed to DB. Your ships only started heading to DB in the past two posts.

I am simply going to stop responding to your posts. The story keeps changing, despite what has previously been posted.
When I said Shfifty-Five, that was kind of a joke, man (Not exactly fiffty-five, probably larger, but by how much I dunno). I guess you didn't get it. If you haven't seen that flash...well, anyway, I don't have a scale on that map so, I guess it could be anything really, since I don't know the area well enough to have a map scale. I'm guestimating here.
Yes, headed toward the Gonad via that route. Exactly. Can't you read? The black line isn't what I've done yet!!! Only PART of the line there is completed! Only the yellow-ish orange part is what I've done as of yet!
LOOK CLOSER at the picture again.

The problem is (again) that CT rp'ed is ships getting past mine, assuming that mine would do nothing, even though I POSTED to the contrary. Since I was not given an oppurtunity to RP that (he simply didn't respond to mt IC posts on the subject) I agreed that for continuity we would assume that he got past my ships and that my ships were pursing and ordering them to stop, that seemed fine. Now you are saying that I was never in a position to do anything in the first place and that CT moved in along the coast (stated well after the fact) despite his posts that he was heading for the Gonad and my position , or at least within 55 miles of my position.

My ships have been in position for weeks ( in game time) before CT ever posted anything. I have not been given any chance to do anything IC in response to CT's ships. I don't apppreciate having my IC responses disregarded and I don't appreciate CT constantly revising history to justify not responding to my IC actions.

So I just won't get involved with what he's doing.

I changed my post just for you!
And I'm sorry, your original hail at my fleet was assumed null and void by me because other people said ICly that the problem was resolved and that I could move on, so I assumed ALL the players did this in their own way, seeing as you all use the FKC or JDF channels.
Alright, let's make a decision on this here and now IV. Are we going to sort this out ICly, or have you recieved the order to let me be by the other players?

As stared before, the forces of Ilek-Vaad do not take orders from the JDF, Dyellians or New Shironese , they might stand down IF the King of Vrak (the Federation Prseident) or his representatives gave them the news to stop.

BUT, at this point, I'd just much rather get on with the RP, there is plenty of stuff going on in the thread and it's not really worth making posts about your current situation.

Okay then. Alright, I'll make my post then. Sorry about alll the confusion IV. No hard feelings whatsoever.
:fluffle: and make up. Or shake hands, your call.

So who plans to go board and interrogate the Holy Empire ship? Volunteers anyone? Our President has spoken.....

Although New Shiron intends to misinterpret the message and remain on station to prevent escape south.

Wait, are you trying to scare me off of the rp Vrak? Or is this part of some greater plan to bring me to war? I'm really confused here Vrak, please explanify.

Why don't Vrak send a walrus of their own to interrogate the poor emprics? There's hardly a gun in the whole of Klatch that's not aimed at the Angelus right now, save the Dyellians'...

Wait, are you trying to scare me off of the rp Vrak? Or is this part of some greater plan to bring me to war? I'm really confused here Vrak, please explanify.

I think I can explain. The King of Vrak is attempting to exert control over the Federation, with no Consuls he is the default walrus in charge.

The Gonad is not Dyellian territory and technically any action in the Gonad , humanitarian or otherwise, should have been conducted under JDF oversight and command, not Dyellian military command.

The King of Vrak is angry (and crazy) at the Dyellians for grossly overstepping their bounds. He is also probably upset because the Dyellians gave your warships permission to enter Klatchian waters, which again, technically the Dyellian command shouldn't be allowed to do without Federation permission.

You're in the Klatch now CT, is a non-stop turf war between state powers and Federal powers.

That's all fie and dandy. This is the OOC thread Vrak. Watcha doin' Willis?
What do you plan to do here OOCly. Start a bloody war?

Wait, are you trying to scare me off of the rp Vrak? Or is this part of some greater plan to bring me to war? I'm really confused here Vrak, please explanify.

The president of the FKC is merely acting according to how he would normally act. The FKC has been through quite a bit, actually. The Dozle war, Drakonia's whole episode, skirmishes with Tersanctus and his pal Imitora (both have wisely improved relations with the Klatch), Neo Tyr's incursion and then the reaction of the FKC which resulted in their country being occupied and their capital collapsing, killing millions.

Basically, the president is following historical precendence here. Nothing unusual at all. Besides, how do you think a paranoid autocrat who feels no one really listens to him and is impatient with others not rallying to his cause would react? Very badly I would think.

No, I'm not trying to scare you out of the rp. Far from it. There is plenty of wiggle room still here but rps shouldn't always go the way you want it to. After all, you waltzed into one of the most paranoid regions in NS at 850+ knots. Do you want us to fetch you some tea as well? How do you think a region like Arda or Gholgoth would react? I mean, my rps don't always follow according to plan, which is actually nice because it makes you think quickly on your feet.

edit: That's a pretty good summary, IV. I should note that the current president of the FKC likes being in charge (and the FKC president office always has been the highest authority in the Federal government) but doesn't necessarily like making all these big decisions. He is quite simple in that he follows typical Vrakian psychology (enough guns and bullets will solve any problem) and becomes quite annoyed when there isn't anyone else around to do the heavy decision making (such as the Landgravine). He is a dictator at heart and would rather be with his harem instead of getting intel updates. Plus, he is very old which partially explains his paranoia.

Right everyone here is doing what is in their 'intrests' rp wise

D.B. -Kill off the elves, since we really hate them and they hate us.

Vrak -Wants D.B. to 'behave' and to get your navy out of internal matters

New Shiron -Gabrielle is the Overlord's wife, so he is the last person to know what she wants.

Alcona and Hubris -Was attempting to 'remove' high value civilians from being swept up by D.B. however because of the fact that Alconians make up a good deal of the Marines in the JDF (and the Navy) those orders did not come from General O'Booze

The Oracle -Well what she wants is likely going to be pissy.

The LOW -It seems we have to deal with you ignorant little Terrans playing with devices that you should not have.

New Shiron is trying to prevent a war, if it can, but figures better a foreign war than a civil war. The rather confusing naval maneuvers by various fleets off the coast of Gonad, and the fact somebody just set of a weapon of mass destruction of some kind in Gonad, is making the Queen of New Shiron rather irritated, and she has a temper too. Although I did post that the Queen was trying to reach her husband and the Vrak early in the thread, apparently those posts were missed in the course of events. I am playing the Queen as if she would do what my wife has a tendancy to do. Act, and then use the principal that its easier to get forgiveness than permission.

So New Shiron is conforming to orders from Vrak (the FKC President) but in a rather deliberate way to try and slow down the pace of events to allow for peaceful resolution of the crisis.

Although a sudden sortie of Holy Empire submarines is about to make New Shiron reconsider its options.

New Shiron, I didn't miss your posts about you trying to contact the King of Vrak. The thing is, he never was in the Presidential Palace in the first place. That's part of the smoke and mirrors that he likes to keep going since he figures if someone trys to kill him, they would try at that obvious target. That's paranoia for you! I'll make a post shortly to that effect.

He can be found in the capital of Vrak, which is Vrak Prime. Only once did he leave his royal palace and that was a long time ago - a secret meeting with the Executor of Tersanctus and the Landgravine.

New Shiron, I didn't miss your posts about you trying to contact the King of Vrak. The thing is, he never was in the Presidential Palace in the first place. That's part of the smoke and mirrors that he likes to keep going since he figures if someone trys to kill him, they would try at that obvious target. That's paranoia for you! I'll make a post shortly to that effect.

He can be found in the capital of Vrak, which is Vrak Prime. Only once did he leave his royal palace and that was a long time ago - a secret meeting with the Executor of Tersanctus and the Landgravine.

chuckle.. oh well... New Shiron is still trying to find him so eventually someone will think to call him in Vrak Prime.

Who the hell is Tarsonis6?

Right everyone here is doing what is in their 'intrests' rp wise

D.B. -Kill off the elves, since we really hate them and they hate us.

Vrak -Wants D.B. to 'behave' and to get your navy out of internal matters

New Shiron -Gabrielle is the Overlord's wife, so he is the last person to know what she wants.

Alcona and Hubris -Was attempting to 'remove' high value civilians from being swept up by D.B. however because of the fact that Alconians make up a good deal of the Marines in the JDF (and the Navy) those orders did not come from General O'Booze

The Oracle -Well what she wants is likely going to be pissy.

The LOW -It seems we have to deal with you ignorant little Terrans playing with devices that you should not have.


Now, now, we don't just want DB to behave we want ALL of you bad little Klatchicans to behave!

I also love New Shiron's take on the Queens actions. Absolutely brilliant!

He doesn't seem to be on the map...I'll report the post.

Savior Taskforce
The silent taskforce glided to a stop in full parade formation as all of their sub-fighters were deployed. It was an awesome sight to see:
Hundreds of sub-fighter aircraft ready to zoom in at hundreds of knots to vaporize the enemy in the name of great justice and his most holy Fuehrer. The Klatchian states had failed to make any major deployments so far, and had grossly underestimated the power that these eleven submarines carried.
And if the Fuehrer heard word of any inhumane treatment from the Angelus task force, it would take him but seconds to reach this force that was twelve-thousand feet in the deep.


Hmmm. 12 000 feet eh? Now we don't know how far out the continental shelf would extend from the mainland Klatch but in RL, it varies from zero to 930 miles with the average being 43 miles. Are you saying that your task force managed to sneak up this close again? How far out are you? Remember there are fleets from the JDF, Midlonia, New Shiron, Ilek-Vaad, and I think A&H not to mention Dyelli Beybi. As well, I have my silly little Guardian fleets (akin to a coast guard but using military vessels) out as well.

yes, the continental shelf is a real factor here... Most of the DB fleet is inshore, as is part of the Alconan and Midlonian fleets, and of course the Vrakian fleet. A portion of the New Shiron fleet is inshore as well, and will definitely be there when you arrive.

Your sortie was noted by New Shiron and that information was passed on, so no matter how quickly you get there, some JDF naval forces will be in position to detect and probably intercept you.

Incidently, speaking of space, what capability do you have? I have had some problems with your website (being able to open links), so although I have a very good feel for your navy, I know little about your air or space capability.

New Shiron by the way has subfighters too... that is what the Sealions are. They are slow compared to yours, but their weapons have subcavitation just like yours do and are also very high speed.

For tactical and operational reasons, I would be surprised if you launched your subfighters before reaching the operational area, as they would have relatively short endurance. Just like mine.

yes, the continental shelf is a real factor here... Most of the DB fleet is inshore, as is part of the Alconan and Midlonian fleets, and of course the Vrakian fleet. A portion of the New Shiron fleet is inshore as well, and will definitely be there when you arrive.

Your sortie was noted by New Shiron and that information was passed on, so no matter how quickly you get there, some JDF naval forces will be in position to detect and probably intercept you.

Incidently, speaking of space, what capability do you have? I have had some problems with your website (being able to open links), so although I have a very good feel for your navy, I know little about your air or space capability.

New Shiron by the way has subfighters too... that is what the Sealions are. They are slow compared to yours, but their weapons have subcavitation just like yours do and are also very high speed.

For tactical and operational reasons, I would be surprised if you launched your subfighters before reaching the operational area, as they would have relatively short endurance. Just like mine.

In fairness, we wouldn't have much of a fleet on hand and not close by to Dyelli Beybi. The guardian fleets would be deployed from Greenbeard and patrol the South Klatchian ocean and if they did detect the first sub the first time (and for continuity's sake they didn't) they wouldn't be able to do much about it except raise the alarm.

Guardian Fleet composition:

Type I

1 Destroyer - Sovremenny class
1 Frigate - Neustrashimy class
3 Patrol Boats - Molniya class
5 Enforcer 2 Class Patrol Boats (Kravoli)

Type II

1 Destroyer - Fregat II Udaloy-II class
1 Frigate - Neustrashimy class
3 Patrol Boats - Molniya class
5 Enforcer 2 Class Patrol Boats (Kravoli)

The Type II are found on Lake Olympus but can cross through the huge canal that connects the lake through Monte Ozarka into the sea (Bay of Lunacy I think). Generally on the open sea, only the Molniya class ships and up will be found while the Enforcer class will be closer to shore. So, they will not likely be encountered but I'll throw their stats up just in case. At any one time, there would be at least 2-3 guardian fleets between Greenbeard and the Squall Platform. The latter thingy is a massive oil rig/fuel depot/shipyard thing that sits in thw Squall straits (off the coast of the grey area where the Kandi Oompas are and close to the southernmost island of Alcona and Hubris).


Enforcer 2 Class Patrol Boat

Shipward: KMI Shipyard, Kravoli
Legth: 20.7M
Draft: 0.8m
Beam: 3.5m
Empty weight: 30tons
Power: 2x 3700hp Diesel Engines driving dual waterjet
Max speed: 58knots
Cruise speed: 45knots
Range: 1100nm @ 45Knots
Crew: 15
Armaments: 4x Torpedoes (droped over edge), 4x 12.7mm Machine guns(Demountable), 1 x 3inch Gun(Forward Firing)

An AA system will be fine(around 4 QUAD 30mm guns).

Cost: 5million dollars without any amunition.


Some will have an AA system and some will not.

Hmmm. 12 000 feet eh? Now we don't know how far out the continental shelf would extend from the mainland Klatch but in RL, it varies from zero to 930 miles with the average being 43 miles. Are you saying that your task force managed to sneak up this close again? How far out are you? Remember there are fleets from the JDF, Midlonia, New Shiron, Ilek-Vaad, and I think A&H not to mention Dyelli Beybi. As well, I have my silly little Guardian fleets (akin to a coast guard but using military vessels) out as well.
Don't worry, they're at least a hundred fifty nm out from the nearest klatchian vessel, and at a depth of nearly 12 000 feet, this coupled with their 150 nm distance out would make them exceedingly hard to detect and very hard to intercept.

yes, the continental shelf is a real factor here... Most of the DB fleet is inshore, as is part of the Alconan and Midlonian fleets, and of course the Vrakian fleet. A portion of the New Shiron fleet is inshore as well, and will definitely be there when you arrive.

Your sortie was noted by New Shiron and that information was passed on, so no matter how quickly you get there, some JDF naval forces will be in position to detect and probably intercept you.

Incidently, speaking of space, what capability do you have? I have had some problems with your website (being able to open links), so although I have a very good feel for your navy, I know little about your air or space capability.

New Shiron by the way has subfighters too... that is what the Sealions are. They are slow compared to yours, but their weapons have subcavitation just like yours do and are also very high speed.

For tactical and operational reasons, I would be surprised if you launched your subfighters before reaching the operational area, as they would have relatively short endurance. Just like mine.


Which website posed a problem to link opening?

And what do you want to know: My naval air force or my land-based air force?

Ahh....So that's what the sealions are. Can I get that stats on those please? As well as numbers of them?

And my sub-fighters were launched mostly to form attack groups and for defensive purposes. After all, it's awfully hard to coordinate hundreds of attcks sub-fighters all at once, so planning is needed.

And my space force--hehe. I don't have one. Like I said, I'm making the move to FT, and my navy has completed this move, but nothing else really has in all senses. My land-based airforce comes close, and some of its planes could be considered FT (especially my tactical bombers), but it is for the most part PMT.
Actually, if you really want to understand my military strategy in many aspects, it involves using a small number of very well trained forces tactically well to achieve superiority over a larger number of lesser trained enemies.
All of my forces are extrememly small for a nation working on 2 billion, especially when compared to a nation like your guys', but they are also extremely well trained and well equipped, this is what allows my advantage in most scenarios.

Don't worry, they're at least a hundred fifty nm out from the nearest klatchian vessel.

approaching from which direction? If from the south, then there are New Shiron ships in a chain going back 1500 miles. If from the east, you would have to thread your way through the continental shelf waters (see map links previously posted).

If you are 150 miles from the nearest Klatchian vessel, then you would have to be coming in from the far southwest, and then working you way north by northeast to reach the Gonad area. Geography is pretty restrictive.

About 300 miles from the coast you will reach the continental shelf. Which is about where the New Shiron picket line is, and those ships are as modern as yours. So by saying you are 150 miles from the nearest Klatchian ship then you are 450 miles from the crisis zone at this point, and have reached the detection range of the New Shiron 3rd Fleet if moving at speed.

Which website posed a problem to link opening?

And what do you want to know: My naval air force or my land-based air force?

Ahh....So that's what the sealions are. Can I get that stats on those please? As well as numbers of them?

And my sub-fighters were launched mostly to form attack groups and for defensive purposes. After all, it's awfully hard to coordinate hundreds of attcks sub-fighters all at once, so planning is needed.

And my space force--hehe. I don't have one. Like I said, I'm making the move to FT, and my navy has completed this move, but nothing else really has in all senses. My land-based airforce comes close, and some of its planes could be considered FT (especially my tactical bombers), but it is for the most part PMT.
Actually, if you really want to understand my military strategy in many aspects, it involves using a small number of very well trained forces tactically well to achieve superiority over a larger number of lesser trained enemies.
All of my forces are extrememly small for a nation working on 2 billion, especially when compared to a nation like your guys', but they are also extremely well trained and well equipped, this is what allows my advantage in most scenarios.

New Shiron is also one of the smaller Klatchian nations, at less than 2 billion, but also a high tech nation. Full details on my forces can be found here:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=424788&highlight=shiron

including stats on warships, aircraft, spacecraft and military vehicles that are important.

New Shiron also relies on a relatively small but highly trained, expensively and lavishly equipped, and very high tech military, and also specializes in unconventional warfare and asymetrical warfare techniques.

New Shiron has also fought and won a major war against a high tech invader

see link here:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=374390&highlight=shiron+invaded

approaching from which direction? If from the south, then there are New Shiron ships in a chain going back 1500 miles. If from the east, you would have to thread your way through the continental shelf waters (see map links previously posted).

If you are 150 miles from the nearest Klatchian vessel, then you would have to be coming in from the far southwest, and then working you way north by northeast to reach the Gonad area. Geography is pretty restrictive.

About 300 miles from the coast you will reach the continental shelf. Which is about where the New Shiron picket line is, and those ships are as modern as yours. So by saying you are 150 miles from the nearest Klatchian ship then you are 450 miles from the crisis zone at this point, and have reached the detection range of the New Shiron 3rd Fleet if moving at speed.

You are correct, the SW is where they are approaching from. And what do you mean by 'moving at speed'? As for their movement, everything is as still as a stone down there, they're waiting for orders.

New Shiron is also one of the smaller Klatchian nations, at less than 2 billion, but also a high tech nation. Full details on my forces can be found here:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=424788&highlight=shiron

including stats on warships, aircraft, spacecraft and military vehicles that are important.

New Shiron also relies on a relatively small but highly trained, expensively and lavishly equipped, and very high tech military, and also specializes in unconventional warfare and asymetrical warfare techniques.

Thankyou. Quite helpful. I like the F/A-22 D. Is that a real plane? I know of the F/A-22A and the F/A-22B variant as well as the YF-23B, but not the F/A-22 D. Is this your design, or is it one by the US airforce?

Thankyou. Quite helpful. I like the F/A-22 D. Is that a real plane? I know of the F/A-22A and the F/A-22B variant as well as the YF-23B, but not the F/A-22 D. Is this your design, or is it one by the US airforce?

the F22D is my design and is an extropolation assuming that like all modern airframes the A model has only the actual airframe in common with the D or F model. Essentially same stealth characteristics and airframe, but better sensors, electronics, and range due to improved powerplant.

a real world example would be the C130A versus the C130H (latest version) or the M48A1 vs M48A5 tank

You are correct, the SW is where they are approaching from. And what do you mean by 'moving at speed'? As for their movement, everything is as still as a stone down there, they're waiting for orders.

moving at speed would be anything better than a loiter or creep (below 20 knots basically).

moving at speed would be anything better than a loiter or creep (below 20 knots basically).
Ahhhh... Thank-you. I didn't know that bit of navy-speak. Very good indeed. See, you do learn something every day. As for that, no, like I said, there's not a single thing moving down there.

Orignially the F22D was the Haggarian Version of the F22 (but this is Pre-New Shiron's existence even)

Actually there is only some minor diffrences between the Haggarian and Shiron F22's actually...

CT, forgive me for asking a stupid question but can your submarine fighters launch themselves out of the water and fly like a regular jet? Is that what you mean by your defensive screen?

CT, forgive me for asking a stupid question but can your submarine fighters launch themselves out of the water and fly like a regular jet? Is that what you mean by your defensive screen?

A good question. Although I can live with it if they do. I read an excellent essay a number of years back in a Jerry Pournelle analogy "There will be War" which talks about possible military vehicles around 2100. Included where small submersible craft that can also fly. This by the way without anti grav technology. I don't have an internet source, but somewhere in my garage is the book with the essay. When the temperature is no longer hovering at 105 every day I will brave the heat and try and dig it up.

I would recognize the tech though if I saw it again on an online source.

The next generation of New Shiron submarines will have that ability, but then they will have anti grav technology.

A good question. Although I can live with it if they do. I read an excellent essay a number of years back in a Jerry Pournelle analogy "There will be War" which talks about possible military vehicles around 2100. Included where small submersible craft that can also fly. This by the way without anti grav technology. I don't have an internet source, but somewhere in my garage is the book with the essay. When the temperature is no longer hovering at 105 every day I will brave the heat and try and dig it up.

I would recognize the tech though if I saw it again on an online source.

The next generation of New Shiron submarines will have that ability, but then they will have anti grav technology.

Then that means you will have TEH GRAVSHIPZ!

CT, forgive me for asking a stupid question but can your submarine fighters launch themselves out of the water and fly like a regular jet? Is that what you mean by your defensive screen?
Currently two fighter types aboard the Angelus class of carriers: The F/S-39 Storm Rider and the S/A-15 Hurricane, which are the pinnacle of my naval technology.
EDIT: Oh, and IC post coming tommarow guys, I'm spending the night at a friend's house tonight and was just checking up on the thread.
O_o: who is this new man with teh supercav tech?

That's it, if shooting starts , I'm trotting out the Thunderheads I don't care what anyone says anymore :P

Ilek Vaad--- what is a Thunderhead? aside from being a cloud formation that I dont see nearly enough living here in the central California desert called the San Joaquin valley (god its hot today, a whooping 108, air quality in the foul for anyone needing oxygen range)

Christopher Thompson-- Clairmont is receiving military assistance from Vrak, and to a far lesser extent, New Shiron (I sent a small brigade under the command of Vrak forces but really haven't Rped in that thread myself) in a big war it is fighting. It is a very high tech nation. I suppose they felt they owed Vrak a favor.

Vrak-- I already have grav powered space craft. Aircraft and naval ships are the next logical step. Although still not in production yet, I do have a few prototypes and pre production models available.

Lords of War -- great minds clearly think alike (referring to the F22D)... chuckle

Not reading my posts in the FKC forum, eh? ;)

Operation Thunderhead (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=388774)


It is extremely classified and so far has only been IC made known to Vrak. I haven't used as I don't know if they are viable. My friend who is studying for his doctorate in physics gave me the basis for a good portion of the technologies (under torture), but I am still leery about using technology that is not readily demonstrable in RL.

BUT if the Klatch is to be filled with giant supercavitating submarines six times the size of the USS Ronald Reagan that can move at 1,000kts then I can bring out my Air Ships!

My GOD that looks rather lethal IV. If you use those, I may have to use my mobile fortresses.
*evil grin*
In their Defensive Bunkers (http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/gallery/1144029/photo_09_hires.jpg)
And of course on the offense (http://tecfa.unige.ch/~nova/img/appleseed.jpg)
They're very large. To give you a size comparison, draw a tiny dot by one of those small lines extending from the large cannon. (Those small lines extending from the cannon are actually 50 mm cannons, btw) That dot is the approximate size of a human being.

Oh, and of course, my best fighting force!
*super evil grin* (http://tecfa.unige.ch/~nova/img/1231055247106.jpg)

Okay look. We only called up Clairmont because we (Vrak) icly realize that we cannot match super cav giant subs. I think it makes sense that our miltary planners would realize this after getting the information from various sources, such as New Shiron.

But Clairmont can counter CT. Vrak does not call up allies willy nilly but rather when there is a serious threat that is posed. And super cav subs that are the size of a CVN going 850+ knots is a serious threat. Personally, I don't want to see the wank level being raised so much that it becomes unenjoyable.

Not reading my posts in the FKC forum, eh? ;)

Operation Thunderhead (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=388774)


It is extremely classified and so far has only been IC made known to Vrak. I haven't used as I don't know if they are viable. My friend who is studying for his doctorate in physics gave me the basis for a good portion of the technologies (under torture), but I am still leery about using technology that is not readily demonstrable in RL.

BUT if the Klatch is to be filled with giant supercavitating submarines six times the size of the USS Ronald Reagan that can move at 1,000kts then I can bring out my Air Ships!

Your airships aren't much different from my space corvettes, so I can live with them.

Okay look. We only called up Clairmont because we (Vrak) icly realize that we cannot match super cav giant subs. I think it makes sense that our miltary planners would realize this after getting the information from various sources, such as New Shiron.

But Clairmont can counter CT. Vrak does not call up allies willy nilly but rather when there is a serious threat that is posed. And super cav subs that are the size of a CVN going 850+ knots is a serious threat. Personally, I don't want to see the wank level being raised so much that it becomes unenjoyable.
Alright, fine. Sorry, it's just so easy to get caught up in the wank. Alright, I won't deploy the mobile fortresses in the Klatch. Anywho, can I still have the kitty snipers?

Your airships aren't much different from my space corvettes, so I can live with them.
Well that's easy for you to say; they won't be shooting at you :P
IF this turns into a war against the klatch. Which I most certainly hope that is doesn't.

Well the moment that supercavitating sub decides to leave the water I think the Var (LOW) will be demonstrating their use of gravships in dealing with annoying 'Terrans'

The Fortresses show up and your going to be dealing with Varian Frigates

But then again *wank* festing was not the idea of this thread.

flying submarines are much easier to hit than submerged submarines I would think

Useful for amphib ops though

Alright, with Charilie and the Choclate factory comming out what is about to happen next is going to make me seem like I'm a bloody twelve year old.

edit:I have just been informed that is is Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory considering how much I watched that as a kid you would think I would have remembered

The problem is that I didn't put the Ommpa Loompa there, Kandi did. I just sort of ran with it after the invasion because well I didn't want to screw what he was doing at the time.

However, considering that the only jungles I have are in the Kandi and they are the natives of the Kandi and my responsiblity, it makes sense (from an Alconian View point) to train them for other operations.

Of course, I was just informed that I am taking my nephew to see said movie so I will expect the Oomp Loompa will emerge as a mesh of the modern and classic movie versions (maybe I should go read the book)

Somehow I can't stop laughing about seeing Oompa Loompa paratroopers.

Hey guys, my posting this saturday will be close to nil (after 5:00 PM), as I'm going to a baseball game, and I can't promise much for sunday, but maybe one or two max. Just heads up.
New Shiron, your map link on the 14th or 15th (forget) page doesn't seem to work...
Also, where is Gordon bay, and where have your troops landed? All the sudden troop movements have taken me by suprise and to places I don't know.

Hey guys, my posting this saturday will be close to nil (after 5:00 PM), as I'm going to a baseball game, and I can't promise much for sunday, but maybe one or two max. Just heads up.
New Shiron, your map link on the 14th or 15th (forget) page doesn't seem to work...
Also, where is Gordon bay, and where have your troops landed? All the sudden troop movements have taken me by suprise and to places I don't know.

if you go to my nationstates page, and click on the region I am in, you will get a URL that takes you to the Klatchian Home page, and that has some maps on it... they are mostly obsolete, but one map (a handrawn one) has a map of Rouge Jiggedy on it, which is where the Gonad is, and on the eastern part of the southern coast you will find Gordan Bay, and the location where Alcona is moving in as well.

It is a good distance from where Dyelli Beybi and you are discussing things at the moment.

Midlonia, did you really just fire an actual shot at a ship that the JDF was in the process of talking to?

the New Shiron occupation of the Gordan Bay area will not be a permanent occupation... see below

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9269549&postcount=235

This is an Rp puppet to represent the elves and their leader the Dark Oracle.

Should we not try to resolve the issue of Midlonia's gun on his ship? If ignored, then CT was never attacked. If not, and it happens, the rp will change drastically.

Midlonia, CT and Clairmont have raised some interesting points about it. What are your thoughts?

Should we not try to resolve the issue of Midlonia's gun on his ship? If ignored, then CT was never attacked. If not, and it happens, the rp will change drastically.

Midlonia, CT and Clairmont have raised some interesting points about it. What are your thoughts?

Well, Midlonia has RPed more with you guys than I have, so I don't really know his history.

I have big problems with the gun. For one thing, how is it targeted? Now an explanation could be made, but essentially we are talking about a gun that would have to shoot something into LEO to hit something 2,000 nautical miles away, and boy would that light up all of the sensors on the various spacecraft that are over the area at the moment.

Another thing, I don't know what the damage effects are. Its been a long time since I read the Bolo series.

I have a problem with any weapon that cannot either be countered, or has no possibility of missing. Weapons are never perfect.

If he does sink the CT ship, assuming the CT is willing to accept it, or for that matter simply hits it, New Shiron will be really, really pissed if it results in a war with CT. Although its just the kind of thing that happens in the real world and in history. Somebody doesn't get the word, and an incident leads to war.

Of course Midlonia could just as easily hit a Dyelli Byebi ship, since they have a naval squadron right there, practically next to the CT ship.

I guess it kind of bugs me most though is that Midlonia seems to have ignored all of the posts from his own allies. At least some kind of post indicating that he wasn't listening or responding to JDF requests would have been extremely helpful here.

IF we are going to accept CT's giant superfast untouchable submarines then I would suggest that CT also has to accept a Midlonian weapon that can target it.

I for one still will not accept CT's subs as given. I also think that it is ludicrous that anyone would complain about Midlonia having a weapon that can taget it. Midlonia has made several posts about moving his assets into position, and he has every right to do so.

For CT to show up with a submarine that can travel at 1100kts that is SIX TIMES the size of a conventional aircraft carrier and then complain about wank is the height of hypocrisy.

IF CT ships are to stay, then I have no problem with other people having the ability to target them.

It is also important to point out that Midlonia only fired his weapon. The damage and casualties are , of course, for CT to decide.

Actually, here is the problem Ilek-Vaad...there are levels of FT and truthfully I don't know why Mildonia just didn't post as firing at say 400 nm (which is still quite a distance)

In the end it is sort of a colletive decision with some apparent dislike from players on both sides.

I do agree with you on the cavitation to a point but C.T. isn't off in la-la land with it (I could give a techinical explination of the major problems with his submarine moving at 1100 mph, he would be generating high pressure steam to move that fast and retain his pocket, effectively you can't avoid the laws of thermodynamics...which state that he would leave a nice line of warm boyant water rising up from path...

Second problem is that effectively he's made is passive sonar system either dead or a major liablity.

But in terms of the story line it really doesn't matter that much...

In terms of story line and RP, I don't think it matters much either. I just think that if we allow CT's uber submarine than there is no grounds to disallow Midlonia's plasma cannon (physics says that is possible too) and CT certainly has no grounds for ignoring Midlonia's post.

I don't like Midlonia and I don't approve of his tech, BUT for the sake of parity it's hypocritical to allow one and not allow another.

I think that CT has to respond to Midlonia's post. If CT ignores Midlonia's post, then I'm ignoring CT's uber sub and sinking it coventionally.

EDIT: I think Midlonia posted his range the way he did because if he fired at any closer range CT's sub would be able to close within range to counter attack within seconds.

I think we have sets of criteria here...

First, that the C.T./Hellbore tech level. That is they are both really uber tech (as far as I am concerned) and therefore both should be allowed.

Second, (and the one that C.T. is applying) is that there must be a reasonable explination of the weapon if it is to be in the thread.

Now, C.T. has taken some prelimiary research studies with supercavitation and gone way beyond what I think would be considered reasonable. (I base this on reading two of the available scientific papers published on the subject. You have to learn to read what is not there as much as what is there with these things, people tend to be a bit...hypish at times even in the scientific community these days because if your not finding the next great advancement of technology since the invention of the turbine then what good are you? The law of a scientific paper these days is to understand that all problems with something are ignored, why because you have to if you want to seem like the second comming of Einstein. :mad: )

Enough with my rant there...C.T. appears to be trying to apply the second criteria (that he feels he has met in his uber sub) to the Hellbore.

The question then becomes should we apply it or not apply that second criteria. My reading is that Ilek-Vaad, you would apply a much higher standard of this second criteria to both C.T. and Mildonia.

I happen to be leaning towards C.T. in this, but I have to admit my bias against having to start a war with Mildonia (For OOC reasons but ICC I'd go after them hammers and tongs for that display) is likely influencing my decision more than a fair look at attempting to create 'fair play'

Additonal point, Plasma weapons make horrid atmospheric ranged weapons due to heat disipation...The heat displaced per unit area area is determined by k(T1-T2) k between two gases is not great but that T1-T2 is massive...and so is the diffusion coefficent. In space k is going to be infinitesimal (due to the very, very low outer gas density) and lack of any real shear forces will make the effective energy envolope much larger...

*Puts hands up into the air* I just spent an entire post getting nowhere fast...

I'm not taking sides here. I just want Midlonia to speak up and then we can get on with this. I tend to agree with IV in that we all seem to be giving CT the benefit of his uber sub so why not Midlonia's gun?

I don't want to see this end up in a wankfest and then ignore.

Well lets see now...

If nothing else, I want a plausible explanation of what the gun does, even if its in Science Fiction terms.

I am using anti gravity technology based on the Traveller Roleplaying game, and details abound on that.

CT is using supercavitation, and has made a fairly good Science Fiction explanation for it.

Midlonia referred to a book source, but I need some explanation or at least a source on line to look at it.

Thats what I want. Some Handwavium thats reasonable

From the Tough mans guide to the Galaxy:
"HANDWAVIUM. A substance with extraordinary properties, capable for example of withstanding a direct hit by a thermonuclear warhead. By extension, the term [which I stole from Chris Weuve's SFCONSIM-L discussion group] is applied to high-TECHLEVEL engineering of any sort, especially if it falls outside the constraints of HARD SF. A lot of people, me included, try to avoid arbitrary use of Handwavium, but the truth is that you can't travel the KNOWN GALAXY without it, because any FTL is pure Handwavium. So get used to it. "

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lyonesse/spaceguideF-L.htm

also from that site

"HARD SF. Written SF that adheres, or tries to adhere, to plausible science and technology. Therefore it generally implies a fairly modest TECHLEVEL; the most anal Hard SF may even preclude FTL. For obvious reasons, plausible is pretty much in the eye of the beholder. It is also a moving target. In fact, you can usually date Hard SF particularly well by its technology, which will lean heavily on whatever technical or scientific speculation was fashionable about five years before a book's publication date. If this did not pan out (and mostly it hasn't), the resulting Hard SF will sound very dated within a decade or so."

MY preferred tech level is that if in real life, the technology has been tested in real life conditions, it can be used.

Super cavitation- has been sucessfully tested on torpedos, anti-mine ordinance and super cavitating propellers. I have no problem with the super cavitating sub. My problem lies with the speed (1100kts) and the size (300,000tons displaced) as stated before I would have no problem extrapolating existing torpedo technologies to a giant sub, but only at a much lower speed. The fastest torpedo yet bult and tested does right around 230kts, I would be more than happy to except completely something right around that nautical speed range. CT did a very good job explaining his tech, I just don't think it's entirely plausible in the form he has chosen to use.

Plasma cannon- plausible technology, but so far never built or tested in weaponized form, restricted entirely to laboratories at this point. I would still accept a plasma cannon so long as limitations were placed on it (like atmospheric ones). Plasma can be generated in a laboratory, ust not in handy weapon form as of yet. Can a plasma cannon be 'explained'? No, as no such things exist. Can Midlonia have a good RP background and explanation to it? Sure.

I just think that if CT shows up with a sub that can outrun any vessel currently being used by everyone in the thread, not to mention faster than any torpedo or ordinance that may well be able to damage it that it is perfectly reasonable, for the sake of parity, that Midlonia be allowed to use a weapon that counteracts CT's technology. That's only fair.

Remember what I said earlier in the thread? If we let one player pick and choose for himself what is fair and plausible, then we have to let every player decide that for himself.

SF tech explanations are bollocks :P

That's why I hate this furure tech bull crap. 'Just make up anything that sounds good'

I just think that if CT shows up with a sub that can outrun any vessel currently being used by everyone in the thread, not to mention faster than any torpedo or ordinance that may well be able to damage it that it is perfectly reasonable, for the sake of parity, that Midlonia be allowed to use a weapon that counteracts CT's technology. That's only fair.

As soon as he showed up I decided since I was of equivilant tech level to him, that I had torpedoes that could hit him as I already have Mach 10 missiles for atmospheric work. So I can hit him, and I assume the LOW can hit him, and probably Vrak and Alcona can hit him. I also have a slightly lower tech version of the subfighters he is talking about.

Which I was willing to go with CTs submarine.

Realistically, there is no reason a submarine can't be huge, although because of its greater likelihood of being detected there are substantial reasons not to build supertanker sized submarines or even carrier sized submarines. There are also advantages though.

Well, so what's the problem with Midlonia being able to hit him? It already seems like this is a non issue except fot CT ignoring Midlonia's thread?

Well, so what's the problem with Midlonia being able to hit him? It already seems like this is a non issue except fot CT ignoring Midlonia's thread?

I want an explanation on how he can hit CT. If its a beam weapon, than he cannot because of the curvature of the Earth. If its a shell, than the possibility of interception exists. I want to know which it is.

Actually, here is the problem Ilek-Vaad...there are levels of FT and truthfully I don't know why Mildonia just didn't post as firing at say 400 nm (which is still quite a distance)

In the end it is sort of a colletive decision with some apparent dislike from players on both sides.

I do agree with you on the cavitation to a point but C.T. isn't off in la-la land with it (I could give a techinical explination of the major problems with his submarine moving at 1100 mph, he would be generating high pressure steam to move that fast and retain his pocket, effectively you can't avoid the laws of thermodynamics...which state that he would leave a nice line of warm boyant water rising up from path...

Second problem is that effectively he's made is passive sonar system either dead or a major liablity.

But in terms of the story line it really doesn't matter that much...

Yes, I know all the disadvantages of it: DETECTION. But, it's not designed to evade detection, but to travel to an area or leave it quickly.

Wait, what about passive sonar?

IF we are going to accept CT's giant superfast untouchable submarines then I would suggest that CT also has to accept a Midlonian weapon that can target it.

I for one still will not accept CT's subs as given. I also think that it is ludicrous that anyone would complain about Midlonia having a weapon that can taget it. Midlonia has made several posts about moving his assets into position, and he has every right to do so.

For CT to show up with a submarine that can travel at 1100kts that is SIX TIMES the size of a conventional aircraft carrier and then complain about wank is the height of hypocrisy.

IF CT ships are to stay, then I have no problem with other people having the ability to target them.

It is also important to point out that Midlonia only fired his weapon. The damage and casualties are , of course, for CT to decide.

Wait...six times? I don't think so, buddy. A nimitz carrier is 317 meters in length. Mine is 434 meters. That's not six times. That's not even 1.5 times. That's approx. 1.39 times larger. I dunno where you read the other number you got.

And yes, but Midlonia basically said it can't miss. And 2000 nm! No linear gun can do that. It's not the mileage I have a problem with, it's the fact that he's firing through about 1500 nm of ocean to get to me b/c the earth isn't that large. Also, the fact that he made no other approach posts before then and thus gave me no time for me to react before the firing, was not good. What I mean is like a 'we have them on sensors, commencing warm-up procedures.' Even that would have been nice, and I would have allowed him to fire, because that at least gives me a post to say 'there's an unknown ship on sensors, does anyone know who it is? Oh, and BTW, our sattelites show a very big gun and heat signitures rising within. Shiiit run!' type post. I always give an approach post before firing. I thought that it was basic role-play ettiquite. Something Midlonia should know.

And I have no problem with you guys targetting at me, hell the whole klatch was a bit ago. But there's a very different meaning between a targetting post to let someone know, and a firing post. Normally, for cruise missles, only a firing post is needed because it takes time to get there, but for something that moved 99% the speed of LIGHT, there needs to be a targetting post, and then a firing post. Otherwise you give me no way to try and dodge it.

That's my beef with midlonia, not that he fired, but that he did it poorly. He was sailing in the ocean, reaching me in two days, and then all of a sudden, WHAM! he's within firing range, and kicking the shot off. THAT'S my problem with his posting here.

Also, I'd like to hail to an older post that I made saying that I had little intention of using these for anything other than a complimentary escort to the battlefield. The responses from your IC posts and others has necessitated their use furthur, not mine. If I had things as planned, my ships would be at home right now, the sailors probably drunk in a bar for all I care, the rping by me would be of Marines fighting in the Gonad. I didn't WANT to use these ships here for war by basic necessity of the fact that they ARE FT. I told you this beforehand. I also said that I didn't plan on using them at all. Remember that when you rant on them. They may seem God-mod to you, but that's because they are FT. And FT ship I had no intentions of using until you all made me.

Basically, my beef with Midlonia is that he gave me no time to react to his presence there. All I knew is that he was 2 days away; great. that's one and a half days at least from my sensors, or being noted by sattelites. than, he is instantly there. He gave me no chance to slowly become aware ICly of what he was doing, and thus, negated much of my possible defense. Hell, I might have even been able to get the interrogations post-poned because there was a Midlonian ship who was on a mission to kill me, and none of you guys could get through the thick-headed commander that what he was doing was wrong. That might have been an interesting addition to the rp. But Midlonia denied any such rping be instantly becoming two days away and then in firing range, Also, he never responded to my OOC posts, and I was holding off on a response until he did. And Midlonia: It's only a II thread quality if you MAKE it a II thread quality. Being in I does not instantly make it better, and being in II makes it no worse. Maybe you didn't realize that.

Well, Midlonia has RPed more with you guys than I have, so I don't really know his history.

I have big problems with the gun. For one thing, how is it targeted? Now an explanation could be made, but essentially we are talking about a gun that would have to shoot something into LEO to hit something 2,000 nautical miles away, and boy would that light up all of the sensors on the various spacecraft that are over the area at the moment.

Another thing, I don't know what the damage effects are. Its been a long time since I read the Bolo series.

I have a problem with any weapon that cannot either be countered, or has no possibility of missing. Weapons are never perfect.

If he does sink the CT ship, assuming the CT is willing to accept it, or for that matter simply hits it, New Shiron will be really, really pissed if it results in a war with CT. Although its just the kind of thing that happens in the real world and in history. Somebody doesn't get the word, and an incident leads to war.

Of course Midlonia could just as easily hit a Dyelli Byebi ship, since they have a naval squadron right there, practically next to the CT ship.

I guess it kind of bugs me most though is that Midlonia seems to have ignored all of the posts from his own allies. At least some kind of post indicating that he wasn't listening or responding to JDF requests would have been extremely helpful here.


Exactly! That's what I've been saying all along!

Supercavitation forms a gas boundry layer around the object, which is what dramatically reduces drag forces. However, one of the side effects of supercavitation is the reduction of noise transport to and from the object due to this gas layer.
http://www.supercavitation.com/SUPERCAVITATION_-_PROBLEMS_AND_PERSPECTIVES_-_Savchenko.pdf

Of course passive sonar is based on listening to the noise of the ocean over a multi-frequency specturm to try and detect the enemy. Of course this means that a hull based hydrophone is much less effective along with passive sonar detection.

This blanket effect could be countered by laying out a passive sonar array outside the hull, but to be effective it must be outside of the boundrylayer.

Now this brings up two points, one massive shear stresses, and the enitable noise created at the air/water/solid boundry, your going to create bubbles of gas that are not going to be sustainable and collapse, which creates one of the worst noises known to man (stand near a cavitating pump and watch people wince)

Active Sonar can compensate by just increasing the intensity of the ping...
(My guess is that supercavitating torpedo's tend to use active sonar and just attempt to run down their enemy and not be silent at the same time...but I haven't spent the time to find that subject)

You'll note that it is really written as a plus in the article, they ignore the little problem of passive sonar, but then they want the Navy to pay them money for more research. ;)

CT: You stated that you ship has a displacement of 326,000 tons. That is three and a half times the mass of a Nimitz carrier and five to six times the mass of a 'conventional' carrier. The more mass you have the greater the energy required to move it. The Nimitz class requires two reactors to propel it at 30kts. You ship, being barely bigger, but three and a half times heavier would require loads of energy just to get it moving under it's own power, I'm sure the ship can't just start instantly super-cavitating. At your ships length it would have to be nearly all reactor, even if it was fusion powered. Your shorter, stockier yet heavier ship would be pushing tons of water against it just to get underway, once it began cavitating it wouldn't matter as much , but would still require enourmous enery to reach and sustain high speeds. You may know alot about the theory of super-cavitation, but you seem to be ignoring basic physics. IF you are using some sort of tiny reactor that generates unlimited power, that's just as wnky as your subs outrageous speed.


IF Midlonia is using a beam weapon, he could technically use the atmosphere to bend, or even to target the beam at extreme ranges. If he used the beam to create heat that lifts areas of the ionosphere by focusing the beam and heating those areas, it would bend it into a 'lense' to bend the beam*.

Or if say he is using technology like HAARP, he could use the beam to superheat and lift the ionosphere and charge it with electromagnetic waves that could then be bounced back to the earth in a focused destructive beam.

Neither of those theories have ever been tested, but they are theoretically possible. Possible enough that the HAARP technology has been patented.


EDIT: I also see TWO previous posts where Midlonia posted his ships being sent to target your ship.



* not that the Free Republic is currently developing such a system!

JUST TO BE EXTRA CLEAR:

I still think that the technology wanking and explanations are secondary. My main problem is that for some reason it is objectionable for Midlonia to have technology capable of counteracting CT's technology.

Once again I believe that parity moves the RP along much better. I don't care if Midlonia says that magic pixies make his ordinance go ten thousand miles, I just think that since we've allowed CT's technowank that it is absurd and hypocritical to say that Midlonia can't bring out his technowank. In the very beginning of this thread and twice since then I've said that if we allow one, it's hypocritical to not allow the other!

Also, I'd like to hail to an older post that I made saying that I had little intention of using these for anything other than a complimentary escort to the battlefield. The responses from your IC posts and others has necessitated their use furthur, not mine. If I had things as planned, my ships would be at home right now, the sailors probably drunk in a bar for all I care, the rping by me would be of Marines fighting in the Gonad. I didn't WANT to use these ships here for war by basic necessity of the fact that they ARE FT. I told you this beforehand. I also said that I didn't plan on using them at all. Remember that when you rant on them. They may seem God-mod to you, but that's because they are FT. And FT ship I had no intentions of using until you all made me.


Not all rps go according to plan, so this part doesn't score any points with me. Face it, you send a sub larger than an Nimitz aircraft carrier barrelling along at 850+ knots into one of the most paranoid regions in NS. It's really too bad that things didn't go according to your plan but those are the consequences. And you know, it really doesn't bother me at how uber your sub since we (that is the entire Klatch) can counteract it with either other FT nations (I should mention that Liebermonk, Auz, and DGNT are also FT) not to mention that we also have allies that can.

I would like to salvage this rp rather than see it bogged down in wankytech.

Not all rps go according to plan, so this part doesn't score any points with me. Face it, you send a sub larger than an Nimitz aircraft carrier barrelling along at 850+ knots into one of the most paranoid regions in NS. It's really too bad that things didn't go according to your plan but those are the consequences. And you know, it really doesn't bother me at how uber your sub since we (that is the entire Klatch) can counteract it with either other FT nations (I should mention that Liebermonk, Auz, and DGNT are also FT) not to mention that we also have allies that can.

I would like to salvage this rp rather than see it bogged down in wankytech.

That's fine, that's not a problem at all, I'd love to sa;vage the rp.

CT: You stated that you ship has a displacement of 326,000 tons. That is three and a half times the mass of a Nimitz carrier and five to six times the mass of a 'conventional' carrier. The more mass you have the greater the energy required to move it. The Nimitz class requires two reactors to propel it at 30kts. You ship, being barely bigger, but three and a half times heavier would require loads of energy just to get it moving under it's own power, I'm sure the ship can't just start instantly super-cavitating. At your ships length it would have to be nearly all reactor, even if it was fusion powered. Your shorter, stockier yet heavier ship would be pushing tons of water against it just to get underway, once it began cavitating it wouldn't matter as much , but would still require enourmous enery to reach and sustain high speeds. You may know alot about the theory of super-cavitation, but you seem to be ignoring basic physics. IF you are using some sort of tiny reactor that generates unlimited power, that's just as wnky as your subs outrageous speed.


IF Midlonia is using a beam weapon, he could technically use the atmosphere to bend, or even to target the beam at extreme ranges. If he used the beam to create heat that lifts areas of the ionosphere by focusing the beam and heating those areas, it would bend it into a 'lense' to bend the beam*.

Or if say he is using technology like HAARP, he could use the beam to superheat and lift the ionosphere and charge it with electromagnetic waves that could then be bounced back to the earth in a focused destructive beam.

Neither of those theories have ever been tested, but they are theoretically possible. Possible enough that the HAARP technology has been patented.


EDIT: I also see TWO previous posts where Midlonia posted his ships being sent to target your ship.



* not that the Free Republic is currently developing such a system!


Ah.....Displacememt..that's what you meant...
Ok.
Anywho, I've already explained 'crash supercavitating', and if you would like me to spew the force equations out, then I will. However, the ship can move that fast normally, it just needs a few miles of ocean to do it. Crash supercavitation, as I explained earlier, is when the reactor vents some of the auxillary plasma (which is made from glass, so it is not radioactive, and is much cooler than the reactor plasma) in order to vaporize the water around it and create an artificial bubble for approx. 5 seconds until the ship can, riding in this artificial bubble, create its own natural bubble (safely through magnetic coiling of the plasma a safe distance away). But, like I said, I don't do this often as it entails using auxillary plasma and can damage the ship if not pulled off very well.

Midlonia never stated that he was arching it, he said that it was within sight and shot at it, which implies that he used line of sight.

Also, do you have any clue how much energy fusion reactors that are being designed NOW can produce? We're talking about more than one-thousand times the energy than a conventional fission reactor of the same size. A fusion reactor in design now (and sponsored by the un if the bastards would stop bitching about where to make it), which stands without its 20' concrete barrier about fourty feet tall, would be enough to power a third of France. A THIRD! I could, although mine is not this big, actually fir that inside this carrier, and you're saying that there;s not enough power? I'm sorry, but you're wrong on that account. Fusion reaction produces much more energy than even some physicists are willing to believe until they work out the equations themselves. Myself included.*

Also, yes, he did rp them leaving the docks and at 2 days away, but never any closer. I was expecting a just before the shot is fired curtesy post, my justification is above. All I'm asking for is time to react, or the possibility that it misses, hell it might even hit New Shiron forces, I dunno. Or just scare the hell out of me. Midlonia made it seem like it could never, ever miss, which IS godmodding.

EDIT: Oh, and I think he said it was a gigantic bolt of plasma, not a laser beam, but correct me if I'm wrong.

*I'm not actually a physicist, in fact, I hate math, but a major in architecture entails about six years of higher level physics courses, 90% of which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with architecture. bleh.

JUST TO BE EXTRA CLEAR:

I still think that the technology wanking and explanations are secondary. My main problem is that for some reason it is objectionable for Midlonia to have technology capable of counteracting CT's technology.

Once again I believe that parity moves the RP along much better. I don't care if Midlonia says that magic pixies make his ordinance go ten thousand miles, I just think that since we've allowed CT's technowank that it is absurd and hypocritical to say that Midlonia can't bring out his technowank. In the very beginning of this thread and twice since then I've said that if we allow one, it's hypocritical to not allow the other!

Like I said, I have no problem with his technology being able to counter mine. I have a problem with his poor excuse of rping. I mean, God, look at his posts. I'm sorry, Midlonia, but c'mon, I know you can do better. A few rps ago, i might have allowed this, but I've seen far too many rps RUINED by posts like these. I spend all this time working my way into the klatch, and when it finally seems like there might be a way in, Midlonia, in three, disgustingly short posts, ruins it? No, I don't like that. This is turning out just like another rp I was in, except with higher tech. It's happened to me before, and it ruined a thread which was turning into a book practically, and a good one at that, all because 2 noobs who didn't take the time to care came in and starting pulling this kind of shit. And it totally ruined the thread. All I'm asking for is a bit better rping on Midlonia's side, that's all. And, I've asked for his justification and details for over a week now, to which he completely ignore the OOC forum, which also believes me to believe he didn't even take the time to read any of our previous posts before entering it. Which, to me, is totally unacceptable. I'm a very allowing person, but I've just seen it go bad too many times from this, and all things considered, I don't think it's asking too much of Midlonia to go back, actually READ out posts, answer my questions in the OOC thread, and rp a bit better in the IC thread. That's it. It's not some pissy 'I wannt have te most 1337 forces in the area' rant, all I'm asking for is that he actually TRIES, or at least pretends to care at all about this rp.

This engineer has yet to see an Architectural student in a physics class....

Anyway, I am assuming that this hellbore cannon isn't a beam weapon, but generates some sort of dense (and I mean for a gas) ball of plasma.

Really it is sort of hard to Rp the consequences of an attack without a clear understanding of what weapon type is being used here.

But I am going to make a sacrifice play, based on the same principle I did earlier, everyone shooting and no one asking 'hey where is everyone?'

My point on all of this was I don't mind the plausible or the science fiction plausible, I just want some kind of explanation that is internally consistent.

I also want at least acknowledgement from players that events occur in the RP and that they are related to each other

That is my beef with the Midlonian posts.

IV, several of us pretty much decided to grudgingly or less so to accept CTs ship.

CT, Midlonia is a member of the FKC so we have to address the situation internally somehow to keep the peace if nothing else I suppose. I have some problems with your submarine, primarily having to do with this. Assuming you have the power and propulsion system to reach the speeds indicated, and to move the mass, you must also have an extreme reliance on computer controlled guidance and navigation systems. Otherwise, your ship would be running into seamounts and sea floor gradients routinely.

As far as detection goes, I am assuming my ships are using passive sensors relying on mass detection primarily, as they are also the primary sensors needed to detect spacecraft for my space force. Also used are IR imaging and better magnatometers than exist in our current level of technology. Active sensors are sonar.

Passive sonar would be less effective most likely.

Ack! oh, jees, sorry Christopher, only just found this thread.

Well, yeah, ok, sorry, they should be a bit further on.
ye see, with this gun I do or can sort of see you as weeeeeeee dots on the horizon. Mind you, your curvature of the "earth" and My curvature may be different. I personally accept that "NS" is roughly the size of jupiter, so the curvature would be very different than to say, regular earth.
If I had found this bloody thread earlier I would have sorted it out.

But yeah, pretty much in support of everything else, we do have counter-acts and a 850 knots submarine, well, it is kinda FTish, no?

CT:

You mean you want a chance to react to Midlonia's posts? That's funny. Didn't I complain earlier about not being given a chance to react to your posts? When you do it it's okay, but now when Midlonia does it , it's poor RP?

I'm missing something.

Just a note-Fusion reactors have only ever been created in lab experiments and have not been operational for more than a few seconds. No fusion reactor has ever produced any signifigant amount of energy, in lab tests they have only shown signs of fusion. Speculating on how much energy a real fusion reactor would generate is pure speculation.

For parity, Ilek-Vaad's fusion reactors are about twice as efficent as a fission reactor.

Just a note-Fusion reactors have only ever been created in lab experiments and have not been operational for more than a few seconds. No fusion reactor has ever produced any signifigant amount of energy, in lab tests they have only shown signs of fusion. Speculating on how much energy a real fusion reactor would generate is pure speculation.

For parity, Ilek-Vaad's fusion reactors are about twice as efficent as a fission reactor.

Thats very true. We don't have warp drive, jump drive or any other sort of FTL technology either, but a science fiction story is usually hard to pull off if you can't visit alien planets, and that requires technology like that in order to work out story wise.

Technology follows ideas. We didn't have gas warfare, tanks or aircraft at the turn of the last century, but HG Welles wrote all about them, and fairly accurately too.

Er... have I just (amongst a whole lot of other things) seen Ilek-Vaad OOCly defending something done by Midlonia? Well that's a sight to remember! ;)

I'd like to see what the Dyellians have been up to during all this shuffling around of fleets and pointing guns at eachother. Didn't I catch something about piracy early in the thread? So matey, are we a'goin to see some lootin and murderin' soon or whatte? Aargh!

I just call em as I see em.

things are quite.... are the monkeys gathering for a last ditch offensive?

Maybe, but we already got the heck out!

Monkeys win!

Round Two. Fight!

This engineer has yet to see an Architectural student in a physics class....

Anyway, I am assuming that this hellbore cannon isn't a beam weapon, but generates some sort of dense (and I mean for a gas) ball of plasma.

Really it is sort of hard to Rp the consequences of an attack without a clear understanding of what weapon type is being used here.

But I am going to make a sacrifice play, based on the same principle I did earlier, everyone shooting and no one asking 'hey where is everyone?'
HAHA! My internet is back up! You guys have NO idea how much hell it was to go through all of that friggin' tech support :(

Anywho, at ISU it is required for a doctorate in physics, one much have a minimum of four years of upper level physics. Maybe not where you're going, but at Iowa State University, it is. ISU is one of the more old-fashioned (we still learn hand-drafting for christ's sake!) schools.

My point on all of this was I don't mind the plausible or the science fiction plausible, I just want some kind of explanation that is internally consistent.

I also want at least acknowledgement from players that events occur in the RP and that they are related to each other

That is my beef with the Midlonian posts.

IV, several of us pretty much decided to grudgingly or less so to accept CTs ship.

CT, Midlonia is a member of the FKC so we have to address the situation internally somehow to keep the peace if nothing else I suppose. I have some problems with your submarine, primarily having to do with this. Assuming you have the power and propulsion system to reach the speeds indicated, and to move the mass, you must also have an extreme reliance on computer controlled guidance and navigation systems. Otherwise, your ship would be running into seamounts and sea floor gradients routinely.

As far as detection goes, I am assuming my ships are using passive sensors relying on mass detection primarily, as they are also the primary sensors needed to detect spacecraft for my space force. Also used are IR imaging and better magnatometers than exist in our current level of technology. Active sensors are sonar.

Passive sonar would be less effective most likely.


Oh, God yes. AI systems are of very high quality in the Holy Empire; just read the stats on my Marine Corps soldiers' helmets. You see, my high-level tech is primarily in information systems (which is why I know where things are most of the time, but not who is in them, which is why things got so bad her for me in the first place; I didn't know the political climate of the Klatch), targetting systems and ship making knowledge, as you all can see. However, my low-points of tech are most definitly my Marine Corps' offensive capabilities. While they posess excellent armour and comm systems and the like as well as a wide proficiency in many combat situations and weapons, their actual weapons aren't really much of an improvement over MT weapons, if at all, actually.

Ack! oh, jees, sorry Christopher, only just found this thread.

Well, yeah, ok, sorry, they should be a bit further on.
ye see, with this gun I do or can sort of see you as weeeeeeee dots on the horizon. Mind you, your curvature of the "earth" and My curvature may be different. I personally accept that "NS" is roughly the size of jupiter, so the curvature would be very different than to say, regular earth.
If I had found this bloody thread earlier I would have sorted it out.

But yeah, pretty much in support of everything else, we do have counter-acts and a 850 knots submarine, well, it is kinda FTish, no?
Okay, you're forgiven. You are justified on the wank end. I'll change the appropriate posts.
And I did say that my navy is FT, that's why I hadn't planed on using them at all except to deliver troops to the Gonad. But, they've sorta forced me to use them, which I have no problem with, but they have to realize that my ships will be superior to all of theirs' save the other power here with supercavitation, because now they're tangoing with an FT navy, not a PMT Marine Corps.

By being FT you have allowed the release of LOW into this thread if/when needed or any of the other FT nations besides New Shiron (which is modern transitioning to FT actually)

Lighter-than-airships? Do I scent someone who reads Michael Moorecock?

No...unless were thinking of diffrent things. That is positive boyancy airships like Zepplins.

By being FT you have allowed the release of LOW into this thread if/when needed or any of the other FT nations besides New Shiron (which is modern transitioning to FT actually)
LOW? What's that? Like I said, I'm transitioning to FT, I don't quite have all the terminology down yet. Actually, any acronyms you know for FT would be spindiferous for me to know.

No...unless were thinking of diffrent things. That is positive boyancy airships like Zepplins.

Ah no. In the books 'lghter-than airships' was what they named planes when they were first invented.

LOW? What's that? Like I said, I'm transitioning to FT, I don't quite have all the terminology down yet. Actually, any acronyms you know for FT would be spindiferous for me to know.

Future Tech is the only achronym for "FT" that I know of.
Anyhow, FT covers all from uber advanced battleships to space ships floating around. I'm also one the FKC's future tech states but can turn the wank down at times and up at other times.
Anyhow, if you Navy is FT then it's highly likely that we're all allowed to use our space navy's, ultra fast fighter bombers etc etc.

is there any significant armed resistance to the Alconan or New Shironi intervention in the Gonad?

How big a surviving population are we talking about in the newly secured areas

anyone (Alcona, Vrak, Dyelli Byebi especially) willing to guess or make a ruling?