NationStates Jolt Archive

Don't worry the in character thread is coming right up. I'll link it from here once It's completed. I have a bit to go before it's ready, but be patient. Please, keep all out of character here, and not in the other thread!

OOC: Just as a note, can we simply assume Russia has taken control of Tarfaya? I just cou;dn't get around to RPing it, and it'd be too late now.

OOC: Just as a note, can we simply assume Russia has taken control of Tarfaya? I just cou;dn't get around to RPing it, and it'd be too late now.


Yea, that's fine.

[OOC: There a lot of misconceptions here that I need to clear up before we continue. For one, Spain is not a feudal nation, and publicly does not portray itself as one. It's ties with the Holy League were purely between Spain and France - I know for sure that Tsar Wingert dislikes Jonathan [not Juan, as some of you say, since that translates to Jon] - and, perhaps, Italy, which is very inactive. Spain's economy and it's society is purely capitalistic, motivated through self benefit and extreme compitition. The Spanish society enjoys most of the freedoms it enjoyed before, including non-censuring of the press, and now Morocco has been influenced with the same rights. The only difference is that the budget is leaning away from social welfare and things like that, towards science and the military.

Furthermore, Holy League diplomacy is totally different than Spanish diplomacy. As one hundred percent capitalist Spain is much more Machiavellian in its politics, especially foreign relations. For example, Spain spearheaded HL talks with China, until Sino was kicked from the game. I'm not really interwoven in this Russia/Belorussia story developing, but I do have ties with Russia as well. Indeed, the entire reason to allow the Sahara to be independent was to improve ties with the Progressive Bloc, regardless of what Louis XX thought - I see that failed.

Nonetheless, I am not feudal in any way, shape or form. Second thing, I am not a Catholic country. Sure, at the beginning that is what I used to unite Spain, but religion is totally seperate from my administration, and indeed, I am very Machiavellian when it comes to that as well. So in no way, shape, or form am I prophesizing Spain's decisions in the name of Catholocism - publicly, I never even hinted that.]

[OOC: For a nation hoping to be so machavellian in its dealings, Spain appears to have made a number of blunders. First and formost, its leader is married to a member of the French royal family, entering into the ties of blood with the founder of the Holy League... the same ties that connect Versilles and Kiev, and which could certainly not have been achieved unless Catalan was sufficiently devout to pass Louis' test of worthiness to be declared as having divine sanction for his rule. Added to the early use of Christianity against the Socialist government in Spain, and there exists a plausible framework to argue that Spain is a Catholic state and a member of the Holy League. The reality of Spanish administration is irrelevant... Catalan was perhaps too eager to manipulate all he could out of the French while not entering into the League, as such subtleties are easily subsumed by the appearance of collusion. This ought to have been obvious as a consequence of the alliance with France... which was not itself unintelligent (as the League was in a far superior position to Spain and some cozying up to Versailles may well have saved them from seeing a Bourbon puppet installed in Madrid), but the consequences cannot be denied.

The Progressive Bloc can hardly be considered to have started with good relations towards Spain... you overthrew a leftist government to sieze power, after all, then went on to become ally of the virulently anti-Progressive French, and started an imperial endeavour by taking Morocco. But the Progressives did not actively move against you at that time, and the Saharawi were content to secure their new position and plan commando actions directed at the Algerian monarchy. It would not be a comfortable state of affairs, but it would not have had reason to change. There was certanly some relief... if Spain did not take the SADR, perhaps their imperialism would cease with Morocco.

Then Spain built up a substantial naval Armada, mobilized large military forces, and engaged in a second act of imperialism against Portugual.

From a machiavellian perspective, this seems to be a ludicrous action... Spain's primary ally France has begun to suffer some internal difficulties with an unclear future. The Proressive Bloc has already mobilized its military forces in preparation to engage the League over matters in the Baltics, and had been joined in condemnation of imperial expansion by Beijing. United Elias, both primary source of fossile fuels and longtime supporter of the Moroccan monarchy overthrown by Spain, cannot be conidered to be particularly pleased with Madrid. Former Spanish colonies, from Western Sahara to Argentina, can no longer trust that Spanish imperial restoration was a limited affair. Portugual is a Western capitalist democracy situated well within the sphere of NATO interest and having warm relations with Britain, meaning that the four NATO powers have a high likelihood of becoming involved in the affair, even if support for Portugual's defense is only provided in limited fashion.

Quite a few factors, which might have been dealt with given time, caution, and a good dose of diplomatic manipulation to assure a better chance of success at the task at hand. But, that is neither here nor there.

As to 'feudal' Spain, I doubt such an accusation is an economic one in a definitional sense... in a way, the Progressive nations would view a capitalist economy as 'feudal', but the term is far more one of ideology and propaganda. The Holy League is feudal, simply put. Rome is perhaps the most so, with re-instituted slavery and other historical elements of the Roman Empire. France pratices aristocratic capitalism, where the nobility are the primary sources of capital within the market economy. The Estenlans has a far more loose system... political power is concentrated in the monarch, and delegated to a nobility whose status gives them far more wealth opportunities than the average citizen, but the economy is a capitalist one. And Russia, a representative democracy with a virulently free market capitalist economy and no ties of marriage to the Holy League, is still often saddled with the feudal label and considered an HL state, due to its recent actions and an alliance based in a single League member (Estenlands). 'Feudal', as commonly thrown around, is a political term most commonly used for the nations seen as affiliated with the Holy League, (perhaps based on their common characteristics of concentrating political power in a crowned individual and/or pursuit of imperialist policies).]

OOC: Well, Spyr, I don't mean to disagree with you too much, but for Macabees this time might just be the opportunity to take over Portugal really.

If most of the other nations are preoccupied with Russia in the Baltics, or Estenlands expanding its control over Russia, then it is possible that if the Estenlands and Macabees were cooperating even slightly they would divide our forces and attention.

Of course, the timing could have been better, but I am thinking that Macabees is simply testing the limits of his box. He could simply be probing to find out how far the international community will let him go...

But then again.. I'm not Macabees so I wouldn't know.

Unfortunately, I don't trust Winger too much since out of character it's the same player. I mean, he could be role playing them fairly and such, but because I don't have a lot of experience of seeing Quintonnia role play I can't really tell - consequently, Estenlands and myself aren't really diplomatically active. I am allied, however, to Russia, but I don't know how he's doing.

But, Hudecia, as Spyr says, most of the world can't help but see Spain and the League as part of the same problem, and with France in some manner of chaos and many people/nations left with the impression that Wingert is on the brink of achieving significant power (because, let's face it, much as it may have hurt his pride, nobody actually gave a monkey's when he only had the Ukraine to command), so if action is to be taken against the HL-bloc, now would appear to be the perfect time. Spain popping its head up over the ramparts and stretching itself to a second conquest at this moment is pretty convenient.

Anyway, I think that Spyr put it all pretty well, so I'll just echo his remarks.

(Oh, wait, that said, I would hope that the USQ's part in this is a precedent that won't be broken in their dealings with future Estenlandic abominations, or that would indeed indicate a conflict of interests.)

A query about the Moroccan occupation... exactly what sort of things were done there to cause such a dramatic economic boom?

There hasn't been a large economic boom, except for the fact that the economies of both nations are largely intertwined, meaning Moroccon workers are paid from Madrid, allowing the per capital to increase, although not by a large margin. Other than that, there's been the beginning of construction of heavy pre-fabricated factories and the such.

Also, although I've only had one completed role play so far, it was over the timespan of three real life months, which I don't know how that translates to A Modern World - but I think that for three RL months, a jump per capita of 600 dollars isn't farfetched at all.

There's also been a jump in the standard of living, including more freedoms - since my autocracy isn't a repressive autocracy -, the expansion of the cellular and telecommunication networks - you can imagine that there will be more telephones, radios, computers and televisions as a result.

Again it hasn't been a huge difference, but there's a noticible difference between Morocco under their autocracy, and occupied Morocco.

An apparent rise in GDP of $19,635,508,200, or almost fifteen percent, in three months (as you state above, one month as you state in the IC thread) seems quite massive, especially as in RL a free trade agreement with the United States and widespread privatization, still including the resources from Tarfaya and Western Sahara, only grew to shy of 5% annually, and the 'miracle days' of the Japanese economic boom or recent RL Chinese growth have themselves remained short of 10% per annum.

That is not to say substantial growth is impossible. If there was rampant direct investment of foreign capital into building the infrastructure neccessary for creating new employment opportunities. This would, however, seem to neccessitate a substantial long-term expenditure program.

For Spain to have in quick succession undergone a revolution, built up a modern military, purchased a modern armada from the Sinoese and supplied fuel and supplies to move the whole thing some 30,000 kilometres, financed an invasion of Morocco, financed an extremely rapid & massive economic boom in Morocco, financed military expansion in Spain and Morocco (totalling 4% and 5% of total population respectively, with all combat staff purportedly trained and equiped as first-tier forces, denying the economy that labour force), built up the stockpiles to mount and pay for an invasion of Portugal, paid salaries to Moroccan youth and women and provided them with military equipment, and finance increased construction of industry in Spain outside the traditional industrial heartland... while some of these may still be ongoing, at least to me, it seems that Spain ought to have run out of funds some time ago.

'Opening the Ports of Europe' to Morocco, as a factor mentioned in the IC thread, doesn't seem to be that significant a step: their RL trade is as follows: France 25.3%, Spain 18.4%, UK 8%, Italy 4.9%, Germany 4.6%, US 4.6%.
Primary Exports: clothing, fish**, inorganic chemicals, transistors, crude minerals, fertilizers (including phosphates)*, petroleum products***, fruits, vegetables.
*Morocco's large-scale phosphate facilities were concentrated in what is now Western Sahara, and their fertilizer export capacity will have been vastly reduced in absence of this source.
**The richest fishing grounds off Atlantic North Africa were also lost to the territorial waters and EEZ of the SADR.
***Spain ceded Morocco's prime oil fields at Tarfaya to the Russians.

Going by the CIA Factbook (not neccessarily the most accurate for AMW circumstances), similar major imports in the 'opened' European economies:

Spain: chemicals.
Ukraine (Estenlands): chemicals (Ukraine both imports and exports chemical substances, meaning there may be competitive overlap).
Italy: chemicals, textiles and clothing. (Italy both imports and exports chemicals and textiles-clothing, meaning there may be competitive overlap).
Russia: No major. (Russia produces some chemicals as a primary export. There may be competitive overlap).
France: chemicals. (France produces some chemicals as a primary export. There may be competitive overlap).

I am, unfortunately, ill versed in the particular import/export chemicals of Euro-African economies, but it would seem to me that even if no competition occurs between Moroccan exports and Europe's production, there appears to be little excess demand into which Morocco's exports might be funneled in larger amounts.

In addition, there are some factors about which I am unclear. The first is the Moroccan oil subsidy: the Moroccan monarchy in RL subsidizes petrol to make it more affordable, keeping the population more content. In RL, the government deficit has been increasing over the past several years as demand exceeds domestic production and importation becomes neccessary. With the world's prmary oil producer, United Elias, not likely to support Spain's occupation of Morocco, and with Western Saharan and Tarfaya oil no longer in Spanish-Moroccan hands, import needs will certainly have increased, and with them th cost of the subsidy... conversly, cancellation of low gas prices would certainly be an unpopular move.

Secondly, there is the issue of the leadership supposedly co-opted by the Spanish to administer the region. A moderate Islam is in keeping with that supported by the Moroccan monarchy (though any accusations of fundamentalism or strict Islam against the former crown would be, to the local population, quite obviously ludicrous). Fundamentalist muslims were hunted down by Morocco before just as they appear to have been under the Spanish... no difference there, really. As usual, dissaffected youth and extremists pop up here or there.

The first problem is Spanish propaganda... you've said in the IC thread that the publically-professed story is "Spain is now under Muslim influence, while the eastern Muslims have been corrupted by Israel".
The first seems rather unbelievable... Catalan is married to a devout Catholic, allied with th Christian alliance that forced a Catholic monarchy into power in neighbouring Algeria. This might have been suppressed, though in a land where even dsert Bedouin often carry satellite TV dishes, it would seem extremely difficult to restrict access to global information, let alone that being broadcast from the bordering SADR and Algeria, or perhaps even the Iberian peninsula depending on broadcaster locations. This in addition to your above statement that there are increasing numbers of telephones, radios, computers and televisions.

The second would seem to also be somewhat inconcievable. Morocco and United Elias have long been united in not only political relations but also in their moderate Islam... in RL, Morocco has some of the best relations with Israel of any Muslim country, and here in AMW the Moroccan population will be fully aware that Baghdad has never pursued an anti-Israeli policy, nor has their own state or religious leaderhip had particular objections to Israel. In short, accusations of Zionist collusion would not seem to be likely to produce the desired result of distrust for the rest of the Muslim world. Rather, I would suspect that the fundamentalism emerging out of Al Khals and Indonesia would resonate with the same small segments of the Muslim community as it would in the moderate environments of United Elias, Sujava, Libya, Algeria, Sujava, Xinjiang, Central Asia, etc.

Another difficulty I'm having is figuring out exactly what the puppet Moroccans get out of the deal. You've said they get full control over the population of Morocco not in the Spanish military, but also that Moroccans now experience greater freedoms than ever before, and that in addition to the 5% of population in the military, the Spanish are now arming vast segments of the youth and female population. So, the political power reward would seem to not be particularly substantial. Per-capita GDP is up, apparently increasing individual wealth substantilly, meaning that vast fortunes are not being siphoned off to the puppets, so personal riches also appear to not be that great a factor. As examined above, one doubts that religious faith is the motivation, going from independance and a position of prominence in Africa and the Muslim world to vassal status makes nationalism doubtful. If odd compulsions to have freedom to perfrm sadistic acts was involved, then the general populace wouldn't be all that supportive. I must thus ask: why are these puppets working for Spain?

Well, again, you missed the entire point of the economy. If I said one real life month in my thread, I was wrong. I really don't know how time passes through AMW, but I assume it was more than three months, since I spent three real life months. I would also assume my fleet took a bit longer, although Sino's booting from the game didn't help at all - but that was built before I left for Spain, so that was also developed over the timespan of two real life months.

Regardless, the idea behind the per capita of Morocco rising is not that the Moroccon economy rose per se. Of course, it did, but not by a factor of 15%, especially if it's just rising because of the heavy industrialization of the area, including armaments and civilian consumables. What I said was that the rise in per capita was due to the fact that the common Moroccon is receiving its money from Spain, so it is to say, the Moroccon and Spanish per capitas have been more or less averaged for those civilians within Morocco, save for Melilla and Ceuta who enjoy the same per capita they had before Morocc was occupied. I do have long established plans to raise Morocco to a status alongside with Spain, although I particularly don't care about the Tarfaya oil, since Russia exports to me. If Estenlands annexes Russia, then Tarfaya will return to me.

On opening the ports to Europe, you have to understand that this isn't real life politics. I doubt that the Moroccons were trading much to Spain and France when the former was hoping to annex it, and the latter was the ally of the conqueror. Consequently, in terms of AMW, it is a big step for Morocco, because the ports to her two biggest trading partners have not only been opened, but their economies united.

As for the fundemantalism and how Spain is using that to its advantage, it is a little farfetched. If it was as easy as what I said then the US would be doing it in Iraq - but it's not that easy. I was hoping that French occupation of Algeria would more or less cut Islamic ties with the rest of North Africa and the Middle East, consequently, Morocco would be somewhat isolated - especially with Hindu 'occupants' in the Western Sahara, as they could be painted [I'm guessing that there would be conflict between the Saharawi and those Moroccons who still thought it as a provence of Morocco, or of Spanish Morocco]. What I was trying to forge was that the Spanish crown had promised the Islamic extremist within Morocco that they would retain full control of the areas they ministered - which would amount to an Islamic feudal society, mixed with the extreme Spanish capitalism in the government level - and by full control, that means they would retain a level of power, like lords; they would be vassals to the will of Spain.

As a consequence, it's assumed that whatever was expanded, such as televisions and the radio, is heavily administered by the local fuedal powers. So, it wouldn't be the fact that information is wide open to the Moroccons - it might be directly the opposite; I've never gone into specifics about that.

I think I hinted towards this in the one of the Moroccan thread posts, but the idea behind it all is the methodical industrialization and westernization of Morocco, including changing the mindset of the Moroccon people. You would think that by fuedalising it I would have done directly the opposite - especially by giving local extremist lordship powers - but, I had planned to expand on Morocco after my annexation of Portugal; annexation is not really the word - OOCly, Portugal, if I emerge victorious, would not turn into a provence of Spain, but I would install a centrist regime, much like the modern PP in Spain, and from there, hopefully persuade a fellow allied nation of mine to take its position - it was more of a setting up of a history for Portugal than anything else. But, regardless, this war should be fun.

Occupants as much as 600 light infantrymen and a small naval contingent can be called occupiers, I suppose. It might also be useful to say that Hindustan is mainly Muslim.

I still don't like how Spain got a supposedly world-beating military in what was comparatively the blink of an eye. It takes years to build those numbers of warships, and the means at Sino's disposal were never beyond doubt. Moreover, Spanish technologies appear a bit advanced for a government that just recently came to power. If I'm not mistaken, spain operates some four hundred stealth/low observable combat types? With that kind of airforce, one could beat pretty much anybody, including the UK.

Now if this stuff had much in the way of faults, it might be a bit more plausible, but you suggest that you have essentially top-quality military equipment across the board and make negligible use of former government equipments.

Perhaps if you moved the date of Juan Catalan's revolution back by a matter of years it would be better. Perhaps this antimosity towards well-to-do nations is born of me not wanting Hindustan to be so perfect, mabye to a degree unfair to those AMWers who have a bit more ambition, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. I'd like to say I couldn't care less if the HMDF was able to soundly defeat the Spanish navy or was sent to the bottom in its entirety, but, well, I do, so I hope you don't get offended at anything I say.

OOC: Hey everyone... the idea of AMW was (at least I thought) to be able to create our country in a realistic way but not to be confined by the status of the country...

So the question we should ask Macabees is not "does Spain have a 'world-beating' military" but "could Spain have a world-beating military?".

I mean... after all... if you were to apply the same logic to Hudecia/Canada then I'd have at my disposal... a few dozen old jets from the Korean war... a couple APCs... and a few hundred overworked, underpaid and demoralized troops (no offence to the Canadian military, but that is pretty much the situation).

In order to bring Hudecia to the point where I would want our military would require at least.... a decade or so?

If Macabees wants to rewrite Spanish history in a logical and realistic fashion shouldn't it be alright? He could say that the previous Spanish government had invested heavily in the military if he wanted to.

Besides.... lets just have fun RPing...

Could but didn't. I made Beth Gellert, not Sri Lanka & Half of India, and re-wrote the history of those territories. Mac took Spain, and started a modern divergence of history.
But I haven't really meant to get into this part of the argument, I just couldn't resist pointing-out the main flaw in that post, sorry.

Ok, guys, do you want me to re-start my history as Spain? I'll take it slower. I personally would prefer it, and although in the end it would most likely follow the same route, at least it would be more 'realistic'. How does that sound?

It might be too late at this piont to retstart Spain. I mean, we are knee deep in a major international confrontaion on the IC thread.

However, hearing about your airforce makes me really wonder, but I have had these resevations since you posted your intro that had a tank that had abilities that could only be described as "magical." ....I still remember when I gave my friend the engineer the make-ups of that special armour that was supposed to stop damn near anything anyone threw at it, "I don't even think that this qualifies as a metal. I think it would have the consistancy of chalk. The rest of it seems to be pretty much made-up. It doesn't even make sense."

I would just like to see Big Mac there stay with his current storyline, and then tone down his military to a more realistic level. I mean, if he had a fleet like the one he is claiming, his air force and army should be almost non-existant. At least it should be demoralised and lacking in all but the most basic equipment. That being said, if he makes even the most mild movement towards the Quinntonian fleet that I am moving against him or Portugal itself, I am going to sink the whole damn thing. And that should all but bankrupt him, especially when facing the war that he is.

I must also agree that Morrocco has got to be a major thorn in his side, and not nearly the loyal paradise that he thinks it is. But, send all those hastily raised, poorly trained, conquered troops from Morrocco against me, I like 50 to 1 kill ratios.

I guess he could field that kind of militray, but he would have to impose Dra-pol like restrictions on his population, and be facing the business end of a popular jihad in Morrocco.


BTW, If ever I seem to be colluding between my two accounts, call me on it. I have worked very hard to keep their spheres from touching, but I guess I was just really, really good at being an imperialistic bastard. I never dreamed when I made Wingert that he would one day actually rule the restored Russian Empire, that is jkind of like Hotan waking up one day realising that the Dra-poel ruled Japan, Korea and China. Who thunk it? If anyone thinks that Quinntonia is in any way propping up Wingert, call me on it.

I hope that it never comes to an armed conflict between Wingert and Quinntonia, but, I will do it if I have to. Man, would that ever be the RP from hell.

WWJD
Amen.

Umm,then that engineer isn't qualified to be an engineer since chobham composite armor is used by the Americans and the British on their tanks :p . I'm sorry, but if he said that he should go back to the university.

Remember guys, the three months I was gone did count for the development of all my military, so it's not like I took two weeks to complete it all. Well, unless you want me to spend seven years on NS so that everything can take effect.

EDIT: Remember Quintonnia, a lot has to do with roleplaying, and not just troop quality. We'll see who has the highest kill ratios...I think you're seriously underestimating me, and I don't think you should do so.

In other news, is anybody taking Portugal or am I going to just roleplay the resistance again?

Whatever the armour that you were using sure wasn't based on anything from RL. I remember in that first RP, your super-tank taking out something like five M1A2 Abrams without breaking a sweat. That is all well and good except the Abrams is the most advanced MBT in RL.

And I am happy to RP the battles, I am just smelling a very France-like conflict, wherein I launch enough ordinance at you to take out small countries, and you have some magical hyper-technological way of taking it out.

AS for the time in RL, it has little bearing on NS. You posted one thread, way back, that you were asking IO think Sino to build you a battle fleet. I should maybe point out that no one is quite sure how you got it from China to the North Atlantic either. I mean, you either go the way of the Indian Ocean, where you have to worry about the Progressives, or the Pacific, where you have to worry about me.

As for the air force, are you actually claiming that you have 400 stealth type fighters? I mean, how are you paying for this? What portion of your populous is in revolt for bankrupting them? Are you beginning to starve people to get this military off the ground?

And as for the RPing argument as it pertains to the Moroccan regiments, you are basically raping their land in three months of the flower of their manhood, at 5% of their population. You are training them in that amazingly short time and arming them on your taxpayer’s money. You are then moving that high of numbers of their people away from their homes and families to live and probably fight and die in a foreign land. During that time back home, your Spanish troops are trying to control all the forms of government and communication and movement of citizens, using your already stretched resources to do all of this. You are somehow also colluding with all the religious leaders, making them happy that they are now under the rule of a conquering infidel. All the while hoping no one in the nations finds out about your goings on, which are not only hot news, but many of the nomads carry GPS and portable satellite TV and radio to pick up Arab news. Not only that, you claim to be helping them by expanding their telecommunications network. And then, while paying for all of this, you increase their GDP by around 15%. (It didn’t seem like much when it was per capita, did it?) Not only would this plan stretch your small nation to its absolute limits, but I think that if you don’t think that Morocco is in a full revolt right now, with a Imam backed Jihad against the conquering infidels, I think you live in the land of fairytales.

With the above, either you are Godmodding in some fashion, or (my guess) you really don’t understand the idea of a free-formed RP with the following restriction- REALISTIC!

Realistic economies, realistic reactions by the peoples, etc. But the most important right now I think is realistic tech. One of the rules of AMW is only technology that is in use today. And if you try to do what you did the last time, and start to spout off about experimental this and prototype that, I will have to point out again that your small nation needs to explain how it got all my technology and put it into mass production. Remember last time, your super-missiles and super-jets were based on prototypes that NASA had only tried, barely successfully a couple of months before. And I asked, how did you get my stuff and into mass production, and perfected the technology in that time?

That being said, could we have a brief break-down of your entire military and equipment types?

WWJD
Amen.

HAHAHAHAHA, that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. You know what, I quit the game. I now understand why France couldn't deal with you bitching all the time. How can you even hint at realism when you're role playing with an economy four times that of the United States? The entire game is made to your advantage, and you fail to allow anybody else to even have a chance - most likely because you're a horrible role player.

Hyper technology? No, it's probably less effective that what there is in real life. The only difference is that it sounds like hyper technology because I understand it better than you do, simply because it's my job to. My Lu-05s are most likely a generation under the F-22, but I could most likely blow your F-22 out of the sky because I understand the technology better than you do - that's freeform roleplaying. So, you carry the misconception, not me.

And how do I pay for it? Apart that Spain is the 8th largest economy in the world, and growing? Growing faster than the United States I might add as well [and fighting Canada for a spot in the G-8]. Spain being a small country? Abrams the best tank in the world? You're post is full of bullshit misconceptions. The Abrams, sorry to tell you, it outclassed by the T-80 [Russian], LeClerc[French], and the Leopard II [Germany], and this is underscored within several CIA factbooks [contact Malatose].

As for Morocco, didn't I mention those were three real life months. I mean hell, it would take weeks for your fleet to deploy, if not months, so uh let's wait another month before you can realistically send your fleet to battle with mine. Freeform roleplay allows you to take those three real life months and act as if it were six years.

But alas, it doesn't matter, because you're bullshit, and I quit. I'm going to unsubscribe from everysingle AMW thread and I'm not going to reply anymore. I hope you have a good life.

HAHAHAHAHA, that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. You know what, I quit the game. I now understand why France couldn't deal with you bitching all the time. How can you even hint at realism when you're role playing with an economy four times that of the United States? The entire game is made to your advantage, and you fail to allow anybody else to even have a chance - most likely because you're a horrible role player.

Hyper technology? No, it's probably less effective that what there is in real life. The only difference is that it sounds like hyper technology because I understand it better than you do, simply because it's my job to. My Lu-05s are most likely a generation under the F-22, but I could most likely blow your F-22 out of the sky because I understand the technology better than you do - that's freeform roleplaying. So, you carry the misconception, not me.

And how do I pay for it? Apart that Spain is the 8th largest economy in the world, and growing? Growing faster than the United States I might add as well [and fighting Canada for a spot in the G-8]. Spain being a small country? Abrams the best tank in the world? You're post is full of bullshit misconceptions. The Abrams, sorry to tell you, it outclassed by the T-80 [Russian], LeClerc[French], and the Leopard II [Germany], and this is underscored within several CIA factbooks [contact Malatose].

As for Morocco, didn't I mention those were three real life months. I mean hell, it would take weeks for your fleet to deploy, if not months, so uh let's wait another month before you can realistically send your fleet to battle with mine. Freeform roleplay allows you to take those three real life months and act as if it were six years.

But alas, it doesn't matter, because you're bullshit, and I quit. I'm going to unsubscribe from everysingle AMW thread and I'm not going to reply anymore. I hope you have a good life.

Not that I am really shedding a tear here, but just where do you get that I am playing an economy four times the size of RL USA? MY economy is EXACTLY what RL USA is. Which is just over 10 trillion GDP.

WWJD
Amen.

Ooookay. No more dandies running European countries, please!


Now, this clash of personalities/ideas/opinions was never handled terribly well, but really!
Now, fair enough, if Q's economy is the size of the USA's he's got to be careful in representing that the constant extreme militarisation and frequent massive deployments of his military and some heavy losses are going to cause problems in said economy (but since the potentially problematic change in Europe's politics and its traditionally important part in the Quinntonian economy doesn't seem to be sticking, I'd imagine that they might just struggle through). Still, I don't think he's ever gone so far as to do things that would appear to be the work of a forty-odd trillion dollar economy!

Likewise, the assembly and deployment of a major Quinntonian fleet and the sailing of a Spanish fleet, I think, have only been RPed as well or as poorly as one another, and there's no need for any party to get aggressive over that. It'd be better, if we see reason to criticise, to first set a good example (part of the reason that I haven't wanted to get *too* involved in that branch of criticism myself!).

For what it's worth, I don't think that the Abrams is the most advanced tank in the world, either. I'm not sure that the LeClerc is any better, but in some respects it may be more advanced. Challenger 2, I'm sure I've heard, uses fire-control taken from the Abrams and improved by a Canadian firm, so at first impression it would seem that this is another tank with more advanced features. These Swedes and possibly even the Chinese have used higher technology than the Americans with Abrams, too (because, hey, Abrams isn't brand new), but I see this as pretty insignificant in context. A lot of us are still, I think, a little confused about where Spanish high technology and heavy industry sprang from in rightist control before their rise to power.

I suppose the point there is that AMW expects that we can't all do everything alone, and have to interact and consider other people's nations, resources, and capabilities. But then, Spain sort of did that: their major warships came from China.

But there's a problem, there. That China was -through no fault of Spain's, rather our own as a community, so he does, I'm afraid, have a point- inconsistent with the parametres of AMW. China under Sino was too capable, especially since it had alienated almost the entire world. Perhaps co-operation between China and the HL could have built a couple of powerful economies, but because the HL keeps giving it the ol' drama queen bit and [hissy sucking sound through teeth] because Xiaguo's China... perhaps isn't played in a way really suitable for what AMW's trying to do, I haven't really seen that happen.

I think that we still have some pretty big problems to resolve in AMW.

Perhaps I'm just never satisfied, I dunno.

(Certainly that attitude from Mac. is not conducive to any sort of progress, and if AMW is to resolve anything or make any progress, it will have to do it without players who, er, take such positions.)

Oh, and I think that maybe we ought to establish a requirement for AMW membership in future:

Dude, chill the fuck out.

Yeah Mac and Quinntonia, everybody gets upset but don't just go be like that.

I wish Dra-pol were here to give his two cents. Where is that shady person?

But that's besides the point. As BG points out, nothing will get done without consensus and agreement, so it might be best to just put this whole issue aside for a moment and determine just what can and can't be done in the AMW context by, oh, perhaps...a democratic vote? We could have a referendum!

Now Mac, nobody's doubting your abilities as a roleplayer, but Macabees in regular NS is hardly a struggling state. AMW was set up, I believe, really to eliminate massive advantages and technology empires. So its understandable you using such things as what you like and are familiar with from regular NS, just as I in regular NS use what I myself like to RP with. But AMW, in my mind, should really not be a place of massive success stories and huge militaries.

Indeed, the whole Portugal affair (partly by me) has been fairly poorly done out, and it might help to start from scratch for organization's sake. I'd say my biggest mistake was to market Hindustan as an international power when it is really just a regional influence, so you might in the future cross the HMDF off the list of major combatants.

On the subject of airplanes, well, the F-22 is all well and good, but this (http://www.ww2guide.com/beau_7.jpg) is my idea of an airplane.

On the subject of tanks, yeah I wouldn't necessarily say the Abrams is at the top of its game anymore, and that the Challenger 2 probably deserves the best tank title. But to come up with a tank that is not only better than but unquestionably dominant over the Abrams, from a country with zero experience in designing tanks, on the first try, is stretching it a bit.

I don't think you should leave Mac, just as Elkazor shouldn't have left, and we should all really try much better to not get so angry.

I admit, I was pretty antagonistic there, and as far as my fleet goes, I really could have RPed their deployment better. I mean, I could use the justification that I am only using those ships that are currently on patrol right now, and the secondary force that I mentioned is what needs to be gathered and deployed from Quinntonia proper. But, it was done far faster than any deployment I have ever done. I mean, the Bonstock deployment (granted like 5 times this size) was done over a group of about 25 posts and over three weeks real time. I just kind of did this in three posts over two days. I would be willing to say that Big Mac could do a great many actions and posts before I am able to bring my fleet to bear, but I am still coming with that fleet.

In short, I am willing to back off with the speed of my deployment, which could allow Mac to get a ways ahead of me, but he needs to explain a lot of stuff.

And Mac may understand the technolgy better than me, I never claimed to, but what many in AMW understand, and he does not, is politics, government, economics, and PEOPLE! I don't really have a clue what my aircraft carriers interceptors a REALLY capable of, but I know that in order to even have them, I need an industrial power large enough to make them, enough money to buy them, an economy that would support them, and a poeple that would work towards all of this happening.

AS for France, I thought he was a good RPer, but man,. how sensitive can you get! Claiming to wasting "Shakespeare on peasants!" His writing was not that good. But everyone needs to understand that AMW is a GAME, and you must interact with people you wouldn't otherwise in a meaningful manner in this game. I mean, BG and I represent extreme political ends of the spectrum, but we have co-existed for well over a two years in AMW, (even before it was called that) with no problem. Sure, we bicker back and forth, I occasionally pray for him while be rants and swears at me, but that is what competing governments do, that is the whole point. USSR and USA. Nuff said.

In regards to the game being set up to my advanrage, you are right, I play one of the worlds superpowers, and as such have a great amouint of power and influence. But Quinntonia has not taken over any nations, or invaded anyone, or really gets involved at all in many things, it just kind of sits there most of the time. IN fact, originally, I claimed Canada. That was all. But Hudecia got it first, and we felt that he was just better at playing it than I would have been. (The Arcraft Carrier the Ralph Klien, springs to mind LOL!)
I ended up with the USA almost by happenstance. But I am not the most powerful power, I am maybe one of the top three, maybe I do have an easier time justifying my power-base with RL stats, but I compete with China and BG for the top spot. WE represent a balance of power and always have.

As for small nations not being able to compete, I call bullshit, I have one word for you; DRA-POL!
That little nation is my worst enemy, and has killed more Quinntonians than WWI and WWII combined!

The beauty of a little nation is that you must work within patnerships of slowly start to build power, it almost more freeing than the big ones, because if Quinntonian even farts, everyone has an opinion on it.

WWJD
Amen.

So, has Spain left the game?

I don't assume he'll get back to us on this...

HAH! I am sooo vindicated here! HA HA HA! You see, Mac, how the lefties and grotesque Quits force out every single person who poses a threat to their status quo, by damn good RP that they are simply incapable of responding to.

I think we need a new RPing group, away from those down syndrome babies, where extraordinary SL's and fantastic plots are not called 'moding' but the cutting edge. I am forced to finish Restoration France for the sake of my being a gentleman, but when thats done I think we have uber-adequate material to blow this affirmative action laden sow out of the water. Ive long been dissapointed with the quality of AMW rp, which is certainly not the best RP group in AMW, and is just a forum for self-validating egoism and numbers games of its evangelical and drug stupored members.

Hey Quit! I said "wasting Shakespeare on third world convalesent home dwellers!" If you were in my class, Id give your manners an C-, your bibliography a F, and refer you back to the junior/community college from whence you came. Not that good? I alone of all bloody AMW am published in a professional field, academically to boot, and have accomplished the highest honors of University by the age of 28, including gearing up for a tenure track!
Get stuffed!

Anyway MAC, I say your good people. Drop me a line with AC, Royce, Doom, UE and the UK so we can get a new RP group started. Perhaps alter history 19th century? Anyway, I still enjoy RP, but AMW makes my skin crawl!

I stand ready to respond to you bloggers and back room critics, take AMW (by which I mean BG, LRR, and Quittonba) and go rule yourselves into staticticity.

A gentleman wouldn't behave like that, Elkazor, unless you mean simply the kind of gent who is born into it and through heredity retains the designation regardless of his deportment. My own treatment of this farcical affair has not been gentlemanly, but then I have never arrogantly pretended to be a gentleman; your approach has been still worse, and yet you persist in delusional attempts to elevate yourself to some pompous position to which you have no reasonable claim.

It's all a little sad, don't you think?

Again I feel compelled to state that, inspite of your indirect accusations and still enduring insinuations about an imagined climate of Out-Of-Character protectionism through which you imagine yourself slighted, I certainly was not involved in insulting you via telegram to another. Perhaps I have since then and previous to this post expressed some derision!

As to your being published, ha! Dan Brown is published! Tom Clancey is published! One of my college lecturers was published! And I say that there's more intelligent convesation in Neo-Anarchos and more relevant insight in/from Spyr [further examples omitted to avoid labouring another point! I should further add that my indication of two specific players was not intended to drag them personally into this little fuss] than ever could be drawn from those professionals.

No less mistaken is your long-maintained quibble with our purportedly jealous defence of a status quo that exists only in the sensitive imaginings of your delicate Faberge-original head. Really, if you observed half so keenly and interperated half so insightfully as we should apparently have come to expect from a fellow so refined and educated, I should think that you'd have noticed plenty of shifts indicating the flexibility of AMW.

Consider! In recent months: have I not removed BG's most powerful secret weapon, deleted her carrier battle fleets, and re-assessed the realistic priorities of my nation's driving force (its people/communes) as indicated by the limited spread of our highest military technologies through our forces? Has Lusaka not crippled its leader in both physical and mental capacities? Is Dra-pol -scourge of the Quinntonia you would have us believe invincible- not cast-out its super-hero leader and begun an attack on its own strength? Has Spyr not moved from introspective obscurity to the near silent architect of ideological rebirth for several percent of the world's population? Has Russia not changed? What of the Balkans and Aidarov's incompatability with any of AMW's dominant political forces? Do you expect to see Lavrageria's towel -sorry, silk handkerchief- thrown-in because neither Belarus nor Yugoslavia prove capable of global conquest? I doubt it.

Your writing may be technically capable and moderately in-depth in descriptive terms, but your subject matter is unoriginal and plots not striking for cleverness or insight. These are not things that I should normally expect to see myself typing for the attention of a competent writer such as yourself, but you invite it, sir, if not out-right demand it with stamping foot!

Perhaps you will answer with an attack on my own writing, which would be beside the point; or perhaps with an irrelvent defence based on some triumph outside our context, but this would only satisfly my unhappy conclusion in respect of your character. If you should reply otherwise, and feel satisfied at surprising me, that, I would be forced to admit, is splendid.







(All that being said, I'm very much tempted to say instead, "I agree with LRR!" for his decision to delete whatever response he was initially compelled to put and to leave well alone! But then, I happily restate, I am not a gentleman!)

Your saving grace, BG, is your being an Englishman. It betrays a sort of elegance that liberalism cannot ever destroy.

Forgive my utter vitriol, so I might make clear I mentioned both you and LRR in passing as negative entities, and I apologize if it seems I am beating a drum: my vitriol was rather to be directed at Quit, for his earlier words and statements which had nothng to do with you.

Nevertheless I maintain I was not after world domination, it would be impossible for France to do so either in reality or AMW. I was simply dismissed as a moder, something to which I could argue against but simply will not. The same then happened to Maccabee, and the similarity is vivid. Both were restoring European nations, slammed as having impossible technologies and budgets by the yankee's.

Indeed, when you and I crossed swords on the virtual champ de mars I think we handeled it quite well, steps and all included. It only stopped when Quit started bellowing about this and that.

In conclusion I did not mean to toot my own horn. I suppose, in some Freudian way, I was trying to justify my RP with RL achievements, which doesnt I suppose fly too well. Other than that, I stand by what I said, save I did not mean to include either you or LRR in an angry so much as objective manner. Derision has never bothered me in any setting before,sir, and it will not phase me in the future.

But invitations which hint at splendid responses should never be ignored, thats how I got married.

Stuff elegance and manners, Elkazor. You're a stupid cur whose delusions of grandeur are unfitting for someone who couldn't think up a decent storyline to save your life; for all your pretty language and posturing.

As BG states, if you can't see the flexibility and RP potential of AMW, then good riddance - I've had it with elitist scumbags such as yourself.

Regards,
Tias(Neo-Anarchos, Tiastan, African Commonwealth etc.)

Elitist? You dare call us elitist when you witness it and say nothing about it within the role plays of Quintonnia, BG and Spyr? What really struck me as rude was the fact that I released details about those fleets two months prior to this last roleplay, in its own thread, with no other comments to distract your eyes from it. And yet, none said anything, and until I threatened with the fleet, because I threatened to annex a neighbor, then Quintonnia grows the balls to begin to bicker out of character about something he should have complained about two months prior to the role play.

Elkazor's achievements nonwithstanding, your own writins are hardly 'imaginative' and 'your own'. If insulting each other on writing is besides the point, then why do you bring on the topic by insulting Elkazor, is it that you yourself cannot think of a revelant topic in order to truly insult another player?

Regardless, this is of no importance and I suggest the Elkazor just respectfully unsubscribe from this thread like I did, and just end this once and for all. There is absolutely no point to continue these arguments, as they will have no revelence for our immediate future as role players.

[This was supposed to be posted yesterday, but the forums were down, and now I can't seem to log-in with the Anglicised Beth Gellert]

Mh, right, well, thanks, I think...

I still rather think that you took offence too easily when eyebrows were raised over, in particular, the super battleships. I can't remember who said what, exactly, but it is quite possible that some didn't so much raise eyebrows as fire blunderbusses, but it is after this point that I become a little lost.
I don't think that I would have quit if somebody called BG's strategic-grade WIGs a godmod (perhaps they would have done, had I deployed them in a major RP, or perhaps you have something of a point about protection of the group's IC bigshots. One can only speculate) or curtly told me that Jharkhand's population wouldn't embrace Commonwealth as I claimed. Though I might have started an OOC argument on the second point and perhaps not taken it all that gracefully, but I just don't see that I would have caused this much drama. Maybe that's what strikes me, too much drama. I'd rather have a cup of tea. (And maybe watch this Dogtanian DVD. I love that little Muskehound.)

As to Spain's departure, I can't help feeling that maybe Mac. grew too fat on recognition in certain fields while outside AMW and didn't like the transition from big-fish/small-pond to small-fish/big-pond. I mean, that's the impression he's left me with, for whatever it matters. That and he appears to have invented a few mysterious statistics for the sake of an argument. Meh, as they say.

Anyway, things have changed an awful lot. Battleplans never survive the first shots and AMW's charts were pretty vague to begin with. Perhaps we need to go and lay-out where everyone and everything stands? Who's in and who's out? Who can and who can't? Specifically, since it has been a problem, I think, for several people, once and for all, the industrial and technological strength of the USQ compared to the USA, and, if I dare say this the China player issue.

Listen, your concerns; even if they were legitimate, mean fuck-all because you(that goes for the both of you, Elkazor and Macabees) intentionally try to disrupt the game continuity of AMW. No matter how great we imagine ourselves to be, the cohesion and fun of the game must go on.

You godmod, and when we call you on it, you freak out. You state that economic and diplomatic roleplay is important, yet work largely around it and start wars. You claim AMW is power-oriented and rigid, yet ignore the fact that we are all scaling back, acknowledging criticism from yourself among others.

As I said, good riddance. I'm sure you can find people to play with, so why hang around and get on our nerves?