NationStates Jolt Archive

This is my first design ever and i really tried hard so dont flame me that bad. I also am not sure how to do displacement so if anyone can tell me that would be helpful. Any constructive critisiscm or help is gladly welcomed.

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Maiden Class Submarine
Length: 420 ft. (120m)
Length from beam to beam: 100ft. (32m)
Height: 90ft. (30m)
Crew: 320 people, including airmen.

Introduction
The Maiden class submarine was influenced by the idea that having a mobile air wing that could strike from no known position could give a big advantage in war. The HailandKill navy had began to research ideas and along with the war department of IronMaidia to come to this design. This submarine was also designed to launch aircraft for surprise attacks and it also designed to fight in submarine to submarine warfare if it is necessary.

Hull
The Maiden class submarine is ninety feet in height containing five main decks . Decks four and five are combined to make the main airstrip that planes take off from, together these decks are thirty-two feet in height. Deck three is the main aircraft hangar and is twenty-two feet high; deck three has four main elevators that are connected to the top of deck four and five to bring aircraft to the main flight deck. Deck three can hold twenty four F-35 B/C aircraft, or twenty four planes of similar dimensions. Decks two and one are each split up into two major compartments. The front most part of deck two is the command room and the operating aircraft control room. The rear part of deck two is the crew bunkrooms. The lowest deck, deck one has a torpedo room in the front most part of the ship. The two pebble nuclear reactors are located in the rearmost part of the ship. This reactor room is sealed from the rest of the ship with one inch thick lead coating and a single access door.

A major component and innovation of the hull for the Maiden class is that the top part of the hull is retractable to allow aircraft takeoff from the main flight deck. The flight deck itself is three hundred and eighty feet long by sixty feet in width. The retractable roof is operated by two pneumatic arms to slide the panel underneath the stationary part of the top of the hull. Each panel is forty five feet (curved) by three hundred and eighty feet. The panels meet in the center of the ship and are tipped with rubber to minimize water leakage. The two panels are coated with thin rubber liners underneath them. Compression and expansion joints are placed by the stationary piece where the panels are when they are closed to minimize any water leakage. The panels in the ship are made watertight along with the flight deck but the expansion and compression joints along with the rubber coating help insure safety.

The actual hull is comprised of four layers. The first layer is one inch thick titanium followed by the second layer of one and a half inch thick iron. The third layer is a two and a half inch thick layer of an aluminum and copper alloy. The fourth and final layer is a single inch of hardened steel.

Six torpedo mounts are built into the hull. The torpedo room can fire MK-48 torpedoes or harpoon SSM missiles.

Aircraft Launch
The flight deck on the Maiden class submarine can launch up to ten SVTOL aircraft. HailandKill and IronMaidia navies will use F-35 navy modified planes. Ten SVTOL aircraft can be tied down on the aircraft deck while the submarine is submerged to make takeoff quicker. The SVTOL systems on the planes will make takeoff and landing vertical and when planes are landing a wire will catch the plane to minimize slipping and crashing during landing.

Targeting/Radar/Sonar Systems
The AN/BSY-2 Submarine Combat System is designed to support Maiden class submarines in all mission areas. It is required to detect, classify, localize and track targets, platforms, and weapons by means of onboard active and passive sensors and with target information from other platforms and external detection systems. The combat control subsystem provides setting and control of weapons, over-the-horizon targeting, combat systems management, improved target motion analysis, piloting and navigation functions, and automatic contact correlation. It includes the weapon launch equipment for the MK 48 Advanced Capability torpedo and the Tomahawk Missile. Acoustic hardware includes a truncated 24 ft diameter spherical receive array, a 15 ft diameter hemisphere active transmit array, the Wide Aperture Array (WAA), a low frequency bow array, two towed arrays, and a mine detection and avoidance high frequency array. The submarine's control suite is equipped with computer touch screens. The submarine's steering and diving control is via a four-button, two-axis joystick.

Radar used on Maiden class submarines is the advanced electronically scanned array (AESA) AN/APG-81 multi-function radar. The AN/APG-81AESA will combine an integrated radio frequency subsystem with a multifunction array to track all targets.

Countermeasures
Maiden class submarines will be fitted with the AN/WLY-1 acoustic countermeasures system which provides range and bearing data, and the mast-mounted AN/BLQ-10 Electronic Support Measures (ESM) system. AN/BLQ-10 provides full spectrum radar processing, automatic threat warning and situation assessment

Propulsion
The Pebble Bed Modular Reactor (PBMR) is a new type of high temperature helium gas-cooled nuclear reactor, which builds and advances on world-wide nuclear operators' experience of older reactor designs. The most remarkable feature of these reactors is that they use attributes inherent in and natural to the processes of nuclear energy generation to enhance safety features. It is also a practical and cost-effective solution to most of the logistics of generating electricity. These reactors power two main fans that propel the ship.

Cost: Unknown
Running cost: Unknown

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[OOC:

Well, the only problems that I see are main problems are the following (and I might be wrong on this call):

Crew: I think that the crew should be a bit larger. The Nimitz class AC has a crew compliment of 3,200 for the ship, and 2,480 for the aircraft. Now, while yours carries twenty-four aircraft and the Nimitz carries 85, your aircraft crew should be larger regardless. It implies that there is a bit more than twenty-nine (29.17) personnel per aircraft, which is to say that your crew personnel for your airwing alone should be six hundred and ninety-six.

For your ship crew you would have the crew for the submarine, then the crew for take off and landing procedures, plus all the maintenance crews for the decks and all the other specialists you need...

So in the end I would give your submarine a total personnel number of around three hundred for the ship crew and then the six hundred and ninety-six for the aircrew.

Propulsion: I would make it MHD. For this submarine, the quieter the better..and velocity and acceleration capabilities aren't going to make a difference considering the size of this thing.

---

But, it's an all around awsome design.]

OOC: I just skimmed the write-up for the Maiden, but my impressions are that it's an excellent job of detailing the thoughts behind the ship.

My major problem though is the fact that I think a submersible carrier that has more than about 10-12 aircraft is very much infeasible. I'd write all my reasons for that, but Praetonia already covered them in his diatribe when you had an earlier thread devoted to it. In short, submarines are at their most vulnerable when they're surfaced, one that launches aircraft is going to be practically waving a red flag in front of the bull that's known as your enemies, and before you know it, there goes your submersible carrier.

I can see the attraction of having a submersible carrier, but when you have more than 10-12 aircraft launching from one of those, it takes HOURS before you're able to launch aircraft. Once you do that, you have to send signals to your fighters and they have to send them back to your sub. That's what draws an enemy looking to make a quick and costly kill.

OOC: It would have to be much larger to hangar all twenty-four aircraft, and would have to be larger to house ten to twelve aircraft.

For most submersible carriers feasible with today's technology, expect something that could hangar about four F-35 VTOL variant-sized aircraft, even with folding wingtips and radar assembly, and would probably only be able to provide them with enough supplies for two to three sorties. It would only be able to launch two at a time and flight operations would only be possible in calm seas. Surfacing in calm seas means your ship will be very visible to the enemy, and a surfaced submarine is a very easy target to kill. Such a submarine would also likely be as large or larger than the Russian Typhoon-class (Type 945? class) ballistic missile submarine (about 48 000 tons submerged displacement with combat load).

My apologies if this reads as being mean-spirited.

THis is quite a nice ship overall. I wont repeat Isselmere, but raise my own two concerns:

1) No you cant lash aircraft to the deck while submerged. Why? Because salt-water will get into the engines. Not nice.

2) Why is there a layer of iron? Not only is iron relatively soft and brittle compared to most modern naval building materials, it's also very heavy and has a massive magnetic signature.

OOC: Oh yeah, for submerged displacement, try this:

volume = pi x (average between beam and 'height' of hull)^2 x (length) x (variable factor)

since 1 tonne of water = 1 cubic metre (m^3)

thus,

volume = 3.1416 x (15.5)^2 x 120 [ignoring the variable]
volume = 90,572.12 m^3
displacement = 90,572.12 metric tonnes

[the variable factor is for such things as the sail and other protuberances, as well as other factors.]

[OOC:

Well, the only problems that I see are main problems are the following (and I might be wrong on this call):

Crew: I think that the crew should be a bit larger. The Nimitz class AC has a crew compliment of 3,200 for the ship, and 2,480 for the aircraft. Now, while yours carries twenty-four aircraft and the Nimitz carries 85, your aircraft crew should be larger regardless. It implies that there is a bit more than twenty-nine (29.17) personnel per aircraft, which is to say that your crew personnel for your airwing alone should be six hundred and ninety-six.

For your ship crew you would have the crew for the submarine, then the crew for take off and landing procedures, plus all the maintenance crews for the decks and all the other specialists you need...

So in the end I would give your submarine a total personnel number of around three hundred for the ship crew and then the six hundred and ninety-six for the aircrew.

Propulsion: I would make it MHD. For this submarine, the quieter the better..and velocity and acceleration capabilities aren't going to make a difference considering the size of this thing.

---

But, it's an all around awsome design.]
I will re-work the crew ideas and such to keep it to a bare minimum but i forgot about a few of those needed crewmen.


OOC: I just skimmed the write-up for the Maiden, but my impressions are that it's an excellent job of detailing the thoughts behind the ship.

My major problem though is the fact that I think a submersible carrier that has more than about 10-12 aircraft is very much infeasible. I'd write all my reasons for that, but Praetonia already covered them in his diatribe when you had an earlier thread devoted to it. In short, submarines are at their most vulnerable when they're surfaced, one that launches aircraft is going to be practically waving a red flag in front of the bull that's known as your enemies, and before you know it, there goes your submersible carrier.

I can see the attraction of having a submersible carrier, but when you have more than 10-12 aircraft launching from one of those, it takes HOURS before you're able to launch aircraft. Once you do that, you have to send signals to your fighters and they have to send them back to your sub. That's what draws an enemy looking to make a quick and costly kill.
I had thought of that to but me and my friend came up with the idea of converting the comms to low frequency MHZ (megahertz) like AM waves. This way its harder to detect and also can be mistaken for a radio.

OOC: It would have to be much larger to hangar all twenty-four aircraft, and would have to be larger to house ten to twelve aircraft.

For most submersible carriers feasible with today's technology, expect something that could hangar about four F-35 VTOL variant-sized aircraft, even with folding wingtips and radar assembly, and would probably only be able to provide them with enough supplies for two to three sorties. It would only be able to launch two at a time and flight operations would only be possible in calm seas. Surfacing in calm seas means your ship will be very visible to the enemy, and a surfaced submarine is a very easy target to kill. Such a submarine would also likely be as large or larger than the Russian Typhoon-class (Type 945? class) ballistic missile submarine (about 48 000 tons submerged displacement with combat load).

My apologies if this reads as being mean-spirited.
I didnt figure i needed more than 2-3 sorties anyway. I am going to tweak length and width a wee bit to voice the concerns of the holding. I also kinda figured we could keep 7-10 on the deck but tied down. Ill adress that in a second.

THis is quite a nice ship overall. I wont repeat Isselmere, but raise my own two concerns:

1) No you cant lash aircraft to the deck while submerged. Why? Because salt-water will get into the engines. Not nice.

2) Why is there a layer of iron? Not only is iron relatively soft and brittle compared to most modern naval building materials, it's also very heavy and has a massive magnetic signature.
Hmmm the salt water problem is very apparent but i looked at the hull to be watertight. There always will be the small dripping leaks but say if the planes were covered with tarpaulin it would protect it and keep it dry?

To everyone who commented thanks and i will be tweaking little things and i figure it will be finished in a day. I adressed everyones adressing so if you look and see my solution still doesnt solve it comment again. Thanks
PS Isselmere the comments werent mean spirited but helpful.

I doubt tarpaulin would be able to keep out water, especially if the craft was completely submerged. In addition, it woudl limit how low the sub could dive, because the planes would invariably be crushed first.

I doubt tarpaulin would be able to keep out water, especially if the craft was completely submerged. In addition, it woudl limit how low the sub could dive, because the planes would invariably be crushed first.


[OOC: Wait, if that's true, then wouldn't a submarine be restricted in diving depth, because according to that theory, invariably the human crew member would be crushed first?]

Well a sub is pressurized anyway but if i added a pressurizer to keep the planes safe do you think that might work? Or a mainly pressurized flight deck while its underwater?

[OOC: Wait, if that's true, then wouldn't a submarine be restricted in diving depth, because according to that theory, invariably the human crew member would be crushed first?]
[OOC: I think Praetonia was voicing concerns about those aircraft that would on deck.

A deck park would be completely implausible for the design, however, as all aircraft would have to be arranged along the centreline and you would have to consider the space and surface area taken up by the aircraft lifts (at least 1.25 the area of (folded wingspan) x (length)). One would also have to consider the safety of the submarine. Any aircraft on deck when the ship performed an emergency dive (which it would likely have to) would, for all intents and purposes, be lost both because of sea water damage as well as pressure. Those within the hull would be safe as the hangar would have to be within the pressure hull.

Regarding the overall size of a submersible carrier, there are several space issues: the space each aircraft takes in the hangar as well as of the lifts themselves; the space required for their weapons and fuel; for the ship's company and flight crews; for the nuclear reactors; etc. One will also have to consider a new weak spot: the holes for the lift(s).]

[OOC: Wait, if that's true, then wouldn't a submarine be restricted in diving depth, because according to that theory, invariably the human crew member would be crushed first?]
What? Crewmen aren't lashed to the deck of submarines generally, are they? Maybe they are in your navy, but not mine. THey might find it somewhat hard to breath, and also hard to operate the submarine.

Sir! I am offended! My navy happens to have a long tradition of using crewmen lashed to the decks of submarines. They operate them using fibre-optic Nintendo controllers. Of course, the salt in the water is a bit of a problem. And the temperature tends to cause shrinkage.

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I had thought of that to but me and my friend came up with the idea of converting the comms to low frequency MHZ (megahertz) like AM waves. This way its harder to detect and also can be mistaken for a radio.

In water, low frequency noises are far easier to detect. In fact, many submarine noisemaker decoys use low frequency noises to distract incoming torpeoes, for the reason that they "cover up" (for lack of a better term) the higher frequency noises.

Sir! I am offended! My navy happens to have a long tradition of using crewmen lashed to the decks of submarines. They operate them using fibre-optic Nintendo controllers. Of course, the salt in the water is a bit of a problem. And the temperature tends to cause shrinkage.
That has to be the funniest thing I've read in quite a while. :D

What? Crewmen aren't lashed to the deck of submarines generally, are they? Maybe they are in your navy, but not mine. THey might find it somewhat hard to breath, and also hard to operate the submarine.


[OOC: But his decks are retractable, implying that the decks are going to be retracted into the submarines before it dives, consequently, the aircraft tied to the deck would be inside of the submarine. Unless...perhaps...he's contradicting his own design.]

Retracting/lowering the flightdeck into the submarine poses its own problems that I had partially addressed in an earlier post. Lifts would be a more plausible and possible means of operating aircraft, but then there's the problem of where does the lift end when not in use: does it become part of the hangar deck (thus requiring doors on the pressure hull and outer hull), rest atop of the pressure deck (probably the better solution as it would require only one set of doors, although flattened pressure hulls are uncommon with good reason), or does it form part of the outer hull, which leaves a giant hole in the pressure hull.

Lashing aircraft to a deck that is only a few scant metres from the waves is an invitation to disaster from salt water damage. Even though naval aircraft are designed to resist salt water corrosion, it would take a specially designed aircraft to remain operable after being in such close proximity to the waves.

OOC: I think everyone kinda misunderstood me.....the way it works is the flight deck is one of the actual decks inside the sub. Theres about 32 ft from the actual deck to the top of the hull so it isnt scantly close. The doors that are a part of the hull open (and i made them watertight, hence the use of water tight doors and expansion and compression joints)and slide underneath the stationary part of the hull (its kinda like a rectrable roof except curved and on a sub and the actual hull) and the deck stays where it is (inside the sub). The aircraft manuever straight up out of the sub when they take off. I think im going to lengthen the ship ajnd flight deck to actually be able to launch 10. To make it clear the doors are part of the hull, theres two doors that are the hull and im thinking of making another set of doors as a safety reserve. With this recent clearing up i think that holding 10 planes is possible. Does that clear everything up?

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