NationStates Jolt Archive

((OOC: im quite sure my info and facts are correct. Excuse me if a few things are wrong, but try and get the point of this thread))

TO: All nations involved w/ the FC conflict
From: The nation ok HailandKill
Concerning: FC conflict

Recently alot of conflict and controversy has arisen over the small nation of FC. Nations have rallied behind FC, and nations have rallied against them. This conflict has turned from a local conflict to a large scale problem, due to the fact many nations have objected to FC's extending of national waters and nuclear policies. Both sides (the coalition backing FC and the coalition against it) have not offered any comprimise of any nature that is truly fair to both parties. The nations who have offered a "back down or we will declare war" ultimatum have only caused anger and outrage.In an attempt to to resolve issues between both coalitions the nation of HK is going to attempt to to offer a satisfying comprimise to all sides.

The nation of HK is now declaring FULL neutrality. Any previous stances are now null and void. We are not playing favorites in any of our solutions.

Now to address the main issue. Defending a country with nuclear weapons is not a new concept, nor is extending national waters. The real problem is that that FC has a stance that any ship entering national waters is anb act of agression and although this isnt neccesarily true, nuking non-agressive nations is indefinatly wrong. We ask the anti-FC coalition, and nations poised to strike not to attack as this can cause a nuclear exchange and also these nations, in our eyes, were to hasty to declare war.

Here is our set of solutions. We deem these fair to everyone; also we would like input from all nations as to the best solution.

1A. FC, if you want 100NM (which is quite large), defend it w/o the use of nukes and you wouldnt have to wait for explanations. By complying to this you are detering the chance of armeggedon and the creation of large amounts of fall-out.

2. FC, if you want to still use nukes AND keep the 100NM border then you must allow ships to pass through the 100NM border without nuking them right away, especially if they havent had time to provide an explanation. (OOC: Acts or declarations of war are usually explanations, and if you get attacked w/o a dec. of war you will probably get the support of alot of nations. ((hell id even help you then)) )

3. If you want to use nukes, and not wait for an explanation then you must make the border smaller. A 40NM or lower would be deemed alot more fair if you are going to nuke w/o waiting for an explanation.

We hope, in some way, we have helped. All solutions were thought out (OOC: during the schoolday i though of this thouraly since skool fuckin sucks) and are quite fair to everyone. If you want to comply to one but want the terms worked out better we are open for relations and suggestions.

Thank You to all nations.
-Signed President of HailandKill Revello

"You havent kept up with the situation, and you dont seem to have a clue about why we actually declared the 100nm boundary, or why we need nuclear weapons to defend ourselves."

King George III

ooc:
seriously FC, why not test underground.

ooc:
seriously FC, why not test underground.


OOC: READ the threads, this has NOTHING to do with testing.

ooc: He claims he needed 100nm to safely test neclear bombs so he wouldn't hurt his own people.

ooc: He claims he needed 100nm to safely test neclear bombs so he wouldn't hurt his own people.


OOC: Wrong.

He claimed 100nm so that if he was invaded and faced with impending doom, he could retalliate with nuclear weapons and not have it harm his people. THAT is the reason for the 100nm zone, and the use of nuclear weapons stems from the fact that they have little to no navy at all, and nukes are the ONLY way for them to defend themselves.

OOC: Wrong.

He claimed 100nm so that if he was invaded and faced with impending doom, he could retalliate with nuclear weapons and not have it harm his people. THAT is the reason for the 100nm zone, and the use of nuclear weapons stems from the fact that they have little to no navy at all, and nukes are the ONLY way for them to defend themselves.

You do realise that his declaration of immediate destruction for any ship entering the zone is practically a declaration of war, he doesnt need territorial waters that large, hell 40 would keep his population relatively safe from the afteraffects, 50 would be almost garaunteed safety, since the larges nuke that I know of destroys everything within about 30 mies of its location, the extra twenty would be plenty of time to evacuate the coast, since even 100 miles would have some sort of fallout reaching them eventually, not very soon, but ventually, in the form of irradiated chunks of ships that would wash up on the beach, or in the form of radiologicals carried on the winds, at chernobyl people up to (I may be wrong about this figure) about 200 miles away were affected by the explosion.

"You havent kept up with the situation, and you dont seem to have a clue about why we actually declared the 100nm boundary, or why we need nuclear weapons to defend ourselves."

King George III

If you hadn't done something to provoke someone you wouldn't need nukes for defense in the first place.

ooc: Chernobyl was a different thing. There was significantly more fissible material involved and it kepts going for some hours. Read up on things before you use them as evidence next time.

And Mini Miehm, equally I wouldnt need to threaten the use of nukes if people didnt threaten to invade. It works both ways, only I am within my sovereign rights as a nation to develop nuclear weapons, whereas they do not have the right to invade me. I'm not replying IC because I have ignored you since you treid to destroy me with a space fleet.

ooc: Chernobyl was a different thing. There was significantly more fissible material involved and it kepts going for some hours. Read up on things before you use them as evidence next time.

And Mini Miehm, equally I wouldnt need to threaten the use of nukes if people didnt threaten to invade. It works both ways, only I am within my sovereign rights as a nation to develop nuclear weapons, whereas they do not have the right to invade me. I'm not replying IC because I have ignored you since you treid to destroy me with a space fleet.

And a nuclear bombardment would have to be rather large in order to stop a threat that left you in danger of "imminent destruction", a nuke is not a magic wand, it can be stopped, and even one H-bomb (fusion warhead) has nearly two or three times the power of the Chernobyl disaster, and a significant increase in radiologicals over a conventional fission warhead, so I do know a good deal of what I'm talking about, nuclear physics is a hobby of mine, so I started researching and it turns out that a hydrogen bomb is capable of destroying everything within fifty miles, and being severely damaging in the form of persistent radiologicals out to two hundred miles, do not lecture me about looking things up, I already did my research. If you hadn't demanded nukes, which some nations may see as rather threatening, you might not have been threatened with invasion, I would not trust someonne who didn't merely ask for nukes, but instead demanded that they be given to him, and there are quite a few nations out there who feel much the same way, a nuke is pretty hard to use in a defensive manner, it's alot easier to attack with them than it is to stop an attack by another with them.

OOC: Wrong.

He claimed 100nm so that if he was invaded and faced with impending doom, he could retalliate with nuclear weapons and not have it harm his people. THAT is the reason for the 100nm zone, and the use of nuclear weapons stems from the fact that they have little to no navy at all, and nukes are the ONLY way for them to defend themselves.

ooc:to put it simply you havn't seen where he stated he used it for nuclear testing

"You havent kept up with the situation, and you dont seem to have a clue about why we actually declared the 100nm boundary, or why we need nuclear weapons to defend ourselves."

OOC: actualy i have, and its a fucking concept asshole. i have seen most of the shit that has been going on ,.

And a nuclear bombardment would have to be rather large in order to stop a threat that left you in danger of "imminent destruction", a nuke is not a magic wand, it can be stopped, and even one H-bomb (fusion warhead) has nearly two or three times the power of the Chernobyl disaster, and a significant increase in radiologicals over a conventional fission warhead, so I do know a good deal of what I'm talking about, nuclear physics is a hobby of mine, so I started researching and it turns out that a hydrogen bomb is capable of destroying everything within fifty miles, and being severely damaging in the form of persistent radiologicals out to two hundred miles, do not lecture me about looking things up, I already did my research.
Really? You arent very good at it then. Three points:

1) A thermonuclear device could destroy as little as a football pitch or as much as a continent (in theory, of course practical limits mean neither of these is really possible) depending on how much material is ued.

2) A pure fusion warhead emmits absolutely no radiation. However, a fission warhead is required to get the temperature high enough to allow fusion to take place. For any given yield, by very nature of being thermonuclear the thermonuclear warhead will produce fewer radioactive particles.

3) Where did I say which type of weapon I was using?

OOC: actualy i have, and its a fucking concept asshole. i have seen most of the shit that has been going on ,.
lol. Any more insults and you'll be reported to the moderators. That and your post demonstrates that you dont have a clue why I'm using nuclear weapons or why I claimed the territory.

HailandKill = Forum Ignored

I don't even want to read his posts any more if he can't be civil in out of character conversation.

Really? You arent very good at it then. Three points:

1) A thermonuclear device could destroy as little as a football pitch or as much as a continent (in theory, of course practical limits mean neither of these is really possible) depending on how much material is ued.

2) A pure fusion warhead emmits absolutely no radiation. However, a fission warhead is required to get the temperature high enough to allow fusion to take place. For any given yield, by very nature of being thermonuclear the thermonuclear warhead will produce fewer radioactive particles.

3) Where did I say which type of weapon I was using?

If you want to destry a fleet you'll need something comparable to, and possibly larger than, the Bikini bomb, it destroyed a fleet of WW2 battleships, but newer ships are tougher to destroy, so you need a bigger bomb, erego a fusion head, which may not have much airborne radiation, but anything touched by the nuclear fireball will be radioactive, meaning that the casing the nuke was in, which will be made into a fine pwder, will be scattered into the ocean, chunks of whatever you destroyed will also be radioactive from contact, those chunks will pollute your seas and some may wash up on your shores, that is not good for civilians. The thermonuclear warhead will not produce less particles, merely particles that don't last as long, but any radiological fallout will be an extremely unpleasant event for your citizenry, if you want a true monster of a bomb with little radiation, use AM(yes AM does exist, we just can't use it for anything) and encapsulate it in bucky balls, that'll give you a really stable, and really safe explosive, that, when it goes off could take out most of kentucky with one bomb. If you want to reduce effects on your population, AM is the way to go, and it'd let you shrink your borders to something reasonable, like fifty or forty miles.

[OOC: Actually modern ships are much easier to destroy than WWII ships because they're largely unarmoured... I also don't see why an atomic bomb would have any difficulty whatsoever in destroying ships regardless of their type or relative age.

Oh, and anti-matter is ignored for being FT by all MT nation. I know it exists, but using it as a bomb will get Feline Catfish ignored... not good...]

Oh, and anti-matter is ignored for being FT by all MT nation. I know it exists, but using it as a bomb will get Feline Catfish ignored... not good...]

OoC: Define "all" since I don't consider it FT.

OoC: Define "all" since I don't consider it FT.
I consider it FT.

OOC: whoops i did lose my cool for a second, and could fire that off because today=bad day. i apologize. (i mean it)

"Seeing the recent threats to our national sovereignty merely through developing nuclear weapons, we have decided that in order to use nuclear weapons legally against an invading fleet at a great enough range to not affect our own nation, we must extend our territorial waters to 100nm from our nation.

uh that means you extended it so you could nuke someone w/o you being hurt. you cannot claim i dont know anything when it says you extend your waters so you can nuke and take everyones elses life and preserve your own civilians

so if i dont know anything why is there a coalition against you? and seriouslyy bro you could develop an navy to fight instead of nukes. nukes are the noob excuse.

[OOC: HailandKill - you misunderstand him. What he's saying is that there wouldnt even be a fleet in the 100NMi unless it was coming to invade him, and if it's coming to invade him then destroying it is sort of justified, dont you think?]

OOC: cant say i do. 100NM is quite large, i can see maybe 35 but 100 no way.

[OOC: HailandKill - you misunderstand him. What he's saying is that there wouldnt even be a fleet in the 100NMi unless it was coming to invade him, and if it's coming to invade him then destroying it is sort of justified, dont you think?]

If he had a fleet he wouldn't need to have such large territorial waters. He could engage in actual by god combat, instead of nuking anything that moves. But a fleet would actually require him to RP combat, and then he might lose, which seems to be his reason for having nukes, specificaly to prevent him from losing a war, ever. I just don't like the way he's doing it, if he built a fleet and then he said that if his fleet was destroyed he'd nuke his enemies I'd understand, but he didn't build a fleet, just expanded his territorial waters into the shipping lanes and said everybody in them would be nuked.

IC:
Though I'm sure this has been mentioned, if FC were to fire nukes at approaching ships, then he would make the sea around his nation un travelable for years to come, he would become isolated and his nation would slowly begin to die, but thats just one of the many reasons he should not have a border enhancement, but thats not why we came here.

OOC:
In another thread, this idea had been posted by myself, it seems more fitting here:


IC:
Myself and my advisors have come up with an interesting proposal, not really a proposal, an agreement. Feline Catfish now has several powerful allies and supporters along with its small but potent nuclear aresenal. We think that perhaps neither side should have to give in, rather Feline Catfish keeps its weapons along with its allies, but the coalition is allowed to moniter all movements made by Feline Catfish concerning these weapons. Of course, one FC makes its own military and defense force, the allies can leave and the monitering can be toned down, and FC will only be subject to the same checks that all nations armed with nuclear weapons are given.

OOC: that sounds quite fair.

OOC: that sounds quite fair.


OOC:

Aye, all I need is for FC to agree to it, along with at least one of his allies, and at least two members of the coalition.


IC:

Laskon wishes people to give their general opinions on the agreement, and if they want minor changes to please do so, but nothing that changes the basic part of the plan.

You can already track their movements... satellite technology has gotten to the point where it's rather easy to monitor large deployments and observe nations actions.

As for their claims over waters... well Iuthia itself has more then 14 nuatical miles for it's own territorial waters, and there are many other nations who has around 100 NM themselves, this isn't a new thing, it's just this guy has annoyed alot of people who are trying to disarm them by force, which in turn is forcing him into the position he feels he must use his weapons as his army certainly isn't powerful enough... hell, the only thing stopping him is the fact other nations are protecting him.

Their land isn't near anyone elses and their claims don't mess with other nations trade routes... this has already been established. The only ships which must get that close to their land are his own, his allies and those who wish to invade him.

Give the man some space to chill out... everyone trying to force them to do things isn't helping the situation any.

OOC: well i like that solution alot. ive done my reading and FC realluy hasenty done anything wrong. i would support them, my info was a bit onesided. but maybe you and i can make a truly fair treaty bcuz if war breaks out were ALL fucked

OOC: personally, i don't care too much about what FC does (BTW, i haven't followed this, so please correct me if I got something wrong).

i say let him have only some of the nukes, but keep the 100 nm boundary. if some sort trade, passenger, etc. ship comes into the waters, it would be escorted by FC naval ships, and if it was any sort of military ship, FC would have the jurisdiction to do what it wanted.

OOC: I say let him have only some of the nukes, but keep the 100 nm boundary.

The only way that is happening is if he gives the nuclear weapons he has to another nation... until that time the only way to do it is by force... and given how many nations are protecting his soveriegnity, thats alot of force to topple.

The best chance in my opinion is to just give him the time to chill out, getting any sense out of the nation isn't going to happen while they are looking at invasion from various groups of nations looking to force them to hand over their weapons... as long as people are threatening him they will threaten back with their own weapons.

You can already track their movements... satellite technology has gotten to the point where it's rather easy to monitor large deployments and observe nations actions.

As for their claims over waters... well Iuthia itself has more then 14 nuatical miles for it's own territorial waters, and there are many other nations who has around 100 NM themselves, this isn't a new thing, it's just this guy has annoyed alot of people who are trying to disarm them by force, which in turn is forcing him into the position he feels he must use his weapons as his army certainly isn't powerful enough... hell, the only thing stopping him is the fact other nations are protecting him.

Their land isn't near anyone elses and their claims don't mess with other nations trade routes... this has already been established. The only ships which must get that close to their land are his own, his allies and those who wish to invade him.

Give the man some space to chill out... everyone trying to force them to do things isn't helping the situation any.
*cough*Danegeld*cough*

Since most seem to like the main part of the treaty, we can move onto the water way aspect of it. I say he shouldn't be given the full 100nm of the water, simply because if he is forced to use his only defense (nukes) against an approaching fleet, than he will make the water ways untravelable for years to come across the area, and the radiation will spread, slightly, so it will affect trade. He should only be given half of his original demand, otherwise he may take this as an excuse to fire his missles at anyone in the area.

The fact his allies are there is reason enough not to use those weapons.

Exactly, but he might feel threatened enough he has to use them.

Especially since the war has now technically begun...

Meh... personally I've tried as much as I'm willing to today... I guess my methods are probably too reliant on the good nature of other nations. So I'm just going to wash my hands of this messy affair. I was never actually allied to either side during this affair so it's not like there are any obligations I wouldn't be fulfilling.

It's just a shame it couldn't go better.

Since most seem to like the main part of the treaty, we can move onto the water way aspect of it. I say he shouldn't be given the full 100nm of the water, simply because if he is forced to use his only defense (nukes) against an approaching fleet, than he will make the water ways untravelable for years to come across the area, and the radiation will spread, slightly, so it will affect trade. He should only be given half of his original demand, otherwise he may take this as an excuse to fire his missles at anyone in the area.

If he had a fleet he wouldn't need nukes, he could fight off an invasion, not just blow it to hell and destroy the environment.

Aye, I've doubled the number of subscribed threads I've had since last week keeping track of all this.

I'll check in on this all tomorrow, hopefully it hasn't all gone to hell. :eek:

Edit:

The point is he doesn't have a fleet, so he'd be forced to use the nukes.

Aye, I've doubled the number of subscribed threads I've had since last week keeping track of all this.

Not me, I have like 50 threads in that thing at any one time and I regularly clean it out of the crappy threads I don't want to read ever again, like these Feline Catfish threads... this is the last one I have and it's going to a better place.

If he had a fleet he wouldn't need to have such large territorial waters. He could engage in actual by god combat, instead of nuking anything that moves. But a fleet would actually require him to RP combat, and then he might lose, which seems to be his reason for having nukes, specificaly to prevent him from losing a war, ever. I just don't like the way he's doing it, if he built a fleet and then he said that if his fleet was destroyed he'd nuke his enemies I'd understand, but he didn't build a fleet, just expanded his territorial waters into the shipping lanes and said everybody in them would be nuked.
As he said in his Doctrine thread, he can't afford a fleet, and he's right. He's only a 12m or whatever nation. THe best he could afford would be a couple of ex-WWII frigates and a carrier capable of lifting half a sea plane. I think maybe you should all actually read that thread, because it does explain quite good tactical reasoning behind everything he's done, and at the end of the day, none of it affects any of you in the slightest, unless you sail a fleet into the 100NMi territorial waters, which you have no reason to. Ok?