NationStates Jolt Archive

Being an old frequent of the International Incidences forums, I sometimes find myself coming in and having a good read on whats happening from time to time (although most of the time I think I stick to my own stuff). But one problem regarding these forums if you like, is the fact that there now exists a system of multiple earths. Understandibly so also, since there is an obvious need to sort out whom owns what. People here tend to be more earth territory crazy more than anything - a big fad anyone has to recognise. Problems about this though, is the fact that if someone claims to have Germany, this leaves about two hundred others who do the same thing. And so also understandibly, the people who were left out a bit went along and created their own version of earth - starting the earth craze as I like to call it. And now the forums (or roleplays therein) are suffering the results.

What you have now is a fractured world, whereby a roleplay is seperated into either Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth 5 Billion and whatnot. And isnt it a real kick in the nuts when you find someone interesting, but cant interact simply because you cant recognise them on the basis of location? I know its simply harder for newbs to get involved, because anything they want to post in is OMG CLOSED, or EARTH V ONLY. On behalf of myself I can tell you at least, that sometimes I actually want to post a thing or two here but simply dont have a place to. My name doesnt mean as much as it used to (since I now frequent Nationstates more than anything), so I cant exactly post my own thread. And I cant post in something already existing because the decent RPs are all of the above problem. Alas, I stick to what I am in now.

Anyhow, I sort of figured that this is a relevant topic for discussion if anyone is open to it, there would be a few with a similar outlook on the topic of agenda. I mean, maybe something new is in order? Before we had multiple earths, everyone in general recognised his or her own version. What I mean is that I had my set roleplaying circle (believe it or not there are many different circles who just dont come into contact at all), and I had my set recognised neighbours. I gave them these privilages because I knew them at the time, and if someone was to claim the same land then I would either ignore the fact (not specifically just pretend they are elsewhere when RPing with them), or I would not participate in the RP itself. All of the time, it depended on quality and how interested I was in the storyline rather than who owned what. I had my own idea on the general outline of the world, and those who didnt fit in the picture I didnt force out of it. I allowed them to remain as 'unknown'. Like Credonia whom I had no idea what kind of land he had, so I recognised him only as 'Credonia'. Dr_Twist I recognised his claims, except for one which actually placed him almost inside my own borders. I simply pretended he was ON my border, rather than within it as he would have claimed.

What Im really saying is more of a question. What is the importance of having particular land claims anyway, can one not have his or her OWN picture of the world around him? This is what I think what should be anyhow, each individual operating his or her own map as he likes to recognise it. Not some random dictating who owns what toward you. Discuss this, since I am interested in each of your own opinion on the topic.

I agree that the earth fad has to go. All it does is create a very high schoolish grouping system in which you must meet a certain requirement to "hang out" with them. In this case that requirement is to have land on a particular earth. I also know of a few nations who have claims on multiple earths, which would probably be the best option for anyone wanting to not be restricted to a certain role playing group. The one thing I do not like about the multiple earth system is that it isolates a lot of nations from the rest, dividing some really good role players from the rest of the world and making it so that some do not even know who they are.

Personally, having owned claims on an earth, and as I am now, just role playing with a fictional island, I would rather see the earths disbanded and go back to the, mildly confusing, times of everyone role playing with everyone, and ignoring those who had land claims in the same area someone you recognized had, or do as Austar Union said and just recognize parts when they do not overlap into someone's land you are closer to.

This does create the problem of having massive ooc battles between two nations that are having a land dispute, turning into flame wars and the such, and then leading to the mass ignoring of one of the nations by a group of nations. So really, there will always be the high schoolish groups of people who tend to stay together when role playing, but I would rather see the "walls" torn down between the earths and go back to the good ole' days.

I like how Nascent put it, having the multiple earths has only segregated the roleplayers of NS into little groups that don't seem to play together well with others. I really do prefer the old days when peole roleplayed between their actual nations and not silly little land claims in a numbered earth.

Not much of an addition, but that's my $0.02.

I completely agree. A couple of months ago I was going to get involved with a thread but was told that because I wasnt an Earth something nation that I could not.

Obviously this is a bit of a handicap for me because now Earth I is mainly stagnant with very few RP's going on (that I have seen there are probably more out there) and as this is the only Earth that I have a claim on I fear that now the only way for me to get involved in a good RP will be to either start taking over claims on another Earth, or create a smaller nation with which to do it.

I remember when i first started on the forums a couple of years ago, there was just one earth and everybody could RP where they wanted. Of course NS was a lot smaller then, and no offence to the new players, but in my opinion the standard of roleplaying was higher. Although saying that there are several extremely good RP'ers rising through the NS ranks.

I wrote something like this many months ago as Holy Panooly, titled The Flawed Concept of Multple Earths. Many people agreed, some didn't and nothing has changed. Me myself I don't RP with them anymore (but I still own them) because Russian Forces is gone and the other people are either gone or inactive. Look what happened with Earth III, a magnificent example why earths fail.

Stop with the earths and call it a day.

If given players only interact with nations that have claims on their particular Earth, then that is their loss, not ours. Me, I'll RP with anyone. I founded the region of Qer Tu specificly so I could have a concrete, non-Earth based geographic location. These Earth claim zealots are in the minority, and are only hurting themselves. And anyhow, if someone is so obssessed with having a land claim on Earth (which is usually something really intelligent like: I claim Germany, Poland, and Lithuania :rolleyes: ) that they refuse to interact with anyone that does not enthusiasticly recognize said claim, then they're probably not worth RPing with anyway.

I hear you on all counts. I'm a n00b here-openly admitted, I grant you- And I find that the only RP I ever get to do at the moment is in the Storefronts. It's just irritating because there are so many good RP threads out there, and some very good players too, that are inaccessible thanks to the Earth (X) system.

Any call to scrap it, and I'm right behind you.

I try and completely stay out of claiming or rping with actual RL geographic regions and nations. With so many nations in NS it is impossible to even fit all of the nations into one hundred different earths, much less the five or six that 'exist' as it is. Besides, it's much more fun to create your own lands, own ethnic and national identities than it is to use what's normal in RL.

If I wanted to play a RL life earth scenario game, I wouldn't do it on NS.

Belive it or not... the earths are good for RPing, seeing as it sets an actual situation for people to work from and also a set distance which may help people with figuring out how important logistics really are. then, there's the downside, which many of you have stated, is that it is far too secluded, and I agree. I'm not for ousting it but I do think we need something different.

As a recent Earth starter and owner I kind of like it. Though I encourage all my Claimers to RP with anyone else they want. I don't say "Hey stay here!" I say. "Get your asses out there!" But you see it's also kind of good to have an Earth. That way you can do an RP where you know where everyone is. Then you can fuckin fight to the death or whatever.......if you want. Or not. Whatever. No big thang either way. Now let's get back to RPing.

Being an old frequent of the International Incidences forums, I sometimes find myself coming in and having a good read on whats happening from time to time (although most of the time I think I stick to my own stuff). But one problem regarding these forums if you like, is the fact that there now exists a system of multiple earths. Understandibly so also, since there is an obvious need to sort out whom owns what. People here tend to be more earth territory crazy more than anything - a big fad anyone has to recognise. Problems about this though, is the fact that if someone claims to have Germany, this leaves about two hundred others who do the same thing.
Each earth has a claims thread listing who owns what. This has never been a problem.

What you have now is a fractured world, whereby a roleplay is seperated into either Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth 5 Billion and whatnot. And isnt it a real kick in the nuts when you find someone interesting, but cant interact simply because you cant recognise them on the basis of location? I know its simply harder for newbs to get involved, because anything they want to post in is OMG CLOSED, or EARTH V ONLY. On behalf of myself I can tell you at least, that sometimes I actually want to post a thing or two here but simply dont have a place to. My name doesnt mean as much as it used to (since I now frequent Nationstates more than anything), so I cant exactly post my own thread. And I cant post in something already existing because the decent RPs are all of the above problem. Alas, I stick to what I am in now.
I agree here... the earths need to go because they are fragmenting II into lots of small groups which lack enough experienced players to be truely fun. "A Modern World" and "World at War" also have a lot to answer for.

Anyhow, I sort of figured that this is a relevant topic for discussion if anyone is open to it, there would be a few with a similar outlook on the topic of agenda. I mean, maybe something new is in order? Before we had multiple earths, everyone in general recognised his or her own version. What I mean is that I had my set roleplaying circle (believe it or not there are many different circles who just dont come into contact at all), and I had my set recognised neighbours. I gave them these privilages because I knew them at the time, and if someone was to claim the same land then I would either ignore the fact (not specifically just pretend they are elsewhere when RPing with them), or I would not participate in the RP itself. All of the time, it depended on quality and how interested I was in the storyline rather than who owned what.
This sounds very NS clique-like, which is basically the same as earths in terms of fragmentation except that under this system you dont have the one earth advantage of actually being able to see where everyone is on a map.

What Im really saying is more of a question. What is the importance of having particular land claims anyway, can one not have his or her OWN picture of the world around him? This is what I think what should be anyhow, each individual operating his or her own map as he likes to recognise it. Not some random dictating who owns what toward you. Discuss this, since I am interested in each of your own opinion on the topic.
This seems extermely confusing. I agree that Earths should go, but only to be replaced with a larger II forum (like there used to be) where everyone RPs in the same "universe".

Sorry if I misinterpretted and I apologise for the shortish post... I'm rather tired.

I don't mind a system where people who know each other and are comfortable with each other can RP together; however, I don't like Earths that give off some kind of "if you're not in this Earth stay out" vibe. I graduated high school too long ago to subscribe to that kind of thinking. However, one it got to around Earth III, I just decided I didn't want to bother with all the Earths and I have largely stayed out of them. I think there are just too many of them with rules that are far too exclusionary for there to be a positive RP experience for a wide number of people.

Generally I concider it like this: (probably the fifth time I've explained this now in similar threads about why certain posters OOC hate Earth threads, I've never started my own rant topic about them because... well, it's not my style)

You get a spot in a Earth thread, you take something like a South African nation (to pull one at random) and then you either RP that nation as specifically being you're nation with the same name it's always had, or worse, you take it over only having to fight against an NPC force and add it to your empire.

To be fair, I generally don't mind these that much, I mean I actually get on with nations like Knoot who claims the Netherlands for his nation "Knootoss" because he's from there and it's easier for him to do so... all this means to me is that his nation is on a Europe like continent and it looks like Holland. Is it actually Holland? Does Iuthia actually exist? Of course not! Ultimately he's just using his home country as a template for his NS country which is all well and good.

What if another guy claims Holland? Should they argue about who is Holland? Personally I don't think so and I don't think Knoot would argue about such a thing because ultimately he's Knootoss, a nation which looks like Holland on a Europe like contintent... these is nothing stoping another nation being like Holland but being a different nation with a different name and history.

So thats that... both nations are still in my Nationstates, I don't have to ignore one because Knoot is Holland and the other isn't as they are both Holland-like nations which are geographically in different parts of the world. This way it makes sense and you can have a million Hollands and not have to worry about them clashing. It would be dull, but the system works.


Then you have those people who don't claim a Real Life nation for the perpose of a template for their own Nationstates nation, who actually roleplay the invasion of a nation from the real world we exist in... I've seen people RPing the invasion of Africa (tons of that), the middle east and even Ireland just to add them to their nations Empire, or perhaps because they feel that RPing an invasion of those lands will explain how their nation will solve Real Life issues in these nations.

Personally I don't like that type of abuse in Earth threads... firstly because they generally don't have to worry about other Nationstates with real people controlling the nations. They get to play the Real Life nation themselves instead of having to fight another player, it's a dream for many because it eliminates the annoying arguements about technology and superiority. It also means there is no threat of losing anything significant which they aren't prepared to lose... a good RPer will lose something but eitherway they are still able to control the thread completely.

Secondly it allows them to act out imperialism without the problem of having to conquer a real nationstate. The fact they are fighting an NPC makes it less offencive to some though other do gooders may get involved. In fact, the fact do gooders may get involved is sometimes used to goad these do gooders into conflicts with imperialist nations.

Finally, they can claim that the extra land is additional to the nation they roleplay. Depending on how this is done, I may or may not have to ignore the land. Basically if someone takes over an NPC territory like a part of South Africa, I will not accept them pumping up thier nations population because of that imperialist move... they can claim that the land taken added to their population for the perposes of explaining their current population (for example, it's unrealistic that most nations in NS are several billion people in size, so imperialist moves explain where all the people come from... you're stats are the same but explained by the fact you are taking other nations).

Furthermore, I concider these nations to not be real world nations, they may have the same name as Iraq and so on, but it isn't the Iraq because that doesn't exist in NS, NS is fantasy. No one person can claim Iraq and tell everyone else to fuck off because it doesn't exist. It's just an Iraq like nation and others could invade nations like it and call it "Iraq" and still get the same recognition.


However land is aquired and whatever perpose it's used for, I will concider them to be Fantasy nations which may be based on Real Life examples, no one person owns the rights to a Real Life nation so everyone can have land which looks like them and call them what they want to call them.

The one thing which will be ignored is when someone takes land in order to bump their nationstates stats up... generally I ignore that even when someone annexs another players land, so some guy invading an NPC nation and claiming to get another hundred million people from it on top of their population will be ignored. It's a simple policy.


Generally I avoid RPing in Earth threads as they are generally to themselves... I have little interest in them. Though I don't ignore nations who are part of Earth threads and I only ignore their territory if they GODMOD it... otherwise they are all still part of NS, if you don't want to be in the NS world and then you don't exist as far as I'm concerned.


I hope thats an easy system to understand really. I like to think it's the best way of dealing with the silly fad without ignoring a ton of people. Every nation exists in the NS Universe, or they don't exist at all.

(Some may recognise this arguement, but then agian, I recognise threads like this coming around every two months and I still feel this is how it should be dealt with.)

I find myself in agreement once again with most of the posters here.

Multiple Earths as a concept has really got to go unless they want to RP them in seperate forums (I mean you only need a small invision one for christs sake) they clog up the I.I. forum with Player grouping threads.

As a rule I do not recognise any Earth and have converted all my old Earth territory (Earth 0 and used to have some in Earth V or VI (can't remember which) into different named territories (Urbania and Valvatica), which I have made a back story of how I came into possession of them. As well as producing maps for all of them.

Effectively if we just RPed in a single version of the universe/planet it would make the whole concepts much more efficent and effective (allowing easier production of troop deployments on maps).

HOWEVER why has this phenomenon come about?

In my opinion it is because for some newer players especially it can be perceived as hard to think up original territory ideas, produce maps and name various major settlements. Thus it is much easier to grab lets say a map of the World and say 'I want Norway/Panama or Russia' or even a map of the Universe (from a Sci-Fi series) and say they want 'Minbar, Earth and Vorlon' or something...

Sorry it's not very well put but I hope you get the jist of what I am saying.

I don't see why we should ignore them. Crimson Sith has the right idea... roleplay with anyone as you would normally and if they bitch at you for not being in their Earth then it's their loss.

I can always find someone else to RP with and if they don't want to be part of the same NS universe then they can enjoy playing in the same group of nations until they see the light.

I don't see why we should ignore them. Crimson Sith has the right idea... roleplay with anyone as you would normally and if they bitch at you for not being in their Earth then it's their loss.

I can always find someone else to RP with and if they don't want to be part of the same NS universe then they can enjoy playing in the same group of nations until they see the light.

Not advocating an ignore, basically thinking the same thing you said but in my own way.

Iuthia brings up a great point which I think I should have extended upon in my original post. One can say that he has invaded Iraq for example, but they have not invaded the Iraq as we know it. One may base his invaded territory on a real life example, but they will never, never own a country. One confusion I imagine people have, is that all they are looking for really is a point of reference as to where is X nation, and where is Y nation. I imagine that one doesnt exactly need to know these details (the Nationstates forum is able to BASE themselves on RL nations if they choose to even, but not refer themselves to that particular base - such as Knootoss in Iuthia's example). Most will actually recognise Knootoss as very similar to the Netherlands because he roleplays that type of culture, language characteristics et cetera, not because he says hes the Netherlands. And anyone else who wants to have a Dutch base is allowed to because nobody ever said that the base idea has been taken for nobody else' use.

Personally, I like to roleplay a bit of a mixed base, whereby I suppose its mixed up a bit of Dutch, German, Austrian, English etc. Whether I want to build a history about these base nations or not is my own desision, but there never will be a time where I AM these nations, and willing to exclude anyone else who want to use them as a base for their own. There is no The Netherlands, there is Knootoss. There is no Italy, there is Dread Lady Nathicana. And the list goes on. There are no RL countries in nationstates, but rather fictional examples and representative players who like to be similar to these states. For two to fight over how each 'owns' Poland for example, is foolish because each can have a Polish based culture, language et cetera. They can even work between each other to include each other in their less-modern history if they want (given that they perhaps originated from the same people). And as for their locations, its completely up to them how distant they are from each other - roleplay on the other side of the world, roleplay nearby I dont care. Its between the two players to decide. In fact, some even like to create regional maps for easy identification if they want a map in the first place.

I agree here... the earths need to go because they are fragmenting II into lots of small groups which lack enough experienced players to be truely fun. "A Modern World" and "World at War" also have a lot to answer for.

A Modern World can be held accountable for this but not W@W. W@W has its own forums and it does not disrupt the RPing on NationStates at all.

A Modern World can be held accountable for this but not W@W. W@W has its own forums and it does not disrupt the RPing on NationStates at all.
Indeed. I still dont particularly like any of those things, even W@W, because they're seeing that II isnt exactly amazing and then leaving for another site, which is fair enough, but that just makes II drop even more because all the active, experienced players are leaving. Loads are going to NS. I think it's mostly because there's nothing happening anymore, and what was happening wasnt ended through RP but through OOC means. Ie. NATO / RWC basically ignored each other, and DA was deleted and his "Bloc" crumbled. Meh.

Not going to get too side-tracked here, but DA needed deleting... aside from the fact that he played an interesting evil presence time and time again, the fact is he godmoded his nation up a ton (at one point it had over 5% of his population in the military with more in volunteery units), made his own Earth and tended to completely and utterly miss the subtlies of writing plots with sex in (instead of fading out and implying the sick acts his people commit, he would describe them poorly in detail).

However I do kinda agree that International Incidents has been damaged by the fact most nations pile into a thread without any realistic thought to why their nation is getting involved in the first place... huge alliances tend to get on peoples nerves these days too, as they all pile in if they get the chance due to boredom. Furthermore, few people respect the players behind the nation these days... it's all about totally beating the other player down and teaching them a lesson, not about the interesting plots such conflicts could create. Learn something people - NS isn't about totally defeating your enemy, doing that destroys plot potential, even if your nation is likely to do it, you don't have to suceed, giving people something to work with is better in the long run as you can do it all again differently in the future.

Of course, the best way around these problems of boredom would be to create more RPs... everyone is caught up on designing these days in International Incidents, at least a third of the threads out there are about new ships and technological discussions about said ships but there isn't much actually happening... Guffingford (as much as I would hate to admit it) has been keeping up a steady stream of events in his nation, a few others are following suit. There are lots of possibilities for what your nation could be doing and if you are lucky (or unlucky depending on your view) people will take interest and join in.

My next RP may or may not be in the International Incidents forum depending on how I work it all out... there are very few threads of mine which haven't been largely IC, from the long awaited and planned wedding of my leader to the recently developed and tested FTL drives for my space fleet. All that in the middle of what has been a fairly active period for me as I've got various allies running things too which I'm a part of.

But if you really want stuff to happen in II, someone has to write stuff and if it's no one else, there is no reason why it can't be you.

I feel I must step in support of the Earth Series. I have quite a good number of reasons and benefits that the Earth Series can have.



1. God-modding nation sizes, continents, landmasses, or terrain.

In NS Earth players can change their land at will. What's to stop them from being an island nation then suddenly change it to an land-locked nation? Or reside on Hawaii type island chain, then magically snap their fingers to create an Asia sized continent right next to the original Hawaii island-type landmass?

In the Earth Series, you cannot god-mod your territory, terrain, landmasses, or continents. In Earth, you can't magically create or sink whole continents or regions. You are stuck with what is already in existence in that particular Earth. If you choose to be situated in Japan, you can't magically triple or 10x Japan's landmass. You're stuck with Japan's RL landmass, with perhaps some small scale artifical land (landfills or raising land in bits like what was done in Boston).

What's more... in NS Earth, what's to stop someone from claiming they occupy a 20,000 mile wide and 5,000 mile long landmass? Then they'd have like 100 mountain ranges, lots of empty space, millions of places to hide underground cities, etc.

In Earth Series, your land claims are limited, and you work from there instead of "OMG! 10,000 mile wide contient! RAWRRR!"



2. Resource wanking.

In NS Earth, I've seen many nations assume they are fully self-sufficient in regards to oil, uranium, titanium, etc. In addition, in NS Earth people can simply say "I have 1 trillion tons of titanium deposits in my 10,000 mile wide landmass! RAWRRR!". In NS Earh, resource value doesn't mean crap. Anyone can claim they have plenty of rare resources like gold, diamonds, platinum, etc. which means they could have $100 trillion tied up in those deposits, then use that $100 trillion to wank up their military. In NS Earth, a lot of military hardware and equipment are built using exotic or un-common materials, unlike in RL Earth. In RL Earth, it'd be cost-prohibitive to build 90% of the NS tech's and uber-stuff, because of resources.

In the Earth Series, you have to actually deal with strategic resources, like oil in Middle East, coal in Brazil and Australia, uranium in Canada, etc. Nations can't be self-sufficient like they are in NS Earth, as nations would have to either trade or fight for raw resources in Earth Series.

This adds a whole new level of RP rarely seen in NS Earth, which should be a part of what makes your nation a nation. Your nation is rich in a resource but poor in another. This brings us to the next point...



3. Trade and Embargoes.

In NS Earth, trade is not important, and rarely taken seriously. The only apparent trades in NS Earth would be technologies and storefronts. In NS Earth, nations appear to be self-sufficient, not needing to trade with anyone else except in technology (so to wank-up their own military and such to match the other nation) or money selling military stuff.

Trade embargoes and sanctions mean literally zero, because the target nation can easily claim "Oh! I have 100 other nations I can get oil, uranium, titanium, etc. from. Too bad! Hahaha!". What's more, if an embargo does happen, it usually ends up two ways... poof as never exist, or result into massive dogpiles and subsquent IGNORES.

In the Earth Series, trade is much more important, and adds more RP possibilities. In those Earth's, you have to trade, say, oil for uranium, or titanium for gold. There are resource rich and resource poor areas in Earth Series, which add a new dimension to RP. People located in, say, the Middle East, can't claim "OMG! I have enough metal to build 3,000 ships and 20,000 tanks!". Ditto for South Africa, Ireland, Greenland, etc.

Embargoes will have much more effect, as you would be blocked from acquiring the resource you need, and you won't have 100 - 1000 other nations supplying you with the "blocked" resource in the Earth Series. You would have to deal with the blockade, instead of copping out or saying "No effect. Haha!"



4. Dog-piling and n00bishness.

In NS Earth, it is very easy for huge dog-piles to take place. Take Feline Catfish and the whole nuke situation. Then all the OOC and IC bullshit that folllowed that. Then right after that, people dog-piled on Call To Power for trying to do the right thing, and making hypocrites out of themselves. Even the original "anti-dogpilers" went and dogpiled upon Call To Power, a tiny nation of 10 - 20 million at that time.

It is very easy for a single newcomer nation (or any single nation in particular) to find itself a target, being attacked by 10+ massive nations. That ruins RP big-time.

What's more, in NS Earth, using 10,000 nukes would have little to no effect on the planet as a whole. People would say "Oh well" and move on, ignoring the massive clouds of radiation, a nuclear winter, horrible mutations, high cancer rates, etc. Ditto for other WMD's like biological and chemical weapons.

However, in Earth Series, those issues are reduced by a lot. In Earth Series, you can plan strategy and tactics aganist invaders, as you'd know the exact terrain, both yours and his. Dogpiles are much less likely to happen, mainly because of the lower number of people involved or willing to dogpile in Earth's. Claiming territory also discourages dog-piles, and may even turn dog-pilers aganist themselves as they fight each other for "true" ownership of the invaded territory.

WMD's are much more of a real threat in Earth Series, capable of ending all life on Earth. However, in NS Earh, people liberally use nukes and WMD's with no regard for their consquences because they go "Oh, NS Earth is so big it doesn't even matter." WMD's lose their seriousness and threat compared to RL Earth.



5. Scientific Possibility / Impossibility.

NS Earth wouldn't even be able to exist due to laws of physics and gravity. It is generally assumed that NS Earth is the size of Jupiter, or at the very least 100x the size of RL Earth. This opens up a whole can of worms.

First, a planet 100x the size of Earth would have its mass increased proportionally. This means the larger planet would have far more gravity than RL Earth. Something weighing in at 100 pounds here in RL Earth would weigh like 4+ tons (8000 pounds) on Jupiter because of mass on gravity effect.

Second, with this extreme gravity, it would be impossible for terrestrial (or Earth-like) life and ecosystems to develop on such large planets. The gravity would be too great for even insects to evolve and develop. Even ants who can carry 50x their body weight would be squashed by the sheer gravity of a Jupiter planet.

Third, humans wouldn't be able to evolve on such a planet because their bodies are suited for 1-G planets, namely Earth and planets same size / gravity as Earth. For Jupiter planets, humans would need legs 1000x stronger than they have now, and their blood systems, digestive system, etc. would have to be far, far, far stronger and forceful to get anything moving inside them. Plainly, this isn't possible.

Finally, even if the Jupiter size planet had water and the like, erosion would be extremely powerful, aided by the extreme gravity. Mountains would smooth out quicker than in RL Earth, landmasses would be eroded quickly by super-strong waves, and the like.

However, if we play Earth as it is, we play it naturally, without defying all logic, physics, and scientific facts.



There may be some more things I haven't thought of yet, but these 5 points are my main beefs aganist NS Earth's.

1. God-modding nation sizes, continents, landmasses, or terrain.

In NS Earth players can change their land at will. What's to stop them from being an island nation then suddenly change it to an land-locked nation? Or reside on Hawaii type island chain, then magically snap their fingers to create an Asia sized continent right next to the original Hawaii island-type landmass?


Having a map on a factbook usually stops this... anyone invading a nation should do their research first, though personally I think invading a nation is pretty stupid in most cases as you can only do it if you have massive superiority.


In the Earth Series, you cannot god-mod your territory, terrain, landmasses, or continents. In Earth, you can't magically create or sink whole continents or regions. You are stuck with what is already in existence in that particular Earth. If you choose to be situated in Japan, you can't magically triple or 10x Japan's landmass. You're stuck with Japan's RL landmass, with perhaps some small scale artifical land (landfills or raising land in bits like what was done in Boston).

However, this doesn't stop people on Earth from just taking over a large landmass and claiming the people (who are NPC's controlled by them) accept their annexation and that there is little problems with the transition. In fact, Earth threads have been horribly abused like this before. Sure, your land is limited, but then again, land isn't what makes a nation. Having a fuckton of land stretches your resources.


2. Resource wanking.

In NS Earth, I've seen many nations assume they are fully self-sufficient in regards to oil, uranium, titanium, etc.

Any nation in NS doing this and existing without trade is usually seen as a godmoder...


In the Earth Series, you have to actually deal with strategic resources, like oil in Middle East, coal in Brazil and Australia, uranium in Canada, etc. Nations can't be self-sufficient like they are in NS Earth, as nations would have to either trade or fight for raw resources in Earth Series.

This adds a whole new level of RP rarely seen in NS Earth, which should be a part of what makes your nation a nation. Your nation is rich in a resource but poor in another. This brings us to the next point...

Iuthia (and many other nations I RP with) are poor in some resources and rich in others... it's almost as though I don't trade at all or buy obcenely large amounts of food for my people.


3. Trade and Embargoes.

In NS Earth, trade is not important, and rarely taken seriously. The only apparent trades in NS Earth would be technologies and storefronts. In NS Earth, nations appear to be self-sufficient, not needing to trade with anyone...

Odd, you seem to ignore the fact that organisations like KIST or the Trade Network Association exist entirely for that perpose, or that I have over a dozen nations on my own nations trade list providing me with goods I need as well as my own nations selling goods...

Trade embargoes and sanctions mean literally zero, because the target nation can easily claim "Oh! I have 100 other nations I can get oil, uranium, titanium, etc. from. Too bad! Hahaha!". What's more, if an embargo does happen, it usually ends up two ways... poof as never exist, or result into massive dogpiles and subsquent IGNORES.

Thats because in NS thousands of nations do exist... but then again, if a small nation says "I'm not going to trade with you" even in the Earth series, it doesn't mean you are going to be largely affected now does it? Trade embargoes have an effect if you are trading with said nation in the first place... many nations in NS actually have their trade links partly worked out and stick to their allies where they can... it's not perfect but then agian few things are.

Trade is important to some of us, we RP it just as much as you guys do, only we don't limit ourself to a single Earth which lacks the imagination of fantasy nations. If someone who I RP with as trading important goods to Iuthia pulls out, I have to find someone else to fill the hole fast as it damages my economy... however it works both ways most of the time.

"No effect" only happens with nations who don't have connections with you.
But we can ignore that because apparrently trade embargoes always affect you in Earth threads, even if it's a pissant little nation you aren't trading with.

4. Dog-piling and n00bishness.

In NS Earth, it is very easy for huge dog-piles to take place. Take Feline Catfish and the whole nuke situation. Then all the OOC and IC bullshit that folllowed that. Then right after that, people dog-piled on Call To Power for trying to do the right thing, and making hypocrites out of themselves. Even the original "anti-dogpilers" went and dogpiled upon Call To Power, a tiny nation of 10 - 20 million at that time.

However, in Earth Series, those issues are reduced by a lot. In Earth Series, you can plan strategy and tactics aganist invaders, as you'd know the exact terrain, both yours and his. Dogpiles are much less likely to happen, mainly because of the lower number of people involved or willing to dogpile in Earth's. Claiming territory also discourages dog-piles, and may even turn dog-pilers aganist themselves as they fight each other for "true" ownership of the invaded territory.

Well, if you conveniently forget the rest of NS, dog-piling is much less likely to happen, but then again you also limit your RP possibilities by ignoring the rest of the world.


WMD's are much more of a real threat in Earth Series, capable of ending all life on Earth. However, in NS Earh, people liberally use nukes and WMD's with no regard for their consquences because they go "Oh, NS Earth is so big it doesn't even matter." WMD's lose their seriousness and threat compared to RL Earth.

Personally I treat WMD with respect... other people on NS can be very n00bish about them, such as with the FC situation. They ignored the fact that the nation could destroy their invading force and were stupid enougn to try and force them into it.

Of course, our technology level is higher but WMD are still a threat... if people are good RPers they will treat them with respect, but then again, I bet if some Earth nation tried to just nuke the world without giving you a chance, you would ignore it too... even though they can easily do it.


5. Scientific Possibility / Impossibility.

Thats rather dull... who would have throught we're in a fantasy setting.

There may be some more things I haven't thought of yet, but these 5 points are my main beefs aganist NS Earth's.

Meh, NS Earth is the game, but if you treat it right it's very rewarding... sure, you can play in your own Earth if you like, I'm not going to stop you, but I see it as dull and boring to limit myself in such a setting.

(Before you question my post count I am a puppet)

I believe that these Earths came about to stop the confusing situation of who is where, and progressively evolved into "who gets which landmass" after the pressure from those who prefer to play their own RL countries (Patriotism? I seem to notice a lot of nations playing America)

However, this doesn't stop people on Earth from just taking over a large landmass and claiming the people (who are NPC's controlled by them) accept their annexation and that there is little problems with the transition. In fact, Earth threads have been horribly abused like this before. Sure, your land is limited, but then again, land isn't what makes a nation. Having a fuckton of land stretches your resources.

NPC wanking happens everywhere. Many of the Earths (Earth's?) lack the rules and structure to stop this. Stronger rules and more mature RPers generally deal with this pretty well, like the AMW community.

Odd, you seem to ignore the fact that organisations like KIST or the Trade Network Association exist entirely for that perpose, or that I have over a dozen nations on my own nations trade list providing me with goods I need as well as my own nations selling goods...


I applaud you for actually RPing trade. Most people don't bother, probably because to them war is more fun and trade is comparatively less exciting.

4. Dog-piling and n00bishness.

In NS Earth, it is very easy for huge dog-piles to take place. Take Feline Catfish and the whole nuke situation. Then all the OOC and IC bullshit that folllowed that. Then right after that, people dog-piled on Call To Power for trying to do the right thing, and making hypocrites out of themselves. Even the original "anti-dogpilers" went and dogpiled upon Call To Power, a tiny nation of 10 - 20 million at that time.

However, in Earth Series, those issues are reduced by a lot. In Earth Series, you can plan strategy and tactics aganist invaders, as you'd know the exact terrain, both yours and his. Dogpiles are much less likely to happen, mainly because of the lower number of people involved or willing to dogpile in Earth's. Claiming territory also discourages dog-piles, and may even turn dog-pilers aganist themselves as they fight each other for "true" ownership of the invaded territory.

That's probably because of the comparatively smaller number of nations in each Earth. Now if you had 60-70 nations in an Earth, I'm pretty sure the same thing would happen.

I agree here... the earths need to go because they are fragmenting II into lots of small groups which lack enough experienced players to be truely fun. "A Modern World" and "World at War" also have a lot to answer for.

Good players tend to stick together, even if they don't get on well ICly.

Not going to get too side-tracked here, but DA needed deleting... aside from the fact that he played an interesting evil presence time and time again, the fact is he godmoded his nation up a ton (at one point it had over 5% of his population in the military with more in volunteery units), made his own Earth and tended to completely and utterly miss the subtlies of writing plots with sex in (instead of fading out and implying the sick acts his people commit, he would describe them poorly in detail).
I'm not saying he didnt deserve deletion, Im just saying that having every single "evil" nation or Bloc constantly being either deleted or mass ignored is really destroying II.

"One Earth or no Earth(s)"

- noisy NS citizen up the back of the hall

I think the Earths in general are poorly-disguised cliques. However, some Earths, such as the Alternate History Earth I've recently joined, exist for for a purpose of RPing a large-scale story over a long period of time, and that is fine in my opinion. And to be fair, sometimes you just like to have a picture in your mind of what your nation would look like in real-life. I know that's why I RP with the majority of my claims. It's a personal thing, really.

I realize that some of this may seem hypocritical, coming from someone with multiple claims on RL land, but I am not beholden to those claims. I've always been open to working out something OOCly in order to be able to RP. For example, I was just reading the diplomacy thread by a new nation who was RPing as South Africa. In a concrete Earth system, the two of us would not be able to RP at all, since he is the Republic of South Africa and South Africa happens to be one of my most important colonies in my own little world. However, should I ever want to get involved in an RP with him, I am more than willing to TG him or talk over an instant messenger, and work things out. That way, we have a solution which is acceptable to both sides, and we can RP with each other instead of just ignoring one another because we have conflicting land claims.

I think if more of the Earth x+1 players would take a similar approach, the vast majority of the problem would disappear, I think.

I just remembered one more very important benefit of Earth Series.

Writing your own Alternate History.

Imagine if the Roman Empire never collapsed? Imagine if the Confederates won the Civil War? Imagine if Germany was never unified under Bismarck? Communism never took hold in Russia? Germany won WW II? The Apollo missions were more successful? Spain succeeded in invading England in the 1500's?

All those possibilities on a RL Earth would be a good thing to RP. You can RP your nation as a past, modern, or future nation based off those alternate history scenarios. You cannot do that on NS Earth.

My nation is based in the Americas, on the premise of "What if the Incas actually won over the Spanish" or "What if the Native Americans developed at the same speed as the Europeans".

Thus, a powerful nation emerges by pre-MT times, preventing European imperialism in the New World, no USA formed, then the Inca Empire covers North and South America. This is one big reason I like to play Earth Series, as it allows me to RP alternate histories and believable ones at that.

That's nice, but it isnt nationstates.

I dont mind the RPing and such of the Earths, I just think that if they want to RP outside of NS Earth, they should go and make THEIR OWN FORUM to RP on.
I have my own Earth, I like to think of myself as somewhat differnt because my Earth is fantasy-based and thereby RP's something that generaly isnt accepted on II or NS, and it has its own forum. There is only ONE The Earth Fantastic thread active on NS at any time, and thats the recruiting thread.

Thus, I think it should be a RULE that if you make a seperate Earth, it HAS to have its own forum, with ONLY the recruiting topic here, or maybe in Gameplay.
It would clear up NS for the actual II RPers, and get rid of the annoying OMG AMW ONLY! topics, and suchlike.

Again, I have nothing against the Earths and AMW, except the fact that they have 10,000,000 threads on II and knock the public RP's down to the third page after five minutes.

So, go make your own damn forum and stop clogging this one up!

That's nice, but it isnt nationstates.

I believe you are wrong in this case.

Nationstates is where you create, develop, model, and RP out your nation. If you want to create a nation based off alternate history, you can do it here no problem.

Or people can RP their nation emerging from a collapse of the USA, Russia, China, etc. in an alternate Earth. Basically all the Earth Series are alternate Earth's which the RL nations collapsed into anarchy, had civil wars, or similiar things, then NS nations with their unique names grow out of the ashes. At least that's how it'd realistically happen.

So I repeat myself, nationstates is all about freeform RP'ing your own nation. Let it be a magic nation, an alternate history nation, or whatever type of nation you so desire.

I dont mind the RPing and such of the Earths, I just think that if they want to RP outside of NS Earth, they should go and make THEIR OWN FORUM to RP on.
I have my own Earth, I like to think of myself as somewhat differnt because my Earth is fantasy-based and thereby RP's something that generaly isnt accepted on II or NS, and it has its own forum. There is only ONE The Earth Fantastic thread active on NS at any time, and thats the recruiting thread.

Thus, I think it should be a RULE that if you make a seperate Earth, it HAS to have its own forum, with ONLY the recruiting topic here, or maybe in Gameplay.
It would clear up NS for the actual II RPers, and get rid of the annoying OMG AMW ONLY! topics, and suchlike.

Again, I have nothing against the Earths and AMW, except the fact that they have 10,000,000 threads on II and knock the public RP's down to the third page after five minutes.

So, go make your own damn forum and stop clogging this one up!

Two things.

1. Some of us aren't computer savvy people or Information Technology geniuses people who know every detail, know-how, and basics of creating off-site forums, even Invision. In addition, people may not have access to a web server or web authoring software to create their own non-Invision forums.

2. You might as well demand all storefronts, tech discussions, and such to different forums. Hey, why not split up I.I. into smaller and smaller forums, until there are 10 - 20 different I.I. sub-forums. That would make things a lot more complicated and crazy.

Two things.

1. Some of us aren't computer savvy people or Information Technology geniuses people who know every detail, know-how, and basics of creating off-site forums, even Invision. In addition, people may not have access to a web server or web authoring software to create their own non-Invision forums.

If they can create a NS nation, they should be able to create an Invision forum. Im not a super-IT-technical person, hell, I cant even program in BASIC. I CAN point and click a bunch of menus and fill out clearly labled fields to, for instance, create a forum.
Theres lots of alternatives to Invision, theres Proboards, for instance.

2. You might as well demand all storefronts, tech discussions, and such to different forums. Hey, why not split up I.I. into smaller and smaller forums, until there are 10 - 20 different I.I. sub-forums. That would make things a lot more complicated and crazy.
The storefronts, tech discussions and such are PART of NS Earth. The Sub-Earths can make their own forums and have their own storefronts and such.
Although perhaps a single subforum for Earth threads wouldnt go amiss.

Hey guys, don't be hatin' on AMW. The reason we have a seperate group is not for clique-y reasons; it's because we want to have a realistic world that accurately models an actual international situation. It helps a lot to have a definite landmass, population, and living, breathing world. You have to react to actual happenings, instead of randomly picking and choosing whatever threads you want.

But the thing is, AMW is NOT NS Earth, hence people NOT in AMW get their threads knocked out of place by the 900 AMW threads.
And since AMW is popular, AMW threads clog up the forum of people trying to RP on NSearth.
I have nothing against AMW aside from that, and I personaly think that they need to get their own forum. Or go to the NationStates forum :P

Nationstates is where you create, develop, model, and RP out your nation. If you want to create a nation based off alternate history, you can do it here no problem.

Indeed you can, alot of people have based their main nation on real life nations, using the same geography and cultural backgrounds without using any of the Earth threads... to be honest, there is nothing stopping people doing the whole Earth stuff but without limiting themselves from proper interaction with the rest of NS.

It's just a matter of assuming everything away from the Earth threads are just further away... realistic? Well lets face it, being really realistic is often long hard and dull as you have to look up alot of information and ulimately this is a game about fiction, convenient assumptions can be made.

But like I said before, if people want to limit their RP they can, so long as they don't do the whole "I'll get involved in this non-Earth thread, but when you try and get involved in this Earth thread you can't because we don't exist in your world" crap. Lets face it, either Earth is just another region of the NS world, or the nations involved in them can't interact with the rest of us, it's one way or the other.

Of course, "closed" threads are different, but then what happens publically in a closed thread, such as the invasion of a nation, can't just not happen as far as everyone else is concerned. They just can't post in that thread... but they can remember it and react in their own passive way.

But yeah... do what you want guys, just don't hide behind the whole Earth fad and pretend you are in another universe when you do something to get people on your tail in the NS universe. It's just not polite.

But the thing is, AMW is NOT NS Earth, hence people NOT in AMW get their threads knocked out of place by the 900 AMW threads.
And since AMW is popular, AMW threads clog up the forum of people trying to RP on NSearth.
I have nothing against AMW aside from that, and I personaly think that they need to get their own forum. Or go to the NationStates forum :P
No, Jolt works just fine for our needs. And we only "clog up" the forums when we're particuarly active.

No, Jolt works just fine for our needs. And we only "clog up" the forums when we're particuarly active.
Yes, it works fine for you, but not for all the people trying to RP on NS Earth.

Heck, there are more storefront threads in II than all the Earth threads combined.

I don't know why anbody even brought up the word storefront in here. While a storefront has to do directly with role playing on 'NS Earth' [as in the fictional NS planet, with ficitional nations], Earth threads don't. I rather stay out of the argument, but bringing in storefronts and how they take up forum room isn't valid at all.

Since storefronts aren't really an "international incident" and in almost all storefronts there is no RPing taking place.

Yeah, but the storefronts are open to everybody, they dont ignore people because they havent signed up.
The thing is, ANYBODY can go into a storefront and buy something, not nessicarily everything, but lots of things. Earths arent part of NS at all, and have to be signed up for and suchlike.
So, the point here is that anything NOT directly related to Earth 0 (The original II Earth) needs to go away to some other forum, whether its a new NS forum or another website.

Eh. Too bad for you BMG. We ain't leavin'. Hell, didn't you start your own earth? "Fantasy Earth"? Why does it bother you so much? It's just a click of a mouse to go to the next page.

Eh. Too bad for you BMG. We ain't leavin'. Hell, didn't you start your own earth? "Fantasy Earth"? Why does it bother you so much? It's just a click of a mouse to go to the next page.
Yes, I do have my own Earth. And its got its own forum on Invision. It doesnt have 10,000 threads on NS. That and it is somewhat differnt from Earths 2-500,000.
It would take roughly five minutes to create a new Invision forum, it wont cost you anything, and it will give you modereation powers and suchlike.
Its better for all parties concerned if you go to Invision or some other forum.
But you clearly wish to stay herem out of spite, lazyness or for some other reason.
Whatever, your choice.

Okay, I'll address a few things.



1. I'm not one of those Earth Series players who is adamant about "CLOSED RP!". The ones you are probably thinking of is Earth II by Layatreb and his "No outside Earth II RP'ing or you get kicked out" policy.

In fact, the Earth's I've been involved in... Earth III, Earth V, and Earth RB allow anyone to RP in those Earth's and still RP in NS Earth or any other Earth Series (except Earth II of course). There isn't anything restrictive about the Earth Series except Earth II. Anyone in these Earth's except Earth II can RP anywhere else, RP with anyone, and can RP any era. Basically, these Earths don't limit the player in other NS nation interactions.

I have been a strong advocate of multi-Earth'ing to allow for more RP possibilities, and more open community rather than a closed one like Earth II.



2. The Earth Series fills in a niche for us players who want to RP on an actual Earth, and RP out the creation, rise, and decline of empires. The Earth Series would act as a freeform RP version of Civilization I, II, and III. In Civilizatoion games, you are stuck with numbers and pre-set units, stats, cities, etc. In the Earth Series, you can play a "Civilization" type of game but you create your own units, nation, cities, culture, traditions, etc.

There are some of us who prefer to RP in an actual Earth setting and act out alternate histories, or see if they can RP a different MT world (Like Japan as a Superpower, and USA as a third world country). In NS Earth, you don't have that kind of history or alternate history "scenarios" to work with as in NS Earth, its all NS nations and little to no RL nations involved.



3. In NS Earth, you're stuck with thousands of NS nations, which can be a pretty mess to sort out with embassies, relations, trade, etc. It'd be hard to keep track of who's allied with whom, who is invading who, who has embassies in which nation, etc.

In Earth Series, it's much easier to keep track of who's relations with whoever, existing alliances, setting up trade, etc. Basically, Earth Series is a miniature version of NS Earth which is much easier to keep track of. There are some of us who can get overwhelmed by the sheer numbers in NS Earth, but can keep our sanity in the Earth Series.



4. Storefronts.

There are far more storefronts and spam in I.I. than the Earth Series "CLOSED!" RP's. So far, I've seen Earth II, AMW, and Earth 13.75 RP's going up, but not the others. The Earth V RP's is done in a single thread called "Earth V International Events and Incidents" (or something similiar, can't remember exact name of thread).

Thats 3 "Active" Earth Series on I.I. not counting Earth V as Earth V RP is done in one thread with maps and claims in another.

Now, lets see how many storefronts and spam on I.I. nowadays. Probably like 10 different active storefronts, with 10 new storefronts springing up every week (most go into obscurity). In storefronts, there's little to no RP involved, stuff like "I'll pay you $1 billion for 100 units of Equipment X. Money wired on confirmation".

Besides, its the storefronts that clog up I.I., not the Earth RP's. Which would be more valuable (if we had to choose between the two if Jolt ran out of memory or space) Earth Series with RP's in it or storefronts with no RP in them?

I choose Earth Series RP's. Because there are actual RP's, and they are actually something to read and "play" with.

As for storefronts, I think they're pretty much useless for practical application as people can easily reverse engineer the tech in the storefronts, or copy the storefront tech and claim they didn't steal it as it is standard RL tech.

What's more, some people don't care for the tech-wankiness of the stuff in storefronts like max range, max speed, max weight, etc. A missile is a missile, tank is a tank, plane is a plane, etc. no matter how tech-wanked they are. Who cares if they go at mach 1.1 or mach 1.2? Whats the big difference? A shell weighing in at 50 pounds or 55 pounds? Big deal. Woo-hoo.

Uber-units are probably going to start IGNORE-wars, or cause break-down in RP's.



===============================================

Let me ask you, is 4 Earths RP'ing mass-spam I.I. and fill it with 2 - 3 pages of threads? Then look at the sheer amount of tech discussions and storefronts. I thought so.

Lately, I've seen, what, 3 - 4 threads for Earth II, a handful of threads for AMW, and 3 - 5 threads for Earth 13.75. Thats probably 10 - 15 threads in total for the currently active Earth's.

Now, look at storefronts, tech discussions, ooc threads, etc. There's easily 20+ threads dedicated to these things which is more than the Earth Series combined (the active ones that is).

Like I said before, I'm not too assed about people not being allowed to interact outside their own Earth, so long as they don't... afterall, it's all very well limiting yourself to one Earth so long as you don't go posting in non-Earth threads after this fact is accepted.

However, when I see this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/Iuthia/Misc/EarthII.jpg) on page one of the International Incidents forum, I can't help but understand some of the complaints here. Granted that this incidence of the Earth phenomenon only happened because one member of that Earth answered to all his threads at once, but I can see why someone who regularly posts on this section of NS could get the impression they are being overrun.

But meh, at least the other Earths are more open. Though it's worth pointing out that in your 3rd point, Sharina, you say that you only have to keep up with the other nations in your Earth, even though the nations outside of Earth can intract with you. I suppose to some extent that is true, it's a matter of keeping up with your neighbour and not someone abroad. We could still have an embassy with you and you can still interact with us so it's impossible to just cut everything down as we're still outthere. However, I guess the thing people don't realise about trade, embassies and all that stuff is that it can just be assumed... when you actually need to see if you have an embassy with a nation you could ask them OOC "Would we have an embassy?" and work it out, if you need to have trade with someone for the perposes of a thread, the same applies "Would we realistically be trading anything?"

Nationstates doesn't have to be as complex as nations make it, it's just alot of us prefer it this way... I have about one hundred and ten nations listed for my embassies, with many more having constant relations. I like that because it's just nice to be able to look at everything like that at once, but I could understand someone saying they need to have assumed it was all worked out, so long as they ask me first (instead of just assuming its ok) I'll probably be ok with it.

*shrugs* anyways, the real point of this thread is the qaulity of International Incidents roleplay and the fact that people are running out of things to do, it's not actually about how many Earth threads there are because I imagine if people were actually busy they wouldn't care about them. So, the answer isn't really to bitch about Earth threads (I don't have a problem with them as such, I just don't like abuse and I like to make sure it's clear what I feel is abuse) but to actually get out there and RP something more interesting then more technology discussions, unit designs, storefronts and OOC complaint threads. If you can't find something, think of something you want to cover in your own nation... personally I've got about five different thread ideas in my own mind right now, though alot of the time I'm just too lazy to actually put them down to print and go with it. If push came to shove and I wasn't as busy as I'm meant to be, I would probably do something about it.

So yeah, just RP and leave the Earth people to themselves... if they want to limit themselves to their Earth then I would be tempted to ignore that account... afterall, they aren't in NS Earth so their posts aren't relevant. If they don't limit themselves then feel free to read their threads and join in, so long as they haven't closed them and if they have, well take note of what they do and then deal with it in a less direct way later. Me? I've got a wedding to finish, a technology to completely test, a colony on Mars to set up and several diplomatic 'discussions' to attend... I just like arguing this subject.

All good and valid points, Iuthia.

I don't limit myself to one Earth exclusively like these people who are RP'ing in Earth II. Actually, I was forced to leave Earth II because I declared that I would not give up claims in other Earth's, as I knew that if I did that, I'd be drastically reducing my RP opporunities.

If more people would adopt "multi-Earth'ing" or multi-universe RP'ing like I do, then we won't have any problem as people could easily alternate between NS Earth and the Earth Series. Problem solved.



As for me, the only way I envision myself RP'ing in NS Earth is if I go full post-MT and/or FT. I'd be using interdimensional travel devices that would allow me to travel from my home universe to NS Earth / universe. Basically, NS Earth never has and never will be my "orginal" home for my nation. Instead, NS Earth would be more like a colony or "outpost" for my nation.

My nation originates from my own parallel universe in which dinosaurs nearly became extinct, but 1% did survive, in the Americas. Then a human race evolves from these dinosaurs in the Americas, while the regular human race evolves from apes in Africa. Thus, there exists two human races in my home universe.

Then my nation forms in North America at roughly the same time Egypt, China, and Babylon civilization forms in Eurasia. History in Eurasia proceeds as usual, until 100+ AD, where my civilization arrives in Europe (instead of the other way around), fights off the Vikings, then European colonialism. Then histort takes a different direction... eventually ending up in a 3-nation dominated Earth in MT times... Sharina, China, and Romans (Roman Empire didn't collapse).

Then by 2000 - 2020, I discover interdimensional travel, allowing me access to NS Earth, Earth Series, etc. for RP's. It's a perfect plot tool to allow realistic ways to RP interaction with all these NS Earth and Earth Series nations.



In other words, with this kind of scenario, I can RP a good history, while being able to RP with anyone, while keeping my own universe to RP in should NS Earth RP'ing or Earth Series RP'ing end up in failure. You gotta admit, it works out nicely, doesn't it?

In other words, with this kind of scenario, I can RP a good history, while being able to RP with anyone, while keeping my own universe to RP in should NS Earth RP'ing or Earth Series RP'ing end up in failure. You gotta admit, it works out nicely, doesn't it?
However, the problem I can see is that potential abuse the fact you concider NS Earth to be another dimension/world... I suppose that in a Future Technology sense it could make sense if you actually had to use some Star Gate system or FTL in order to reach our earth... turning it more into some dimensional issues. But otherwise it is a physical barrier between your nation and other nations not part of the Earth Thread...

Personally I view the open Earth threads to be another region of my NS Earth, they take a little longer to get too with my ships and planes, but they are still on Earth and they are still reachable by modern technology means. My satellites are still passing over them technically (even if they are being ignored) and they actually exist. If they are in another dimension then there is a barrier between use which need some special equipment to get past. Seeing as your nation is used to this barrier, you have the equipment... what is there to say that you (not saying you would though) couldn't simply do something bad in NS Earth, but your nation is safe because it's not in physically on our Earth?

I don't mind people not being on Earth, they can reach us by using FTL technology to in the future... but in a modern system it wouldn't work. It would need to be done in such a way that an NS nation can reach you (and visa versa) by just going further then their regions limits. It may take longer to represent that they aren't in close to one another, but it needs to be possible.

The way you say colony suggests that your nation keeps land on our Earth, which suggests you either have numberous versions of your nation (in which case each version couldn't interact as they aren't on the same world) of that they can interact, but they are all part of the same nation and as such their resources are split over the different places they lay, for example, their population would be split depending on how important each colony is.

What I suggest is that the Earth thread which can interact with NS Earth are in fact regions like Haven, sure they are huge and have alot of space to themselves... but you can reach them through conventional means.

Realistically this breaks physics... but then again, NS Earth breaks physics by it's very existance. In order to interact with it, you have to be willing to convientially forget the fact NS Earth is probably larger then Jupiter.


Otherwise I can't see a problem with the way you see it... just that there is a potential problem is concidering it to be a seperate reality as it's possible to abuse it that way.

However, the problem I can see is that potential abuse the fact you concider NS Earth to be another dimension/world... I suppose that in a Future Technology sense it could make sense if you actually had to use some Star Gate system or FTL in order to reach our earth... turning it more into some dimensional issues. But otherwise it is a physical barrier between your nation and other nations not part of the Earth Thread...

I was going for this angle, because of several reasons.

1. I can keep my nation intact for any number of "fan-fiction" RP's without interference from n00bs and such.

In other words, I can keep my nation's development intact, and RP my own universe where I have full control over RP and what is going to happen. Suppose I decide to RP my nation growing and developing into FT, then ecounter the Star Wars Empire civilization. I wouldn't want the Galactic Empire alliance, Unified Sith, etc. to come in and fubar stuff up.

Another example... I can RP the politics of a 3-nation Earth, like in a Civilization game. My homeworld is dominated by me, Romans, and Chinese. That would make for some good "alternate universe" RP instead of the usual "USA power! RAWRRR!" or conventional nations.

2. I have 100% control of my home RP universe.

This means I can prevent dog-piles, n00bishness, and the like. If dog-piling or n00bishness happens, I can simply remove the offending player from my universe. This would keep my universe clean and less irritating.

3. Able to stay in NS no matter what.

If I do get wiped out from NS Earth via a coalition of n00bs, warmongers, or dog-pilers like what Feline Catfish and Call To Power faced, I can still have somewhere in NS to RP from / with. I won't have to delete my nation and restart all over again.

For my RP's with NS nations, I'll use my nation's stats (like my current NS population, budgets, GDP, etc.) as a "colony" in any given NS universe (NS Earth, Earth V, Earth RB, etc.) where the NS nations are, whike keeping my mother-nation in my home universe for my fan-fiction RP projects as will be explained later in this post.

I can still exist in NS, while being able to still interact with other nations either via interdimensional travel or some alien civilizations to ecounter when my nation goes FT.


4. I am not a god-modder, and whenever I might appear to be, I'm perfectly willing to work it out.

Hence, there is no need to worry about me uber-izing myself in my home universe. I've always planned on growing in my home universe in increments, and in a believable manner.

I'm aiming to do a history-like progression of my nation from Stone Age to FT Age, just like these empire-building games (Civilization, Sim City, Master of Orion, Railroad Tycoon, etc.). The only difference between these games and what I'm doing is that I'll be able to free-form it. I won't be limited to any computer game rules, graphics, names (like city, empire, or leader names), and I'd be able to do things that isn't possible in these games due to game mechanics.

which suggests you either have numberous versions of your nation (in which case each version couldn't interact as they aren't on the same world) of that they can interact, but they are all part of the same nation and as such their resources are split over the different places they lay, for example, their population would be split depending on how important each colony is.

What I suggest is that the Earth thread which can interact with NS Earth are in fact regions like Haven, sure they are huge and have alot of space to themselves... but you can reach them through conventional means.

Realistically this breaks physics... but then again, NS Earth breaks physics by it's very existance. In order to interact with it, you have to be willing to convientially forget the fact NS Earth is probably larger then Jupiter.


Otherwise I can't see a problem with the way you see it... just that there is a potential problem is concidering it to be a seperate reality as it's possible to abuse it that way.

I'm aiming to be a nation that has discovered interdimensional travel, which would be the perfect plot / RP tool for me to access all those different Earth's, NS Earth, and other non-NS universes.

What I mean by non-NS universes is for fan-fiction RP, like my nation fighting a war aganist Starfleet or Star Trek universes, Babylon 5 universe with their races and characters, any other sci-fi series or such (Andromeda, Star Wars, Stargate, etc.) I could even do some RP in magical universes or even video game universes like Zelda games (ecounter Hyrule), Lord Of The Rings, Mario Brothers, Final Fantasy planets, etc.

This would let me engage in countless RP possibilities which would let me keep interest in NS for a long time. At the same time, I'll be able to RP with any interesting nation / player in NS on either NS Earth or the Earth Series.



By the way, here's the interdimensional travel thing I had in mind... Its based off the SLIDERS TV show, which is a hell of a great one, especially with all these "what if" Earth's.

http://www.brillig.com/sliders/introduction.html

http://www.scifi.com/sliders/

If NS Earth is okay with the "suspension of disbelief" thing, then I might as well adopt the SLIDERS thing as a MT / Post-MT way for me to access different universes. Fair's fair, wouldn't ya say?

Being an old frequent of the International Incidences forums, I sometimes find myself coming in and having a good read on whats happening from time to time (although most of the time I think I stick to my own stuff). But one problem regarding these forums if you like, is the fact that there now exists a system of multiple earths. Understandibly so also, since there is an obvious need to sort out whom owns what. People here tend to be more earth territory crazy more than anything - a big fad anyone has to recognise. Problems about this though, is the fact that if someone claims to have Germany, this leaves about two hundred others who do the same thing. And so also understandibly, the people who were left out a bit went along and created their own version of earth - starting the earth craze as I like to call it. And now the forums (or roleplays therein) are suffering the results.

What you have now is a fractured world, whereby a roleplay is seperated into either Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth 5 Billion and whatnot. And isnt it a real kick in the nuts when you find someone interesting, but cant interact simply because you cant recognise them on the basis of location? I know its simply harder for newbs to get involved, because anything they want to post in is OMG CLOSED, or EARTH V ONLY. On behalf of myself I can tell you at least, that sometimes I actually want to post a thing or two here but simply dont have a place to. My name doesnt mean as much as it used to (since I now frequent Nationstates more than anything), so I cant exactly post my own thread. And I cant post in something already existing because the decent RPs are all of the above problem. Alas, I stick to what I am in now.

Anyhow, I sort of figured that this is a relevant topic for discussion if anyone is open to it, there would be a few with a similar outlook on the topic of agenda. I mean, maybe something new is in order? Before we had multiple earths, everyone in general recognised his or her own version. What I mean is that I had my set roleplaying circle (believe it or not there are many different circles who just dont come into contact at all), and I had my set recognised neighbours. I gave them these privilages because I knew them at the time, and if someone was to claim the same land then I would either ignore the fact (not specifically just pretend they are elsewhere when RPing with them), or I would not participate in the RP itself. All of the time, it depended on quality and how interested I was in the storyline rather than who owned what. I had my own idea on the general outline of the world, and those who didnt fit in the picture I didnt force out of it. I allowed them to remain as 'unknown'. Like Credonia whom I had no idea what kind of land he had, so I recognised him only as 'Credonia'. Dr_Twist I recognised his claims, except for one which actually placed him almost inside my own borders. I simply pretended he was ON my border, rather than within it as he would have claimed.

What Im really saying is more of a question. What is the importance of having particular land claims anyway, can one not have his or her OWN picture of the world around him? This is what I think what should be anyhow, each individual operating his or her own map as he likes to recognise it. Not some random dictating who owns what toward you. Discuss this, since I am interested in each of your own opinion on the topic.



Ah, fizzshnozzle (random insult I just thought of). The Earth II only is war threads for people who have signed up for Earth II. If you want to sign up, you go to the Revitalization page and talk about it there. And each playing with their OWN picture of the world is about the worst, !@#$%^& idea I've ever heard on this forum. Because then you get issues like these examples.

Dipshit: I invade your territory by amphibious means

Dupshit: In my view of the world, I'm landlocked

Dipshit: Then my soldiers march into your territory overland

Dupshit: But in my view of the world, your not adjacent to me, and I'm surrounded by mountains

Dipshit: Then I drop paratroopers

Dupshit: But I have a super uber air defence system that will own your planes.

Dipshit: But you never posted you had that!

Dupshit: Yes I did, right in the midddle of the "World Defences Thread"

Dipshit: But that thread is 2 million posts long...

And there you have it.

I was going for this angle, because of several reasons.

1. I can keep my nation intact for any number of "fan-fiction" RP's without interference from n00bs and such.

In other words, I can keep my nation's development intact, and RP my own universe where I have full control over RP and what is going to happen. Suppose I decide to RP my nation growing and developing into FT, then ecounter the Star Wars Empire civilization. I wouldn't want the Galactic Empire alliance, Unified Sith, etc. to come in and fubar stuff up.

Another example... I can RP the politics of a 3-nation Earth, like in a Civilization game. My homeworld is dominated by me, Romans, and Chinese. That would make for some good "alternate universe" RP instead of the usual "USA power! RAWRRR!" or conventional nations.

2. I have 100% control of my home RP universe.

This means I can prevent dog-piles, n00bishness, and the like. If dog-piling or n00bishness happens, I can simply remove the offending player from my universe. This would keep my universe clean and less irritating.

3. Able to stay in NS no matter what.

If I do get wiped out from NS Earth via a coalition of n00bs, warmongers, or dog-pilers like what Feline Catfish and Call To Power faced, I can still have somewhere in NS to RP from / with. I won't have to delete my nation and restart all over again.

For my RP's with NS nations, I'll use my nation's stats (like my current NS population, budgets, GDP, etc.) as a "colony" in any given NS universe (NS Earth, Earth V, Earth RB, etc.) where the NS nations are, whike keeping my mother-nation in my home universe for my fan-fiction RP projects as will be explained later in this post.

I can still exist in NS, while being able to still interact with other nations either via interdimensional travel or some alien civilizations to ecounter when my nation goes FT.


4. I am not a god-modder, and whenever I might appear to be, I'm perfectly willing to work it out.

Hence, there is no need to worry about me uber-izing myself in my home universe. I've always planned on growing in my home universe in increments, and in a believable manner.

I'm aiming to do a history-like progression of my nation from Stone Age to FT Age, just like these empire-building games (Civilization, Sim City, Master of Orion, Railroad Tycoon, etc.). The only difference between these games and what I'm doing is that I'll be able to free-form it. I won't be limited to any computer game rules, graphics, names (like city, empire, or leader names), and I'd be able to do things that isn't possible in these games due to game mechanics.



I'm aiming to be a nation that has discovered interdimensional travel, which would be the perfect plot / RP tool for me to access all those different Earth's, NS Earth, and other non-NS universes.

What I mean by non-NS universes is for fan-fiction RP, like my nation fighting a war aganist Starfleet or Star Trek universes, Babylon 5 universe with their races and characters, any other sci-fi series or such (Andromeda, Star Wars, Stargate, etc.) I could even do some RP in magical universes or even video game universes like Zelda games (ecounter Hyrule), Lord Of The Rings, Mario Brothers, Final Fantasy planets, etc.

This would let me engage in countless RP possibilities which would let me keep interest in NS for a long time. At the same time, I'll be able to RP with any interesting nation / player in NS on either NS Earth or the Earth Series.



By the way, here's the interdimensional travel thing I had in mind... Its based off the SLIDERS TV show, which is a hell of a great one, especially with all these "what if" Earth's.

http://www.brillig.com/sliders/introduction.html

http://www.scifi.com/sliders/

If NS Earth is okay with the "suspension of disbelief" thing, then I might as well adopt the SLIDERS thing as a MT / Post-MT way for me to access different universes. Fair's fair, wouldn't ya say?



The reason everyone things interdimensional travel is godmoding is exactly because we want an "Earth II" that is isolated from the 100,000 other countries on nationstates so we can play a fun game. And also, having a "home galaxy" is godmoding. That means there is no point in RP'ing with you because you never die because you rool your home galaxy and will just boot out anyone or anything that seriously can kill you.

I was going for this angle, because of several reasons.

1. I can keep my nation intact for any number of "fan-fiction" RP's without interference from n00bs and such.

2. I have 100% control of my home RP universe.

This means I can prevent dog-piles, n00bishness, and the like. If dog-piling or n00bishness happens, I can simply remove the offending player from my universe. This would keep my universe clean and less irritating.

3. Able to stay in NS no matter what.

If I do get wiped out from NS Earth via a coalition of n00bs, warmongers, or dog-pilers like what Feline Catfish and Call To Power faced, I can still have somewhere in NS to RP from / with. I won't have to delete my nation and restart all over again.

4. I am not a god-modder, and whenever I might appear to be, I'm perfectly willing to work it out. I can see where you are coming from, but alot of this can be solved by choosing your battles and ignoring the terrible roleplayers or simply those who don't fit in your idea of NS. For example, Star Wars and Star Trek fictions are often ignored because people aren't really keen on the idea of dealing with them... hell, even I feel a bit odd about it, so they use their right of freeform RP and conviently don't get involved with them.

Dog piles? Oddly enough I've never had a problem with it myself and many people avoid it everyday; they happen as a result of controversy and hype, careful management can easily avoid them... n00bishness is dealt with via the normal methods of attempting to work it out, followed by ignore if they aren't willing to be reasonable about it.

Being wiped out shouldn't happen if the roleplayer trying to do it IC acknowledges that OOC you shouldn't damage other peoples roleplaying experience by trying to wipe them out completely... firstly because war is rarely about wiping out the opponent, but more about making them yield. Nations like Automagfreek who make it part of their way of doing things IC should realistically leave a way out... limiting the actual destruction more to just seriously damaging the nation but not actually taking everything out. Eitherway, a player doesn't have to accept it because this is Freeform.

But nevermind, I shouldn't question your way of RPing, everyone has their view. I'm just see things a little differently.

This would let me engage in countless RP possibilities which would let me keep interest in NS for a long time. At the same time, I'll be able to RP with any interesting nation / player in NS on either NS Earth or the Earth Series.This said, many nations may ignore you simply because you would be a future technology nation with interdimensional travel capabilities... I don't know if I would, but it certainly means you are ahead of more International Incident nations in time.

It works, but it does leave you out of alot of nations roleplaying sphere of influence... modern technology nations would generally have to ignore such an FT nation because of their own views on time and technology.

But like I said, we all deal with it in our own way.

If NS Earth is okay with the "suspension of disbelief" thing, then I might as well adopt the SLIDERS thing as a MT / Post-MT way for me to access different universes. Fair's fair, wouldn't ya say?Again, with the way people view SLIDERS technology, it would work as a one off thread, but not as a way to RP constant interaction with other Modern Technology nations as the technology doesn't exist to them. Each player deals with it in a different way, but the majority tend to deal with such things in a strict sense of what exists in their time line.

I've given my view and I'm sure you understand it by now so I'll leave you to it, it's not my job to tell you how to do it but I will give my opinion in such a thread as this... it's up to others to ignore parts of it or all of it as they see fit, in the end, what you get out of NS is your choice.

Kreynoria']The reason everyone things interdimensional travel is godmoding is exactly because we want an "Earth II" that is isolated from the 100,000 other countries on nationstates so we can play a fun game. And also, having a "home galaxy" is godmoding. That means there is no point in RP'ing with you because you never die because you rool your home galaxy and will just boot out anyone or anything that seriously can kill you.

I never said that I'd have full interaction between my home universe and my "colonies" in NS Earth or the Earth Series.

I can RP it to be pretty limited, such as sending maybe 1000 people between the "known" alternate universes every month (diplomats, my leaders, explorers, etc.). I can also send in small "explorer" teams of 1 - 5 people each to map out all the other parallel universes not part of mainstream NS.

I also can RP constant communication between all my "colonies" thus letting my home nation know about every NS nation, and then allow for diplomacy and alliances with that same nation in NS Earth and Earth Series. For example, I'm allies with Mauiwowee in Earth V, but using this method, I can become allies with Mauiwowee in NS Earth.



For all intents and purposes, my NS Earth "colony" as well as any Earth Series "colony" will use my NS stats, budget, population, etc. This is *not* god-modding, because I'd be playing by the same stat rules as everyone else.

However, I want to keep my home universe free of NS nations for the time being, because I want to engage in fan-fiction RP in it. For example, I might want to RP fighting an alien invasion, ecounter an Elf civilization, discover the Star Wars galaxy, etc. in my home universe without interference from NS nations.

That universe would be the basis of all my fan-fiction, like the fan-fictions written at Spacebattles.com, ASVS, Stardestroyer.net, etc.


Once again, I am not going to wank or god-mod transporting military, troops, or stuff between universes. I'm limiting my Sliders Tech to very small amounts of people per month.

For all intents and purposes, I am MT / Post-MT with all MT / Post-MT stuff like economy, military, tech, infrastucture, etc. The most advanced tech I have would be hydrogen fuel cells, pebblehead nuclear reactors, railguns, and pretty much 2020 - 2030 tech levels.

The Sliders tech is my only exception to this, and I think it's pretty ridiclious to put me in the FT crowd based on one technology. I'm not an interstellar civilization, I have no FTL drives, no nanite bullshit, no "OMG! Lasers of d()()m!" etc.

The Sliders tech is my only exception to this, and I think it's pretty ridiclious to put me in the FT crowd based on one technology. I'm not an interstellar civilization, I have no FTL drives, no nanite bullshit, no "OMG! Lasers of d()()m!" etc.Not really, it's down to individual RPers to deal with whatever you claim to be as they see fit. Seeing as there are alot of nations in International Incidents who love realism, the idea of a modern technology nation with one future technology invention is still one too many.

Others such as myself look at the possibilities for abuse. Personally, with Iuthia being either Modern Technology, Post Modern Technology or even Future Technology depending on how much I get involved in what, I am not about to ignore you because of one potentially abusive technology, I'll ignore you if I see the technology abused, but otherwise I couldn't really care less.

My point is that people tend to view things in their own way.

Hmmm, some points:

1) I dont mind there being lots of earths, or even being labelled [Earth X] so long as they are part of the rest of II, and anyone can RP on them regardless of whether they choose to put their main nations there.

2) Earth II and the like arent NationStates, and should stay on InvisionFree forums.

3) Storefronts are fine, so long as they actually contain original tech and not just "OMG!!! M1 ABRAMS!!!1! No one has ever hrd of dat!!1!!".

4) [NS]Kreynoria, I should point out that of the 100,000 nations, only about 40,000 are actual individua people, and of them only about 200 ever RP, maybe 50 on a regular basis on II, if that. There are actually worryingly few people on II these days whoa re truely active. Also, what's with the "[NS]"? I've seen this a lot... surely people know you play NS or you wouldnt have access to this site :/. Truely baffling.

5) Dogpiles only really happen to people who piss of a lot of people (Feline Catfish) are viewed as n00bs (Hataria, Seph) or mistakenly get themselves involved in a NATO / RWC n00bfest the days of which have thankfully passed. If you want a good RP and are really worried about dogpiles then wait for some people to join and then close the RP.

Dont take it offensively, but a lot of the stuff I seem to hear you saying is based on the "trendy" view of what happens on II, and not an actual view. I challenge you to link me to 1 thread that contains a dogpile made in the past few days. I challenge you to link me to a thread where a load of random n00bs come and destroy it without anyone thinking to, you know, ignore them maybe? I challenge you to link me to one war thread that is like WWI with massive populations... I could go on...

And yes, of course this is true:

What's more, some people don't care for the tech-wankiness of the stuff in storefronts like max range, max speed, max weight, etc. A missile is a missile, tank is a tank, plane is a plane, etc. no matter how tech-wanked they are. Who cares if they go at mach 1.1 or mach 1.2? Whats the big difference? A shell weighing in at 50 pounds or 55 pounds? Big deal. Woo-hoo.

That's why the 3rd largest tank force in the world was destroyed by a Western tank force in 100 hours to no losses from enemy fire. Precisely because all tech is so *obviously* the same, and never affects war or the balance of power *at all*.

Hmmm, some points:

1) I dont mind there being lots of earths, or even being labelled [Earth X] so long as they are part of the rest of II, and anyone can RP on them regardless of whether they choose to put their main nations there.

Agreed.

2) Earth II and the like arent NationStates, and should stay on InvisionFree forums.

For those "exclusive" Earth's like Earth II that DO NOT allow any multi-Earth'ing RP or interaction whatsoever, I agree that those kinds of Earth's need their own forums.

However, for those Earth's like Earth III, Earth V, Earth RB, etc. that actually allows and encourages multi-Earth'ing and does not force / limit RP'ing to an exclusive community, I say let these Earths keep their RP's here in I.I. and NS in general.

3) Storefronts are fine, so long as they actually contain original tech and not just "OMG!!! M1 ABRAMS!!!1! No one has ever hrd of dat!!1!!".

I'm willing to go with that.

However, the fact of the matter is that we can't get rid of storefronts. The exact same can be said for the Earth Series. You can't expect them to disappear or be erased.

In other words, Earth Series is here to stay, just like storefronts are.

4) [NS]Kreynoria, I should point out that of the 100,000 nations, only about 40,000 are actual individua people, and of them only about 200 ever RP, maybe 50 on a regular basis on II, if that. There are actually worryingly few people on II these days whoa re truely active. Also, what's with the "[NS]"? I've seen this a lot... surely people know you play NS or you wouldnt have access to this site :/. Truely baffling.

Don't forget some RP'ers use puppet nations to RP as well.

Take Guffingford for example. He RP's as Holy Panooly and Sirens of Titan, in addition to his main Guffingford nation. Thats 3 nations for 1 player.

5) Dogpiles only really happen to people who piss of a lot of people (Feline Catfish) are viewed as n00bs (Hataria, Seph) or mistakenly get themselves involved in a NATO / RWC n00bfest the days of which have thankfully passed. If you want a good RP and are really worried about dogpiles then wait for some people to join and then close the RP.

Dont take it offensively, but a lot of the stuff I seem to hear you saying is based on the "trendy" view of what happens on II, and not an actual view. I challenge you to link me to 1 thread that contains a dogpile made in the past few days. I challenge you to link me to a thread where a load of random n00bs come and destroy it without anyone thinking to, you know, ignore them maybe? I challenge you to link me to one war thread that is like WWI with massive populations... I could go on...

Yes, I am aware that there hasn't been active dog-piling lately, but it is bound to happen again sooner or later. It's inevitable.

However, I have noticed a thread with many new nations which is beginning to look like a dogpile (mainly on the defender's side, I admit). It's a brewing war between Mondoth and some Siberia-like alliance, I lost the thread link though.

When new threads come up with either dog-piling or uber-wanking, I can post them up here.


And yes, of course this is true:

That's why the 3rd largest tank force in the world was destroyed by a Western tank force in 100 hours to no losses from enemy fire. Precisely because all tech is so *obviously* the same, and never affects war or the balance of power *at all*.

In this scenario, the USA used tactics... air-power aganist tanks, not full blown tank / ground war like during WW II.

Suppose the USA and Iraq went to full tank warfare, *WITHOUT* any air support or bombing missions on either side, then it wouldn't be over in 100 hours. It would take much longer.



That aside, I think all the tech-wanking is completely pointless. What difference does an aircraft going at mach 1.2 compared to one that goes at mach 1.5? Planes are planes in that case. They fly, they fight, and they die. That simple.

What difference is there for missiles with 80 pound warheads, while others have 100 pound warheads? They either hit their targets, or they miss. If they do hit, they do damage. If they miss, no damage. Repeat process until one side is defeated or runs out of missiles. Again, that simple. No tech-wank needed.

Ditto for tanks. A tank weighing in at 70 tons, goes at 30 MPH, and has a 120mm cannon. Another tank weighs in at 65 tons, goes at 35 MPH, and has a 115mm cannon. What's the difference? They're practically the same for RP purposes. They attack each other, they either take damage or they don't. Rinse and repeat. That's all there is to it in RP.

Tech-wanking isn't in the best interest of good RP, because all the detailed terminology and techno-babble is excessive. If I get involved in warfare, and the other player uses techno-babble like Layatreb or Doomingsland does, I'll simply roll my eyes and shrug my shoulders. I'll then just type in 50 / 50 losses or something, disregarding all the tech-wank crap.

Hence, the reason why I think most storefronts are pointless, as all those storefront MBT's, planes, and ships would practically be similiar to each other in terms of RP and NS tech. In those cases, it'd be like driving a 2005 Lincoln car or Nissan car, different brands but essentially the same thing, a car.

Tech-wanking isn't in the best interest of good RP, because all the detailed terminology and techno-babble is excessive. If I get involved in warfare, and the other player uses techno-babble like Layatreb or Doomingsland does, I'll simply roll my eyes and shrug my shoulders. I'll then just type in 50 / 50 losses or something, disregarding all the tech-wank crap.
Things aren't as simple as you describe. As NS warfare gets more and more complex in the past two years (back then in June '03 I don't recall much 'realism' into play), so does technology. Consequently, it also persuades weapons designers to go more into the specifics about their weapons system. however, if you choose to RP with someone that goes into greater depths about their technology, then it is your responsibility to accept that. Don't like how many goes into great depth about their technology and equipment? Don't RP with them. It's that simple. Going into great depths about your equipment isn't this so-called "tech-wanking" as you label it; it is just how many incorporates technology into NS warfare, provided that it isn't to the point where the player wouldn't accept any losses.

In fact, it is not much more than an exaggeration (although flawed in logic), and to a limited extent, an insult for those who do choose to be more specific about the things they have and dedicate more of their time to it, and consequently improving the realism and the experience of the RP. The thing is, while the numerical differences may be small, it wouldn't be too much fun to roleplay with generic weapons and the plain-and-standard-among-everyone equipment and tactics, now. would it? Labeling it as "tech-wank" is great exaggeration when one simply chooses to be more specific and in depth about their work; however, it is "tech-wank" when one chooses to RP their technology as if they are invincible and much more "superior" than others just because of some small features that they have.

Heck, if you think people should just play with generic weapons, then why shouldn't we all RP as if we all have a communist dictatorship as a government? But then, what's the fun in all of that anyways? The same thing goes for technology and equipment. If you choose not to go too much in depth about your own equipment, then many could care less; however, if you label the efforts that many put into their works as "pointless" and dismiss it as a "waste of time", then it is nothing more than an great and seriously flawed exaggeration. True, numbers alone is dull and would spawn little interest; however, you are forgetting about the creativity element that many puts into their weapon systems and equipment beyond the basic stats. It is the work that goes into a system that makes it interesting; however, it would be nothing but utterly flawed if you dismiss that, solely based upon the assumption that numbers by themselves are dull, meaningless, and not interesting.

-From a NS aircraft/munitions designer and a fellow II player for two-years-and-seven-days.

Things aren't as simple as you describe. As NS warfare gets more and more complex in the past two years (back then in June '03 I don't recall much 'realism' into play), so does technology. Consequently, it also persuades weapons designers to go more into the specifics about their weapons system. however, if you choose to RP with someone that goes into greater depths about their technology, then it is your responsibility to accept that. Don't like how many goes into great depth about their technology and equipment? Don't RP with them. It's that simple. Going into great depths about your equipment isn't this so-called "tech-wanking" as you label it; it is just how many incorporates technology into NS warfare, provided that it isn't to the point where the player wouldn't accept any losses.

In fact, it is not much more than an insult for those who do choose to be more specific about the things they have and dedicate more of their time to it, and consequently improving the realism and the experience of the RP. The thing is, while the numerical differences may be small, it wouldn't be too much fun to roleplay with generic weapons and the plain-and-standard-among-everyone equipment and tactics, now. would it? Labeling it as "tech-wank" is great exaggeration when one simply chooses to be more specific and in depth about their work; however, it is "tech-wank" when one chooses to RP their technology as if they are invincible and much more "superior" than others just because of some small features that they have.

Three issues with this.


1. Some of us aren't geniuses, gun fanatics, mechanical engineers, etc.

That means that some of us won't even understand or know how or why a 30 inch long gun barrel is better than a 28 inch gun barrel. Or why a 20 inch naval gun is better than a 30 inch one.

To those of us who aren't the "tech-savvy" college graduates, tech-wank ruins RP's because we'd be forced to read all those intense descriptions, and not understand any of it except the basics. We do know the basics about guns, like "guns kill" and "standard ammo is better". Ditto for tanks, we know that tanks aren't fast and they are designed to suppress infantry. Those kinds of basics can be easy to understand and follow, rather than very detailed info about each and every last gun, tank, plane, or ship in a player's military.



2. Tech-wank can overly complicate RP's and leads to accusations of god-modding and IGNORES.

For example...

---------------------------------------------

RP #1:

The F-25 fighter roared off the deck of the Harbinger class aircraft carrier, armed with 4 X-10 anti-air missiles and 2 X-20 air-to-ground missiles. The fighter streaked through the sky at mach 1.2, employing thrust vectoring while its Hana-1000 turbofan engine strained under 50,000 horsepower worth of thrust. Shortly thereafter, the F-25 discovered the enemy planes via RADAR and sensor triangulation from the AWACS planes and satellite feeds. The F-25 promptly fired its payloads directly at the incoming enemy planes. The missiles screamed towards the enemy plane at mach 4, activaing its internal infrared sensors and then immediately split into MIRV mode. The four missiles split into five smaller versions of themselves, for a total of 20 micro-missiles. The micro-missiles continued their course, using computer GPS correction to ensure accuracy.

OOC: Now post losses to my beautiful tech! RAWRRR!

RP #2:

The F-25 fighter roared off the deck of the Harbinger class aircraft carrier, after an alert was given of incoming hostile aircraft. The F-25 fighter quickly reached cruising speed, and shortly thereafter, it ecountered the incoming enemy planes. The F-25 acquired firing solutions from its onboard computers, and the pilot smiled as he depressed the firing button. Suddenly, several missiles shot out from under the wings of the metallic predator, eagerly seeking its prey among the enemy ranks.

---------------------------------------------

See what I mean?

RP #1 is what I mean by tech-wank and brain-numbing detail.

RP #2 is what RP's should be like. That RP example preserves the uniqueness of the nation, like the F-25 class of plane and Harbinger class of aircraft carrier while eliminating 95% - 100% of the tech-wank in RP #1. In this RP example, it is still fun to read and write, without the tech-wank.

That aside, if someone tech-wanks like in RP #1 example, then the other player doesn't post what the tech-wanker considers reasonable losses (like a 30 - 70 loss in the tech-wanker's favor) then the tech-wanker will claim god-mod, cheating, or slap an IGNORE. All that because the "enemy" player doesn't tech-wank or refuses to submit to "OMG! My tech is better than yours!" mentality.

Pretty damn stupid, foolish, and bullshit if you ask me.



3. What if a player decides to invade me, and that player is a tech-wanker like Layatreb, Tyrandis, or Doomingsland?

I should have full right to "cut-out" all that tech-wank and just post my response and any losses suffered. I'd be the defender, and it is usually customary in NS etiquette for the defender to determine the rules and boundaries of any invasion RP. Meaning, if the defender does not want tech-wank or uber-tech, then those tech's are out of the RP. If the defender declares that he / she is a MT nation and the invader is FT nation, the defender has the right to demand the FT invader to revert to MT.

And so on.

1. Some of us aren't geniuses, gun fanatics, mechanical engineers, etc.

That means that some of us won't even understand or know how or why a 30 inch long gun barrel is better than a 28 inch gun barrel. Or why a 20 inch naval gun is better than a 30 inch one.

To those of us who aren't the "tech-savvy" college graduates, tech-wank ruins RP's because we'd be forced to read all those intense descriptions, and not understand any of it except the basics.
That's why people learn as they get through more and more of the RPs in NS. if one is able to sign up for NS and proceeding to roleplay, then it is completely sensible to say that they'll able to dedicate some of their time to get accustomed to the technologies used in NS and how they are used. Just because that you are not as well informed in some topics and others - and this is in no way wrong by itself - doesn't mean that you should outright reject other's efforts and dedications into the smaller details by implying that they are "worthless". That's exactly what you did in the previous post.

2. Tech-wank can overly complicate RP's and leads to accusations of god-modding and IGNORES.

See what I mean?

RP #1 is what I mean by tech-wank and brain-numbing detail.
Aside from the OOC comment, and aside from the technical deficiences and flaws presented in the passage, I see nothing much wrong, since the player has after all explained how the technology/equipment works against a certain threat. Nothing is invincible; yet, it would be a great exaggeration to say that they are tech-wank just because they appear to be very hard to defeat at a fist look. In this case, it requires some thinking to come up with strategies and tactics to overcome the advantage provided by the piece of technology present in the equipment.

RP #2 is what RP's should be like. That RP example preserves the uniqueness of the nation, like the F-25 class of plane and Harbinger class of aircraft carrier while eliminating 95% - 100% of the tech-wank in RP #1. In this RP example, it is still fun to read and write, without the tech-wank.
While RP2 is a fine example, let me rephrase this: getting into detail about a technology or equipment does not equal to "tech-wank". Thus, Specifics and details =/= "tech-wank", provided if the player does not use it to complicate the game experience (i.e. by implying that it is "invincible" or very hard to defeat by any and all possible means, or/and by roleplaying with a technology/feature(s) of equipment that is hard to achieve and use in practice without serious deficiencies, while not RPing its disadvantages). You are ignoring the difference between these two concepts. While acting as the tech is somewhat invincible and going into too deep of a depth is tech-wanking, getting a bit more specific about your technology is a different matter. In fact, it is more productive, since you'll actually have a clear idea of what the feature on the equipment is designed to accomplish.

Pretty damn stupid, foolish, and bullshit if you ask me.
Oh please. So a nation RPing his government in great details is also "dumb, amaeturish, and crappy?" Despite the difference in appearance, it's still the same in concept. It is not their problem if you somehow refuse to accept the fact that many does choose to go into deeper depths.

3. What if a player decides to invade me, and that player is a tech-wanker like Layatreb, Tyrandis, or Doomingsland?
Hmm... Since you have outlined and distinguished the three individual players by some special means, allegedly labelled as "tech-wankers", care to provide some examples? I fail to see why going into a deeper depth about one's equipment and technology is this so-called "tank-wanking" as your greatly inflated (and flawed) assumption implies. So by your standards, putting some effort into one's products and technologies is just a waste of time? Tell that to the many RPers in II who does RP greatly while putting a lot of efforts into their products to make it better and enhancing one's RP experience. At the same time, observing others' progress doesn't by any means mean that you can't learn from it, and consequently get more accustomed to it.

At least, through over a year of designing products and going into great depths about them, I certainly don't feel that I'm wasting any time here. Instead, as an RPer, it should also be your responsibility to get more accustomed to it and adjust accordingly. In fact, you will actually find yourself contradicted by many of the well-known designers here, who incidentally, also RPs very well. While saying that going into too great of a depth will complicate the experience isn't wrong, the act of completely discrediting it as "worthless" without taking the creativity factor in, is nothing but a fundamentally flawed, holes-ridden, and baseless exaggeration.

In fact, in many cases, the importance of the use of tactics and technology/equipment in a realistically-roleplayed war is just as important as the storytelling aspect. Now, I'm not trying to distinguish either one as the "more important" and indeed storytelling is very important in any RP, but it is still nevertheless flawed to think that technology, tactics, and strategy has a very little role in a roleplayed war.

That's why people learn as they get through more and more of the RPs in NS. if one is able to sign up for NS and proceeding to roleplay, then it is completely sensible to say that they'll able to dedicate some of their time to get accustomed to the technologies used in NS and how they are used. Just because that you are not as well informed in some topics and others - and this is in no way wrong by itself - doesn't mean that you should outright reject other's efforts and dedications into the smaller details by implying that they are "worthless". That's exactly what you did in the previous post.

I do admit that I'm not a genius at tech or understanding NS tech. I've been here for almost a year, and I still have trouble trying to understand and sort through RP's that use lots of tech terminology and techno-babble.

The only part that I'd be rejecting of the other players would be techno-babble that I wouldn't understand or even comphrend. In addition, I wouldn't say "worthless", but these players should not expect me or other non-tech-savvy players to understand and fully RP responses to their techno-babble.

I'm also tired of nations and players automatically thinking "Better Tech = Automatic Win". After all, a bow+arrow, or even spike pits can be just as effective as a FT laser rifle or a MT infantry rifle.

Aside from the OOC comment, and aside from the technical deficiences and flaws presented in the passage, I see nothing much wrong, since the player has after all explained how the technology/equipment works against a certain threat. Nothing is invincible; yet, it would be a great exaggeration to say that they are tech-wank just because they appear to be very hard to defeat at a fist look. In this case, it requires some thinking to come up with strategies and tactics to overcome the advantage provided by the piece of technology present in the equipment.

You will have to pardon the technical deficinies and flaws, as I know almost nothing of these techno-babble and terminology. You can clearly see that I can't RP with people who RP like in that Example #1 simply because I do not have the tech understanding and saavy to "compete" or fight aganist these players. They'd just overwhelm me with techno-babble until I either IGNORE them altogether or I throw up my hands in surrender.

I can't develop counter-tactics and counter-strategies for tech's or techno-babble that I can't even understand. How can I?

I am sure I'm not the only one here in NS with this problem.

While RP2 is a fine example, let me rephrase this: getting into detail about a technology or equipment does not equal to "tech-wank". Thus, Specifics and details =/= "tech-wank". You are ignoring the difference between these two concepts. While acting as the tech is somewhat invincible and going into too deep of a depth is tech-wanking, getting a bit more specific about your technology is a different matter. In fact, it is more productive, since you'll actually have a clear idea of what the feature on the equipment is designed to accomplish.

I get confused very easily between "Specifics", "Details", and "How-it-works", so it blurs into techno-babble to me.

Whenever I see RP's like in Example #1, I just go "meh" and if I'm involved, I just skim it over and post a few losses rather than going on Google and spend hours browsing dozens of web-pages to research counter-technologies just to defeat the enemy's technology.

That is not fun in my opinion.

Oh please. So a nation RPing his government in great details is also "dumb, amaeturish, and crappy?" Despite the difference in appearance, it's still the same in concept. It is not their problem if you somehow refuse to accept the fact that many does choose to go into deeper depths.

I can understand government, politics, economy, industry, etc. much better than technology (especially military technology). I just can't seem to understand the military technologies because to put it simply, it overwhelms me.

I do call players trying to techno-babble their way to victory "stupid, foolish, and bullshit" especially when I or other players do not understand or have the tech-saavy to come up with counters. I refuse to accept losses or be defeated solely based on technology, because tech is not the "be-all, end-all" of warfare.

If people think they are going to win over me just because they are more smart with technology, they have a new think coming. I won't submit to that mentality of "tech beats everything".

Hmm... Since you have outlined and distinguished the three players, allegably as "tech-wankers", care to provide some examples? I fail to see why going into a deeper depth about one's equipment and technology is this so-called "tank-wanking" as your greatly inflated (and flawed) assumption implies. So by your standards, putting some effort into one's products and technologies is just a waste of time? Tell that to the many RPers in II who does RP greatly while putting a lot of efforts into their products to make it better and enhancing one's RP experience. At the same time, observing others' progress doesn't by any means mean that you can't learn from it, and consequently get more accustomed to it.

Once again, I have been here for almost a year, and I still have very little understanding of military technology. This is very clearly evidenced by my less-than-stellar attempts at developing my own stuff like my Colossus artillery and Paragon MBT.

NS players can RP and design their products all they want, it doesn't bother me. However, when they RP with me, I'll just treat their products equally to mine. What I mean by that is that my stuff is just as good as theirs, and their stuff is as good as mine. I'm not better than them, and they're not better than me.

Basically "My stuff = any NS player stuff" in any scenario so to allow for more strategy, tactics, diplomacy, etc.

At least, through over a year of designing products and going into great depths about them, I certainly don't feel that I'm wasting any time here. Instead, as an RPer, it should also be your responsibility to get more accustomed to it and adjust accordingly. In fact, you will actually find yourself contradicted by many of the well-known designers here, who incidentally, also RPs very well.

Again, I've been trying to understand the techno-babble for almost a year now, and I still haven't been able to do so at any degree of effectiveness. For some reason, I just can't grasp military technology and hardware the same way I can grasp government, politics, industry, economy, etc. stuff.

In all honesty, the only way for me to even have any hope of understanding the techno-babble, or RP with those players who use tech all the time, I'd need a full time tech-tutor or something.




EDIT:

Here's a link to Doomingsland's tank.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=424429

I can't even start to understand 1 / 10 of anything of his tank. That is what I mean by me not being able to understand techno-babble and such.

I want to say, Sharina, I agree with most of your points. The value of an "Earth" allows you to see directly who your neighbours are and who you can interact with, as well as give clear, visual boundaries that you can work with. This is much easier than having to picture thousands of potential neighbours who could change in a matter of hours.

However, if I can address a few points directly:

2. The Earth Series fills in a niche for us players who want to RP on an actual Earth, and RP out the creation, rise, and decline of empires. The Earth Series would act as a freeform RP version of Civilization I, II, and III. In Civilizatoion games, you are stuck with numbers and pre-set units, stats, cities, etc. In the Earth Series, you can play a "Civilization" type of game but you create your own units, nation, cities, culture, traditions, etc.

There are some of us who prefer to RP in an actual Earth setting and act out alternate histories, or see if they can RP a different MT world (Like Japan as a Superpower, and USA as a third world country). In NS Earth, you don't have that kind of history or alternate history "scenarios" to work with as in NS Earth, its all NS nations and little to no RL nations involved.

RPing as one of the nations you are describing (I am the modern-day version of the Roman Empire), I've found it's much harder to implement "my grand design" on an Earth, because there you're restricted in what you can claim. For example, on Earth II (which I am a part of), I'm unable to reconstruct even the Western Roman Empire as it existed because the territories are divided among other nations, so if I wanted to that route, either I negotiate with the nations who do own the territories I want or I fight for them, both of which are time-consuming tasks when all you want to do is create a nation. Thus I implemented my "main" nation on an alternate Earth seperate from any Earth (NS or otherwise) present on the forums, where I can claim whatever I want whenever I want without worrying about who owns what. Yeah, it means that I'm essentially RP-ing my main nation on an Earth that's essentially my own, but if you can control the land divisions it solves a lot of headaches when shaping your nation.

As far as finding out how I get to "my" Earth and to Earth II: well, I've always thought the same thing Sharina has- the Sliders technology- and, while it's FT, I just see it has "happening" and ignore to mention it, leaving it up to the nation I'm RPing with to decide how I managed to arrive. NS' universes become trickier and trickier to navigate so I just let it be.

1. Some of us aren't geniuses, gun fanatics, mechanical engineers, etc.

That means that some of us won't even understand or know how or why a 30 inch long gun barrel is better than a 28 inch gun barrel. Or why a 20 inch naval gun is better than a 30 inch one.

To those of us who aren't the "tech-savvy" college graduates, tech-wank ruins RP's because we'd be forced to read all those intense descriptions, and not understand any of it except the basics.

While that is true, knowing technological details can have its merits- if, say, the tank is better protected against conventional mines then your mines may not take out as many tanks as you'd think. However, as Omz222 said, as long as it doesn't cross into godmodding, then explaining tech so that one can understand how to deal with it (including, OOCly, its weaknesses) should not pose a problem.

I'd also like to make a statement about Earth II: I personally understand the "no other Earths" policy because Earth II was originally designed to give people shut out of Earth I a chance to claim an Earth nation. It's also morphed into this rule where Earth II nations can't make claims in other Earths, but *shurgs* I'll live with it. Nothing, however, is preventing Earth II nations from RPing outside of it- just not making claims elsewhere. It is, I think, the only thing I don't really like about Earth II but other than that it's a well-run Earth that's fun to RP in and one where I wouldn't trade my experiences for anything else.

Also, in regards to stats and Earth: I've questioned the legitimacy of claims that people can fit two or three billion people in, say, an area the size of Europe. I mean, yeah there's the space, but is that a viable state? I don't think so- you need farmland to produce the food your people will eat as well as the land necessary to build infrastructure and factories so that people can work and make your state operate, and fitting in people in that area- let alone three billion of them in that area- cuts into that land. Thus, I just use RL stats in my case and just forget everything else.

Tech-Wank

A very common and less offensive form of wank. It is abuse of high technology, either to break the laws of reality , or to enforce adherence to minutiae on an RP not concerned with technicalities of combat systems.

In general NS, most people are not technophiles, and will become irked when you proceed to explain to them exactly how your 8mm Tungsten-Carbide, Armor-Piercing, Fin-Stabilized, Discarding-Sabot fletchette firing assault rifles are perfectly designed to penetrate their mere level three kevlar vests. This would be considered wank because most players would not know about the benefits of TC/DU APFSDS Fletchettes, and would negate their infantry armor. This is NOT a godmode, however, since it does not change the rules of reality or break the roleplay. (And yes, I used my own weapon as an example of wank. It's the SAG ACR, if you want to know.)

However, announcing that, because your opponent only claimed to use "RPGs" on your tank, it did no damage (since the RPG-7 is incapable of piercing the glacis plate of a Main Battle Tank, and your opponent did not use an RPG-29 specifically) is tech wank AND a godmode, because it allows you to ignore their attack, and take no damage. Most players couldn't tell an RPG-7 from an SA-2, and they had the right idea (firing rockets at a tank), but not the intrinsic knowledge of weapons. In this case, assume that they are using the correct weapon.

Most blatant of tech-wank is the "impenetrable shield" and the "unstoppable bullet" syndrome, in which the technology becomes a get-out-of-jail-free card, allowing blatant godmoding to be disguised as legitimate gameplay. On a side note, the effect of an unstoppable bullet striking an impenetrable shield has proven catastrophic.I don't mind people making their own weapons, I don't mind them designing them for the perposes of getting a slight edge over their opponent, though I feel it's very important to remember that ulimately Nationstates is a roleplaying game and as such the majority of good threads are about how the war/battle is fought as well as the story of both players fighting for their own reasons.

Having a greater understanding of technology does help to argue your case for why your weapons have greater effect (assuming they actually do have greater effect, I've had times when my supposedly superiour technology was actually a huge hinderance in one encounter) but ulimately it's just a part of the actual roleplay itself.

Personally, I feel that most designed gear is slightly better then generic 'state of the art' gear which other less technologically minded players use, but not enough to garentee a win... sure, the chances are that your weapons and ships are more effective and you as a RPer will be taking that into account when your good armour takes a hit (thus taking a little less damage then normal because of well designed armour) and perhaps the other player will take more damage when his generic fighters are attacked by specially designed fighter jets.

Freeform RP allows people to deal with technology as they want... they shouldn't completely ignore designed units, but they shouldn't automatically be completely inferiour either... our nations do afterall work on keeping our military up to date, even if they aren't as brilliant as these designed state of the art weapons, they do at least keep up close behind. Those who don't on purpose (just as Hogsweat a while back, though I think he's updated his gear now) will out right admit their technology is much more crappy, but the rest of us are likely to allow for a slight edge, perhaps even a large advantage if that weapon is your speciality (such as those nations who specialise in naval gear). Ulimately it's down to the players to work such stuff out. Personally I would rather do war like a large movie... losing as plot demands depending on how well the opponent fights.

Ah, fizzshnozzle (random insult I just thought of). The Earth II only is war threads for people who have signed up for Earth II. If you want to sign up, you go to the Revitalization page and talk about it there. And each playing with their OWN picture of the world is about the worst, !@#$%^& idea I've ever heard on this forum. Because then you get issues like these examples.

Dipshit: I invade your territory by amphibious means

Dupshit: In my view of the world, I'm landlocked

Dipshit: Then my soldiers march into your territory overland

Dupshit: But in my view of the world, your not adjacent to me, and I'm surrounded by mountains

Dipshit: Then I drop paratroopers

Dupshit: But I have a super uber air defence system that will own your planes.

Dipshit: But you never posted you had that!

Dupshit: Yes I did, right in the midddle of the "World Defences Thread"

Dipshit: But that thread is 2 million posts long...

And there you have it.


And no one has rebutted this yet.

I do admit that I'm not a genius at tech or understanding NS tech. I've been here for almost a year, and I still have trouble trying to understand and sort through RP's that use lots of tech terminology and techno-babble.
Well, as in the previous post, that's nothing wrong by itself, though the general rule is that people do need to get a bit more accustomed to the technologies and equipment in NS themselves if they desire for a better RP experience in II. Since many RPs will involve technology (though still not this "tech-wank"), it is important to understand the fact that technology and equipment is an integral part of the RP, thus requiring RPers to explore further into the realms of military technology. I'm not saying that tech should be placed in front of the story (and I agree with Iuthia), but that getting a bit more specific about your technology than others is not tech-wank.

As well, as I can understand your situation at hand, I feel that it is also important for one to explain how their technology actually works on simpler terms, to those who understands less, in order to make a RP successful. Now, this is a cruical part of any OOC part of a good RP, so don't be afraid to ask.

You will have to pardon the technical deficinies and flaws, as I know almost nothing of these techno-babble and terminology. You can clearly see that I can't RP with people who RP like in that Example #1 simply because I do not have the tech understanding and saavy to "compete" or fight aganist these players. They'd just overwhelm me with techno-babble until I either IGNORE them altogether or I throw up my hands in surrender.
The example itself is fine, but I was responding to the depiction of "tech-wank" in Example #1 and the indirect depiction of the same thing in Example #1.

I can't develop counter-tactics and counter-strategies for tech's or techno-babble that I can't even understand. How can I?

I am sure I'm not the only one here in NS with this problem.
No, but it certainly doesn't hurt to spare some period of time to learn some more about NS military technology over the summer, provided that you want a better experience and an edge in war-oriented RPs in II. And that, sadly, is the truth. However, if you decide that it is not fun - simple, then don't do it, though it will also mean that you will remain quite unfamiliar with technologies, thu not being too able to formulate up counter-tactics and technologies. Remember, no technology is invincible; it is up to a creative mind to decide how to counter it efficiently and effectively.
I started off knowing nothing about military technology; yet, I know a considerable amount more than what I know in June '03. (No laser-guided ICBMs :P )

I do call players trying to techno-babble their way to victory "stupid, foolish, and bullshit" especially when I or other players do not understand or have the tech-saavy to come up with counters. I refuse to accept losses or be defeated solely based on technology, because tech is not the "be-all, end-all" of warfare.
As said, it's not really "tech-wank" until the use of technology disrupts the RP OOCly and somehow assumes that their technology is invincible or is very hard to defeat by any and all available methods, thus not only causing serious pains in the head for those who may not be able to fully understand NS technology, but also creating unfairness. However, again, technology is only one of the part of the battle. Tactics, strategy, and creative thinking is one of the other parts.

NS players can RP and design their products all they want, it doesn't bother me. However, when they RP with me, I'll just treat their products equally to mine. What I mean by that is that my stuff is just as good as theirs, and their stuff is as good as mine. I'm not better than them, and they're not better than me.
Unfortunately, if you do choose to RP with them, then it is important that you do accept their technology, even if they are "superior" in some respects. No matter how good or bad you are at designing NS military equipment, that fact is still irrelevant considering that you can't force the other RPer to assume the capabilities of their products based on your product. It'd be unfair for them, even if you do not have the technological edge, as after all they often create their products with care and a lot of effort.

For those "exclusive" Earth's like Earth II that DO NOT allow any multi-Earth'ing RP or interaction whatsoever, I agree that those kinds of Earth's need their own forums.

However, for those Earth's like Earth III, Earth V, Earth RB, etc. that actually allows and encourages multi-Earth'ing and does not force / limit RP'ing to an exclusive community, I say let these Earths keep their RP's here in I.I. and NS in general.
Fair enough, I wasnt mainly talking about them. But do they exclude people who dont have territory? Im not sure... I think they might. And in all hoensty, that was something that Layarteb made up. It was never intended to be like that when Earth II was first made, and Earth I has never been like that.

However, the fact of the matter is that we can't get rid of storefronts. The exact same can be said for the Earth Series. You can't expect them to disappear or be erased.

In other words, Earth Series is here to stay, just like storefronts are.
I dont mind earths, just as I dont mind storefronts, so long as both of them actually ADD something to II, and dont just sap players / spam the forums with a copy/paste of www.army-technology.com

Don't forget some RP'ers use puppet nations to RP as well.

Take Guffingford for example. He RP's as Holy Panooly and Sirens of Titan, in addition to his main Guffingford nation. Thats 3 nations for 1 player.
? What bearing does this have on anything? The fact remains that there are only a few dozen accounts which are RPed with, and II has been LOSING active players lately.

Yes, I am aware that there hasn't been active dog-piling lately, but it is bound to happen again sooner or later. It's inevitable.

However, I have noticed a thread with many new nations which is beginning to look like a dogpile (mainly on the defender's side, I admit). It's a brewing war between Mondoth and some Siberia-like alliance, I lost the thread link though.
I dont honestly see what is wrong with "dogpiling" so long as it is done in a proper IC way (I mean come on, WWI was a dogpile if you really want to look at it like that; were the British French and Russia Empires n00bs? Was Italy a n00b? Come on...). Dogpiling which is just n00b-bashing etc should be treated as such, and you should recognise that it doesnt happen to experienced players unless they do something monumentally stupid, in which case they deserve it. No one just randomly gets a bunch of allies and invades some other nation like yours completely randomly and for no reason.

In this scenario, the USA used tactics... air-power aganist tanks, not full blown tank / ground war like during WW II.

Suppose the USA and Iraq went to full tank warfare, *WITHOUT* any air support or bombing missions on either side, then it wouldn't be over in 100 hours. It would take much longer.
And you're saying Iraq doesnt understand tactics? The then 3rd largest army in the world, with a military trained largely by Britain, France and America didnt understand tactics. Wow. I never knew.

The truth is that the British and American forces won because we had tanks that could one-hit-kill anything the Iraquis had at outside their range, and even if they did get close enough they didnt have a very good chance against our tanks' armour. Have you ever been to Portsmouth? Have you seen the HMS Warrior? At the time, the HMS Warrior on its own could have taken on every other ship in the world and, so long as it didnt run out of ammunition, win. Tech isnt useless, and is often as important a factor as tactics, logistics and numbers. Pushing it aside and declaring it "n00b" is just bad RPing.

That aside, I think all the tech-wanking is completely pointless. What difference does an aircraft going at mach 1.2 compared to one that goes at mach 1.5? Planes are planes in that case. They fly, they fight, and they die. That simple.
THere isnt an awful lot of difference, because you've set the figures up so there isnt. It's like saying "What's the difference between earning £5 an hour and £5.50 and hour? None. Therefore wages dont mean anything - we all earn the same." I pose a different, and equally biased question: What's the difference between a WWI biplane with its only armament being the pilot and his Browning revolver and a JSF? Are they "just planes"?

No. I can understand people who dont know much about military technology wanting to RP with generic-tech to make everything simpler. I understand that, and Im willing to accomodate it if I ever RPed a war with you. But stop pretending it gives you the right to criticise the way everyone else wants to RP and pull them down to your own level of RTS-style simplification. It doesnt.

I do admit that I'm not a genius at tech or understanding NS tech. I've been here for almost a year, and I still have trouble trying to understand and sort through RP's that use lots of tech terminology and techno-babble.
Well, as in the previous post, that's nothing wrong by itself, though the general rule is that people do need to get a bit more accustomed to the technologies and equipment in NS themselves if they desire for a better RP experience in II. Since many RPs will involve technology (though still not this "tech-wank"), it is important to understand the fact that technology and equipment is an integral part of the RP, thus requiring RPers to explore further into the realms of military technology. I'm not saying that tech should be placed in front of the story (and I agree with Iuthia), but that getting a bit more specific about your technology than others is not tech-wank.

As well, as I can understand your situation at hand, I feel that it is also important for one to explain how their technology actually works on simpler terms, to those who understands less, in order to make a RP successful. Now, this is a cruical part of any OOC part of a good RP, so don't be afraid to ask.

You will have to pardon the technical deficinies and flaws, as I know almost nothing of these techno-babble and terminology. You can clearly see that I can't RP with people who RP like in that Example #1 simply because I do not have the tech understanding and saavy to "compete" or fight aganist these players. They'd just overwhelm me with techno-babble until I either IGNORE them altogether or I throw up my hands in surrender.
The example itself is fine, but I was responding to the depiction of "tech-wank" in Example #1 and the indirect depiction of the same thing in Example #1.

I can't develop counter-tactics and counter-strategies for tech's or techno-babble that I can't even understand. How can I?

I am sure I'm not the only one here in NS with this problem.
No, but it certainly doesn't hurt to spare some period of time to learn some more about NS military technology over the summer, provided that you want a better experience and an edge in war-oriented RPs in II. And that, sadly, is the truth. However, if you decide that it is not fun - simple, then don't do it, though it will also mean that you will remain quite unfamiliar with technologies, thu not being too able to formulate up counter-tactics and technologies. Remember, no technology is invincible; it is up to a creative mind to decide how to counter it efficiently and effectively.
I started off knowing nothing about military technology; yet, I know a considerable amount more than what I know in June '03. (No laser-guided ICBMs :P )

I do call players trying to techno-babble their way to victory "stupid, foolish, and bullshit" especially when I or other players do not understand or have the tech-saavy to come up with counters. I refuse to accept losses or be defeated solely based on technology, because tech is not the "be-all, end-all" of warfare.
As said, it's not really "tech-wank" until the use of technology disrupts the RP OOCly and somehow assumes that their technology is invincible or is very hard to defeat by any and all available methods, thus not only causing serious pains in the head for those who may not be able to fully understand NS technology, but also creating unfairness. However, again, technology is only one of the part of the battle. Tactics, strategy, and creative thinking is one of the other parts.

NS players can RP and design their products all they want, it doesn't bother me. However, when they RP with me, I'll just treat their products equally to mine. What I mean by that is that my stuff is just as good as theirs, and their stuff is as good as mine. I'm not better than them, and they're not better than me.
Unfortunately, if you do choose to RP with them, then it is important that you do accept their technology, even if they are "superior" in some respects (HOWEVER, note that "accept" is still different than "pointing out a few concerns" about the technology's features, i.e. its advantages or disadvantages or/and irs deficencies, as no one should be forced for example, to accept an aircraft that can fly at any altitudes and into space and carrying a 1 million kg bomb load). No matter how good or bad you are at designing NS military equipment, that fact is still irrelevant considering that you can't force the other RPer to assume the capabilities of their products based on your product. Though they may still have a few glitches and the designers may be somewhat wrong on the features of their products (i.e. assuming "superiority" of a margin over others because of an assortment of features), accepting it is still the first step for the RP. It'd be unfair for them if you do not accept all of their products' "superior" features at all (provided that they are not ridiculous in terms of feasibility, or not godmodery/techwankery), even if you do not have the technological edge, as after all they often create their products with care and a lot of effort.
Now, you can ask them and "negotiate" with your opponents OOCly to get a better edge as Praetonia stated, and they should be able to "dumb down" their technology and capabilities for the sake of RPing and fairness (I have done this in almost all of the war RPs I have been - otherwise, shooting down 500 planes would be dull and uninteresting), but forcing them to follow your technology is another matter.

Kreynoria']And no one has rebutted this yet.

And still, no one rebutts it because its too good a point.

Omz: You may want to delete one of those posts, probably the first one before Praetonia's as you basically repeat the same thing with an edit to answer it more thoroughly.

Generally I agree with what you two argue; being more descriptive and detailed about your technology provides you with a certain amount of edge if only because you understand the technology and how it's meant to be used.

In an RP between two RPers who are looking for a fight using their skill and knowledge of warfare then it's understandable they both want to go over the finer points of their technological differences and the advantages their own units provide them. In such RPs it's often just as much about the technology as it is about the actual conflict... what are you going to use to counter their attack? How will you defend against X technology and so on.

On the other hand, you have players like me who instead of spending hours on the specifics of a design, instead I prefer to think about the concept and look I'm going for. My nation may be a Military Dictatorship; but unlike many other nations I've seen with such a power structure, I'm doing it for the concept behind my nations society... Iuthia's military is hardly ever used as it's a political tool and quite frankly a nation which wasn't a Military Dictatorship often has better funding and equipement.

I have some individual technologys and some of the systems I use are somewhat unconventional (like Storefronts and Weapon designs, they have their own thread and mention should I need to refer to them) but mostly I'm dealing with generic gear with a slight twist because I'm not a Modern Tecnology nation when push comes to shove.

I roleplay wars differently from many players who frequent International Incidents and as such you may notice I don't get involved in the majority of them because of these different opinions. I don't like arguements about technology and the whole competitive angle is something I like to leave to In Character... so the conflicts I'm likely to seriously get involved in are highly plot oriented, there is still uncertainity even though we have an idea in mind of what could happen, better to aim for something, see how the other reacts and go with it if it sounds like it will work.

But meh, different people really... I generally avoid getting drawn into a situation where it's all about raw power and the other player trying to own me, it quickly turns into a arguement followed by ignorefests.

Kreynoria']And still, no one rebuts it because its too good a point.

I'll go and rebut it for you that is a point of freeform and the beauty and horror of it. You can do anything you want though II may have placed 'limits' such as your economy and population there is nothing stopping you from having an uber air defense system, except that it is god modeling and heavily frowned upon by the Community.

That situation barely happens anymore with the exception of NoObs and newbs. They either don't understand this game or are being assholes. This game is very different from normal text based role-plays. I have recently recruited a person to the game who will be making his appearance soon, and frankly he made me realize how different NS is. I mean we have dozens upon dozens of threads on how to role-play here in II and that it is both good and bad, now before I go off on a tangent let me get back to the topic.

Your point is good and valid to a degree however, with more and more nations guiding instead of attacking the newer nations it is somewhat a 'rare' show now a days. Though it still does happen a couple of times a week, but then again we have over ten wars in a day sometimes so a couple of times a week is nothing.

Hope I cleared it up a bit, only just recently getting into these discussions and explaining thing a magigies.

Okay, I appreciate your points, Omz, Iuthia, and Praetonia.

I understand that there are some players who love and enjoy designing and creating their own stuff. I won't begrudge them that, or force them to abandon these things. Creating your own stuff is completely OK with me. The only problem I have with that is if it gets overly complicated like with Doomingsland's tank that I provided the link to. When there's a lot of techno-babble involved, I can't even start to understand how his tank works, and any effective ways to counter it.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=424429

Link to his "overly-complicated" tank in case you missed the link the first time.

Thus, that is the kind of tech-wank and techno-babble I depise and don't enjoy seeing / reading / RP'ing with. However, mild tech-wank is okay by me, such as a nation's own brand of equipment, vehicles, or weapons. At least I can understand "brands" and custom designations.



What I meant by "treating the other player's tech as equal to my own" is when I'm faced with stuff like Doomingsland's tank. I would treat his tank to be just as good as mine, and my tanks just as good as his. That way, I won't have to deal with the uber-complexities of his tank and all the techno-babble in it. Or I could treat his tank as maybe 10% better than mine.

However, I refuse to accept 10 to 1 losses or anything like that, meaning that for each 1 of Doomingsland's tanks killed, he kills 10 of my tanks... not gonna happen. In that situation, at the very best, I'll just say for every 5 tanks of his that I kill, he might kill 6 or 7 of mine instead of 50 of my tanks killed for every 5 of his.

This saves me a lot of time, headache, and frustration, as I won't have to go onto Google and spend hours and hours looking up every little thing on his uber-tank to figure out how to effectively counter it.



Praetonia, my analogs don't go as extreme as a bi-plane to a JSF jet plane. What I was going for is comparable tech's... meanining jet-planes going at either Mach 1.2 or Mach 1.5. Or employing 80 and 100 pound missiles / bombs. To me they're all the same, meaning they kill, blow stuff up, and do damage.

Once again, I do not want to spend hours of my free time researching every last little detail on every NS'er tech thing. It'd suck up my time, leaving me with little to no time to RP. I'd much prefer to use that time to actually do some RP, because RP counts for far more than technology does in NS in my eyes. Someone can have the best tech ever in NS, but RP's poorly, while a person in NS who has medicore tech but RP's great... that great RP'er can pull off victories and do much better in warfare than the "best-tech but poor skill" RP'er.



One more example / point about tech...

If I was a general of the Aztecs, I could easily wipe out the Spanish invaders. I could ambush the gun-wielding Spainards with my warriors armed with bows and arrows in the rainforest. Spanish muskets make noise and has visible smoke and flashes of light, while bow+arrows doesn't.

Then my bow+arrow warriors wipe out the Spanish, because my warriors are very well versed in jungle warfare while the Spanish aren't. Also, I'd be able to make more bows and arrows much easier than the Spanish making gunpowder and gun bullet pellets.

That, in addition to just 1,000 Spanish soldiers aganist an Aztec empire of millions.

Thus, lesser technology can win the day in this case.



I do admit I get upset at times, and slam things like tech because it does annoy me to no end when people base their RP's around tech, instead of base their tech's around their RP's. The constant "OMG! My tech is better than yours!" and "Post higher losses please!" gets on my nerves. Why can't people forget all that crap and focus on what really counts, which are tactics, strategy, and having fun?

Yes, I do know that there are people who love to show off their tech's and that they consider it "fun" to do so. But what of those people like myself who prefer to focus on the story aspect of RP's rather than trying to bludegon the enemy to death with "My tech is better than yours!" for victory?

I don't see why I should delete my post by any means, especially considering that not only have I expanded on many of the concepts in response to Sharina's statements, but also addressed many of the deficencies and flaws present in the act of labeling many equipments/products in NS as "tech-wanking". This, I feel, is simply a baseless claim as tech-wanking and stating that it has near-invincibility is absolutely different from going more in depth about one's product, and becoming more creative. Don't exactly understand what the tech-babbling is all about? No problem with that, and I can understand, but it gives you no reason for coming up with this flawed accusation that such products are a form of "tech-wanking" when the creator has done nothing to make it look as if it's almost undefeatable by any and all equipments and tactics and as if it has virtually no flaws or disadvantages (well, perhaps not beyond some marketing gimmicks). Thus, as a weapon designer myself, I feel that it would be absolutely imperative for me to respond and address this, as it is simply flawed to think that something is tech-wanking just because it has more features that makes it much more useful, than your standard generic _fighterplane_x_ or _m1a323929_abrams_.

Apologies if I did repeat many of the points people have previously raised (didn't read their arguments much anyways) and if I sounded too harsh, but I feel that this is an issue that I should address, if not criticize.

I don't see why I should delete my post by any means, especially considering that not only have I expanded on many of the concepts in response to Sharina's statements, but also addressed many of the deficencies and flaws present in the act of labeling many equipments/products in NS as "tech-wanking". This, I feel, is simply a baseless claim as tech-wanking and stating that it has near-invincibility is absolutely different from going more in depth about one's product, and becoming more creative. Don't exactly understand what the tech-babbling is all about? No problem with that, and I can understand, but it gives you no reason for coming up with this flawed accusation that such products are a form of "tech-wanking". Thus, as a weapon designer myself, I feel that it would be absolutely imperative for me to respond and address this, as it is simply flawed to think that something is tech-wanking just because it has more features that makes it much more useful, than your standard generic _fighterplane_x_ or _m1a323929_abrams_.

I classify NS tech / equipment into two categories.

Tech-Wank: Any overly complicated technologies or pieces of hardware and equipment.

It is difficult to understand how it works, and is an effort just to understand the basics of the thing in question. It becomes necessary to spend hours on Google.com just to understand every little thing in the technology or hardware, and also to come up with possible counters. This category also includes equipment with lots and lots of ancroymns and hard to understand words + complex explainations.

Examples: Doomingsland's tank.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8371243&postcount=20



Non-Wank: Any custom technology, hardware, or equipment that are somewhat easy to understand and recongize.

These things would be easy to understand how it works and functions. People wouldn't need to spend hours on Google.com to figure out counter-measures. These things are not seemingly invinicible at first-glance, and has a decent chance of being countered by non-geeks, or the average street-Joe.

Examples: Womble's corvette.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9080118&postcount=1



Hope that helps you understand my classification system.

You still ignore the very basic, fundamental, and easy-to-understand fact that Complicated and In-Depth =/= ("not equal to") tech-wank in all and any cases. A complicated and in-depth product, while its full potentials may be difficult to grasp or roleplayed out in an RP, is not "tech-wank" by itself when the creator does not explicitly make it (by changing the descriptions and specifications, or/and stating it directly) as if it is almost undefeatable by any current technology and tactics in NS, and as if the only thing it has are "good" features and advantages over other products, as opposed to also having flaws and deficiencies. Just because the whole decriptions of the product are hard-to-understand for those non-military-technologically-informed does not mean that they are tech-wank. There is a clear distinction between a two. Now, a complicated product may be tech-wanking depending on its characteristics and the implications made by its creator, but not all are tech-wanking. By labeling all "tech-wanking", you are presenting yourself a greatly inflated and flawed exaggeration.

I agree that a technological product shouldn't be RPed to the point where it would complicate the whole RP and cover the storyline aspect of the RP, but that does not mean that it's tech-wanking.

(BTW - The link you gave me links me directly into this thread. You might want to re-check your link. However, though I don't know how Doomingsland roleplays his units, I seriously doubt taht the product itself is "tech-wanking" by any way. Maybe complicated, but not as bad as you describe.)

You still ignore the very basic, fundamental, and easy-to-understand fact that Complicated and In-Depth =/= ("not equal to") tech-wank. A complicated and in-depth product, while its full potentials may be difficult to grasp or roleplayed out in an RP, is not "tech-wank" by itself when the creator does not explicitly make it (by changing the descriptions and specifications, or/and stating it directly) as if it is almost undefeatable by any current technology and tactics in NS. Just because the whole decriptions of the product are hard-to-understand for those non-military-technologically-informed does not mean that they are tech-wank. There is a clear distinction between a two. Now, a complicated product may be tech-wanking depending on its characteristics and the implications made by its creator, but not all are tech-wanking. By labeling all "tech-wanking", you are presenting yourself a greatly inflated and flawed exaggeration.

I agree that a technological product shouldn't be RPed to the point where it would complicate the whole RP and cover the storyline aspect of the RP, but that does not mean that it's tech-wanking.

(BTW - The link you gave me links me directly into this thread. You might want to re-check your link. However, though I don't know how Doomingsland roleplays his units, I seriously doubt taht the product itself is "tech-wanking" by any way. Maybe complicated, but not as bad as you describe.)

I fixed the link... Must have been a bad copy + paste. The correct link is as follows...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8371243&postcount=20


That aside, I guess we two have two different classification systems. I'm trying to label a group of technologies and / or products into two areas.

"Complicated stuff that makes non-geeks heads hurt, and seems impossible to defeat."

"Easy-to-understand stuff that can be worked with, RP'ed with, and countered reasonably without need of hours of research."



I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I'm engaged in war RP's, and I face off aganist someone with their own equipment. Then when I post an attack aganist him / her, that player posts unrealistic losses. I ask "Why?" and then that player responds by either linking or posting his / her technology in his / her military product. I try to go over it, leading me to the scenario described above.

If the player's stuff is easy to understand / grasp, then I can respond by saying "Okay, your losses may not fit in with what your technology can do" then work it out from there.

If the player's stuff is very hard to understand / grasp, like the "complicated" stuff, I'm more likely to go "Fuck it, I'm not bothering with this crap." or something along these lines. Then I either quit the RP, refuse to post high losses on my side, or give up and treat that player's tech as equal to mine for a 50 / 50 or 40 / 60 loss ratio in his / her favor.

Uh... the ST-29 is a tech-wank? Even if you do classify it differently, it still does not change the fact that the classification is in itself fundamentally flawed in concept. Just because something is complicated (and this is true in the case of the ST-29) does not automatically mean it is "tech-wank" where it would disrupt an RP. I've seen the ST-29 RPed in combat and I employ a variant of the ST-29 itself (not the -A1 variant), but I'm afraid that I must fully disagree with the fact that the product itself will complicate a RP. In the end, it still depends on how the individual roleplayer will RP it. Though there are some products (but definately not the ST-29) that are tech-wanks, including tanks, aircraft, and other systems, the products themselves are not tech-wank in general, unless someone decides to fully expand on their complex nature and consequently, complicate and ruining the RP as a whole. Similarily, no products are invulnerable, and they can still be defeated through the use of creativity, tactics, technology, and sheer thinking. I for one, am aware that in some cases the designer of the tank themselves has stated that the tanks can be defeated (note: defeat), by the use of innovative tactics and some deeper thinking of course. Each product has their disadvantages of course, and can be directly or/and indirectly exploited at one's advantage and the other's disadvantage. What's the fun if a game doesn't require any thinking?

Uh... the ST-29 is a tech-wank? Even if you do classify it differently, it still does not change the fact that the classification is in itself fundamentally flawed in concept. Just because something is complicated (and this is true in the case of the ST-29) does not automatically mean it is "tech-wank" where it would disrupt an RP. I've seen the ST-29 RPed in combat and I employ a variant of the ST-29 itself (not the -A1 variant), but I'm afraid that I must fully disagree with the fact that the product itself will complicate a RP. In the end, it still depends on how the individual roleplayer will RP it. Though there are some products (but definately not the ST-29) that are tech-wanks, including tanks, aircraft, and other systems, the products themselves are not tech-wank in general, unless someone decides to fully expand on their complex nature and consequently, complicate and ruining the RP as a whole. Similarily, no products are invulnerable, and they can still be defeated through the use of creativity, tactics, technology, and sheer thinking. I for one, am aware that in some cases the designer of the tank themselves has stated that the tanks can be defeated (note: defeat), by the use of innovative tactics and some deeper thinking of course. Each product has their disadvantages of course, and can be directly or/and indirectly exploited at one's advantage and the other's disadvantage. What's the fun if a game doesn't require any thinking?

There is such a thing as "over-thinking".

There is no fun in RP'ing or gaming if someone is forced to think-too-much, over-strategize, or over-analyze things just to level the playing field or so to speak. Some people may get a rush or derive pleasure from uber-thinking and uber-strategizing, but I am not one of them.

I am more of a story-based RP'er who enjoys writing and reading stories, and I prefer to focus on "what is happening" rather than "how it is happening". I'm not one of these RP'ers who rely on technology to win wars or any conflict whatsoever.

I do like games that require thinking, such as Civilization or Sim City series of games. However, when games require insane amounts of thinking, they lose their appeal. What's the point of playing games if you are forced to "think them to death"?

Such is the case with finding ways to counter every last single NS tech and military hardware. To do so effectively would require me or other people to sit behind his / her computer for hours on end, searching Google.com and hundreds of web-pages (counting all the common tech's in use in NS) for counters that may or may not work.

Hell, why not change NationStates to something like "TechStates, War of Technologies"?

NS can still be fun with the thinking part, but instead of devoting the thinking part towards the tech arms-race, devote it to strategy / tactics, politics, or diplomatic intrigue?



I have tried to think up some interesting ideas for my nation's technologies. But I've been forced to scrap these ideas because people yell that it is un-feasible, god-modding, not possible in MT or even Post-MT, etc. For example, remember my debates about biologic weapons from last week? I got clobbered to death in there, when I tried to develop something as an alternative to "OMG! Nukes 0f d00m!".

I don't want to hang out with the FT crowd, because then I'll get FT tech-wanked to death 10x worse than any MT or Post-MT situation. People would claim FT crap over me like nanites, planet-killers, 10 kilometer starships, etc. Hence this is why I want to keep my one Post-MT tech, Sliding, from getting or being labelled as FT.

I signed up here at NS to develop a nation, and hopefully RP with other NS'ers in either warfare or diplomacy. I did not sign up on NS to engage in a contest of clobbering the opponent to death via technology. I also didn't sign up on NS to have my ideas and innovations shouted down to death.

There is such a thing as "over-thinking".
There is also such as thing as "over-worrying". Further, though I'd agree with the fact that there would be no fun if it is over complex, after all, any game requires some thinking. In NS, this is even more true, in not only the military aspect but also the diplomatic and economic aspects as well. If you don't want to dedicate some time to think creatively and come up withe some innovative tactics and strategies, then don't expect gaining an upper hand in a war RP. It's that simple. Success depends on stratagem, not "calling-everything-tech wank" just because they happen to be more complex than your generic figher jets and tanks.
To put it very bluntly and harshly, if you are not willing to eert some effort, then don't expect success. Applies to many games. Too bad.

I signed up here at NS to develop a nation, and hopefully RP with other NS'ers in either warfare or diplomacy. I did not sign up on NS to engage in a contest of clobbering the opponent to death via technology. I also didn't sign up on NS to have my ideas and innovations shouted down to death.
Typically I'll agree with you over the fact that a war based on technology is very dull and frustrating, and would only cause problems and give everyone a bad time. However, if you don't like wars in general and won't accept the fact that technology does have a part, then don't RP wars. Simple. If you don't like that aspect, then don't do it, and instead focus more on the storyline. Nothing wrong with that, and I have a reason to shun fantasy and magic RPs too; however, this is still largely irrelevant to the fact that the current definition of "tech wank" of yours is indeed flawed, as it essentially labels every thing "too complex" to your standards as something that is not too good - i.e. blatant tech-wanking. You must not ignore the other parts that goes into a product, such as creativity and precision. It would be very dull and uninteresting if every tank in NS carries a 120mm ETC gun and the exact same systems and features.

There is also such as thing as "over-worrying". Further, though I'd agree with the fact that there would be no fun if it is over complex, after all, any game requires some thinking. In NS, this is even more true, in not only the military aspect but also the diplomatic and economic aspects as well. If you don't want to dedicate some time to think creatively and come up withe some innovative tactics and strategies, then don't expect gaining an upper hand in a war RP. It's that simple. Success depends on stratagem, not "calling-everything-tech wank" just because they happen to be more complex than your generic figher jets and tanks.
To put it very bluntly and harshly, if you are not willing to eert some effort, then don't expect success. Applies to many games. Too bad.

I never said I hate thinking. I do enjoy thought provoking games and situations, like these Civilization and Sim City games. I plan my ideas, place cities or buildings in strategic places, and so forth in these games.

Now onto NS. I only call "tech-wank" on complex things that would require me to take hours of research on Google.com just to understand how that technology works and also to find any reasonable counter to that particular technology.

These accusations and calls of tech-wanking would only happen *IF* I'm involved with a player who refuses to take reasonable losses, and hides behind his / her superior tech and equipment. Then that same player has the gall to demand that I take higher losses because of his / her complex technology.

In those situations, I will only post 50 / 50 losses or 40 / 60 losses in the enemy's favor, as I will absouletely refuse to post high losses like 10 of my hardware killed for each 1 of the enemy's hardware. That's plain ridiclious, unless I can have 10x the enemy's numbers then it'll even out. But I don't see that happening unless the RP'er is a reasonable and fair-minded player.

Cynical, I admit.

Typically I'll agree with you over the fact that a war based on technology is very dull and frustrating, and would only cause problems and give everyone a bad time. However, if you don't like wars in general and won't accept the fact that technology does have a part, then don't RP wars. Simple. If you don't like that aspect, then don't do it, and instead focus more on the storyline. Nothing wrong with that, and I have a reason to shun fantasy and magic RPs too; however, this is still largely irrelevant to the fact that the current definition of "tech wank" of yours is indeed flawed, as it essentially labels every thing "too complex" to your standards as something that is not too good - i.e. blatant tech-wanking. You must not ignore the other parts that goes into a product, such as creativity and precision. It would be very dull and uninteresting if every tank in NS carries a 120mm ETC gun and the exact same systems and features.

I never said that everybody would be forced to have the exact same specs on their technology or hardware.

I have stated that a player can wield a 115mm ETC gun and another can wield a 125mm ETC gun. I also stated that I don't mind if people design their own equipment, or modify existing designs. People can customize all they want.

However, they can't expect me to understand their tech's and equipment, and I consider them all the same in my eyes for RP purposes. What I mean by this is that for RP purposes, a Mach 1.2 plane is pretty much the same as a Mach 1.5 plane as they can kill each other pretty easily. I just post the planes killing each other, then continue on with the RP, not having to waste hours on Google.com to find out how to make a Mach 2.0 to outdo these two planes.

Now onto NS. I only call "tech-wank" on complex things that would require me to take hours of research on Google.com just to understand how that technology works and also to find any reasonable counter to that particular technology.
The point, as it has been repeated for about a quintrillion times here, is that your interpretation of "tech-wank", regardless of how you use it, is still seriously flawed when considering that just because the product has a lot of depth to it, does not mean that it should be branded by a derogatory label such as "tech-wank". It's like saying that something that isn't a godmode (even though it might be approaching godmode), is a godmode. Sure, you haev your own interpretation, but don't expect others to accept it.

In those situations, I will only post 50 / 50 losses or 40 / 60 losses in the enemy's favor, as I will absouletely refuse to post high losses like 10 of my hardware killed for each 1 of the enemy's hardware. That's plain ridiclious, unless I can have 10x the enemy's numbers then it'll even out. But I don't see that happening unless the RP'er is a reasonable and fair-minded player.
Now, if the other side blatantly tech-wank however, there's a reason why OOC threads exist. Take the matter to the opponent OOCly, which is what you should do. Nevertheless, in many RPs, things like 30/70 losses will be possible, even without this "tech-wank".

However, they can't expect me to understand their tech's and equipment, and I consider them all the same in my eyes for RP purposes. What I mean by this is that for RP purposes, a Mach 1.2 plane is pretty much the same as a Mach 1.5 plane as they can kill each other pretty easily. I just post the planes killing each other, then continue on with the RP, not having to waste hours on Google.com to find out how to make a Mach 2.0 to outdo these two planes.
Once again, you are basing your accusation solely on numerical figures and the statistical aspect of a product. Mach 1.2 and Mach 1.5 won't appear much different on paper, but two products with distinctive design characteristics, which goes much beyond Mach 1.2/1.5/2/329249, will be different, and it's also likely that one will be superior than the others in some respects. That's an undeniable fact. Think the descriptions and the product in general is too complicated? In a RP you can nicely ask them to tone it down to allow a better RPing experience, instead of outright label it as "tech-wank". A good and friendly RPer should be able to respond to your request nicely. I have toned down my forces' capabilities in RPs multiple times myself.

EDIT: Overall however, to sum it up, though there are still deficencies in the interpretation of "tech-wanking", both sides has raised interesting points. While it is true that many in NS are not too informed in terms of technology, it does not automatically mean that it would be flawless to label any product that has a lot of features and depth in it as "tech-wank". Sure, they may be complex in nature and difficult to grasp at first, but all and every product has disadvantages and deficencies along with their advantages. Thus, there's nothing wrong with such a product itself; however, it is how one RPs it (i.e. as a near invincible platform and by RPing it to such a depth that it disrupts the whole RP) that can complicate a RP and the storyline telling process.
I think that should sum it up.

Wow. That was a lot of reading....

Sharina - OOC discussion with an opponent who understands the difference between IC and OOC can lead to good places. I've had combats with someone who coached me about how to put a hurting on his forces because the story was more important then winning. It's all about the other player.

ST-29: It's a wank. Buckyball matrix - and it only costs 20 million, considering the cost of buckyball creation? How about that buckyballs stick to nothing? Completely silent motor in a tank? Direct neural interfaces? Sorry, if I saw this thing in less then a PMT combat, I'd call "bullshit" and erase it as it's sheer crap as far as I'm concerned.

However - and read this before you all yap like mad dogs - it doesn't make a bit of difference. I don't play with him, he doesn't play with me, so it doesn't matter that he's created this tank. We don't interact.

That's the beauty of NS.

Multiple Earths: Sliders is one method. Ours is more akin to Amber. However it's done, you can interact with whomever you want, on whatever level you want, however you want. That's the beauty of the game - and it really doesn't matter how or even if you justify it. It's a game.

Now, Sharina, you're "afraid" of tech you don't understand, and there's nothing wrong with that. Feel free to tell what you see as techwankers to put their heads in barrels if they won't work on your terms. Easy solution. It doesn't mean, however, they're wrong, just as it doesn't mean you're wrong. AMF put it best - it's all about the story.

Alright, nuff said.

ST-29: It's a wank. Buckyball matrix - and it only costs 20 million, considering the cost of buckyball creation? How about that buckyballs stick to nothing? Completely silent motor in a tank? Direct neural interfaces? Sorry, if I saw this thing in less then a PMT combat, I'd call "bullshit" and erase it as it's sheer crap as far as I'm concerned.
Depends on the variant, though labeling it as "total crap" is still, despite the deficiencies that the tank might bear, a great exaggeration. Admittingly it is somewhat complicated, the tank as a whole is still a far cry from blatant "tech wank". I don't recall that I have seen the buckyball armour in some of the later Soviet Bloc variants, and I don't recall any statement stating that the motor is silent (instead, it stated that the tank has a silent operation capability through the use of a battery and fuel cell system, though that capability does present its own problems). The feasibility of the neural interface can be debated; but overall, I don't see how it is this "BS" as you claim.

Depends on the variant, though labeling it as "total crap" is still, despite the deficiencies that the tank might bear, a great exaggeration. Admittingly it is somewhat complicated, the tank as a whole is still a far cry from blatant "tech wank". I don't recall that I have seen the buckyball armour in some of the later Soviet Bloc variants, and I don't recall any statement stating that the motor is silent (instead, it stated that the tank has a silent operation capability through the use of a battery and fuel cell system, though that capability does present its own problems). The feasibility of the neural interface can be debated; but overall, I don't see how it is this "BS" as you claim.

He claims "completely silent", which is garbage - nothing that big can move completely silently.

He claims buckyball armor, which is wank - for $20 million, you're making a buckyball armored tank? Bull-shit. I'd believe $20 billion considering the nanoconnections you have to make to make it stick - but not that much less.

I suggest you reread all that was written in the link Sharina posted, which was all I did. From what I read, I'd call major wank and ignore the tank - far too low cost, far too good everything for the cost, and absolute crap all around for an MT tank.

And again (from the next paragraph I wrote) IT DOESN'T MATTER - I DON'T PLAY WITH HIM ANYWAY. So it really doesn't matter at all.

I suggest you reread all that was written in the link Sharina posted, which was all I did. From what I read, I'd call major wank and ignore the tank - far too low cost, far too good everything for the cost, and absolute crap all around for an MT tank.
I have read it, along with the descriptions of the sub-variants as well. You are correct about the fact that nothing's completely silent, but in regards to the buckyball armour, a lot of people has repeated the same mistake before the full realization came into light that buckyball's poor characteristics as an armour material. Incidently, I do use a domestically-modified version of the tank (which was in turn, based on a subvariant that didn't have all the gizmos), though it's basically dumbed down in many aspects to suit my own requirements.

And again (from the next paragraph I wrote) IT DOESN'T MATTER - I DON'T PLAY WITH HIM ANYWAY. So it really doesn't matter at all.
No, it doesn't really. However, since you did make a statement regarding a product that others except Doomingsland use as well, then it would be completely sensible for people to make a statement in response to that.

Praetonia, my analogs don't go as extreme as a bi-plane to a JSF jet plane. What I was going for is comparable tech's... meanining jet-planes going at either Mach 1.2 or Mach 1.5. Or employing 80 and 100 pound missiles / bombs. To me they're all the same, meaning they kill, blow stuff up, and do damage.
Well exactly. YOu're deliberately setting your analagies to be tiny so they cant be argued against (the Mach 1.5 plane would do better, actually, but meh). If you look at a realistic scenario (ie that ST-29 against an Abrams or something) then there would be a monumental difference.

Once again, I do not want to spend hours of my free time researching every last little detail on every NS'er tech thing. It'd suck up my time, leaving me with little to no time to RP. I'd much prefer to use that time to actually do some RP, because RP counts for far more than technology does in NS in my eyes. Someone can have the best tech ever in NS, but RP's poorly, while a person in NS who has medicore tech but RP's great... that great RP'er can pull off victories and do much better in warfare than the "best-tech but poor skill" RP'er.
I dont see what RPing ability has to do with anything. Perhaps tactical or strategic savvy, but I dont see how being able to write a good story makes you any better at fighting a war. At the end of the day, for a war to be fought properly then each side has to try their best to use the best technology, the best tactics, the best logistics etc etc. Tech is a part of that. I would agree that "Copy / paste my storefront now take t3h lo55ez!!!" 'roleplays' are not fun at all, but that doesnt mean that you should hate everything to do with tech just because of the most extreme cases (and most of your arguments so far have been taking the most extreme cases and trying to tar everyone else with the brush). It goes hand in hand with tactics, hand in hand with good logistics and hand in hand with "RP ability" whateve that is and however you classify it.

One more example / point about tech...

If I was a general of the Aztecs, I could easily wipe out the Spanish invaders. I could ambush the gun-wielding Spainards with my warriors armed with bows and arrows in the rainforest. Spanish muskets make noise and has visible smoke and flashes of light, while bow+arrows doesn't.

Then my bow+arrow warriors wipe out the Spanish, because my warriors are very well versed in jungle warfare while the Spanish aren't. Also, I'd be able to make more bows and arrows much easier than the Spanish making gunpowder and gun bullet pellets.

That, in addition to just 1,000 Spanish soldiers aganist an Aztec empire of millions
And how are you able to do that?

1) You understand guerilla warfare, which wasnt known then.

2) You know that the Spaniards have malicious intentions already.

3) You know what they're armed with, the weakesses of that armament and how to beat it.

In short, you arent RPing an Aztech, you're RPing you commanding an Aztech army and knowing things that an Aztech General (if there were such things) would neve have know. Which isnt awfully good RP.?

Well, let's make this into an example then, Omz.

If you and I were to get into it, and you insisted on using that tank, we'd have to agree on major modifications ahead of time, along with some "built in glitches" - which any real system has but most NS systems appear to have avoided. Such as the neural system causes "50 yard stare" to dramatically increase, as an example.

We'd then have to work out - could this tank exist with modified armor (as the buckyballs are completely out)? Well, in parts yes. How about if the cost is increased to "reasonable" (say, $75 million each) which cuts the number of this tank to be fielded?

Over time, and as OOC discussion, this tank would eventually become part of an RP - a more dangerous tank with some advantages, but far from the "uberweapon" it claims to be in that thread.

From that point, the RP gets discussed as it goes on - OOC threads are very useful, as are real time discussions - and the game goes on, fun for both of us.

And that's how it's "supposed" to be.

Though there are enough modifications to make it somewhat of a different tank (such as the removal of the neural interface and modifications in the electronics suite and armouring system), it still all depends on how the agreement will go, and whether if the proposal is fair and accepted by both sides or not. Similarily, there will also be similar proposals made regarding other weapons, most importantly being some of the weapons used on the opposing side. Regarding the cost, $75 million is still an exaggerated estimate, even though admittingly the original ST-29 (with all its electronics suite) would be definately much more than just a few million dollars. Along with that, keeps in mind that no weapon are invincible or "uberweapons" - as I recall, even one of its designers, Soviet Bloc, admittingly did state that the ST-29 can be defeted via various methods - though definately not an easy task that does not require some bits of thinking, concentration, and creativity.

As well, it is just one of the many available ways to tone the equipment and technology down on both sides to make the RP more enjoyable. It's not really the "supposed" way since there are still other ways to do it, regardless of its effectiveness in comparison.

Though there are enough modifications to make it somewhat of a different tank (such as the removal of the neural interface and modifications in the electronics suite and armouring system), it still all depends on how the agreement will go, and whether if the proposal is fair and accepted by both sides or not. Similarily, there will also be similar proposals made regarding other weapons, most importantly being some of the weapons used on the opposing side. Regarding the cost, $75 million is still an exaggerated estimate, even though admittingly the original ST-29 (with all its electronics suite) would be definately much more than just a few million dollars. Along with that, keeps in mind that no weapon are invincible or "uberweapons" - as I recall, even one of its designers, Soviet Bloc, admittingly did state that the ST-29 can be defeted via various methods - though definately not an easy task that does not require some bits of thinking, concentration, and creativity.

As well, it is just one of the many available ways to tone the equipment and technology down on both sides to make the RP more enjoyable. It's not really the "supposed" way since there are still other ways to do it, regardless of its effectiveness in comparison.

*rolls eyes*

Alright, you'd prefer "Nope, not accepting that tank, it's wank."
"Well I want to use it!"
"Then this isn't happening."

*click* ?

Example. That's what I was doing. Arguing with me about it and claiming "That's not the way to do it" doesn't forward the point.

And how are you able to do that?

1) You understand guerilla warfare, which wasnt known then.

2) You know that the Spaniards have malicious intentions already.

3) You know what they're armed with, the weakesses of that armament and how to beat it.

In short, you arent RPing an Aztech, you're RPing you commanding an Aztech army and knowing things that an Aztech General (if there were such things) would neve have know. Which isnt awfully good RP.?

1) Not necessarily- the idea of "ambushing" and using the terrain to your advantage has been around ever since the dawn of warfare itself. We've only just recently given it a name.

2-3) In RL, the technologically inferior Abyssinians laid a beating to the Italians, so it IS possible.

It would also matter how much intelligence the Aztec General had - are we talking about a first encounter, or someone further back who had time to consider things? Much to take into consideration.

It would also matter how much intelligence the Aztec General had - are we talking about a first encounter, or someone further back who had time to consider things? Much to take into consideration.

That is true- if I remember correctly, the Spaniards came in with maybe something only slightly larger than a raiding party and still defeated the Aztecs (who held a considerable numerical advantage to the Spaniards, who, I should also mention, did not have guns at the time and also had the help of hundreds of thousands of native Mesoamericans who hated Aztec rule). Thus, the circumstances suggest that history probably would not have played out very differently because the Spanish victory was not as inevitable as one might think.

In the Aztec scenario, there are still ways to defeat the Spainards.

The Spainards take down the Aztec Empire, but then the word of their deeds spread to the Inca empire, which could give the Aztecs a run for their money. The Incas will then know exactly what kind of people the Spainards are, and then form ambush parties and such.

Then the Incas can re-conquer the Aztec Empire, then reform into a new American Empire of sorts.

The beauty of the thing is that I could RP something as simple as an scout party that witnesses the atrocities that the Spainards commit aganist the Aztecs, then quietly slip back to their Incan lands to report what the Spainards have done, then take things from there.

I never RP here. I often have a look and read threads but since I started I have never joined in because I can never work out what thread belongs to what earth, who knows who, which nations exist together etc. etc. I wouldn't want my nation to be in a separate Earth, it is an imaginary place but I find this forum to confusing and closed in on itself to find a way to join in.
Just my opinion for what it is worth as someone who has been massively put off II by all the earths.

Example. That's what I was doing. Arguing with me about it and claiming "That's not the way to do it" doesn't forward the point.
You missed by point, as I was not stating that it was not the way to do it (and period), but rather I was stating that it shouldn't be said as the standard way to do it. Really though, it still depends on what both sides want and what technologies both sides have. Thus, there's no standard way to do it as you claim, as in the OOC pre-planning for different kinds of RP, flexibility is more important than going by a "standard" method to solve all problems. What's the point of going into an RP when it provides an OOCly-unfair advantage (meaning, one side was OOCly granted more "freedom" with their technology, equipment, and/or capabilities) to one of the two sides?

Kreynoria']And still, no one rebutts it because its too good a point.

Actually, it's a poorly constructed point that doesn't make much sense. Issues like that have always been a problem regardless of the 'multi Earth' thing, it's just something you have to either deal with or ignore.

By the way, what the heck is up with the [NS] tags I'm seeing around?

You missed by point, as I was not stating that it was not the way to do it (and period), but rather I was stating that it shouldn't be said as the standard way to do it. Really though, it still depends on what both sides want and what technologies both sides have. Thus, there's no standard way to do it as you claim, as in the OOC pre-planning for different kinds of RP, flexibility is more important than going by a "standard" method to solve all problems. What's the point of going into an RP when it provides an OOCly-unfair advantage (meaning, one side was OOCly granted more "freedom" with their technology, equipment, and/or capabilities) to one of the two sides?

You have to understand that if a player very knowledgable with technology, techno-babble, "How-it-works", etc. RP's invading or any aggressive action (terrorism, diplomacy, etc.) aganist an Average-Joe player like myself who doesn't understand most of techno-babble in storefronts and equipment on hardware like planes / tanks / etc...

That would be unfair to the Average-Joe player, forcing him / her to "nerd-up" by spending hours researching technologies on Goggle.com or other search engines, just so that the Average-Joe can fend off the Techno-Player without resorting to IGNORES and the like.

This is essentially my whole problem with the technology stuff in NS.

2-3) In RL, the technologically inferior Abyssinians laid a beating to the Italians, so it IS possible.
You, like Sharina, have ignored the points I actually made and instead answered the point that you wanted me to make. I didnt say "OMGZZz but t3h teckz0r difference u r PWNZED" I said that in doing that Sharina would be using OOC historical knowledge that the RPed character wouldnt know anything about for IC gain. Which is bad RP.

:headbang:The computer automatically put the damn tag around my name, I wish i could get rid of it.


And no, Earth II has no problems of that sort. We have MAPS that show clearly where everyone is. We have a DEFENCES SHEET where everyone can post number and distribution of forces. We use REAL-WORLD GEOGRAPHY so we know what terrain is like. We don't GODMODE for fear of being ejected from Earth II. Conflicts have a REASONABLE number of participants, without being a 30-nation dogpile. I think multiple Earths, especially when constructed as well as EII, are an excellent solution to these problems.

This is what, the fifteenth topic discussing multiple Earths?

1. I'm not one of those Earth Series players who is adamant about "CLOSED RP!". The ones you are probably thinking of is Earth II by Layatreb and his "No outside Earth II RP'ing or you get kicked out" policy.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Our policy is not to say that you cannot RP outside of Earth II, hell we encourage outside play. What our policy is is that if you are in Earth II you are part of no other Earth's. This does not include the general NS play. This means no Earth III, IV, XIII, XX, etc. Earth II is not closed either, anyone can join, so long as Earth II is their only Earth. That's our policy. By the way it is Layarteb.

You were removed from Earth II because after we budged on the no multiple Earth thing and allowed people to have land in multiple Earths if they already had land there you went ahead and fully exploited it, started Earth III, and essentially slapped me and Colodia in the face so we booted you, still sore about that or have you finally moved on?

I'd also like to make a statement about Earth II: I personally understand the "no other Earths" policy because Earth II was originally designed to give people shut out of Earth I a chance to claim an Earth nation. It's also morphed into this rule where Earth II nations can't make claims in other Earths, but *shurgs* I'll live with it. Nothing, however, is preventing Earth II nations from RPing outside of it- just not making claims elsewhere. It is, I think, the only thing I don't really like about Earth II but other than that it's a well-run Earth that's fun to RP in and one where I wouldn't trade my experiences for anything else.

See he gets it. It's not hard to understand. Thank you RomeW.

Fair enough, I wasnt mainly talking about them. But do they exclude people who dont have territory? Im not sure... I think they might. And in all hoensty, that was something that Layarteb made up. It was never intended to be like that when Earth II was first made, and Earth I has never been like that.

1. How can you RP on an Earth you aren't part of? It's not easy, that's why we allow non-Earth II people to play as mercenary groups, revolutionary groups, guerillas, terrorists, etc. whatever they desire. So it's not as closed as you think.

2. The no-multiple Earth rule was originally Yreffej's because of Earth I, Earth II being created to give a place to those people who never got any land in Earth I because it was full. We just carried it over and enforced it.

******************************

Earth "X" is a game within a game. Who cares about science, possibility, parallel dimensions, etc. If you don't like it, don't join one. It's fun, learn how to have fun! If you like the idea, join one, try it out. Otherwise don't join and ignore it, quit the useless whining it just clogs up server space as this topic has been far beaten to death, and get over it.

It seems to me the people that whine the most are the ones who were either removed from an Earth, weren't allowed to join and Earth, or can't join an Earth and they feel the need to cry because they were left out of the group. It's like that kid in elementry school who was never picked for the team or always the last picked and only because the teacher made them pick him. That's what all this whining and crying is like.

Bravo Lay, you put it 1,000,000,000,000... times better than i did.

You missed by point, as I was not stating that it was not the way to do it (and period), but rather I was stating that it shouldn't be said as the standard way to do it. Really though, it still depends on what both sides want and what technologies both sides have. Thus, there's no standard way to do it as you claim, as in the OOC pre-planning for different kinds of RP, flexibility is more important than going by a "standard" method to solve all problems. What's the point of going into an RP when it provides an OOCly-unfair advantage (meaning, one side was OOCly granted more "freedom" with their technology, equipment, and/or capabilities) to one of the two sides?

Alright, I was unclear - I'm attempting to show Sharina one method of discussion before RP. And I've played MT v FT (FT very limited forces) which turned out to be rather fun. So "What's the Point" is "To have fun".

There is no standard method - but discussion beforehand is a good way to go.

You have to understand that if a player very knowledgable with technology, techno-babble, "How-it-works", etc. RP's invading or any aggressive action (terrorism, diplomacy, etc.) aganist an Average-Joe player like myself who doesn't understand most of techno-babble in storefronts and equipment on hardware like planes / tanks / etc...

That would be unfair to the Average-Joe player, forcing him / her to "nerd-up" by spending hours researching technologies on Goggle.com or other search engines, just so that the Average-Joe can fend off the Techno-Player without resorting to IGNORES and the like.

This is essentially my whole problem with the technology stuff in NS.

...to which my response would be "Talk ENGLISH in OOC and lets work this out so it's sensible and fun for both sides."

Alright, this thread caught my eye and I was glancing through it when I spotted my ST-29 being mentioned... Now... After reading all of this stuff, I must first say that I have NEVER utilized buckyball armor in ANY of my designs. Never! It was on the ST-29A1 becuase of Doomingsland, I used a whole different armor, evident in the later ST-29E, ST-29K, and ST-29K2. I have always disagreed with the buckyball concept, cost, and utilization and prefer more conventional armor which costs far less and in some cases, provides far more protection than it ever could, assuming you could get it to even work in an armor.


And remember, the ST-29A1 had fundamental flaws, HENCE THREE LATER FUCKING VERSIONS [if you can't count here they are: ST-29E1 Export Variant; ST-29K (original all-ARSB variant); ST-29K2 (Updated/Refined all-ARSB variant)]. The ST-29A1, I will admit, was like a moving fortress, it was OVERLOADED. Hence, the initial ST-29E1 then the following variants created solely for my use which solved most of the ST-29A1s problems. If you buy the tank, and there is something on it you do not like, change it, I have always prided myself on the fact I let my customers tinker with my designs, go ahead, you don't like the cannon, change it. DNI sucks, change it. AERA? Change it! Its not a static piece of machinery.

The tank has a silent operating mode, where it can operate using battery power, HOWEVER, it is not completely silent, you do not always have to take things literally [I said it was completely silent to add emphasis, use logic and reason to understand that my tank is not surrounded by a non-sound permiable barrier]. The system can not operate forever, only for a handful of minutes, but just enough to sneak into a position and await for your opponent to move in, then providing just enough power to squeeze off the first shot. Then you have to start up the old diesels to continue.


DNI... Yes, the technology is POSSIBLE [people can operate computers with their brains alone now; my tech is a little more complicated but certainly doable]. That is a tech where I will gladly change it, it really makes NO difference in an RP, either way they're gonna see the same information, do the same things, but the DNI will do it about a quarter of a second faster, it just saves space on the tank, and if another player won't accept it in an RP, I'll gladly revert to conventional systems. The only reason I use it, is because, I'm operating on a slightly different time-line, different things happen, tech in some areas got accelerated, and we ended up at the DNI. It is not perfect, I have said before, and will say it again, it results in paralysis, uncontrollable seizures, epilepsy, and brain damage in some receivers, which is bad, and I still don't understand why I did start using DNI in the first place [for vehicles any ways]. However, as time goes on, its being refined to the point where side-effects are minimal [nausea].


The ST-29K=Invulnerable. No. I'd sure wish so, but no. Never. You might think so, but then you don't consider the tank. It has flaws, which can be discerned from its specifications and what-not. Otherwise, if you can't, I'd be happy to oblige, I have told many of its flaws, and how to defeat it. Furthermore, most NS equipment today cannot be defeated by simply flinging something at it [except nukes... or really, really big missiles], you have to use some sort of strategy or tactics to defeat them, as armour and armament technology continues to grow more advanced, new tactics must be developed, there is rarely a simple solution to a problem.


ST-29's cost... I will admit, I am not very good at figuring out the cost, and that is evident in all of my designs... They're either very expensive or bordering on dollar store. I'm sorry if I can't come up with a truly representative cost, but does it seriously matter? Just because I'm six million USD off doesn't mean the person who was going to buy it was going to have a drastically reduced order, in fact, they'd most likely be the same, regardless of cost.


The ST-29, tech-wank? Please... Enough of that. I can't help it if you can't understand the ST-29, read the condensed specifications if you want, it doesn't list the armament or armour but I have big bolded headers which show you where to read. All you have to do is see the ST-29 weighs xx tons, goes xx mph fast, has a 120mm ETC/DGA/ETMAS cannon, and armour. "Well, a little on the heavy side, but the armour's good, cannon's good... Hmm... Well, Praetonia's is about the same, a little lighter, I'll go with his, after-all it does have manual emergency equipment to move and fire the main gun, the ST-29 doesn't." Remember, you have the power to ignore entire chunks of its specifications, if it confuses you, move on... I have it listed it has a 120mm ETC cannon, at the very worst understand it as that. I have its armour listed, at the very least read that "it has ERA, close-in defense system, and extensive armour, must be somewhat good, eh? Powerplant, eh, who needs to read about that or the systems... DNI, eh, I'll go with the conventional digital systems. Other, hmm... Oh, silent running, that might be nice in some cases, of course it can't be completely silent but it'd still allow it to move up to a closer range. General specifications, a tad heavy, nice speed, range is a little bad... Cost, oooh... I'll think about it, alot of writing but it looks to be a decent tank..." There's a reason why I provide headers and condensed general specifications...

Also, for fuck's sake, I put the God-damn time into that thing, and not to get it labeled as tech-wank and fucking ignored. I respect your opinions, and I expect to get it, but don't fucking ignore it and especially don't appreciate it being labeled as tech-wank, tell me what's wrong with it. You can't call things tech-wank because they exceed you, if you had an engineer inform you of the technical specifications of the M1 Abrams [which would sound generally familiar to what you might read in my design threads] and its equipment and systems, would you yell at him about "Its a tech-wank, that word is too long... IT can't exist... I don't understand any of it! IGNORED! You can't make these things so I can't understand them... I'm ignoring you and this tech-wank." Seriously, people like me, Tyrandis, Layarteb, and who-ever else you label as a tech-wanker put work into our designs, actual work, and do not throw together specifications [I've done it a few times, and I usually end up remaking it after I realize how bad it sucks]. If you design stuff, respect them for it, unless its complete garbage that someone threw together, I see designs all the time, I don't care if they're underpowered, have too big of an armament, that person put work into it [in some cases not, you can tell] and I respect them for it. I get labeled as a tech-wanker because I simply went into detail, explaining things so there wouldn't be any questions. Right.


Me and my tech in an RP... I will not drown you in 'techno-babble' [I may use some, such as to explain how a certain feature works and its potential effects], I will not force you to accept more damage. I have always allowed concessions, whether it is right or wrong in RP, and I will continue to do so.


And finally... Vastiva... What the fuck happened? Seriously, I want to know, back in the day [NATO], you were one of the coolest guys around, I will admit that, and, I'd like to think we were on good terms [you did, after-all, buy a number of my equipment]. But then, I don't know what happened, and I got cut off from just about everyone I knew from then, and I want to know what the fuck for?




Sorry, if I went a bit overboard [and rambled on, I do that alot; this may make no sense as I continually go back and rewrite things as I think about them], I'm a tad angry. And sorry for the language and cluttering up the thread, I don't appreciate it when people make assumptions about the technology and equipment that I designed and worked on without at least talking with me and allowing me to tell them about it and set aside any misconceptions. I also do not appreciate it when my technology, or anyone else's for that matter, is labeled as tech-wank, its not our fault that you can't understand it or take the twenty seconds to type up a quick TG about it to any of us. I love to hear feedback, the problem is I don't get much of it, because you'd rather sit in the backfield and chatter to yourselves about its problems...


ADDED:

Damn, that's a long post, see what I mean when I ramble, although now I'm not angry any more [I'm never angry for very long].

Soviet Bloc, do me a BIG favor.

Read over Doomingsland's version. Just that one - no other - and have no other information at all about the tank other then what he puts there.

Do NOT add your "it's advanced tech but..." descripitions in there; we're not talking about a "and I built it with flaws, simulating real life" description.

Just what he wrote, as he wrote it.

I'll wait.



Alright, you back? Now, can you see the wanky bits in there - let's say, the ones I described? Thank you. No, I'm not talking about the hybrid engine, the ETC gun, or most of the tank as it stands. I picked out systems which are wank (Buckyball Armor comes immediately to mind), then used the tank itself as an example in a "See, Sharina, if you don't like or don't understand something, you can talk it out with the other person" example.

My [personal] "I hate this" with the tank is the buckyball armor. It's not possible, and I don't accept buckyball armor. Yours don't have buckyball armor, neat.

As far as drift goes - I've made no effort to ignore you or otherwise avoid you, we just don't move in the same circles. This hasn't done anything to our relations insofar as I'm concerned.

Finally, back to the tank - ALL I've seen so far is Doomingsland's version. Period, that's it. Alright? Good, now, back to the discussion at hand...

You're welcome Layarteb.

You, like Sharina, have ignored the points I actually made and instead answered the point that you wanted me to make. I didnt say "OMGZZz but t3h teckz0r difference u r PWNZED" I said that in doing that Sharina would be using OOC historical knowledge that the RPed character wouldnt know anything about for IC gain. Which is bad RP.

My bad then, and you're right.

Alright, alright, I can understand that... But, I'd expect some one to not shoot off right away without checking [You had to have seen the ST-29E1 thread, at the very least... And the ST-29K threads should be easy to find on the IM], but I can understand it. I look back at the original ST-29A1 and slightly cringe. Otherwise, I never built it intentionally to have flaws, never to give it an achilles heel, they were sacrifices. And most never came to me until after the development and refinement process [after the ST-29K], when people began asking what its weaknesses were, then I went through it and found them, and I'm sure I'll find more as time progresses.


As for the rest of my 'rant', most of it refers to bits and pieces of criticism I've received or 'picked up' from here and there and which no one seems to have brought to my formal attention. I'm merely addressing a number of generalizations about the ST-29 including the feasability of the DNI, its supposed 'invulnerability', and what-ever else I covered.


Otherwise, if you're referring to Doom's version of the tank [which utilized the buckyball armor], its the M-29A1 ( ;) ), to save for further confusion.

Alright, alright, I can understand that... But, I'd expect some one to not shoot off right away without checking [You had to have seen the ST-29E1 thread, at the very least... And the ST-29K threads should be easy to find on the IM], but I can understand it. I look back at the original ST-29A1 and slightly cringe. Otherwise, I never built it intentionally to have flaws, never to give it an achilles heel, they were sacrifices. And most never came to me until after the development and refinement process [after the ST-29K], when people began asking what its weaknesses were, then I went through it and found them, and I'm sure I'll find more as time progresses.


As for the rest of my 'rant', most of it refers to bits and pieces of criticism I've received or 'picked up' from here and there and which no one seems to have brought to my formal attention. I'm merely addressing a number of generalizations about the ST-29 including the feasability of the DNI, its supposed 'invulnerability', and what-ever else I covered.


Otherwise, if you're referring to Doom's version of the tank [which utilized the buckyball armor], its the M-29A1 ( ;) ), to save for further confusion.

Soviet Bloc, I hadn't realized you designed the original ST-29. I thought Doomingsland designed the whole thing.

I apologize for slamming your tank, Soviet Bloc, as it was intended for Doomingsland's version of your tank. When I ecounter these kinds of things I get completely overwhelmed and most of the time I just give up trying to figure out the tech's involved in the tank or plane or whatever.

I like to use simple easy-to-understand tech's in my designs, hardware, and equipment to help not just myself, but other people to understand how my stuff works without much of an hassle or a necessary multi-hour trip to Google.com.

...to which my response would be "Talk ENGLISH in OOC and lets work this out so it's sensible and fun for both sides."

I am perfectly willing to do that, I've been saying that all this time.

"If technology isn't too uber-complicated, I can work out responses / losses with the other player. If the player prefers to hide behind his uber-tech for easy victory, I give up or IGNORE them."

That's essentially one of the major points I've been trying to repeat to Omz222 and others in this thread.

You, like Sharina, have ignored the points I actually made and instead answered the point that you wanted me to make. I didnt say "OMGZZz but t3h teckz0r difference u r PWNZED" I said that in doing that Sharina would be using OOC historical knowledge that the RPed character wouldnt know anything about for IC gain. Which is bad RP.

Three points, Praetonia.

First, we know our history naturally, so we automatically know the "gist" of what happened in the "future" of the ancient civilization in question. It would be difficult to place ourselves in their shoes, and forget all about our history (Our past, their future).

Second, I can RP alternate history, such as having an Inca scout party observe what the Spainards are doing to Aztecs, then have the Incas prepare for the Spanish invasion of Inca lands. Then have my Incas ambush the Spaniards and win the war through "hide-and-seek" in the rainforests and mountains. In our real history, the Inca scouting party may have got lost, got killed by animals, Spanish found them out, or any number of possible scenarios to prevent them from informing Incas about what really happened.

Third, in RP, sometimes we have to suspend perfect realism to make for a good alternate history RP. NS Earth is a perfect example of "suspend realism" for good RP.

You mean suspend realism so that you can win despite such a victory making no real sense? I dont really see how that is any better or worse than techwanking, it's just done differently and with less effort.

You mean suspend realism so that you can win despite such a victory making no real sense? I dont really see how that is any better or worse than techwanking, it's just done differently and with less effort.

What I meant by that would be something like this...

A few players decide to start an new Earth based off Alternate History. In this Earth, the Aztecs and / or Incas defeated the Spanish and fought off subsquent small scale European incursions. Then the Aztecs and Incas discover the secret of gunpowder from analyzing the guns they took from dead Spainards and Europeans.

Fast Forward to 1800's and 1900's. The Aztecs and / or Incas have become a considerably strong empire in the Americas. The USA did form, but it would be a weaker version of itself, without Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, etc.

For this RP to happen, we must RP a "point-of-divergence" where the Aztecs and Incas did something opposite of what they did in our RL history. It could be something as major as a ruler saying "no" instead of "yes", or something as small as a scouting party choosing to take the high route instead of the low route.

Additionally, we cannot just forget or disregard our past history which happens to be the Aztec / Inca future. You might as well ask yourself not to breathe, think, or keep your eyes open during an sneeze.


This is what I mean by "suspension of realism".

Your arguments become increasingly silly....

Firstly, what does alternate history etc etc have to do with NS? NS is meant to be where you make your own nation. I agree, you can do what you want in RP terms, but there doesnt seem much point because you're effectively just making another RP community / RPing by yourself which is basically just writing a book.

And wth:

Additionally, we cannot just forget or disregard our past history which happens to be the Aztec / Inca future. You might as well ask yourself not to breathe, think, or keep your eyes open during an sneeze.
I really dont know what to make of that... what do alternate futures have to do with RP? Or NS at all? And how can you disregard something that hasnt happened?

Arguing with you is really making me confused.

Praetonia... in Sharina's "alternate history", the Aztecs and Incans destroyed the Spanish invaders. Ergo, her version of reality has no Florida or Mexico as we know it, but different civilizations in those areas.

It's really that simple.

And as this is a game, we can assume that exists when she's involved in an RP, even if it is "and on this Central America..." suspension of belief.

Onward, folks. This one is looking a mite... ripe.

Your arguments become increasingly silly....

Firstly, what does alternate history etc etc have to do with NS? NS is meant to be where you make your own nation. I agree, you can do what you want in RP terms, but there doesnt seem much point because you're effectively just making another RP community / RPing by yourself which is basically just writing a book.

Alternate history can be easily applied to NS. In this Aztec / Inca alternate history where they destroyed the Spanish invaders, these two civilizations merged to create the nation of "Sharina" then I RP as Sharina from that point onwards.

Then I can either make an alternate history Earth where there is a USA, but a weaker one (without Texas, the Mid-West, and West Coast) and have a NS player RP that USA. Ditto for a possibly altered Europe (Spain lost power + prestige + no gold wealth), and so on.

Alternatively, these alternate history can be the backstory of how a NS nation came into being.


I really dont know what to make of that... what do alternate futures have to do with RP? Or NS at all? And how can you disregard something that hasnt happened?

Arguing with you is really making me confused.

Refer to my point above. In this case, the Aztec / Inca empire merged into a nation by the name of "Sharina". Then Sharina moves into MT times along with the rest of the world, including a weak "half-USA", Spain-less Europe, and so forth.

NS players can still RP as their own NS nations in that particular world. A NS nation can RP as a France that conquered a weak gold-less Spain, and merge Spain and France into a NS nation.

Hope that clears things up.

EDIT: Arrgh... double post.

OOC: On that note - Sharina, we want to set up a carob and chocolate trade with you. Soon, please. :D

OOC: On that note - Sharina, we want to set up a carob and chocolate trade with you. Soon, please. :D

OOC: Gimme the link and I'll be there. :D

OOC: Gimme the link and I'll be there. :D

Ask, and ye shall receive.... (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=425081) :D

OOC: I don't see the big deal so much with multiple earths. If some folks want to rp in a certain manner and agree to be bound by the rules made up, then so what? I don't care if I see the boards "clogged" with multiple earth threads. They aren't a part of my rp universe. Big deal. I think it is arrogant for someone to suggest that those threads should go off site.

Unless you own the damn NS server and set policy, live with it. We should be happy that NS is free for crying out loud.

Interesting way it has been put by you.
Observing most you are.

Clubs and clicks have we on NS.

Mere formal groupings the earths are.

Members of many groups, some of us are.

(Back to normal speech).

The earths are more like clubs or groups of people, who (as I have noticed) tend to know each other pretty well.

But you don't need an earth to be a group. It is unavoidable that NS is divided into groups and divide the world among their members.

Basically,

(back to Yoda speak, ;) )

correct the OP is.

Each earth has a claims thread listing who owns what. This has never been a problem.


I agree here... the earths need to go because they are fragmenting II into lots of small groups which lack enough experienced players to be truely fun. "A Modern World" and "World at War" also have a lot to answer for.


This sounds very NS clique-like, which is basically the same as earths in terms of fragmentation except that under this system you dont have the one earth advantage of actually being able to see where everyone is on a map.


This seems extermely confusing. I agree that Earths should go, but only to be replaced with a larger II forum (like there used to be) where everyone RPs in the same "universe".

Sorry if I misinterpretted and I apologise for the shortish post... I'm rather tired.

It is not possible for everyone to be rping in the same universe otherwise you will always have ooc flamewars over who has what.

It is not possible for everyone to be rping in the same universe otherwise you will always have ooc flamewars over who has what.
What? Well I own Praetonia (top right):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Nightbane/Haven.png

Surely no one else would claim to own Praetonia, now would they? It's only earths that can cause those arguments, although in my experience I havent seen it happen.

Lucky for you.

I have seen many ooc flamewars over territory in rps that weren't on some earth.

That's why when I rpd in the general NS world, I was always vague about the exact location of my nation. Avoids such dumb arguments. Though, recently I've begun rping my nation as the western half of the US and part of northern Mexico.

Care to provide any links? I bet that all of them involve "Earth I" (or whatever it's called) which is, believe it or not, an earth.

Well, I only read the first 31 posts so far and I agree with almost all of them.
That's why I temp. took my Earth IV out of circulation to completely overhaul it and create a seperate forum for it.
One problem, I didn't see mentioned, (maybe some one brought it up after post 31), is the fact that on any earth, there is a limited supply of nations. So while I was doing EIV, I did something different. I mean why should the US be the only nation that gets seperated into seperate nations. There are other big nations out there too. Like Russia. Russia is actually a federation of about 20 republics. But in every earth I've seen, people claim the whole of Russia.
When I'm done, E IV will have room for at least a thousand NSers. Though I will have to democratize control of it in order for it to survive since it looks like I wont' be around for much longer.

Care to provide any links? I bet that all of them involve "Earth I" (or whatever it's called) which is, believe it or not, an earth.

Do you know a way to get into the old prejolt forums? Though I don't remember the exact titles of the threads.

I remember one where one guy said "i'm Israel". Then 50 other people jumped in saying "no I'm Israel". And the whole thing turned into a mass flamewar.

I remember those, when I played as Canan I had a few problems with this as I placed my nation in parts of Isreal, Egypt, and pretty much all of Palestine.

Now however I am a fictional naiton about 300 miles west, southwest of Georgia in the Atlantic so I have little trouble with anyone trying to claim that is where their nation is.