NationStates Jolt Archive

Background Among the lessons learned by the Incorporated Sarzonian Army during its failure in the Inkanan Civil War was the need for mobile artillery support. With a lack of such vehicles in the Incorporated Ordnance Company's arsenal, Army Chief Antonius Santius asked the IOC to develop a self-propelled artillery unit, and the result is the Z-38 Panther.

The Panther is slightly larger than the Russian-built MSTA-S 2S19 152 mm or the American-built Paladin 155 mm unit and carries an additional 40 mm grenade launcher. A lighter, EMP-hardened version of the Chobham armour system provides RHA values that give the Panther protection against light arms fire. Its integrated electronics system including GPS munitions guidance, night vision, and target acquisition and prioritisation software makes this a highly-advanced addition to your armoured infantry unit.

Z-38 'Panther' II A 155 mm self-propelled artillery unit
Length: 12.1 m with gun forward
Width: 3.6 m
Height: 2.7 m
Weight: 62,000 kg
Armament: 1 x 155 mm/57 calibre ETC gun with Dynamic Gas assist; 1 x 12.7 mm machine gun; 1 x 40 mm grenade launcher; 1 x smoke grenade launcher. Carries extended range, full bore (ERFB) shells.
Firing rate: Burst 3 rounds/10 seconds; Intense 9 rounds per min./4 min.; Sustained 5 rounds per min.
Range: 40 km
Armour: (RHA values) Front: 400 mm; Side: 250 mm; Top: 145 mm; Rear: 120 mm
Propulsion: One Windham & Green diesel/electric hybrid engine; 1,800 hp
Speed: 70 km/hr. road; 35 km/hr. over rough terrain
Electronics: Windham & Green Electronics TacWeap (Tactical Weapons) Suite featuring night vision, GPS-guided munitions, and target acquisition and priortisation software. Hard-wired, maximum encryption communications.
Crew: Five
Price: $6.5 million

OOC: Feedback? I've been working on trying to develop something like this for a while, but this is the first time I've really tried to put one up.

ooc: Some tips for you.

1.) Use an electrothermal cannon, you need the longer range.

2.) Related to the electrothermal cannon, you need some sort of extra assist, perhaps either coilgun or railgun assistance.

3.) Recoil reclaimation systems that power generators that recharge the ETC batteries.

4.) Too much armor for an artillery piece. If you're getting that close to the enemy, you're screwed anyway.

5.) Against the ground recoil bracing, or a moving recoil system.

6.) Fiber optic guided, remote controlled spotting unit would be nice.

7.) Add a coolant system to the barrel, which will allow more rapid fire.

8.) Use some sort of autoloader, cuts down on the crew complement and besides, some artillery shells are very heavy.

OOC:
A ) an ETC gun would increase the weight of this beast remarkably.
B ) the armour on it is little more than that on most NS IFVs/APCs
C ) only so much energy can be reclaimed; the vast majority of the energy expended to propel the shell would have been converted to heat, thus unreclamable
D ) cooling would be a good idea, but as SPGs/SPHs are generally shoot-and-scoot systems (thus evading counter-battery fire), such is not really important
E ) autoloaders are problematic both for maintenance issues, choice of shell issues, etc.; semi-automatic loading might be a better idea (via a armoured mini-magazine of six shells -- the crew complement is maintained, but more rapid fire is possible. Even so, many gun crews are as quick as an autoloader anyway.
F ) the machine gun shouldn't be coaxial; either a commander or crew station position that can be fired by remote control (overhead weapon system - OWS; currently in service with several nations and has been around since WW2 in aircraft, slightly later (1960s) in armoured vehicles)

ooc: I would think that since a Paladin only weighs 24 tons, this thing is undergunned anyway.

OOC: Its a good design, but perhaps some smoke grenade dischargers would be useful on it. The gun is about the right size, if it were any bigger the ammunition loadout would be a lot less. Plus the 155mm can easily put fire down at 24km+.

OOC: Will this be for sale? I'd definitely buy one.

OOC: Will this be for sale? I'd definitely buy one.OOC: Yes, it will be for sale once I finalise it.

ooc: I would think that since a Paladin only weighs 24 tons, this thing is undergunned anyway.
OOC: The British Army's AS90 weighs 45 tonnes, so maybe 52 tonnes (loaded) would be about right it if it's armoured up a bit.

Good work again, Sarzonia. I'll have to post my beasties sometime soon. :)

*tag*

Good work again, Sarzonia.Thanks! :)

I'll have to post my beasties sometime soon. :)Oh no! There go my sales! :( :p

Perhaps some more details on the actual gun. The gun is the single most important part of an SPG so you should be lavishing as much attention on it as possible.

For a start what sort of barrel length are we talking? a 39cal barrel as on the old M109 models or a 49-50cal gun as found on the likes of the AS-90 or are we getting in to 55-60cal range? (the fact it weight so much to me indicates you are mounting a very long gun)

Also what about firing ignition method, do you sue conventional, laser ignition (as on the crusader) or soemthign more exotic (electrical or soem sort of semi ETC system), then you cna move onto what ammo you use, if you use an advanced ignition system you can insensitive propellants and when you say its a 155mm gun does it use standard NATO 155mm ammo? or soemthing more exotic say ERGMs? ammo adopted from naval guns?

Once you get all this you can start thinking about rnage, a Vlong barreled gun with basic base bleed ammo is defiantly goign to reach 45km without too much difficulty, add ERGMs into the mix and soemthing in the 50-75km rnage is possible...

or you could go mad and make a tank mounted version of the 155mm AGS from the DDX....

I was actually thinking of putting in some smoke grenades... and I'll put some more details on the gun later.

Don't forget to add in rates of fire for the various modes; so you'll need sustained, rapid-fire, 1 minute burst and there's something else I'm sure but just check the Armytechnology for the AS90 and I'm sure it gives some examples.

*included details about weaponry*

Now what should I charge for this beastie?

I would say somewhere around 650,000- I imagine that's what things like the M109, G6, and AS 90 would cost.

Ive heard alot of interesting and new terms for special rifling patterns and such but I for the life of me have never heard of 'reverse rifing' and google turned up very little of precendence. Rifling as you know is a series of lands and grooves that bite into a projectile and impart spin on the projectile inorder to stabilize its flight path. it can either be a sprial tot he left or right, which is more a matter of manufacture more so than accuracy as the bullet has no prefference. The Ratio of one rotation in aa foot is important though and if the ratio is too high for the length of the round you can send the round tumbling, and with similarly unspectacular results if under stabalized.

But reversing the rifling is just replaceing the lands with grooves and the grooves with lands creating the same effect in the opposite direction. If it Switches ddirection mid path then id advise agaianst it highly as you run a good chance of fouling the barrel to all heck and back.

But then again Ive been busy lately and I may have missed some new tech for artillery, I suppose what I meant to ask is... what is reverse rifling?

After years of research at his Quebec firing range, Bull eventually settled on a solution. Instead of conventional rifling where the shell rides on raised "lands", his design effectively used "reversed rifling", grooves cut into the barrel. The shell rode the rifling via small "fins", and had no soft-metal area where the propellant could "blow by" the shell, allowing much more powerful propellants to be used. The resulting Extended Range, Full Bore (ERFB) ammunition was key to SRC's designs, a "pointy" looking shell that carried more explosive than conventional designs, had much lower drag at supersonic speeds, and was more accurate. For longer range applications he added a base bleed system, as well as an even longer-ranged system with a rocket booster.

From this site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GC-45_howitzer). That's the explanation of reversed rifling.

wow thats a misleading term... Anyways Im familiar with the priniciple its essentially a higher drag versions of cavelli's rifle. Well that explains it but I still wouldnt reccomend it for any sort of rapid fire or auoloading weapon, if the fins are off by well... a groove... your risking a whole new set of lines being carved into the barrel in a rather spectacular malfunction. To avoid this it would have to be carefully aligned and in an ideal situation for every round...

of which combat is definitely not an ideal situation.

Its not impossible, and its not a bad idea, its just I see alot of room for Murpheys law to interupt.

I would say somewhere around 650,000- I imagine that's what things like the M109, G6, and AS 90 would cost.
You're missing a zero . . .
The T-6 turret alone costs $2.4+ million, and that's without the Arjun chassis to put it on, and I've gotten word of 300 G6 guns being offered to India for about $1.5 billion, or $5 million each.

I'd say at least $6-8 million for the vehicle. It's got a complex loading system, a long barrel (I'm guessing), significant weight and armor, and a powerful engine, and if it's tracked, that settles it. And considering that SPGs generally cost at least as much as, if not more than comparable tanks, that would seem about right.


Oh yeah, I still don't see much in the way of range listings here. It would be a good idea if prospective buyers were aware of how far the gun can fire, and also what its MRSIT capability is, if any.

An impressive vehicle, Sarzonia. If it was amphibious, I'd buy some...considering the nature of the Robotic Archipelago, non-amphibious land vehicles don't have too much utility.

But the turret...do you think you might develop a navalized version? If you come up with something that can lob a shell over 45km, it might be useful on a gunboat hull.

*bump*

*added to Incorporated Ordnance Company (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=394656).