NationStates Jolt Archive


OOC: Help needed designing military...

Lanquassia
25-06-2005, 08:10
Because there is no way I could compete with the majority of you NS warmonger RPers in the simple description of armed forces and their technology. Civilian economic technology I can handle, but military weapons technology is beyond me, so I need help with specifics.

I kinda know what I want to do, so here's the basics:

Unless they have a special exemption, due to physical or mental disability, or already enrolled in a ROTC program through their highschool, all citizens, male or female, must go through mandatory military training - which includes the basics of vehicle operation and the firing of small arms and rifles. The training lasts six months, and is traditionally between highschool and college.

The standing military numbers at about one million, broken down as:

Army: 90%
Navy: 5%
Air Force: 5%

The Army itself is broken down into two main groups, the rotating Regulars which serve five year rotations before going to civilian life, and the Special Forces, which are broken down further:

JOAT (Jack of all Trade): Generic Special Operations, given a basic training in all situations, 70%
Pathfinders: Urban Warfare specialists. Many Pathfinders leave the military to become Police Officers. 10%
Marines: Aquatic and Wilderness specialists. Marines serve on naval vessels, and are also the troops used as the first wave on amphibious assaults. In the future, Marines wll be the troops used for space garrisons. 20%

Some 30,000 of the one million troops in the standing armed forces would be special forces.

Navy:
Currently the navy consists of the Coast Guard and the RLS Imperial City, a light cruiser that is the only armed vessel in the Navy. The Coast Guard's role is pretty much the same as the US's Coast Guard, but is part of the Navy.

Therefore, the Navy is small - although it's going to be upgraded in the near future to maybe a third or second class navy, as opposed to an Omega class navy. It also currently has no troop transports (...help?)

Airforce:
The Lanquassian Air Force consists of two airbases, each with two squadrons of aging cheap nearly obsolete interceptors and many squardons of C-47s (DC-3s) used mainly to transport the various special forces. This needs to be upgraded...

Regular Army Troops:
The Army is primarily Infantry, with some light tanks and engineering battalions. There are some light artillery peices that are late WWII esque, but aside from that, nothing.

Wartime Civil Defense: When the Republic is at war, it calls up the Civil Defense in addition to reactivating portions of the army. Civil Defense troops are civilians who were in the military that take the place of the Regular's garrison and defense duties when the Army must be sent out abroad. These troops don't keep in as much practice as the Regulars, but they've gone through the same training.

Case Omega:

In case the Republic itself is invaded, the Government calls out a Case Omega. In addition to the Civil Defense troops, every Lanquassian citizen is reactivated to the army and armed to the best that the Republic can. This includes women and older children, as well as any training class for the military. Case Omega troops do not move from their regions, as nobody expects them to leave their homes in a Case Omega.

A Case Omega is more of a bluff than an actual tactic, and is only used as a last ditch attempt to get an invader to decide not to invade.

Erm, thoughts, suggestions, HELP? >.< :headbang:
Vastiva
25-06-2005, 08:18
Look for Clan Smoke Jaguar's (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=297064) discussion of economies and militaries for a start. Then The Evil Overlord (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=275828) has an excellent thread on logistical concerns and why "I HAFF 7000000000000000000 SOLJERS OF DOOOOOM!" isn't going to fly anywhere.

Oh, yes, those are clicky links. I'm being nice.
Van Luxemburg
25-06-2005, 08:52
Just a suggestion:
My Army is relying on air support, as I see, you only have a few old interceptors, no Bombers/Multiroles. you should be really working on this, as you already said. most modern armies rely on air support, bombing the place untill they can get in safely (look at Desert Storm), It will make your army possibly stronger and you will have less casualties. I'm also not exactly "home"
in the tactics and army setup, but this were my thoughts.
The Macabees
25-06-2005, 08:58
[OOC: Well, since you're a smaller nation, although it really doesn't matter, regardless of what people say, you might have to focus on a defensive force at first. I would suggest mobilizing no more than sixty thousand or so ground personnel into your military for a peace time enrollment, perhaps a bit more in the reserve, and as Van Luxembourg said, the airforce is actually important.

Naval forces are important, but you may be able to do without them. Possibly, having a small navy could be counter-productive since it would waste resources if it was destroyed outright by a more advance, larger, faster navy.

So yea, I suggest you focus on a small ground defense army, and an equally small air force for defensive purposes. I wouldn't suggest bombers, since that implies offensive operations, but things like ground attack aircraft, interceptors and air superiority fighters are good.

Although it would seem larger forces would be deemed for capable for the succesful defense of a nation I've found that having a smaller core army means it better trained. For example, nations that are half my size field million man armies - my total ground frontline personnel don't exceed 1.2 million [although if you were to include logistics, it would be over 7 million personnel].

Regardless, I like how you're sticking to WWII weapons in the beginning. It shows some level of realism and that you know that you're small and the weapons you have probably aren't that technologically advance. I would take the time to look on the various storefronts on NS such as my own, Isselmere's, Sarzonia's, or Clan Smoke Jaguar's. They're all very good. But when you purchase from them, I suggest you only purchase from one - or at least, from one for each service. In other words, use one storefront for your navy, one for your airforce and one for your army. That way, logistically, everything is the same standard, and it's much easier to keep track of.

Just my two cents.]
Lanquassia
25-06-2005, 09:43
Look for Clan Smoke Jaguar's (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=297064) discussion of economies and militaries for a start. Then The Evil Overlord (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=275828) has an excellent thread on logistical concerns and why "I HAFF 7000000000000000000 SOLJERS OF DOOOOOM!" isn't going to fly anywhere.

Oh, yes, those are clicky links. I'm being nice.

Thank you for being nice ^^

I'm sticking to a logical army. ..okay, semi-logical. A more sane nation would have a smaller standing military than 1/20th of the population, but my Republic is very militaristic, and the military produces stuff in addition to consuming, so that helps defray SOME of the costs. So, no LEET SOJERS OF DOOM MASS ATTACK because I think I can barely arm the forces I have called up for the War Declarers War, much less anything more than that.
Lanquassia
25-06-2005, 09:49
[OOC: Well, since you're a smaller nation, although it really doesn't matter, regardless of what people say, you might have to focus on a defensive force at first. I would suggest mobilizing no more than sixty thousand or so ground personnel into your military for a peace time enrollment, perhaps a bit more in the reserve, and as Van Luxembourg said, the airforce is actually important.

Naval forces are important, but you may be able to do without them. Possibly, having a small navy could be counter-productive since it would waste resources if it was destroyed outright by a more advance, larger, faster navy.

So yea, I suggest you focus on a small ground defense army, and an equally small air force for defensive purposes. I wouldn't suggest bombers, since that implies offensive operations, but things like ground attack aircraft, interceptors and air superiority fighters are good.

Although it would seem larger forces would be deemed for capable for the succesful defense of a nation I've found that having a smaller core army means it better trained. For example, nations that are half my size field million man armies - my total ground frontline personnel don't exceed 1.2 million [although if you were to include logistics, it would be over 7 million personnel].

Regardless, I like how you're sticking to WWII weapons in the beginning. It shows some level of realism and that you know that you're small and the weapons you have probably aren't that technologically advance. I would take the time to look on the various storefronts on NS such as my own, Isselmere's, Sarzonia's, or Clan Smoke Jaguar's. They're all very good. But when you purchase from them, I suggest you only purchase from one - or at least, from one for each service. In other words, use one storefront for your navy, one for your airforce and one for your army. That way, logistically, everything is the same standard, and it's much easier to keep track of.

Just my two cents.]

Thank you for your advice. I'll keep it in mind, but...

Erm.

Heh....

What would you suggest I look for to buy :headbang: To be honest, I know nothing of MT military hardware. Give me three ounces of bolognium and FT, and I could build a frickin spacefleet out of a wire hanger and an egg carton.
Vastiva
25-06-2005, 10:32
If you want a simplistic model, have a look at that CSJ thread I gave you, pick a nation to be alike, and start development along those lines.
Lanquassia
25-06-2005, 10:38
If you want a simplistic model, have a look at that CSJ thread I gave you, pick a nation to be alike, and start development along those lines.

Thanks again, Vastiva.

Still, I feel like :headbang:
Vastiva
25-06-2005, 10:44
Relax, it takes time.

Vastiva's initial military:

8 B-52C bombers, carrying 2 MT nuclear free fall warheads (one each), left over from when NATO abandoned their base here. (Note I said nothing about "pilots")

10,000 "soldiers" (HA!) armed with AK-47s. Mostly conscripts (we instituted a manditory government service program) with a core of ex-military types who had survived the occupation.

14 T-72 Tanks. We had access to lots more, but they didn't run. Or walk. Or limp. These ran. Mostly. And some actually had full crews.


That was it.

As I played, I found allies, I found people who wanted to help, and slowly our military grew to it's current size.
Lanquassia
25-06-2005, 10:54
Relax, it takes time.

Vastiva's initial military:

8 B-52C bombers, carrying 2 MT nuclear free fall warheads (one each), left over from when NATO abandoned their base here. (Note I said nothing about "pilots")

10,000 "soldiers" (HA!) armed with AK-47s. Mostly conscripts (we instituted a manditory government service program) with a core of ex-military types who had survived the occupation.

14 T-72 Tanks. We had access to lots more, but they didn't run. Or walk. Or limp. These ran. Mostly. And some actually had full crews.


That was it.

As I played, I found allies, I found people who wanted to help, and slowly our military grew to it's current size.


Well, here's the reasoning behind me having a very large and relativly well trained and well equiped - for my economic level - army:

The Bari Empire was my NS nation from a long time ago, back in.... I think 02, maybe 03. Then I quit because the server lagged (This was before Jolt)

So, I come back recently because I'm bored. IC situationally, the Bari Empire fell to chaos, and has been in de-facto civil war since, and only recently, after certain people took power and worked together, using a larger and growing army to convince via politics rather than force via war the rest of the nation to join. Carrot, Stick.

AK-47s would, I guess, be the weapons that the Regular troops would be equipped with. I'm guessing that I would be able to produce the regular standard AK-47 or any Real-World varient without someone getting angry for rippage?

And the Republics total tank force: 0 tanks. All destroyed in the decades of chaos, what we had of 'em to begin with. And most of our C-47 (DC-3) fleet was civilian owned until recently, and are mostly leased out to civilians during peacetime anyhow.

Mostly, what I'm worried about are the special forces and their equipment ;_;
The Merchant Guilds
25-06-2005, 11:38
If I could make a suggustion, Vastiva and Mac have given you some good tips about just starting off small and just building up.

Take the time to read the updated first few posts of both threads about the concepts of organising an NS Armed Force. Then have a go at putting together a sort of scratch force...

About Special Forces: Don't worry about them just yet, just get your conventional forces set up before you worry about anything like that. When you do i'd suggust doing the same as you appear to be doing with others.

A more gradual build up of experience etc... perhaps you should get a few RPs down with a few experienced RPers who I am sure would be happy to help (i'd be happy to help out).

If you need a template you can use the one I outlined in my factbook (in my sig.)... but i'd suggust using a Divisional rather than the Legion system I use (15,000 + rather than 5,500-6,000 troops)...

Also, you could get your old nation revived by the Mods if you like.
Lanquassia
25-06-2005, 11:42
If I could make a suggustion, Vastiva and Mac have given you some good tips about just starting off small and just building up.

Take the time to read the updated first few posts of both threads about the concepts of organising an NS Armed Force. Then have a go at putting together a sort of scratch force...

About Special Forces: Don't worry about them just yet, just get your conventional forces set up before you worry about anything like that. When you do i'd suggust doing the same as you appear to be doing with others.

A more gradual build up of experience etc... perhaps you should get a few RPs down with a few experienced RPers who I am sure would be happy to help (i'd be happy to help out).

If you need a template you can use the one I outlined in my factbook (in my sig.)... but i'd suggust using a Divisional rather than the Legion system I use (15,000 + rather than 5,500-6,000 troops)...

Also, you could get your old nation revived by the Mods if you like.

Thanks for the tips, but I'm stuck already going the way I'm going. ;_; Ah well, I'll live.

As for the special forces, I'm going to worry about 'em ;) Now, since nearly every nation has an offensive army that's mechinized, and my army is all land infantry with... erm... jeeps. And not too many of 'em. Trains and railway.. but not much of it because they have to be electric.

....lack of fossil fuels SUCK, yanno?
Vastiva
25-06-2005, 20:57
VALOREC will gladly sell you oil at $20.36 per barrel in return for a long term contract (say, 40 years or so). We sell in lot quantities or by the barrel.

We also give discounts to that low rate in return for allowing business concerns onto your territory.

***

If you had a civil war for so long, it's likely your infrastructure to produce and maintain an army is in shambles (See also: Battletech). How you deal with that sets up your nation.
Omz222
25-06-2005, 21:13
OOC: Not repeating what others has said, it's important to be flexible - i.e. gearing your army for your own standards and policies (i.e. are you an isolationist country, or a small country seeking some roles on the international stage?), your own requirements, your own doctrine, and quite importantly, the geography of your nation. I see a lot of people building up conscript armies for defensive purposes, but it is also true that a smaller, but more mobile mechanized force (i.e. with tanks and mechanized infantry instead of infantry on foot) also gives you a great ground combat capability. For that role, I wouldn't recommend anything too extravagant or anything like that. Judging your nation, I can recommend building up some small brigades (maybe one or two) of light infantry (numbering up to ~6000-8000) and maybe also an armoured brigade (around 100-200 armoured vehicles, including tanks and IFVs). For equipment, nothing too fancy. Something based on the AK-47/AKM design should do it for a standard rifle, and you might also want to look at upgraded WWII tanks (for example, upgraded T-34s is an excellent example).

For air force, you should have a force that is capable of a) defending your own airspace, and b) supporting your grould forces by countering enemy air and ground assets. I would recommend a small, but professional airforce with a small number of combat aircraft, along with other aircraft such as AWACS, refuelers, and cargo. Forget about strategic bombers if you want a relatively decent air force, as unless you get somewhat bigger with a good economy, you won't quite need that strategic operations capabiltiy. Keep the aircraft simple as well. Maybe some upgraded Soviet fighters (upgraded MiG-19s and MiG-21s are good) for air superiority, and something like the Su-17 or Su-25 for ground attack.

For navy, repeat the same except for the fact that for a small nation, you should invest in littoral warfare. This means deploying a small but decent fleet of small surface vessels, submarines, and aircraft. At the most extreme, maybe a light carrier, a few cruisers and destroyers, and some more frigates and corvettes. Submarine shouldn't be nuclear unless you absolutely want long-range operation capabilities.
Vastiva
25-06-2005, 21:32
Here's a somewhat dated example, as it's what we became:

Country: The Sultanate of Vastiva
Population: 1.98 billion
GDP: $226.8 trillion
GDP Per Capita: $42,146.87
Active Military: 13,860,000
Portion of Population: 0.7%
Military Spending: $11.6 trillion
Portion of GDP: 5.1%
Spending Per Active Soldier: $839,160.30
Military Nature: Defensive
Infrastructure: Excellent
Logistics Support: Excellent
Experience: Low
Training: Good
Equipment: Excellent

Of note: Vastiva's Navy concentrates on submarines for international operations, using only a small number of huge fleets for these operations as needed. These fleets base out of NATO ports, or from allied ports, or from treaty naval bases. This makes Vastiva's international protocol "reach out and slap someone" - when Vastiva vanguards action (which has often been the case), it's naval forces are intended as initial skirmishers before her larger allies fleets can arrive and are arrayed as such.

When a larger fleet is required, they are given free reign of response.

As a result of these decisions, Vastiva is heavy on "escort" vessels (destroyers, frigates) and lighter on capital ships, possessing eight battleships in total - three of the older Guillen-class and five Fafin-class. A typical fleet will show ratios of 1:6 to 1:10 - higher has existed.

Vastiva's coastal naval strategy focuses not around the larger vessels, but smaller ships using native camoflague to cause more damage. This results in a lower cost defense, more cost effective in the long run, though again the maintenance costs are larger because of the larger number of vessels overall.

They operate no SuperDrednaughts, and consider the appearance of these vessels in their waters as an "Act of War with WMDs".


ALL of Vastiva's infantry is mechanized due to climate considerations. This results in a much higher maintenance and fuel cost, but much higher maneuverability and available firepower per unit and gives higher NBC protection to all units (adding NBC protection to vehicles is SOP).

Vastiva operates approximately 150% to 200% of the artillery of other nations, using both SPA and towed. It can afford horrendous numbers of shells to be thrown at the enemy, and does so with abandon. It considers soldiers less expendable then shells. It also has no compunctions about using it's ACRATHERM-II weaponry (vaporous thermate) on targets to achieve its goals. This goes with the Vastivan theory of "shells are cheap, men are expensive", which also explains why crew safety and survivability is a high priority in designs.


As yet, Vastiva's victories (flawless record) have fit into one of two categories. The first is the "overwhelming punch in the mouth", the second is "mobile warfare".


OOC: Vastiva could better be compared to the Austrailian Army then the US Army in basic psychology of warfare.
Vastiva
27-06-2005, 02:27
We suggest going -> Here <- (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=334378&page=1&pp=15) for your military needs.

And tell them Vastiva sent you. :D