NationStates Jolt Archive

Layer 1 (outside layer): A 10mm layer of polycarbonate, on top of that ultra hightech starlite (UHTS) 10mm and a fireresistant coating in addition to the 10mm of UHTS. The last two effectively destroy any chance from the outside to drop firebombs, or napalm on the ship. The fire-resistant coating prevents the fire from getting grip and the UHTS is a material that can handle up to 10,000°C temperatures a few hours. No fire can burn as hot as 10k°C, so the ship is pretty fire proof. An additional layer to absorb light rays can be added, but it is optional.
Total layer thickness: 30mm

Layer 2: 7.5mm thick strips of hardened steel cross-banded with titanium, also 7.5mm embedded in a layer of nylon, 2.5mm on both sides. This is the main ballistic armour of the ship, able to withstand the most common types of naval artillery and coastal guns. The energy of blasts is directed to shock brackets, and to the hardened steel/polycarbonate honeycomb structure of layer 3.
Total layer thickness: 12.5mm

Layer 3: Honeycomb structure made of hardened steel, the plates filling up the holes are made of polycarbonatel 25mm in thickness, same holds for the honeycomb thickness. The plates are molten with the most advanced laser technology, and the honeycomb construction lies embedded in a layer of dually enforced titanium (on both sides 2.5mm thick and woven in steelwire and nylon). The diameter of the hexagons is 25cm. One honecomb structure is 4 meters wide, and 2.5 meters high, which are connected together by laser burning technology, and the gear structure.
Total layer thickness: 30mm

Layer 4: Laser-burned layers of high-compressed titanium, each plate is 1×1 meter; connected to each other using the gear structure.
Total layer thickness: 15mm

Layer 5 (inner layer): A 10mm layer of hardened steel, supported by bulkheads able to absord and redirect energy to the superstructure of the ship. Sensors are placed on the inside of the armour to quickly detect any heat changes, impact spots.
Total layer thickness: 10mm

it sounds good in theory, but it would not be cost effective, but this would have to be used in M.T. -- FT nations have weapons that would ripp it like tissue paper.

it sounds good in theory, but it would not be cost effective, but this would have to be used in M.T. -- FT nations have weapons that would ripp it like tissue paper.It's MT of course, in FT everything produced in MT is bigger, better, faster etc... You get my point. Everything I described is 100% feasible with today's technology. Knowing that NS economies are hundred times stronger than the United States' economy even at the most thriving economical times, it's realistic.

i never said it was infeasible, but it would be very expensive to produce. even if it is synthtic. I like the idea. If it is ok. How about you and a " friend of mine" about the use and production of the new armor.

i never said it was infeasible, but it would be very expensive to produce. even if it is synthtic. I like the idea. If it is ok. How about you and a " friend of mine" about the use and production of the new armor.I was just stating it's realistic when the by-the-book players knock at my door (who recognize dreadnoughts). The reason I made this OOC thread it get some input how to improve it before I let it hit the assembly line ICly. For now, the IC status is "in development" and totally secret IC. But that speaks for itself when having such a revolutionary type of armour.

OOC: Eh, a bit off on the diamond thing.

Though Diamonds are hard (the ability to withstand scratching), their toughness (Toughness relates to a material's ability to resist breakage from forceful impact) isn't that great. Diamonds can be smashed into pieces fairly easily, so an armor shell made out of them isn't practical, even if it is synthetic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond

I understand completely.... now you want input on how to improve it.... well
" my friend" can assist you in that.... wait...... diamond... thats it. thank you.....

OOC: My only concern would be the difficulty in actually making the thing. It looks like a very interesting, very workable scheme of armour and I think it would be a great boon for naval ships.

Colour me interested.

Good idea

AMF is right..... it would be hard to make it resistant to a good soild hit by a cannon.

I was about to say the same as AMF. Diamond (synthetic or otherwise) is absolutely useless as armour, and (even synthetic) is expensive and difficult to produce in sufficient quantities. Also, it is not created in workable sheets. It would be next to impossible to bond the diamond together in a way that maintains tensile strength and even harder to create some sort of shape out of it.

EDIT: I should also point out that a Fuel Air Bomb isnt napalm. It works by sucking in huge amounts of air and literally crushing things using suction.

(...)Which is exactly why I added the other layers of armour, the honeycumb structure and the multiple layers of polycarbonate. However, natural diamonds have flaws in them because nature isn't perfect. Synthetic diamonds can have added ingredients to increase the toughness. Concerning the hardness of diamonds, that is unsurpassed and literally the strongest point of the material. And because the small surface of the diamond which is embedded into an even stronger structure in toughness, the ability to take hits increases greatly. Remember, a single plate can't take much pounding, but combine thousands of those along with the energy absorbing/detour features and you have a powerful piece of armour.

@ Hobbeebia: Which is why I added the ballistic layers, shock resistant layers, ballistic ceramics. Instead of the regular "ballistic composite layers" I use polycarbonate or nylon which is vastly superior to composite.

@ Praetonoa: It's possible providing you have the proper tools and equipment. Time, temperature, pressure and carbon are needed to produce it. Making plates of it is easy enough, just make it a larger surface to put pressure on. And that's why diamond layers cannot be bended, all surfaces are plain, straight surfaces. Maybe I'll draw a schematic of it later to give you an impression how it's connected together, and how it enforces the ship.

The diamond is part of it, it's not the armour as a whole.

I would look in to spider web armor. for Mt it would be almost impossible but for post or Ft it would be more feasible. As most of you know spider webs( by scaling) are as strong as steel cables. Now if some one could harvest enough
of it and was able to weave it together, it would be a good form of armor..... body armor at least.

Which is exactly why I added the other layers of armour, the honeycumb structure and the multiple layers of polycarbonate. However, natural diamonds have flaws in them because nature isn't perfect. Synthetic diamonds can have added ingredients to increase the toughness. Concerning the hardness of diamonds, that is unsurpassed and literally the strongest point of the material. And because the small surface of the diamond which is embedded into an even stronger structure in toughness, the ability to take hits increases greatly. Remember, a single plate can't take much pounding, but combine thousands of those along with the energy absorbing/detour features and you have a powerful piece of armour.



Other layers of armor are fine, but even if you modify these diamonds to increase their toughness, they will essentially be the 'weakest' spots in your armor. A Tungsten spike would go clean through it with ease, no matter how many layers of synthetic diamonds you have. Even if protected by other layers of armor, those diamonds are essentially as useful as glass at stopping KE or HEAT rounds.

Size of the diamonds make no difference, and it is proven that cutting a diamond a certain way will actually decrease its toughness. Bonding diamonds together (because I don't suppose you're going to have loose diamonds rattling around inside your armor plating) might actually weaken them further, so really Guff, you should think about finding another element. Diamonds, no matter what you do, are worthless as additions to armor.

AMF: suppose he tiles it like shingles instead-so that each layer absorbs and redirects impact energy by shattering?

well..... it would seem that the gods have spoken.... i would start looking into my option.

AMF: suppose he tiles it like shingles instead-so that each layer absorbs and redirects impact energy by shattering?


Woulnd't be practical, they would only by able to withstand 1 hit in that case, and that's assuming that it can even stop the first round.

I would look in to spider web armor. for Mt it would be almost impossible but for post or Ft it would be more feasible. As most of you know spider webs( by scaling) are as strong as steel cables. Now if some one could harvest enough
of it and was able to weave it together, it would be a good form of armor..... body armor at least.I think Seversky does that for some of his patrol ships he created.

Seversky, if you're reading, correct me if I'm wrong.

You almost need a way to intermesh it with some kind of high-toughness ceramic or metal that can act as a 'buffer' to increase the toughness. It doesn't take that much impact-stress to cut or "Knap" diamond by itself, though the stuff is the bee's knees for resisting friction-wear. Also, diamond burns. It burns like coal burns. Hard, strong, but very, very brittle is diamond. If you can find a means to 'tile' it over a mesh, that might give you a better level of protection. If I find a way to do this, then the layers of "diamond" will be maintained. For now, I'll remove them to replace with something better. I think the diamond is a step in the right direction, but I need to replace it with a material that has the same hardness, and an equal toughness. If I can do that, while finding realistic, non-PMT means of production I have a real hit.

The honeycumb structure and other layers will be kept the same, especially the UHTS protection. I'll do a bit of snooping on webpages tonight, if I'm lucky I'll find a substitute. The rest of the armour scheme looks too good to throw away.

i think that would be best.

Agreed. The rest of it looks solid and well-thought out.

I think high-compression nanotubes or high-compression alloys are a suitable replacement for the synthetic diamonds. Basicly, carbon nanotubes are the same origial material as ordinary carbon, but thousand times stronger. IF it would be possible to use the same pressure, length of pressure and temperature to create regual synthetic diamonds on those carbon nanotubes. That way the hardness as well as toughness would be... Insane I reckon.

If these nanotubes can have the same chemical makeup of regular plastic - to jump back to their regular shape when cooled down after intense heating (ie going back to the molecular nanotube structure) while remaining in the same shape it was compressed in (blocks, plates etc) then it would be indestructible.

Wishful Thinking Inc.

Carbon nanotubes are wonderful, but so prohibitively expensive (as in, the combination of Prae's and my defence budgets just for the armour for one superdreadnaught). We're talking somewhere in the neighbourhood of $20 trillion.

1st law of hobbeebian war... nothing is indestructable.

Carbon nanotubes are wonderful, but so prohibitively expensive (as in, the combination of Prae's and my defence budgets just for the armour for one superdreadnaught). We're talking somewhere in the neighbourhood of $20 trillion.Money isn't really an issue in my nation, mass production is. Today nanotubes are only produced in laboratories, making it more unnecessarily expensive. I'll read some stuff on the production of the damn stuff, perhaps I can make an IC story to put machines doing it instead of a few scientists.

Here's some useful information about mass producing nanotubes:
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/tech/200412/kt2004120818293111810.htm
http://www.nanotechweb.org/articles/news/2/9/2/1

This shows it is possible.

EDIT: Here's some information on "buckyball" related things: http://www.insite.com.br/rodrigo/bucky/buckyball.txt

The problem with bucky ball armor (this topic as been beaten to death already) is that it is hard to manufacture and is very expensive, so expensive that putting it on a tank just isn't cost effective.

Ah well, do whatever you please.....

The problem with bucky ball armor is that it is hard to manufacture and is very expensive, so expensive that putting it on a tank just isn't cost effective.

For simplicities sake I generally stick to the opinion that when it comes to modern day technology it's better to stick with what is currently available and in common use... it means much less arguements over what technically we can do today, but haven't really had a chance to field test or mass produce.

There are too many people trying to get the advantage in modern technology using cutting edge ideas which haven't been put into practice. Sure it's nice to have the very best stuff, but there are usually a good reason why everyone isn't equipped with the very best stuff such as the fact it's simply not cost affective.

Of course, give you're elite guys the cool stuff, then when it's pulled out in a roleplay everyone can be more impressed by it... if it's common then it quickly becomes mundane and dull. Personally I don't think technology in nationstates makes a huge amount of difference... I'll be more generous when taking damage if you are using something special and rare, but if it's common then you may as well be using cheaper equipement for all the effect it's going to have on my losses. Though when there is a huge technology gap (highly uncommon in Nationstates) then yeah, it will make a difference, but DU rounds instead of normal rounds wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. It just sounds more cool.

Though I shouldn't be so judgemental, most people want cool technology because it's cool... not because it assures victory, most of us would rather we lost because of good tactics and RP from the other side, not because the other guy claims his technology is better.

Cool armour, but I am more comfortable with my grunts using the normal stuff for modern technology, and slightly better stuff for my normal status of post-modern technology and space technology.

I agree with Iuthia here. With a single economy of a single NS region of around 25 random nations being more powerful than the money of the whole RL world added up I am pretty sure the production of buckyball is no problem. I'm happy with extremely advanced armour, leaves the competition way behind.

This is Guff and jolts cookies are messed up again wahey!

Just throwing money at things doesnt make problems go away, unfortunately. Manufacturing enough buckeyballs to equip a tank would be cripplingly expensive and rather pointless considering you could buy an entire platoon of conventional tanks for the same cost, and then just call in an airstrike to destroy the enemy's mighty arsenal of a total 8 tanks in their army...

Money isn't really an issue in my nation, mass production is. Today nanotubes are only produced in laboratories, making it more unnecessarily expensive. I'll read some stuff on the production of the damn stuff, perhaps I can make an IC story to put machines doing it instead of a few scientists.
Remember too that Titanium is 'batch-produced', basically large-scale lab work, rather than mass-production smelter. With budget not-a-concern, you might be able to refine a mass-production process.

tag

Excellent, Coyld you produce 21 million Flak Jackets of that "new breed of Armor"

Excellent, Coyld you produce 21 million Flak Jackets of that "new breed of Armor"How about "no"? This is an OOC thread for people to discuss my ideas on the new armour, not to sell it.

I agree with Iuthia here. With a single economy of a single NS region of around 25 random nations being more powerful than the money of the whole RL world added up I am pretty sure the production of buckyball is no problem. I'm happy with extremely advanced armour, leaves the competition way behind.

Er... how come you agree with me, yet go on to completely miss my point and state the opposite? How come when I say "Highly advanced modern technology armour should be rare in you're armed forces in order to make players appreciate it's speciality" you go on to say "I could have all my forces with extremely advanced armour because of a Frightening economy which pwns real life"?

I don't know, but it kinda defeats the point of saying you agree with me when you largely ignore what I say. Unless you were agreeing with the very last line of the post... then maybe I could see some point in it all, though this is thread is mostly about modern technology armour and my last line was just stating simply that higher technology levels can easily excuse everyone equipped with better armour.

This is Guff posting as his fantasy/terror/future tech puppet. I should have said it a bit better. I agree on your point about the armour on every vessel is impossible. When you add up the overall costs of this project and the relative ease of destroying it with extremely heavy explosives, the economical benefits are nil. On the other hand, this is only going to be made for a single class of ships, which are still in development.

Though I shouldn't be so judgemental, most people want cool technology because it's cool... not because it assures victory, most of us would rather we lost because of good tactics and RP from the other side, not because the other guy claims his technology is better.I particular agree with this, but high-grade protection combined with superior tactics makes the RP a success, not technology alone.

Er... how come you agree with me, yet go on to completely miss my point and state the opposite? How come when I say "Highly advanced modern technology armour should be rare in you're armed forces in order to make players appreciate it's speciality" you go on to say "I could have all my forces with extremely advanced armour because of a Frightening economy which pwns real life"?People like to compare NS with the real world. That's why I keep saying Frightening economies just beat RL nations in every possible way. When people say "X is expensive so you should go with Y" all of such claims are based on RL prices per amount of said substance. It's not possible in NS because just about every roleplaying nation is frightening, and so is the consistency of NS economies. No fluctuations, sudden drops in currency etc. The economic enviroment of NS, being the frightening, all-consuming or a powerhouse is totally the same and perfect. Also why more advanced things are possible in large quantities. I never said and never will say all my forces will get this type of armour. It's impossible and it's not suited for tanks or armoured vehicles.

I agree with Iuthia here. With a single economy of a single NS region of around 25 random nations being more powerful than the money of the whole RL world added up I am pretty sure the production of buckyball is no problem. I'm happy with extremely advanced armour, leaves the competition way behind.I'm simply saying that RL economy is a pointless topic of discussion in NS, because of reasons said above. And about the armour, where did I say I'm putting it on all my (naval) units?

I'm not ignoring what you say, I just find your opinion the same as mine on the subject. This thread is meant for discussion on the armour specifications, not who agrees on what. You now know how I think about NS economies, should you have questions I'll be happy to answer them thru TG.

In my first post I never actually stated that you were equipping all you're forces with this armour... it was more advise then criticism, though I can see why you would read it as criticism as my second post was, which I thought was another poster going on to say he would have all his armour as advanced super gear. I'll put it down to skim reading.

I felt that the real reason not to have tons of advanced armour is more because it should be special and not because it's too costly... cost effectiveness isn't too much of an issue, depending on you're nations policies. I generally agree with you're point on Frightening economies, though one nations Frightening economy isn't that much better then America's, it's just you're nation is bigger then America and will likely have much more men in it's army and have similar (if not better) training.

Cost still matters, but if you've got a stupid military budget and the will to spend it then it's possible to mass produce high cost armour... though personally I would argue that the in game effect of the armour wouldn't be that much superiour to standard armour and could have arguements over it's modern tech status, so keeping it reversed for special situation/forces would make it all the more interesting when you bust out the high tech cool technology.

But meh, I'm not really the kind of guy to really argue over you're armour technology itself as Iuthia is really just post-modern technology most the time and we don't often attack other nations (which would force my technology level down to their standard). So do what you like with it, should I be forced down to modern technology when RPing with you then I'll admit it's got some minor advantage over our standard issue armour, unless it's too common, then the coolness of the armour would kinda wear off and it would just seem like a tech wank.

How about "no"? This is an OOC thread for people to discuss my ideas on the new armour, not to sell it.


At least I asked.

Why not use Alumina instead of diamond? Alumina is the stuff used in ballistic ceramics. not an expert on ballistics but it seems that Diamonds were more chosen on reputation, while there are better substances out there. In ballistics (as far as i know, and i could be talking out of my ass) the principle is to spread the impact energy over as wide an area as possible, and being completely rigid doesnt sound like a great way to do that.

Also the armour sounds like it would weigh a hell of a lot, so changing direction and speed would presumably be difficult. In a full blown naval battle it would be taking alot more hits than a lighter vessel due to its inability to manouver, and i wonder wether its higher durability would actually be worth it.

Having read up some on armour in naval vessels from what i have seen armour is considered to be if not secondary then certainly limited by the ships ability to go fast. Because a battleship can only be in one place at a time it needs to be able to react to situations fast. The armour you have proposed may be practical on something like an artillery barge, aircraft carrier or some other vessel that was never going to go fast in the first place or able to sit behind the lines.. but i personally would rather have lighter, faster vessels with good hitting power than prohibitively heavy, large vessels that rely on durability and presumably range.

Another factor is that while the surface may not burn, it could still be heated.. if these sufaces are all in contact with one another, then conducting heat through the hull could cause flash ignition on the other side.