NationStates Jolt Archive

Important Information for The Year 1932

IN PROGRESS

The Year 1920
(editors note: GDP information is difficult to come by for this period, and historical information was strongly affected by World War I, which in our time line was less severe and earlier... so I am still working on it. But for now, this should give you something to look at. In addition, I only included independent nations of this period. Colonial territories were not included principally because information is hard to get, and they don't control their economic destiny anyway at this point.)

North America

Canada
Population: 7 million
Economic Rating Very Strong (industrial)
Tech Level: 5
Oil Exporter

United States
Population: 105 million (plus colonial populations)
Economic Rating Powerhouse
Tech Level: 5.5
Oil Exporter

Central America and Caribbean
Cuba
Population 3 million
Economic Rating: Struggling or Fair (see below)
Tech level 3.5

Nicaruaga, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Honduras, El Salvador, Haiti, Santa Domingo all have struggly or fair economies depending on the prices their principal exports get on the world market that year, and tech levels of 2 or 3 depending on the quality of their infrastructure and level of political unrest (if any)

Mexico
Population: 20 million
Economic rating Fair (extractive)
Tech Level: 3
Oil Exporter

This area is a bit more stable than it was historically, although not by much. Although the US has not intervened in the area, and the Pan American Treaty prevents other nations from doing so, there has still been periodic internal unrest that frequently results in economic losses.

South America

Argentina
Population 7 million
Economic Rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4

Brazil
Population: 25 million
Economic Rating Fair (extractive)
Tech Level: 3.5

Chile
Population: 5 million
Economic Rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4

Colombia
Population: 5 million
Economic Rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level: 5

Venezuela
Population: 4 million
Economic rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 3.5
Oil Exporter

Europe
Albania
Population ?
Economic Rating Struggling (extractive)
Tech level 3

Hungary
Population: 18 million
Economic Rating Fair (market)
Tech Level: 4

Czechslovakia
population ?
Economic rating Good (industrial)
Tech level 5

Belgium
Population: 7 million (plus colonial)
Economic rating Very Good (industrial)
Industrial Base:
Tech Level: 4.5

Denmark
Population: 2,5 million (plus Iceland and other territory)
Economic rating Good (market)
Industrial Base:
Tech Level: 4

France
Population: 40 million (plus Colonial populations)
Economic Rating Very Strong (mercantile)
Tech Level: 5

Germany
Population: 70 million
Industrial Base: 52 (capacity), 71.2 (potential)
Economic Rating Very Strong (mercantile)
Tech level: 5.5

Great Britain
Population: 45 (plus a vast Colonial population)
Economic Rating: Powerhouse (mercantile)
Tech Level: 5.5
Exports Oil (Nigeria)

Greece
Population: 4 million
Economic rating Reasonable (extractive)
Tech Level: 3

Italy
Population: 35
Economic Rating Fair (industrial)
Tech Level: 5

Burgundy
Population: ?
Economic rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level 5

Yugoslavia
Population ?
Economic Rating Reasonable (market)
Tech level 3

Netherlands
Population: 6 million (plus Dutch East Indies)
Economic Rating Strong (mercantile)
Tech Level: 4
Exports Oil (Dutch East Indies, Aruba)

Norway
Population: 2.5 million
Economic rating Fair (extractive):
Tech Level: 3.5

Portugal
Population:6 million (plus Angola, Mozambique)
Economic rating Fair (extractive)
Tech level 3.5

Rumania
Population: 7 million
Economic rating Fair (market)
Tech Level: 4
Exports Oil

Russia
Population: 165 million
Economic Rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level: 5
exports Oil

Spain
Population ?
Economic Rating: Reasonable (extractive)
Tech level 4

Sweden
Population: 6 million +
Economic rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level: 5

Middle East and North Africa

Ottoman Empire
Population: 28 million (including territories)
Economic rating Reasonable (market)
Tech Level: 4
Exports Oil

Palestine
Population: 1 million (estimate)
Economic rating Struggling (extractive)
Tech Level: 3

Morocco
Population ?
Economic rating weak (extractive)
Tech level 2

no other independent nations at this point

Sub Saharan Africa
South Africa
Population: 6 million
Economic rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4

Liberia, Ethopia are also independent and have tech levels of 2, struggling, extractive economies
all other territory in Africa is owned by someone and is exclusively extractive

East Asia

China
Population: 500 + million
Economic rating Fair (market)
Tech Level: 4

Japan
Population: 55 Million
Economic Rating Strong (industrial)
Tech Level: 5

Korea
Population: 11 million
Economic Rating Fair (market)
Tech Level: 4

Siam
Population ?
Economic Rating Weak (Extractive)
Tech level 2

no other independent nations, Colonial territories are included in their owners rating

Oceania
Australia
Population 6 million
Economic Rating Good (Market)
Tech level 5

New Zealand
GDP per capita:
Population: 1 million
Economic Rating Fair (Extractive)
Tech Level: 3.5

no other independent countries, Colonial territories are including in their owners rating.

I was able to find a little information on my choosen nation.

- as of 1900 only 908,904 people lived on the territory of the Republic of Macedonia

-Based on how it is described as being the least industrialized nations of the Yugoslavian Federation, i would say it is Tech level 1 or Tech level 2.

-The GDP in 2002 was 3.8 billion dollars and the GDP per capita was $1900 if that helps any(couldn't find the GDP for 1900)

OOC
This will be updated as things move along and this list replaces all previous lists for all purposes. I will add more today.

Naval units
Tech Level 5 Naval units
Tech 5 Light ship (10 destroyers or 20 corvettes / sub chasers)
Cost 8 Build time 1 year (or 6 wartime turns)
Tech 5 light cruiser attack 1, protection 0, speed 6, range 5, 1 point, 1 year to build
Tech 5 heavy cruiser attack 2, protection 1, speed 6, range 3, 2 points, 2 years to build
Tech 5 superdreadnought (13.5 – 15 inch guns), attack 4, protection 4, speed 4, range 4 (can trade protection, speed and range around)
Tech 5 superdreadnought (16 inch guns), attack 5, protection 5, speed 4, range 4 (can trade protection, speed and range around)
Tech 5 light carrier (40 -60 aircraft), protection 1, speed 5, range 5
Tech 5 fleet carrier (80 -100 aircraft), protection 2, speed 5, range 6 (can trade range for speed)
Tech 5 submarine unit (20 submarines) attack 1, protection 0, speed 2, range 4, 6 points, 1 year
Repair a damaged warship 2 points, 2 months

Tech Level 6 naval units
Tech 6 transport unit (represents 500,000 tons of shipping, can carry 2 infantry type units, or 1 mechanized type unit or 3 air or artillery units from port to port). Protection 1, Speed 3, Range 4
Tech 6 Shipping unit (represents 500,000 tons of shipping and also and more importantly, .20 production points). Used as a place holder for attacks directed at shipping. Can be converted into a transport unit.
Tech 6 Light ship (10 destroyers or 15 destroyer escorts/frigates or 20 corvettes) attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 or 5 or 4 (destroyers, frigates and corvettes), range 4, Cost 8 Build time 1 year (or 6 wartime turns)
Tech 6 submarine unit (10 submarines), attack 1, protection 0, speed 3, range 5, 4 points, 1 year
Tech 6 light cruiser attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 range 6 (can trade a point of speed for a point of range) Cost 6 build time 2 years
Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6 (can trade a point of speed or protection for a point of range) Cost 7 build time 2 years
Tech 6 Battleship attack 4, protection 6, speed 4, range 6 (can trade a point of speed or attack or range for a point of protection) Cost 10 build time 4 years (14 inch guns)
Tech 6 Battleship attack 4 protection 7, speed 4, range 6, (can trade) Cost 11 build time 4 years (15 inch guns)
Tech 6 Battleship attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 (can trade) Cost 12 build time 5 years (16 inch guns)
Tech 6 Super battleship attack 6, protection 8, speed 5, range 5, Cost 15 build time 6 years (18 inch guns)
Tech 6 Fleet carrier protection 2, speed 6, range 6, Cost 8, build time 3 years (80 – 100 aircraft, or halve aircraft and get an armored deck)
Tech 6 Light carrier protection 1, speed 6, range 6, Cost 7 build time 2 years (30 -55 aircraft, or half that and get an armored flight deck)
Tech 6 Escort carrier protection 0, speed 4, range 5, Cost 4 build time 1 year (20 – 30 aircraft)
Tech 6 Amphibious assault fleet (represents 1 million tons of assault shipping and landing craft, can carry 2 infantry, motorized, mountain, airborne or amphibious corps which can conduct an opposed amphibious landing or land where no harbor exists. It can also carry 1 mechanized or armored corps, which can also make assault landings. This replaces the old amphibious unit) protection 1, range 3, speed 3, 6 points, 1 year to build.
Tech 6 Ocean Liners (represents 2 Queen Mary sized or 4 smaller sized ocean liners, can carry 1 non motorized corps from port to port). Protection 2, range 5, speed 6, Cost 10, 2 years to build.

Upgrade a tech level 5 warship or Ocean liner unit to tech level 6 (improves protection by +1, better damage control and some other improvements) Cost 2 points, refit time 1 year

Repair a damaged tech level 6 warship, half its build cost, 2 months
Air units
Single engined aircraft – 500 planes, multi engined – 250 planes
Pilots 2 points, 6 turns to train
fighter units 2 or 3 points (single or twin engined)
bomber units 2, or 3 or 4 points (single, twin or four engined)
naval air units 2 or 4 or 4 points (single, twin, or four engined)
air transports 3 or 4 points (twin or single engined)
carrier bombers and fighters 2 points

Remember, you need 1 pilot unit for every air unit you want to have operational. You are allowed to have extra pilot and aircraft units that haven’t been assigned pilots or aircraft (it’s a reserve)

Ground units
Represent 60,000 men (usually 2-3 divisions plus corps support units).

militia corps combat value 1 -4, cannot move, 1 point, 1 turn

Garrison troops (doesn’t include fortifications) combat value 2 -8, cannot move, 3 points, 3 turns

Infantry corps combat value 3 – 10, move 2 or 3, 2 points, 2 turns

armored corps combat value 6 – 12 (halved if attacking or defending in a city, mountain, forest or swamp hex), move 5 or 6 or 7, 6 points, 4 turns

motorized corps combat value 4 – 8, move 5 or 6, 3 points, 3 turns

mechanized corps combat value 5 – 10 (halved if attacking in a city, mountain, forest or swamp hex, defends normally), moves 5 or 6 or 7, 4 points, 4 turns

Horse cavalry corps combat value 1 – 5, moves 4 or 5, 2 points, 2 turns

Alpine corps combat value 4 -5, moves 4 (may move normally through mountain and alpine hexes, tripled if defending in those areas), 3 points, 3 turns

Marine corps combat value 4 – 10 (retains full strength if making assault landing, all other units are halved if making an assault landing), move 3, 4 points, 3 turns

Airborne corps combat value 2 – 5 (can make airborne assaults, takes 1 air transport unit to carry), move 2, 3 points, 3 turns

Headquarters units combat value 1, move 3 or 4 or 5, 6 points, 6 turns, can reorganize disorganized units, including air units, and provide supply if can trace a line to a valid supply source.

Upgrading a corps from infantry to motorized, motorized to mechanized 1 / turn for each level of upgrade. Corps cannot enter combat while being upgraded

anti tank units attack strength 1 defense strength 3 (doubled against armored, armored cavalry and mechanized), move 3, cost 2 points, 2 turns

Katyusha / Multiple Rocket launcher units 2 points / 2 turns attack strength 3 (doubled against infantry and horse cavalry in clear terrain not in a fortification) defense strength 1, move 3, cost 2 points, 2 turns

Flak artillery attack strength 1, defense strength 3 (doubled against aircraft), cost 2 points, 2 turns.

Railroad artillery 3 points / 3 turns. Attack 5 Defense 1, can only be moved by strategic movement. Railroad artillery Attack is doubled against fortifications and cities. Cost 3 points, 3 turns

Field artillery Attack 3, defense 3, move 3. cost 2 points. 2 turns.

Mechanized field, anti tank, flak, add +2 to move, cost +1, production time +1 turn

Coast artillery 3 points / 3 turns. Attack 0 Defense 5, can only be moved by strategic movement. Has a defense strength of 1 if attacked by ground combat forces attacking from land. The 5 points of defense are for amphibious landings only.

Fortifications (permanent, doubles defense strength all defending units, destroyed if captured) 2 points, 2 turns

Theater supply units no attack, defense 1, move 4, extends supply range cost 2 points. Production time 2 points.


Remember, the Military moderator (me) determines the combat value of your units, and you won't know what you have until they enter combat usually. Such is the uncertainties of peace time hopes and war time realities

Ah, so that's where it is! Excellent work folks :)

a quick correction... Spindletop is 1901 (oh well)

excellent book on the oil industry (and it won a Pulitzer too)... "The Prize"

most of the information on the oil industry I have is from this source

Saudi Arabia [Kroblexskij]
GDP per capita:
Population: 2,200,000
GDP:
Industrial Base:
Tech Level: 1
Probable Revenues:
Comments
GB:
FW:
VP:
LR:

one note, what do the GB, FW and so on mean?
forgive me for being ignorant.

I will update my Economy when i find more about it


also the introduction of oil should boost my puny nation's economy

France [Beta Centaury]
GDP per capita: $2849
Population: 38.9m, 14.4% urban
GDP: $110,826,100,000
Industrial Base: 39 (capacity), 36.8 (potential)
Tech Level: 4
Probable Revenues:
Comments
GB:
FW:
VP:
LR:

The potential is by how much you can increase, not the number you can potentially atein, right?

one note, what do the GB, FW and so on mean?
forgive me for being ignorant.

comments by the other economics referees.... if any are needed (GB=Galveston Bay)

The potential is by how much you can increase, not the number you can potentially atein, right?

its raw economic potential (food production, energy production, industrial production etc), and is different from actual industrial base in that its a larger overall look at things.

Viet Nam

GDP per capita: unknown
Population: 12,276,000
GDP: None
Industrial Base: None
Tech Level: 1
Probable Revenues:
Comments:
GB:
FW:
VP:
LR:

Galveston Bay here.... it would be useful if you are not an industrial country to post what your principal exports are.... for example, Vietnam is a leading exporter of Rice, also has rubber by World War 2.

Exports of Macedonia are - steel, textile products, coal, chromium, lead, zinc, nickel, tobacco, lamb, and wine.

i believe Luxembourg exsports a lot of Steel, according to Wiki anyway

Exports: LOTS of Rugs, Cotton, Opium, leather, dried fruits, textiles, dies

I just wanted to say that I'm very impressed. :)

So far I know...

GB = Galveston Bay
VP = Vas Porokim
FW = FluffyWuffy

But I can't remember or recall for the life of me who "LR" is.

hopefully everyone is getting information on their 1900 exports ... these things change over time after all.

Luxembourg had a steel industry in 1900?

it was practically Luxembourgs ONLY industry, it still is

My country doesn't exist, so basically i am left with only cold war export lists. Macedonian exports at the time would be mostly included in the Ottoman Empires, so i guess my list is more of what i will be exporting upon freedom....if that ever comes.

So far I know...

GB = Galveston Bay
VP = Vas Porokim
FW = FluffyWuffy

But I can't remember or recall for the life of me who "LR" is.

LR would be me! :)


Anyway, I think that if research is unavailable we can safely assume that annexed peoples will have roughly the same exports as the parent nation. Obviously with a few exceptions if the terrain is unsuitable etc. This is the case for many people (Including me!) and should make things a bit easier for them.

South America

Argentina [Manarth]
GDP per capita: $2756
Population: 4,542,000
GDP: $12,517,752,000
Industrial Base:
Tech Level: 2 or 2.5
Probable Revenues:
Comments
GB:
FW:
VP:
LR:

I don't really want to complain so early in the game, but just looking at the description of the tech levels, it seems that Argentina should be about tech level 2.5-3.0. We have railroads, telegraph lines, a rather large GDP, though not one of the top 10 in per capita, and even battleships (admittedly imported). While I admit that Argentina's main export at the time is agricultural products, it's second largest industry is it's railway system.

At any rate, my arguement is mainly that we rate a tad higher than just 2.0 in tech level.

I don't really want to complain so early in the game, but just looking at the description of the tech levels, it seems that Argentina should be about tech level 2.5-3.0. We have railroads, telegraph lines, a rather large GDP, though not one of the top 10 in per capita, and even battleships (admittedly imported). While I admit that Argentina's main export at the time is agricultural products, it's second largest industry is it's railway system.

At any rate, my arguement is mainly that we rate a tad higher than just 2.0 in tech level.
I assigned the Tech Level on an educated guess--and I assume that since you selected the country to play, you'd probably know more about it than I do. I'll change it presently.
And to the rest of you out there, please do feel free to contribute your own thoughts on your own countries. At least half of the Panel is composed of historians, but we're certainly not aware of everything, not by any means. If something we've said looks hinky to you, by all means appeal it. And if you further information to add, such as major exports and industries, it'll certainly be a big help.
One thing I want to mention about the oil production post--there is one place in the Middle East that is currently producing oil, which is the southern half of Persia (within the British sphere of influence). This may prove important shortly based on some of Parthini's hints. Oil at this time is mainly used for illumination in the production of kerosene, with low-quality gasoline as a byproduct. As my colleague GB says, however, petroleum will in a decade or thereabouts be replacing coal as the primary energy source of industry and transport.

I don't really want to complain so early in the game, but just looking at the description of the tech levels, it seems that Argentina should be about tech level 2.5-3.0. We have railroads, telegraph lines, a rather large GDP, though not one of the top 10 in per capita, and even battleships (admittedly imported). While I admit that Argentina's main export at the time is agricultural products, it's second largest industry is it's railway system.

At any rate, my arguement is mainly that we rate a tad higher than just 2.0 in tech level.

I would stick to 2.5 in Argentina, India and Brazils case. Even though a lot of Latin American countries (and for that matter, China and India too) have rail roads, most of the material is imported, particularly the locomotives. Now Argentina, India, and Brazil actually have steel industries, albeit on a relatively small scale, which moves them up from 2 to 2.5. But they don't have the complex industrial economy that Belgium, the Netherlands, and Sweden has for example, while they are more advanced than China and Mexico or for that matter, Paraguay or Chile.

I agree with GB, the tech level shouldn't merely represent what level of tech is available within a country but what it can produce and maintain itself. If all the tech is imported then a low level should be awarded. This would be for reference incase a nation was cut off from imports and had to maintain its own technology and develop new ideas. In the case of Argentina I agree with a 2.5 rating to represent the beginnings of industrialisation but with a heavy reliance of imported items (especially heavy machinery).

Economy

(to come at a later date)

exports -***** Dates, citrus, mutton, Textiles, Roses, coffee, wheat.
crude oil production, petroleum refining, basic petrochemicals, ammonia, industrial gases, sodium hydroxide (caustic soda), cement, construction, fertilizer, plastics, commercial ship repair, commercial aircraft repair *****

Imports - Machinery food, motors , textiles.

Well Petrolium wasn't really big in Persia until 1908 when some British guys found a huge deposit in Masjid-al-Salaman in the South. There were a few foreign owned deposits but nothing much.

Not to be picky but, according to my sources (http://www.iranica.com/articles/v8/v8f1/v8f1133viii.html) the population of Persia in 1900 is estimated at 10 million rather than 6. Also, the growth rate was estimated at 1%. Oh and the economic growth was 4 fold.

economic ratings given

see below
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9085119&postcount=4

bump

I just wanted to reaffirm my desire to have an additional 4 million people, unless of course the moderators have stronger evidence. However, my site states that there were 6 million people in 1800 and 10 million in 1900. Thanks

Parthini']I just wanted to reaffirm my desire to have an additional 4 million people, unless of course the moderators have stronger evidence. However, my site states that there were 6 million people in 1800 and 10 million in 1900. Thanks

The site you linked to is apparently down. I will check again later.

However, stats will be updated as time moves on, especially when a major event occurs

The site works OK now (at least for me), wierd.

Anyway quoted from it:

Thus, taking into account the impact of the great famines of the early 1870s, an estimated total of about 10 million Persians at the turn of the century implies a population size that was no more than what it had been half a century before

So it does indeed give an estimate of 10 million, whilst implying that it was larger previously before the famines. I don't know what boundaries they are using to define Persia as though so this could be a little hazy.

I indicated that a population of 10 million is listed by a second source... but since I don't know where the first figure came from (I didn't post it) I will leave it at that for now.

Either way, population of Persia is between 6 - 10 million more or less, and its economic rating remains "Weak" which is better than some of its neighbors and still better than the levels below that. It will quickly improve.

Hey, I just figured almost doubling my population would help :p Thanks anyways.

Havent had much time to view this thread, and admitedly reluctant because I'm crap at economics, but I must say well done to everyone for their work here, its very useful!

Does anyone know where I can find the GDP or any other economic facts about Persia circa 1900?

anyone know of a good database we can look stuff up at. Because I'm not finding much on Venezuela

OOC: can i get a link to the main thread for my friend. he might join if its not to late

*tag*

fi this helps this is what wiki says of belgiums GDP
GDP
- Total (2003)
- GDP/capita Ranked 18th
$294 billion
$28,396

also exports are rubber, chocolate, and i cant really find much more...if this helps its from an article on belgiums homepage (http://www.belgium.be/eportal/application?origin=searchResults.jsp&event=bea.portal.framework.internal.refresh&pageid=contentPage&docId=7939)

Belgium is a very open economy. Exports of goods and services accounted for nearly 76.5% of GDP in 1999, and imports nearly 73%. By way of comparison, the European average was almost 32.2% for exports and nearly 31% for imports. In 1999, the total value of exports was EUR 186.7 billion. Even though the share of services in trade relations is growing rapidly, around 70% of Belgian exports and imports still involve goods. This trade focuses very much on the European market. Half the goods exported by Belgium are sold in neighbouring countries (Germany, France and the Netherlands), while one quarter go to other EU member states. Imports follow the same pattern more or less. This situation reflects Belgium's role as a hub within the EU - as mentioned above.

We are currently a 105 years ago, so all the stats you posted are not accurate for circa 1900. search for more things, sorry

Heres what I've got on Australia:

Pop-4 mill(Actually 3.9 to be exact but whatever)
Exports:Gold, Wool, meat, agricultural products, copper ore some other metals and unrefined natural resources.

Not very industrailized with industrial areas focused in the South East but major industrializaton was just beggining before WW1 as before that there was no point with British factories suppling needs. Good infrastructure, probaly best in the region, very modern cities. Anything else I need to find for you guys?

O and about oil from what I've seen the first purpose built oil tanker was launched in the 1880's by Germany so its already a big thing.

I know they arent correct for 1900 i was just wondering if you could find anything from that

Heres what I've got on Australia:

Pop-4 mill(Actually 3.9 to be exact but whatever)
Exports:Gold, Wool, meat, agricultural products, copper ore some other metals and unrefined natural resources.

Not very industrailized with industrial areas focused in the South East but major industrializaton was just beggining before WW1 as before that there was no point with British factories suppling needs. Good infrastructure, probaly best in the region, very modern cities. Anything else I need to find for you guys?

O and about oil from what I've seen the first purpose built oil tanker was launched in the 1880's by Germany so its already a big thing.

that sums up Australia pretty well... at this time Australia has an extractive economy (raw materials, food stuffs, wool, wheat primarily) and a very good infrastructure to support that

I would rate Australia as tech level 2.5 at this time, and about to reach tech level 3, its economic rating is Good

New Zeeland has the same tech level, but has an economic rating of Fair because of its small size

How will purchasing of ships and weapons work?

there are no hard and fast rules so it'll be down to common sense mostly. Take a rough military budget from your taxes (at this time probably no more than 15% at most) and then take out a rough estimate of what it will take to keep soldiers in the field (Probably about 80-85% of this total) and then use the rest to buy things and research etc.

That's what i'll do anyway.

also, try to use historical information as much as possible. For smaller countries, this may be difficult at times, but usually you can look up your military for World War I or World War II and extrapolate from there (smaller usually at the start of the century). Post World War II, you can usually find Cold War information.

If you are trying to build a more elite or effective army, its going to be hard. No one has fought a really big war since 1870 in Europe or the 1860s in the Americas, and the Colonial Wars fought since then are pretty small scale comparitively speaking. So no one really knows what is going to happen when the big war starts historically.

Also, elite forces are extremely rare in this time period. Most armies are conscript forces and the only really professional armies are the small non conscript armies like the British, and to a limited extent, the Americans and Canadians. Although oddly enough the Russian Army is better now than it will be later as it just switched from a long (life long) conscription to a shorter conscription and for the only time in the century has lots of NCOs (who get killed off during the Great War)

So commandos etc are right out. The Boer commandos are actually units (a Commando is a company to battalion or squadron sized unit), not what the modern term has come to mean.

Some marines are very elite, but only in a morale sense. Really we are talking about simply much larger versions of the same kind of armies that fought the Napoleonic and American Civil Wars, but with deadlier weapons.

Which is why World War I was such a shock.

Also remember that Marconi has barely invented the Wireless, so there isn't any radio to speak of for a while.

so you want to develop into an industralized nation early and you aren't one now......

Things to consider

Capital-- you have to have it, and you almost certainly don't have much. If you have a big export trade in a raw commodity, like oil, gold, nitrates (bird dung believe it or not), silver, or just as important, have a critical strategic position like Colombia (which owns Panama) then you can generally get loans from the big banking countries. But there aren't many of those. The British are far and away the biggest lenders in 1900, with France, the US, Germany being large lenders and the Belgians lending some. Nobody else really has an international banking sector except the Swiss, and they are way down the list as far as actual investment goes. The lender nations change as the century goes along, but this who they are at the start.

If you don't have a valuable export, than you are probably out of luck unless someone sees you as a pawn in the great game of power politics. Unless you are a colony at the moment. Some of them are getting sizeable investment.

Even once you get money, figure at least 4 - 5 years to build whatever it is you are wanting to build in the way of infrastructure.

2. Educated middle class-- someone has to run the factories, the administrative offices, the banks, the government offices that deal with them, and the transportation system. The workers and peasants are educated enough to do that adequately. Figure a decade of solid investment in schooling and relevent social legislation (mandatory schooling for minors, and minimum working age requirements), plus either sizeable investment in sending kids to college elsewhere or a decade in creating your own colleges (which still requires getting teachers from somewhere). More like 10 -15 years really.

3. You must be reasonably self sufficient in food production or have sufficient exports to pay for it. Your population also must develop sufficient surplus not needed for farming to be workers, and enough wealth for some workers to become middle class. Geography and climate are going to be big factors here, and so is the state of medical care. If you have a tropical country you are probably out of luck until antibiotics and other medical advances occur mid century.

4. It helps a lot if you are not being fought over, and you have stable and strong central government, and if not, you aren't going to get conditions 1 or 2.

5. You must be at least tech level 2.5 to have any real chance at moving up to tech level 3 and beyond.

incidently, a full scale civil war is almost certainly going to drop any country's tech level by at least one, and possibly more depending how bad it gets.

All of the Civil Wars of the 20th Century were extremely destructive.

Just wondering, would you rate China as a 2.0 on the economic scale? Or is it a 1.5?

Also, what about Japan, Korea, Vietnam, etc.?

I'm curious, but could a civil war end up quickly if pretty much the entire population (including much of the army) was in support of the Rebels?

With all my announced improvements to Colombias education system as well as infrastructure, has this played any role on my tech level?

ok guys, some answers...

Colombia, not yet... it will take a decade but there will be improvements

NS Parthini.... what you are describing is a coup pretty much, not so much a civil war.. classic examples of 20th Century Civil Wars include Greece, Russia, China, and Spain, and they all last years and were bloody messes

Sharina... China is rated at tech level 2

see this post for details on everyone
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9085119&postcount=4

tech levels and economic ratings will change every decade or at the start of a major world event (like World War I for example assuming it occurs). Updates will be more frequent during major world crisis, less frequent during more routine periods

Just a heads up. I've signed a treaty with Great Britain a while back, giving my country infrastructure capable of building large naval vessels. Also, I've recently begun a plan to increase my supply of cheep labor, a necessity for industry. Plus, I've signed a major trade treaty with Japan, exporting large amounts of foodstuffs.

I'm guessing that should be enough to give me a free and clear tech 3, and perhapse work to bump up my economy rating.

Just a heads up. I've signed a treaty with Great Britain a while back, giving my country infrastructure capable of building large naval vessels. Also, I've recently begun a plan to increase my supply of cheep labor, a necessity for industry. Plus, I've signed a major trade treaty with Japan, exporting large amounts of foodstuffs.

I'm guessing that should be enough to give me a free and clear tech 3, and perhapse work to bump up my economy rating.

it will take time to build the infrastructure for a naval shipyard, so for now you remain at tech level 2.5

for the same reason I haven't changed Korea yet. Infrastructure takes years to develop, as does the trained work force to use and maintain it properly. Its only 1902, and you signed your treaty only a couple of years back. So not yet. Besides, you have to be tech level 4 to build modern naval vessels bigger than a torpedo boat.

I'm wondering... China is Tech Level 2, and Struggling Economy, correct? The Boxer Crisis (Alternate History name for it instead of Boxer Rebellion) is over, and China has opened trade with Britain and USA. Both Westerner nations are helping China build railroads and locomotives. China is also opening its 1st dynamite manufacturing plant to help with terraforming land and mining operations. In addition, widespread education reforms are underway, brought back from 1898.

So, when do you estimate China will actually improve its "category" to Tech Level 3, or Economy to "Growing" or "Reasonable"? Will it happen by 1905? 1910?

I'm wondering... China is Tech Level 2, and Struggling Economy, correct? The Boxer Crisis (Alternate History name for it instead of Boxer Rebellion) is over, and China has opened trade with Britain and USA. Both Westerner nations are helping China build railroads and locomotives. China is also opening its 1st dynamite manufacturing plant to help with terraforming land and mining operations. In addition, widespread education reforms are underway, brought back from 1898.

So, when do you estimate China will actually improve its "category" to Tech Level 3, or Economy to "Growing" or "Reasonable"? Will it happen by 1905? 1910?

Galveston Bay here.. portions of China, like the area around Shanghai, Tientsin, Canton, have much better economies and are at tech level 3, but the overwhelming majority of China is poverty stricken. So because of the vast size of China, improvement overall comes slower. I figure 1910 to reach tech level 2,5, and then 1915 to reach tech level 3 with the economy improving at faster rate (1905, 1910, 1915) unless something bad happens.

Thanks, I appreciate your input, GB.

I was just wondering, as I remember that Russia and Germany rapidly industrialized under Stalin and Hitler. Germany was in ruins and wrecked economy in 1925 - 1930 then by 1939, it turned into a powerhouse country. Russia did a similiar thing from 1935 to 1950, then Cold War with the USA.

Thanks, I appreciate your input, GB.

I was just wondering, as I remember that Russia and Germany rapidly industrialized under Stalin and Hitler. Germany was in ruins and wrecked economy in 1925 - 1930 then by 1939, it turned into a powerhouse country. Russia did a similiar thing from 1935 to 1950, then Cold War with the USA.

both had a lot more to work with to start from. Germany was the most modern country in Europe prior to World War I, and suffered no actual physical damage during that war, just dislocation during and after. It had a lot of industrial slack (as did the US as World War 2 began). Also, the German economy was a lot weaker during the war than powerhouse, it was straining the entire time.

The Soviet Union had a lot more as well, with a lot of railroad track, core industrial areas in St Petersburg, Moscow and to a lesser extent in other parts of European Russia. Expansion from that base was much easier as well. Ruthless enforcement of policy (to put it mildly) made a difference as well.

Gotcha.

So it'll be roughly 1925 or 1930 before China is equal to USA, Britain, Germany, etc. in economy and technology levels, correct?

Gotcha.

So it'll be roughly 1925 or 1930 before China is equal to USA, Britain, Germany, etc. in economy and technology levels, correct?

that really depends on events a lot..... catching up with those three will be hard as they are also accelerating in their tech level. Catching up with Russia though is doable, possibly France by that time frame.

I think it's possible, because if Germany + Russia could do it in 10 - 15 years (with their existing infrastructure), China could do it in double the timeframe (25 - 40 years) without having as much "initial" infrastructure.

it will take time to build the infrastructure for a naval shipyard, so for now you remain at tech level 2.5

for the same reason I haven't changed Korea yet. Infrastructure takes years to develop, as does the trained work force to use and maintain it properly. Its only 1902, and you signed your treaty only a couple of years back. So not yet. Besides, you have to be tech level 4 to build modern naval vessels bigger than a torpedo boat.

And yet I will actually have the technology in place to construct battleships, as Great Britain has given me said technology. Frankly, I don't really see how precicesly I would not be allowed to construct large naval vessels, as I would have the infastructure in place to do so. Perhapse I would not be able to build many, due to budget constraints or lack of a large workforce, but I am taking steps to rememdy said problems, and I can't really imagine that there is too much of a work force required to work in a shipyard. Certainly within a couple thousand workers.

Personally, I can't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to begin construction on my first battleship in late 1903 (the treaty was finalized in 1900, three years constructing one work area seems about right). Britain has the technology, they imported the technology to me, now I have the technology.

And yet I will actually have the technology in place to construct battleships, as Great Britain has given me said technology. Frankly, I don't really see how precicesly I would not be allowed to construct large naval vessels, as I would have the infastructure in place to do so. Perhapse I would not be able to build many, due to budget constraints or lack of a large workforce, but I am taking steps to rememdy said problems, and I can't really imagine that there is too much of a work force required to work in a shipyard. Certainly within a couple thousand workers.

Personally, I can't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to begin construction on my first battleship in late 1903 (the treaty was finalized in 1900, three years constructing one work area seems about right). Britain has the technology, they imported the technology to me, now I have the technology.

having the technology does not mean you have the industrial base.... it takes time to build up both. An example, the Russians stole microchips from the US as early as the 1970s, but was still having problems building their own over a decade later. Israel and Norway can build and have built their own cruise type anti ship missiles, but cannot afford to build their own missile cruisers and destroyers... they built corvettes instead. Brazil has its own space launch system but never built a major warship of its own. Tech level does not make all things available, just possible with the right economic rating.

Brazil, Argentina and Chile all purchased dreadnought warships prior to World War I, but never built any or for that matter, ever built any destroyers either. The tech level needed to operate is lower than the tech level needed to build, and the economic level required to be able to actually afford to build those things should be at least Strong.

So let me get this perfectly streight. I can purchase ships, I assume at above cost, from other countries, but I don't have the money to build them myself? I can purchase technology from a great power, have their own people arrive in my country to help install it, train my workers, and even help run it, and they're the ones paying for it all (the construction, their people on site, ect.). And then when I want to build a battleship, I can't, because "I don't have the industrial base". You are not honestly suggesting that, with the kind of immigration that I have, and the size of Buenos Aires as a city, that I can't come up with enough people, that I can't import enough iron, and other raw materials, and that I can't train enough workers fast enough to mearly START PRODUCTION OF ONE BATTLESHIP in late 1903?

Or do you just want to make sure you're the only power in the Western Hemisphere?

So let me get this perfectly streight. I can purchase ships, I assume at above cost, from other countries, but I don't have the money to build them myself? I can purchase technology from a great power, have their own people arrive in my country to help install it, train my workers, and even help run it, and they're the ones paying for it all (the construction, their people on site, ect.). And then when I want to build a battleship, I can't, because "I don't have the industrial base". You are not honestly suggesting that, with the kind of immigration that I have, and the size of Buenos Aires as a city, that I can't come up with enough people, that I can't import enough iron, and other raw materials, and that I can't train enough workers fast enough to mearly START PRODUCTION OF ONE BATTLESHIP in late 1903?

Or do you just want to make sure you're the only power in the Western Hemisphere?

no, I am not trying to make sure I am the only power in the Western Hemisphere.... actually, Brazil is far more likely to be able to build a battleship sooner than Argentina.

I am using history as my guide, along with projected changes based on what has occured so far. It costs far more to build the first of anything than it costs to buy from somebody who already builds them in quantity.

Economies of scale are the big reason for that. Britian, the US, Germany, and France routinely build ships, and in fairly large numbers. Therefore they can build them relatively cheaper than the first ship can be built in any other nation. As previously mentioned, it takes time for your tech level to move up, and your economy to improve.

3 years is a drop in the bucket. Russia is barely building their own warships at this time in history, and Japan is just getting started to do so. Argentina is nowhere as advanced as either of those 2 nations are in terms of tech level and economic development and for that matter, nor does Argentina have the disposable income those 2 states do.

So no, you can't build warships yet, techology transfers notwithstanding.

So let me get this perfectly streight. I can purchase ships, I assume at above cost, from other countries, but I don't have the money to build them myself? I can purchase technology from a great power, have their own people arrive in my country to help install it, train my workers, and even help run it, and they're the ones paying for it all (the construction, their people on site, ect.). And then when I want to build a battleship, I can't, because "I don't have the industrial base". You are not honestly suggesting that, with the kind of immigration that I have, and the size of Buenos Aires as a city, that I can't come up with enough people, that I can't import enough iron, and other raw materials, and that I can't train enough workers fast enough to mearly START PRODUCTION OF ONE BATTLESHIP in late 1903?

Or do you just want to make sure you're the only power in the Western Hemisphere?

GB is right. An industrial civilization involves an entire country. You have to have good transportation systems (including harbors large enough to be used for shipyards, which have to dredged regularly, protected from surges, etc.), reliable communications, decent education, a reliable supply chain, a manufacturing base for parts that can tool them--almost always--into the proper tolerances, etc.
Galveston Bay is a scholar and a gentleman. You shouldn't be impugning his motives like this just because he's ruled (correctly) that you can't have EVERYTHING you want RIGHT NOW. Listen and consider before you attack.

I managed to scrounge up the following things on Belgium's economy, as of 1900:

GDP per capita: $3652 USD
GDP total purchasing power: $42.75 Billion USD
GDP Growth Rate: 2% annually

Besides that I couldnt find anything else real important.

I managed to scrounge up the following things on Belgium's economy, as of 1900:

GDP per capita: $3652 USD
GDP total purchasing power: $42.75 Billion USD
GDP Growth Rate: 2% annually

Besides that I couldnt find anything else real important.

any luck on population size? I would give Belgium a tech level of 3.5, and an economic rating of strong... however, its not big enough to build things like a big navy and its too small for an imposing army, although it does have some very impressive forts (that the Germans built ironically)

Says on the first post that Belgium's population was about 6,693,000 citizens. Of course, Im not sure if this was just an assumption, or the modern population of Belgium. But Ill take a look.

---- EDIT ----

Ok, I found the total population of Belgium in 1907 to be around 6,136,000 citizens.

As for the tech rating, I do agree. Belgium is quite a strong Industrial Power (it was one of the first to Industrialize), however, as you said, it is incapable of producing a Dominating Military force and due to its relative size and position, is unable to dominate most major markets (But it is a leading exporter in Diamond Goods and its Dealers in Antwerp are some of the finest in the world.)

Says on the first post that Belgium's population was about 6,693,000 citizens. Of course, Im not sure if this was just an assumption, or the modern population of Belgium. But Ill take a look.

---- EDIT ----

Ok, I found the total population of Belgium in 1907 to be around 6,136,000 citizens.

As for the tech rating, I do agree. Belgium is quite a strong Industrial Power (it was one of the first to Industrialize), however, as you said, it is incapable of producing a Dominating Military force and due to its relative size and position, is unable to dominate most major markets (But it is a leading exporter in Diamond Goods and its Dealers in Antwerp are some of the finest in the world.)

thanks for that Belgium, I will update the information this week on everyone, and try to match countries by player as well

Bump.

After looking at the tech level rankings and Italy's tech level, I think Italy should be made level 4. Italy is, after all, posted in the top 10 rankings and can produce all the modern weapons of war. And that includes aircraft, as in a few years an Italian scientist (I forget his name...I'll get it in a bit) built a deriggable (sp?). Italy has a sub (more on the way). Battleships. Rifles. Artillery. In fact, an Italian inventor was among the first to invent the wireless telegraph/radio.

All of that is impossible under tech level 3-3.5 (where I am currently rated). Austria-Hungary, a nation with which Italy historically had a naval race with at this time, is tech level 4. It's a little fishy, if you ask me...

After looking at the tech level rankings and Italy's tech level, I think Italy should be made level 4. Italy is, after all, posted in the top 10 rankings and can produce all the modern weapons of war. And that includes aircraft, as in a few years an Italian scientist (I forget his name...I'll get it in a bit) built a deriggable (sp?). Italy has a sub (more on the way). Battleships. Rifles. Artillery. In fact, an Italian inventor was among the first to invent the wireless telegraph/radio.

All of that is impossible under tech level 3-3.5 (where I am currently rated). Austria-Hungary, a nation with which Italy historically had a naval race with at this time, is tech level 4. It's a little fishy, if you ask me...

Galveston Bay here... yes, I can live with Italy being tech level 4.. I wasn't responsible for the original rating and must of missed it.

Actually, I don't think anyone really has airplanes yet. I know Russia was doing something like that, and GB made a post about Kitty Hawk. But other than that, airplanes haven't really been used. Also, the thing that makes me a tad shakey is that most of the new plants (which I do believe haven't actually been built yet) are owned by either myself or France (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not really sure how Italy's education is now either. Call me a whiner, but I do believe that a few more years should be invested until that growth occurs. But then again, I could be all wrong. W/e.

Population would be appox. 4,600,000 people by 1910s.

Major Exports: Clothing, Shoes, Iron and Steel, Fuel, Machinery
Major Imports: Metals, Minerals, Textiles, Fuel, Food, Machinery

Industries: Energy, Food, Tobacco, Beverages, Machinery, Metals...

Agriculture is very important to Bulgaria at this time.

Income is in the lower middle to middle range compared to the rest of the world...

Parthini']Actually, I don't think anyone really has airplanes yet. I know Russia was doing something like that, and GB made a post about Kitty Hawk. But other than that, airplanes haven't really been used. Also, the thing that makes me a tad shakey is that most of the new plants (which I do believe haven't actually been built yet) are owned by either myself or France (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not really sure how Italy's education is now either. Call me a whiner, but I do believe that a few more years should be invested until that growth occurs. But then again, I could be all wrong. W/e.

Italy at tech level 4 is reasonable, especially as the US, Germany and Britian are now at tech level 5 or will be shortly.

Hmmm.... maybe I should begin to look at the ratings more...

I'd like to add something here.

I believe that China can reach Tech Level 3, and an Economy of "Good" by 1910 - 12, because of three factors.

1. Building dynamite plants, and exporting dynamite to the world that needs it a lot. This means some serious cash to self-invest into China's economy.

2. Massive public works projects like railroads, dams, mines, and irrigation will help China industrialize, and have better infrastructure. The first of these are taking place in 1903, and will continue onwards.

3. British and US investment, and selling China factory machinery and railroad equipment to help industrialize. Without British or US selling China those things, then China would need 5 - 10 more years to reach Tech Level 3 or industrialization.

Parthini: I believe the weapons plants were built by Germany for Italy, in exchange for a base near Syracuse (unless my eternal memory problems are haunting me, and I traded the base for something else) . The French yard, I believe, was built by France but France can use it if it desires. Spain is nearing a trade agreement with Italy, Britain removed all tarrifs on Italian goods, and France has removed taxes, duties, tarrifs, etc. on their coal industry so that I can tap into whatever coal supplies they have (I don't think it's much, but any help is useful.).

Quick update on British economic conditions.

Britain has trade agreements with Italy and Belgium whereby no customs tariffs are to be paid on goods transported between us and tehse nations.

Increased spending has been diverted from the budget towards education for the country. As resulting from the 1900 higher education act and the Balfour Education Act (1902)

Annexation of the former Italian territory of Italian Somaliland and Eritrea.

I have a base in Syracuse O_o

Well that must have been what Aequatio did. I agree then that Italy should be boosted to Level 4. You now have Germany's stamp of approval :)

Must have been. I'm surprised you didn't notice. You may also not have noticed that, apparantly, you also have to provide officers to help retrain the Italian army. It appears as if Aequatio is quite the philanthropist...

I don't what level is my economy for the moment is,but factor these things in to impove my tech level. With the help of Germany and other nations, I have been building up my nation by building new factorie. Also I have been lately impoving my railroad network by 10 ten fold...it took me some time to do that. Also I have to layout plan for a massive oil fleid build up for my Iraq region.Then my arm forces are being impove thought massive reforms with the help of Germany. So I am guessing I am somewhat up a level or something.

I would support the Ottoman's rise to rank 3 by next year. They certainly have developed in the past few years.

However, I think we should only have the economic improvement things every 5 years. So by 1905 have everyone who is supposed to move up would.

yes, I will look at everyone again for 1905, plus add in everyone who is new and remove the inactive ones (or at least indicate that they are)

Australia here, heres whats happened these past five years with us.

About our population first, in mainland Australia it hasn't grown much, its at about 4.1 million now but we now have control over the Bismark Archipelago, Kaiser Wilhelm's Land and Papua so thatl'' give my pop a decent boost though I'm not sure how big of a boost just yet as I haven't found any info.

Our infrastructure has seen a large improvement. I kinda cheated and started Australia's trans-continential railroad twelve years earlier in 1900 so after five years that project is wrapping up. So now the west and east coasts are conected along with the rest of the country including much of the interior.(The real railroad actually cut across the interior instead staying on the coast.) Should help the flow of goods and people and improve the economy especially in the interior were they now have greater acess to goods exc.

The second major project Australia's been working on is its port facilities. This includes the expansion of existing facilities and the building of new ones in smaller and upcoming towns/cities. Not only port and harbor facilities but, to a lesser extent, shipyards. The first Australian built destroyer was just launched in Perth. This plus the aquiring of new territory is hoped to increase trade in Australia and its territories. The railroads and ports were upgraded and built with mainly that purpose in mind.

With the new territories we also have a few new products. Mostly fruit and palm products but to a lesser extent we now export some spices and tobacco. Were still not very industrialized though we are getting there. We do have some steel mills and factories but as of yet we depend on Britian for most of our finished goods, that won't change till WW1 if it happens, if not we'll have to see. Other than that our military is still small with most of our nations resources having been focused instead on building and upgrading our infrastructure. One other thing is that alot of universities and upper level education schools have started opening.(Happened around now historically.)

Umm...can't think of anything else right now.

EDIT: Almost forgot, GB let us go, Australia is now a soveriegn nation.

Here's my summary on China for 1904 and 1905.

China has continued its industrialization process, by constructing factories and more railroads. By the end of 1905, China will have connected about 15 major cities via railroad, along with railroad lines running into Mongolia, Manchuria, and the foothills of the Himalayas for mining operations. This will allow China to haul mass quantities of metal ore, minerals, and other resources from the mountains to the newly operating factories around Shanghai, Peking, Tienstin, etc.

Right now, China has several dynamite factories. They have been an immense help towards industrialization and railroad construction, as dynamite is used extensively to terraform and flatten land for construction. The first few munitions factories are slated to open in early 1905, which will allow China to manufacture ammunition for the US provided guns, and China is working on a new gun design based off the US guns to domestically produce. This effort should be done by late 1905 or early 1906 and then China can finally produce its own decent quality weapons by 1906 or 1907. Several other factories are being built, including construction equipment factories, steam engine factories (to build steam engines for ships, earth movers, etc.), more textile factories to refine China's mass quantities of silk, etc.

China is looking to start building a shipyard or two by 1906 or 1907. This could be accelerated somewhat by foreign investment, though. China is also curious about Henry Ford's Model T, and might want to build a factory or two to produce those in China.

The education reforms are starting to take effect, as the first batches of Chinese intellectuals are "graduating" after 5 years of education in temples and newly built universities. My Emperor is trying to model China's education system after the United States, hence the universities and such. This should allow more teachers, faculty, etc. to take up jobs (those graduates return to universities to teach), while other graduates start to engineer and help high-end industries to form.

Those reforms are finally reaching the sparse Chinese communities in the countryside, as the railroads and newly built roads are helping the urban people to reach the countryside people, as well as allowing the countryside people access to the urban areas and their stronger economies.

Basically, China is starting to emerge from its backwards state, with all the reforms, factory building, developing transportation networks, growing numbers of intellectuals, etc.

Here's Italy's situation

Several nations, France, Britain, Austria-Hungary and (I think) Spain all removed or lowered tarrifs, in exchange for Italy doing the same. France agreed to remove all taxes on its coal industry and export it to Italy, though I don't think France has tons of coal. I believe these agreements on their own should have a positive effect on Italy's economy, but they are not the only factor involved.

One of the most major changes to Italy is Austria-Hungary agreeing to move the border from the historical one to the modern day one. This should, I think, move about 1 million or so people from Austria-Hungary into Italy. Trieste is also a decent sized port city, frequented by artists and the like. Finally, I believe the Brenner Pass is now in joint Italian and Austro-Hungarian hands, unless that current arrangement is part of a seperate (modern day) deal and not dealing with territory.

One of the most important progresses is the new shipyards and factories. The factories are (currently) not in great use, considering that Italy has not recently ordered many artillery weapons, rifles, etc. However, the Italian naval yards are nearing maximum capacity with the large amount of orders from Brazil, with orders comming from Spain (submarines, not added into the military thread yet) and (potentially) China. Italian ship production tonnage has gone up from 100,000 to 300,000, a major increase.

Finally, there are some new projects that are to start soon. With the shipyards complete, Italy is to begin construction on roads linking the entire countryside. Education has only recently begun improvements, (late 1903 or early 1904, I think) so that may be a hindrance to growth. Italian engineers are also in Brazil helping to build up the coal and (I think) iron industries, with the intention to use Brazilian iron on Italian warships (once available in large quantities) and develop a significant steel industry in Italy. However, no funding has been diverted to building steel mills.

By the way guys, the military buildup is going to start affecting some of your economies if it continues. In addition, if a general war in Europe breaks out, expect some definite economic impacts.

Not sure what my economy is, but I have some serious civil improvements in the works, most recently, the building of a shipyard in Inchon with help from Italy, and a new healthcare system is in the works. I am also planning textile equipment factories near Pyongyang and textile mills near Kimpo, plus dams and mines with Chinese help, and Italy and Austria are planning new bases and technology transfers (Italy sold Cei-Rigottis and is making their base already).

Also, Fluffywuffy left me a budding automotive project and polytechnic school, a developing rail system and heavy industries (steel, iron, coal), plus new tech for agrilculture.

Bump for something from the mods on Australia.

Stuff takes time guys. I know I can't say much as I'm already one of the most advanced nations, but getting a heathcare system takes a few years to train and build, then a few years to get it running fully. I have to build up a nation (Venezuela if the Americans will calm down :p) so I have the same problem. That, and not everyone has extensive trade alliances, so at least try to keep your budgets somewhat realistic.

Parthini']Stuff takes time guys. I know I can't say much as I'm already one of the most advanced nations, but getting a heathcare system takes a few years to train and build, then a few years to get it running fully. I have to build up a nation (Venezuela if the Americans will calm down :p) so I have the same problem. That, and not everyone has extensive trade alliances, so at least try to keep your budgets somewhat realistic.

I planned for that actually, I expected my healthcare system to not get finished until 1910 whereabouts, a good five years off.

By the way guys, the military buildup is going to start affecting some of your economies if it continues. In addition, if a general war in Europe breaks out, expect some definite economic impacts.

Oh, I think Germany's arms factories are feeling the impact :cool:

I planned for that actually, I expected my healthcare system to not get finished until 1910 whereabouts, a good five years off.


Good. I just wanted to make sure you knew. I remember a while ago someone got all ahead of himself and got frustrated and left. Don't want that to happen :)

Parthini']Oh, I think Germany's arms factories are feeling the impact :cool:


Speaking of arms factories, how about those weapons you're going to sell me? :D

I need to make sure I can get there! I have some rifles and machine guns set aside.

Parthini']I need to make sure I can get there! I have some rifles and machine guns set aside.
Whre's China when you need him?

ok, war moderator here... lets do the smuggling weapons in Indochina in another thread.. But I will assume that China still has sufficient corruption that if you don't get legal permission from China, you can still bribe officials to lets arms flow into Indochina for the rebels. Same with Siam. Forming an army is going to be trickier, the Rebels need a safe area, and have one in China and Siam for relatively small groups, but not the size you need to form up an actual army.

Meanwhile....
Immediate economic impact on Austria Hungary, Serbia and Russia for the War.

The Serbian economy basically collapses and is now a basket case, they can feed themselves, barely, but every available man is being drafted into the army.

The Russian and Austrian economies both are having adjustment issues, figure both drop to "Fair" for the rest of 1905, but then they adjust and return to the immediate pre war economy for 1906. Longer term though....

Italy, your economy also has to adjust, figure no expansion of your base for 1906, although you will be able to provide all the tools of war, at least for now.

Others, we will see.... nothing yet, next year though....

Not sure how much the economy for Venezuela has gone up, but I am assuming it is growing rather rapidly. I would also assume Germany is getting a nice little boost in the long run, due to investment in Venezuela and selling stuff for the war.

my guess, as Venezuela had a civil war going on when Germany moved in, is that Germany took over a "basket case" and has probably brought it up to struggling in the year its been occupied completely and the fighting brought ot an end. No oil has been found yet (another decade I think, but I will check), and it doesn't have anything spectacular in exports if I remember correctly. In other words, Germany has spent more money on it than it has gotten back, similar to the US situation in the Philippines so far for example, or most of the European African colonies at this poin (which have only had about 10 - 20 years of occupation except for the Portugese colonies and South Africa, and French Algeria)

The Kingdom of Bulgaria is at a tech level 2-3. Major Railroad and telegraph lines have been established in the major parts of the country. The first set of new naval ships will start sailing out of Varna and Burgos within a year or two at earliest...
Situation with Rumania is great and stable so far, but we are not worried about the AH-Russia war as much as the Rumanian and the others are...
Agriculture is still one of the main businesses with Machinery and Fuels closely behind at this point.

economics ratings will be adjusted in 1907 to reflect the effects of the war, for now, assume the belligerent nations are converting to total war, and that means a lot less for capitalization and infrastructure and a lot more in consumables (munitions, clothing, weapons, misc equipment), especially as most of the men 18 - 35 are in the Army at the moment, or like in Russia, still working in agriculture to feed everyone.

Yeah, Russia's going to introduce radical agrarian reforms before the end of 1906, precisely for that reason. It'll probably be worse at first, but hopefully in time we'll free up more labor (and capital) for industrialization.
Fighting a modern war with a medieval economy is a serious pain.

Effects of the Great War

1. Insurance costs for merchant shipping begin to climb for ships that are flagged under one of the Belligerent nations flags.
2. No one has instituted a blockade yet, so shipping is flowing freely in the Oceans. However, naturally, no Coalition shipping can be found in the Western Med or near Spain, while no League shipping can be found in the Eastern Med or Baltic Sea. However there is lots of British, American and other neutral shipping to take up the slack.
3. Capital investment on infrastructure in the warring states falls drastically, in addition, all those arms the warring states are buying overseas is resulting in a flood of currency reserves out of their country into the world market without a corrosponding return of currency as they are exporting less. The more materials and arms bought overseas, the worse it will get.
4. The infrastructure, particularly railroads, is getting very hard use. In France and Germany, its bearable, as they have so much of it and a lot of slack. In other nations, like Italy, Russia and Austria Hungary, it will begin to show the effects within a couple of years. Spare upgrades in colonial regions are going to have to take a back seat unless you want to wear your own railroads out sooner.
5. Wastage in war equipment is ongoing, and requires a sizeable (nearly half) of your war production just to replace the equipment your soldiers already are using. Then comes upgrades and expansion.
6. A labor shortage now exists in France and Austria Hungary, and threatens in Germany, Italy and Russia. Its beyond a shortage in the smaller nations and even beyond a crisis.
7. America and Great Britian are about to get even richer the longer Europe fights... as long as they stay out of the war and are willing to loan money and sell stuff.
8. Japan, and to a much lesser extent, Colombia, China and Korea stand to benefit similarly.

Economics is a bit complicated in Total War

In early May 1906, Premier Count Witte is effectively promoted to "Grand Chancellor" by being given the portfolios of Finance and the Interior, in order to increase revenue and war production.
Witte immediately concludes a Trade and Non-Aggression Agreement with Japan, and agrees to share the Russian lease of Manchuria, and sell Japan the Kuril Islands. All incomes preserved and acquired from these arrangements immediately go into the construction and improvement of military industries.
The Premier also makes trade arrangements with Australia and Great Britain.
Ukrainian fiscal autonomy is delayed.
And, as much as the Grand Chancellor despises himself for it, the conscript (i.e., Lithuanian slave) labor system is used extensively for infrastructure support and resource extraction.
Internal reform proves tricky, however. Sweeping administrative streamlining (i.e., downsizing) is being implemented to combat corruption, improve efficiency, and free up revenues, but the really necessary task ahead is comprehensive land reform.
A Plenipotentiary Council is formed in late May by the Grand Chancellor to deliver an answer to this question.

going to have to leave this, sorry

I'd just like to point out that Belgium has yet to be updated with the information I had previously posted. I do recognize that you guys are rather busy, but I do believe you've had plenty of time to accomplish this rather small task.

Thank you.

I'd just like to point out that Belgium has yet to be updated with the information I had previously posted. I do recognize that you guys are rather busy, but I do believe you've had plenty of time to accomplish this rather small task.

Thank you.

the economics thread will be updated Tuesday or maybe Monday to reflect the economic effect of the Great War in Europe... Belgium is making lots of money, so you should be happy

I'd also like to point out that the smallest tasks are usually--and rightly--the lowest priority. No offense.

One question about war profiteering, would the Great War stimulate economic growth very quickly in Korea? Because I was thinking of entering into the exports game, though the belligerents would have to pick up any goods made, since I have little or no merchant fleet.

I did a big post, as economod, and then my system crashed... sigh.. ok, I will do it again tomorrow.

Here is the short version

America economy expands to powerhouse, British Economy slips to thriving because of the embargo with the League (although Canada ignores that embargo and moves up to Good).

Sweden, Belgium, Netherlands, Colombia, Japan move up to Strong or very Strong, while Portugal, Cuba, Bulgaria, Vietnam (Indochina), move up to Fair

Spain, the Ottoman Empire, Greece, Serbia, and Macedonia are facing economic collapse and need subsidies or loans to continue the war.

Germany slips to Strong, Russia to Struggling, Austria to Fair, Italy to Fair, and France to Strong because of labor shortages, heavy government debt, nearly a third or more of their economy is now directly involved in war production, food shortages are requiring imports (hence the money problem), they are losing merchant shipping to foreign flags, a lot of their overseas trade has moved to the neutrals, and things are going to get worse.

Austrian Poland, Transylvania and Serbia are economic disasters at the moment because they were thoroughly fought over.

China, Korea and Denmark would like to move up, and probably will as the war continues. But not yet (too small Denmark, or too many institutional barriers to rapid change in Korea or China).

However, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa are having an economic boom, as is Argentina, Brazil and the rest of Latin America except Mexico (social unrest is growing worse). All move up one level or even two.

I was planning on having Witte cut a deal with the Labor Unions, allowing them the right to organize and various other basics (forty hour work week, the right to strike, etc.), provided that they agree to the suspension of those rights for the duration of the War. Most of them are probably still fairly patriotic, so this ought to work, if not perfectly. I was also going to promise the Lithuanians their freedom after the War (permanent exile in Australia, not that I'll tell them that part). Moreover, I was going to begin constitutional reforms ceding more power to the Zemstva, and creating a partially-elected Duma. Basically, it was going to be a little more liberal than the actual Constitution of 1905, and it will hopefully keep things under control until victory is achieved.
Finally, land reform is beginning to be implemented. Since cash-flow is not a problem, yet, it largely consists of compensated consolidation of communal lots into private ones, increasing efficiency and freeing up labor from the field for the factory. That's the plan for 1907, anyway. Whether it will work is questionable.

Witte has produced, with the reluctant agreement of the Tsar, a Constitution for the Russian Empire. The Basic Law is closely (very closely--whole blocks of text are directly lifted) modelled on the Constitution of the German Empire, with an Imperial Senate (Imperskii Senat) taking the place of the Federal Council and a Council (Duma) standing in for the Diet. The prime minister is also referred to as "Premier," rather than "Chancellor." Russian Poland, Finland, Georgia, and Ukraine, along with Russia "proper," are accorded "Dominion" status within the "Imperial Commonwealth," which for Poland, Finland, and Georgia is exactly analogous to the position of States within the German Confederation. Russia, however, is granted a clear position of leadership in the Commonwealth, slightly stronger in comparison to Prussia's position in Germany, while Ukraine is granted considerably more autonomy than even Bavaria--Ukraine will be allowed her own troops, flags, officials, laws, and revenues, though foreign policy will remain under St. Petersburg's control and there will be common citizenship and internal trade policy.
The word "Autocrat" disappears from the Tsar's titles, and Elections are scheduled for January 1908.

temporary economic conditions immediate post war period (what you do next will determine how things go from here)

Economic Status 1908
Post Great War

The World economy is currently undergoing a Recession at the moment, as the strains of war on the Europeans and production in the Neutral nations now exceeds demand. Immediately after the war, most of the orders for military goods ceased, and the Europeans released their men to return to the civilian economy. Not that they had a choice, as the costs of the huge armies were even a bigger drain on their economies.

Current Status
North America
United States [Galveston Bay]
Tech level 5 Economic Rating Thriving (slipped from Powerhouse)

Central America
?Cuba [Zackaroth]
Tech level 3 Economic rating Developing (slipped from Fair)
Mexico [Yuwait]
Tech level 3.5 Economic Rating Weak (due to political instability)

South America
Argentina [NPC or Kordo]
Tech level 3.5 Economic rating fair (recession)

Brazil [Gintonpar]
Tech level 3 Economic rating Fair (recession)

Chile [West Cedarbrook]
Tech level 3.5 Economic rating Fair (recession)

Colombia [Artitsa]
Tech level 4 Economic rating Fair (recession)

Europe
Hungary [Kordo or NPC]
Tech level 4 Economic rating Fragile (huge debts, serious damage, severe casualties, political instability)

Belgium [Lachenburg]
Tech level 5 Economic rating Strong (recession)

Bulgaria [Kirstiriera]
Tech level 4 economic rating fair (recession)

Czechoslovakia [NPC]
Tech level 4 economic rating Fragile (political instability, severe casualties, but has some impressive assets industrially)

Denmark [Moorington]
Tech level 4 economic rating Good (recession)

France [Jensai]
Tech level 5 economic rating Strong (severe casualties, serious foreign and internal debt, retooling from war, recession)

Germany [Parthini]
Tech level 5 economic rating Strong (severe casualties, serious foreign and internal debt, recession as retooling from war, some areas damaged (the annexed part),

Great Britain [Lesser Ribena]
Tech level 5 Economic rating Thriving (suffered some loss of trade, recession from the end of the war, has an excess of capital)

Greece [NPC]
Tech level 3 economic rating fair (recession)

Italy [Fluffywuffy]
Tech level 5 economic rating fair (recession, serious casualties, excessive military to size of economy, serious foreign and internal debt, retooling to peace)

The Netherlands [---Zeon---]
Tech level 5 economic rating Good (recession)

Poland* [NPC: Ruled by Russia and Germany]
Same tech level as either Germany or Russia, Galacia has a rating of fragile due to war damage

Portugal [Pacificanopia]
Tech level 3.5 Economic rating Fair (recession)

Romania [Abbassia]
Tech level 4 economic rating fragile (serious casualties, severe internal debt, excessive military to size of economy, retooling to peace, recession)

Russia [Vas Pokhoronim]
Tech level 5 economic rating Fair (serious casualties, severe internal debt, retooling to peace, infrastructure overstretched, recession)

Spain [Philanchez]
Tech level 3.5 economic rating fragile (significant casualties, severe internal and foreign debt, retooling to peace, infrastructure overstretched, recession)

Sweden [Verdant Archipelago]
Tech level 5 economic rating Good (recession)

Ukraine [Zactarn Prime] (Russian Dominion)
As per Russia

Yugoslavia [Independent Macedonia]
Tech level 3.5 economic rating struggling (severe casualties, serious foreign and internal debt by Serbia, weak infrastructure, political instability, recession,)


Middle East
Ottoman Empire [Ottoman Khaif]
Tech level 3.5 Economic rating Struggling (severe casualties, serious foreign and critical internal debt, infrastructure overstretched, excessive military to size of economy, political instability, recession, loss of territory)

Palestine [Rodenka]
Tech level 2 economic rating basket case (severely underdeveloped)

Persia [Ottoman-ruled]
As per Turkey but economic rating is basket case

*Zionist Independence Movement [Spooty]
stuck with whatever Palestine has for now

Africa
South Africa [Malkyer] (British Dominion)
Tech level 4 economic rating strong (recession)

Asia[/b]
China [Sharina]
Tech level 4 economic rating Fair (still developing and making more progress)

Korea [New Dornalia]
Tech level 3.5 economic rating Fair (still developing and making more progress)

Japan [Of the council of clan]
Tech level 5 Economic rating Strong (recession)

*Mongolia [Sel Appa]
tech level 1 economic rating basket case (essentially tribal subsistence herders with no significant industry or infrastructure)

Vietnam [NPC]
Tech level 3.5 economic rating good (recession) belongs to France

Oceania
Australia [Safehaven2/AltAus] (British Dominion)
Tech level 4 economic rating Good (recession)

*Zionist Independence Movement [Spooty]
stuck with whatever Palestine has for now

I don't actually own Palestine yet, or any land for that matter.

Hmm this is interesting. There was no unrestricted submarine warfare, so my plans for making money by mass producing shoddy merchant vessels for all sides has fallen through. Would it be possible for Sweden to institute a Marshall Plan style system to help Austria and Germany ant Turkey rebuild damaged infrestructure and help Russia develop? That combined with the beginings of the welfare state we all know and love should keep the recession from hitting us too hard...

Hmm this is interesting. There was no unrestricted submarine warfare, so my plans for making money by mass producing shoddy merchant vessels for all sides has fallen through. Would it be possible for Sweden to institute a Marshall Plan style system to help Austria and Germany ant Turkey rebuild damaged infrestructure and help Russia develop? That combined with the beginings of the welfare state we all know and love should keep the recession from hitting us too hard...

feel free to give all the economic aid you wish.. however, the Swedish economy isn't nearly big enough to bail out either of them. They need British help for that (Brits are the world lendors at the moment)

on another note, as Sweden, you hand out any Nobel Peace Prizes (hint, Roosevelt if the Washington Treaty is carried off probably should get one)

The British government has already lent money to Germany, The Ottomans and Russia and will begin to collect her debts shortly, as per an agreement with said nations.

Britain would be willing to lend Austria-Hungary money on the condition that it is repaid with all interest within a 15 year period and that the money is only spent on improving infrastructure and economy and not on defence.

Hah, I forgot all about the nobel prizes... odd because right now I'm reading about the iGNobel Prizes... And yes, Rousevelt would definately get one should this go through.

And quite frankly, Sweden isn't particularly interested in bailing them out. We're simply fighting our own recession by increasing government spending on foreign aid to stimulate the economy.

Given the labor shortage, I was also considering hiring civillians from poor nations and selling their contracts to the belligerants... it seems unethical, though. =)

I'm not too fussed about lending money at the moment anyway, damn recession!

Will probably use any war profits to fund building work on infrastructure in UK eg. railways etc. to provide work for the unemployed and improve the economy. Think Hitler in the 30's!

Britain also urges a peace prize for Roosevelt to be given, could have done with a few more years of war though to really build up the economy. Still one can't have everything...

South Africa [Malkyer] (British Dominion)
Tech level 4 economic rating strong (recession)

Sweet, now I'm an industrial power...time to build me a navy and implement my evil plans for world domination.

The US government buys up the Russian war debt held by US private bankers. (to prevent potential problems to the US economy should Russia default for some reason)

Roosevelt is able to get that debt refinanced, so the massive debt payable in 10 years is stretched out to a massive debt payable over 30 years at a lower interest rate (effectively reducing it by a third).

Similar measures are taken with the French and Spanish debts (refinancing) but although the US government acquires all of the debt held by private banks, refinancing does not occur for German, Italian, Spanish, Turkish or Rumanian debts. The US does forgive the debt held by the Yugoslavs however (reducing their overall debt owed by a quarter, the rest is a British problem) as it was relatively small compared to other debts owed.

I'm working on a massive post to put up detailing the actions of the First Duma and Senat [sic]. The Duma is full of Socialists and liberals, and although the Senat is much more conservative, there is a profoundly Leftist tilt even to what legislation manages to get through (thank labor agitation for that--it forces the industrial and commercial interests in the Senat to act as a swing bloc between the progressives and the aristocrats).
The reforms will mostly concentrate on infrastructure development, particularly electric power, transportation, and communication; military reform (artillery over horses, and lots of new ships); in turn encouraging heavy industrial development through state contracts and indirect subsidies; reform of banking and commercial law (or rather establishing commercial law--in RL Russia didn't have anything worthy of the name until the 1990's); and worker-protection laws. Oh, and LAND REFORM.
Stylistically, think New Deal.
I expect these to be expensive, but profitable in the long run, and the combination of relatively happy and cheap workers with an enforceable and regular business law ought to encourage both foreign and domestic investment.

The war had been quite devastating for Germany. Whole villages lost their men to the trenches and times were tough. The Junkers who had been running the country were beginning to lose power to businessmen and scientists. Also, with the introduction of Austria, which had become very anti-war, the Junkers lost much power in the Reichstag.

Thus, the way was paved for capitalism. German businessmen began to invest in all types of Austrian interests. There were also plans for the Coalition to expand beyond the borders of Eastern Europe. Germans also began to reenter Venezuela, this time, armed with paper and industry, rather than guns and war. With an already strong presence, German businesses were welcomed with open arms. Plans for new shipping lines were made to Maracaibo and Caracas. Entrepenuers also began to test the Zeppelin for transportation across oceans. However, that was at least several years away.

Until then, plans were made for the Berlin-Baghdad railway to stretch to Munich, then Vienna, then Sarajavo, then Istanbul, then Mosul, then to finish in Baghdad. Extensive railways were also planned to head into Russia. Plans were even made for as far away as China.

With the war's end, for the most part, many of the soldiers are being dimissed to go home and have fun. However, the government knows that these soldiers may or may not find jobs, and so it has started programs both to employ them and others. Roads, railroads, power plants, etc. are all under construction to try and get the economy moving.

A deal has been reached with the Pope where the Pope gets the modern-day Vatican City, which is recognised as an independent state. In return, the Pope is to stop interfering with Italian elections. Also, women have been given suffrage as have all other races. In another democratic move, the Senate is now to be elected by popular vote, as opposed to being appointed by the King.

anyone have any ideas how much the Jewish Colonial Trust and the Jewish National Fund had at this time? Cos i can't find any info.

Following Italy's lead France has begun construction projects in an effort to further industrialize the country and bring modern technology to the rural areas. Rail lines and roads are expanded, with more electric power stations and factories being built under government contract.

France has invested money in the new Model T and French business men are working on building their own cars. For the adventureous, French rail companies in Palestine need labor and managment.

France is also instituting land reforms in Indochina in an effort to allow the natives to have more of a stake in their own country. The Navy is also offering jobs at shipyards to help scrap out-dated warships and build new ones.

There is a movement in Parliament to give women the vote, but it is still the subject of much debate. No one is sure if it will pass.

In an effort to copy Germany otehr Frenchmen have begun working on their own zeppelin and blimp travel for commercial use.

OOC:

Right now, China is undertaking several deals and neogiations with multiple foreign powers to help China modernize to Westerner standards. I will post the revelant posts once they are completed to save me the time of re-typing everything all over again for my Economic Summary.

Before everyone starts getting excited and spends money....

this is the cost of the Great War (in 1908 dollars)
country total spent debt 1907 GDP
Austria Hungary $100 Billion $40 Billion $95 Billion
France $115 Billion $25 Billion $124 Billion
Germany $150 Billion $30 Billion $245 Billion
Italy $115 Billlion $50 Billion $70 Billion
Russia $160 Billion $40 Billion $75 Billion
Spain $20 Billion $10 Billlion $5 Billion
Ottoman Empire $50 Billion $30 Billion $12 Billion
Yugoslavia $10 Billion $8 Billion $5 Billion

(Russia, Spain and Ottoman Empire as estimates as no historical data exists according to sources, based on output amounts that are available)

Special Note: Hungary is the legal successor of Austria Hungary, which makes it $40 Billion in debt with a GDP of $15 Billion (estimated)

The US will pay off $1 Billion of the Yugoslav debt

Who is owed:
Half of the debts above are foreign debts (rest is internal borrowing). Of the Lendors:
UK 50%
USA 30%
Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium, Switzerland 4% each
misc others 4%

so we aren't talking small potatoes here.. this will be a drag of some economies, and a severe brake on the smaller ones.

Hmm... looks like I still have money :)

Also, how protected would the Zeppelin designs be at this time? I'm very protective about my toy.

France has begun to pay off it's foriegn debt to the U.S. and U.K. at the rate of 1.5 million U.S. dollars a year. This will most likely increase as the economy recovers and there is more money coming into the country.

Here's a few links to posts detailing the future of China.

1. British deal with China to help modernization.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9549587&postcount=156

2. German deal with China to help military.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9543895&postcount=175

3. German deal with China to help modernize.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9543989&postcount=65

4. Japan offers to help China modernize (waiting to finish with the Mongolian diplomat before negoiations start with Japan).

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9543965&postcount=64



I'm still waiting on a response from the USA and Russia, and I may be contacted by Colombia and Australia for trade deals and such (investment, industrialization, and the like). I may also be contacted by the Ottomans and a few other Coalition nations with trade offers, deals, and investments.

Thus, once these deals are either agreed upon, or fall through, then you will have a better idea of what growth and such China will experience during the "time-warp" that the mods are discussing.

Russia will be happy to increase trade with China, and furthermore to be integrated into the Eurasian Economic System currently being planned by our friends in Berlin.
OoC, I'm a terrible nuts-and-bolts guy, so the specifics of what we'd trade to China and what we'd get in return would bore me to death, even if I knew what they were. I know that at this time Russia's main exports were still foodstuffs the Chinese wouldn't eat (mostly dairy), but we have immense natural resources, and we're working on industrialization even now, and more later. We can build railways, and telegraphs, and supply mining engineers (that's where we might actually be better than the Germans) and investment.

The Ottomans will be repaying their debts and also they are setting up a number of five year plans to build up their industies , so by the Time warp. The Ottomans would have competely recovered and hope reach the 4.5 tech range.

Russia will be happy to increase trade with China, and furthermore to be integrated into the Eurasian Economic System currently being planned by our friends in Berlin.
OoC, I'm a terrible nuts-and-bolts guy, so the specifics of what we'd trade to China and what we'd get in return would bore me to death, even if I knew what they were. I know that at this time Russia's main exports were still foodstuffs the Chinese wouldn't eat (mostly dairy), but we have immense natural resources, and we're working on industrialization even now, and more later. We can build railways, and telegraphs, and supply mining engineers (that's where we might actually be better than the Germans) and investment.

Mining engineers, railroad construction, and trade with Russia with Chinese stuff like silk, manufactured goods, foodstuffs (to help Russia through harsh winters), etc. would be great to set up for 1908 - 1920.

Parthini']Hmm... looks like I still have money :)

Also, how protected would the Zeppelin designs be at this time? I'm very protective about my toy.
And here I was thinking that Tsiolkovsky and Zeppelin could be friends. I guess I'll have to buld my own . . .
And about that money. I know you be kickin some down to your friends in St. Petersburg and Consitantinotopola.
I mean, my debt's not as bad as it could be, but my GDP needs some serious increasing (from investment in industry and transportation mostly, I would think), and the Turks, our loyal friends, are completely screwed.

Cross-posted from the Main Thread.

Basically France is going to be trying to pay off it's debt and improving the economy, while strengthing ties with Italy, the U.K., and the U.S.A. Nothing really that major, except for improving conditions in Indochina for the natives and helping Palestine industrialize, train their military, and beome more powerful. I'm also selling some isalnds to the Australians...You'd have to ask him for the specifics. I'm also signing a mutual defense treaty with the U.S. some time after the Washington Conference cuncludes. You'll have to ask Galveston for more info.

Myself and Italy are breaking down trade barriers to allow for a lot of free trade to go back and forth.

The military will undergo massive re-organizing, incorporating lessons learned during the war, such as the use of fire and movement tactics, steel helmets, and greandes. The navy is going to try and be moderatly powerful and I hope to be the first nation with a good airforce.

That's about it.

the newly formed Republic will be working at top speed to modernise it's industry and military. As said before, Fench railway companies will be expanding the railways in Palestine, and the government is asking for other foriegn companies or countries to assist in industrialization.

OK, this is what Australia will be up to these next few years.

Like France said I have bought most of his Pacific and Indian ocean colonies. Over the next few years Australia will be investing heavil in bringing these colonies up to our standards and taking full advantage of the natural resources these colonies hold, like New Caledonia which alone hold more than a fourth of the worlds nickel supply. Trade will also be a focus point. With trade routes and reputations established by the Great War Australia is gonna continue to increase her exports to nations worldwide and expand the customer list. During the Great War the Australian Mercheant marine saw a boost in numbers as the government encouraged Australian flagged ships to carry Australia's goods oversea's at no cost to the government as the recipient as stated in all trade agreements made by Australia paid for all shipping costs. And so the Australia's merchant fleet is bigger than it was in real and continues to grow, now also servicing an expanding island empire.

Australia's major focus point will continue to be industrialization. DUring the Great War Australia industrialized rapidly spurred on by huge investments by the British government, private British investors, the Australian government and massive profits coming in from war ravaged Europe. This industrialization is to continue over the years. Millions in gold bullion and cash remained left over from the Great War and all that money was to be poured into industrializing and expanding the economy. Not only industrializing but increasing the infrastructure. One of Australia's problems, labor shortage, has been fixed by the massive influx of mmigrants from the great war.( between the Ottoman Empire and Russia alone its almost a million people they sent me that they didn't want. Plus all the people that are part of my country from the ex French islands. Labor is no longer a problem.) The rapid industrialization will of course cause social problems but nothing major.

Australia is also encouraging the opening of mroe and more higher education schools, (universities, colleges exc.). The government had started doing so before the Great War(Did in rl) but started slacking off with the Great War and the focus on Industrialization.

Militarily the army is to remain at its current levels although it will more than triple the amount of artillery and machine guns per unit as a lesson from the Great War. The navy will expand slightly and by 1915 will be a three dreadnaught navy. Minor fortifications will be built on the islands controlled by Australia with major fortifications on Papua, New Caledonia , Reunion and Wallis. Other islands will recieve smaller fortifications.

I think thats it.

The British are owed approximately $67 billion from all the belligrents in the war (one quarter of all owed debt) and currently has low debt repayment plans in place with the following nations:

Germany (15 years, $7.5 billion)
Russia (15 years, $10 billion)
Ottoman Empire (20 years, $7.5 billion)

Other nations are free to approach me for low interest debt repayment through my diplomatic/news thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9550614). Estimated debts are:

Hungary $23.75 Billion
France $31 Billion
Italy $17.5 Billion
Spain $1.25 Billion
Yugoslavia $1.25 Billion

They will be subject to standard interest rates until a low interest repayment option is negotiated.

The British are owed approximately $67 billion from all the belligrents in the war (one quarter of all owed debt) and currently has low debt repayment plans in place with the following nations:

Germany (15 years, $7.5 billion)
Russia (15 years, $10 billion)
Ottoman Empire (20 years, $7.5 billion)

Other nations are free to approach me for low interest debt repayment through my diplomatic/news thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9550614). Estimated debts are:

Hungary $23.75 Billion
France $31 Billion
Italy $17.5 Billion
Spain $1.25 Billion
Yugoslavia $1.25 Billion

They will be subject to standard interest rates until a low interest repayment option is negotiated.

The US government is curious where the British government is getting its debt figures, according to this
country total spent debt 1907 GDP
Austria Hungary $100 Billion $40 Billion $95 Billion
France $115 Billion $25 Billion $124 Billion
Germany $150 Billion $30 Billion $245 Billion
Italy $115 Billlion $50 Billion $70 Billion
Russia $160 Billion $40 Billion $75 Billion
Spain $20 Billion $10 Billlion $5 Billion
Ottoman Empire $50 Billion $30 Billion $12 Billion
Yugoslavia $10 Billion $8 Billion $5 Billion

the French only owe $25 Billion, and 5 Billion of that was owed to the US (and has been refinanced and partially paid already) so at most 12 Billion is owed Britian by France

I see what i've done..

I accidentally read the GDP for France ($124 billion) instead of the debt value, sorry.

France should owe $6.25 billion.

The values are off the basis that 50% of the debt figure is foreign debt and 50% of that is British, so Britain lends one quarter of a country's debt.

In order to facilitate a faster economic recovery and pay off the debt, France will be cutting military spending and reducing the size of the regular army. The navy building project will be slowed down to allow for more money to be spent towards debt and economic recovery.

Britan, you've been contacted on your thread.

Okay, as France has stated, Italy and France are knocking all trade barriers. However, the proposal that France has accepted goes far beyond that, and is quite radical at this point in history (or so I think...).

Italy and France are to remove all tarrifs on each other's goods. In addition, business laws are to be unified (or at the least, similar), money will be pooled for military research, and more railways and roads are to be built to link France. So researching subs/aircraft/etc. in France will be done with Italian help, and so both nations get the technologies. Finally, the intelligence services of France and Italy are to be essentially merged, with Italian information to be turned over to French analysts and vice-versa.

France has also asked to run joint exercises with Italy in the Med., and exercises in the Atlantic with Italy, France and the U.S. (although the U.S. has to agree to this). The economic integration between France and Italy is being offered to other nations, and based upon the last French telegram, Palestine would be a welcome member in this economic union. So, Palestine, if you want to join us, I suppose you can. I'm guessing France would support Spain entering into this union, but that is subject to French approval and Spanish interest.

Out of the interest of the French alliance, Italy will also reform its military to take advantage of the lessons learned, implementing similar reforms. The fleet will not be built up as quickly as planned, and will take a little bit longer.

New Zealands mine now, don't know how thatll affect my economy just yet. Also with the massive amounts of gold in Australia from Russia(he paid for most of the stuff he bought in gold, hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of gold a month.) a reserve is to be kept in gold. Almost like a rainy day fund, but also to back up the Pound.

Colombia would like to be included in the Med. maneuvers.

The US Navy will exercise with the French and Colombians in the Caribbean, but does not conduct exercises in European or Mediterranean waters.

However is does visit frequently French and Spanish ports (usually cruisers).

Reposted this from the main thread for review by the mighty Galveston Bay:

Here's what South Africa is going to be doing up until 1920:

1908-1920
Continuing building industry and lowering unemployment, as well as major investments into education. The goal is to have South Africa be an economic power with European and American living standards by 1918. Although the law code will be liberalized, unofficial segregation will exist. Blacks will be kept from voting and political action via biased literacy tests and loopholes in the citizenship laws.

1911
Prime Ministerial elections, Louis Botha wins by a landslide.

1913-14
Worker's strikes, suppressed by military. The next year, former general Christiaan de Wet will lead an insurrection against Botha's government. The rebellion is crushed in a few weeks by an overwhelming force of government soldiers.

1916
PM Elections, Louis Botha wins and appoints Jan Smuts as Deputy.

1919
Louis Botha dies of natural causes, Jan Smuts takes over. Elections will be held as scheduled in 1921.

I forgot some stuff I was thinking up when I posted the French-Italian agreement.

As it appears we will leap forward to 1920 or so fairly shortly, the Italian plan from now to them is to get the south of Italy industrialised, promote a democratic (and more stable) government, and increase Franco-Italian ties.

Here's a short timeline

Now-Recession, construction of roads, power plants, etc. The most aggressively expanding areas are rural areas. Education reform kicks off in earnest and several colleges are founded. French is to be the primary secondary language, considering the Franco-Italian alliance.

1910-a good portion of these roads/railways/power plants are finished, and concentration on industrialising fully begins. Initial plants are to be for exportable products, mainly to France.

1915-The Koreans (according to my plan when I was Korea) should finish building a Wankel Rotary Engine. Being cheaper, Italy will seek to buy rights for the engine, putting it into mass-production on automobiles. Also, if at all possible, I hope to have Libyan oil discovered.

1920-If Libyan oil is discovered, Italy should have some strong economic growth and all the more incentive to build a stronger navy: to keep the oil flowing from Libya. It will also provide all the more cash to fund this navy with.

If no Libyan oil, Italy's economy still expands on possible export-powered growth. Just not as rigorously.

sorry, no Libyan oil... I am sticking with historical oil discoveries because the need to look was generated by market forces and at this point, oil is REALLY cheap and sometimes its more costly to look then what its worth. Also technology determines some oil finds (deep drilling technologies etc)

Korea has arranged for purchases of South African Gold to back up the Won, and it has chartered a shiny new Bank of Korea to keep the currency in order, and to provide my people with more in the way of credit and cash. I have proposed the creation of a joint-chemical venture with the Aussies (no word from them yet) and I am moving along with building up my healthcare system, which should be finished by 1910. Also, by then, Korean Heavy industries should be capable of competition, as should textiles (thanks to China, we have a factory to make machinery for textile production and a textile mill).

We will also need more electricity, something I plan to do. And, I plan to create a National University and to enrich the Korean Technology Institute, to gather as much Korean brainpower as possible at home so that we can develop at a faster pace.

EDIT:

Well, since everybody is beginning to move up.... my plans. Sorta inspired by the other plans in the main thread, but hopefully, it is original enough.

1912- Gojong dies, and names Prince Gang as heir. Before death, announces beginning of electrification and joint ventures with Australia in chemicals.

New political parties form, the United Progress Party (liberals, reform from above people, led by Rhoo Joon) and Korea First Party (conservatives, led by Kim Mong Ryong). Socialists gather, but not in any strong numbers, inspired by their Russian counterparts. Elections result in victory for Progress Party, for another six year Congressional term.

1915- Wankel Engine Finished....rights licensed to Italy. Major industries up and running. First unions begin organizing, meet resistance from government. Korean Motor Company founded to provide tractors, cars and trucks, though others are allowed to compete. National University established in Seoul.

1916- Emperor Gang announces Armed Forces reforms. Pushes for studies of automobile use in battle and for an air force, zepplin or fixed-wing based, plus a bigger navy and merchant marine.

1918- Elections result in another victory for Progress Party. Socialists, inspired by industrial conditions, organize to form Korean Workingmans' Party (party is small, but makes others nervous). In response, Congress issues labor laws mandating a minimum wage and "good working conditions" (undefined).

South African gold? Russia is not pleased . . .

South African gold? Russia is not pleased . . .

Well, Korea is still open to purchases of Russian gold, Good Ol' AU is AU. OOCly, I just did it cause South Africa has a ton of gold.

Awesome plan, Fluffy. France will go along with it.

How much gold do you have left Russia? You spent a shitload during the war just on me.

BUt about the war and the trading, would you like to continue trading with Australia?

Good. Now, if you'll do this and this and this, it'll suite my plans to revive the Roman Emp...I mean, our plans to economically unify Europe.

Burgundy Events, 1908-1920:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=441245

Good. Now, if you'll do this and this and this, it'll suite my plans to revive the Roman Emp...I mean, our plans to economically unify Europe.

Sorry, but your plans will get in the way of the new Napoleon. :D

France and Italy, and Spain... you can build the navy that historically your nation had in 1920.... I have posted links before on where to find information on ships. Check the military thread for those links.

I have quite a list of things that I plan for China to do between 1908 and 1920. It may be a long read, so beware. :p Hopefully this list will cover EVERYTHING that needs to be covered for the time-warp and what lies in store for China by 1920.

Without further ado, here we go...

1. China's current status.
2. China's plans for the civilian sector.
3. China's economy growth.
4. China's military stuff.
5. International deals and alliances with China.
6. China's overall goals for 1920.
7. Miscellanous stuff.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. China's current status.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

China is currently at Tech Level 4, with a Fair economy. The economy is still developing, and China did not suffer a recession like the rest of Europe and the majority of the world. China has entered into several major deals with several foreign powers, while gaining a potential enemy. China has not engaged in any major military action, or suffered any warfare during the Great War. A potential war was averted at Indochina, but China chooses to maintain its troop deployment near Indochina as a buffer aganist any Indochinan invasion.

China has signed trade deals with Britain, Germany, Korea, Japan, Ottomans, and several other nations. It is expected with major investment and trading taking place, China is poised to become wealthy and help pay off the debts of Britain, Germany, Japan, and Ottomans. This in turn will help the world's economy, while boosting China to Westerner standards of living and industrialization.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. China's plans for the civilian sector.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

China is planning to undertake multiple major public works projects, which will be able to take place with the British selling heavy machinery, construction equipment, engineers, and blueprints for factories.

One project is to connect all major Chinese cities and trading hubs through railroad and regular road. This will allow for a much more efficient trade system where mass quanities of goods can be delivered via railroad, while allowing Chinese people ease of travel in automobiles on the regular roads. This will open up millions upon millions of new consumers and dozens of large marketplaces for international and domestic trade and supplies.

Another project is to construct massive dams on several major rivers such as the Yellow and Yangtze Rivers. This will greatly aid farming and irrigation efforts, while leaving the option open for hydroelectric power. It is believed that China possesses 1/4 of the world's potential for hydroelectric power, which should help immensely in electrification efforts.

A third project is the electrification of Chinese cities by introducing electric lamps, traffic lights, interior lighting, electric railroads, trolleys, potential subways, electric factory machinery, and so forth. The British have offered to contribute electrical generating equipment, and engineers to develop electric generation plants. The electrification will also help Chinese factories immensely, boosting China's industry capacity by factors of magnitude.

A fourth project is construction of large artificial harbors to help trade, shipbuilding, and China's growing shipping sector. The harbors will be built or dug on good harbor sites, or act as expansions to natural harbors already existing within Chinese coastlines.

A fifth project is the construction of no less than fifty universities throughout China to greatly aid higher-level education, enabling China to finally have an intellectual elite matching the United States, Britain, and Germany. This will allow China to construct and develop high-tech industries by 1915 - 1925, including an aerospace sector, armored vehicle sector, radio sector, and so forth. This effort is going to employ British and German assistance, as Britain has promised engineers, scientists, and teachers towards this endeavour. Germany has promised military educators and scientists, as well as construction aid.

Several other miscellanous projects include construction of river-spanning bridges for roads and railroad lines as well as the establishment of several rudimentary highways connecting Peking, Shanghai, Canton, Tienstin, Luo Yang, among others. Another miscellanous project is establishing a nationwide telegraph wire system matching the extent of the national telegraph system of the United States.

China is also planning on having at least 15 to 20 million loyal Chinese settlers migrate to Mongolia, smothering the Mongolian people into a small minority, thus making Mongolian independence extremely difficult to achieve. According to the CIA Factbook, Mongolia has approximately 2.7 million people in 2005, which means it might have 1 million or so in 1920. This idea is similiar to the principle of Israeli and Jewish settlers settling in Palestinian lands of Gaza and West Bank.

China is also going to promote population growth, with the goal of reaching somewhere around 600 million by 1920. This will be done so through population incentive laws and reward programs.

As an aside... China's current population in 2005 is approximately 1.3 - 1.4 billion, and China was approximately 450 million in 1900. Thus, China should have gained roughly 80 - 100 million people every 10 years to arrive at 1.3 - 1.4 billion by 2005.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. China's economy growth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

China expects to promote massive economic growth from several factors, including the public works projects and foreign investment.

First, Britain and Germany has promised substantial aid to China in terms of manufactured goods like machinery, engineers to help construct more factories in China, scientists and professors to begin teaching at universities, and so forth. Not only that, but with the conclusion of the Great War, there is a surplus of goods in Europe that far exceeds consumer demand in Europe. However, the demand is quite high in China, which means that China will be the salvation of the West, helping the West recover from its recession. Most of the foreign investment and such will be repaid in Chinese goods and material.

Second, the undertaking of the massive public works projects will open up millions of new jobs for those less fortunate Chinese peasants and laborers. This should help reduce the unemployment rate in China, and also with millions of people being employed, it increases potential tax revenue. Not only that, but with millions of Chinese people working at their newfound jobs, these people will be able to purchase luxuries and commodities that they could not do so before, such as automobiles, jewelery, fancy clothes, telegraphs, radios, and so forth. This should increase and encourage China's domestic economy to develop, as Chinese companies will set up factories and shops to produce and sell the commodities and luxuries to the newly employed workforce.

Third, with the electrification of Chinese cities, homes, and factories, it should boost China's economy by a considerable amount. Chinese businesses will be able to stay open late at night due to electric lamps, Chinese homes will be able to utilize electric appliances and equipment such as stoves and refrigators, and Chinese factories will be able to maintain a constant output 24 hours a day with electric lighting and electric-driven factory machinery. The factories will be able to maintain its output during the winter months as they will require far less coal per factory, thus allowing coal to be used for other more immediate uses and applications such as power generation or heating purposes.

Finally, with the discovery of oil by the Ottomans, and the trade deal between China and Ottomans, in which the Ottomans supply China with oil in exchange for Chinese manufactured goods and Chinese support in rebuilding the Ottoman Empire, this should serve as another boost to the Chinese economy. China will drift away from coal as a major source of non-electric-generation energy and replace it with oil for its automobiles and naval vessels. Oil should prove to be another useful industrialization tool for China to modernize to meet its goals by 1920.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. China's military stuff.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

China has been contacted by several nations wishing to aid China in its defense and military improvement.

The Italians promised China that they were to build two 50,000 ton shipyards in Shanghai. The shipyards will be completed by 1910 at the latest (Unsure whether these shipyards have been completed by now or not). The Italians have also promised China three Savoy (I may be mistaken) dreadnoughts / battleships upon the conclusion of the Great War.

The Germans have promised substantial military aid, especially officers and military training. They have also promised China to provide German weapons and possibly the ability to manufacture German weapons within China's own weapons factories.

The British have agreed to aid China in building additional shipyards, as well as teaching China how to build more on its own. The British have also agreed to train China in naval warfare, and aid in Chinese construction of a Chinese Navy. Britain may also send military officers and British military equipment.

China plans on expanding its Army to 1 million troops by 1920, as more military training, equipment, and experience takes place. China plans this expansion so to secure its lands once and for all aganist potential foreign aggression and deny a chance of another "Boxer Rebellion" or "Opium Wars" from occurring again. The expansion will be financed partly by the inevitable large scale profits that the Chinese people will be experiencing under new trade deals and such.

China plans on constructing its very first destroyers, cruisers, and possibly a dreadnought or two by 1920. This effort will be aided somewhat by the expertise of the British officers and engineers, and German military training. China also plans on constructing several more shipyards so that it may be able to field a modernized Navy that can safely protect Chinese waters from any aggression.

China plans on testing the feasibility of automobiles and airplanes (China will call them airships) by 1920. China plans on acquiring the know-how to construct its own automobiles and airships, allowing it to explore the military potential of these technologies. China also is planning on having several zeppelins, with German help, and possibly some scout airships.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. International deals and alliances with China.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

China has gained a tremendous amount of potential friends in the short time between the Boxer Rebellion and the Great War, while gaining at least one potential enemy.

China has signed an alliance with Korea and Japan. China is on good terms with Russia, Germany, and Ottomans. China is looking to improve relations with Britain (this is certain with the upcoming British investment and aid) and the USA (to have a friend in the Americas). China is on friendly terms with Italy due to their shipyard building efforts, and possibly some trade. China is neutral towards most other nations, but looking to improve relations with Australia, Norway, and Colombia. However, China is starting to look upon France as a potential enemy due to France's shifty politics and dealings regarding Indochina, which China believes is rightfully Chinese.

China's Stances:

Allies:

Japan
Korea

Cordial / Very Friendly:

Germany
Russia
Ottomans

Friendly:

Britain
Italy
USA

Neutral:

Everyone else

Wary:

France

Hostile:

None

War:

None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. China's overall goals for 1920.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

China plans on achieving several things by the time 1920 rolls around.

First, China aims to reach Tech Level 5 with the massive influx of university-building, a growing intellectual elite, more Chinese scientists, improving infrastructure, electrification of Chinese cities, enhanced transportation networks, and so forth.

Second, China aims for an Economy of at least Very Strong or Thriving due to massive trade potential, multiple Westerner nations trading with China, the Chinese people gaining many more jobs, more modernization of Chinese homes, more demand for domestic goods, improvement of Chinese factories, China helping the world recover from recession, and a plethora of other things I have stated above.

Third, China wants to have a decent Navy by 1920. A Navy that is more than capable of defending Chinese waters. Some destroyers, cruisers, torpedo boats, PT Boats, and perhaps several battleships and submarines.

Fourth, China desires to have an Army equal to Westerner standards of training and equipment. China wants to have 1 million soldiers by 1920 to be able to effectively defend China's rather large expanse of territory. China is approximately the size of the United States, and a 1 million soldier force is a tiny fraction of China's possibly 500 or 600 million populace by 1920. This fraction would be significantly smaller than what the French, British, Germany, and other Westerner nations are able to field in proportion to their populaces.

Fifth, China seeks to hopefully reach Westerner levels of technology, modernization, and industrialization by 1920, or 1925 at the latest.

Sixth, China wants to acquire automobile and aircraft technologies between 1908 and 1918 so that it can build its own automobiles and aircraft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Miscellanous stuff.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are several relevant links to posts proving the British, German, and Japanese deals, as well as potential Norway and Australian deals.

1. British deal with China to help modernization.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost....7&postcount=156

2. German deal with China to help military.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost....5&postcount=175

3. German deal with China to help modernize.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost....89&postcount=65

4. Japan offers to help China modernize (waiting to finish with the Mongolian diplomat before negoiations start with Japan).

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost....65&postcount=64

Also, you can refer to my Chinese Events thread for additional proof of diplomacy, trade deals, and the like.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=432834

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phew! A lot of writing and brain-racking. I hope this has been helpful in determining what will happen for China by 1920. I'm also posting this in the Main Thread.

Please share your feedback and thoughts on this. :)

see Britains post for future developments on the main thread.

I forgot to add several other things that China would also like to do by 1920.

1. Acquire the Wankel Engine from Korea, either through trade, a deal, or espionage.

2. Build one Aircraft Carrier for China's scout planes, and develop a shipbuilding capacity to construct more aircraft carriers in the future. (1920 onwards)

3. Model the education system after the USA's system of multi-level schools. Pre-kindgarten, kindgarten, elementary, middle school, high school, and college / university. China will construct over 50 universities throughout China, and probably thousands of pre-schools (includes kindgarten), elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools.

4. China's top priority is to seek an alliance with Germany and possibly a military alliance with the other members of the Coalition (Russia, Ottomans, etc.)

5. One more economic boost for China will come from the development and participation in the Eastern Coalition (Trade alliance of China, Ottomans, Germany, Russia, Greece, and most of the former Coalition members).

I forgot to add several other things that China would also like to do by 1920.

1. Acquire the Wankel Engine from Korea, either through trade, a deal, or espionage.

2. Build one Aircraft Carrier for China's scout planes, and develop a shipbuilding capacity to construct more aircraft carriers in the future. (1920 onwards)

3. Model the education system after the USA's system of multi-level schools. Pre-kindgarten, kindgarten, elementary, middle school, high school, and college / university. China will construct over 50 universities throughout China, and probably thousands of pre-schools (includes kindgarten), elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools.

4. China's top priority is to seek an alliance with Germany and possibly a military alliance with the other members of the Coalition (Russia, Ottomans, etc.)

5. One more economic boost for China will come from the development and participation in the Eastern Coalition (Trade alliance of China, Ottomans, Germany, Russia, Greece, and most of the former Coalition members).

thats pretty expensive... I have no idea how much that will cost, but look up how much it costs to run schools in that time period by looking up a state education budget in say New York State in 1920 to get a feel for it. I do have a problem with the carrier idea.... simply because thats pretty expensive too and it takes a lot of technicians to run a carrier and its air group. Even the 1980s era Soviets had problems coming up with the skilled crews to runa carrier.

Also, I am not sure kindergarten has been invented yet, or pre school... I believe that Kindergarten is a 1940s idea, and that pre school is a 1960s idea so I don't think the US has them yet either. Landgrant colleges though are pretty good, look up how for example the University of Kansas or Idaho got started for how much those cost.

how do i join in this thread????

representing the Arab League (Arab States)

TG Hrstlovakia, tell him what nation you want, theres a list of untaken nations on the main thread which i can't find right now.

thats pretty expensive... I have no idea how much that will cost, but look up how much it costs to run schools in that time period by looking up a state education budget in say New York State in 1920 to get a feel for it. I do have a problem with the carrier idea.... simply because thats pretty expensive too and it takes a lot of technicians to run a carrier and its air group. Even the 1980s era Soviets had problems coming up with the skilled crews to runa carrier.

Also, I am not sure kindergarten has been invented yet, or pre school... I believe that Kindergarten is a 1940s idea, and that pre school is a 1960s idea so I don't think the US has them yet either. Landgrant colleges though are pretty good, look up how for example the University of Kansas or Idaho got started for how much those cost.

Understood.

Scrap the Kindgarten and pre-school until the 1930's or 1940's. (Probably during the next "Time-Warp")

I thought one aircraft carrier would be reasonable, given that France, Britain, and other nations are making 4 - 8 carriers by 1920, and with British help, China's shipyards and shipbuilding knowledge would improve by leaps and bounds.

The funds for the public works projects, construction of elementary through high schools, and the building of universities will probably be paid in Chinese goods and "debt repayment" to the West, helping the West reduce their debts and stop the recession.

Well, I'm going red...

So basically, the Reds are gonna seize all the stuff the Corporations had and just use it as their own. Also, I plan to have about 30 commercial Zeppelins and about 20 military, with say, 14 with 5 planes (Akron types)

Understood.

Scrap the Kindgarten and pre-school until the 1930's or 1940's. (Probably during the next "Time-Warp")

I thought one aircraft carrier would be reasonable, given that France, Britain, and other nations are making 4 - 8 carriers by 1920, and with British help, China's shipyards and shipbuilding knowledge would improve by leaps and bounds.

The funds for the public works projects, construction of elementary through high schools, and the building of universities will probably be paid in Chinese goods and "debt repayment" to the West, helping the West reduce their debts and stop the recession.

I have no problems with the British carriers, but really serious reservations about anyone else except the Japanese and the US having more than 1, if even that.

I have no problems with the British carriers, but really serious reservations about anyone else except the Japanese and the US having more than 1, if even that.

Gotcha. I was just wondering as the British player has agreed to a deal to help China develop its Navy, shipbuilding, and expand shipyards (in addition to teaching China how to build efficient shipyards).

I have no problems with the British carriers, but really serious reservations about anyone else except the Japanese and the US having more than 1, if even that.
According to this site ( http://www.navy.ru/history/hrn11-e.htm), Russia had seaplane-carrying transport ships (quite a few of them, apparently) as early as 1915. Not true aircaft carriers, exactly, and the planes were only reconnaissance, as far as I can tell, but . . .

Parthini']Well, I'm going red...

So basically, the Reds are gonna seize all the stuff the Corporations had and just use it as their own. Also, I plan to have about 30 commercial Zeppelins and about 20 military, with say, 14 with 5 planes (Akron types)

does this affect the Jews at the heads of corperations within Germany?

According to this site ( http://www.navy.ru/history/hrn11-e.htm), Russia had seaplane-carrying transport ships (quite a few of them, apparently) as early as 1915. Not true aircaft carriers, exactly, and the planes were only reconnaissance, as far as I can tell, but . . .

thats correct, most of the belligerents had seaplane carriers during World War I... so I can live with a Russian carrier, although its usefulness is limited severely by Russian geography. The Russians also had some damned talented sailors during that war as well, especially considering how outnumbered they were in the Baltic

Like I said, my Carriers are gonna be Zeppelins :)

Uh, Spooty, ignore my timeline, the Jews might not have taken over yet. Wait and see.

Parthini']Like I said, my Carriers are gonna be Zeppelins :)

Uh, Spooty, ignore my timeline, the Jews might not have taken over yet. Wait and see.

wait, i thought the Commies were taking over, not the Jewish, or do you mean that the Jews might not make it to the head of certain companies?

Yeah. Like I said, I will have a timeline out tommorow, latest.

Would we really have carriers anyway as this great war unlike the real one didn't see the use of aircraft really.

*waves sheepishly at Economods* I'm back, FYI, for when you're doing updates to 1920.

And technically only two nations really believed in Aircraft Carriers by 1942:

Japan: Because Aircraft Carriers were exempt from tonage requirements in the post-WWI naval arms limitation treaty, allowing Japan to build a large naval force without violating the 5-5-3 rule.

USA: Because Japan had sunk most of the battleships in their Pacific Fleet, and that still didn't keep them from thinking "Battleships are Better" until Midway.

Other nations:

Great Britain: Had a few aircraft carriers, however relied on ships of the line to blockade the German Navy.

Germany: Had a couple of aircraft carriers, but concentrated mostly on building large battleships and battlecrusers. Especially those that could slip through the British blockade altogether.

So, I'd suggest that if you are considering a large number of carriers, have a very good reason for why you are abandoning 500+ years of military doctorine that suggests that you measure a ships worth by the size of the guns mounted on it.

*waves sheepishly at Economods* I'm back, FYI, for when you're doing updates to 1920.

And technically only two nations really believed in Aircraft Carriers by 1942:

Japan: Because Aircraft Carriers were exempt from tonage requirements in the post-WWI naval arms limitation treaty, allowing Japan to build a large naval force without violating the 5-5-3 rule.

USA: Because Japan had sunk most of the battleships in their Pacific Fleet, and that still didn't keep them from thinking "Battleships are Better" until Midway.

Other nations:

Great Britain: Had a few aircraft carriers, however relied on ships of the line to blockade the German Navy.

Germany: Had a couple of aircraft carriers, but concentrated mostly on building large battleships and battlecrusers. Especially those that could slip through the British blockade altogether.

So, I'd suggest that if you are considering a large number of carriers, have a very good reason for why you are abandoning 500+ years of military doctorine that suggests that you measure a ships worth by the size of the guns mounted on it.


The RN began using carriers during World War I to provide a counter to German Zeppelins, and to provide themselves with their own scouting capability. They even had one available for Jutland that only missed the battle because of poorly directed orders. The first carrier raids began in 1917 when the British launched airstrikes at German Zeppelin sheds at Wilhemshaven. By the end of the first World War, the British had 3 converted battlecruisers in service as carriers (Furious, Glorious, Couragous), plus several converted liners and colliers. By 1925, both the Americans and Japanese had a carrier to experiment with, and were converting battlecruisers into carriers as well. The US Navy was using them in fleet problems from the beginning, and conducted practice air raids against Panama and Pearl Harbor in the early 1930s.

As the need for scouting was evident during the Great War in this timeline, and Zeppelins aren't a strong point for anyone but the Germans, it is reasonable that the RN, USN, IJN would develop carriers for their scouting needs considering the vast oceans they patrol.

Now torpedo bombers saw use in 1911, wider use in 1916-18, and dive bombers saw use in 1921 (US Marines developed them). So combat aircraft from carriers are an easy step too.

So why are there carriers now? The USN and RN still need a fleet scouting capability, and so do the Japanese. I suppose the French, Italians and others could use them too. The USN has a hemispheric defense mission, vast territories of the Pacific to patrol, and perceives its main enemy to be Germany with the possibility of fighting in both oceans at once against other possible enemies as well. The RN has to worry about the League in the Med and Atlantic, and potentially several enemies in the Pacific. The IJN has similar issues, a vast territory to patrol, and a limit to the number of hulls it can afford to man. So carriers carrying scouting and torpedo planes, and later fighters and divebombers are a natural development.

As far as an economic update goes, that will be this weekend, I have to do some research and some extropolation based on chances in the timeline.

I think it would be good to wait until Monday to do the update and just update at 1920. That way people can still change things around, etc.

Germany has several good reasons (in this RP) to be using Zeppelin Carriers. First, Germany has mostly abandoned Battleships as they are slow and proved to be more of a liablility, as was shown in the Great War.

Secondly, as I the player think Zeppelins are really cool, I had the Navy unhistorically help Count Zeppelin out a ton.

In my civil war, I plan to have Zeppelins be used to scout out communist resistors in the big cities, and then attach planes with machine guns to kill them. Then, I think I will have Eckner join the communists (need to find a reason) and he will build them for the commies. Tanks and all that good stuff will come around.

That and Zeppelins can fly over the alps... I MEAN, mountains....

If it hasn't be posted he yet, Italy and Korea have worked out an agreement concerning the Wankel engine (in this timeline the "Joseon engine," I think). Italy will get to make its super-cheap economy car with it, and in exchange Italy will build a few automobile plants in Korea. Italy will also be able to export the super-cheap car to Korea. Korea, likewise, will export whatever cars it wants into Italy.

The cheap car, what I am calling the "people's car," will be exported to everyone that will buy it, and I hope to export it to China (if China will let me). If popular, the company, which I am calling Italian Automobile Works (and is not a part of FIAT), will sell truck models, etc. France, as close by and cheap to export to, should see some exports if it becomes popular.

As a last minute thing, I hope to modify the Italian laws to allow for more social mobility. I feel that this has been a great thing about America, where the "rags to riches" type thing is more common than in Europe.

EDIT:

Other nations have posted that they feel that free trade will cause minor depressions and that the lack of tarrifs will substantially reduce government income. I feel that this is the opposite, and that free trade agreements open your country to specialize based upon what it is good at. If you are good at car manufacturing, you will focus on that, and you will not worry if your textile industry, which cannot compete on the world market, fails. I believe even the World Bank has shown that nations that are more open to trade have shown faster income growth.

Can anyone tell me how is Romania's economy doing??

This is another addition to what Australia is going to be doing in the jump.

Regarding industrialization by 1920 I want to open a large twin aircraft plant to produce twin engine commercial aircraft in Adelaide with some other smaller plants around the country. With this of course comes factories for specific parts like engines exc. With such a large country, Australia itself is huge plus all the islands I control aircraft are to become increasingly important for transportation exc and so airfields will begin opening up across Australian territory. Also multiple tractor factories will be opening up to pump out all kinds of tractors to help increase production of agricultural products.

Australia, that kind of industrial expasion is going to give you debt almost as bad as some of the war debts from the Great War. It takes capital to do that kind of stuff, and decades. Or you do it like the Soviets did historically, with forced labor (which isn't an option in Australia).

Even with thirteen years? Maybe roll it back a bit, just the one large plant in Adelaide and limited tractor production. And capitol shouldn't be that big of a problem, running a large surplus from the trade, most of which was paid for up front in gold.

Even with thirteen years? Maybe roll it back a bit, just the one large plant in Adelaide and limited tractor production. And capitol shouldn't be that big of a problem, running a large surplus from the trade, most of which was paid for up front in gold.

historically it took the Soviet Union 2 decades, South Korea about the same amount of time, China has taken three decades (with substantial setbacks along the way), Brazil about has long...

so yes, 13 years is rushing things, even considering you started about 1905

GB get on chatzy so I can talk without clogging this thread up.

Albania has an expatriot population of greater then 300,000 in Greece, the Slav/Serbian states, Western Europe and the United States, which send money and goods back to their families. As this would be Albania's greatist source of revenue it is quite important that I know how to measure it.

Can anyone help me in that respect?

Economic Stats for Albania

Albania has slightly less then a million people (unless one counts the expatriots, at which point Albania has well over a million people).

13 percent of the population lives in towns. 87 percent live in rural areas

Illiteracy is quite high.

About 90 percent of the countries peasants practice subsistence agriculture using out dated or ancient methods and tools (such as wooden plows), Much of the countries richest farmland lies under water in malaria infested swamps, which have to be drained if the land is to be exploited. Large amounts of land in the south and interior are controled by semifeudal reactionary landowners.

Albania currently lacks a banking system, a railroad, a modern port, a university, or a modern press (the country has very few newspapers).

In north Albania government functions are preformed through the Roman Catholic Church.

The life expectancy for men is 38 years and Albania has the highest birthrate and infant mortality rate in Europe (not counting Russia).

Current exports are animal skins, cheese, livestock, and eggs. The value of Albania's imports outstrip it's exports by five times (mainly foodstuffs and metal tools).

Currently untapped resources are hydroelectric potential, oil, bitumen, lignite, iron, chromite, copper, bauxite, manganese, and some gold.

Can anyone tell me how is Romania's economy doing??

Romania at this time supports a mediorce economy with a developed railway infastructure, plenty of Industry near Bucharest/Constanta and a viable education system in both cities and the rual countryside. However, to finance the expansion of these various projects, Romania has borrowed heavily from Western European countries and has racked a large amount of debt. Furthermore, unequal land distribution between peseants and land owners leave a large protion of Romanian farmers in abject poverty and in a state of unrest.

Thus, unless land reforms are passed by Parliment and the debt to Western Nations is payed off (I'm sure they'll be knocking on your door soon, as many of these nations still have their own debts to pay off), the Romania Economy could fall into a state of depression or possibly total collapse.

You can probably see most of these bulletins in the Brazil News thread but here are some of the major things happening in my economy.

--Land reform is under process to appease the peasant farmers.
--Advanced agricultural equipment is beginning to arrive from Russia.
--The capital from increased agricultural produce will go towards creating a huge industrial region in the Matto Grosso district geared towards the production of steel, munitions and coal mining mainly, though there will be many other side projects.
--The Amazon is being deforested within a strict allowance and a special police force has been set up to halt illegal logging.
--Major industries and public services are now fully under government control, though private enterprise is allowed under a market socialist doctrine.
--Political freedoms and democracy (to a point) are secure and elections every 7 years will ensure a balanced government unnaffected by brief changes in public opinion.
--Workers rights including the right to strike have been enshrined into the country's constitution.

Definitely going off Gold Standard for domestic commerce (a lot of the Left wants to do away with money entirely anyway), since I'll be assuming something like half the debt burden of the Ottoman Empire, as well as building the historical Red Fleet, a whole mess of tbronniki and similar armored combat vehicles, and concurrently industrializing and electrifying the country.

And what do you mean, slave labor? The Union is the Worker's Paradise!

Historically, in fact, morale was unbelievably high during the early years of the Soviet Union, and socialists immigrated from all over the world to pitch in with expertise and labor (almost making up for the mass exodus of counter-revolutionaries--which probably isn't quite as bad in this timeline anyway, since the government from 1912-1920 is lot more moderate than the Bolsheviks ever were). The hours were long, and the pay virtually non-existent, and accidents happened a lot as the result of inexperience and lack of education (as well as, believe it or not, misguided enthusiasm). But I think there's at least a sound possibility of having achieved some serious progress by 1920.

I don't know about any extreme progress by 1920. After all, you're making tons of tanks, building a large fleet, industrialising, and taking up half of the Turks' war debt. You may make serious agricultural advances, perhaps some major industrial ones, but I think you'll get some serious inflation due to shelling out cash to everyone else.

If you can correct some of the issues with the historical Soviet Union (not counting mass murderers like Lenin and Stalin), I'd say by like 1930 Russia is fully modernised. But if not, you still have some serious economic issues, steel production and power production asside.

If it hasn't be posted he yet, Italy and Korea have worked out an agreement concerning the Wankel engine (in this timeline the "Joseon engine," I think). Italy will get to make its super-cheap economy car with it, and in exchange Italy will build a few automobile plants in Korea. Italy will also be able to export the super-cheap car to Korea. Korea, likewise, will export whatever cars it wants into Italy.

The cheap car, what I am calling the "people's car," will be exported to everyone that will buy it, and I hope to export it to China (if China will let me). If popular, the company, which I am calling Italian Automobile Works (and is not a part of FIAT), will sell truck models, etc. France, as close by and cheap to export to, should see some exports if it becomes popular.


I think I agreed to that, actually. And yes, it is the Joseon Engine. After all, a good artist must pay homage to his patrons; likewise, ICly the scientists at the KTI named their engine in honor of the dynasty backing them.

And our government chartered Korean Motor Company might sell the cars in Italy under any number of names. I am tempted to use an RL name like Hyundai or Daewoo, and ICly assume these are agents in this timeline of the KMC that have been authorized to sell Korean Autos abroad, though I am open to other ideas.

Also, I assume by 1920 that my chemicals, steel, car, and textile industries are pretty strong exports in Korea, though I am a bit fuzzy on this.

Belgian Economic Highlights 1908-1920

- A laissez-faire based market system has been established.

- Healthcare is managed by a Private-Public Partnership, in which private companies are granted licences to build hospitals, or other facilities, and to manage maintenance and infrastructure services upon there completion. However, all health services in the facility continue to be paid for and administered either by the Government or a Private Company.

- All major tax systems have been scrapped and a flat income tax of 10% has been put in it's place.

- Welfare programs are run completely by Private Industry. Employers and/or Private Investment firms provide citizens with a wide variety of pension plans, retirement accounts, Hedge Funds, 401ks and other various plans.

- Fabrique Nationale, along with other Government owned/subsidized companies are fully-Privatized

- Tariffs on Imported products are reduced or scrapped altogether

The US remains technically on the Gold Standard in that you can redeem Greenbacks for gold, but there are a lot more Greenbacks in circulation that gold in the vaults so really the dollar basically floats with some firm backing.

Hey Galveston, (or anyone I guess for that matter) any idea what either Hungary's population is at in 1920 or when my economy should be back to roughly pre-war periods?

Korea uses a bi-metal standard for supporting the Won, and allows Won notes to be redeemed for either gold or silver at market rates.

Also, taking a cue from Belgium (and listing what systems I have), Korea is using a mixed economy, using both government-owned and free enterprise. Also, a nationalized healthcare system has been created, aided by private aid societies (mainly of American origin). We have low tariffs to promote investment, as well.

Now that I think of it, maybe I should do tax reform.....

Hey Galveston, (or anyone I guess for that matter) any idea what either Hungary's population is at in 1920 or when my economy should be back to roughly pre-war periods?

In a RL Census, taken in 1907, Austria-Hungary's population numbered around 48,200,000 citizens. With the loss of Austria, Dalmatia and other territories, along with the casualites sustianed throughout the Great War, I'd imagine that number would have dropped to somewhere around 15-25 million citizens.

As for the economy, since large Industrial centres (Zargreb, Wien, Sarejevo, Innsbruk ect.) were taken away from the KUK and the majority of Hungary is in ruins, I'd imagine, in a best-case scenario, that KUK's economy would be near post-war levels by the early 1920's (without the territories I have states above, it will be nearly impossible to restore the entire Industrial potential of the KUK). In a worst-case scenario, I'd imagine that industrial levels would return to normal in the late 20's, possibly early 30's.

Of course, this only applies if we don't experience a Great Depression (I doubt it's possible in our game), the KUK falls into complete civil unrest/rebellion, or the KUK is invaded by Yugoslavia, Germany and/or Russia.

some important facts in 1920
motor vehicle production (historical data) (in thousands of vehicles annually)
Year US Canada France UK Germany Italy Czechoslovakia Russia
1907 45 3 25 12 4 0 0 0
1913 485 15 45 34 14 2 0 0
1924 3504 135 145 133 18 35 2 0

Ok, so we have Korea, Italy, Australia, and China all trying to industrialize, and a Russia and Germany with some different issues than historical in 1910-20

So this is my take
1920 Motor Vehicle Production
US, Canada, France, UK unchanged, Germany is at 20, Italy unchanged, Czechs are unchanged, Russia is at 1, Korea, China, and Australia at 1, Colombia at 15. Japan is at 20. IF your country doesn't have a vehicle industry, it cannot have an aircraft industry. Only tech level 5 or better nations have automobile industries at all. Needless to say, no cars, no tanks.

Aircraft production is running around 300 units (aircraft) both civilian and military annually in the US, similar numbers out of Germany, Russia, UK, and France, about 200 annually from Italy and Japan, about 50 annually from Sweden, and no one else really has an aircraft industry. Germans build about 20 Zeppelins a year, US about 20 Blimps a year, and Italy, UK, France, and Japan half those numbers (of whichever type preferred, probably Blimps though).

Belgian Economic Highlights 1908-1920
Snip.
There is nothing in Belgium's RL history to indicate that Belgians would tolerate the kind of radical Objectivist economic policies you're proposing, and in fact Socialism was much more popular in Belgium at this time (it was anti-Bolshevik, but remember, Trotsky already suppressed the Bolsheviks).
What you're trying to do would result in a powerful economy in some ways, but it would also create a powerful corporate lobby much more skilled in eating government pork than delivering human services (which should sound familiar to the non-John Birchers out there . . .), and a flat income tax at that rate for the poor would be literally murderous.
Remember, Communism hasn't been discredited in this timeline (and might not be). It should be pretty obvious what will happen when a mass of poor people without adequate welfare or health-care, who pay a quarter of their income to a government more concerned with doling out lucrative contracts to rich fat guys, look East and see (at the very least) an awesome propaganda machine for "the proletariat armed and victorious."
Really, I think this is just ahistorical, and should be moderated.

Sharina, I think in general your programs look good (I don't know how much you'll be able to implement by 1920, but as the Fluffster pointed out I'm in the same boat there). One thing, though, is that I can't imagine Mongolia supporting the kind of population you're interested in sending there. I mean, it's a desert. With some sheep, and a few cantankerous nomads. Its population today is less than that of metropolitan Boston. Actually attempting to put ten times that number of people onto that land would be an unsustainable drain on China's resources.

some important facts in 1920
motor vehicle production (historical data) (in thousands of vehicles annually)
Year US Canada France UK Germany Italy Czechoslovakia Russia
1907 45 3 25 12 4 0 0 0
1913 485 15 45 34 14 2 0 0
1924 3504 135 145 133 18 35 2 0

Ok, so we have Korea, Italy, Australia, and China all trying to industrialize, and a Russia and Germany with some different issues than historical in 1910-20

So this is my take
1920 Motor Vehicle Production
US, Canada, France, UK unchanged, Germany is at 20, Italy unchanged, Czechs are unchanged, Russia is at 1, Korea, China, and Australia at 1, Colombia at 15. Japan is at 20. IF your country doesn't have a vehicle industry, it cannot have an aircraft industry. Only tech level 5 or better nations have automobile industries at all. Needless to say, no cars, no tanks.

Aircraft production is running around 300 units (aircraft) both civilian and military annually in the US, similar numbers out of Germany, Russia, UK, and France, about 200 annually from Italy and Japan, about 50 annually from Sweden, and no one else really has an aircraft industry. Germans build about 20 Zeppelins a year, US about 20 Blimps a year, and Italy, UK, France, and Japan half those numbers (of whichever type preferred, probably Blimps though).


Hey, Economod, you foget my friend Palestine. They's my little buddy.

Hey, Economod, you foget my friend Palestine. They's my little buddy.

a partial economic update provided, and Palestine is included. Zion, do you actually have a national territory?

I own 100KM^2 in Argentina just North of Rio Gallegos, it was given to me by Manarth in 1915.

There is nothing in Belgium's RL history to indicate that Belgians would tolerate the kind of radical Objectivist economic policies you're proposing, and in fact Socialism was much more popular in Belgium at this time (it was anti-Bolshevik, but remember, Trotsky already suppressed the Bolsheviks).
What you're trying to do would result in a powerful economy in some ways, but it would also create a powerful corporate lobby much more skilled in eating government pork than delivering human services (which should sound familiar to the non-John Birchers out there . . .), and a flat income tax at that rate for the poor would be literally murderous.
Remember, Communism hasn't been discredited in this timeline (and might not be). It should be pretty obvious what will happen when a mass of poor people without adequate welfare or health-care, who pay a quarter of their income to a government more concerned with doling out lucrative contracts to rich fat guys, look East and see (at the very least) an awesome propaganda machine for "the proletariat armed and victorious."
Really, I think this is just ahistorical, and should be moderated.

Sharina, I think in general your programs look good (I don't know how much you'll be able to implement by 1920, but as the Fluffster pointed out I'm in the same boat there). One thing, though, is that I can't imagine Mongolia supporting the kind of population you're interested in sending there. I mean, it's a desert. With some sheep, and a few cantankerous nomads. Its population today is less than that of metropolitan Boston. Actually attempting to put ten times that number of people onto that land would be an unsustainable drain on China's resources.


Actually, structured welfare systems are extremely rare prior to the Great Depression.. is was mostly just relief agencies and local governments prior to that in the Industralized World.

OOC:

I find it a little difficult to believe that China has remained at Tech Level 4 after 13 years of massive foreign investment, trade, and assistance. In addition, China should have built a sizable education system between 1908 - 1920 with German and British help. These should have gone a long way in increasing China from tech Level 4 to somewhere around Tech Level 5. After all, China advanced from tech Level 2 in 1900 to Tech Level 4 by 1908.

I just wanted to share my thoughts and questions regarding this. :)

OOC:

I find it a little difficult to believe that China has remained at Tech Level 4 after 13 years of massive foreign investment, trade, and assistance. In addition, China should have built a sizable education system between 1908 - 1920 with German and British help. These should have gone a long way in increasing China from tech Level 4 to somewhere around Tech Level 5. After all, China advanced from tech Level 2 in 1900 to Tech Level 4 by 1908.

I just wanted to share my thoughts and questions regarding this. :)

you are almost at tech level 5 (really more like 4.5). the problem you have is that vast areas of China consist of peasant farmers with limited infrastructure. The leading nations are still at tech level 5, and won't hit tech level 6 for a while yet either. Foreign investment would have fallen sharply in the immediate aftermath of the Great War, except for maybe the British, and you also have to pay off the loans you are accumalating. On the plus side, you have a political stability China never had in the 20th Century.

you are almost at tech level 5 (really more like 4.5). the problem you have is that vast areas of China consist of peasant farmers with limited infrastructure. The leading nations are still at tech level 5, and won't hit tech level 6 for a while yet either. Foreign investment would have fallen sharply in the immediate aftermath of the Great War, except for maybe the British, and you also have to pay off the loans you are accumalating. On the plus side, you have a political stability China never had in the 20th Century.

Thanks for clearing that up, GB.

I was wondering if I could pull China to Tech Level 5 by 1925, then maybe Tech Level 6 by 1935 - 1940?

I could invest in more tractors, automobiles and trucks, irrigation systems, etc. to increase crop yields and speed up delivery of foodstuffs to China's urban areas. Not only that, but I could expand telegraph lines, electricity lines, etc. to rural villages and maybe establish rudimentary "Commuter Rail" systems to aid mass transit. I could also build more roads and highways to help these peasants travel to the city for education, luxuries, etc.

Would that be sufficient to help me improve my economy?

I was also wondering about what other improvements I could try to undertake to help China grow even more between 1920 - 1930?

One other thing... my loans and debts are being paid in Chinese manufactured goods- Britain and Germany have agreed to accept Chinese goods instead of hard currency.

I am wondering how it would be best to improve my nations tech level and production values, i have already joined in economic treaties with the Eastern Coalition, but that seems to have done little.
Would producing more steel mills, factories, railroads, highways, and things of that nature help?

If any other nations could help my nation modernize it would be very much appreciated.

New Zealand is now a part of Australia, Britian gave it to us.

New Zealand is now a part of Australia, Britian gave it to us.

New Zealand has its own government at the same time you did.... I want other opinions, but my feeling is that the New Zealanders have very strong feelings about being seperate from Australia. However, for defensive purposes, the New Zealanders work hand in hand with Australia.

IN rl NZ was granted Dominion status in 1907. Here Britian gave me NZ at the beggining of 1907 and with the time jump its been 13 years. It was in Britians thread. BUt anyway back in 1900 before Australia became a dominion in rl each individual colony on Australia had closer relations to Britian than each other but still came together, i'd imagine itd be much the same with NZ especially with the common history and begginings.

how is it that sweden has better tech and edonomy than spain when i havent seen sweden rp worth a flip and all ive done is enact reforms?!

I don't think GB has finished. If he has, I feel that there are some issues. But I'll give GB the benefit of the doubt and wait to complain later.

sorry im a bit mad because people advertised in my other rp and people left...sorry GB

how is it that sweden has better tech and edonomy than spain when i havent seen sweden rp worth a flip and all ive done is enact reforms?!

history happens if the nation isn't being Roleplayed.. Historically Sweden has a very advanced industrial economy. For example, they built their own aircraft, artillery, warships, tanks, and small arms all during the 20th Century. They also didn't fight the Great War and spend vast amounts of treasure.

Spain was a basket case historically, and you have brought it to decent shape, but started worse off by far economically and technologically.

The Big Powers 1920

Population in millions/percentage urban
Russia 195.1 / 12
USA 105 / 50
Germany 76 / 45
China 500 / 10
Japan 55 / 22
France 42 / 25
Britain 50 / 60
Italy 40 / 25
Burgundy 6 /34
Colombia 6 / 12

Industrial powers / Industrial potential and GNP in 1920 Dollars
Britain 150
USA 325
Germany 180
France 72
Russia 105
Czechslovakia 12
Italy 20
Japan 30
Belgium 45
Burgundy 25
Colombia 12
China 12

For everyone else, for ease, use $1 Billion for every million people if tech level 5, $500 million for every million if tech level 4
$100 Million for every million people if Tech Level 3 or 3.5, and $10 Millio for every million if Tech Level 2... below that you don't have a GNP

what do i come under? should i just use Argentina's or should i use another due to the Zion Colonial Trust and the fact that my people are great at business, i hope that didn't come out as racist.

history happens if the nation isn't being Roleplayed.. Historically Sweden has a very advanced industrial economy. For example, they built their own aircraft, artillery, warships, tanks, and small arms all during the 20th Century. They also didn't fight the Great War and spend vast amounts of treasure.

Spain was a basket case historically, and you have brought it to decent shape, but started worse off by far economically and technologically.
thanks for explaining and sorry if i seemed a little harsh

What you're trying to do would result in a powerful economy in some ways, but it would also create a powerful corporate lobby much more skilled in eating government pork than delivering human services (which should sound familiar to the non-John Birchers out there . . .)

If you mean "pork" as in "money", I do believe that I have abandoned all currently held subsides, and I do plan to ban Corporate Welfare (it's possible).

and a flat income tax at that rate for the poor would be literally murderous.

I concur, and I will promptly edit that to a smaller number (10% possibly 15%). I just threw 25% down because that's the first number that came to mind.

without adequate welfare or health-care

I fail to see where this comment came from. As a matter of fact, Private-Public Partnerships (P3's) are perhaps some of the most effective means for handling the healthcare issue. In RL, the United Kingdom has began to implement similar programs within it's NHS with success and being that most nations (including just about every other Major Power) don't even have a structured healthcare system (Alternate History not RL), I'd imagine Belgians would be quite happy.

As for welfare, Privatization allows citizens to invest there savings in a wide variety of options for varying fees (for lower-income workers, most banks offer cheaper plans that have the potential to make just as much money as any higher priced plan). Yes, the risk is greater, but if the investor is worried about risk, he can simply invest his savings into Government bonds (similar to US Social Security) or Foriegn Treasuries.

The Big Powers 1920

<snip>

I've invested heavily in education, pushed through reforms and industrialization, and brought in foreign investment (British arms manufacturers and French industrialists). Is there anything else South Africa can do to strengthen the economy and possibly advance to tech level 5? I mean, short of full integration of blacks (something I intend to do, but can't yet RP realistically)?

Maybe I've just got an inferiority complex, being the most advanced African nation, and only having a 'Good' economy.

The Year 1920

Europe
Albania
Population ?
Economic Rating Struggling (extractive)
Tech level 3

.

Albania has a population of about 900,000 and it's tech level is 2 (no industrial econemy whatsoever)...

Over the past 3 years, Germany has begun rapid reconstruction of Railroads and roads, as well as industrial increases. Huge leaps in land reform have taken, and Factories are now run by common vote. Elections are being held for representatives to create a new constitution to help all of the workers strive for equality. A new foreign policy has been created: the Two Hands Policy. The Right hand is the hand of Collaberation. It's duty is to work with other nations to help create the Worker's Paradise outside of Germany. Economic and diplomatic aid work in this department. The Left Hand of Revolution is the more violent side of the Hands. It is the Left Hand of Revolution. Under it, is the Army, which will be used to protect workers all around the world from any oppressor.

However, the greatest change has been in education. All private schools have been abolished and replaced with free and well cared for public schools. Education has become the top priority in the Republic. Colleges have also been made totally free, and those who have the mental capacity and proper discipline are allowed. For a small fee, foreigners with the proper capacities are also allowed. Teachers and Professors have been given more material possesions for their great contributions to the People. War colleges have been set up to provide Germany with a new generation of officers to train the Left Hand. Lastly, many more colleges will be created in the lands of our Friends including Russia, China, the Ottoman Empire, Venezuela, the Balkans, and Brazil. Should other nations wish that the ways of the German Workers be taught, they should only need request it.

can someone find for me the Yugoslavian population at this time, it is extremely hard to find things like that when you don't know where to look :(

can someone find for me the Yugoslavian population at this time, it is extremely hard to find things like that when you don't know where to look :(

A RL census taken in 1918 of Yugoslavia projected a total population of around 11,984,911 citizens.

okay thanks! help alot in projecting my GNP.

Galveston, I have a few important questions to ask.

First, I noticed that my Economy slipped from "Good" in 1920 to "Fair". How come? I've undertaken multiple massive projects in China, like dams, electricity, railroad building, road / highway building, factory construction, increased trade with Europe and the USA, being involved with the Eastern Coalition (trade alliance), improving education systems, and so forth.

Also, those projects are creating millions of new jobs, which means lower unemployment, more tax money, and more Chinese people will be able to buy luxuries and commodities than in RL 1910 - 1920. Not only that, but China has an enormous demand for Westerner goods, and IIRC, you or VP said that Europe is suffering from "High Supply" and "Low Demand".



That aside, I need to know where China stands with its current state of industrialization, and how much more progress I will have to go before China can be at Westerner standards (electricity in all homes, good road networks, millions of automobiles, excellent hospitals, good sewage systems, and so forth).

I believe you or VP also said (when we were still in 1901 - 1903, before Great War) that China would be able to catch up with the USA by maybe 1930 - 1940, and Europe by 1925 - 1930. Now that the Great War happened and hit Europe with recession, and China suffered little to no recession, it should stand to reason that the timetable should still stand- China = Europe by 1925 or so, and China = USA by 1930 - 1940.

I really need discussion and feedback on those questions and such, so I'll have a much better idea what or how to RP out 1920 until the next Time Warp. I do not want to end up god-modding, or making outrageous claims. I have a few other questions relating to characters and such, but I will wait until I get answers to my first "batch" of questions, though. :)

You slipped from Good to Fair because of temporary situation. Basically, after the initial surge of investment, there was a shortage of capital in general world wide because so much of it was tied into debts from the Great War. This slowed down the investment in your country. Plus, after heavy borrowing, you are servicing debt now as well. But this is temporary and reflects the fact that nations that grow quickly tend to have a recession or slow down from time to time. Your balance of payments is almost certainly unfavorable at the moment as well, as you are buying more valuable goods than you can sell. For now. That will change eventually too. Too fast a growth of China, especially if China starts flooding the markets in Europe and North America with goods (as it has in our real life current situation) would trigger substantial tariffs and other barriers (governments believed in those back then until the Great Depression proved that to be a huge error).

Your economy will return to Good quickly and move to Strong after that. As far as being tech level 4 goes, considering that you were tech level 2 at the start of the century and its only been 20 years and you have caught up and passed parts of Europe, you are doing pretty well. The US and leading European nations will still be only tech level 5 or 5.5 by the 1930s, and the US, Germany and Britian won't reach tech level 6 until the 1940s, and you will be right behind them.

I am using historic Japan and historical growth in China as my model for you, adjusted for your actions. Your historical rail mileage by 1920 was nearly 5,000 miles, which is a huge jump from the 20 miles you had historically in 1920. So I am figuring nearly 25,000 miles, perhaps more, which is still well behind the nearly 200,000 miles in the US for example but ahead of the entire Balkans. Incidently, you have already caught up with all of the smaller European nations, and are catching up with some of the bigger powers. At this point, I figure you and the Russians are growing at about the same rate, with them having a head start.

As far as electrification goes.. the US didn't even get Rural Electification for most of the South, Central Plains and Old South until the late 1930s... so you aren't going to be ahead of the US there, the US has a smaller area to do that for. China to this day does not have complete electrification (although its close).

OOC: Argentina should have a slightly higher population:

http://www.gobiernoelectronico.ar/sitio_ingles/our_country/inmigracion.htm

According to the chart on the middle right, Argentina's population is about 8M in 1914. Considering the early war, Jewish settlers with dual citizenship, and ordinary increases in population, I'd expect about 9-10M (8.5-9M without the Jewish/Dual Citizen Settlers counting)

http://www.indec.mecon.ar/indec/ingles/i_preguntas.asp

Another copy of the same chart, this one from the Argentine Government's census website.

Thanks for being patient and explaining stuff more, GB. I really appreciate your efforts in this game, not only researching the economy, but the military as well.

Will these goals work well?

1. Continue to build more railroads. Aim for maybe 100,000 total miles of railroad by 1930, connect all major cities, mining complexes, factories, and such.

2. Build highways and roads to connect all the suburbs and rural villages to the major cities such as Peking, Shanghai, Canton, Tienstin, Luo Yang, etc. What would be a good number by 1930? 300,000 to 400,000 miles of roads and highways?

3. Begin electrification process by harnessing hydro power with the dams being built. According to the CIA factbook, China has the world's largest hydro-power potential. This should help offset the power demands, reduce the numbers of coal power plants, and allow China to have a good source of renewable energy sources early. Would you figure electrification of all Chinese major cities by 1930? Then small cities or large towns by 1935 - 1940, then rural farms and such by 1950's? Is that a workable time-frame?

4. China will try to imitate the Europeans and the USA by trying to develop a Mercantile Economy. Would this be possible with the newly built universities and education centers, as China will finally have its own economists and intellectual elites? Would you figure success by 1930?

5. What is China's standing regarding factory building, automobile industry, plane industry, commodity stores (like Sears, Walmart, etc.) and so forth?

6. Is there anything else that is reasonable (not god-moddish or such) that I should try to pursure with China? What I'm going to try to do between 1920 - 1930 would be similiar to what Franklin Roosevelt did for the USA between 1935 - 1945 with the dozens of huge public works projects (Hoover Dam, new interstate highways, etc.). Is this reasonable, or is it godmoddish?



I apologize for the new barrage of questions, but I'm really eager to try to play around with China and see what I can do with it, now that it's well under development and improvements. Once again, I truly appreciate your efforts with E20 and I'm also grateful that you're taking time to try to help me understand and learn more about economics. :)

Hi, Brazil here, I'd just like to point out that I have had aid from Russia before the time warp to create a fully modern rail network and also to fully modernise agricultural practices and equipment. The increased revenue from agriculture has been used to create local industry and an industrial region in Matto Grosso mainly concerned with coal, iron and steelworks. Maybe the tech level is four after this? I'm no great authority on the matter I just thought I'd point it out that I gained this aid from before the time warp so my country has had a good while to create a functioning rail network, modern agriculture on a large scale, local industry and the beginnings of an industrial district for the above resources. Thanks.

Germany is providing modern farm equipment for Albania's agricultural sector (metal tools/plows est.) This does not however include tractors. I will be able to accire fuel for tractors when either the Trans-Eurasian link to Albania is established or there is an oil sector up and running.

What I would like to know is how great an effect would metal tools/plows and other modern farm tech (excluding those which require fuel) have on Albania's agricultural sector.

I guessing that over two years production of cerial and cash crops will rise between 25% to 50%. Does that sound right?

I would like to point out that Germany has begun to restart the Trans-Eurasian Railroad. It got to Tehran when the Unrest started and has now begun to restart it with permission of the Chinese, Russian and Turkish Governments. Also, more extensive railroad projects are expected for movement between Germany and Russia.

The Kingdom at this point is out of its recession and stablizing its economy at this point in the early 1920s.

Population is now around 4.825 Million
Still at Technological Level 4 with a fair economic rating

Modernization is continuing at this time with social reforms...while hoping to make a few deals to export needed equipment to other nations.

Thanks for being patient and explaining stuff more, GB. I really appreciate your efforts in this game, not only researching the economy, but the military as well.

Will these goals work well?

1. Continue to build more railroads. Aim for maybe 100,000 total miles of railroad by 1930, connect all major cities, mining complexes, factories, and such.

2. Build highways and roads to connect all the suburbs and rural villages to the major cities such as Peking, Shanghai, Canton, Tienstin, Luo Yang, etc. What would be a good number by 1930? 300,000 to 400,000 miles of roads and highways?

3. Begin electrification process by harnessing hydro power with the dams being built. According to the CIA factbook, China has the world's largest hydro-power potential. This should help offset the power demands, reduce the numbers of coal power plants, and allow China to have a good source of renewable energy sources early. Would you figure electrification of all Chinese major cities by 1930? Then small cities or large towns by 1935 - 1940, then rural farms and such by 1950's? Is that a workable time-frame?

4. China will try to imitate the Europeans and the USA by trying to develop a Mercantile Economy. Would this be possible with the newly built universities and education centers, as China will finally have its own economists and intellectual elites? Would you figure success by 1930?

5. What is China's standing regarding factory building, automobile industry, plane industry, commodity stores (like Sears, Walmart, etc.) and so forth?

6. Is there anything else that is reasonable (not god-moddish or such) that I should try to pursure with China? What I'm going to try to do between 1920 - 1930 would be similiar to what Franklin Roosevelt did for the USA between 1935 - 1945 with the dozens of huge public works projects (Hoover Dam, new interstate highways, etc.). Is this reasonable, or is it godmoddish?



I apologize for the new barrage of questions, but I'm really eager to try to play around with China and see what I can do with it, now that it's well under development and improvements. Once again, I truly appreciate your efforts with E20 and I'm also grateful that you're taking time to try to help me understand and learn more about economics. :)

Bump for response to my questions.

I have no idea what's the state of the Economy for the Ottoman Empire, GB could you help on this or try to enlighten me, please.

I have no idea what's the state of the Economy for the Ottoman Empire, GB could you help on this or try to enlighten me, please.

see beginning posts for updates, but right now as of 1920, Turkey has a Reasonable Economy which means it is recovering finally from the Great War, crushing debt load, and antiquated structure that it has had since the Seljuk Turks conquered the place in the 1200s. All of that was holding you back severally. With a population of 28 million (including the Persians and Arabs you conquered), and an overall tech level of 4 (parts of conquered territories are a 1, which is one reason your overall rating is only Reasonable), you have a GNP of 14 Billion 1920 Dollars, which is fairly reasonable actually for a nation that a century ago was still in the Middle Ages. You are also getting decent foreign currency reserves from sale of oil from Persia.

While Italy just sold a boatload (hehe) of ships to America for use as targets, Italy's offer to the world (minus communists) still stands: we will sell battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and subs to the world. Particulularly sought after are a Chinese or Japanese purchase. Italy did (in this timeline, at least) sell China three Savoy classes (IIRC), and Caio Duilio (sp?) battleships are being offered to these two nations.

Italy has begun to view China with much more respect, and some Italian businessmen have offered to help China build roads and such. While they wish to work for a profit (of course), the offer still stands for China to consider.

Other developing nations are being given similar offers: get loans from us, use those loans to hire Italian to spruce your nation up, and then buy our ships.

At home, automobiles and the Joseon (Wankel) engine are still being invested in. Italy wishes to export these to other nations, and has requested foriegn investment in the Italian automobile industry. The ultimate goal is to have Italian cars multiply as flies, expensive flies that the world buys up.

Argentinian businessmen (specifically children of Italian immigrants) have expressed interest in the automotive industry in Italy, offering to import them to the weathier of Argentinian population, and work with the government to lower the tarrifs on such cars to practically nothing. Also, the thought of such automobiles suplimenting horses has created interest in automated farming impliments as well, although this is not worth as much money, and thus is a lower priority for the businessmen.

While Italy just sold a boatload (hehe) of ships to America for use as targets, Italy's offer to the world (minus communists) still stands: we will sell battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and subs to the world. Particulularly sought after are a Chinese or Japanese purchase. Italy did (in this timeline, at least) sell China three Savoy classes (IIRC), and Caio Duilio (sp?) battleships are being offered to these two nations.

Italy has begun to view China with much more respect, and some Italian businessmen have offered to help China build roads and such. While they wish to work for a profit (of course), the offer still stands for China to consider.

Other developing nations are being given similar offers: get loans from us, use those loans to hire Italian to spruce your nation up, and then buy our ships.

At home, automobiles and the Joseon (Wankel) engine are still being invested in. Italy wishes to export these to other nations, and has requested foriegn investment in the Italian automobile industry. The ultimate goal is to have Italian cars multiply as flies, expensive flies that the world buys up.

OOC:

China would still be interested in Italian assistance in road and highway construction. In exchange, China would be more than happy to help invest in Italian automobile industry and the Wankel Engine.

You could post a deal going down in my Chinese thread if you'd like.

OOC: Albania's request for the discarded ships heavy guns to be used in fortifications still stands.

well, some economies are going to improve if the nations involved honor the Washington Treaty... specifically Japan and France, and to a lesser extent, Great Britain (which really can't get much richer, but the taxes go down a bit I suspect).

Unless of course you spend all the money you are saving to enlarge your army

Italian companies convince the government to lower tarrifs on Argentine goods to 3%, and some companies will try to export their cars to wealthy Argentine businessmen. Wankel-powered tractors have also been put onto the market, and are also for export.

Also, China, I will contact you in your thread and present you an offer.

President Ramon Sanfuentes, having been informed of developments in Italy, convinces the parliament to lower tarrifs on Italian merchandice to 3% as well, with a rider pledging parity in tarrifs should future changes need to be made.

well, some economies are going to improve if the nations involved honor the Washington Treaty... specifically Japan and France, and to a lesser extent, Great Britain (which really can't get much richer, but the taxes go down a bit I suspect).

Unless of course you spend all the money you are saving to enlarge your army

We're not enlarging it...we're improving it.

ooc
A few points...

Some of the smaller nations are taking out huge loans in proportion to the size of their economies. This is going to bite them in the ass very soon.

A look a the debt problem the Third World as had in the last 50 years will show you why. Small economies generally depend on a principal export (be it bananas, oil, coffee or crafts), and the world market is a nasty and unpredictable place, with change as a normal event. Inevitably, the price of an export plummets from time to time, do to the normal operation the market. For example, British Nigeria might have a bumper crop of coffee that year, and the price of Colombian and Brazilian coffee might go down as the market is flooded. Now all of a sudden, Brazil gets far less than it used to for its coffee, and reduces its foreign currency reserves which reduces the amount of money it has to pay off its foreign debt and buy needed items from foreign nations. Any prolonged period of this, say a 3-5 year period, and suddenly Brazil (for example) is in deep trouble.

This is getting ready to happen. Brazil was the worlds principal supplier of rubber until planters in British Malaya and French Indochina started plantations, and they quickly took off, as it is far easier to export from there. The caused historically a collapse in the Brazilian economy for a time.

In this time line there is even more incentive for alternatives to Brazilian rubber to occur.

So those big loans may very well have been a bad mistake for some of you.

I posted something related to this in the military thread (about shipyards instead of cars):

When can South Africa start producing automobiles commercially? Right now, only those wealthy enough to import them have cars, and the military has a few trucks, but I'd like to start producing them locally, even if they're only good enough to sell in southern Africa.

I posted something related to this in the military thread (about shipyards instead of cars):

When can South Africa start producing automobiles commercially? Right now, only those wealthy enough to import them have cars, and the military has a few trucks, but I'd like to start producing them locally, even if they're only good enough to sell in southern Africa.

at tech level 5 you can produce automobiles, however, economies of scale are working against seriously.... the big car producing nations can produce them very, very cheaply for their own internal market and can simply undersell you, even with transportation expenses. That said, if heavily subsidized, you can produce a car industry, but historically South Africa got one when the big producers set up plants there in the 1950s.

ooc
A few points...

Some of the smaller nations are taking out huge loans in proportion to the size of their economies. This is going to bite them in the ass very soon.

A look a the debt problem the Third World as had in the last 50 years will show you why. Small economies generally depend on a principal export (be it bananas, oil, coffee or crafts), and the world market is a nasty and unpredictable place, with change as a normal event. Inevitably, the price of an export plummets from time to time, do to the normal operation the market. For example, British Nigeria might have a bumper crop of coffee that year, and the price of Colombian and Brazilian coffee might go down as the market is flooded. Now all of a sudden, Brazil gets far less than it used to for its coffee, and reduces its foreign currency reserves which reduces the amount of money it has to pay off its foreign debt and buy needed items from foreign nations. Any prolonged period of this, say a 3-5 year period, and suddenly Brazil (for example) is in deep trouble.

This is getting ready to happen. Brazil was the worlds principal supplier of rubber until planters in British Malaya and French Indochina started plantations, and they quickly took off, as it is far easier to export from there. The caused historically a collapse in the Brazilian economy for a time.

In this time line there is even more incentive for alternatives to Brazilian rubber to occur.

So those big loans may very well have been a bad mistake for some of you.

OOC:
Albania is useing the money it was loaned to modernize the country, launch land reform and establish a market economy (that is, grow wealth at home instead of exporting it). Our natural resources, historicaly untapped, are being developed by foreign companies with very good terms for Albania. No matter what the exact market price we are sure to make a profit (we are very close to the importing nations). In other words Albania's economy has no where to go but up.... I will post details on Albania's recent economic growth later.