NationStates Jolt Archive


OOC: Suggestions for dealing with "enemies"

Sarzonia
03-05-2005, 15:33
Let's face it. There are enemies everywhere you turn. In real life, countries are at each other's throats and it seems as though the precipice of war is everywhere you turn. People encounter coworkers, classmates, bandmates, etc. whom they just can't get along with every day of their lives. That is also true for NationStates roleplaying.

Before I delve into the discussion of enemies on NS, I need to make a distinction. There are people whose RP'd countries yours just can't stand, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get along with the player behind the country. I've seen people go from intense IC vitriol to friendly OOC banter about everything not having to do with NationStates at the drop of a hat. This post will deal with IC enemies. If you have someone who is an enemy OOC as well, I've made suggestions in other posts; namely, ignoring them or if they choose to break Max Barry's rules, showing you the appropriate channels to deal with them.

The first point I want to make is that, unless you RP as a war hungry country who has a legitimate need to declare war for some slight, you don't have to go to war at the first opportunity. There are plenty of avenues you can explore to show your displeasure with another country that don't involve sending your virtual sons and daughters off to battle.

Diplomacy
If, for instance, someone executes a minor for an offense such as first degree murder and your country abhors it, announce a condemnation of the country. Don't be afraid to post a condemnation of your own allies; some of the more interesting plot lines have come when one ally condemns another. For example, in a RP where I had a 15 year old boy executed for a premediated murder, Isselmere sent a carefully-worded condemnation my way. He's one of my closest allies and has been almost since I began playing NS. But yet, his government felt it couldn't stand by while one of its own closest allies was taking an action it disapproved of. In a later RP, I sent a carefully-worded reprimand to Isselmere's king.

Besides the standard run of condemnations, what happens if the country essentially ignores your concerns? Another tool that you can use that is often applied by RL countries is to recall your diplomatic corps and/or citizens from a country. If you are really displeased, you can expel the other country's diplomats and citizens. That is usually a next step that can get the message across that you aren't pleased and it's a way to do so without hurting your or your counterpart's economies.

Economic Tools
Suppose you've tried every trick in the diplomatic book and your efforts have not borne fruit? What then? Another place you can turn instead of the instant declaration of war is to impose economic sanctions on goods entering your country. From a punitive increase in tariffs to a full-scale embargo, the tools you have at your disposal are wide ranging and can sometimes be effective. Unfortunately, I haven't seen very many people RP the adverse impact of losing a major trading partner, but that has the potential to be a very interesting RP.

Another tool that I use at the Portland Iron Works is something called a black list. What that means is that countries that are on the black list are automatically denied the right to purchase anything from the Portland Iron Works. Be careful about employing these economic tactics. Many times, countries will impose their own tariffs or boycotts in retaliation for your economic warfare.

Precipice Of War
I suppose this next section could easily have gone under Diplomacy, but considering the severity, I decided to let it lead off its own section. One other tool you have at your disposal takes one step beyond even evicting diplomatic personnel from your country: Severing diplomatic relations. This is usually a stark measure that serves as a last resort before RL countries either prepare for war or just leave each other alone, save for political sniping at each other. But that step is one more you have in your arsenal that can either lead to reform or to further deteoriation in national relationships.

A tool that often either leads to full-scale war or to one country backing down from another is the threat of military action. Often, a country will begin combat exercises near another country's border or will send ships to international waters outside a country's soverign waters. In many cases, the buildup of forces has been enough to cause another country to back down. In others, it's led to war. Taking that to the next step, let me explain something about the naval blockade. In NationStates, the act of declaring a blockade is considered an act of war.

However, a "pre-blockade," if you will can be something that's called a defensive quarantine. It can take the form of allowing foodstuffs and essential medical supplies into the country, but preventing nuclear or other weapons of mass destruction from entering, or it can be examining goods to prevent the spread of communicable diseases. Actually referring to your fleets assembled off another country's waters (or, more likely, sending your fleets into his territorial waters) is considered an act of war on NS. One thing I've done in the past is to send fleets to international waters surrounding another countries to act as an "observation force." That is also a preliminary step: If war is declared, the fleets can become a blockading fleet. If the country in question backs down, they can just steam right back home.

When RL invades NS
Finally, I've been unfortunate enough to see and be part of a situation where NS animosities not only became indistinguishable from RL hostility; they've taken a back seat to RL enmity. As much as I've seen some people blast the practice of ignoring players, sometimes, it's necessary to prevent flame wars and namecalling that can drag down the RP experience for others. Reaching a peace accord ICly may be difficult, but it's much harder to make peace with a RL enemy, even one you only "see" on a computer screen. It's so hard, in fact, that I will not RP an alliance or a friendship with someone I don't like OOC. I'm not that good an actor.

Don't take this as a statement of gospel in exactly what you should do as a RPer, but think of this as a guide to add some wrinkles to your RP experience that might make things more interesting for you, the people who play with you, or the people who enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Praetonia
03-05-2005, 15:41
Hear, hear! The main thing I think is important for NS emnities and long-term feuds is to get to know, respect and perhaps like the other player. Ie. Generic Empire and I have always been on frosty terms, and have almost gone to war at least twice. This doesnt mean I dont respect him as an excellent RPer, and that doesnt mean we have to type stupid little OOC messages at each other like "OOC: You're gonna lose" or "OOC: Better back down before I destroy you". I've seen that happen so many times before and all it does is starts flamewars / makes the player involved dislike each other. If you dislike someone then you should stay away from their RPs. If your nation dislikes another nation then you should probably actually get involved in each others RPs and try to turn this national dislike into a good, on-going Rp.
Dracun imperium
03-05-2005, 15:45
*agrees with Prae*

I myself have had IC relations become OOC relations, but I try my best to stay away from them. But a tactic I learned from Generic Empire is to silent ignore. Which means ignore without telling them. It oftens prevent flame wars.
Noitan Teppup
03-05-2005, 15:54
Hehe... I don't think I've ever really had a serious war with another nation... the other options have always come first and the only occasions which have driven Iuthia to war are those such as the use of nuclear weapons to assasinate another nations leader using diplomatic channels to smuggle the bomb, that pushed us (IC) over the limit of reasonable responce as there is no real assurances that any diplomacy could work with the nation... funnily enough we never finished that thread, the nation didn't post after me and Edolia started mobilisations. Nevermind.

Generally I would agree with everything you have said here... though as I'm sure you know everything isn't written in stone, creativity is a wonderful thing and many nations have used very... interesting... methods of getting at their enemies.

Personally I love diplomacy... it's just more fun for me and more clean in comparison to the long drawn out OOC arguement that war tends to become.
Chronosia
03-05-2005, 15:59
Diplomacy is alright for making allies; but, as a force of Chaos, we don't really need valid reasons for war; take my Black Crusade, for example; we simply went after enemies of Chaos, those who served the God-Emperor, for example; or those that tried to stop us:P Which reminds me, thats still going.,..
Sarzonia
03-05-2005, 16:27
*agrees with Prae*

I myself have had IC relations become OOC relations, but I try my best to stay away from them. But a tactic I learned from Generic Empire is to silent ignore. Which means ignore without telling them. It oftens prevent flame wars.The only problem I have with that tactic is when people try to drag you into RPs with them and you ignore them. Otherwise, it sounds like a great idea.

And actually, GE is one of the people I had in mind when I thought of the stark difference between IC and OOC. He's a genuinely great guy OOCly and a brilliant writer.
Sarzonia
03-05-2005, 17:56
bump
Huahin
03-05-2005, 18:06
Are there any good RPs going on at the moment? Despite being one of the much larger nations I haven't joined one in a while.
Sarzonia
03-05-2005, 18:42
Are there any good RPs going on at the moment? Despite being one of the much larger nations I haven't joined one in a while.There are quite a few RPs going on at the moment... I don't have any links off the top of my head, but there are several that bear watching or getting involved with.
Sarzonia
04-05-2005, 14:31
bump
Farmina
04-05-2005, 14:51
I can't help but agree with this.

I have several times been declared war on by nations, who used this as their first tool. This is especially annoying when they haven't fully comprehended Farmina's position. I have been apologised to on several occasions by people that attacked me, who misunderstood the situation. RPers at least trying least trying to open diplomatic channels.

Just a word on OOC, IC; what annoys me is when ideologically opposed nations IC ally because they get on OOC.
Risban
04-05-2005, 19:48
TAG

Excellent work.
Sarzonia
25-05-2005, 16:35
Just a word on OOC, IC; what annoys me is when ideologically opposed nations IC ally because they get on OOC.I know what you mean. That gets into a less than plausible story (like how would Sarzonia be able to explain a close IC relationship with Generic Empire? It just wouldn't make sense ICly. OOCly, it could make perfect sense because we have similar musical tastes and we can both bitch about the same radio stations. But ICly, it's too unbelievable to make it work.
The Macabees
25-05-2005, 16:38
I have to agree that in Nation|States, different nations at war tend to grow some sort of OOC animosity between the two. I think it's hard for people to understand that, after all, this is just a game.

In any case, nice work [tag].
Xeraph
25-05-2005, 17:21
I don't know if this belongs here, but I have a huge problem with RPers grammar and spelling. Maybe because I used to be an English teacher. I know that in the heat of battle, or even just a "good idea" spontaneously coming out, that words can be mispelled, or a comma can be forgotten. But.....some (actually a lot) of these posts are atrocious. The reason I'm putting this observation here is that when I see this blatant disregard for the basics of writing, I have a tendency to do one of two things: just ignore the thread (which a lot of times is a shame, because it had the makings of a really good story), or just nuke the moron (which to date, I've yet to do. I've always overcome the urge.)
I don't know what can be done about this, but EVERYBODY!!!!PLEASE!!!! Before you hit the enter key, check your spelling and grammar. It is quite often hard to follow a post when there is no continuity between sentences (never mind periods, commas, etc.) and many mistakes in battle have occured because of this.
Ilek-Vaad
25-05-2005, 17:32
OOC: Not bad at all , Sarzonia makes interesting points. I personally feel there should be much more diplomatic RP in Nation States. All to often diplomatic RP is used merely as a tool to ICly justify a war that nations OOC have agreed will happen.

It makes much more sense to RP IC diplomacy and react naturally as a real nation would under the circumstances, instead of stiffly scripting a scenario that will automatically lead to war or hostlities, this is unrealistic and in my view, undesireable.

As far as OOC hostility, I only have two OOC 'enemies' and they are only 'enemies' because they attacked me verbally OOC for IC reasons, which I again believe is undesireable. I only have one nation on my ignore list currently and I have no OOC animosity for this person, the ignore is in place because of ludicrous lapses in IC etiquette. I won't go into OOC anymore than to just say that.

Having said all that, there is no way that I can possibly 'hate' anyone in an OOC capacity, as I haven't ever met any of you, but there are a whole bunch of NSers out there that are ridiculously inflexible and take this game waaaaaaay to seriously.
Generic empire
25-05-2005, 19:59
Another good guide, Sarz. Probably should be added to the consolidation sticky if it hasn't already.

A word on the so-called "silent ignore" that DI mentioned. The silent ignore isn't really an IGNORE in the traditional sense, in that it is more just a personal resolution not to RP with someone who you feel you can't get on with well enough to RP with them and not fall into the sometimes inevitable trap of OOC argument gridlock.

Not making the ignore 'official' by telling the person you are in fact ignoring them allows you some liberty in that you can still read their RPs and decide to change your mind if you find that they aren't as bad (in whatever sense that means) as you thought they were, and if that becomes the case, you can go right back to participating in their RPs and hopefully develop a decent OOC relationship, which is what I think Sarzonia is stressing here.

Most important of all, be flexible. Of course there are some people you won't be able to stand, but i've been here for nearly a year now, and i've only found a few people that I can RP with in a completely streamlined fashion without butting heads over what direction the story should take. I've adapted to deal with the fact that everyone has their own ideas for the direction of the RP and their own perceptions of what's going on, so often you have to reach a compromise. I'm not saying you have to only do closed or planned RPs, and in fact, I think the open RP has far more potential for greatness than the planned one, however, unfortunately the open and unplanned RPs that actually achieve their goals of amusing IC itneraction are becoming more and more scarce.

If you're in an RP with people you don't consider 'friends' or even 'friendly' out of character, try to work things out. Coordination and talking over IRC or IM messenger services really does work wonders for IC interaction, even if you aren't specifically planning any particular directions for the story.

That's my two cents. Again, another fine piece of work, Sarzonia.
Taldaan
25-05-2005, 20:04
The problem with diplomacy is that it is tricky, time-consuming, and many nations will simply shrug it off. Maybe I've been reading the wrong RPs, but trade sanctions seem to help the target's economy- their allies jump to the rescue by tripling trade. Blockades tend to cause avalanches of indignant nations towards the blockader, each member screaming "Warmonger!" and "Imperialist!". It is therefore unsurprising that many reactions consist of "OMG j00 eebil gen0cidz0r! I invades j00 OMG UBERn00Kz!!!"
Ilek-Vaad
25-05-2005, 21:08
The problem with diplomacy is that it is tricky, time-consuming, and many nations will simply shrug it off.

Considering that most wars either drag on forever, or end as flamewars, I would rather have a tricky, time consuming diplomatic RP. It's amazing how many players demand 'realism' out of NS warfare, but then turn around and dismiss 'realistic' diplomacy. Diplomacy in the real world is tricky and time consuming.

If you are a player that demands 'realism' in war, it's just hypocritical to shrug off 'realistic' diplomacy'. However, if you don't care about realism and live in your own little fantasy world with my little ponies and strawberry shortcake, then forget everything I said. ;)