NationStates Jolt Archive


The Return of the Galleon - Argentine class

The Macabees
25-06-2005, 04:17
[OOC: As for criticism, it's very welcomed. However, please do not critisize about the ability of the ship to do its job. That piece of information will dawn upon all of us when we first see the Argentine in combat. Any arguments would revolve around conceptions and naval doctrine, so please don't flare them.]

For other Kriegzimmer products check our catalogue (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409787).

[Argentine class Galleon]

[OOC: Image coming soon! Yes, I'm going to try my hand at line art!]

[Currently in Service in the Following Navies]
The Golden Throne [5]
SafeHaven2 [10]
Halberdgardia [3][Designation: Allegiance-class Hunter-Killer Dreadnoughts]
Samtonia [8][Designation: Allegiance-class Hunter-Killer Dreadnoughts]
Fluffywuffy [10]
Kazaki [10]
Generic Empire [5]
Omz222 [5] [Designation: Swordshield class BGAN]
Freudotopia [10]
The Silver Sky [4] [Designation: Thunder class Super Dreadnought Hunter/Killer]
Uldarious [1]
Lesser Ribena [5]
Khiraebanaa [4]

[Project Background]
Since the advent of the Super Dreadnought, navies around the world have attempted to design the response to the said ship, consequently creating kinetic penetrating missiles, deck attack missiles and the such. However, the fact remains that missile warfare has been lashed as a rather banal style of naval warfare, and that, especially with surface to air defenses, missiles will not give the results sought by so many.

Consequently, SafeHaven2 and The Macabees thought of the idea of a Super Dreadnought killing ship. Fortunately, the same idea was shared by Samtonia. However, the three nation project began to lag, and finally, the Golden Throne decided to complete the venture itself.

Nonetheless, although the tertiary layer was designed mostly by the Golden Throne, after that designed for the Zealous class Super Dreadnought, the rest of the design was done largely by Samtonia - indeed, the credit must go to him. The original armor design was child's play compared to the layering committed to by Samtonia's engineers.

The Galleon, which was a designation given to it by the Kriegsmarine due to the general lack of term for the type of ship, was based on the idea that if the Super Dreadnought lost its hangars, it's missile stocks and other extranous weaponry, it could base its ordnance solely on numerous, and large, naval guns. Consequently, it would engage enemy shipping with its naval guns, with a range that could exceed some anti-shipping missiles, effectively, and with a greater percentage of success. However, the same ship would be required to be escorted by one or more escort ships, or the Paramount class Air Defense Vessel [ADV], who's statistics could be found elsewhere, because of the general lack of defenses on the Argentine.

The Kriegsmarine has already ordered five Argentine class Galleons for its own use, however, this order is not expected to increase any time soon.

[Hull Construction and Armor]
The primary layer is designed to act as a layer for the ERA to sit on, and is a much lighter layer of armor. It's basically a revamped, and slightly different, CHOBHAM composite, formulated from steel, titaniun, ceramics and depleted uranium. However, it's much lighter than the tertiary layer of armor on the Galleon, although somewhat heavier than that found on a standard main battle tank. It's designed to take on light shells and light missiles, as well as light cannon fire, in the face of a possible design failure in the Kontack-5 ERA.

The secondary layer in the armor scheme is known as the SHMS armored scheme. The overriding compound used in the Argentine’s tertiary armor layer is steel, however, in order to reduce the effects of sulfur in steel, the steel is also laced with Manganese fibers. Manganese is a rather common element used extensively in steel manufacture. It is only mildly chemically active, but it has a great affinity for Sulfur, which it combines readily with, and it thus can be used to eliminate Sulfur from steel or to reduce the effects of any remaining Sulfur by chemically combining with it, which is important since Sulfur softens steel and is not desired in any construction or armor steel that I am familiar with, though it is used in many steels needing to be soft for ease of machining, as on a lathe (Phosphorus has a similar effect on increasing machineability and it can harden steel, but it raises the temperature where brittle failure sets in, so it is also reduced to a minimum in naval construction and armor steels, allowing Manganese to lower this temperature, as mentioned previously). It also acts to increase the hardenability of low-Carbon steel much better than Silicon (see above) does, but does not help keep the hardened metal hard during tempering as Silicon does, which is one of the major reasons that it and Silicon are used together as a team. Usually used in amounts of about 0.4% by weight in armor steels containing other hardeners such as Chromium, it is used in amounts of 0.6-1.1% (depending on plate thickness) in Mild/Medium Steels used for construction and up to 1.3% in high-strength construction steels, such as HTS and "D"-Steel.

Teamed up with Manganese are silicone fibers. Silicon is the next most widely used element with Iron after Carbon, found in almost all Iron materials used as armor or construction material. It is very plentiful, making up most of quartz beach sand, it is used by some microscopic plants and animals to build their protective shells, and it is used by people to make such things as glass and, more recently, micro-electronic circuits. It is relatively chemically inert, though it will chemically combine with Oxygen to form a very inert thin protective film that prevents any further reactions, and usually it is a good heat and electric insulator.

Third, Vanadium composites are woven around the steel compound in order to further strengthen the armor composite. Vanadium is a hardening alloy element in steel that is much stronger in its effects than either Chromium or Molybdenum (see above). Resists "metal fatigue" from repeated loading below the nominal yield strength, which can cause the metal to gradually stretch out of shape ("creep"), so it is widely used in springs in small amounts.

Fourth, titanium and depleted uranium threads are interwoven with the rest of the composite, adding final layers of strength. The titanium also works along with a polymer composite material in order to reduce the magnetic signature of the ship – although, this is not a primary goal of the armor. With the inclusion of titanium, depleted uranium, vanadium, manganese and silicone the actual rolled homogenous armor readings are much higher than what they are, especially since the entire armor scheme is laced around a polymer matrix, multiplying RHA strength even more!

The third layer is composed of a heat absorbing panelling. Composed of both aerogel compounds and a carbon-phenolic heat shield compound, this layer is capable of resisting temperatures above 4000 degrees Celsius. This layer is designed to both prevent any heat damage from warping the main armor layers and to stop any thermite based weapons from cutting through successive layers of armor.

Aerogels are advanced materials yet also are literally next to nothing. They consist of more than 96 percent air. The remaining four percent is a wispy matrix of silica (silicon dioxide), a principal raw material for glass. Aerogels, consequently, are one of the lightest weight solids ever conceived.

Made of inexpensive silica, aerogels can be fabricated in slabs, pellets, or most any shape desirable and have a range of potential uses. By mass or by volume, silica aerogels are the best solid insulator ever discovered. Aerogels transmit heat only one hundredth as well as normal density glass. Sandwiched between two layers of glass, transparent compositions of aerogels make possible double-pane windows with high thermal resistance. Aerogels alone, however, could not be used as windows because the foam-like material easily crumbles into powder. Even if they were not pulverized by the impact of a bird, after the first rain they would turn to sludge and ooze down the side of the house.

Aerogels are a more efficient, lighter-weight, and less bulky form of insulation than the polyurethane foam currently used to insulate refrigerators, refrigerated vehicles, and containers. And, they have another critical advantage over foam. Foams are blown into refrigerator walls by chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) propellants, the chemical that is the chief cause of the depletion of the earth's stratospheric ozone layer. The ozone layer shields life on Earth from ultraviolet light, a cause of human skin cancer. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, 4.5 to 5 percent of the ozone shield over the United States was depleted over the last decade. Based on the current levels of ultraviolet exposure, the agency projects that more than 12 million Americans will develop skin cancer and more than 200,000 will die of the disease over the next 50 years.

Replacing chlorofluorocarbon-propelled refrigerant foams with aerogels could help reduce this toll. Exchanging refrigerant foams with aerogels reportedly would reduce CFC emissions in the U.S. by 16 million pounds per year.

Aside from their insulating properties, aerogels have other promising characteristics. Sound is impeded in its passage through an aerogel, slowed to a speed of 100 to 300 meters per second. This could be exploited in a number of ways, as for example, improving the accuracy and reducing the energy demand of the ultrasonic devices used to gauge distances in autofocus cameras and robotic systems. A layer of aerogel on a camera's ceramic piezoelectric transducer could considerably improve the efficiency with which it generates ultrasonic waves.

Aerogels also have a number of novel applications. Currently, they are components of Cerenkov radiation detectors used in high- energy physics research at CERN near Geneva, Switzerland. Another scientific application currently under consideration involves utilizing aerogels in space like a soft, spongy net to capture fast-moving micrometeroids without damaging them.

The fourth layer is an armored composite layer. A combination composite armor/kinetic absorbing rods layer, this entire layer is comprised of the main armor composite material with staggered lateral armored rods driven through it. The dissipation of energy provided by the rods and their warping of any kinetic projectiles to a degree any penetrative powers are lost provides the most protection against kinetic weapons of any armor level in the ship. If a KE weapon were to hit, it would follow the path of least resistance around the armored rods. The path given would cause it to slip around multiple rods, soon twisting the penetrator into a shape not capable of penetrating any further- generally a Z shape. This concept was taken and expanded upon from the Doujin class Super Dreadnought, which is currently employed by Samtonia.

The fifth layer is another heat absorbant panel. A second and last ditch heat shielding layer. Composed of both aerogel compounds and a carbon-phenolic heat shield compound, this layer is capable of resisting temperatures above 4000 degrees Celsius. This layer is designed to both prevent any heat damage from warping the honey-comb rods below it and to stop any thermite based weapons from cutting through the armor any more.

The sixth layer of the armor is a blast space. Designed to channel explosive force and gases away from essential areas and out of the ship. It is designed to lessen the impact of delayed fused weapons, with any explosion harmlessly damaging non-essential locker storage areas and storage tanks. While the ninth layer has been rated as a highly effective shrapnel absorbing layer. Lining the outsides of all bulkheads, this armor layer is designed to stop any shrapnel from breaking through and damaging essential equipment or personnel. It also acts as a light armor in the event a projectile makes it that far through the ship.

The bulkheads are made of same composite as the Kinetic Absorbing Layer in order to combine flexibility, weight and performance together. These bulkheads are designed to allow explosions to vent their way outside the ship while protecting the interiors of the ship.

The final honeycomb framework literally holds the ship up and together. A network of armored and reeinforced rods, supporting beams, and a unique (well, not for NS) "honeycomb" design that provides a sound support, both structurally and integrally, for the rest of the ship. This portion of the ship is the most time intensive to build, with this framework actually built around the keel before any of the rest of the ship is laid across its skeleton. Though this step contributes to much of the slow building time, it allows the ship to both absorb damage far above the amounts its RHA values would suggest and give it the support necessary to handle the wegiht of the armor scheme and araments.

Finally, the framework connectors connect the framework, armor, and bulkheads together. It has been rated as very strong, they prevent the ship's interior from warping or cracking when strained.

The main armor is designed around an original catamaran design, however, the overall ship is forged through a trimaran hull design. The outer hull, consequently, is armored with a main belt of one thousand millimeters [1,000mm - 39.370079 in.]. According to British sources, trimarans are more resistant to damage; far more resistant. One missile or torpedo will usually disable a modern cruiser, destroyer, or frigate. However, a well-designed trimaran warship can withstand a dozen hits and keep fighting.

The belt armor has a literal reading of one thousand two hundred and seventy millimeters [1,370mm – 53 in.], while the turret faceplates yield one thousand three hundred millimeters [1,437mm - 58 in.]. The main turrets boast an armored reading of one thousand millimeters [1,050mm - 41 in.] while the secondary turrets yield nine hundred millimeters [980mm - 39 in.] and the deck armor is layered with eight hundred and fifty millimeters [870mm - 34 in.]. The superstructure yields another eight hundred and fifty millimeters [850mm - 33.464567 in.], while the bulkheads have nine hundred and fifty millimeters worth of the composite armor [950mm - 37.401575 in.]. Actual RHA readings are much, much higher than this – although, they are either extremely classified, or truthfully unknown.

[Armament]
The Argentine class Galleon is armed with eight triple mounts of twenty-five [25] inch ETC guns. There are four mounts on each half of the ship, giving the ship a total of twenty-four twenty-five inch guns. Secondary guns include two quadruple mounts of eighteen [18] inch ETC guns, both mounted at the front of the ship, stacked. Near the center of the ship there are four double mounts of twelve [12] inch rail guns.

The ship is mainly to be stocked with the newer rail gun depleted uranium SABOT rounds.

http://www.rit.edu/~dih0658/images/railsabot.gif

For more direct combat, there are four double mounts of twelve inch ETC guns. Electrothermal-Chemical (ETC) technology is an advanced gun propulsion candidate that can substantially increase gun performance with less system burden than any other advanced gun propulsion technology. It has been under development since the mid-1980s.

ETC uses electrical energy to augment and control the release of chemical energy from existing or new propellants, and can significantly improve the performance of existing conventional cannons, both direct fire and indirect fire. The electrical energy is used to create a high-temperature plasma, which in turn both ignites the propellants and controls the release of the chemical energy stored in the propellants during the ballistic cycle.

All, ETC guns are fitted with electro-magnetic (EM) rifleling, giving it a much faster propulsion, although not as expensive and "iffy" as rail guns.

The Argentine class Galleon also has twelve of the brand new Conhort Close-in Weapons Systems. The Conhort uses a variant of the GAU-8 Avenger cannon. The GAU-8 itself weighs 281 kg (620 lb), but the complete weapon, with feed system and drum, weighs 4,029 lb (1,830 kg) with a maximum ammunition load. The entire system is 19 ft 10.5 in (5.05 m) long. The magazine can hold 1,350 rounds, although 1,174 is the more normal load-out. Muzzle velocity with armor-piercing incendiary (API) ammunition is 3,250 ft/s (988 m/s), almost the same as the substantially lighter M61 Vulcan.

The Conhort's system consists of an autocannon and an advanced radar which tracks incoming fire, determines its trajectory, then aims the gun and fires in a matter of seconds. The system is fully automatic, needing no human input once activated. The kinetic energy of the 30mm rounds is sufficient to destroy any missile or shell. The system can also be deployed to protect airfields. However, like the Dutch Goalkeeper and the American Phalanx the Conhort is a last-chance weapon, although considerably accurate. It uses a seperate, smaller, LIDAR Gaussian Transmitter and RADAR tranmitter in order to lock on potential targets and blow them out of the air. Several advantages the Cohort has over the Phalanx system are that it is more accurate, it has a greater kenitic energy impact, more tracking, it's reloaded under the deck, and it can operate under three modes: Auto, Semi-Auto and Manual allowing full operator operability.

Finally, the Argentine class Galleon is defended under the waterline by a series of twelve ASHUM guns. The ASHUM guns consists of extremely rapid, and extremely accurate, fire, guided by SONAR and blue-green LIDAR, using depleted uranium bullets and an elastomer propellant. In past operations, the ASHUM guns, coupled with the MAT-1 anti-torpedoes fired from ASROC cannons, have proved to be valuable to defend the lifeline of the ship.

[Sensor Electronics]
The Argentine has an onboard SONAR array, capable of searching through the mixed layer. However, for under the layer searches it also has the TB-2016, used in the Macabee Leviathan class SSN, which is rolled from a seperate compartment, and is long enough to sit right on the deep sound channel axis, giving the SONAR a full read, leaving no shadow zone. The power of the Macabee SONAR systems has been applauded before, and the Elusive is a testament to it.

The Argentine is also given the same SONAR system which the Rommel was equipped with. The Poseidon SONAR system, which is capable of detecting louder shipping at up to one hundred kilometers away at the right circumstances, and advanced submarines at a maximum range of ten kilometers, burning through anechoic tiling quite easily. The Poseidon is considered one of the better SONAR systems used presently. The Poseidon is also programmed to detect the “black hole” effect which submarines using MHD have; making it easier to detect MHD propelled submarines.

The Argentine also has a new thin line towed array called the TB-163, which is three times as long as the Argentine itself, using thousands of hydrophones to detect submarine presence at up to forty kilometers away (ca. 28 miles). The TB-163 uses a strong steel line to ensure that it doesn’t snap, although this could be potentially dangerous to the crew if its used stupidly. The Zealous also has another towed array called the TB-87 which focuses on shorter distances, using powerful hydrophones to detect close enemies.

Macabee ships use the MRT-1 RADAR system to detect enemy aerial assets anywhere from 120 kilometers minimum to 700 kilometers maximum; depending on the circumstances, stealth levels, and altitude. The MRT-1 use a very powerful super computer and several screens to detect, filter, and portray enemy aerial assets. Based of the TENEX SPY-6 this well built system is, again, one of the better ones in use around the world, and provide the Macabees with a reliable early warning system.

Additionally, Macabee ships integrate the MRT-4 Surface Search RADAR system which was built to focus on sea-skimmers. RADAR radio waves are able to catch both missiles and other objects, such as waves, and filter what is a wave, and what is a missile; and quite easily, and through regular technology. Simply, by using a supercomputer and C based program, the computers can detect range, vector, and velocity – hence, it can distinguish what is a missile or aircraft, and what isn’t. A wave doesn’t last at the same altitude, velocity and vector for ever – the wave falls short quite quickly – while a missile lasts in the air for quite a while (of course). Hence, it wasn’t too difficult to design a system capable of picking sea-skimmers up. The range of the MRT-4, however, is considerably shorter, about a hundred nautical miles.

Finally, the Macabee ships include an MLT-1 LIDAR system which as a range of about 250 kilometers (165 miles). The MLT-1 uses regular LIDAR to detect range, Doppler LIDAR to detect velocity, and DIAL LIDAR to detect chemical composition. The newer Gaussian LIDAR system used by Macabee ships has two charged plates placed parallel to each other, one charged negative, the other positive. This in turn begins an electrical current. The Gaussian system doesn't work on reflected waves. Instead, it relies on electrical impulses, rendering current anti-LIDAR techniques inefficient and obsolete.

The Argentine is also equipped with a SODAR array. Sodar (sonic detection and ranging) systems are used to remotely measure the vertical turbulence structure and the wind profile of the lower layer of the atmosphere. Sodar systems are like radar (radio detection and ranging) systems except that sound waves rather than radio waves are used for detection. Other names used for sodar systems include sounder, echosounder and acoustic radar. A more familiar related term may be sonar, which stands for sound navigation ranging. Sonar systems detect the presence and location of objects submerged in water (e.g., submarines) by means of sonic waves reflected back to the source. Sodar systems are similar except the medium is air instead of water and reflection is due to the scattering of sound by atmospheric turbulence.

Most sodar systems operate by issuing an acoustic pulse and then listen for the return signal for a short period of time. Generally, both the intensity and the Doppler (frequency) shift of the return signal are analyzed to determine the wind speed, wind direction and turbulent character of the atmosphere.

[EMP Hardening]
There are two things to consider when considering hardening targets against EMP. The first question to answer is whether the hardened system will become useless if shielded. The second question to be answered is whether the target is economically worthwhile to harden. The answers to these two questions are used to determine what devices should be shielded

To explain the first consideration, Makoff and Tsipis give the following simple example. If there was a communication plane with many antennas used to collect and transfer data, it would not be useful if its antennas were removed. However, to harden the plane, the antennas would need to be removed because they provide a direct path to the interior of the plane. It is important to understand how the hardening will affect the performance of the hardened item.

The second consideration is very easy to understand. Some systems, although important, may not seem worthwhile enough to harden due to the high costs of shielding. "It may cost from 30% to 50% of the cost of a ground based communication center…just to refit it to withstand EMP," and, "as high as 10% of the cost for each plane."

There are two basic ways to harden items against EMP effects.20 The first method is metallic shielding. The alternative is tailored hardening. Both methods will be briefly described.

Metallic shielding is used to, "Exclude energy propagated through fields in space." Shields are made of a continuous piece of some metal such as steel or copper. A metal enclosure generally does not fully shield the interior because of the small holes that are likely to exist. Therefore, this type of shielding often contains additional elements to create the barrier. Commonly, only a fraction of a millimeter of a metal is needed to supply adequate protection. This shield must completely surround the item to be shielded. A tight box must be formed to create the shield. The cost of such shielding (in1986 dollars) is $1000 per square meter for a welded-steel shield after installation.

The alternative method, tailored hardening, is a more cost-effective way of hardening. In this method, only the most vulnerable elements and circuits are redesigned to be more rugged. The more rugged elements will be able to withstand much higher currents. However, a committee of the National Academy of Sciences is skeptical of this method due to unpredictable failures in testing. Also, the use of this method is not recommended by the National Research Council. They doubted whether the approximations made to evaluate susceptibilities of the components were accurate. They did concede that tailored hardening may be useful to make existing systems less vulnerable.

[Propulsion]
The Argentine class Super Dreadnought is driven by ten Baldur pebble bed nuclear reactors. The Pebble Bed Modular Reactor (PBMR) is a new type of high temperature helium gas-cooled nuclear reactor, which builds and advances on world-wide nuclear operators' experience of older reactor designs. The most remarkable feature of these reactors is that they use attributes inherent in and natural to the processes of nuclear energy generation to enhance safety features. More importantly, it is also a practical and cost-effective solution to most of the logistics of generating electricity.

http://www.eskom.co.za/nuclear_energy/pebble_bed/image1_2.gif

To protect the reactor there are several infra-red detection devices around the uranium core, and at a note from a pressure sensor, either made by water or a man made collision, the Baldur nuclear reactor is automatically shut off, save for the coolant flow.

http://www.eskom.co.za/nuclear_energy/pebble_bed/coated_part.gif

The nature of the chain reaction that takes place in the PBMR is exactly the same as the one that takes place at Koeberg. (Refer to Koeberg experience - Fuel )

The fuel used in a PBMR consists of "spheres" which are designed in such a way that they contain their radioactivity. The PBMR fuel is based on proven high quality fuel used in Germany.

Each sphere is about the size of a tennis ball and consists of an outer graphite matrix (covering) and an inner fuel zone The fuel zone of a single sphere can contain up to 15 000 "particles". Each particle is coated with a special barrier coating, which ensures that radioactivity is kept locked inside the particle. One of the barriers,the silicon carbide barrier, is so dense that no gaseous or metallic radioactive products can escape. (it retains its density up to temperatures of over 1 700 degrees Celsius). The reactor is loaded with over 440 000 spheres - three quarters of which are fuel spheres and one quarter graphite spheres - at any one time. Fuel spheres are continually being added to the core from the top and removed from the bottom. The removed spheres are measured to see if all the uranium has been used. If it has, the sphere is sent to the spent fuel storage system, and if not, it is reloaded in the core. An average fuel sphere will pass through the core about 10 times before being discharged. the graphite spheres are always re-used. The graphite spheres are used as a moderator. They absorb and reduce the energy of the neutrons so that these can reach the right energy level needed to sustain the chain reaction.

The Baldur nuclear reactors are hooked up to a conducting system, which in turn power a series of Louis-Alice Power Supplies, which then go through a series of thousands of capacitors, and then again through another motor-generator, and finally to their respective water jets and maneuvering pods. There are eight water jets on the outer hulls, and four in the inner hulls. The Argentine class galleon also boasts six maneuvering jets, three on each side.

There are also two, smaller, back-up nuclear reactors in case of failure of the ten Baldur pebbledbed nuclear reactors. The two back-ups, albeit smaller, follow the same technological procedure as the main reactors.

[Crew]
The Argentine’s naval crew complement consists of seven thousand two hundred and thirty-six non-officers, NCOs, junior officers and general officers.

Just as important, however, is the fact that each Argentine class Galleon can carry up to ten thousand infantry, and also holds six hovercraft landing craft for amphibious operations – although all of this is only included in case of a planned amphibious operation.

[Other Statistics]
[Maximum Velocity:] 30 Knots
[Length:] 680 Meters
[Width:] 136 Meters
[Draught:] 13.6 Meters
[Displacement:] 1,500,000 Tonnes fully loaded

[Cost:]
130 Billion USD


-------------

Here's the link to the Paramount class ADV (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9142148&postcount=299), which is the much needed air defense support vessel that goes hand in hand with the Argentine. Please order the ADV at the Kriegzimmer Storefront, thank you.
Izistan
25-06-2005, 04:29
OOC: Wow, that is one ship I wouldn't want my hypothetical SD to meet. Would it be possible to use guided projectiles with the rail guns (hardened against the acceleration and turned on after leaving the barrel with a accelerometer/timer, though this might be better suited to coil guns)?
The Macabees
25-06-2005, 04:35
OOC: Wow, that is one ship I wouldn't want my hypothetical SD to meet. Would it be possible to use guided projectiles with the rail guns (hardened against the acceleration and turned on after leaving the barrel with a accelerometer/timer, though this might be better suited to coil guns)?


[OOC: I'm not completely sure, but the Meghlev [sp?] train in Japan could be considered something larger, and less likely to be fired out of a rail gun. Nonetheless, it uses rail technology to propel itself as the fastest train on the face of the Earth.

So, I'm guessing that if you design a missile frame that incorporates more or less the same design as the SABOT. As in, you have the missile, and then enshroud that in a little sleeve where it would have the six or more rail contacts, then you would be able to fire it out of the gun.

But I'm not completely sure.]
HailandKill
25-06-2005, 04:43
[OOC: I'm not completely sure, but the Meghlev [sp?] train in Japan could be considered something larger, and less likely to be fired out of a rail gun. Nonetheless, it uses rail technology to propel itself as the fastest train on the face of the Earth.

So, I'm guessing that if you design a missile frame that incorporates more or less the same design as the SABOT. As in, you have the missile, and then enshroud that in a little sleeve where it would have the six or more rail contacts, then you would be able to fire it out of the gun.

But I'm not completely sure.]

I would think thats do-able, as long as the electric charge, or magnetics rails, do not interfere with the actual missile, or screw with the internals and stuff.
This thing destroys SDs buy punching huge holes in them with the rail gun? Also, how does this beast fare in other types of ship to ship combat?
The Macabees
25-06-2005, 04:46
I would think thats do-able, as long as the electric charge, or magnetics rails, do not interfere with the actual missile, or screw with the internals and stuff.
This thing destroys SDs buy punching huge holes in them with the rail gun? Also, how does this beast fare in other types of ship to ship combat?

[OOC: Well, that would be the idea. A missile doesn't work well because it distributes the pressure to widely along a surface area in order to penetrate dreadnought, or super dreadnought, armor. However, a kinetic energy weapon should work a bit better, although it returns warfare to the Jutland.

I would suspect that this thing would be optimal to take out any ship out of the water. If it can destroy a Super Dreadnought, it can destroy anything else.]
Safehaven2
25-06-2005, 05:26
OOC:Its...wonderfull. I'll post tommorrow on how many my navy will be building. The Argentine, nice choice on a name.
Novikov
25-06-2005, 05:46
I would suspect that this thing would be optimal to take out any ship out of the water. If it can destroy a Super Dreadnought, it can destroy anything else.

ASW capabilities must be limited, to say the least, however. Plus gun-traverse time may make things difficult for hitting smaller, quickly-moving targets.
HailandKill
25-06-2005, 06:08
ASW capabilities must be limited, to say the least, however. Plus gun-traverse time may make things difficult for hitting smaller, quickly-moving targets.

Isnt that the reason you have support ships? A ship this size may have problems hitting faster ships, but your destroyers can take care of those things while this baby knocks out SDs and large battleships....

I will order at a later time but i have a question Mac, since this technically would be a product of you storefront would i confirm orders on this thread as well as on the SF one? Same thing applies for the tank.....

Oh and last thing for the night: with all the threads on El Caudillo and such i got confused with the events, whose facing whom and such. Can you TG me with the important things i need to know to accurately fight in the war?

Well, EST gets to me so im off, later everyone.
Lanquassia
25-06-2005, 07:40
The Republic of Lanquassia would be interested in the price for the schematics of the Argentine class Galleon SD killer.

The war with War Declarers taught us that a strong navy is neccesary, and that the Republic is lacking.
The Macabees
25-06-2005, 07:45
Isnt that the reason you have support ships? A ship this size may have problems hitting faster ships, but your destroyers can take care of those things while this baby knocks out SDs and large battleships....

I will order at a later time but i have a question Mac, since this technically would be a product of you storefront would i confirm orders on this thread as well as on the SF one? Same thing applies for the tank.....

Oh and last thing for the night: with all the threads on El Caudillo and such i got confused with the events, whose facing whom and such. Can you TG me with the important things i need to know to accurately fight in the war?

Well, EST gets to me so im off, later everyone.


Well, actually, Novikov has a point. I wouldn't want to see this alone against a submarine, and so, I'll probably edit it information for ASROC defenses, so that I can have nominal defenses against submerged threats.

On storefronts, I'll confirm on the individual threads, and you'll get the storefront until August 20th. On July 4th I'll close the individual threads.

I'll TG you about Caudillo tomorrow. Watching Hide and Seek right now.
The Macabees
25-06-2005, 07:46
The Republic of Lanquassia would be interested in the price for the schematics of the Argentine class Galleon SD killer.

The war with War Declarers taught us that a strong navy is neccesary, and that the Republic is lacking.

[OOC: I'll have to talk to Samtonia and SafeHaven2 about that. I think that we wont give schematics out, for the time being.]
Lanquassia
25-06-2005, 08:15
[OOC: I'll have to talk to Samtonia and SafeHaven2 about that. I think that we wont give schematics out, for the time being.]

OOC: Well, if you want to outsource some of the production, feel free to throw it my way. My nation's got the technology and the metal resources to build something like that, but our economy is starved of fossil fuels and rubber to the point we're having trouble with our LIGHT industry...
Safehaven2
25-06-2005, 13:40
OOC: For prod rights I don't think we should pass those out for now, maybe later and in special cases but not yet. On the submarine point, I'm thinking we should throw on a few ASHUM turrets in case somehow a torpedoe does get close in.
The Macabees
25-06-2005, 20:07
OOC: For prod rights I don't think we should pass those out for now, maybe later and in special cases but not yet. On the submarine point, I'm thinking we should throw on a few ASHUM turrets in case somehow a torpedoe does get close in.


[OOC: Got you on both points. I'm going to add some ASHUM guns.]
Halberdgardia
25-06-2005, 20:14
OOC:

<<jaw drops>>

Sweet mother of Jesus, that is one badass ship.

What's the sale policy look like on these bad boys? If you're selling them openly, I'd gladly buy one for the new flagship of my navy.

<<drools over really big guns>>
The Macabees
25-06-2005, 20:35
OOC:

<<jaw drops>>

Sweet mother of Jesus, that is one badass ship.

What's the sale policy look like on these bad boys? If you're selling them openly, I'd gladly buy one for the new flagship of my navy.

<<drools over really big guns>>


[OOC: Hehe, thanks. Yes, they are for sale, just not production rights.]
Halberdgardia
25-06-2005, 20:49
[OOC: Hehe, thanks. Yes, they are for sale, just not production rights.]

OOC:

<<jumps up and down in schoolboy-like glee>>

We'll take it!

IC:

The Democratic Republic of Halberdgardia wishes to acquire one these formidable vessels for use as the new flagship of our navy. $95,000,000,000 will be wired upon confirmation.
The Macabees
25-06-2005, 20:52
To: Halberdgardia

We are glad that you chose the Argentine class Galleon as your ship of choice for a new flagship for your navy, and thus consequently, we feel impelled to confirm your order. Because of the sheer magnitude of the Argentine, however, it will take us at least eighteen months to complete your order, however, we assure you, that once it is in your hands, it will provide a very valuable force to your task forces - it is to say, it is well worth the wait.

We hope that the Argentine proves successful within your fleet, and we hope that victory comes to you through the guns of the galleon.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
Halberdgardia
25-06-2005, 21:01
We are most pleased to hear of the confirmation of our order, and we thank the Kriegzimmer Board for allowing our nation to acquire one of these awesome vessels. The necessary payment has been wired to your account. We are eager to see the Argentine-class in action, and wholeheartedly believe that it will more than live up to its reputation.
The Macabees
25-06-2005, 21:23
OOC:Its...wonderfull. I'll post tommorrow on how many my navy will be building. The Argentine, nice choice on a name.

[OOC: I almost forgot. We need to discuss the stats to the Air Defense Vessel.]
The Holy Womble
25-06-2005, 22:02
Does this ship have any kind of protection against battle divers with magnetic mines? ;)
The Macabees
25-06-2005, 22:03
Does this ship have any kind of protection against battle divers with magnetic mines? ;)


[OOC: Perhaps the fact that it's sorrounded by an entire battle fleet?]
The Macabees
26-06-2005, 00:50
[bump]
The Macabees
26-06-2005, 03:31
[bump]
Safehaven2
26-06-2005, 04:15
[OOC: I almost forgot. We need to discuss the stats to the Air Defense Vessel.]


OOC: Ya, we'll have to get on that before we can fully field these, one other thing maybe we should increase the price of selling them to others a bit.
The Macabees
26-06-2005, 06:39
OOC: Ya, we'll have to get on that before we can fully field these, one other thing maybe we should increase the price of selling them to others a bit.


[OOC: How much do you want to sell it for?]
Samtonia
27-06-2005, 02:06
[OOC- Yarr! I'm a pirate! TAG]
Fluffywuffy
27-06-2005, 02:24
[Tag for future purchases]
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 03:04
[Note: All editing concerning the armor, abstract and propulsion has been completed. Now, I will begin work on the ADV.]
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 07:33
[News: You can check out the Paramount class Air Defense Vessel [ADV] here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9142148&postcount=299). I really suggest you buys some Paramounts if you bought the Argentine.]
Fluffywuffy
27-06-2005, 15:45
The Second Empire wishes to acquire ten of these mighty vessels. However, simply acquiring these at some point is not enough for us; you see, the Second Empire is at war in that unstable region known as Haven, were there is likely to be ample naval contact between the Argentine-class galleons and the super-dreadnaughts of numerous other nations. That said, we wish to have a rush delivery and can provide the shipyards, and other industries, to aid in the speedy construction of these vessels. In return, we are willing to pay more for the Argentines and are willing to allow the Golden Throne to use our shipyards to construct its own galleons and other vessels. Finally, we will provide all data on the Argentine's performance in combat.
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 16:31
Priority Message to: The Second Empire [Fluffywuffy]

It will take a bit of strategizing in order to complete the rush delivery for ten Argentine class Galleons. We can offer the turning of service of our own five Argentines, used in our Kriegsmarine, which have not been battletested and are fully maintained, so should be considered as new. These will, if you accept, provide half of your order.

Should we build two of the rest of the Argentines in your own shipyards, under around the clock construction, prioritizing the shipyards for the Argentines, and the last three in our own extensive shipyards, which will prioritize shipping we can look at a completion date of one month. However, each Argentine would need its own shipyard, and its own construction crew. Moreover, the construction crew would need be at least thrice as large, and there would have to be shifts of crew. It would be a huge manpool of labor, however, it can done, government willing.

Kriegzimmer, with a sudden downturn in sells, is willing to do it. Should your government be willing to do it, as well, then your priority order can be completed in time.

Finally, we are very eager to hear the battle reports of the Argentine class Galleon. It will aid in the final verdict of whether this vessel can complete its job successfully and effectively. Thank you for your time.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
Fluffywuffy
27-06-2005, 20:03
Transmission to the Golden Throne:

Fluffywuffy is willing to engage in such a massive effort to construct the galleons in a timely manner and also finds the ship turnover offer interesting. Needless to say, the Second Empire understands that the ships will require a massive effort, but this war is greatly important to the Second Empire's interests and must be won at all costs. Therefore, we will devote the two shipyards required for the construction and begin hiring the laborers required for the effort.

As construction begins, we must ask how much the Golden Throne expects this effort to cost. No price is too large, and at this moment the Golden Throne essentially has a blank check. This check also includes battle data (OOC: and any OOC arguements about the ship) and any extraneous labor costs.
Kazaki
27-06-2005, 20:27
To: The Macabees
From: Kazaki Naval Dept. Admiral Hermans second in command of the Kazakian Naval Fleet
Re:Purchasing the Galleon Argentine Class

Kazaki is interested in purchasing 10 of the fine vessels. We're rebuilding our Navy from the ground up essentially. We have decided our fleet was looking a bit small. 475 to be wired upon confirmation the rest upon the arrival of the last ship. We have a few open shipyards if you desire to use those.
Halberdgardia
27-06-2005, 21:08
The Democratic Republic of Halberdgardia was most pleased with the first Allegiance-class hunter-killer dreadnaught (OOC: we liked Samtonia's designation for it, so we stole it :D) we received, and are pleased to announce that we wish to purchase two more of these fine vessels. $190,000,000,000 will be wired upon confirmation.
Generic empire
27-06-2005, 21:25
The Empire would be most interested in acquiring five of these outstanding nautical marvels. A sum of $475,000,000,000 has been designated for the purchase, and will be wired upon confirmation of the order.
Praetonia
27-06-2005, 21:48
...

...

Dont I remember you posting a thread not that many days ago about how railguns are impossible in Modern Tech and that they have lots and lots of horrible technical problems which you cant overcome with any modern knowledge of physics?
Samtonia
27-06-2005, 21:51
[OOC- I was kind of under the assumption that the araments made this ship PMT.....though The Macabees may have a different explanation entirely.]
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 22:28
...

...

Dont I remember you posting a thread not that many days ago about how railguns are impossible in Modern Tech and that they have lots and lots of horrible technical problems which you cant overcome with any modern knowledge of physics?


[OOC: However, in that same thread I received five pages of physics majors explaining to me how railguns were possible under modern technology.]
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 22:34
Transmission to the Golden Throne:

Fluffywuffy is willing to engage in such a massive effort to construct the galleons in a timely manner and also finds the ship turnover offer interesting. Needless to say, the Second Empire understands that the ships will require a massive effort, but this war is greatly important to the Second Empire's interests and must be won at all costs. Therefore, we will devote the two shipyards required for the construction and begin hiring the laborers required for the effort.

As construction begins, we must ask how much the Golden Throne expects this effort to cost. No price is too large, and at this moment the Golden Throne essentially has a blank check. This check also includes battle data (OOC: and any OOC arguements about the ship) and any extraneous labor costs.


To: The Second Empire
To give a price right out of hand is nigh impossible. The ship, conventionally, costs 95 billion USD, for exportation, and although two of the ships are being built in your shipyards, I still suspect that the price will be that high. The building in my shipyards will cost that, plus the thousands of extra workers, plus the duplicate amount of workers for a night shift, meaning worker wages will double, then increase by at least fourteen thousand dollars an hour.

I couldn't give an exact price for those built in your shipyards because I don't know the wages you give in your Empire. I myself pay mininum wages, seven Reichmarks, an hour for the basic workers, up to two hundred Reichmarks an hour for the most skilled workers. So it varies. However, it should go over the one hundred billion price mark per ship, regardless.

However, I think that these ships can be built within the month, with all the effort and money we're putting into it, and those five ships that will be given to you off stock - or our Kriegsmarine - will be in your home ports within the week, and our crews will fly themselves back home, and your crews can take over.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board

[OOC: One request though, TG me the war thread so that I can tag it and read it, so I can see how the Argentine does.]
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 22:38
To: The Macabees
From: Kazaki Naval Dept. Admiral Hermans second in command of the Kazakian Naval Fleet
Re:Purchasing the Galleon Argentine Class

Kazaki is interested in purchasing 10 of the fine vessels. We're rebuilding our Navy from the ground up essentially. We have decided our fleet was looking a bit small. 475 to be wired upon confirmation the rest upon the arrival of the last ship. We have a few open shipyards if you desire to use those.


To: Kazaki Naval Department, Admiral Hermans

We're currently undergoing an express delivery for Fluffywuffy, which will cost a bit more than usual, but more unfortunately, will back up production for thirty days. Consequently, production on your ten Argentines cannot begin until one month from today. Regardless, completion time for the last Argentine in this order should be six years from today. The ships will be delivered one by one, upon completion. We hope that this isn't a problem for your navy.

Upon hearing of the news that you are rebuilding your navy, Kriegzimmer shamelessly advertises themselves, however, in the end it is your choice, and we can only approve that Sarzonia, Isselmere and Praetonia also offer excellent choices for shipping. We know that you will make the decision that serves your nation best.

Thank you for your order. We hope that nothing is too much of a problem for Kazaki's navy.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 22:41
The Democratic Republic of Halberdgardia was most pleased with the first Allegiance-class hunter-killer dreadnaught (OOC: we liked Samtonia's designation for it, so we stole it :D) we received, and are pleased to announce that we wish to purchase two more of these fine vessels. $190,000,000,000 will be wired upon confirmation.

To: Halberdgardia

We are pleased, ourselves, that you the Allegiance did you well, or the Argentine, as we like to call it. Regardless of your choice of designation, although we think ours is better :p [yes, Kriegzimmer sponsors the use of smilies], we have confirmed your order for two more, and although we cannot begin production until a month from now, due to a special case for the Second Empire [Fluffywuffy], you can expect both ships completed and given to you within 1.8 to 2.1 years.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 22:43
The Empire would be most interested in acquiring five of these outstanding nautical marvels. A sum of $475,000,000,000 has been designated for the purchase, and will be wired upon confirmation of the order.


To: Generic Empire

We are glad that you have dubbed the Argentine a 'nautical marvel' and will be quoting you on that :p . Your order for five has been confirmed and the five will be sent seperately. Each Argentine will take more or less a year to complete, however, after the expansion of our shipyards to begin construction on the newer ships, this time will decrease severely - especially after the end of our little vacation. Nevertheless, thank you for ordering at Kriegzimmer!

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
Omz222
27-06-2005, 22:46
Though the Omzian Navy still bears many reservations about such vessel and operates some heavy command battleships themselves, the Omzian Navy also has dedicated a substantial amount of attention towards the Argentine class vessel. Though we still ebar much suspicion for a vessel that has projectile-firing guns as its dominating armament, we nevertheless feels that it is important to catch on with other navies in procuring new systems to defeat the wider and wider proliferation of the so-called "superdreadnaughts". Thus, with further thoughts, we are ready to request the purchase of five Argentine class vessels. However, we would also like to inquire whether it is possible to replace Macabee electronics and propulsion systems on the vessel with Omzian electronic systems, to allow greater compatibility.
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 22:54
Though the Omzian Navy still bears many reservations about such vessel and operates some heavy command battleships themselves, the Omzian Navy also has dedicated a substantial amount of attention towards the Argentine class vessel. Though we still ebar much suspicion for a vessel that has projectile-firing guns as its dominating armament, we nevertheless feels that it is important to catch on with other navies in procuring new systems to defeat the wider and wider proliferation of the so-called "superdreadnaughts". Thus, with further thoughts, we are ready to request the purchase of five Argentine class vessels. However, we would also like to inquire whether it is possible to replace Macabee electronics and propulsion systems on the vessel with Omzian electronic systems, to allow greater compatibility.

To: Omzian Naval Department
Yes, the Argentine still has much 'battle testing' to go through, so, as you say, it cannot claim to be an end all to Super Dreadnoughts. Regardless, theoritically it should fair well in general naval warfare, and warfare against super dreadnoughts. It should, however, be considered a Bismarck type ship. Large, yes, powerful, yes, but it also requires much in the way of support vessels, including air defense vessels, which is why all three of the navies which took part in the designing of the ship were so adamanmant about designing the ADV.

Regardless, our order for five has been confirmed. Upon your request for the exchange of electronics and propulsion systems, that is indeed possible. However, would you like to do that yourself upon your aquiring of the vessel, or do you wish for us to construct it like this from the beginning. If it is the latter, then we will either need Omzian engineers to aid us in the construction, and to direct the workers, or the plans to the electronics [OOC: You don't have to send me them literally, if you're worried about copyrights and such]. Whatever your decision, we are sure that it will work out.

With current production rates, until we can expand our shipyards after our vacation, we can foresee all five vessels being completed within the mininum of four years and the maximum of five and a half years. Nevertheless, we are sure that the Argentine will do your navy great service in the years to come.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
Omz222
27-06-2005, 23:01
We are indeed looking forward to accepting them into service for the years to come, and thus, we are also confident that they will be a viable and valuable aid in countering the growth of the deployment of "superdreadnaughts" in navies around the world, including navies that are potentally hostile. As well, we would also prefer to outfit our own electronics and propulsion systems ourselves in our own yards, once the base vessels are delivered to us.
In regards the transfer of $475 billion dollars of financial value, Omzian banks will arrange the deposit of $475 billion in Omzian accounts for a period of four years. As the vessels will delivered, we will be sure to transfer this sum of money all-together to the Macabee contractors.

The new vessels will be designated the Swordshield class BGAN in the Omzian Navy, with the lead vessel named ONCS BGAN-1 Swordshield.

Signed,
Omzian Ministry of National Defence
Kazaki
27-06-2005, 23:06
To: Kazaki Naval Department, Admiral Hermans

We're currently undergoing an express delivery for Fluffywuffy, which will cost a bit more than usual, but more unfortunately, will back up production for thirty days. Consequently, production on your ten Argentines cannot begin until one month from today. Regardless, completion time for the last Argentine in this order should be six years from today. The ships will be delivered one by one, upon completion. We hope that this isn't a problem for your navy.

Upon hearing of the news that you are rebuilding your navy, Kriegzimmer shamelessly advertises themselves, however, in the end it is your choice, and we can only approve that Sarzonia, Isselmere and Praetonia also offer excellent choices for shipping. We know that you will make the decision that serves your nation best.

Thank you for your order. We hope that nothing is too much of a problem for Kazaki's navy.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board

To:Kriegzimmer Board

No, it is not a problem at all. We are currently not engaged in any war that would require the presence of our navy. We have bought quite a few things from various nations although the communication between myself and the Head of the Department is not the best at the moment, so I do not know who they were from. The head is currently on vacation and since I have free reign and an almost blank check I'll be sure to check out more of your products. All for the good of Kazaki of course.

<signed>Admiral Hermans

OOC:I'm pretty sure I bought from Praetonia and Isselmere. But I will be sure to check out your other products. From what I've seen the various vessels and stuff you make is pretty good.
Safehaven2
27-06-2005, 23:11
With the amount of attention, and bussiness, the Argentine class Galleon was getting Havenite shipyards were put to work. Ten Argentines are to be laid out and building at any one time mostly in the great shipyards of Qana. This would do three things, it would help take the strain off of the Macabean yards that were being so overloaded and it would cut down on the time it took to fill orders. Not only that but it would give Haven valuable experience in constructing ships of such a size. There were risks involved in doing this, mainly that if they weren't bought it would have been a great waste of the taxpayers money and it meant it would take longer to deliver the ten Argentines ordered by the RHN but it was deemed worth it.

OOC: To anyone buying the Argentine I seriusly think you should look at the ADV's, they were designed specifically with the Argentines in mind.

Mac, what do you think about 135-150bill for pricing?

And Fluffywuffy I would much appreciate it if you tged or posted the link here of the war you said you were going to use these in.
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 23:22
With the amount of attention, and bussiness, the Argentine class Galleon was getting Havenite shipyards were put to work. Ten Argentines are to be laid out and building at any one time mostly in the great shipyards of Qana. This would do three things, it would help take the strain off of the Macabean yards that were being so overloaded and it would cut down on the time it took to fill orders. Not only that but it would give Haven valuable experience in constructing ships of such a size. There were risks involved in doing this, mainly that if they weren't bought it would have been a great waste of the taxpayers money and it meant it would take longer to deliver the ten Argentines ordered by the RHN but it was deemed worth it.

OOC: To anyone buying the Argentine I seriusly think you should look at the ADV's, they were designed specifically with the Argentines in mind.

Mac, what do you think about 135-150bill for pricing?

And Fluffywuffy I would much appreciate it if you tged or posted the link here of the war you said you were going to use these in.


[OOC: Hmmm, well I don't think it has to be over 100 billion because it doesn't have some of the systems other ships do, and I don't believe that the guns are that expensive. But in the end, I can if you want to. I think 150 billion might be too high.

My idea of pricing that it was cheaper than a conventional Super Dreadnought [oxymoron, no?], yet still powerful enough to blow one out of the water.

Also, since you have offered to start producing ten of these at any one time in your own shipyards, I guess we can automatically assume when I confirm orders, that ten of them will be built at your shipyards and the rest at mine; or no?]
Safehaven2
27-06-2005, 23:30
OOC:Maybe 130, still keeps it way below the cost of alot of the SD's I've seen out there. And ya just assume, after those ten are all sold my shipyards will keep on buildings but not so many.
Halberdgardia
27-06-2005, 23:34
To: Halberdgardia

We are pleased, ourselves, that you the Allegiance did you well, or the Argentine, as we like to call it. Regardless of your choice of designation, although we think ours is better :p [yes, Kriegzimmer sponsors the use of smilies], we have confirmed your order for two more, and although we cannot begin production until a month from now, due to a special case for the Second Empire [Fluffywuffy], you can expect both ships completed and given to you within 1.8 to 2.1 years.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board

We understand the reason behind the wait, and look forward to acquring the vessels in about two years. We appreciate your expedience in dealing with the massive orders you are receiving. As a side note, we wish the Second Empire luck in its war, and are certain that the Argentines they have purchased will serve them well. The requisite payment for our two Argentines has been wired to your account.
The Macabees
27-06-2005, 23:36
[Note: The price has been increased to 130 billion, however, orders done before the fact are not affected.
Teh ninjas
27-06-2005, 23:59
+tag+ for possible purchases.
Halberdgardia
28-06-2005, 00:05
[Note: The price has been increased to 130 billion, however, orders done before the fact are not affected.

OOC: Woo-hoo! We got in just in time, then. :D
Freudotopia
28-06-2005, 00:42
On behalf of the Freudotopian Imperial Navy (FIN), I would like to order one 10 Argentine-class Galleons. Money will be wired automatically upon confirmation of purchase. Thank you for your business.

--Rear Admiral Hiram Van Sanchez Chong, Director of Procurement, FIN
The Macabees
28-06-2005, 01:33
On behalf of the Freudotopian Imperial Navy (FIN), I would like to order one 10 Argentine-class Galleons. Money will be wired automatically upon confirmation of purchase. Thank you for your business.

--Rear Admiral Hiram Van Sanchez Chong, Director of Procurement, FIN


To: Rear Admiral Hiram Van Sanchez Chong

We are glad that the FIN has seen our Argentine as capable enough for service within their ranks. Consequently, your ten Argentine class Galleons will be built within the confines of Safe Haven's shipyards. We can estimate a seven to eight year building time for all ten ships, although the ships will be sent individually to your port cities after completion.

Thank you for your order, we're sure that the Argentine will do you great service.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
Fluffywuffy
28-06-2005, 01:46
[OOC: One request though, TG me the war thread so that I can tag it and read it, so I can see how the Argentine does.]

Will do, just as soon as I get the things deployed.

IC: The Second Empire is going ahead with the construction project, and has earmarked a total of $120 billion per ship, just in case any other complications occur.
The Silver Sky
28-06-2005, 02:16
The Silver Sky is very interested in Kriegzimmer's newest ship class, we have also noted how many nations have bought these ships, and with the recently ended rash of SDN designs being commisioned we have looked for a way to combat them without the huge cost of another SDN (this is almost 50% of what most SDN's cost).

Seeing this we would like to purchase:
4 Argentine Class - Galleons for $520 Billion USD
8 Paramount class Air Defense Vessels for $5.6 Billion USD
Total- $525.6 Billion USD

We also wish to be able to build one the first of each of these ships in our own ship yards so our service crews can take a better look at them, this will all be done under the supervision of Kriegzimmer personal of course. We will rename the Argentine class Galleon as the Distant Thunder class - Super Dreadnought Hunter/Killer (SDHK) in our navy.

[signed]
Fleet Admiral Michael Sutherland
The Armed Republic of The Silver Sky
The Macabees
28-06-2005, 02:24
To: The Silver Sky
Yes, the Argentine was designed to be cheaper than the common SD. It's in effect the cheaper counter unit. Your order for four Argentines and eight Paramounts has been confirmed, and yes, the first of both units can be built in your shipyards under our supervision. The other three Argentines will take two and a half years for completion, and the seven Paramounts three and a half years.

Thank you for your order and we will take note of your change in class name.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
The Macabees
28-06-2005, 04:34
[Link to the ADV added]
Clan Smoke Jaguar
30-06-2005, 11:24
OOC: Interesting, and possibly a good vessel depending on how it's used, but it's marred pretty badly by the inclusion of ERA, which would seem to suggest a serious lack of understading of both naval ordnance and ERA itself. Now there are several notable problems with this application:

1) Angle of attack: ERA on tanks takes advantage of the well sloped turret and glacis plates. This is important as, the closer the incoming round is to striking at a 90 degree angle, the less effective ERA becomes. At 90 degrees, it's little more than a slab of bolt-on armor. For modern tanks, the striking angle is usually only +/- 25 degrees for most ground fired weapons (barring top-attack ones), while for a ship receiving long-range shell fire, it's more like +/- 45 degrees, and it's pretty close to 90 degrees with an attacking missile. The result is that ERA bolted onto most surfaces on a ship would have a fraction of the effect of that put onto a tank.

2) Impacting Rounds: A tank is usually engaged with either HEAT or sub-caliber APFSDS rounds (both tank and missile warhead), which inflict focused localized penetration and rely on hitting/igniting some critical internal component to do damage. HEAT warheads are stopped by disrupting the jet, while APFSDS are affected by causing them to strike at an odd angle, snapping due to the force of impact at such high velocity. On ships, however, there's too much space, and the chances of a critical hit aren't that high. Thus, they need to deliver high explosive payloads past the armor, not just a small solid rod or a thin molten jet. Thus, it's full-bore armor peircing shells and big penetrating missiles. Full-bore rounds are not only much bigger than comparanble APFSDS, but strike at much lower velocities, reducing their vulnerability. They're also less effected when they snap in two. Antishipping missiles, as said, usually strike at close to a 90-degree angle, and also have the advantages of full-bore shells. The result is another dramatic reduction in the effectiveness of the ERA.

3) Size Does Matter: This ERA is noted as being the same model deployed on tanks. Now, while it may be effective against small APFSDS penetrators, the impacting rounds on a ship this size can easily have 1000 times the mass, or more. Thus, these thin ERA plates will have comparatively little effect on the big missiles and shells. Put into context, it's along the same lines as using strips of tin foil for ERA on the tanks.
So what about scaling it up? Well, you run into a host of other problems. For one, points 1 & 2 still apply, for another, it would be phenominally expensive to maintain all this bolt-on armor, which would have to be replaced frequently. For a third, just sticking with slightly thicker standard armor will have much better protection over time, as massed missile volleys can get easily have multiple rounds striking the same panel area. And finally, this would actually be too heavy. To provide heavy enough ERA plates, you'd have to incorporate extremely powerful explosive charges to move them as needed, and these will damage the armor underneath the ERA. Heck, even with modern tanks, this is a known drawback, especially with the heavy variants that are more effective against kinetic rounds.

All in all, ERA plates are pretty much completely worthless on a battleship. The rounds they're designed to defeat won't be used, and they can't defeat the rounds that will be. While it seems logical enough at first glance, this is an idea that simply doesn't stand up to reason.


Also, the guns could use some work. I see a lot of big guns of varying calibers and types, which is not only a logistical nightmare, but a serious problem for fire control. I'd advise dropping to no more than 2 big gun types, 3 at the outside, rather than the 4 currently employed. I also recommend greater difference between sizes.
Additionally, rail guns, even if potentially feasible, are simply not effective as ship-to-ship weapons. Due to the flat trajectory of such high velocity rounds, their value is only really recognized with line-of-sight engagements or extremely long range (read: highly inaccurate) bombardment, neither of which is likely in ship-to-ship engagements. And while you may point out guided shells for the long range, you're not going to get any guidance, or even maneuvering, at such speeds, and if you're within visual range of the enemy for a line-of-sight engagement, you've already screwed up big time. For any other range, including where you find most ship-to-ship combat these days, conventional and ETC guns are actually better.



All in all, combining ERA and rail guns, I got the impression that this was just designed like an oversized tank, which is an incredibly bad idea. The only things a tank and a battleship have in common are the general inclusion of bug guns, mobility, and heavy armor. However, things like type of gun (and ammunition) and armor design are completely different, due to the differing targets they're designed to defeat, and one should not try and mix many of these components together. At best, it's not worth it, and at worst, it can be seriously counterproductive.
The Macabees
30-06-2005, 22:56
[OOC: As for the ERA, I completely agree with you, and I voiced these concerns during the beginning of the project, but added them in anyways, just because it was part of the agreed on armored scheme - it's not easy agreeing on an armored scheme between three people. But I'll take it off, regardless.

I don't agree with you on the note about rail guns. On the five pages or so on rail guns of discussion on these forums they said everything completely different from what you said, and of what I've read and asked about, especially at the Coronado Naval Base when I went there a couple days ago. The things you said just don't add up. Railguns, with the information currently available, were not meant to fire flat trajectories, but instead meant to arc, which is how they get their distance. That's why this ship is meant to engage at distances exceeding one hundred nautical miles.

So, on ERA I agree with you, however, concerning railguns and their use, I don't.]
Clan Smoke Jaguar
01-07-2005, 01:55
Edit:

Any gun meant to fire long distances is going to have to arc. In fact, that's an intrinsic property of shells and bullets, they do drop over time. The thing is that rail guns don't arc quite as much. The higher the velocity, the flatter the trajectory will be, and the greater the minimum indirect fire range. That's where the problem lies. In order to make a rail gun effective in indirect fire at normal combat ranges, you have to lower the velocity of the outgoing round. If you sail a round out at 10,000 m/s, it may go hundreds of kilometers before it stands a chance of hitting anything on the surface.
Thus, at many ranges, hitting something will be quite difficult, as it's too easy to have the round just sail right over it. The biggest problem, however, is getting a deck hit, which is what you want. Belt hits are far less likely to penetrate and won't do much damage, even with a rail gun, and at combat ranges, the greater arc of lower-velocity weapons is far more conducive to deck hits.

I belive ETC is a much better option for a ship-to-ship weapon, while rail guns are better for long-range shore bombardment. Since this is a ship-killer, I'd go with ETC.
Uldarious
01-07-2005, 16:37
I would like to place an order for one Argentine class and two ADV's, after any modifacations are made as a result of these talks (assuming they're positive, I trust your skills as a ship builder).
The Macabees
01-07-2005, 17:22
[OOC: CSJ, what would you say the range on those ETCs would be?]

To: Uldarious
Your order for a single Argentine and two Paramounts has been confirmed. The Argentine will arrive within one and a half years, and the two paramounts within eight months.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
The Silver Sky
01-07-2005, 17:51
OOC: I porbably should have addressed this earlier, but wouldn't the rails be ruined after a few shots? No conductor we currently have are capable of firing more then 100 shots and with the size of the gun and the place where they are used (At sea, with salt water, weather and other corrosive things) you'd think they'd be limited to under 20 shots until we can come up with superconductors which are at least 15+ years off.
Clan Smoke Jaguar
01-07-2005, 18:21
[OOC: CSJ, what would you say the range on those ETCs would be?]

To: Uldarious
Your order for a single Argentine and two Paramounts has been confirmed. The Argentine will arrive within one and a half years, and the two paramounts within eight months.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
Well, I'm certainly no expert in the matter here, but my guess is that, depending on various factors, you might be able to push it to around 100 km (54 nm) for a full bore 25" round, and possibly around 200 km (108 nm) for a 20" SABOT projectile. Both of those should have sufficient mass and striking velocity to penetrate most SD armor, and still get a good explosive punch. A 17" SABOT might then go as far as 400 km (216 nm), though that would be more for shore bombardment or lighter vessels.
Another big bonus is that because of the lower velocity, these can incorporate genuine guidance in all shell types (at least GPS, but possibly active or passive detection systems as well), greatly increasing accuracy.

That will improve the utility of the vessel, though it's still not going to be a true SD killer, as SDs are designed to contain the damage of even heavy weapons, so you could empty the entire magazines of a dozen of these into most SDs and not sink them. A better bet is to try and take out the ship's ability to fight by trying to target specific portions such as turrets, magazines, hangars, and propulsion systems. Though far from perfect, guided rounds will certainly help make that a whole lot easier.
GMC Military Arms
30-07-2005, 08:09
[Argentine class Galleon <snip>

Well, s'about time someone else started using Railships...
Uldarious
31-07-2005, 09:15
OOC: yeah It's time to blow inordinately large amounts of money on a weapon that will probably never (or at least some time) see the light of day but hey, by the time their ready I have payed them off and gained anti SD capabilities whichj is what is important)

My nation would like to request another Argentine class and 2 ADV's as our navy is currently going into a complete overhaul and we thought it prudent to increase our capability to defend ourselves.
Cyth Vanilion Director of Military Operations
Safehaven2
02-08-2005, 15:13
OOC: yeah It's time to blow inordinately large amounts of money on a weapon that will probably never (or at least some time) see the light of day but hey, by the time their ready I have payed them off and gained anti SD capabilities whichj is what is important)

My nation would like to request another Argentine class and 2 ADV's as our navy is currently going into a complete overhaul and we thought it prudent to increase our capability to defend ourselves.
Cyth Vanilion Director of Military Operations

Your order for one Argentine and two ADV's is confirmed. The Argentine should arrive in two years while the ADVs will be completed before this year is over. We are glad to see you have chosen our weapons to use in your new navy.

OOC: I'm actually about to use the ADV and the Argentine in the VIzion war. And while you might not use the Argentine much the ADV still is usefull in any fleet to defend the fleet from missile/air attacks.
Lesser Ribena
02-08-2005, 15:32
To: The Macabees
From: Admiral Geoffrey Simnett, Minister for Defence, Kingdom of Lesser Ribena

Dear Sir,
I wish to place an order from your company for 5 Argentine Class Galleons, they will be incorporated into the 3rd (Reserve) Fleet and will complement the existing vessels there.

The total of £650 billion has been wired to your account and I hope for delivery of these fine vessels shortly.
Khiraebanaa
02-08-2005, 16:06
To: The Macabees
From: The Khiraebanaa Minister of Naval Defence

After reviewing this vessles statistics, I have decided that the nation of Khiraebanaa is in need of creating navy consisting of more than just row boats. I have thus come to the conclusion that the purchasing of four of these fine craft, as well as eight ADV's, is an excellent start to our nations naval force. The total sum of 525.6 billion dollars will be wired on confirmation.

~Signed,

Hilard Draxz
The Macabees
01-09-2005, 22:06
[OOC: Changed the guns a bit.]
The Macabees
01-09-2005, 22:08
To: The Macabees
From: Admiral Geoffrey Simnett, Minister for Defence, Kingdom of Lesser Ribena

Dear Sir,
I wish to place an order from your company for 5 Argentine Class Galleons, they will be incorporated into the 3rd (Reserve) Fleet and will complement the existing vessels there.

The total of £650 billion has been wired to your account and I hope for delivery of these fine vessels shortly.


[OOC: I understand this comes a bit late, but I was in Spain for two months!]

To: Admiral Geoffrey Simnett

Your order for five Argentine class Galleons has been confirmed, and they will begin construction in three weeks, and will be launched within a year and a half, and they will be completed in two years. We thank you for your order, and we are sure that the Argentine's will do your country a great service.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board
The Macabees
01-09-2005, 22:09
To: The Macabees
From: The Khiraebanaa Minister of Naval Defence

After reviewing this vessles statistics, I have decided that the nation of Khiraebanaa is in need of creating navy consisting of more than just row boats. I have thus come to the conclusion that the purchasing of four of these fine craft, as well as eight ADV's, is an excellent start to our nations naval force. The total sum of 525.6 billion dollars will be wired on confirmation.

~Signed,

Hilard Draxz

To: Khiraebanaa Minister of Naval Defense

[OOC: Again, two months late, assume, just like above, that they've already arrived.]

Thank you for your order. The eight ADVs will be launched within a week, and completed within a year. The Argentines will be completed within a year and three quarters. Nonetheless, the wait is well worth is, and the Argentine will do your navy a great service.

[signed]Kriegzimmer Board