NationStates Jolt Archive

The Tachyon News Service logo flahses on screen then swithces to a young women standing in the majestic Hall of Parmilent.

"This is Linda Johnson reporting for Tachyon News Service here at Parliment in New Planetfall where we are waiting for the Confederate parliment to release its statement on the death of infulential leader and famed "Jedi Knight" Daniel Masaki's death.

"While this is old news in his home galaxy we here in Xessmithia have just received the news brought back on a trans-galactic freighter that was making a delivery of the extremely expensive stable super-heavy element Herculium* for the Inter-Galactic Banking Clan.

"While we wait for the Prime Minister's statement let's watch the transmitted events of Mr. Masaki's death."

The vision switches to a view of Daniel Masaki calling down the lightning followed by an orbital view of the fireball.

Johnson comes back on screen, "Physicists and military high energy weapon specialists have told us the explosion generated by Mr. Masaki was equivalent to a fifty megaton nuclear explosion." Johnson holds her fingers to ear, "It appears that Prime Minister Helen Juxton is now making her statement. We will have commentary from several specialists when it is complete."

The screen now switches to a middle aged woman standing up from her seat. "To the people of Xessmithia and to the inter-galactic community this parliment has come to a difficult decission. We hereby officially and posthumously condemn Daniel Masaki for his actions that lead to his death. His means of suicide in producing a multi-megaton explosion on the hyper-urbanized world of Coruscant have made him the worst individual mass murderer ever known. His last act has killed an estimated 8.2 billion innocent sapients and wounded trillions more.

"This has shown Daniel Masaki to be no better than the people of evil he claimed to be fighting. That he would willingly commit an act that would kill billions of sapients to serve his own ends has shown him to be heartless and selfish. While it is true that the organization he was fighting was not benign, its innocent civillians that he senselesly slaughtered deserved no such fate." Juxton had to force the last sentence out through tears. She snivelled and forced out one more sentence, "May he burn in hell for the act he has committed."

The screen cuts to a view of a wreath of roses with the message, "Please take a moment of silence to honor the innocents who were unjustly killed by Daniel Masaki."

*Pronounced her-que-LEE-um

Linda Johnson stood with Professor Zachary Ford one of the most well known Professors in Xessmithia, "Professor Ford what do you think about the Prime Minister's statements?"

Ford, a man in his late 30s, answered immediately, "Oh I agree with it one-hundred percent. What he did was a suprememly evil act, and for what gain? From the history of his galaxy it seems extremely likely that the Empire or Imperial Republic or whatever it's being called now,"

Johnson interupted, "Shouldn't a professor of your reputation know what it's called?"

Ford blushed, "Yes I should, and I try it's just that it I've never been good with names. Anyway back to my point. It's very likely that that organization will continue being malevolent in the future despite Masaki's so called "heroic sacrafice" in the future."

"But itsn't it a good thing that the evil dictators of the, for what we will call Empire for now, were killed?"

"Oh certainly. But that by no means justifies the slaughter of billions of innocents. Especially since from what we know of Masaki's powers he could have simply induced a current in the Imperial Palace killing all within by eletrocution. Innocent civillian deaths would be far less likely if he had done so, and we have seen nothing that points to that being out side of his abilities."

"And what about the reaction from the people of CoreWorlds, his homeland?"

Ford snorted, "You mean the people who look at his last action and call him a hero for it. If they can call that act of mass murder good then I sure as hell wouldn't want to see what they would call evil." Ford paused, "Though it seems to me that the people of CoreWorlds have been brainwashed by the Cordian nobility and Jedi Order to assume that anything done by a Jedi is automatically good. They have very little in the ways of critical thought when it comes to the Jedi."

"Very interesting Professor Ford." Johnson said and Ford nodded, "Stay tuned to TNS for more on this story."

OOC: Come on, I know that someone has to have an opinion on this :D

This message was sent through a hyperlink from The Planet Federations Prime Minister after hearing of the explosion.


-------------------BEGIN TRANSMISSION--------------

Although we are not firm believers in the Jedi Order (Although it is growing popularity within our planets) We see this act of killing millions if not billions of people for no reason not as a act of patriotism. But as an act of terror. We denounce Daniel Masaki's actions and see them as just another attack on a free way of life.

Prime Minister
Ricky Hanekamp
The Planet Federation

----------------------END TRANSMISSION-------------

The Godulan Terran Affairs Ministry would like to inquire where the Xessmithian government got these numbers from, as we would understand if the casualty reports were acquired from a stoned chimpanzee playing with a calculator.

We would also recommend to those who seek to condemn his final act that they spend more time paying attention to the facts rather than estimating casualty reports for an explosion several magnitudes of power stronger than what actually took place.

The explosion only affected an area estimated at approximately one kilometer across, barely even capable of reaching outside the compound perimeter, and focused much of its energy into an electromagnetic pulse intended to wipe out nearby shield generators.

While our numbers are estimates as well, our casualty figures rest at approximately several hundred thousand individuals, dominated by several legions of clone troopers, the galactic senate in league with Kar August, Kar August himself, and followed up lastly with a number of civilians numbering in the hundreds, which while regrettable, is nowhere NEAR as bloated an estimate as your bean counters have vomited out for you.

We would suggest to the Xessmithian government that it not make such over-arching statements of condemnation, particularly with respect to hurling out tremendously overblown numbers. Fifty megatons?! What are you THINKING? That would take out half the planet!

Words are what you speak.

Words of NOTHING.

~Sirzan Aktei, Triad Consortium Terran Affairs Chancellor

OOC: Edited to take into account Unified Sith's casualty reports which were also somewhat overblown due to the fact that they were just starting to figure out how much damage masaki's blast actually did. Edited AGAIN to account for CWs description of how much power went where...

This message was sent through a hyperlink from The Planet Federations Prime Minister after hearing of the explosion.


-------------------BEGIN TRANSMISSION--------------

Although we are not firm believers in the Jedi Order (Although it is growing popularity within our planets) We see this act of killing millions if not billions of people for no reason not as a act of patriotism. But as an act of terror. We denounce Daniel Masaki's actions and see them as just another attack on a free way of life.

Prime Minister
Ricky Hanekamp
The Planet Federation

----------------------END TRANSMISSION-------------


The Confederacy of Xessmithia thanks The Planet Federation for its support.

We can send aid workers to help in the aftermath of the explosion. And military equipment if nesseceary as well Please let us know. Were more than willing to help.

The Prime minister of The Planet federation
Ricky Hanekamp

[i]The Godulan Terran Affairs Ministry would like to inquire where the Xessmithian government got these numbers from, as we would understand if the casualty reports were acquired from a stoned chimpanzee playing with a calculator.

The Xessmithian goverment derived these casualty estimates from study of the event and the average population density of Coruscant.

We would also recommend to those who seek to condemn his final act that they spend more time paying attention to the facts rather than estimating casualty reports for an explosion several magnitudes of power stronger than what actually took place.

The explosion only affected an area estimated at approximately one kilometer across, barely even capable of reaching outside the compound perimeter, and focused much of its energy into an electromagnetic pulse intended to wipe out nearby shield generators.

Careful study of the explosion determined that the fireball produced was in fact approximately 4 kilometers in diamter and lasted for 26.2 seconds. These figures were taken from the orbital shot of the explosion which was very visible and lingering, as of such the explosion was equivalent to a 50 megaton explosion.

We also wish to inform you that the EMP produced by such an event would also shut down the nervous systems of all sapient beings within its blast radius and therefore kill them.

While our numbers are estimates as well, our casualty figures rest at approximately several hundred thousand individuals, dominated by several legions of clone troopers, the galactic senate in league with Kar August, Kar August himself, and followed up lastly with a number of civilians numbering in the hundreds, which while regrettable, is nowhere NEAR as bloated an estimate as your bean counters have vomited out for you.

Your estimated are flawed and are obviously the result of Coredian propaganda. Any nuclear level event on a hyper-urbanized world like Coruscant will kill millions of people by direct contact with the fireball, billions will die of secondary effects and trillions will be wounded and billions more will die of their wounds.

We would suggest to the Xessmithian government that it not make such over-arching statements of condemnation, particularly with respect to hurling out tremendously overblown numbers. Fifty megatons?! What are you THINKING? That would take out half the planet!

We regret that you are sorely lacking in any military or scientific training and are such a victom of Coredian propaganda that you actually think a fifty megaton explosion will "take out half the planet". It would take millions of times more energy than fifty megatons to take out half of a planet.

Words are what you speak.

Words of NOTHING.

And we regret that you and your nation are such pawns to Coredian propaganda.


OOC: Edited to take into account Unified Sith's casualty reports which were also somewhat overblown due to the fact that they were just starting to figure out how much damage masaki's blast actually did. Edited AGAIN to account for CWs description of how much power went where...

OOC: US apparently under-estimated his casualty estimates. I suggest he uses mine for more dramatic purposes. And CW knows not what would happen when you realease nuclear scale levels of energy, he thinks that because it was "electrical based" that he wouldn't get a massive explosion. He is wrong. And from the desctiption of the explosion he wrote my yield estimation fits very well.

We can send aid workers to help in the aftermath of the explosion. And military equipment if nesseceary as well Please let us know. Were more than willing to help.

The Prime minister of The Planet federation
Ricky Hanekamp

Xessmithia currently has no capability to offer aid nor would any aid be helpful as this tragic event happened months ago and we just received word as we are in a different galaxy than Coruscant. Your offer is however greatly appreciated.

OOC: Actually, CW corrected US on the damage estimates after he posted his initials, saying that as the blast focused much of its energy as EMP, the explosion barely even qualified as nuclear level, but the EMP was significantly stronger.

The Xessmithian goverment derived these casualty estimates from study of the event and the average population density of Coruscant.

How interesting. We used the exact same footage.

Careful study of the explosion determined that the fireball produced was in fact approximately 4 kilometers in diamter and lasted for 26.2 seconds. These figures were taken from the orbital shot of the explosion which was very visible and lingering, as of such the explosion was equivalent to a 50 megaton explosion.

We also wish to inform you that the EMP produced by such an event would also shut down the nervous systems of all sapient beings within its blast radius and therefore kill them.

Again, how interesting. Nice lie. We used the exact same footage and found that the blast radius reached no further than 1km diameter.

Further, we would like to inquire as to which ten cent pamphlet about EMP bought from some guy in an alley was used to determine the effects of Electromagnetic Pulse on sentient neurosynaptic processes. As to date, the only adverse effect one would feel from an EMP would POSSIBLY be a minor headache.

Your estimated are flawed and are obviously the result of Coredian propaganda. Any nuclear level event on a hyper-urbanized world like Coruscant will kill millions of people by direct contact with the fireball, billions will die of secondary effects and trillions will be wounded and billions more will die of their wounds.

Our estimate was reached thirty seconds after the initial report was sent out over the holonet, even before the Coredians themselves had a chance to fully analyze the blast. One kilometer diameter area affected, only a few hundred thousand casualties, most of them clone troopers.

Secondary confirmations have also been arising on the holonet more in line with our assertions. It is only too bad that you are too distant to read THAT.

We regret that you are sorely lacking in any military or scientific training and are such a victom of Coredian propaganda that you actually think a fifty megaton explosion will "take out half the planet". It would take millions of times more energy than fifty megatons to take out half of a planet.

An exaggeration, granted. However, your estimates of the affected area is also flawed, in the particular issue that a 50 megaton blast would destroy far more of the urbanized landscape than the already overblown 4.3km you already posited. Rough estimates of a 50 MT blast on Coruscant would put the radius of destruction at around 60 to 100 km.

The destructive radius is very obviously nowhere near this number.

And we regret that you and your nation are such pawns to Coredian propaganda.

And we regret that your analysis teams are dumber than bricks.

OOC: Actually, CW corrected US on the damage estimates after he posted his initials, saying that as the blast focused much of its energy as EMP, the explosion barely even qualified as nuclear level, but the EMP was significantly stronger.

OOC: As mentioned previously, if you release that much energy you will get an explosion regardless of what method was used to deliver said energy. And given the description as it being DM's most powerful bolt ever, that it was visible from orbit(which isn't really impressive since even ordinary lightning is visible from orbit so it makes sense that it is visible in orbit for some time like say 26.2 seconds). And since it was said to be DM's most powerful and he has released ~10 kt level bolts before without too much effort I don't find it a stretch to increase it to the megaton range for his most powerful ever dying blast.

Where the blast actually "barely nuclear" and contained a complete blast radius of 1 km it would be about 1 kiloton, which DM could do in his sleep and would hardly be his most powerful one ever.


IC:


Again, how interesting. Nice lie. We used the exact same footage and found that the blast radius reached no further than 1km diameter.

You must have watched the braille version then as they fireball itself is clearly greater than 1km in diamter.

Further, we would like to inquire as to which ten cent pamphlet about EMP bought from some guy in an alley was used to determine the effects of Electromagnetic Pulse on sentient neurosynaptic processes. As to date, the only adverse effect one would feel from an EMP would POSSIBLY be a minor headache.

Perhaps the schools of Godular would like to purchase some of our outdated high school biology textbooks so that they may learn something about the way brains function. You see a large EMP would cause the delicate electro-chemical balance in a sapient brain to be disrupted thus shutting down its functions including autonomic functions such as keeping the respiratory and circulatory systems working. This would of course kill the being unless given immediate aid, which would be unavailable in this scenario due to the large spread area of effect.



Our estimate was reached thirty seconds after the initial report was sent out over the holonet, even before the Coredians themselves had a chance to fully analyze the blast. One kilometer diameter area affected, only a few hundred thousand casualties, most of them clone troopers.

Then it seems your quick and dirty calculations are incorect. Hardly surprsing given your displayed lack of basic scientific knowledge.

Secondary confirmations have also been arising on the holonet more in line with our assertions. It is only too bad that you are too distant to read THAT.

The same holonet that would be filled with Coredian propaganda making Mr. Masaki out to be a hero. Of course there would be "confirmations" that keep the public from seeing the true extent of this so called hero's last act.



An exaggeration, granted. However, your estimates of the affected area is also flawed, in the particular issue that a 50 megaton blast would destroy far more of the urbanized landscape than the already overblown 4.3km you already posited. Rough estimates of a 50 MT blast on Coruscant would put the radius of destruction at around 60 to 100 km.

The destructive radius is very obviously nowhere near this number.

We were dealing the primary fireball seen on the recording. That is what is 4.3 km in diameter, the actual area of heavy destruction and wide-spread fatalaties does indeed have a radius close to what you described.



And we regret that your analysis teams are dumber than bricks.[/i]

It is a shame that you feel that way as they are obviously more intelligent than you.

OOC: Here's the issue though. YOU'RE not the one who can determine how big the blast was. Coreworlds is. So quit trying to push your version through.

I am making the estimate based on Unified Sith's casualty reports, tempered by CWs addendum. Unified Sith gave an estimate of the damage, and Coreworlds corrected him by saying that the blast was nowhere near THAT powerful, due to the fact that he focused most of the energy on the EMP.

And where in the blue heck did you see that Darth Maul could hurl Nuke bolts? I read AND watched the Phantom Menace and I saw no mention whatsoever of such a concept. Unless you can provide a link, you and yer 'source' are just blowing smoke on that one.

He had a satori that led into Shiningurai. So he actually was completly the opposite of selfish, he was more selfless.

OOC: Here's the issue though. YOU'RE not the one who can determine how big the blast was. Coreworlds is. So quit trying to push your version through.

But here's the kicker, his version makes no bloody sense. When he describes Masaki's death he uses phrases like the following:
I built up energy beyond my body's ability to handle it
"largest ball of electricity ever seen in the galaxy",
"The nuclear-level explosion could be seen from space,"
It was an explosion of light and energy of the likes which never will be seen again
The huge mushroom cloud rose triumphant over the Imperial Palace.

Obviosly this is a massive event far beyond what he can safely pull. And we've seen him safely pull ~10 kt events in the battlefield. It makes no sense for an "explosion of light and energy of the likes which will be seen again" to be less powerful than the stuff he can pull easily on the battlefield.

I am making the estimate based on Unified Sith's casualty reports, tempered by CWs addendum. Unified Sith gave an estimate of the damage, and Coreworlds corrected him by saying that the blast was nowhere near THAT powerful, due to the fact that he focused most of the energy on the EMP.

In his description CW said the following on the EMP

The electrical oversurge would short out every Force inhibitor on Coruscant, rendering them useless. It would consume Kar August, as I promised, and his many clonetroopers. It will EMP just about every shield generator on the planet, and it would short out the statis field entraping my brothers. It may even overload electrical generators

That is a planet wide EMP. To produce such an EMP would require much more than the 50 megaton explosion I am working with and would kill far more people.

And where in the blue heck did you see that Darth Maul could hurl Nuke bolts? I read AND watched the Phantom Menace and I saw no mention whatsoever of such a concept. Unless you can provide a link, you and yer 'source' are just blowing smoke on that one.

Yes because I am such an idiot that in a debate about Daniel Masaki I would bring up Darth Maul :rolleyes:

He had a satori that led into Shiningurai. So he actually was completly the opposite of selfish, he was more selfless.

The Prime Minister responded quickly, "Any man who is responsible for which millions of sapient'ss death because of his poorly conceived last act is not selfless. He deserves no praise."

Use full names please. Masaki, Daniel, whatever. DM could mean any number of things. Daniel Masaki, Darth Maul, Denmark, Don't Mail. Granted I whiffed on the connection, but acronyms are just annoying...

Moot issue aside: You're still not the one allowed to decide how powerful the blast is. That avenue of reasoning is closed to you. Access denied. Authorized personnel only. Verboten. Nyet. Now if CW were actually able to show up more than a once or twice a week basis, he might be able to give a more precise detailing of the exact blast. Until then... ixnay.

Use full names please. Masaki, Daniel, whatever. DM could mean any number of things. Daniel Masaki, Darth Maul, Denmark, Don't Mail. Granted I whiffed on the connection, but acronyms are just annoying...

Moot issue aside: You're still not the one allowed to decide how powerful the blast is. That avenue of reasoning is closed to you. Access denied. Authorized personnel only. Verboten. Nyet. Now if CW were actually able to show up more than a once or twice a week basis, he might be able to give a more precise detailing of the exact blast. Until then... ixnay.

Aned yet he agreed with me when I made an ultraconservative estimate in the Facing Death With Courage (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=415557&page=2) thread.

The Imperium congratulates Xessmithia on this action and opinion; though we have had our disagreements in the past, we can stand united on the treacherous, selfish and ultimately terrorist actions of Daniel Masaki, no better than a suicide bomber of old Earth.

OOC: Yet in your estimate only around 3 million people died (conservative), and from what I can tell he agreed with you on those numbers. Why the sudden boost by several orders of magnitude? Yes, it is a hyperindustrialized world, but it also took place in the imperial palace, which is a pretty big place in itself, and unless the imperials have suddenly let security fall by the wayside, I would suspect that there isn't anybody living underneath it.

That being said, the maximum I would be willing to accept is Unified Sith's estimate of 12 million dead. Still condemnable, but at least reasonable.

OOC: Yet in your estimate only around 3 million people died (conservative), and from what I can tell he agreed with you on those numbers. Why the sudden boost by several orders of magnitude?

Because it was hugely unrealistic. For my later estimated I took into account the 3-D nature of Coruscant's city and used a far more reasonable population density of 4e6 people per km^3. I also used a larger explosion as I think it fits better than a 1 megaton explosion does. Especially as a 1 MT explosion wouldn't take out the entire palace as CW stated it did unless it was buried near the base of it. Which Daniel wasn't near.

Yes, it is a hyperindustrialized world, but it also took place in the imperial palace, which is a pretty big place in itself, and unless the imperials have suddenly let security fall by the wayside, I would suspect that there isn't anybody living underneath it.

I think on a world like Coruscant Paply knew he couldn't keep people from living under his palace and just made his bottom out of starship armor or some such and just heavily patrols the one or two levels under it.

That being said, the maximum I would be willing to accept is Unified Sith's estimate of 12 million dead. Still condemnable, but at least reasonable.

The maximum for me is what I've already posted, my minimum is 1.7 billion dead and 226.2 wounded based off of a 10 megaton 3D explosion.

The Imperium congratulates Xessmithia on this action and opinion; though we have had our disagreements in the past, we can stand united on the treacherous, selfish and ultimately terrorist actions of Daniel Masaki, no better than a suicide bomber of old Earth.

The Confederacy thanks Chronosia for its show of support for our decisions.

OOC How about we talk to CW first bring him into this. I mean not all nuclear blasts have a large radius some could be focused such would be the power of pure energy and the Force. I mean a mushroom cloud is essentially fire and dust. Heres an example: have you ever watched Terminator 3 when Arnold throws out the damaged power cell and it creates a small thermonuclear explosion it just depends on how big the bomb is ya know. Also a Class-A Thermodetonator in Star Wars could level the Imperial palace. All I ask is that you include CW in this and ask for a more thorough explanation from him.

OOC How about we talk to CW first bring him into this. I mean not all nuclear blasts have a large radius some could be focused such would be the power of pure energy and the Force. I mean a mushroom cloud is essentially fire and dust. Heres an example: have you ever watched Terminator 3 when Arnold throws out the damaged power cell and it creates a small thermonuclear explosion it just depends on how big the bomb is ya know. Also a Class-A Thermodetonator in Star Wars could level the Imperial palace. All I ask is that you include CW in this and ask for a more thorough explanation from him.

The point wasn't that it was a mushroom cloud, the point was that it was a HUGE mushroom cloud, hence it was a large explosion.

Also Daniel DIED before the full effect of the Nova Bolt occured which means he was no longer influencing it through the force which means it would behave as I have described it.

Also the Class-A took out Xizor's palace and it was able to do so because it was burried in the structure and took out the supports. I would expect that the Imperial palace has more robust foundations. However Daniel wasn't in the middle of the palace near a critical support column, he destroyed it through brute force.

One I just finished reading Shadows of the Empire for the sixth time and it said that on the Twentieth level it would have taken out Xizor's Palace. However Luke did not have a Class-A detonator he was bluffing. Thats why Lando dropped one down the chute that was the only way to take the palace out. And just because a Jedi dies does not mean he cannot still influence the Force. When a Jedi dies he can become one with the Force like Ben Kenobi did and Yoda and Anakin and Anakin. A Jedi can even become one with the Force without dying like Jacen did. And as I said even a huge mushroom cloud could belong to a smaller balst than you estimated all it would have to do is kick the debris and dust up high enough. 3 million was reasonable but 8.2 I think you are underestimating the Force a bit.

One I just finished reading Shadows of the Empire for the sixth time and it said that on the Twentieth level it would have taken out Xizor's Palace. However Luke did not have a Class-A detonator he was bluffing. Thats why Lando dropped one down the chute that was the only way to take the palace out.

Thank you for confirming what I said in my last post.

And just because a Jedi dies does not mean he cannot still influence the Force. When a Jedi dies he can become one with the Force like Ben Kenobi did and Yoda and Anakin and Anakin.

Yeah and that's why Obi-Wan totally pwned Darth Vader after he had his head chopped off. :rolleyes:

A Jedi can even become one with the Force without dying like Jacen did.

Which made him more powerful while he was you know, still alive.

And as I said even a huge mushroom cloud could belong to a smaller balst than you estimated all it would have to do is kick the debris and dust up high enough.

And your example was a computer generated cloud from an action movie, that's a high source for scientific accuracy all right :rolleyes: . A better example of low scale mushroom clouds is footage from when the US bombed Baghdad. They were maybe 100 stories high tops, the fact of the matter is it would take a large explosion to make a large mushroom cloud. And a 50 megaton explosion would do that, it would also fit the rest of the information given by CW regarding Masaki's death.

3 million was reasonable but 8.2 I think you are underestimating the Force a bit.

And I think you and CW and well every other Force using nation is wanking to it, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that Daniel died losing control of his blast, which has to be large to fit the evidence, and in so doing killed hundreds of millions of people.

Transmission to the Government of Xessmithia

True Jedi Master Master Xeth Cortas (http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/reviews/920194_20040504_screen004.jpg) stood in front of the leaders of this government and said, "I am here to tell you that the True Jedi hold Daniel Masaki in high regard and offer him many of the awards of Dratheria should his kin accept them on his behalf. He destroyed an evil that could have engulfed the galaxy and died nobley we not only honor him as Jedi but also as Dratherians and servants of both the Force and the Creator. We ask that you halty your condemmings because what he did was a noble deed although many might have died they also died an honorable death although they may have died through no choice of their own with their deaths came the death of a great evil. Should you have a problem with this judgement contact us immediatley. Thank you and have a nice day."

End Transmission

OOC Alright now hundreds of millions is overstating it quite a bit and it is scientific fact that a mushroom cloud is debris, dust, and flames. But I was using that as an example that nuclear explosions can be smal or controlled. Alright I'm not wanking it I'm just saying that the Force is what binds everything and there are different ways of becoming one with the Force Obi-wan did it so he could help Luke become more powerful because he couldn't beat Vader. And the reason Lando had to drop it down a chute was because it wasn't a Class-A it was prolly a Class-C or B. Also Jacen didn't die it was Anakin Solo that did but Jacen didn't because he could control it. Also I was saying a Class-A thermodetonator could be used to destroy a palace the size of Xizor's which was almost the same size as Palpatine's and it probably would just take two Class-A's maximum to destroy the Emperor's. Ok but lets leave this discussion off till we can talk to CW to get more information on that blast. I mean it would be good to get his point of view on this topic. Otherwise your are just demeaning another good NS RPer. Ill be on for another 10 minutes then I gotta go to bed gunna go see Episode 3 with a couple of friends tommorrow. I'd take my gf but she has Drill tommorrow and mine is in a couple of weeks.

Transmission to the Government of Xessmithia

True Jedi Master Master Xeth Cortas (http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/reviews/920194_20040504_screen004.jpg) stood in front of the leaders of this government and said, "I am here to tell you that the True Jedi hold Daniel Masaki in high regard and offer him many of the awards of Dratheria should his kin accept them on his behalf. He destroyed an evil that could have engulfed the galaxy and died nobley we not only honor him as Jedi but also as Dratherians and servants of both the Force and the Creator. We ask that you halty your condemmings because what he did was a noble deed although many might have died they also died an honorable death although they may have died through no choice of their own with their deaths came the death of a great evil. Should you have a problem with this judgement contact us immediatley. Thank you and have a nice day."

End Transmission


Your attempts will to silence us are in vain, for we will speak out on what is right and what is wrong. Daniel Masaki's last act was not a noble deed, far from it. What he did is different only in scale from a crazed vigilante killing dozens by planting a bomb on a bus to kill one murderer. Were Masaki alive we would demand he be brought to justice for this and other crimes he has commited in his and his family's quest for vigilante justice.

It is sad that you are so blinded that you fail to see the evil of this deed and in fact call it good. We hope in time you see the error of your ways.

Signed,
Confederate Parliment.

OOC Alright now hundreds of millions is overstating it quite a bit

No it's not. The simple matter is that on a hyper-urbanized world like Coruscant any nuclear level event is going to kill millions, a large one like this one has to be in order to fit all the evidence would kill hundreds of millions and even billions.

and it is scientific fact that a mushroom cloud is debris, dust, and flames.

Which is carried aloft because the air it is in is hotter and therefore less dense than the surrounding air. When this hot rising air hits the altitude at which their density's are equal it spreads out forming the mushroom shape. Now in order to heat all that air up to carry all that debris kilometers up takes large nuclear scale explosions.


But I was using that as an example that nuclear explosions can be smal or controlled.

Yes they can be small and controlled, but this one wouldn't have been because he DIED and lost control of it.

Alright I'm not wanking it I'm just saying that the Force is what binds everything and there are different ways of becoming one with the Force Obi-wan did it so he could help Luke become more powerful because he couldn't beat Vader.

Exactly, all he could do was to help Luke get stronger by telling him to go see Yoda. He couldn't actually affect the phsyical plane more than that.


And the reason Lando had to drop it down a chute was because it wasn't a Class-A it was prolly a Class-C or B.

No, he had to drop it down the chute so it would be more likely to hit something important because blowing a hole in the side of the palace would have done jack shit.


Also Jacen didn't die it was Anakin Solo that did but Jacen didn't because he could control it.

I phrased it wrong, it should be "Which made him more powerful because he was still alive."

Also I was saying a Class-A thermodetonator could be used to destroy a palace the size of Xizor's which was almost the same size as Palpatine's and it probably would just take two Class-A's maximum to destroy the Emperor's.

According to the Essential Guide to Weapons&Technology a Class-A thermal detonator has a blast radius of 20 meters, which means everything within 20 meters of it is vaporized. Unless that gets a support column or some other critical piece of the palace that isn't taking it down.


but lets leave this discussion off till we can talk to CW to get more information on that blast. I mean it would be good to get his point of view on this topic. Otherwise your are just demeaning another good NS RPer.

I'm not demeaning him, I just think he's drastically undercutting the casualties by orders of magnitude to avoid making Daniel a mass murderer.


Ill be on for another 10 minutes then I gotta go to bed gunna go see Episode 3 with a couple of friends tommorrow. I'd take my gf but she has Drill tommorrow and mine is in a couple of weeks.

RotS is a kick ass movie, and I really don't give a damn about you and girlfriends Drills or social lives.

CW agreed with your estimates, and neither of them, the conservative or 'more realistic' elements, breached 1 billion. I honestly don't give a crap if the estimates WERE 'highly unrealistic' they were the ones you gave him, and those were the ones he agreed with. Just because he agreed with one does not give you carte blanche to amp up the death toll all willy nilly.

Besides, you seen the size of the imperial palace in Episode III? The joint's HUGE! And tall, to boot. Wiping it out WOULD have required an enormous amount of power, but I honestly doubt it would have wiped out much else except in the event of shrapnel.

In other words. Twelve million. Max. You change yer estimate, I change my statements.

The murder and slaughter of thousands of innocents is intolerable to the Galactic Empire, this has only strengthened the emperors will to hunt down and destroy every last Jedi. We are glad that the nation of Xessmithia has seen the evil and threat the Jedi pose to Galactic security.

Daniel Masaki is one of the Empires greatest mass murderers and as a result revenge will be swift.

OOC: Okay guys, I think I’ll settle this. Coreworlds explosion was not like any normal nuke, (Put it down to the force) the palace was quite properly fried, well a good portion of it, and the surrounding areas. However….. Coruscant, although its heavily built up (with a population density far greater than that of Hong Kong) the Imperial PalacePalace is in the government district which is sparsely populated with residential accommodation. However, Coreworlds ECM pulse will have killed millions, all those traffic cars suddenly shutting down, power stations detonating, energy spikes form controls, the death toll runs into the millions but not the billions.

Civilian damage would have been low proportionally however he has killed many, therefore negating the one thing I could not defeat of Coreworlds, his moral superiority. With that I could never have removed his international support, but now he is no better than the Empire he seeks to destroy.

The Imperium calls for the further culling of all Jedi and the extermination of traitorous members of the Masaki Clan.
As we understand it, Fiona Masaki has remained loyal to the Empire, and as a result, should be congratulated on her steadfast devotion.

The murder and slaughter of thousands of innocents is intolerable to the Galactic Empire, this has only strengthened the emperors will to hunt down and destroy every last Jedi. We are glad that the nation of Xessmithia has seen the evil and threat the Jedi pose to Galactic security.

Daniel Masaki is one of the Empires greatest mass murderers and as a result revenge will be swift.

While we often disagree with the actions of your government we are greatly sorry for the loss of so many of your citizens. Despite that the tragic event occured months ago we would like to help in any way possible.

The Imperium calls for the further culling of all Jedi and the extermination of traitorous members of the Masaki Clan.
As we understand it, Fiona Masaki has remained loyal to the Empire, and as a result, should be congratulated on her steadfast devotion.


While Daniel Masaki's act was indeed evil that is no reason to destroy all other Jedi or to kill the remaining members of his family. Their actions past and present should be investigated to warrant if any of them deserve punishment.

CW agreed with your estimates, and neither of them, the conservative or 'more realistic' elements, breached 1 billion. I honestly don't give a crap if the estimates WERE 'highly unrealistic' they were the ones you gave him, and those were the ones he agreed with. Just because he agreed with one does not give you carte blanche to amp up the death toll all willy nilly.

Neither of those estimates were realisticm one was a conservative lower limit, the other was a conservative upper limit. The true number HAD to be larger than that lower limit.

Besides, you seen the size of the imperial palace in Episode III? The joint's HUGE! And tall, to boot. Wiping it out WOULD have required an enormous amount of power, but I honestly doubt it would have wiped out much else except in the event of shrapnel.

If you mean the big mushroom shaped thing, you should know that's the Senate building not the Imperial Palace, which likely hasn't even been built yet.

In other words. Twelve million. Max. You change yer estimate, I change my statements.

I'm working on a new estimate regarding EMP damage based off of magnetic fields and induced current. My results will be later in this post.



OOC: Okay guys, I think I’ll settle this. Coreworlds explosion was not like any normal nuke, (Put it down to the force) the palace was quite properly fried, well a good portion of it, and the surrounding areas. However….. Coruscant, although its heavily built up (with a population density far greater than that of Hong Kong) the Imperial PalacePalace is in the government district which is sparsely populated with residential accommodation. However, Coreworlds ECM pulse will have killed millions, all those traffic cars suddenly shutting down, power stations detonating, energy spikes form controls, the death toll runs into the millions but not the billions.

I'm estimating that for the timeframe involved, milliseconds, that the EMP would have to induce about 1000 Amps of extra current in force inhibitors to shut them down. Which means if Coruscant has a planetary diamter of ~12.7e6 meters and their net resistance is .0032 Ohms then Daniel's bolt carried ~1.3e14 Amps of current.

Now assuming it also takes 1000 Amps to shut down the Central Nervous System(CNS from now on) of a sapient being in this timescale. Also assuming that the net resistance of your average sapient is .18 Ohms his blast could do so out to a radius of 231 km. Which means using the realistic population density of 4 million people/km^2 that would mean that 670.5 billion sapients could potentially have their CNS shut down depending on how they were moving, say 1% was moving the "right" way and we get ~6.7 billion dead sapients.

EDIT: The .18 Ohms for a small portion of a human represting the nervous system itself rather than the body.

OOC: Okay guys, I think I’ll settle this. Coreworlds explosion was not like any normal nuke, (Put it down to the force) the palace was quite properly fried, well a good portion of it, and the surrounding areas. However….. Coruscant, although its heavily built up (with a population density far greater than that of Hong Kong) the Imperial PalacePalace is in the government district which is sparsely populated with residential accommodation. However, Coreworlds ECM pulse will have killed millions, all those traffic cars suddenly shutting down, power stations detonating, energy spikes form controls, the death toll runs into the millions but not the billions.

Civilian damage would have been low proportionally however he has killed many, therefore negating the one thing I could not defeat of Coreworlds, his moral superiority. With that I could never have removed his international support, but now he is no better than the Empire he seeks to destroy.

Unified Sith has the only rights in Nation States to determine losses and he did. Everyone has to live with it including you. You are beating a dead horse and making yourself look silly. Here are a few words of wisdom, let it drop.

/me gets ready for the flame attack

Now assuming it also takes 1000 Amps to shut down the Central Nervous System(CNS from now on) of a sapient being in this timescale. Also assuming that the net resistance of your average sapient is .18 Ohms his blast could do so out to a radius of 231 km. Which means using the realistic population density of 4 million people/km^2 that would mean that 670.5 billion sapients could potentially have their CNS shut down depending on how they were moving, say 1% was moving the "right" way and we get ~6.7 billion dead sapients.

EDIT: The .18 Ohms for a small portion of a human represting the nervous system itself rather than the body.

Okay I want this to be the last of it in the matter, you are utterly negating the type of materials that the Imperial Palace and the government district are made out of. Solid Neutronium! A fathomable metal however it exists in Star Wars. This material will not only absorb much of the EMP blast, but it will reflect it into orbit. The Imperial palace is not the senate dome, which may I add is vast, the Palace is at least ten times larger, and to answer everyone’s questions, no there is not a single person living underneath the Palace as it extends to ground level and to further subterranean levels.

The civilian casualties would have been a lot less than your estimates for several reasons. Marshel law was declared, most would have been in their homes. It was dusk, so most were already out of the district, and the simple materials that the Coruscant city is made out of an EMP pulse will not have travelled as far as you claim. Your calculator that your using takes none of these into account and your formulas are very flawed.

This is the last I WILL SAY: The Casulties were only in the millions, the government district is not built up with residential accommodation give it up and admit you are wrong for peats sake. Its my nation and therefore what I say is law on the matter, telling me otherwise is godmoding on your part so shush.

OOC: So me and US wuz talking about the Imperial palace...

If you mean the big mushroom shaped thing, you should know that's the Senate building not the Imperial Palace, which likely hasn't even been built yet.

Okay, I shall admit that I whoopsied on the matter. However, taking into account Palpatine's penchant for things that qualify for the 'Forking Gi-Normous' category', truth be told the difference only reinforces my point.

In SPADES!

The Imperial palace if several orders of magnitude beyond "big-honkin'-ass", and is defended against durn near every type of assault, internal, external, ya name it that thing is defended against it. Of course, this also means EMP and internal nuclear detonations!

I.E. The imperial palace took that blast with a grin.

After discussing it with U.S. we pretty much both came to the conclusion that the 12 million number was only a death toll estimate that was released to the public. In reality, the imperial palace sucked up EVERYTHING, and only a legion of Storm troopers, Kar August, and a few randomized civilians met their end at the hands of the blast AND resultant electromagnetic pulse.

Even MY preliminary estimate was high.

Huh.

You can stop calculating now Xess.

Okay I want this to be the last of it in the matter, you are utterly negating the type of materials that the Imperial Palace and the government district are made out of. Solid Neutronium! A fathomable metal however it exists in Star Wars.

Despite that neutronium is always alloyed in the SW universe I'll accept your statement of the government district being made of solid neutronium. Now since neutronium has a density of about 10^17-10^18 kg/m^3 and the government district should have at least the equivalent solid volume as 200 of those 2km high spires it would mass 1.3e26 kg using the lower density, or the equivalent mass of 21 Earth's. The government sector would immediately sink to the center of the planet where it would coalesce into a sphere 1338.9 meters in diamter. This would raise the surface gravity by 215 m/s^2 or 21.9 Gees and the entire population of Coruscant, at least a guadrillion people, would be crushed to death as the average person would now weigh about a 2300 pounds.


This material will not only absorb much of the EMP blast, but it will reflect it into orbit.

And yet the EMP was capable of disabling force inhibitors on the other side of the planet and in fact did so. Therefore it is fairly obvious that it negligbly affected it's strength. Of course if it did it would just mean that all those massive ships in orbit, a SW style orbit to boot which is just balancing on anti-grav devices, would be disabled and fall through the nice hole in the shields creating their own multi-megaton explosions which would kill even more people.


The Imperial palace is not the senate dome, which may I add is vast, the Palace is at least ten times larger, and to answer everyone’s questions, no there is not a single person living underneath the Palace as it extends to ground level and to further subterranean levels.

So then my nuclear explosion estimates were off by an order of magnitude or so. Of course since everyone insists I treat it like a giant ass EMP that doesn't mean much as the casualty estimate from that is just as high.


The civilian casualties would have been a lot less than your estimates for several reasons. Marshel law was declared, most would have been in their homes. It was dusk, so most were already out of the district, and the simple materials that the Coruscant city is made out of an EMP pulse will not have travelled as far as you claim.

But we still have those nasty force inhibitors shutting down on the other side of the planet. Not to mention that everyone would be dead anyway if the district was made of solid neutronium as you claim.

Your calculator that your using

Texas Instruments TI-83 Plus.

takes none of these into account and your formulas are very flawed.

1) I actually did think about the solid neutronium aspect when I made my estimates. But since it is absolutely absurd I decided not to factor it in.

2) They were the best I could use for the back of the envelope estimates I was doing.

This is the last I WILL SAY: The Casulties were only in the millions, the government district is not built up with residential accommodation give it up and admit you are wrong for peats sake. Its my nation and therefore what I say is law on the matter, telling me otherwise is godmoding on your part so shush.


What you're saying is equivalent to having someone detonate a nuclear weapon in New York City and having only 12 people die, 1 is an innocent person, 1 is Osama bin Laden, 9 are mudering rapist gangsters and 1 is the person who detonated the bomb to kill bin Laden.

That's even more absurd than the solid neutronium buildings. I'm not telling what casualties you took, I'm telling you that you are fucking insane to not take vastly more.

Paroting of what US said

See above.


Now as to a compromise which doesn't result in an inane underestimate of casualties I suggest that 12 million is the death toll of high-class humans and as such are the only ones that the GE cares about while billions of the lower class humans and non-humans died.

Despite that neutronium is always alloyed in the SW universe I'll accept your statement of the government district being made of solid neutronium. Now since neutronium has a density of about 10^17-10^18 kg/m^3 and the government district should have at least the equivalent solid volume as 200 of those 2km high spires it would mass 1.3e26 kg using the lower density, or the equivalent mass of 21 Earth's. The government sector would immediately sink to the center of the planet where it would coalesce into a sphere 1338.9 meters in diamter. This would raise the surface gravity by 215 m/s^2 or 21.9 Gees and the entire population of Coruscant, at least a guadrillion people, would be crushed to death as the average person would now weigh about a 2300 pounds.
This would be the same for the ships they use it in, too, though (I'm not certain. If you want to play the realism card... Wouldn't neutronium that lacks the gravity of, well, a neutron star suffer from about half its neutrons suddenly turning into protons/ electrons, and the whole thing blowing into a cloud of plasma, or at least light elements, anyway?), even if it is 'just' alloyed. As they are, apparently, having ships involving neutronium, they have obviously found a solution, no matter how magical and ridiculous it is.

So, playing the realism card for neutronium looks a tad pointless, really.

... Well, actually, playing the realism card for anything from Star Wank is a tad pointless.

... Thus, I would assume that realism be damned, it is exactly the way the people actually interacting and thus creating the event say it was. Be it pinpoint teleported currents hitting $target, mushroom clouds formed by way of Jedi-telekinesis instead of heating the air, the likes.

Incidentally, assuming that the involved players recognise Wongwank (I suppose they do, at least, I've yet to see a warsie not getting off by way of screaming GIGATOOOOOOON! NEUTRONIUUUUUUUUM!), the ludicrous yields that would result from such claims, together with the negligible damage SW ships take in RotJ (They do, after all, survive a few hits) suggests that mere buildings on a planet should be capable of doing surviving a lot, too. Which suggests that most people down there were sheltered due to being inside buildings.

And heck, in a gigaton wankverse, a few megatons ain't gonna do a scratch.

And before I forget it: Electronics? How... Primitive.

This would be the same for the ships they use it in, too, though (I'm not certain. If you want to play the realism card... Wouldn't neutronium that lacks the gravity of, well, a neutron star suffer from about half its neutrons suddenly turning into protons/ electrons, and the whole thing blowing into a cloud of plasma, or at least light elements, anyway?), even if it is 'just' alloyed. As they are, apparently, having ships involving neutronium, they have obviously found a solution, no matter how magical and ridiculous it is.

Well "alloyed" used in this case is meaning many microscopic spheres of neutronium imbedded in the armor to make it thermally superconductive. Hence they have low volume and thus low mass and not super-strong gravity. And since it is SW, the same universe with 800km planet destroying spaceships I don't see the problem with them having found a way to stabilize neutronium. But of course realistically you are completely right.

So, playing the realism card for neutronium looks a tad pointless, really.

... Well, actually, playing the realism card for anything from Star Wank is a tad pointless.

How is assuming that neutronium having the density of neutronium pointless? The SW verse has found a way to make it stable not negate it's mass.

... Thus, I would assume that realism be damned, it is exactly the way the people actually interacting and thus creating the event say it was. Be it pinpoint teleported currents hitting $target, mushroom clouds formed by way of Jedi-telekinesis instead of heating the air, the likes.

Several reasons why applying physics to the scenario is viable:

1) It deals with actual events like EMPs and therefore follows actual physics. I had to approximate because I know dick about EMPs in the real world.

Incidentally, assuming that the involved players recognise Wongwank (I suppose they do, at least, I've yet to see a warsie not getting off by way of screaming GIGATOOOOOOON! NEUTRONIUUUUUUUUM!), the ludicrous yields that would result from such claims, together with the negligible damage SW ships take in RotJ (They do, after all, survive a few hits) suggests that mere buildings on a planet should be capable of doing surviving a lot, too. Which suggests that most people down there were sheltered due to being inside buildings.

1) The capabilites of Star Wars vessels are not "Wongwank". They are derived from the films, look up the Star Wars Technical Commentaries by astrophysicist Curtis Saxton to get your fill of Star Wars technology.

2) Those ships have shields which are the primary mode of defense in the SW universe.

3) Warships have heavy armor that can only resist up to medium shots. Heavy shots, the gigaton ones, blow through the armor like tissue paper.

4) The primary defense of planets from orbital attack are planetary shields.

5) The extraordinarily vast majority of Coruscant's buildings are not made of warship grade armor and are not indivdually shielded.

And heck, in a gigaton wankverse, a few megatons ain't gonna do a scratch.

Something is only wank if it's just powerful for the sake of power and doesn't fit the story. That is why only hardcore sci-fi nuts like yourself think SW is wanky.

And before I forget it: Electronics? How... Primitive.


Yeah because everything needs to be the most expensive and advanced thing when you could do the same thing more realibly and cheaper with "old fashioned" technology. :rolleyes:

Also please don't post in this thread again. If you must reply please do so via TGs. And no I'm not hypocritical as I leave any thread the starter asks me too, it just doesn't happen that often.

That's even more absurd than the solid neutronium buildings. I'm not telling what casualties you took, I'm telling you that you are fucking insane to not take vastly more.

Nevertheless, its his decision.

I'm only a lurker in this thread, and not trying to step on any ones toes. But the Owner of the planet, the buildings and people affected has spoken. To continue to dispute him and his statement of the facts as he accepts them is well...pointless.

Its my nation and therefore what I say is law on the matter, telling me otherwise is godmoding on your part so shush.

After discussing it with U.S. we pretty much both came to the conclusion that the 12 million number was only a death toll estimate that was released to the public. In reality, the imperial palace sucked up EVERYTHING, and only a legion of Storm troopers, Kar August, and a few randomized civilians met their end at the hands of the blast AND resultant electromagnetic pulse.


This is his decission, and for you to keep on argueing about it says that you just want to argue, or have some reason to put down the dead ( Daniel Masaki )

Stepping out before you have to ask me.

I'm only a lurker in this thread, and not trying to step on any ones toes. But the Owner of the planet, the buildings and people affected has spoken. To continue to dispute him and his statement of the facts as he accepts them is well...pointless.






This is his decission, and for you to keep on argueing about it says that you just want to argue, or have some reason to put down the dead ( Daniel Masaki )

Stepping out before you have to ask me.


UNIFIED SITH STAMP OF APPROVAL

This is his decission, and for you to keep on argueing about it says that you just want to argue, or have some reason to put down the dead ( Daniel Masaki )

I'm arguing against it because I can't stand stupidity. Besides I offered a reasonable compromise that fits the evidence, fits the outlook of the GE and most importantly of all isn't inane, idiotic, absurd etc.

Besides Daniel Masaki isn't really dead, just taking a breather for the summer. Just ask Godular or CW or read the "Surprised to be Dead" thread.

Anyway I'm going to be RPing as per my compromise, if you don't like it you can kiss my ass.

IC:


The Prime Minister stepped up to the podium, "As you all well know this government has come under attack for its condemnation of Daniel Masaki. Some have even gone so far as to deny the physical evidence and claimed only 12 million people died. They even say that only a few hundred of them were innocent civillians. We have come to the conclusion that the few hundred who they say died were high-class humans and they are not considering the billions of lower class humans and non-humans living on Coruscant who died as a resilt of Daniel Masaki's horrible act. This just shows that the vast majority of people in the GFFA are elitist racists.

"We stand fast on our condemnation of Daniel Masaki and our casualty estimates. No one can convince us that their warped view of reality is correct. We have our values and we will not bow down before this pressure. We will stand free!"

You just don’t shut up do you, well if you wish to be corrected fine I’ll correct you.

First and foremost the force inhibitors were not on the other side of the globe, they were in fact very close to the Imperial Palace.

Second of all, the twins were on the outskirts of the Palace in the Palpatine medical facility making their stasis pod shutdown realistic.

Thirdly the entire planet was under marshal law. The Imperial Palace had been practically evacuated for the assault on the Senate and for the fleet battle in orbit.

Solid Neutronium would sink into the planet if it were any other planet, in any other nation, but I never had to think about why it was still standing until now, so I’ll give you an acceptable reason.

The Imperial Palace is constructed from multi layered armour making it one of the most unique buildings in the Galaxy. In between the sheets of Neutronium we have small shield layers and subsequently small anti gravity generators which exhibit only a small field as to prevent the entire building from sinking. Keeping the great mass and strength of Neutronium and reducing its deadly gravitational field.

But now you will argue, but those should have shut down in the EMP pulse, causing the sinking of the palace!

The EMP pulse did shut some of these down, but thankfully the Neutronium wall was vaporised before the anti gravity bubble rendering this argument useless.

For the shield generators outside the Palace they themselves were not shutdown by the EMP but it was the command centre, and with that inoperable, the Shield generators would naturally shut down.

And as confirmation of what happened on the explosion I will show you! The great pulse wave, was not powerful enough to destroy all electronic equipment, in fact it done relatively little damage to Coruscants infrastructure, however what it did do was disable the command centre switching off the planetary shield. Sector by sector fell, leaving Coruscant open to orbital attacks.

There is what happened, I even posted that the Pulse didn’t do very much, and with Coreworlds subsequent elaboration on the weakness of the fireball, well then, we’re sorted, everything is fine I win, you lose.

You are on one these people that must always be right, and don’t reply saying no but I just hate stupidity. No, with this course of continuous argument over such a trifle matter which doesn’t even concern you are the stupidity. You have flamed me twice in this thread, why? I have been polite. But I feel I have answered your questions thoroughly, if not, contact me on MSN at Wardventure1@aol.com and we can settle this a lot faster there.

Oh, and not to pile it on or anything, but your assertions about how an EMP could directly kill humans/sentients has been bugging me ever since you uttered them. Ya see, in every instance I have read about EMP, I have seen NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of potential direct lethality.

I spent at least three hours, off and on, trying to hunt down any confirmation whatsoever that an EMP could shut down somebody's nervous system. Hell, much of that time was just trying to find "Electromagnetic Pulse" and "Humans" in the same paragraph.

Oddly enough, the only references I found were along the following lines:

http://www.aussurvivalist.com/nuclear/blasteffects.htm

There is no evidence that EMP is a physical threat to humans.

So what ten cent pamphlet DID you read? Links are REALLY being elusive.

In response to US:

Neutronium becomes degenerate at 10^9 degrees Kelvin, from pg 607 of "An Introduction to Modern Astrophysics" by Bradley Caroll and Dale Ostlie. To vaporize it one would have to raise it to at least 10^9 degrees Kelvin so that it is no longer degenerate. Now its specific heat would be likely astronomic in scale so lets say it's 1 million times that of water's (4184 Joules/kg *K) for 4.184e9 J/kg*K.

And it seems likely that Daniel vaped at least 1 m^3 of neutronium for a mass of 1e17 kg.

The formula is q = m*Cp*DeltaT

therefore q = (1e17)(4.184e9)(1e9)
q = 4.184x10^35 Joules = 9.9x10^16 gigatons.

If you think I used a too high a specific heat we get q=4.184x10^29 Joules using the specific heat of water which is WAY to low.

Now at this point we have ~4.2e35 J to get rid of. Now at this point we would have neutrino radiation so lets say 99% of the energy is carried away harmlessly by neutrinos which leaves us with 4.2e33 Joules left. Now again lets say only 1/4 of that gets pumped into the atmosphere and the rest is radiated into space or abosrbed by the palace.

That leaves us with putting 1e33 Joules into the atmosphere. Now using 1090 J/kg*K as the specific heat of air( at a temperature of 500 C and a density of .457 kg/m^3) and an atmospheric mass of 5.1e19 kg (Air density of 1 kg/m^3 constant to 100 km altitude).

We get
Delta T = q/(Cp*m) = 1e33/(1090*5.1e19)
delta T = 1.8x10^10 degrees Kelvin.

Which means that the atmosphere of Coruscant was raised to ~18 billion degrees Kelvin which is 273 degrees cooler in Celsius and ~32 billion degrees Ferenheit.

Using the 4.2e29 Joule estimate we get a temperature raise of 18,900 degrees Kelvin.

Suffice it to say that all quadrillion or so people on Coruscant are dead. But I think I'll just stick with my first estimate and compromise scenario.

In response to Godular:

Yes EMPs can shut down the human nervous system provided that the EMP is off sufficient strength or the person is close enough to it.

With nuclear blast EMP's they are either dead from the blast or too far away to be affected by its EMP.

An EMP is essentially a massive moving magnetic field and radio pulse. The pulse induces a current in conductors which shuts them down. It also induces a current in insulators such as us humans, however it is extremely small and is not enough to do any harm.

However if you are say a few feet from a lightning strike it will be strong enough to shut down your CNS causing you to fall unconscious and cause your heart and lungs to stop.

LINKS, PLEASE.

I am finding jack, shit, and everything in between that supports the assertion that EMP can kill people outright. And article after article after article saying stuff along the lines of 'if it can, it hasn't happened yet'.

Where are you GETTING this stuff?

LINKS, PLEASE.

I am finding jack, shit, and everything in between that supports the assertion that EMP can kill people outright. And article after article after article saying stuff along the lines of 'if it can, it hasn't happened yet'.

Where are you GETTING this stuff?

Physics. It's a simple extrapolation of the known properties of the human body and EMPs. Our bodies are slighlty conductive, EMPs do damage by inducing a current in materiels, therefore a sufficiently strong EMP can shut down the human nervous system.

It's hard for an EMP to shut down the nervous system because it isn't all that conductive so it won't induce enough current to do any damage. But if you are close enough to one of sufficient strength then yes it can kill you.

Physics? Are you just 'calculating' stuff again?

Every single source I have looked at, including Science departments of several universities with connections to government research say the following:

NOPE.

Physics? Are you just 'calculating' stuff again?

Every single source I have looked at, including Science departments of several universities with connections to government research say the following:

NOPE.

Have you even read my posts? Now to hopefully end this argument I'll sum it up

- EMPs are large radio and magnetic field burst
- those two things can induce a current
- it's easier to induce a current in something that is a good conductor
- electronic devices are filled with good conductors, humans are not
- it is therefore hard to induce a current in humans but it is possible
- Nuclear weapon EMPs take place in the upper atmosphere (~300 miles) so the EMP is to weak at the surface to cause any harm to humans
- If a human were close enough to a sufficiently strong EMP it would induce a current capable of damaging the human.
- that damage would include shutting down the CNS.
- the reason you think EMP's can't hurt people is because you're thinking of nuclear weapon produced EMPs

Happy now?

I would say your calculations are flawed to the up-most, as guess what, you’re getting it all wrong.

First of all the actual amount of Neutronium that was vaporised was in fact very little, but it was the position of which the detonation took place that caused most of the damage. Placing it inside the superstructure caused a lot of the anti grav generators to go offline causing a large proportion of the palace to collapse. Now this would cause a problem if it were not for the residual anti gravity plates that most of Coruscant is built upon, saving everyone from a nasty gravitational experience.

But still the amount of Neutronium vaporised was, and let me say this very small (negating your new point as your last ones have been cast out), but it was in fact structural failures, which would not have happened however, the EMP devastated the power grid and therefore the anti-gravity generators.

The back up generators came online however the damage was already done.

Now I am still waiting for actual proof that this “EMP” can do damage to humans. Provide me with some links.

Yes EMPs can shut down the human nervous system provided that the EMP is off sufficient strength or the person is close enough to it.

PROVE IT

However if you are say a few feet from a lightning strike it will be strong enough to shut down your CNS causing you to fall unconscious and cause your heart and lungs to stop.

And what about all those people who have survived lightning strikes ehh? They’re alive, rendering your argument utter rubbish.

There is no evidence that EMP is a physical threat to humans. However, electrical or electronic systems, particularly those connected to long wires such as power lines or antennas, can undergo damage. There could be actual physical damage to an electrical component or a temporary disruption of operation.
http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/23-1108.asp

So are you telling me that you can tell all these scientists that they don’t have clue what they’re talking about and that EMP will kill a human?

REALLY!

Well then tell me, why are all the soldiers who worked on Hydrogen Bomb Christmas Island experiments still alive?

Why are all the Chinese experts still alive who detonated their nuclear weapons?

Why, in fact, has no one EVER been killed by an EMP?

The strength of the EMP generated by the detonation of a nuclear bomb depends highly on the altitude at which it is released. At altitudes above 30,000m, it is the strongest.

We can safely assume, which would go hand in hand with MY POST That the EMP pulse was in fact severely weakened due to its low altitude.

the reason you think EMP's can't hurt people is because you're thinking of nuclear weapon produced EMPs

And please tell me, how can you get different types of EMP. They are all electromagnetic pulses, and Coreworlds detonation was one comparable of to a nucleal or Hydrogen detonation. So once again you’re talking rubbish.

Please read the posts more fully and then perhaps you can argue. And I will still maintain that until you provide direct evidence that EMP can harm a your arguments will have no credence, unless you use the basis that this is science fiction and therefore pretty much NOTHING has to be justified. I seriously advise that you get a life

I would say your calculations are flawed to the up-most, as guess what, you’re getting it all wrong.

First of all the actual amount of Neutronium that was vaporised was in fact very little, but it was the position of which the detonation took place that caused most of the damage. Placing it inside the superstructure caused a lot of the anti grav generators to go offline causing a large proportion of the palace to collapse. Now this would cause a problem if it were not for the residual anti gravity plates that most of Coruscant is built upon, saving everyone from a nasty gravitational experience.

But still the amount of Neutronium vaporised was, and let me say this very small (negating your new point as your last ones have been cast out), but it was in fact structural failures, which would not have happened however, the EMP devastated the power grid and therefore the anti-gravity generators.

And I was supposed to know that he only vaporized around a tenth of a gram of material how exactly? I made a perfectly valid estimate.


PROVE IT

In that link you post later it says high-altitude EMPs can induce a few thousand volts, lets say 2000. If it can induce a potential difference it will also induce a current, good old Ohms' law. I don't know what the resistance of the human body is but it should be fairly high so lets say 10,000,000 Ohms which I think is to high.

I = V/R
I = 2000/10,000
I = .0002 Amps

.2 milliAmps applied for a split second is not enough to kill you. However if you were closer to it the induced voltage would be higher. At a certain point it would induce enough current to kill you.




And what about all those people who have survived lightning strikes ehh? They’re alive, rendering your argument utter rubbish.

People have survived falling 5000 feet and getting shot in the head too. The fact that some people survive a lightning strike does not mean it is imposible for an EMP to kill someone. What you're trying to say is that getting shot in the head isn't possibly lethal because some people survive.



So are you telling me that you can tell all these scientists that they don’t have clue what they’re talking about and that EMP will kill a human?

I'm saying that all those scientists know that an EMP from a high-altitude blast isn't powerfull enough to kill humans on the ground.



Well then tell me, why are all the soldiers who worked on Hydrogen Bomb Christmas Island experiments still alive?

Why are all the Chinese experts still alive who detonated their nuclear weapons?

Maybe because they were low-altitude blasts and had weaker EMPs? And maybe that they were in bunkers and ships and other things that shield them?

Why, in fact, has no one EVER been killed by an EMP?

No one has ever died of a nuclear blast created EMP. People have died from lightning induced EMPs.



We can safely assume, which would go hand in hand with MY POST That the EMP pulse was in fact severely weakened due to its low altitude.

And it was also inside a giant neutronium building full of shields. I'm surprised it even managed to kill anyone outside of the room it happened in given all the amazingly stupid crap you have thrown up in regards to the palace.



And please tell me, how can you get different types of EMP. They are all electromagnetic pulses, and Coreworlds detonation was one comparable of to a nucleal or Hydrogen detonation. So once again you’re talking rubbish.

Yes they're all EMPs, but they can you know, vary in power. And people can you know, be closer to them.

I seriously advise that you get a life

It takes two to tango.

And I was supposed to know that he only vaporized around a tenth of a gram of material how exactly? I made a perfectly valid estimate.

Exactly my point, you are arguing on a subject that you know nothing of. I can’t put everything in my post, which is why I suggested you contact me over MSN. To argue on something as flimsy as three paragraphs is extremely foolish.


In that link you post later it says high-altitude EMPs can induce a few thousand volts, lets say 2000. If it can induce a potential difference it will also induce a current, good old Ohms' law. I don't know what the resistance of the human body is but it should be fairly high so lets say 10,000,000 Ohms which I think is to high.

I = V/R
I = 2000/10,000
I = .0002 Amps

.2 milliAmps applied for a split second is not enough to kill you. However if you were closer to it the induced voltage would be higher. At a certain point it would induce enough current to kill you.
This is merely speculation on what “could” happen. The laws of physics change beyond the class room. When you move further up the educational table please let me know if it will hold the same?


People have survived falling 5000 feet and getting shot in the head too. The fact that some people survive a lightning strike does not mean it is imposible for an EMP to kill someone. What you're trying to say is that getting shot in the head isn't possibly lethal because some people survive.

In Canada, every year lightning kills about seven people and seriously injures 60 to 70 others.


http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/lightningsurvivor/
So let me see, six people out of seventy, those are not very good odds ehhh? Now if you add that to a severely, and we have agreed a severely weakened EMP pulse then the death tolls become significantly weaker, or do you disagree?



I'm saying that all those scientists know that an EMP from a high-altitude blast isn't powerfull enough to kill humans on the ground.

And they have yet to have any, and I stress this point, ANY proff that EMP harms humans at all.




Maybe because they were low-altitude blasts and had weaker EMPs? And maybe that they were in bunkers and ships and other things that shield them?


Utterly, 100% wrong. All service personnel on Christmas island were simply put in a field and told to sit down while the detonations continued. Even the recording equipment was outside.

The Cluster Fission device that was detonated by the United Kingdom, and hailed, as a hydrogen bomb for propaganda purposes, was stronger than any other nuclear weapon ever detonated. Higher in yield than any Hydrogen bomb. And yet, the troops were out in the open, with just some atmosphere between them and the weapon, yet they survived…? Amazing isn’t it, that the EMP had absolutely no health consequences. Oh and these were air busted…


No one has ever died of a nuclear blast created EMP. People have died from lightning induced EMPs.

Point out an instance where someone has actually been killed by an EMP, you still refuse to point out examples for me.


And it was also inside a giant neutronium building full of shields. I'm surprised it even managed to kill anyone outside of the room it happened in given all the amazingly stupid crap you have thrown up in regards to the palace.

Well, you did ask didn’t you ^_^. And please keep in mind, its not me doing all these stupid equations to prove my points which are quintessentially flawed now is it?




Yes they're all EMPs, but they can you know, vary in power. And people can you know, be closer to them.

And once again we come to your amazing lightning example. Six people out of seventy die from a lightning strike, oh my, But I guess the sixty five who also get struck aren’t close enough ehhh?


It takes two to tango.

I believe you have now been proven wrong, and how about you simply scale back your figures to twelve million and we can all be happy eh?

I concede the point on EMPs killing humans. I still say it is possible given the right conditions, but that those conditions are extremely rare.

Exactly my point, you are arguing on a subject that you know nothing of. I can’t put everything in my post, which is why I suggested you contact me over MSN. To argue on something as flimsy as three paragraphs is extremely foolish.

Instant message debates are vastly inferior to forum debates. You could have said how much was vaporized when making the post, you could have just said the exact yield of the blast to settle the matter. You just gave me scenarios that I had to make fit with the evidence. It's true that I never asked for clarification, but just figured you didn't actually know how hard it is to disable things across the globe (which is clearly implied by CWs death post) or vaporize neutronium so I just figured I'd go for what I would have expected you to say was vaporized and so on.


The Cluster Fission device that was detonated by the United Kingdom, and hailed, as a hydrogen bomb for propaganda purposes, was stronger than any other nuclear weapon ever detonated. Higher in yield than any Hydrogen bomb.

I'm not trying to start a debate on this I'm just curious, was it detonated before or after the Russians detonated Tsar Bomba? Which at 50 megatons was the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated.

I believe you have now been proven wrong, and how about you simply scale back your figures to twelve million and we can all be happy eh?
We'll see, first I'd like to know how many Clonetroopers were involved in shooting Daniel, whether he was on the roof, a balcony, or inside the palace proper, and whether Kar August was in the room with him.

you know, I just entered this thread, but I can still see that you guys are a long way from any actual RPing. just a thought...

you know, I just entered this thread, but I can still see that you guys are a long way from any actual RPing. just a thought...

There's RPing scattered throughout. Especially in the first few pages.

I concede the point on EMPs killing humans. I still say it is possible given the right conditions, but that those conditions are extremely rare.
That is of course up to you.
Instant message debates are vastly inferior to forum debates. You could have said how much was vaporized when making the post, you could have just said the exact yield of the blast to settle the matter. You just gave me scenarios that I had to make fit with the evidence. It's true that I never asked for clarification, but just figured you didn't actually know how hard it is to disable things across the globe (which is clearly implied by CWs death post) or vaporize neutronium so I just figured I'd go for what I would have expected you to say was vaporized and so on.

If I went on saying how much of the palace was vaporized, giving exact estimates it would hardly be an rp would it, it would be a fictional damage report, which I have no intention of doing.
The post, and subsequently the thread was mainly for me, Wick and Coreworlds, and the damage was set out over MSN, so the people involved all knew what had happened. It isn’t up to me to decide the yield of the blast, Coreworlds is the owner of Daniel Masaki and in consequence his actions.
And, no one asked you to make all these damage estimates, and even so I quite clearly stated the death toll, in the area of twelve million people.

I'm not trying to start a debate on this I'm just curious, was it detonated before or after the Russians detonated Tsar Bomba? Which at 50 megatons was the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated.
It was detonated before the Tsar bomb in 1957, it was the most powerful weapon of its day.

We'll see, first I'd like to know how many Clonetroopers were involved in shooting Daniel, whether he was on the roof, a balcony, or inside the palace proper, and whether Kar August was in the room with him.

Read the thread again, as I’m not adding to the posts. The thread is finished and the atrocity is over, lets move on shall we?

I give, 12 million it is.

IC: "We were wrong in our estimates of the casualties caused by Daniel Masaki. We were not aware of the... unique nature of the Imperial Palace. As such we accept the official death toll of 12 million sapients. While not nearly as catastrophic as our previous estimates it still makes Mr. Masaki directly responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler of ancient Earth. We apologize for our over-estimate and again offer out condolences to the family of those affected by this tragic event."

OOC: Would prolly be better to restart the thread, I think. The Godulans were actually gonna say something different if ya'd kept with the 'Publicly Released' Death Toll. And all this OOC bickering has pretty much tossed the thread into the bin anyway.

OOC: Would prolly be better to restart the thread, I think. The Godulans were actually gonna say something different if ya'd kept with the 'Publicly Released' Death Toll. And all this OOC bickering has pretty much tossed the thread into the bin anyway.

Maybe later.

Dude, no one really cares about what you think Xess.

I wouldn't mind doing a kamikaze EMP on your home planet right now, just to get some peace and quiet..... :headbang:

Ah Klington, but the EMP wouldn't do anything. Sure it would knock out most of his electrical stuff, but as proved in this thread, it won't harm the people that will keep talking and talking and talking about this. That's what you really need to target for quiet.

Damn your right! Not even an EMP that could be seen from space could do much of anything.... can he understand that, nope.

Dude, no one really cares about what you think Xess.

I wouldn't mind doing a kamikaze EMP on your home planet right now, just to get some peace and quiet..... :headbang:

I fucking conceded asshole. Read the goddamned thread. :mad:

I like the kinds of threads where we bash someone for writting an rp and killing people when he isnt even repling to our slander so lets gabber on for 5 more pages or random equations...toodles

THE WIck! Why is the WI big and ck not?

Klington...Learn when to shut up

I'd appreciate it if no one posted in this thread anymore. It's dead, don't beat the corpse.

well it started as a typo, but now it is tradmarked so dont go copying it!

well it started as a typo, but now it is tradmarked so dont go copying it!

I'd appreciate it if no one posted in this thread anymore. It's dead, don't beat the corpse.

Klington...Learn when to shut up

Yeah, I don't! As evidenced by me posting when Xess told everyone to shut up. Do I give a damn Chronie? Fuck no.

Yeah, I don't! As evidenced by me posting when Xess told everyone to shut up. Do I give a damn Chronie? Fuck no.


What part of "DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD ANYMORE!" Don't you fucking understand you asslicking cock-goblin!?

I have asked for this thread to be locked.

Locked. It's staying locked, too.

Xessmithia, Klington - warned for flaming. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9015951&postcount=4)

~ Tsar the Mod.