NationStates Jolt Archive

IPO-145 Hoplite II - Phalanx MBT

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/Praetonia/PhalanxII.png

Introduction and History

Following a string of largely unsuccessful tank designs, Imperial Praetonian Ordinance was contracted to design a new Main Battle Tank which would be able to defeat any other tank in the world with a reasonable success rate, and be able to destroy any real world MBT with little to no chance of a successful return strike. For the first time in Praetonian history, a truely world-class non-naval design has been produced - the Hoplite II - Phalanx MBT.

The vehicle itself bares little resemblence to the previous Hoplite I, with the primary and secondary armament, turret layout and armour scheme being changed, as well as a comprehensive new range of systems being added. According to IPO analysts, there is no tank design on the face of the earth which can simply brush a Phalanx aside, and precious little which can beat it.

Armament - Offensive

The offensive armament of the Phalanx is a single IPO 'Praesidium' 120mm ETC Cannon. The weapon is 56 calibres long, offering increased range and accuracy over contemporary weapons of a smaller calibre. As with all ETC guns, the 'Praesidium' ignites the propellent of a shell using a dot of plasma, which provides for a more efficient burn. The 'Praesidium' provides a 25% increase in muzzle velocity over a conventional gun, allowing a 120mm shell from the gun to be equal to a conventional gun of calibre 140mm or greater.

The 'Praesidium' goes one step further than its contemporaries, utilising Electro-Magnetic Rifling (EMR) to allow the smoothbore gun all the advantages of a rifled gun, such as increased range and accuracy, with none of the usual disadvantages such as reduced muzzle velocity for APFS rounds and increased barrel wear. It also allows the gun to fire the more simply made APFS rounds over the more complex APFSDS rounds. The system is not, however, required for the operation of the gun and can be disabled to save power. The gun can then fire APFSDS rounds from a reserve ammunition bin in the rear of the turret alongside the regular multitude of shell types.

The gun is also equipped with a power saving system, which converts some of the force of the recoil of the gun into electrical energy, thereby countering to some extent the power requirements of the EMR.

Although it is classified as a defensive weapon, the tank's fire control system is capable of linking the operation of the 'Praesidium' and the 20mm turret-mounted autocannon to defeat ERA blocs. The system can be configured to have the 20mm cannon fire a short burst of ammunition a second or less before the main gun fires. The 20mm rounds will not only detonate any ERA fixed to the tank, but will also render NxRA and Electric RA spent over the target area, and deform the outer layers of armour leading to greater penetrative effect when the primary shell hits.

The 'Praesidium' is equipped with a carosel auto-loader with 20 rounds. The gun can achieve a 'sprint' firign rate of 18 rounds / minute, although this will rapidly run down the battery if EMR is used, and cause the overheat. It will also prompt a higher instance of jamming in the autoloader. This mode of fire is, however, useful in a tight situation. The autoloader is capable of a sustained rate of fire of 12 rounds / minute, in line with autoloaders in service with other armies. The carosel system allows the gun to cycle between different types of shells in different positions on the carosel. A further 30 rounds are stored below the turret ring.

The tank is designed to support infantry in combined arms operations as well as take on enemy tanks, and so the vehicle is equipped with a bustle-mounted 81mm mortar with an autoloader. The mortar is capable of firing up to 15 rounds / minute either aimed by GPS co-ordinates called in by infantry, or relayed via a HQ.

Armament - Defensive

The primary defencive armament of the Phalanx is located in the cupola turret, which contains a 20mm autocannon and two 5.56mm chainguns. The gun can be controlled manually by the commander, or can be set to be controlled automatically by the tank in responce to threats picked up by the Phalanx's sensors. Varying levels of automation can also be set.

The 20mm cannon is equipped with a dual-feed system, allowing both KE penetrators and HE shells to be fired consecutively without need to replace the ammunition belt. The 20mm cannon is effective against infantry, emplaced positions and soft-skinned vehicles, as well as aircraft. The turret is linked closely to the tank's sensors and is capable of quickly intercepting incoming helicopters with the 20mm cannon and ATGWs and even shells with the twin 5.56mm chainguns, with varying degrees of success.

A 12.7mm heavy machinegun is mounted co-axial to the main gun. It is capable of challenging soft-skinned vehicles as well as infantry and low flying aircraft. The gun is equipped with 1,500 rounds of ammunition. Some thought has been given to the removal of this weapon, as the cupola turret can provide the same light-fire base.

In addition, the commander can cause the detonation of one or more specific ERA blocks to break up infantry swarms or held the tank break through a heavily defended infanty position. This is rarely advisable, but in an emergency it can save the tank from an overwhleming infantry attack.

Protection - Passive Defence Systems

In addition to the above described "tank-CIWS" system, the vehicle is equipped with a variety of passive defence systems. The camoflauge paint of the vehicle is of an industrially produced extremely dark matt, which absorbs much of the light emmitted by enemy laser rangefinders, seriously depleting their effects at long range.

The vehicle is also equipped with 12 "smoke" grenades which project a thick cloud of particles into the surrounding environment. As well as obscuring the vehicle from visible sight, the particles will also refract and otherwise block or distort laser beams, rendering laser rangefinders useless against the vehicle whilst covered by the smokescreen. The vehicle can also produce smoke by injecting diesel into its exhaust manifolds.

In addition to this, the tank can be equipped (although is not as standard fit) with a significant array of electronics warfare equipment, including radar jamming, radio jamming and IR distruption equipment. The tank can also be fitted with 'noise-warfare' equipment which can cause significant distress to nearby infantry. Of course, using this is not a good idea in combined arms operations.

Protection - Armour

The Phalanx would not be complete without a powerful armour package, and IPO does not disappoint. The Phalanx is practically immune to HEAT warheads (not that anyone uses them anymore anyway) and is extremely resistance to APFSDS. The tank uses a layer armour scheme as follows:

Outermost layer - Momentum Transfer Armour (MTA). This layer fires a metal bar at an incoming projectile. It is primarily effective against KE. An APFSDS penetrator hit by said metal bar will be deformed, leading to a significant reduction in penetrative capability, and also knocked off course. If it then goes on to hit the armour, it will be at an angle, again reducing effectiveness.

2nd Layer - Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA). This layer consists of ERA of the Kontakt-5 variety. It is extremely effective against both HEAT warheads and (less effective) KE penetrators.

3rd Layer - Non-Explosive Reactive Armour (NxRA). This layer greatly reduces the effect of HEAT warheads. Its effects are significantly reduced against KE warheads.

4th Layer - Chobham with a tungsten honeycomb frame. One of the strongest armours known to man, chobham combined with a solid titanium honeycomb frame is extremely effective against all tpyes of warheads.

5th Layer - Ballistic Ceramics. Ballistic ceramics are extremely resistant to heat and kinetic energy, meaning that this layer will either stop or drastically reduce the effects of both HEAT metal jets and KE penetrators.

6th Layer - Depleted Uranium. Depleted Uranium is an extremely dense material, and abosrbs a great deal of kinetic energy in penetrating.

7th Layer - Ballistic Ceramics.

8th Layer - Chobham with a tungsten honeycomb frame.

9th Layer - Boronated polycarbons. This is both a stong layer in itself, and a radiation-absorbing layer.

10th Layer - Rubber and kevlar. This layer absorbs any spalling that may otherwise adversely affect the crew and systems.

The approximate RHA armour values are as follows:

Front: 2,050mm (KE) / 2850mm (HEAT)
Side: 1,000mm (KE) / 1,325mm (HEAT)
Rear: 610mm (KE) / 820mm (HEAT)

The armour is of the modular variety, with each individual section being easily replaceable in the event that only a partial penetration is achieved.The vehicle is also hardened against EMP, radiation and is fully sealed against chemical or biological attacks.

The Phalanx comes equipped with a Tank Roof (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/Praetonia/HopliteIIPhalanx-TankRoof.png) which can be attached and detatched as necessary. The tank roof is designed to prematuely detonate top-attack munitions, rendering them useless. It also provides significant protection from aerial attacks with guns or KE missiles. The tank roof features momentum transfer armour, ERA and NxRA, allowing it to stand up to munitions much heavier than its thickness suggests it could. The tank can also be fitted with skirts of a similar makeup along the sides and rear, as well as along the sides and rear of the turret.

In addition to exterior armour, the interior of the vehicle is partitioned so as to seperate the engine and fuel from the crew compartment, and the shells and charges are stored in armoured boxes below the turret ring for additional protection. The autoloader is also armoured to prevent a shell from detonating inside it.

The Phalanx is also designed to be able to retain functionality even if all electronic systems are knocked out. The autoloader is constructed to allow manual loading to take place if its electronics are disabled. The autoloader is also equipped with a manual shell ejection system to clear the barrel, and a small reserve battery to allow the autoloader to load the currently waiting shell and fire it, should power run out. The co-axial machinegun can be used for rangefinding, and the cupola turret also has a mechanical override.

Sensors

The Phalanx is equipped with a wide array of advanced sensors. Firstly, it is equipped with a milimetre band radar dome which scans for threats and possible aerial and land targets. It can also be used as a rangefinder where using a laser rangefinder is inappropriate. The radar can also be used to allow the cupola turret to automatically find and engage targets.

The Phalanx is equipped also with the obligatory laser rangefinder, as well as high-resolution thermal imagers all around the vehicle. This can be used to allow the tank to function even in an NBC environment, and also to feed to commander and his cupola turret with information on the location of nearby infantry.

The vehicle has high-resolution digital cameras dotted around the vehicle embedded in the armour. They are reasonably well protected from random small arms fire, althougha concerted effort to destroy them is very difficult the defend against. These cameras, which have both normal and night-sight modes, provide the crew with an all-round view of the battlefield.

In addition to these cameras, the Phalanx mounts a rotatable periscope-mounted conventional, nightsight and thermal camera which can be deployed when the vehicle is faced with obstacles. The camera can be withdrawn into an armoured control box on the right hand side of the turret bustle, providing it with relatively dependable protection from most threats when not deployed. The periscope-camera can also allow the vehicle to navigate whilst snorkling.

The Phalanx can deploy a teathered balloon from within the vehicle, which is stored in an armoured box outside. The balloon features a small radar anttena as well as a thermal imager and conventional camera. The balloon can be pulled back down using a motor inside the box and theoretically restored for a second use.

Also loaded onto the Phalanx as standard are a multitude of targetting detection systems including passive radar which will detect when the tank is being targetted and attempt to triangulate the position of the offending enemy vehicle. The turret can be configured to automatically home in on enemy targetting attempts and load a shell if the gun is not alreayd engaged in some other work.

Mobility

The Phalanx is powered by a 1850hp diesel-electric hybrid motor which can drive it at speeds up to a theoretical 32mph across country. The engine is much more fuel-efficient than gas-turbines used on tanks such as the US Abrams, and so gives the vehicle a much longer effective operational range. The vehicle can switch solely to battery power, which eliminates the sound of the engine.

The vehicle can deploy the electric motor to traverse a river without using a snorkle, although this is not recommended. Whilst using a snorkle, the diesel engine can achieve a theoretical maximum of 12mph whilst crossing a river up to 6m deep.

General Specifications:

Length: 9m (hull); 14m (inc. gun)
Width: 3.9m
Height: 2.60m (turret roof); 3m (cupola turret roof)
Ground Clearance: 0.5m
Combat Weight: 72,000kg
Crew: 3 (Commander / Gunner; Gunner; Driver)
Main Armament: 1x 120mm/64 'Praesidium' Smoothbore Gun with EM Rifling
Ammunition Stowage: 54 rounds
Secondary Armament: 1x 12.7mm machinegun (co-axial); 1x 20mm cannon (cupola turret); 2x 5.56mm machineguns (cupola turret); 1x 81mm mortar (turret bustle); 12x smoke grenade launchers
Ammunition Stowage: 1,500x 12.7mm rounds; 1,200x 20mm rounds; 5,000x 5.56mm rounds; 35x 81mm rounds
Engine: 1x IPO 'Jupiter' 1,850bhp diesel-electric hybrid
Theoretical Maximum Speed: 45mph (road); 32mph (cross-country); 12mph (snorkling)
Operational Range: 375 miles
Fording Depth: 2.5m (normal); 6m (snorkle)

Production Cost: $12,000,000
Export Cost: $15,000,000

[OOC: Comments? Criticism? Sales? I spent several hours making this, and it's my first major tank making attempt, so what do you think? I tried to compensate for the heavy armour and gun with quite a slow max speed, is that too much / not enough? All constructive criticism welcome!]

OOC: Looks good Praetonia, it's nice to have som competition for my M-125 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9004387), hopefully they never see combat against each other cause it would be a huge slugfest, I'd buy this tank if I wasn't already selling, oh and just an observation: Your gonna over tax your self trying to keep up with all these new products and storefronts *Hint* *Hint*.

OOC: Looks good Praetonia, it's nice to have som competition for my M-125 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9004387), hopefully they never see combat against each other cause it would be a huge slugfest, I'd buy this tank if I wasn't already selling, oh and just an observation: Your gonna over tax your self trying to keep up with all these new products and storefronts *Hint* *Hint*.
[OOC: Hmmm I know what you mean. Storefronts are a pain, and I hate them mostly. Well, confirming orders at least. And I get what you're hinting at... I'll just go and confirm stuff.]

OOC: lol, just don't kill yourself with all this work (And I'm surprised this only took you a few hours, mine took a month)

And how do you get a smoothbore gun with rifling???

OOC: lol, just don't kill yourself with all this work (And I'm surprised this only took you a few hours, mine took a month)
[OOC: lol, I read the thread about developing it. I prefer to do everything very quickly rather than soreading it out. When I have time, of course.]

OOC: Yeah, it was probably a mistake to get help from 6+ nations, took forever...
But it's done now YAY! And now I'll stop cluttering your thread with OOC comments.

But a few parting comments.
The tank's range is way too low for a diesel electric engine, it should be in the order of 400-450miles
And ditch the 5.56MGs, they ain't gonna do shit, there to weak to hurt helicopters/APCs and some nations have body armor that can withstand that. I'd ditch the 20mm cannon and just go with 2 FN 15.5mm MGs
The speed is way to low it should be around 50mph on-road and round 40mph off road, the tanks not that heavier, it's also slower then a T-125 is.
And use a 135mm ETC cannon, you'll lose some storage space, but ditching the 20mm and the 5.56mm guns will allow you at least 50-55 rounds of 135mm ammo.

Just my $0.02

The tank's range is way too low for a diesel electric engine, it should be in the order of 400-450miles
Thanks. Will update.

And ditch the 5.56MGs, they ain't gonna do shit, there to weak to hurt helicopters/APCs and some nations have body armor that can withstand that.
They'll horribly mess up infantry (they're chainguns, remember, not pistols, and there are two of them. Even if the body armour doesnt buckle under multiple shots (which it should) the person will still be horribly bruised and bleeding internally by the sheer shock of the impact. The other main purpose is to shoot at ATGMs and shells, which they're fine at. They're not for attacking soft-skin vehicles, the 12.7mm and the 20mm are.

I'd ditch the 20mm cannon and just go with 2 FN 15.5mm MGs
Some helicopter are armoured against 15.5mm, and practically all IFVs / APCs are. Except maybe on the front, neither could survive a 20mm APFSDS dart.

The speed is way to low it should be around 50mph on-road and round 40mph off road, the tanks not that heavier, it's also slower then a T-125 is.
And the T-125 has a tech-wanked 4,000bhp engine which I refuse to stoop to. I might raise the speed a bit, but considering how much extra stuff is on this compared to a normal tank (ETC gun, EM rifling, cupola turret, mortar, extra sensors) it seems pretty fair to me.

And use a 135mm ETC cannon, you'll lose some storage space, but ditching the 20mm and the 5.56mm guns will allow you at least 50-55 rounds of 135mm ammo.
I don't need to. The 120mm ETC with EM rifling can destroy anything a 135mm can, and a 135mm would push the weight above the 80 tonne mark, which is really too heavy.

Feel free to come back on any of this, and thanks for the input.

They'll horribly mess up infantry (they're chainguns, remember, not pistols, and there are two of them. Even if the body armour doesnt buckle under multiple shots (which it should) the person will still be horribly bruised and bleeding internally by the sheer shock of the impact. The other main purpose is to shoot at ATGMs and shells, which they're fine at. They're not for attacking soft-skin vehicles, the 12.7mm and the 20mm are.
Ah ok got'cha.

Some helicopter are armoured against 15.5mm, and practically all IFVs / APCs are. Except maybe on the front, neither could survive a 20mm APFSDS dart.
Well, the Apache is tested against 30mm HE and 25mm AP rounds, and most NS helicopters are more armored then that, and most NS APCs will take 20mm rounds from every place against the rear.
And the T-125 has a tech-wanked 4,000bhp engine which I refuse to stoop to. I might raise the speed a bit, but considering how much extra stuff is on this compared to a normal tank (ETC gun, EM rifling, cupola turret, mortar, extra sensors) it seems pretty fair to me.
You don't need a tech wanked 4000hp engine to go 50+mph, with both the battery and the engine running at the same time and a excellent transmission you should be able to reach sprint speeds of 50-52mph, and the 4000hp engine is useless, in combat your never gonna get over 2000hp on the battlefield.

I don't need to. The 120mm ETC with EM rifling can destroy anything a 135mm can, and a 135mm would push the weight above the 80 tonne mark, which is really too heavy.
Most NS tanks are over 80 tons anyway, and a 120mm ETC won't be able to get the range a 135mm can (After 140mm gun range actually decreases), and you probably won't be able to destroy a ST-29 tanks(The newer model).

But other then those things, this should be selling like cheap beer in the first session of an AA meeting. lol

Ah ok got'cha.

Well, the Apache is tested against 30mm HE and 25mm AP rounds, and most NS helicopters are more armored then that, and most NS APCs will take 20mm rounds from every place against the rear.
*looks stunned* An Apache can resist 30mm? I find that somewhat hard to believe. Hmmmm. I imagine it's only over certain places. Some shots into the blades, or the engines would have it down. Good point on the APCs, but if it isn't taken out by the 20mm I can use the main gun. 15.5mm isn't any better than 20mm.

You don't need a tech wanked 4000hp engine to go 50+mph, with both the battery and the engine running at the same time and a excellent transmission you should be able to reach sprint speeds of 50-52mph, and the 4000hp engine is useless, in combat your never gonna get over 2000hp on the battlefield.
The Challenger II does 35mph across country, and it weights 62 tonnes. This weighs an extra 10 tonnes and is slower in line with that fact. I might put it up a bit, but I think that NS tanks are a bit over-powered.

Most NS tanks are over 80 tons anyway, and a 120mm ETC won't be able to get the range a 135mm can (After 140mm gun range actually decreases), and you probably won't be able to destroy a ST-29 tanks(The newer model).
For an ETC gun, the size of the projectile matters very little. The speed does, and according to Chardonay / Verdant Archipelago (who has some kind of physics degree I think) you can get higher muzzle velocities with smaller guns whilst saving weight (80 tonnes will collapse 90% of bridges and you certainly wont get 32mph cross-country with it). According to Doominglsand (user of the ST-29 domestic version and co-designer I believe) a confrontation between a Phalanx and an ST-29 would result largely in a stalemate, so meh.

But other then those things, this should be selling like cheap beer in the first session of an AA meeting. lol
lol. Thanks. I might consider putting a 30mm in the cupola turret and maybe a 125mm (or maybe a 128mm or some other weird diametre to annoy an enemy who's just captured an ammo dump =)) and possibly upping the speed. Thanks for the comments again, and again feel free to reply to any of this.

*looks stunned* An Apache can resist 30mm? I find that somewhat hard to believe. Hmmmm. I imagine it's only over certain places. Some shots into the blades, or the engines would have it down. Good point on the APCs, but if it isn't taken out by the 20mm I can use the main gun. 15.5mm isn't any better than 20mm.
Yes, the main body is tested against 30mm and 20mm rounds, but the tail section is only good against 20mm rounds and less, so if you get a hit on the propellers you should be able to take one down.

The Challenger II does 35mph across country, and it weights 62 tonnes. This weighs an extra 10 tonnes and is slower in line with that fact. I might put it up a bit, but I think that NS tanks are a bit over-powered.
Another point driven home for Praetonia. But remember, this is NS ;)

For an ETC gun, the size of the projectile matters very little. The speed does, and according to Chardonay / Verdant Archipelago (who has some kind of physics degree I think) you can get higher muzzle velocities with smaller guns whilst saving weight (80 tonnes will collapse 90% of bridges and you certainly wont get 32mph cross-country with it). According to Doominglsand (user of the ST-29 domestic version and co-designer I believe) a confrontation between a Phalanx and an ST-29 would result largely in a stalemate, so meh.
True, but if you fire a KE penetrator fast enough it will shatter rather then penetrate the armor, and if you fire a 30mm round with a rail gun (Like the US army is testing) the round actually vaporizes(They have to conduct test in a water tank), faster and smaller isn't always better, a 135mm round going near the velocity of your 120mm round will work better then a 120mm round, and if your talking meteric tons then your right, but I'm talking US tons. And yeah it would end up as a tie, if you were both idiots and sent tanks and infantry in the meatgrinder instead of using TACTICS (Something lacking in NS) but if you use tactics I still believe a ST-29 would win (Of course, I could be wrong)

lol. Thanks. I might consider putting a 30mm in the cupola turret and maybe a 125mm (or maybe a 128mm or some other weird diametre to annoy an enemy who's just captured an ammo dump =)) and possibly upping the speed. Thanks for the comments again, and again feel free to reply to any of this. If you use a 128mm round tell me, and a 30mm would probably work better to although not that much.

Put me down for 10,000 of these impressive vehicles, Prae

OOC- *offers his hand for a hand-shake* Congratulations, Praetonia, that's one helluva tank. In your description, it states "there is no tank design on the face of the earth which can simply brush a Phalanx aside, and precious little which can beat it." All I can say is, damn true, I can't think of a single vehicle which could 'simply brush it aside', as this thing is on par and exceeds most anything out there. I can say with a certain amount of confidence that on an even battle field, one against one, an ST-29E [or ST-29K] versus the Phalanx [Hoplite II], that the decision is effectively in the air.

And all I can say is 'Wow' a ten-layer system of armor. Damn.

About the only thing I can say could be changed is the fact you have most of your secondary weaponry in the miniature turret, I'd say have at least a conventional 12.7mm be seperated and be capable of being operated by a crewman within the turret, providing anti-infantry defense [without having to use the cupola mini-turret thing] especially in an urban setting when the main gun is being used rarely.

And finally, I must applaud you on some simple solutions to problems, I love the tank roof idea [although it wouldn't help much against a top-attack kinetic kill munition and probably would still result in plenty of damage to the tank, but it is better than the tank itself receiving the brunt of damage] and the premature ERA detonation system [where the 20mm fires moments before the main gun to detonate the ERA] is awesome, I might have to steal it, nah, I wouldn't.


Otherwise, beautiful vehicle, I have a newly developed detection system that I would be willing to share, but only if you have an interest, otherwise I'll keep it all for myself [hehehe] as I continue work on, what I hope, will be my greatest tank design, I'll see how that turns out...

OOC: About Apaches capability to take hit, I've heard that it has been taken down by Kalashnikovs in Iraq... Well, they propably aimed at propeller, but that makes is somewhat meaningless to talk about armouring it, doesn't it?
Im far from expert on the issue though. Anyways, I have to thank Praetonia for (once again) coming out with one these superb designs. Compact, easy-to-read and with an nice picture. I can't do nothing but praise :) .

IC: Madnestan is most interrested about this vehicle, and we'd like to know whether you consider it possible to sell production rights for it? If so, what would be the price?

Yours most truly,
Colonel Tamujid, The Minister of Everything
Armed Republic of Madnestan

the Tokera would like to buy 5,000 of these tanks for $75,000,000,000 USD.

To: Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
From: Army Chief Antonius Santius
Incorporated States of Sarzonia
Subject: Hoplite II - Phalanx MBT

The Incorporated Sarzonian Army has secured an exception to the Domestic Defence Appropriations Act that would enable us to place an order for 1,500 Hoplite II - Phalanx main battle tanks. We believe this outstanding design would enable us to provide ideal support for our infantry and artillery forces. The amount for this order comes to $22.5 billion.

We eagerly await the response to this order request. Thank you for going live with such a brilliant product.

Wow, great tank Praetonia, good job. If i didn't have my own all new generation tank coming up i'd probably buy some.

<SNIP!>
Another reason why I have a healthy fear of Praetonia's military. Very well done, Praetonia.

I'd like to purchase 10 Hoplite II-Phalanx MBTs for tests on its armor. If we are satisfied we'll purchase more.

the tokera would be interested in purchaseing 5,000 tanks.

True, but if you fire a KE penetrator fast enough it will shatter rather then penetrate the armor, and if you fire a 30mm round with a rail gun (Like the US army is testing) the round actually vaporizes(They have to conduct test in a water tank), faster and smaller isn't always better, a 135mm round going near the velocity of your 120mm round will work better then a 120mm round, and if your talking meteric tons then your right, but I'm talking US tons. And yeah it would end up as a tie, if you were both idiots and sent tanks and infantry in the meatgrinder instead of using TACTICS (Something lacking in NS) but if you use tactics I still believe a ST-29 would win (Of course, I could be wrong)
Maybe you're right. I think that the differences between the ST-29 and the Phalanx are small enough that the battle will be in the hands of the best tankers, rather than the best tanks. That's my hope anyway.

And I'm not sure about the main gun bore. APDS rounds are sub-calibre anyway, so meh. I'll think about it.

OOC- *offers his hand for a hand-shake* Congratulations, Praetonia, that's one helluva tank. In your description, it states "there is no tank design on the face of the earth which can simply brush a Phalanx aside, and precious little which can beat it." All I can say is, damn true, I can't think of a single vehicle which could 'simply brush it aside', as this thing is on par and exceeds most anything out there. I can say with a certain amount of confidence that on an even battle field, one against one, an ST-29E [or ST-29K] versus the Phalanx [Hoplite II], that the decision is effectively in the air.

Wow. Soviet Bloc praising me on a tank design? I am truely honoured.

About the only thing I can say could be changed is the fact you have most of your secondary weaponry in the miniature turret, I'd say have at least a conventional 12.7mm be seperated and be capable of being operated by a crewman within the turret, providing anti-infantry defense [without having to use the cupola mini-turret thing] especially in an urban setting when the main gun is being used rarely.
Well I've got the co-axial 12.7mm machinegun if that's what you mean. If you mean a more conventional cupola-mounted machinegun then I could mount an extra one, but it might make the cupola seem a little overloaded, and it is the only turret hatch since there is no loader.

And finally, I must applaud you on some simple solutions to problems, I love the tank roof idea [although it wouldn't help much against a top-attack kinetic kill munition and probably would still result in plenty of damage to the tank, but it is better than the tank itself receiving the brunt of damage] and the premature ERA detonation system [where the 20mm fires moments before the main gun to detonate the ERA] is awesome, I might have to steal it, nah, I wouldn't.
Thanks. The tank roof was from a RL site that Verdant / Chardonay linked me to though, so I cant take credit for it. I'm suprised that no one else (except I think Chardonay) on NS has used it.


]Otherwise, beautiful vehicle, I have a newly developed detection system that I would be willing to share, but only if you have an interest, otherwise I'll keep it all for myself [hehehe] as I continue work on, what I hope, will be my greatest tank design, I'll see how that turns out...
*nods* That does sound very interesting, I'd like to see it. Of course, if you let me share your new detection system you can have the premature ERA detonation system.

-------------------------------------

To: Whom it May Concern
The Repubic of Skinny87
From: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
Subject: RE: Tank Order

It is my pleasure to confirm your order of 10,000 Hoplite II - Phalanx MBTs. New factories and production lines are currently in the process of being set up, but we estimate that your order will take 7 years to complete, with 2,000 being delivered in the first 2 years and the remaining 8,000 delivered in the following 5 years. We hope that this vehicle serves your armed forces well, and that you consider IPO and affiliated companies again in future.

To: Colonel Tamujid, Minister of Everything
Madnestan
From: Sir Fortuanus Gallius MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
Subject: RE: Tank Order

Firstly I wish to thank you for your interest in the Phalanx MBT. Secondly I wish to inform you that whilst we are not able to offer production rights per se, we would be willing to license a single production run of a set number of vehicles to be carried out in your own nation. This would be set at a fixed rate cost of $3,500,000 per vehicle.

To: Whom it May Concern
The Tokera
From: Sir Fortuanus Gallius MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
Subject: RE: Tank Order

I am happy to confirm your order of 5,000 Phalanx MBTs, and I can inform you that they will be completed within 4 years. I hope that these tanks will serve your armed forces well and that you will consider Praetonian arms industries again in future for your military requirements.

To: Army Chief Antonius Santius
Incorporated States of Sarzonia
From: Sir Fortuanus Gallius MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
Subject: RE: Tank Order

I'm very happy to confirm Sarzonia's order for 1,500 Phalanx vehicles, and also to inform you that I am able to offer the Phalanx for a cut-price of $13,000,000 per vehicle. Therefore your order will come to a total of $19,500,000,000. Your order should take no more than 3 years to complete. I hope that your vehicles will serve your armed forces well and that you will consider purchasing more in future.

To: Whom it May Concern
Holy Paradise
From: Sir Fortuanus Gallius MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
Subject: RE: Tank Order

We would be most willing to supply you with 10 vehicles for testing, along with all related testing data collated by our own armed forces. I hope that on the basis of your and our tests, you will see fit to place a larger order for the Phalanx.

[OOC: And thanks to Pushka, Holy Paradise, Madnestan and anyone else who has complimented the vehicle but who I've missed out.]

the tokera would like to purchase 5,000 Hoplite II MBT's for $75 billion USD.

Space Union is impressed with your new tank. Very wonderful machine. For that reason we would like to buy 100,000 of these magnificent vechicles. Total: $1,500,000,000,000

Thank You

To: Whom it May Concern
The Tokera
From: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
Subject: RE: Tank Order

I am pleased to be able to confirm your order for 5,000 Hoplite II - Phalanx MBTs. Now that new manufacturing facilities are in place, I can assure you that the order will be complete within 2.5 years. I hope that the tanks will serve your military well, and that you will consider us again in future.

To: Whom it May Concern
Space Union
From: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
Subject: RE: Tank Order

Having examined your economy, I am happy to confirm your order provided that you agree to pay for the vehicles over a number of years. As a single bulk payment I would doubt the ability of your government to realistically afford said vehicles. They should be complete within 7 years.

[OOC:]The Hoplite[you should call it the Hoplon, the shield] II is obvisouly one of the most advanced and nearly impervious tanks in the NS world once again. I appluad your effort to change the worlds armoured vehicles.

To: Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
From: General Antonius Santius
Army Chief, Incorporated States of Sarzonia
Subject: Hoplite II MBT

The Incorporated Sarzonian Army has spent an exhaustive period evaluating the Hoplite II main battle tanks we ordered from IPO and I must say I am having a very hard time controlling my enthusiasm in writing this reply! These tanks are some of the most advanced and well-protected of any we have had in our employ and they have exceeded our expectations in nearly every way imaginable.

Parliament has approved a measure for us to order many new main battle tanks, and they have approved another exception to our Domestic Defence Appropriations Act prohibiting us from purchasing from foreign suppliers since we are currently engaged in hostilities with Doomingsland, who uses a tank that is far more advanced than any of Sarzonian manufacture. Thus, we would like to place an order for 8,500 additional Hoplite II units, making the total cost $127.5 billion, which we will wire immediately upon confirmation.

Imperial Praetonian Ordnance is to be congratulated for designing such a successful product and one that our Parliament feels is imperative for our country to obtain regardless of where it's manufactured! We wish our Praetonian brethren much success in the years ahead with this incredible vehicle.

OOC: Just want to say again that it is a very good tank. I will finish my own tank of that level soon, wanna have a joint tank project after that?

To: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance

In the light of improving our military, we would like to buy 15,000 Hoplite II - Phalanx MBT's and the production rights. Money wired upon confirmation.

~ André Flahaut

We would like to purchase 2,000 of these excellent tanks for $30,000,000,000.

Nice tank, Prare. Only one bug: reliability. Then again, that's not your fault, it's an NS trend. But nevertheless, I can't help thinking that this tank would function...once, and then break down. It's the Tiger-II all over again. Works brilliantly, then breaks down after 24 hours. The ETC gun is a massive weight and dependant upon a reliable power supply (not to mention stable magnetic fields) in order to even function, never mind work reliably, as is the EM rifling system; the diesel-electric drive is needlessly complicated, and the array of defensive systems and sensors on this thing would be a nightmare of a maintanance (never mind logistics) problem. Honestly, I pity the Praetonian REME.

Still, this isn't exclusive to this tank by any means, so it's pointless to go on about it. Just gets on my tits from time to time. The only thing that I have to say specific to this particular vehicle are that 1) it'll be very hard to operate due to lack of turret space and the aforesaid reliability issues, and 2) that armour is far too heavy. Tungsten and DU are terribly dense; damn good at stopping projectiles, to be sure, but dense as hell. With that lot on it, and given its dimensions and the equipment here, it's going to weigh a fair bit more than 72 tons (a mere 3.5 tons heavier than the M1A2). I'd expect this to be weighing in on the wrong side of 75-80 tons, to be honest. Also, MTA is pretty well pointless (unless you're willing to chuck a sheet of lead at the projectile); if you're moving over any terrain that's not flat, with a tiny projectile approaching at extremely high speed, you're not going to hit it with a "metal bar."

Hmpf. There's at least one tank in the world this thing can't defeat :)

This is the only ETC gun carrier design I've seen in months that I've liked.

Nice tank, Prare. Only one bug: reliability. Then again, that's not your fault, it's an NS trend. But nevertheless, I can't help thinking that this tank would function...once, and then break down. It's the Tiger-II all over again. Works brilliantly, then breaks down after 24 hours.
The Tiger II wasnt actually like that >.< It broke down at the beginning, because it was rushed into service due to the impending invasion, but breaking down after 24 hours? No. It actually worked well at the end. Perhaps this tank would malfunction if made by a RL nation, but I have the time and the money to test and refine the systems.

The ETC gun is a massive weight and dependant upon a reliable power supply (not to mention stable magnetic fields) in order to even function, never mind work reliably, as is the EM rifling system; the diesel-electric drive is needlessly complicated, and the array of defensive systems and sensors on this thing would be a nightmare of a maintanance (never mind logistics) problem. Honestly, I pity the Praetonian REME.
The gun gives the tank the ability to actually damage the enemy, and the defensive systems to survive long enough to use the gun. Fairly important things, no? And 5.56mm (soon to be 6.7mm due to my recent calibre change) is just a standard round I used to issue to infantry. 30mm is a major round as well, mounted on IFVs. And ETC guns worked in the 80s, built by a nation with a hundreth of my resources.

Still, this isn't exclusive to this tank by any means, so it's pointless to go on about it. Just gets on my tits from time to time. The only thing that I have to say specific to this particular vehicle are that 1) it'll be very hard to operate due to lack of turret space
It has an autoloader, therefore the crew dont have to move around in the turret. This isnt an issue.

and the aforesaid reliability issues, and 2) that armour is far too heavy. Tungsten and DU are terribly dense; damn good at stopping projectiles, to be sure, but dense as hell. With that lot on it, and given its dimensions and the equipment here, it's going to weigh a fair bit more than 72 tons (a mere 3.5 tons heavier than the M1A2).
Whatever. I didnt base this off of whatever the yanks have. It's based off of the Challenger 2, which weighs 62 tonnes, a whole 10 tonnes lighter, therefore it seems fair, as does the speed (which is basically all that weight means for the purposes of RP since this is too heavy even as is for airlifting).

Also, MTA is pretty well pointless (unless you're willing to chuck a sheet of lead at the projectile);
If anything moving at mach whatever got hit by a metal bar it would just shatter, or at least veer wildly off course doing much less damage. Dont get me wrong - this isnt going to work every time - but it isnt as you seem to suggest - a waste of money that'll break if you touch it.

Prae, like it or not this thing will be hideously unreliable, like most NS tanks. I recall once coming across in one of my books a list of statistics, which concluded that a 1-million-dollar system on average will fail about once every 12 hours. Now how many systems worth $1m or more are there in this tank, do you think? Even with a large population and the accepted NS wank constant, you're gonna get horrible maintenance issues with such a lot of complex, vulnerable and sensitive electronic equipment aboard one tank - it stands to reason that if you pack a lot of advanced and relatively delicate stuff into one machine it will have a high failure rate. It's not your fault and it's not an exclusive thing (my own T-115 contains much the same stuff as this), but nonetheless NSers seem to think that all their equipment, that shiny, happy stuff of which they're so inordinately proud, will just magically work under the extremely arduous conditions of combat. Time and money you may have, but that will not ensure reliability. Time and money doesn't increase the proportion of personnel suitable to work as skilled engineers in your military, for instance, nor does it improve the dificulty of finding a problem in such a lot of kit. Tankers spend 75% of their time outsdie their tanks in RL. Each tank has to have at least 8 man-hours per day of maintenance work, just to keep it in running order, and that's a relatively uncomplicated machine like the T-80 or Chieftain. God alone knows how hard something like this will be to keep running. All right, so it's a very good tank, but it's bugger-all use if the entire FCS has gone down due to a dead capacitor or a small short-circuit.

The gun gives the tank the ability to actually damage the enemy, and the defensive systems to survive long enough to use the gun. Fairly important things, no? And 5.56mm (soon to be 6.7mm due to my recent calibre change) is just a standard round I used to issue to infantry. 30mm is a major round as well, mounted on IFVs. And ETC guns worked in the 80s, built by a nation with a hundreth of my resources.

Again, yes, important things - but again, there is needless complexity in the ETC weapon (and incidentally, "working" is very different from "working in combat). It provides improved capability, admittedly, but do the returns in terms of combat capability outweight the problems of keeping it ready for combat? Always a tricky question, to be sure, but nonetheless I think that a tank cannot afford the luxury of an ETC. And please, stop quoting the resources thing. NSers have an obsession with this, having apparently failed to realise that money cannot cure all things.

It has an autoloader, therefore the crew dont have to move around in the turret. This isnt an issue.

How much do you actually know about tanks? The T-64, T-72, T-80 and T-90 all have autoloaders, but with it comes absolutely terrible human engineering. There's a hell of a lot of equipment in a tank, and the crew still have to move and work inside it. Cramped turrets put extra demands on ventilation, on interior lighting, on cooling and heating systems according to climate. A cramped turret with a lot of heat-generating machines inside it in even a temperate climate like ours will become awful to work in after a while, hot and humid, and with no room to move around more than a few inches. Put it in a jungle, or a desert, and the problem becomes intolerable, hence arab tankers abandoning their tanks on occasion, overcome by the heat and fumes within (despite the presence of ventilators and fume extractors).

Whatever. I didnt base this off of whatever the yanks have. It's based off of the Challenger 2, which weighs 62 tonnes, a whole 10 tonnes lighter, therefore it seems fair, as does the speed (which is basically all that weight means for the purposes of RP since this is too heavy even as is for airlifting).

Ah, the ever-dismissive "whatever." Don't be so quick to say "whatever," mate, because it's usually the sign of a guy who doesn't know, and doesn't care that he doesn't know. Yes, the Chally II is lighter. That's probably attirbutable to different engines, transmission, gearboxes and so forth. Well, you're using a 2,400bhp engine with electric drive, so that's pretty weighty (is 65 tons OK for you?), and then you're plonking depleted uranium and tungsten around the tank, which, on an object this size, is one hell of a weight. Oh, and don't forget the heavy alternators for all that electrical equipment, plus the ETC itself (a heavy weapon, with such a strong breech, all those electromagnets and that) and the EM rifling; oh, and the various self-defence weapons, better add those on as well. The Chally-II is, agreed, 62 tons. The Chally-II doesn't have an ETC main gun, nor does it have a 30mm cannon, or a 5.56mm chaingun, or an extremely powerful diesel-electric drive system, or solid layers of tungsten and DU. Put all them onto it, and we'll see what it weighs then.

If anything moving at mach whatever got hit by a metal bar it would just shatter, or at least veer wildly off course doing much less damage. Dont get me wrong - this isnt going to work every time - but it isnt as you seem to suggest - a waste of money that'll break if you touch it.

Yes, it will shatter, but will you hit it? Probably not, so what's the point having it? It'x extra weight, extra complexity, extra maintenance, extra cost to build, and has only a minimal chance of success unless you guide it straight onto the projectile. Think an unguided metal rod can intercept, say, a 40mm dart doing about 600m/s? Fine, but don't blame me if all you end up with is a lot of metal bars and a lot of dead tanks from whence they came.

Prae, like it or not this thing will be hideously unreliable, like most NS tanks. I recall once coming across in one of my books a list of statistics, which concluded that a 1-million-dollar system on average will fail about once every 12 hours. Now how many systems worth $1m or more are there in this tank, do you think? Even with a large population and the accepted NS wank constant, you're gonna get horrible maintenance issues with such a lot of complex, vulnerable and sensitive electronic equipment aboard one tank - it stands to reason that if you pack a lot of advanced and relatively delicate stuff into one machine it will have a high failure rate. It's not your fault and it's not an exclusive thing (my own T-115 contains much the same stuff as this), but nonetheless NSers seem to think that all their equipment, that shiny, happy stuff of which they're so inordinately proud, will just magically work under the extremely arduous conditions of combat. Time and money you may have, but that will not ensure reliability.
Why yes it will. You are aware that there once once a time when tank guns were not made, yes? Everything is new and unreliable once, but this has been built on 3 pervious tanks, and it has not be rushed out in a hurry. It isnt going to fail any more than a Challenger II or an Abrams, purely because it's had the same development track of them proportional to its complexity.

Time and money doesn't increase the proportion of personnel suitable to work as skilled engineers in your military, for instance, nor does it improve the dificulty of finding a problem in such a lot of kit.[/DPUO]
Well it does allow me to better train my engineers, yes, and it also means that the stuff wont break so often. A lot of the stuff in this tank doesnt need to work perfectly, it just helps.

I should also point out (and I know that this isnt an amazingly consistant argument etc etc but it's important) that since no one on NS ever RPs anything ever going wrong on their vehicles, if I started I would just be walked over. And why? For RPing realistically? No thanks. I'd rather win or lose based on my ability to make tech, and the strategic ability I RP my generals having, not through laods of random breakages that mean my army doesnt work whereas the enemy using exactly the same technology doesnt have any of those problems.

[quote=DPUO]Tankers spend 75% of their time outsdie their tanks in RL. Each tank has to have at least 8 man-hours per day of maintenance work, just to keep it in running order, and that's a relatively uncomplicated machine like the T-80 or Chieftain. God alone knows how hard something like this will be to keep running. All right, so it's a very good tank, but it's bugger-all use if the entire FCS has gone down due to a dead capacitor or a small short-circuit.
Well how often does your computer break to the extent that it needs to be taken apart, tested extensively and then rebuilt with new components? Microsoft may not be wholy stable, but it doesnt do that. The advantage of having most of the systems run on well-made and protected computers is that there are less moving parts to go wrong, and so that is a less frequent occurance.

Again, yes, important things - but again, there is needless complexity in the ETC weapon (and incidentally, "working" is very different from "working in combat). It provides improved capability, admittedly, but do the returns in terms of combat capability outweight the problems of keeping it ready for combat? Always a tricky question, to be sure, but nonetheless I think that a tank cannot afford the luxury of an ETC. And please, stop quoting the resources thing. NSers have an obsession with this, having apparently failed to realise that money cannot cure all things.
Money does actually cure all things, if you look at RL (well, so long as what you're doing is physically possible). How did we get from Mk I tanks from WWI to Challenger IIs? Did they just appear? No. Investment and time was put into their development that MADE them work. A Challenger II is, incidently, much more reliable than a Mk I tank.

And ok, I'll get rid of the ETC. Now this cant even touch its opponents unless it hits the rear armour, and the enemy (who is using an ETC) can first-shot kill it on the front. *rolleyes*


]How much do you actually know about tanks? The T-64, T-72, T-80 and T-90 all have autoloaders, but with it comes absolutely terrible human engineering. There's a hell of a lot of equipment in a tank, and the crew still have to move and work inside it. Cramped turrets put extra demands on ventilation, on interior lighting, on cooling and heating systems according to climate. A cramped turret with a lot of heat-generating machines inside it in even a temperate climate like ours will become awful to work in after a while, hot and humid, and with no room to move around more than a few inches. Put it in a jungle, or a desert, and the problem becomes intolerable, hence arab tankers abandoning their tanks on occasion, overcome by the heat and fumes within (despite the presence of ventilators and fume extractors).
... and they were designed by the Soviets, who arent exactly the best engineers, not did they have the best technology.


Ah, the ever-dismissive "whatever." Don't be so quick to say "whatever," mate, because it's usually the sign of a guy who doesn't know, and doesn't care that he doesn't know. Yes, the Chally II is lighter. That's probably attirbutable to different engines, transmission, gearboxes and so forth. Well, you're using a 2,400bhp engine with electric drive, so that's pretty weighty (is 65 tons OK for you?), and then you're plonking depleted uranium and tungsten around the tank, which, on an object this size, is one hell of a weight. Oh, and don't forget the heavy alternators for all that electrical equipment, plus the ETC itself (a heavy weapon, with such a strong breech, all those electromagnets and that) and the EM rifling; oh, and the various self-defence weapons, better add those on as well. The Chally-II is, agreed, 62 tons. The Chally-II doesn't have an ETC main gun, nor does it have a 30mm cannon, or a 5.56mm chaingun, or an extremely powerful diesel-electric drive system, or solid layers of tungsten and DU. Put all them onto it, and we'll see what it weighs then.
Honestly, I cant be bothered to argue about how much this tank should weigh. I dont actually KNOW how much it will weigh because I HAVENT BUILT AND WEIGHED IT. The important thing is that it is slow, which makes up for its heavy armament.

Yes, it will shatter, but will you hit it? Probably not, so what's the point having it? It'x extra weight, extra complexity, extra maintenance, extra cost to build, and has only a minimal chance of success unless you guide it straight onto the projectile. Think an unguided metal rod can intercept, say, a 40mm dart doing about 600m/s? Fine, but don't blame me if all you end up with is a lot of metal bars and a lot of dead tanks from whence they came.
sYou have to maintain steel bars? News to me. And the blocks fire in a similar way to ERA - when it's very close - and then just smash into it at clsoe range. It doesnt actually matter how fast it's going.

[general rant]Anyway, I really cant be bothered to have these stupid arguments anymore. If you think you can do so much better, design your own tank. This certainly isnt against you at all (and not generally arguments on tech I myself made, but this is just built up on top of dozens of other instances), but all these stupid arguments I have in NS now adays and a distinct lack of actual RPing is making me seriously consider leaving. I dont have the time, patience or the energy anymore, and I cant really see myself getting much out of II anymore in return.[/general rant]

So reply again if you want, but really dont be suprised if I dont reply.

OOC: Frankly, I'm more than a little disappointed with some of the arguing styles I've seen in this and other threads. The way this game has been played, the reliability issues that are legion IRL simply don't exist here. That doesn't mean you can't incorporate reliability challenges into your work or that everything is going to work perfectly, but making the argument that something is true IRL so it must be slavishly adhered to in NS is to make a hideously flawed argument.

I'm getting irritated with people who choose a player's rollout of a new product as a forum for them to bash the concepts, whether they be that of a "ETC gun carrier" or about specific uses of technology. If you have something specific to say about this tank that you find problematic, that's one thing. But if you want to spend time bashing the use of certain technologies that are only vaguely related to a person's work, create your own thread and don't pollute a thread when the player invested a LOT of time in a given product. More than half the posts in a thread where I introduced a new superdreadnaught were people who chose that thread to rant about the whole concept of SDs. To be blunt, it was infuriating.

DPUO, I can understand your objections to a certain extent; however, knowing Praetonia as long as I have, I know for a fact that he put a lot of time into researching this tank as he does with pretty much anything he's created. The way you're making your argument sound, he's rolling out a n00b tank that pwns j00 just because it does. That's a blatantly unfair implication.

Prae, I sincerely hope you don't leave the game. You're an excellent RPer, a brilliant writer, and a very good friend of mine. In my opinion, losing you as a RPer would give me tremendous disincentive to continue playing this game, especially if it's because people are behaving boorishly.

Sorry about the rather over-brash reply for my part. If I do leave the game (I probably wont, but I might take a break again) then it certainly wont be because of DPUO, but more because of the startling lack of RPs, which is a real shame. I might write up a better reply to DPUO's post if I get the time / energy to do so.

Sorry about the rather over-brash reply for my part. If I do leave the game (I probably wont, but I might take a break again) then it certainly wont be because of DPUO, but more because of the startling lack of RPs, which is a real shame. I might write up a better reply to DPUO's post if I get the time / energy to do so.Thank you for your apology. Perhaps you and I should do some one on one RPing, perhaps a RP where your army trains mine as part of my army reforms RP?

Fair enough, and I am sorry for taking up the thread with largely irrelevant bumph. Nor did I intend the implication which has apparently come over from what I've said, so sorry about that too. Now, Sarz: without wishing to further consume thread space, the fact is that chucking money and resources at problems doesn't necessarily solve them (witness hot fusion, "Star Wars," the MBT-70, the Patriot SAM system, TSR-2, Concorde, French agriculture and various other gubbins). Often as not, it's simply a case of long, dull and dedicated work (not necessarily made any easier by flippin' great wodges of cash) or a sudden flash of inspiration that gets things done - very rarely are problems solved by accountants. ;) Now yes, of course things will probably be more reliable in NS (mainly due to there being more people competent to operate them), but nevertheless the main issue I see with this (and all modern NS tanks) is the problem of keeping it going. That and the weight, which I already mentioned. So, while I appreciate where you're coming from (although I'm not arguing here against the idea of this tank), it remains a point that must be made.

That said, since everyone wanks their tech in NS anyway, it's not as if there's much choice; so sorry again, Prae. Despite my (I think) having a valid point I recognise fully that you're buggered if you don't keep up with the rest of 'em. I'll say no more.

bump

[OOC: Apologies for bumping a dead topic, but we're sorely in need of some new armor units, and the Hoplite fits the bill to a tee.]

To: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
From: General Frederick Strickland, Chief of Staff of the Army, the Democratic Imperium of Halberdgardia
Re: Order

The Democratic Imperium of Halberdgardia has required a new MBT model to replace the obsolete MassPwnage T-125 "Proletariat" units that the Imperium has maintained nearly since its founding. After careful review of some of the premier units on the market, the Joint Chiefs of Staff have decided on a large purchase of the Hoplite II - Phalanx MBT. Therefore, the Imperium wishes to purchase fifteen thousand Hoplite II - Phalanx MBTs, for the price of $225 billion. Payment will be wired upon confirmation.

Respectfully,
General Frederick Strickland
Chief of Staff of the Army
The Democratic Imperium of Halberdgardia

No problem at all.

To: General Frederick Strickland, Chief of Staff of the Army
Democratic Imperium of Halberdgardia
From: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordinance
Subject: Phalanx Order

Sir,

It is my pleasure to inform you that your request for 15,000 Hoplite II - Phalanx units has been cleared by the Board of Directors of Imperial Praetonian Ordinance, the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign and Colonial Office. My collegues and I wish to express our most sincere thanks for your choice to purchase the Phalanx over any one of the wide array of foreign MBTs - it is a compliment indeed. Your order will, no doubt, produce a large number of jobs in various sectors of Praetonian industry and go some way towards bringing our two nations closer together diplomatically.

Yours Sincerely,

Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordinance

[Nice tank. You and Soviet Bloc have made me doubt the relevence of my own tanks, thus I'm designing a completely new generation. To a certain extent I agree with DPUO on design philosophy, but so long as it isn't terrible wank I won't say a thing.]

This marvellous product seems to perfectly fit into our new armoured formations
in the role of the spear's head, the iron fist, the ultimate element of sheer CRUSHING POWER of our land forces. We are still interrested about production rights, but if they aren't in sale we'd like to order some 4,000 of these beauties
in the price of 14,000,000,000$, if we can home produce them.

Yours,
Warchief Tamujid, The Minister of Everything in
Armed Republic of Madnestan

OOC: I asked about these tanks when you first announced it, but forgot it and lost the bookmark... Thank's to Halberdquardia it was refounded!
You said back then that the price would be down to 3,500,000 if I produce them at home. Is this offer still at the table?

Another thing - I asked for some navy in your http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=400550&page=11&pp=15 - thread, like a month ago. Other nations have done so too, but you have not replied. Why's that? The order is still waiting the confirmation, if you so decide.

To: Warchief Tamujid, The Minister of Everything
Armed Republic of Madnestan
From: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordinance
Subject: Phalanx Order

Sir,

I am sorry that your order has been neglected for so long, but I am now happy to inform you that you will be able to build these vehicles domestically for £1,500,000 per unit. You will, of course, need to spend $12,000,000 per unit on production, but you will secure a real terms saving of $1,500,000 per unit over purchasing them from Praetonian factories.

Yours Sincerely,

Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordinance

[OOC: Sorry about the naval storefront thing... I've been really too busy with RPs and RL work to reply to it. Consider your order confirmed.]

[OOC: Thanks again, Prae.]

To: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP
Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance
From: General Frederick Strickland, Chief of Staff of the Army, the Democratic Imperium of Halberdgardia
Re: Order

The $225 billion has been wired to the accounts of Imperial Praetonian Ordnance. We look forward to working with Imperial Praetonian Ordnance and the Imperial Government again in the future.

Respectfully,
General Frederick Strickland
Chief of Staff of the Army
The Democratic Imperium of Halberdgardia

OOC: I'm reserving this post for an IC order, can't type up a long and detailed one right now.

Nice, really nice tank. Id buy some but im happy with my current tanks.

TO: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP, Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordinance
FROM: USNSEA Minister of Defense Paul David Nettleton
SUBJECT: Order

With an arms contracting company native to our nation expanding and flourishing at a great rate, they have several projects going on about and the Hoplite II Phalanx Main Battle Tank is required. But they don't have enough funds. On the behalf of them, I request forty of those Hoplite II MBTs. The cost of eight hundred billion USD shall be wired upon the confirmation of the order.

Yours Truly,
His Excellency,
USNSEA Minister of Defense
Paul David Nettleton

bump

bump

You missed my order Praetonia.

bump

well...

TO: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP, Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordinance
FROM: USNSEA Minister of Defense Paul David Nettleton
SUBJECT: Order

With an arms contracting company native to our nation expanding and flourishing at a great rate, they have several projects going on about and the Hoplite II Phalanx Main Battle Tank is required. But they don't have enough funds. On the behalf of them, I request forty of those Hoplite II MBTs. The cost of eight hundred billion USD shall be wired upon the confirmation of the order.

Yours Truly,
His Excellency,
USNSEA Minister of Defense
Paul David Nettleton
OOC: Well....

bump

TO: Sir Fortuanus Gallius, MP, Director-General of Imperial Praetonian Ordinance
FROM: USNSEA Minister of Defense Paul David Nettleton
SUBJECT: Order

With an arms contracting company native to our nation expanding and flourishing at a great rate, they have several projects going on about and the Hoplite II Phalanx Main Battle Tank is required. But they don't have enough funds. On the behalf of them, I request forty of those Hoplite II MBTs. The cost of eight hundred billion USD shall be wired upon the confirmation of the order.

Yours Truly,
His Excellency,
USNSEA Minister of Defense
Paul David Nettleton
[OOC: Dont know how I missed this, what with all the bumps, but I apologise for the delay and will now confirm your order.]

Primary Sales Invoice - Imperial Land Defence Systems

_____________________________
To: USNSEA Minister of Defense Paul David Nettleton
From: Sir Robert Wallingson, Directory-General of Imperial Land Defence Systems

Dear Sir,

Thankyou for your interest in the Hoplite II Phalanx MBT. It is our premier land defence product, and I am sure that it shall meet with your approval and that of your armed forces. The examples that you require are being assembled at our foundry in Uxbridge and will be completed promptly within the next six months. I hope that they serve your forces well, although if I may I would like to inquire as to what use you will put them to in your service. Our products are not intended to be used as the basis for other designs and, whilst I do not know if this is your intention, please inform your arms contractors that such operations are prohibited. Thankyou again for your custom, and I hope that you buy Praetonian again in future.

To: USNSEA Minister of Defense Paul David Nettleton
From: Sir Robert Wallingson, Directory-General of Imperial Land Defence Systems

Dear Sir,

Thankyou for your interest in the Hoplite II Phalanx MBT. It is our premier land defence product, and I am sure that it shall meet with your approval and that of your armed forces. The examples that you require are being assembled at our foundry in Uxbridge and will be completed promptly within the next six months. I hope that they serve your forces well, although if I may I would like to inquire as to what use you will put them to in your service. Our products are not intended to be used as the basis for other designs and, whilst I do not know if this is your intention, please inform your arms contractors that such operations are prohibited. Thankyou again for your custom, and I hope that you buy Praetonian again in future.
TO: Sir Robert Wallingson, Directory-General of Imperial Land Defence Systems
FROM: USNSEA Ministry of Defense
SUBJECT: Phalanx

Dear Sir Robert,

They [the arms contractors] have been informed. We shall be testing them instead for verification for our own armed forces, and shall make further purchases should we deem them for our military.

Yours Truly,
His Excellency,
USNSEA Minister of Defense
Paul David Nettleton

The 4,000 Hoplites we bought few years ago have proven to be worth all the praising, trust and money that have been put into them. Now, due the expansion of our nation (OOC: From 1 to 2 Billion people, from Strong to Powerhouse Economy ^^) and the military forces it possesses, we would be willing to further strengthen the Number One weapon of this army of ours - the Armoured Corps.
Some 16,000 Hoplite II's are what we're seeking now. Last time we purchased them, the price of each unit was £1,500,000 due the fact you so kindly allowed us to produce them domestically. Are these terms still in force? If they, like we dare to wish are, the sum of money to be paid to you should be £2,4 Billion. It'll be wired immediately after the hoped confirmation of this proposal.

Sincerely Yours,

Warchief Tamujid, The Minister of Everything in
The Heavily Armed Republic of Madnestan

--SECRET IC--

To: Praetoria
From: Mr. White, foreing affairs officer
Subject: Hopalite II Main Battle Tank
Message: The Dominion, in need of a new main battle tank design to serve alongside those we already maintain, is looking to your Hopalite II design. The Emperor, if the purchase of production rights outright is refused, has expressed his desire to purchase one-hundred thousand of such vehicles.

-Production Rights for Hopalite II MBT............$unknown
-or-
-100,000 Hopalite II MBTs.....................................$1,500,000,000,000 USD

Good day,
Mr. White