NationStates Jolt Archive

International Incidents in the one forum that I probably know the best, seeing as this is where I got my first start at NationStates. Now in the last few weeks, I've noticed a pretty swift change in the quality of RP'ing here. I'm not targetting any specific nation for this, because its a group effort here. All I see is II being made fun of, for being host to the newer people who feel it's necessary to declare war upon the entirety of NationStates. Now, of course, there isn't much we can do to prevent these things from happening, but there are a few things that we can do.

In order for International Incidents to gain back the respect it deserves, we need to RP to impress. Now of course, that's not the purpose of RP'ing. The purpose of RP'ing is to create a story, to make friends, and to use your creative imagination, and that is something I haven't seen in II too often anymore.

One of the trends that has been set here, a long time ago, was the "I'm an evil nation who likes to execute people for no reason just so I can get condemnations" trend. This happens so often that it gets really old. Now I'm not saying that making yourself out to be a bad nation is a horrible thing, but if you're going to do so, go the extra mile at creating situations that no one has ever heard of before. "I'm executing 10,000 citizens because they oppose me" is probably the oldest RP in the book. Sure, it can be pulled off if you RP it correctly, but think of something more original. To become an evil nation, there is so much more involved in it. You need to show the depth of your leaders evil prowess, rather than going ahead and doing things just to piss off other people.

If I were to become evil...

Lady Destra thought about it for quite some time now. She finally took hold of Euroslavia, once again, and was looking to show the rest of the world that she was the rightful ruler. There were so many things going through her mind at this point as to what her first action within Euroslavia should be. Certainly, there were still those who opposed her ascension to power. Perhaps making those dissidents vanish into thin air was the best way to secure her power? That was too easy... Her mind had certainly become even more corrupt than before, in her time in exile. The anger that she held in every day for the past twenty years had slowly built up, and now she was ready to release it upon those people who forced her to leave in the first place. Dictator of Euroslavia. That had a nice ring to it. Now the rest of the world needed to know her by a first name basis. What was the best way to do that? Executing the remaining Communists within her own nation was always an option, but again, that would be too easy.

She continued to meditate within the chamber of her Palace. Inacting some sort of... law to banish those opinions of which oppose her was a good idea. Perhaps it should be illegal to discuss the idea of Communism in schools and businesses? Why limit it to those when I can ban it across the nation? Any group found to be doing so would be punished.... but how? The punishment needs to be creative.

Now here's a way to get our creative juices flowing. What should Lady Destra do to get rid of Communism in her nation? Executing the Communists is not an option. That would cause too much of a stir in her unstable nation, and in the rest of the world.

There's just so much more that can be done besides killing all of those who oppose your leader. You've gotta make it creative, and add an unsuspected twist to what you have planned.

Basically, this thread is a discussion on exactly how we can improve the quality of RP'ing in II. Feel free to bring up any point for discussion.

I agree with what youve said, but it wont happen. Threads like this have been made sporadically for a while now, and while they may work for a week or so, II just does not have the quality of role players that the Nationstates forums does. This is probably because it seems like II has the majority of like you said newer players, but also because it has the youngest players age and maturity wise. About a week ago, not naming names, but I saw someone claim they were only eight years old. And while their interest in trying to write stories and role play with people much older than they are, is usually thrown into the crapper by them not making their points come across as fluently as they thought they had, and also because of other players (sadly I admit I am guilty of this too) see one mistake and then automatically shoot them down and more or less (unless the kid is really stubborn) ruins any chance the person has of ever being respected for their role plays.

It is because of this I think there are so many copy cat threads in II all of the time. The younger players see someone that is well known and use their idea prety much to the T. AMF has this happen to him almost daily. But the sad thing with that example is that some other players who have been here for a while, but still have troubles role playing copy him a lot, thus reinforcing the younger players' lack of effort at coming up with new ideas.

Another reason for this, in my opinion, are that the seemingly closed role playing cliques that seem to run rampant through the Nationstates forum make it hard for a new role player to get his/her start there, especially if they are not sure aout their skill writing. The final reason I am going to point out is the name the II itself. The term International Incidents seems to attract a lot more of the inexperienced players simply because they see the name and think that it is where they have to go to role play important matters, while Nationstates does not seem very appealing to a new player simply because the name isnt as straight forward as International Incidents. Thats how I chose to role play in II instead of NS, because of the name.

Well thats just my two cents on the subject and I hope someone can make some use of this thread and at least attempt to create a new crisis because its gotten so bad that I would rather see someone role play being a nation of bamboo trees being invaded by an evil army of Koalas than another genocide thread right now.

I concur, but given the fact I am quite ill... I have no real suggestions to add or truly expand upon other than let's not shut out the new guys and girls... we all had our own starts, and i'm quite sure the writing of each of us was rather atrocious and i'm sure each of made rather foolish claims... but through persistence and the guidance of others we older veterans have found solid writing styles, characters and nations that are well liked and respected - if not for ideology than for complexity and development.

I think the veterans of II need to consider that when we see a new nation that says or does something we consider... odd, foolish, stupid, or irrational. The idea that younger generations ought to respect their elders, which is something I personally subscribe to, carries with it some obligations for the elders. They are to be the teachers and mentors of the young ones. So let us not be closed-minded when someone new comes along. Let's try to get involved and help them... after all, who knows where the next uber-cool RPer will come from...

But I'm sick, so that's probably quite a bit of non-sensical rambling...

I have to agree, I don't see much in the way of quality RP's anymore.
Now, it's rare that I read an RP that doesnt affect my nation, or that the title doesn't catch my interest in some way, so my scope is limited. But it seems everyone is doing the same things, and not alot of people are putting much effort into doing it.
I don't think my RP skills are all that good, but I do make an effort to be descriptive and detail what is going on when I RP. I don't see that alot around here, espically in war RP's (With exceptions of course).

But, I have to agree that it's not likely to change. People will always do the easiest thing, and doing somehing right is never easy.

I may not be a very prominent counter or RPer here, but I'm always willing to help the new guys.

I agree with pretty much everything that has been said so far. I agree that the quality of RP has gone way down, and that's why I've been trying some new things the past few days.

It is because of this I think there are so many copy cat threads in II all of the time. The younger players see someone that is well known and use their idea prety much to the T. AMF has this happen to him almost daily. But the sad thing with that example is that some other players who have been here for a while, but still have troubles role playing copy him a lot, thus reinforcing the younger players' lack of effort at coming up with new ideas.

You hit the nail right on the head. I'm not the only one though that has this happen, but without trying to be arrogant or put forth an ego, I do agree that it happens to me a lot. This is why I've been testing the waters to see if I can possibly change up my style, but I haven't found anything yet that works.

For almost 2 years I've RP'd in I.I exclusively. My goal was to help make I.I a good RP community, and decided that the best way to do this would be to lead by example. This is why I've taken so much time to make my RP's as quality as possible. Unfortunatly Nascent is right, and I think a lot of people who are having trouble finding a style look at whatever (or whoever) is popular and latch onto their style. This is frustrating for everybody, because every day we see the exact same threads.

I'm thinking of turning AMF into a 'good' nation just to counter the insane influx of 'evil' and 'genocidal' nations. Almost 2 years ago I was commiting genocide when it was the taboo thing on NationStates, and now genocide in I.I is commonplace. This has got to stop, and if I need to change my RP style to help shift the community away from this trend, I'll do it.

Bottom line is this, I've invested A LOT of time into this forum and community, and I'm not giving up yet.

Nice to see my thread has sparked off a discussion how to improve II, instead of looking backwards every time the goings get tough or boring.

Ok, sorry to perhaps make a smallish statement...

We had a rather long MSN conversation on this topic last night between some of the 'great and the good' of the II forum (i.e. the active and (semi) decent RPers). We came up with an intiative with the help of Austar Union with Skinny87 helping to give a younger players viewpoint. This was:

To start example RP's, which would be linked to Euro's intro thread where once a newbie had done all which Euro perscribed in order to help them be ready for NS proper, they could telegram a person involved in said RP with ideas. They would then be allowed in or perhaps started an RP seperately with where the older player(s) would help them RP and point out do's and don'ts which perhaps are harder to read about than to learn in practice.

The players involved in this will try to cover all the types of roleplay we can think of in our example RP's from warfare to diplomacy and even some economic horseplay.

On a side note, we amongst ourselves decided it was perhaps the problem with II attitudes that were at fault thus we made a few general recommendations:

1) The old alliances be broken up (which newbie can stop even the depleted NATO members, the RWC, the IADF etc). The RWC is prepared to lead the way by disbanding itself in order to get II back on track.

2) Well RPed tech be accepted, as long as it has been evaluated and properly RPed in it's creation (i.e. not just saying i've got Hover Tanks and 'Predator' style Armed UAVs).

3) Setting up unofficial RP player mods from the old players, these could then help to solve differences in RP's, especially the IC ones.

4) Helping new people rather than shooting from the hip with soft ignores, trying to foster a better environment for the younger players.

5) We recommend all Earth's disband (unless these are specifically different RPs, like Earth BC that kind of thing but Earth 0-8 has to go), this will serve to stop the 'but you don't own X on Y Earth' style of RP as well as allowing anyone to play with anyone rather than [Earth V] or [Earth II] only.

6) We also suggust people stop [Closing] RP's, rather putting the signs in the top lines that they are open but only to those who TG (or whatever) with ideas and can perhaps provide evidence of their RPing skills. Which we feel is fair enough, we aim to give people the references with our example RP's.

Sorry for any mistakes, I am too tired to check this currently.

Earths also have to go, but otherwise I agree with TMG.

I know I'm not considered one of the top RPers in II, but I would still like to state my opinion on the matter.
I also agree about the copying of common ideas, but I think a bigger problem is just a really low standard of RPing.
I think one of the best threads I saw in II, don't remember who it was started by, but it was "Twinnage", a thread where an experienced RPer twins himself with a new nation, helps them, shows them the ropes etc...
I think if an idea like that could be brought back, it could be really good for II.

I know I'm not considered one of the top RPers in II, but I would still like to state my opinion on the matter.
I also agree about the copying of common ideas, but I think a bigger problem is just a really low standard of RPing.
I think one of the best threads I saw in II, don't remember who it was started by, but it was "Twinnage", a thread where an experienced RPer twins himself with a new nation, helps them, shows them the ropes etc...
I think if an idea like that could be brought back, it could be really good for II.

It's the same thing really Sanct, just more learning as they are going rather than just conversing about it.

Ideally we would like a thread about how to get yourself started in this way added to the stickies perhaps in Euro's thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413916 Perhaps a good idea to link ya'll to the thread that spurred the madness. The roleplay quality in II is really, really low. I mean, some people write a thread of three sentences (not paragraphs) and get tons of replies, when I write a long and well thought-out story nobody replies. Frustrating to say the least.

I find another problem is players don’t move on from things that happened in the past they keep flaming people who have grown out of it. because they never want to let go that hampers rp as well and that doesn’t give chances.

1) The old alliances be broken up (which newbie can stop even the depleted NATO members, the RWC, the IADF etc). The RWC is prepared to lead the way by disbanding itself in order to get II back on track.

2) Well RPed tech be accepted, as long as it has been evaluated and properly RPed in it's creation (i.e. not just saying i've got Hover Tanks and 'Predator' style Armed UAVs).

3) Setting up unofficial RP player mods from the old players, these could then help to solve differences in RP's, especially the IC ones.

4) Helping new people rather than shooting from the hip with soft ignores, trying to foster a better environment for the younger players.

5) We recommend all Earth's disband (unless these are specifically different RPs, like Earth BC that kind of thing but Earth 0-8 has to go), this will serve to stop the 'but you don't own X on Y Earth' style of RP as well as allowing anyone to play with anyone rather than [Earth V] or [Earth II] only.

6) We also suggust people stop [Closing] RP's, rather putting the signs in the top lines that they are open but only to those who TG (or whatever) with ideas and can perhaps provide evidence of their RPing skills. Which we feel is fair enough, we aim to give people the references with our example RP's.

Sorry for any mistakes, I am too tired to check this currently.
1) The ANP is (I think) considered one of the big alliances, I'll get in touch with the other admins and find out, I'd be willing to have it disbanded, but I'll need to talk to Hogsweat.

2) I personally accept any tech thats RPed properly, I just don't RP with anyone who is more advanced or less advanced because of the advantage it gives to the other person.

3) I'd definitely be willing to take on such a role if it was required, I have lots of time to waste, and I'd be glad to do a service to II.

4) I personally don't ignore people unless what they did was reeaally ridiculous.

5) I agree, and I personally ignore all Earths except the ones which have had some effort put into them (my Earth Medieval Britain for example;)).

6) I think people have every right to do a closed RP if they so desire. I've had RPs which I'd rather stay closed, because its just a practice RP for myself, and I don't want a RP with fifty different people in.

Prae, I don't think Earths that have had a lot of effort put into them have to go, only the Earths 1-8 or whatever number they're up to.

I find another problem is players don’t move on from things that happened in the past they keep flaming people who have grown out of it. because they never want to let go that hampers rp as well and that doesn’t give chances.
I fully agree with this point by TFU. I've had to intervene *way* too many times in Hataria's threads because people just won't leave him alone, or see him as an easy target. I recently had to ignore MassPwnage for posting "The Great Leader Li wanted to firebomb something in the worst way" as a reason for attacking Hataria. I dare anyone to look at his first threads, then look at his threads nowadays and tell me they haven't seen a difference. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people posting "You are a n00b, go away" whenever Hataria starts a thread. Get over it, he has improved. There are many worse RPers than him here these days.

For the [Closed] Tag thing, the reason we decided on this recommendation was as follows:

1) It stops some people reading the RP, thus perhaps stopping new players bothering reading perhaps very good RP work and wanting to imitate it.

2) It only make RP cliques, not wonderful for your new players eh?

3) Does it look good when you enter a board and there is a load of [Closed] signs across a lot of it.

I fully agree with this point by TFU. I've had to intervene *way* too many times in Hataria's threads because people just won't leave him alone, or see him as an easy target. I recently had to ignore MassPwnage for posting "The Great Leader Li wanted to firebomb something in the worst way" as a reason for attacking Hataria. I dare anyone to look at his first threads, then look at his threads nowadays and tell me they haven't seen a difference. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people posting "You are a n00b, go away" whenever Hataria starts a thread. Get over it, he has improved. There are many worse RPers than him here these days.

Amen! Also there's nothing I can add except: I agree.

For the [Closed] Tag thing, the reason we decided on this recommendation was as follows:
1) It stops some people reading the RP, thus perhaps stopping new players bothering reading perhaps very good RP work and wanting to imitate it.
2) It only make RP cliques, not wonderful for your new players eh?
3) Does it look good when you enter a board and there is a load of [Closed] signs across a lot of it.
And do you think having [Attn: RPer X, RPer Y and RPer Z] is any better? It just seems to suggest that only they're allowed to read it, its just like [closed] and maybe even worse.
Besides, there have never been that many RPs that I've noticed with [closed] across them, not enough to make it seem scary or intimidating.

What I hate is the constant oneupsmanship. How often must you upgrade your tank/airplane/etc? Too much attention is paid to tech rather than strategy and good writing. Actually, I was talking to some of the other guys in #nationstates about this last night, and they pointed out that it's pretty much inevitable. People are always going to try to prove that their tech is better, because it's the teenage boy mentality.

Can it be fixed?

Aye, but I think the problem stems from the fact that all the older RPers stayed in Nationstates. I tried to play in II when it came out (so that Character RPs stayed in NS, and war RPs moved here) but it didn't work out because all the new players came here.

Then the NSers moved away from war RPs, and left II. In other words, the people who knew how to RP, and layed down/broke (I was the one breaking a lot of them) the first rules of NS RP left.

So you have a bunch of new people, not enough veterans... and you get a RP disaster in progress. So then, the NSers look at II, make fun of it, and do nothing, because honnestly, few of them beleive that II is repairable.

Now, II has some jewels of good RP, but they're either moving away from NationStates, or are moving to the NS forum itself.

People are always going to try to prove that their tech is better, because it's the teenage boy mentality.

Can it be fixed?
That's a rather patronising view in my opinion. Real life nations are always trying to get one up techwise on their opponents. The problem with NS is that no one ever builds flaws into their tech, which is a shame, because nothing ever works perfectly in RL.

International Incidents in the one forum that I probably know the best, seeing as this is where I got my first start at NationStates. Now in the last few weeks, I've noticed a pretty swift change in the quality of RP'ing here. I'm not targetting any specific nation for this, because its a group effort here. All I see is II being made fun of, for being host to the newer people who feel it's necessary to declare war upon the entirety of NationStates. Now, of course, there isn't much we can do to prevent these things from happening, but there are a few things that we can do.

Basically, this thread is a discussion on exactly how we can improve the quality of RP'ing in II. Feel free to bring up any point for discussion.

I'm a UN regular player, but I'd like to say that I have the higest respect for this forum and do lurk here from time to time. I personally feel that players here tend to have the most to offer the regulars in other forums, and I've been trying to get personally more involved (as a supporting cast member) in a few RPs here.

I wouldn't say that things have gotten worse here in my year in NationStates. In fact, I've found that many veteran II players tend to be the most helpful in teaching RPing to others.

As for my advice on how to improve RPing ... I'd suggest that more experience players just remember that newbies probably will continue to appreciate polite pointers / tips.

That's a rather patronising view in my opinion. Real life nations are always trying to get one up techwise on their opponents. The problem with NS is that no one ever builds flaws into their tech, which is a shame, because nothing ever works perfectly in RL.

I think that a problem with that is not only with the creators of such technology, but the fact that not too many people have actual knowledge of anything military-related in all of NS. Perhaps we need some sort of education on exactly what each ship in your navy does, why you need it, and other facts about it that are easy to understand. The same goes for the air force, army, anything else that could be a bit complicated for others to understand.

If people were educated on military-related things, they'd be able to offer constructive criticism to those who constantly create new technology.

OOC:

I'd like to think that the threads I've been a part of are of a decent rp quality. That is, I only involve myself in threads that affect Vrak directly - or with nations that could have an impact on my foreign policy or ones I just like to keep an eye on. So when I see threads that say "I'm killing all my midgets" or something, I just shrug and move on. A lot of crap I just tune out.

I agree that both II and NS are in a valley right now, but like all things, it will pick up. I don't think that a few veteran nations need to take it upon themselves to "improve the quality" of the boards, but rather if someone wants to write a story then just write it and to heck with what everyone else is doing.

I also like the idea of mentoring a new nation, but aside the fact if I feel qualified for doing that, it requires quite a bit of time which I don't have. Besides, I would rather concentrate (for now at least) on nations that are within my own regions and develop stories there. I realize that sounds a bit selfish but that's how I prioritize things. Having said that, I believe that members in the FKC are pretty open when it comes to newcomers joining our threads.

edit: I've also noticed that, for me at least, if I have too many threads on the go then my writing suffers. As well, I only concentrate on my main nation (Vrak) and not my one puppet (The Pakleds) or another nation I have access to (SOE). I don't know how some of you monkeys have a million puppets.

I know I'm not considered one of the top RPers in II, but I would still like to state my opinion on the matter.
I also agree about the copying of common ideas, but I think a bigger problem is just a really low standard of RPing.
I think one of the best threads I saw in II, don't remember who it was started by, but it was "Twinnage", a thread where an experienced RPer twins himself with a new nation, helps them, shows them the ropes etc...
I think if an idea like that could be brought back, it could be really good for II.

I believe Falconia did this twinning thing, but it appears to be inactive (Linky (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=374577))

Someone (Hogsweat I think) made a Roleplay school, but no one's posted on the forum in ages (Linky (http://s6.invisionfree.com/RoleplaySchool/index.php?))

IMO, we just need to get a decent number of people willing to let smaller groups into RPs. Too often there are good RPs that are closed to everyone but someone on Earth X or Alliances X and Y.

Also, have you ever noticed that a medium sized RP can spool two pages in a day? I remember that the sheer volume of players in RPs and the speed at which they went was quite intimidating. Maybe we should try to get some small, low intensity RPs going to get newer players acclimated before they jump into the deep end.

I believe Falconia did this twinning thing, but it appears to be inactive (Linky (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=374577))

Someone (Hogsweat I think) made a Roleplay school, but no one's posted on the forum in ages (Linky (http://s6.invisionfree.com/RoleplaySchool/index.php?))
Ah thanks, I'd lost that. I don't believe it, I lost the link to *my own* RP school ;)
No but really, RPschool was started as my idea, Hogsweat helped me by starting up the forums. I will get it revived, the moment I can get real teachers who actually teach instead of signing up and forgetting all about it.

Falconia, that was it! I'd be more than willing to start a new one if there's interest.

I find another problem is players don’t move on from things that happened in the past they keep flaming people who have grown out of it. because they never want to let go that hampers rp as well and that doesn’t give chances.The problem is how do we know that someone's outgrown their tendencies that got them in trouble in the first place? It's that whole once a Godmoder, always a Godmoder thing.

Plus, I for one am not a very forgiving person.

OOC:
So when I see threads that say "I'm killing all my midgets" or something, I just shrug and move on. A lot of crap I just tune out.


ROTFL!

The irony is the UN tends to get threads like "Protect all midgets". So to all things there is a balance. ;) I'm jut not sure if this is a blessing or a curse.

I would think something that would help is if more of us had NSWiki links to our country. For example, I'm a big unknown around here ... so when I pop in for a sec or two, folks don't always know what to think or more importantly what my style of play is.

Perhaps the issue isn't for verteran players to carry on, but for others (like me) to make it easier for others by working to point to more about our nations. My region is currently trying to get its first map made and several of the nations in my region are doing a great job with NSWiki.

What I hate is the constant oneupsmanship. How often must you upgrade your tank/airplane/etc? Too much attention is paid to tech rather than strategy and good writing. Actually, I was talking to some of the other guys in #nationstates about this last night, and they pointed out that it's pretty much inevitable. People are always going to try to prove that their tech is better, because it's the teenage boy mentality.

Can it be fixed?There's a problem though with the whole issue of fluid time. IRL, people work constantly on improving their technology; otherwise, we might still be riding in oar-powered galleys and we wouldn't even be having this online conversation at all. One reason I'm working on improving stuff is the whole issue of deciding that older stuff is obsolete and updating it with newer stuff. That's why I put out the Independence, since I'm RPing that the Freedom is obsolete in my navy's eyes (well, Prae started that first). That's what happens IRL.

I'd like to think that the threads I've been a part of are of a decent rp quality. That is, I only involve myself in threads that affect Vrak directly - or with nations that could have an impact on my foreign policy or ones I just like to keep an eye on. So when I see threads that say "I'm killing all my midgets" or something, I just shrug and move on. A lot of crap I just tune out.
I do that too. The problem is there isnt much left anymore...

I do that too. The problem is there isnt much left anymore...

OOC: I guess there is a purpose for all those "wedding", "coronation", and "diplomatic summit" threads in that the odd chance that you will meet someone icly. I suppose joining a couple alliances help but I am wary of those who are part of 101 alliances and feel the need to list them in their signatures.

Still, my main point is that I don't think it's up to anyone to "fix" anything. Just ignore the stuff you don't like and cultivate relations with those you think are half-decent. And if someone gives you the brush off then move on. There are plenty of roleplayers out there. I dunno. I try to be open with lots of different folk and I don't always agree with the clique nature of NS, especially the stuff I see on IRC.

Personally I like of the idea of some of the older nations mentoring the new players, experience is the best way do something. I would like to consider myself a decent RRer, but that was note something that happened over night. It wasn’t until I started Rping with someone who was much better then I did my RP skills improve.

Another point, is some people have very specific RP styles, therefore sometime find certain RP’s hard to do then other. Personally I prefer a extremely plot based character based RP, but when have trouble in taking part in other RP where fleets engagement tactics and all the other fun stuff occur. For me Tech is nothing more then simply a plot device and actually has to real importance, but just the way that I like to RP.

Lastly it has been my experience that when the posts in an RP come quick and fast, the writing in it is not as good as a long drawn out RP that has a lot of thought put into. Again this is not always the case.

Well, I was a newbie not too long ago...

One of the problems that I ran into frequently was a lack of feedback on my threads. It's hard for a newbie to learn to RP when nobody offers him feedback on his threads. As a relatively new nation (200 million or so), I decided to take my nation in a unique direction and focus nearly all my research and development on geology--so I could reclaim land from the sea on a scale á la RL Japan (eventually--my first tests were more on the scale of creating another Hawaiian island chain, if that).

My first volcanology tests drew exactly one international observer. This is quite discouraging to a newbie, especially one who thinks he has a fresh idea.

I remember one of my later threads on the subject (I think the one where I announced that I was planning on reclaiming about 100,000 square miles through this research) did draw at least a little bit of attention, but only because I bumped it with minor "updates" frequently.

And when I militarized this technology to create earthquake-inducing ICBMs, I got exactly four replies, two of which were my bumps.

In hindsight, I noticed that the mentioned threads drew lots of views but few replies, something I had neglected to consider as a newbie.

At the time, I had a "screw it, I'll RP on a regional message board" attitude, because I thought no one cared about my RPs. As a result, major portions of my national history, including having my capital city nuked twice, will never be known to II (especially considering because I never put the stuff on notepad or anything like that).

If you want better quality roleplaying, don't ignore the newbies who really do want to make II a better, more creative place. This I say out of my personal experience.

And I still have no idea if the II thinks I'm a good RPer or a crappy one because nobody has really voiced an opinion on the subject ;)

OOC: I agree wholeheartedly with EWT. I used to be a newbie (might still be ;) ) and I used to reply the hardest I possibly could, but didn't get replies. People just ignored most of my stuff.

There are new players out there that have some nice, good and sometimes amazing quality stuff, but mostly we see the crazy things, like the poorly played out terrorisms on the UN and the world, and the copying.

A smattering of thoughts...

The [closed] tags started because people got sick of idiots barging into their threads and posting stupid nonsense, executing terrorist attacks, blowing up the moon, and that sort of thing. Then you have to deal with their IC, OOC, or both. Or get a mod to clear the shit out. Nobody wants to deal with that, so they slap [closed] and are done with it. Of course, some of the best things I've read have been closed threads.

People getting their threads ignored sucks, but there's not much you can do about it. Even well established players (at least in NS) can have threads utterly ignored. I remember when Lavenrunz tried to restart SATO. Got a couple positive replies, and a how shitload of IC and OOC grief from a particular group of wankers. Needless to say, plans ended up being scrapped. Take a look at the number of threads in the role-play forums. It's pretty easy for your post to be buried, especially in II.

And that's part of the problem with II, I think. I've seen threads in NS that have a post a week, if that. There's some truly massive threads there, well thought out and detailed. I've seen them where short posts are 1000 words. Conversely, a lot of threads in II are rapid fire affairs where a post is, maybe, 20-50 words.

I'm not saying more words is better, mind you. What I am saying is that when posts are flying out with mere minutes between them, you're going to have some decay in the quality. Perhaps II would be better served if people took their time and let threads develop slowly; if they took their time with their posts. I've tried to follow a couple II threads, but it gets frustrating when I go to bed on page 4 and wake up on page 15. Again, not every II thread is like this, but I observe it quite a bit.

Someone here mentioned party threads. I've seen those used by players to great effect. At Nathicana's Carnivale, a new player hopped in and started playing. This player hadn't been involved on NS before, and indeed was a brand new player. This player had no ties with anybody. Their writing was very good, and now they're involved with more than a couple movers and shakers over in NS. I'm talking about The Resurgent Dream, of course. A single social thread and they went from being a nobody to being involved with Nathicana, Pantocratoria, Scolopendra, and Melkor Unchained. Not too bad, hmm?

Oh, and I agree... those multiple Earths are just silly.

That's a rather patronising view in my opinion. Real life nations are always trying to get one up techwise on their opponents. The problem with NS is that no one ever builds flaws into their tech, which is a shame, because nothing ever works perfectly in RL.
There's a problem though with the whole issue of fluid time. IRL, people work constantly on improving their technology; otherwise, we might still be riding in oar-powered galleys and we wouldn't even be having this online conversation at all. One reason I'm working on improving stuff is the whole issue of deciding that older stuff is obsolete and updating it with newer stuff. That's why I put out the Independence, since I'm RPing that the Freedom is obsolete in my navy's eyes (well, Prae started that first). That's what happens IRL.

I guess I didn't say what I meant correctly. Some people who constantly update their military automatically assume that they will win a war. The whole RP goes down the drain because they are too focused on having the best equipment rather than telling the story.

I can see how [closed] or [attn: 'whoever'] can discourage people from reading, but if the thread has less than three pages, I'll read at least five posts. Just to see if I want to ask to join. Or tag and enjoy the read.

But both forums have problems. While NS has the uber-characters, the cardboard fleets, the warping across the galaxy in an instant stuff, I.I. has genocide(of which I am guilty of... but get off me, it was a plot point I planned four months ago. I honestly didn't know that there was a crapload of genocide threads in II...), wars against the world, oversized militaries and so on.

Neither is all that great. So I found the peolle I know can RP and I have storylines with them, while still scouting the rest of the forums for anyone new. (I found one player who has promise, obviously innate skills at writing and eagerness to RP well. I contacted him IC and OOC and agreed to help him with his RPs, but unfortunatly he has a broken hand and has taken a break.)

Personally I like of the idea of some of the older nations mentoring the new players, experience is the best way do something.


It is for this reason that I established a site today. It is a forum for people to hone their RP skills out of the spotlight of the main NS forums. Come check me out at the RP Critics (http://rpcritics.proboards46.com/index.cgi)

Well, I'll make my self look like an idiot if I say something so I'll just say this:

I'm here to help in anyway possible.

OOC: I guess there is a purpose for all those "wedding", "coronation", and "diplomatic summit" threads in that the odd chance that you will meet someone icly. I suppose joining a couple alliances help but I am wary of those who are part of 101 alliances and feel the need to list them in their signatures.
If you actually read my signature, you'd see I'm in 2 alliances, of which 1 is defunct. But whey! for thinly-vieled insults anyway!

Still, my main point is that I don't think it's up to anyone to "fix" anything. Just ignore the stuff you don't like and cultivate relations with those you think are half-decent. And if someone gives you the brush off then move on. There are plenty of roleplayers out there. I dunno. I try to be open with lots of different folk and I don't always agree with the clique nature of NS, especially the stuff I see on IRC.
What I said in my post, and still believe, is that when you filter out the rubbish there isn't a whole lot left in II these days and it wasn't always like that. If you really want lots of pointless condemnation-grabbing fad-evil threads and n00bs that do something stupid and get invaded right off the bat by more experienced, very bored players then you go and have fun. I don't see that ever changing despite the best intensions of a lot of II now.

That's a rather patronising view in my opinion. Real life nations are always trying to get one up techwise on their opponents. The problem with NS is that no one ever builds flaws into their tech, which is a shame, because nothing ever works perfectly in RL.

*HACKCOUGH* Pardon me? Or do you just not read my threads?

The question of flaws becomes, unfortunately, one of exploitation. If I build an excellent tank with a flaw, and allow that flaw to be exploited, then suddenly everyone is exploiting - which makes things very one sided.

In order for the "flawishness" to work, RPers have to work to both have flaws, and both exploit them. I have had a war in which I gave my pilots Flaw:Inexperienced. As a result, tactical errors were made - but my opponent had perfect planes that shot off missiles from who knows where, "teleporting" out of range when missiles were shot - and incredibly being at short range for the counterfire.

This made it ridiculous.

Aye, but I think the problem stems from the fact that all the older RPers stayed in Nationstates. I tried to play in II when it came out (so that Character RPs stayed in NS, and war RPs moved here) but it didn't work out because all the new players came here.

Then the NSers moved away from war RPs, and left II. In other words, the people who knew how to RP, and layed down/broke (I was the one breaking a lot of them) the first rules of NS RP left.

So you have a bunch of new people, not enough veterans... and you get a RP disaster in progress. So then, the NSers look at II, make fun of it, and do nothing, because honnestly, few of them beleive that II is repairable.

Now, II has some jewels of good RP, but they're either moving away from NationStates, or are moving to the NS forum itself.

... or being ignored. Here is my example. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=406324) A rather good thread, I think - delicate, working, functional, good RP going on, flow of story, good descriptions... and I can't even get my own allies to toss in their two cents when a bunch of idiots blows up a chunk of my airport, by making a statement against terrorism!

[/rant]

Well, I was a newbie not too long ago...

One of the problems that I ran into frequently was a lack of feedback on my threads. It's hard for a newbie to learn to RP when nobody offers him feedback on his threads. As a relatively new nation (200 million or so), I decided to take my nation in a unique direction and focus nearly all my research and development on geology--so I could reclaim land from the sea on a scale á la RL Japan (eventually--my first tests were more on the scale of creating another Hawaiian island chain, if that).

My first volcanology tests drew exactly one international observer. This is quite discouraging to a newbie, especially one who thinks he has a fresh idea.

I remember one of my later threads on the subject (I think the one where I announced that I was planning on reclaiming about 100,000 square miles through this research) did draw at least a little bit of attention, but only because I bumped it with minor "updates" frequently.

And when I militarized this technology to create earthquake-inducing ICBMs, I got exactly four replies, two of which were my bumps.

In hindsight, I noticed that the mentioned threads drew lots of views but few replies, something I had neglected to consider as a newbie.

At the time, I had a "screw it, I'll RP on a regional message board" attitude, because I thought no one cared about my RPs. As a result, major portions of my national history, including having my capital city nuked twice, will never be known to II (especially considering because I never put the stuff on notepad or anything like that).

If you want better quality roleplaying, don't ignore the newbies who really do want to make II a better, more creative place. This I say out of my personal experience.

And I still have no idea if the II thinks I'm a good RPer or a crappy one because nobody has really voiced an opinion on the subject ;)


You know, a thread marked [Open, Critique Wanted] might be a good idea. With an IC and OOC thread.

Edit: And you stopped posting in the squirrels thread when it was entering the rabidly amusing because it's bleeding onto other threads phase.

Which brings me to another point - you CAN connect threads and goings on in any nation, which brings a feeling of "international community and happenings" to a thread, and the "story entire" a nation is writing by it's existance.

You don't have to, but you can.

I guess I didn't say what I meant correctly. Some people who constantly update their military automatically assume that they will win a war. The whole RP goes down the drain because they are too focused on having the best equipment rather than telling the story.

Part of this can be solved by teaching that it's not the "winning on the field" that matters, it's the "entertaining the masses".

... or being ignored. Here is my example. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=406324) A rather good thread, I think - delicate, working, functional, good RP going on, flow of story, good descriptions... and I can't even get my own allies to toss in their two cents when a bunch of idiots blows up a chunk of my airport, by making a statement against terrorism!

[/rant]And that's exactly what I encouter when I happen to post something in NS. I post an idea, something original and this is what you get: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=411372 1 reply.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=387014 zero replies.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409731 zero replies.

Nothing. And that's the arrogance of NS. They only care about their own stuff and it's pretty hard to jump in storylines developing from whatever date 2003. If anyone says the NS forum is an open community then that's a bold face lie. Can't say about Vastiva thread that's is bad roleplay, but hey! That the NationStates forum: players from II aren't welcome unless you declare war on someone.

And that's exactly what I encouter when I happen to post something in NS. I post an idea, something original and this is what you get: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=411372 1 reply.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=387014 zero replies.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409731 zero replies.

Nothing. And that's the arrogance of NS. They only care about their own stuff and it's pretty hard to jump in storylines developing from whatever date 2003. If anyone says the NS forum is an open community then that's a bold face lie. Can't say about Vastiva thread that's is bad roleplay, but hey! That the NationStates forum: players from II aren't welcome unless you declare war on someone.

Guff, seriously. In multiple incarnations you've made it rather difficult for anyone to play with you - my introduction to you was in that whole "Holy Panooly/Sirens of Titan" shebang, in which you played enough wanker puppet games to make me very sick of even trying to play with you as you were so focused on winning, you couldn't see the "behind the scenes" shenanigans was screwing your long term reputation into the floor. All the hell and bull has made it so.

As to NS - I joined threads, asked to join threads in TG, and made my own name. Screwed up a few, but hey, it's not about winning, its about storytelling. That's the lesson still to be learned here.

You know, a thread marked [Open, Critique Wanted]
Edit: And you stopped posting in the squirrels thread when it was entering the rabidly amusing because it's bleeding onto other threads phase.

Do you want me to ressurect it? :D

Which brings me to another point - you CAN connect threads and goings on in any nation, which brings a feeling of "international community and happenings" to a thread, and the "story entire" a nation is writing by it's existance.

You don't have to, but you can.

I think I've done this quite well with my (main nation's) transition to FT...the RPs involved are all tied together and have attracted plenty of attention from FT nations. It just took a thousand or so posts for me to figure out how to do it. :)

(...)Still, the threads I linked you to are made by the same author, irregardless of puppets. It's so simple, Sirens of Titan is a terrorist nation, if anybody wants me to RP a terrorist thing they ask me to use SoT. Case closed. I only post as HP when the forums are down and Guff is my nation nation. As SoT I tried to start some fantasy thing in NS - no replies. Months ago before I even got Guff I posted some stuff as HP - no replies. It doesn't matter what you do, people over there are very reluctant to RP with II nations no matter what happens. If you refuse to play with me, not my loss. But we're heading off-topic, the discussion was to improve RP quality. And at least the RP quality of my nations is a lot higher than 90% of the stuff written in II lately.

Note: puppet wanking is to gain advantage of your puppet's population to become a bigger military power, gain a higher GDP or something. And that's something I have never done. I've always kept my nations strictly seperate in RP's and especially wars, except in their history. But history ain't active RP, so that isn't an issue.

Nothing. And that's the arrogance of NS. They only care about their own stuff and it's pretty hard to jump in storylines developing from whatever date 2003.

Oh, sure. It's all us big-bad NS'ers. We're one big circle-jerk and we only respond to our own threads.

No, wait, that's not right. Everybody has threads (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=368622) that are ignored (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=411341). Blaming the NS Mafia is insane. Somehow, I doubt that Texan Hotrodders (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=382301) would agree that threads are ignored unless you're part of a clique.

Now, I can't say why threads get ignored, I wager there's several reasons: people are busy when the thread's introduced, people just aren't interested, the tech level is wrong, or maybe the poster has a history of being exceptionally acidic (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=349773) and nobody wants to bother with them.

I wager there's a variety of reasons why some threads are ignored and others aren't. However, bitching about it isn't a good way to generate interest.

Do you want me to ressurect it? :D

I think if you moved it from "Pure Joke" to "humor and serious" it would work better as an RP-basis. I took it as the latter, anyway...



I think I've done this quite well with my (main nation's) transition to FT...the RPs involved are all tied together and have attracted plenty of attention from FT nations. It just took a thousand or so posts for me to figure out how to do it. :)

Then you have your answer to your own question, don't you?

I have to agree with HP here, NS does seem to be a forum where unless you're well known and well respected, you get ignored. I tried to start a thread there, didn't get any replies. Whereas I started a terror RP here, it got about 6 or 7 tags.

Still, the threads I linked you to are made by the same author, irregardless of puppets. It's so simple, Sirens of Titan is a terrorist nation, if anybody wants me to RP a terrorist thing they ask me to use SoT. Case closed. I only post as HP when the forums are down and Guff is my nation nation. As SoT I tried to start some fantasy thing in NS - no replies. Months ago before I even got Guff I posted some stuff as HP - no replies. It doesn't matter what you do, people over there are very reluctant to RP with II nations no matter what happens. If you refuse to play with me, not my loss. But we're heading off-topic, the discussion was to improve RP quality. And at least the RP quality of my nations is a lot higher than 90% of the stuff written in II lately.

If people don't read it, what difference does that make? At base level, we're here to be read.

And you want a bit of "Truth and Consequences"? I thought Guffingford was well written, and had an inkling to start playing with - then it turned down the same road as HP (et al), and a positive tie was noted between, and my thought was "and the point of this would be?". What had started as promising, went the exact same way. FWIW, by the time the "Oh, it's HP" showed up, it was already "oh well, it almost looked fun".



Note: puppet wanking is to gain advantage of your puppet's population to become a bigger military power, gain a higher GDP or something. And that's something I have never done. I've always kept my nations strictly seperate in RP's and especially wars, except in their history. But history ain't active RP, so that isn't an issue.

To mention SoT and HP in that wonderful island blockade or not... hmmmm...

(...)I'm not saying it's the fault of NationStates forum II has became so crappy, I am saying that it is extremely difficult to gain a foothold in a close community such as NationStates. I know it's a matter of finding the right ingredients to make a sucessfull story, but NS is a lot different than II, it's a lot more serious. I don't know either why my stories end up with nothing and Texan Hotrodders writes a hit, but the fact remains NS is a lot less new-player friendly than II is. A proconception created by bias and jealousy? Or truth? To be honest, I think it's the latter.

Clearly.

I have to agree with HP here, NS does seem to be a forum where unless you're well known and well respected, you get ignored. I tried to start a thread there, didn't get any replies. Whereas I started a terror RP here, it got about 6 or 7 tags.

Next arguement, please? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=407478)

I'm not saying it's the fault of NationStates forum II has became so crappy, I am saying that it is extremely difficult to gain a foothold in a close community such as NationStates. I know it's a matter of finding the right ingredients to make a sucessfull story, but NS is a lot different than II, it's a lot more serious. I don't know either why my stories end up with nothing and Texan Hotrodders writes a hit, but the fact remains NS is a lot less new-player friendly than II is. A proconception created by bias and jealousy? Or truth? To be honest, I think it's the latter.

Clearly.

Its like fishing. Gotta use good bait, and keep trying. NS is depth, not "blow everything up and launch a tank assault".

I think if you moved it from "Pure Joke" to "humor and serious" it would work better as an RP-basis. I took it as the latter, anyway...

Is it the fact that it's 5 in the morning here, or did you take that thread seriously? It was meant to be a joke and a way to entertain my German instructor, who seems to have an obsession with squirrels (that's all he ever talks about). :D

Then you have your answer to your own question, don't you?

In some ways, yes. I still feel like had I not made a huge production of transitioning to FT, I would still be doing MT/post MT RPs that die the minute I submit the thread. I might just be a better FT writer, I guess, or maybe the circumstances under which I evolved to FT drew attention. *shrugs*

In other ways, no. For example, I still have no idea what my reputation as a roleplayer might be other than that I didn't n00k teh UN yesterday. And I'm somewhat afraid to ask because 1)it would make me look like a n00b all over again and 2)there was a giant fad to this effect a month or so ago. I guess I should have rode the fad while I had the chance.

To mention SoT and HP in that wonderful island blockade or not... hmmmm...As far as I know, there has never been a joint blockade of an island done by both HP and SoT.

Wait... II players are discriminated against? *looks at AMF* Hmmm.... okay, so maybe he's an exception. Still.

What are specific differences in II and NS?

II has Factbooks and Storefronts in the Yin and out the Yang.

NS has Space fleets in the Yin and out the Yang.

II RP is all war. All genocide. And full of Alternate Earths.

NS RP is mostly peacefull RPs. Clean wars. And with a galaxy of nations.

II is 90% modern.

NS is 90% future.

II RPs tend to be shallow storylines.

NS RPs tend to be deep to overly complicated and really confusing storylines.

II has a large number of new players.

NS has a large number of veteran players.

If you play II as most play II, you will not have an easy time in NS. The same isn't said of NS, for a simple reason. It's easier for people that RP elaborately to RP simply than people who RP simply to RP elaborately.

And how did II become this way? The last influx of n00bs and newbies. They all came to II and RPed mediocrely. The veterans got tired of it and shifted to NS, which until that influx was the n00b infested place.

NS is a lot different than II, it's a lot more serious.

And that's a bad thing? Personally, I want people to take my threads seriously. If I want pointless fluff, I'll go to the spam forum.

I don't know either why my stories end up with nothing and Texan Hotrodders writes a hit, but the fact remains NS is a lot less new-player friendly than II is.

Tell that to Dread Lady Nathicana or The Resurgent Dream. Both of them were nobodies who were fantastic writers and have become quite popular. People pay attention to what they write. It's a dash of luck and quite a bit of writing ability. Neither one of them were major people when they started, so I find it very difficult to make the charge of NS not being new-player friendly stick.

A proconception created by bias and jealousy? Or truth? To be honest, I think it's the latter.

Setting aside the rather obvious bit that if it's the former you wouldn't be able to see it anyway...

This is not the kind of attitude that gets people to pay attention to you. This is the attitude that makes people cross the road to avoid you. If I had the option of RP'ing with, say, Scolopendra or you, which would I chose? The player whom I've never actually had any IC interaction with but who's writing I respect, or the person with whom I've never had any IC interaction with but frequently makes snide comments and blames me and the people I play with for his inability to have a popular thread.

Hard choice indeed.

Yey! Let's all insult II!

(...)Here's a good idea: create a puppet nation, RP with it in II, make yourself known and then hop over to NS. Chances are really big nobody cares about you. No matter how much you write, no matter how much effort you put into it. In II it's the same story, but when you are in need of attention you either declare war on a small new nation or you start genocide. Nine out of ten times it works, but II is kind of flooded with genodical madman so the regular genocide has became boring and cliche.

The general opinion about the NS forum may be flawed, but it does contain some truth. Instead of roleplaying with the same persons over and over, why not try to find some new talent?

I must say, that I myself have migrated into the NS forum with my new Future tech nation Bob-Bob. My thread has received little in the way of interest, so what did I do…. I dragged decent players from II into NS, its liberating to post a thread and not have a gazillion tags, OOC comments, flames, flame bating, insults, spam, break up a four Word page post, that took you an hour to write. My story is progressing well, and while having little in the way of interest, my thread has received plenty of views, which tells me NS is out there, they’re just waiting to see what you can do.

The Nationstates forum is not the same as International Incidents, primarily as threads that are created will take weeks until their completion, a heavy time investment indeed, one which no player takes lightly, therefore it is best to arrange it with someone first, send a tg to a player, or add them on MSN, either way a lot of people don’t just join when you write one post. (Unlike I.I where I kill Jooo will get a few pages of flame fest immediate go to war replies.)

Perhaps to state the obvious perhaps it would be better if we got out of the II vs NS arguement mentality.

I agree with Crimmond (wow), to the point that II is very different from NS it's sort of a breeding ground if you will. There are quite a few major players on II who are really quite good RPers, however don't like the NS forum (sometimes for it's rather snobby attitudes (a significant minority would be the best way to put it) but on the whole it is because that is not the style to which they want to RP.

In short what I am saying is that II has it's fair share of good players, this may be far less than the NS board (which granted has it's newbies and n00bs). However, what we have got to do rather than argueing and mud cake throwing is just get on with setting a good example to the younger RPers, it might take a while but it ultimately might acheive good results for both boards.

I would also like to say it would be nice if some of the NS board who don't have an ego the size of China and Africa combined (or seemingly bigger in some cases) could perhaps come back and help out for a while.

TMG being a diplomat, I thought i'd never see the day... :p

Somebody mentioned earlier about not getting critique on their works. Since the majority of people who have posted in this thread are well known and experienced RPers, can I have some opinions on the way I RP?

Here are some of the threads I have taken part in:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=381581 - My first ever RP. Now ended.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409481 - FT semi-intro RP. Also ended
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413444 - My latest RP. Only just started.

To anyone who takes the time to read these: Thank you for your time.

Yey! Let's all insult II!Better than actually reading the thread, huh?

Here's a good idea: create a puppet nation, RP with it in II, make yourself known and then hop over to NS.

Well, gee... if I wasn't involved in around 10 threads with my main nation and two threads with my puppet, as well as Modding the game, working in the real world, and trying to sleep and have a personal life, I might dedicate several months of my life just to act out your thought experiment.

Chances are really big nobody cares about you.

Changing the goal, now. Originally you were complaining because mean ole' NS was ignoring you. Now only "big" people matter. How do you define "big", anyway? Are we talking Yut? Arda? The NDA? VERITAS? Menelmacar? Nathicana? Scolopendra? Berserker? The Territory? Der Angst? C'tan? Austar Union? GMC?

Allanea?

In II it's the same story, but when you are in need of attention you either declare war on a small new nation or you start genocide.

Excuse me, I need to laugh.

Okay, I'm better now. Do you realise how insulting your "defence" of II is getting? Earlier you implied that II didn't take things seriously. Now, you're saying II is full of people who run around declairing WHAR! on anyone who twitches, or randomly slaughtering scores of people.

Gee, no wonder so many NS players have such a dim view of II. Even II regulars feel that II is overrun with idiots and wankers. And you wonder why we're less than enthused to interact with II forumers.

The general opinion about the NS forum may be flawed, but it does contain some truth. Instead of roleplaying with the same persons over and over, why not try to find some new talent?

For some reason this keeps reading as: "Why won't you play with meeeeeeeeeeeee? You worthless bastards, why do you ignore me?!"

Bitter much?


I would also like to say it would be nice if some of the NS board who don't have an ego the size of China and Africa combined (or seemingly bigger in some cases) could perhaps come back and help out for a while.

You been reading Panooly's posts? No, seriously, have you? Is that the kind of attitude that's likely to inspire 'help out'?

However, I have tried to get involved in a few II threads. I think the most recent was the conferency in Feminary (a new nation, for what it's worth). Unfortunately, it quickly went downhill because of idiot posters, including a trio who went there because they felt a matriarchical society meant that they just needed a good rapin'. Nevermind the fact that the fool thing moved way too fast for me to keep up with.

Oddly enough, it did solidify some relations between my nation and a couple others. Monetistan and Iuthia. Both of whom (now) play primarily in NS. Draw your own conclusions.

Before anyone asks why I don't try harder, let me cut you off at the pass. When I started RPing here, II didn't exist. All RP was in NS. When II was created, I looked around a little, but it was largely a place for storefronts to go. Since all of my threads were currently in NS, I saw no reason to move over. Truth be told, I've never seen much reason to do so. For awhile it was because every time I looked, all I saw was Russian Forces or Imperial Forces stomping around all over the place invading for no reason.

Needless to say, that didn't much interest me.

Eventually, the two forums were two different worlds. Nations tended to exclusively exist in one forum or the other, so moving to II would be like starting all over again. If I mention "Elisa Day" or "Josef Specter" to players in NS, they know who I'm talking about, and have an idea of their history. If I mention "North Hack News", they'll know I'm not talking about a serious news agency. All of this history doesn't exist in II. II regulars will have no idea what I'm talking about, and I certainly wouldn't expect them to read up on my history (largely because the three threads (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=374068) it's mostly contained (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=398728) in are freaking huge (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=315645)).

I've put a lot of time into my nation, and I don't really want to start all over again from scratch. Conversely, II players have their own histories, characters and the like. For instance, I know that Demon Lord Enigma has put a lot of work into his nation. Do I know an ounce of it? Nope. Do I have the time to read all his threads to learn it? Nope.

NS players have an idea of what other NS players have. Same for II. The really harsh thing about it is that it's a rather nasty cycle. As the forums grow further apart, there's less cross-over. As there's less cross-over, they forums grow further apart. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Then again, I'm not really that convinced that the separation is a problem. NS sits in its corner and mocks II. II sits in its corner and spits at NS. It's an uneasy truce, but things tend to keep quiet. Personally, I'd say that if you're really on fire to improve the quality of II, guilting NS players into coming over isn't the way to do it (all that really does is reinforce stereotypes).

If some knucklehead posts a stupid thread, don't post in it. Don't post pictures of huge "ignore cannons", don't storm in all RAWR and threaten to glass them, just... don't post. They'll get frustrated and leave, or they'll improve. Either way you win. If you think they really have potential, telegram them and set up a closed (zounds!) role-play. That keeps [i]other idiots out, and hopefully gives them a chance to improve.

...

Christ... I'm a wordy bastard at this hour...

Here's a good idea: create a puppet nation, RP with it in II, make yourself known and then hop over to NS. Chances are really big nobody cares about you. No matter how much you write, no matter how much effort you put into it.

And why is that? The answer in your next sentences...

In II it's the same story, but when you are in need of attention you either declare war on a small new nation or you start genocide. Nine out of ten times it works, but II is kind of flooded with genodical madman so the regular genocide has became boring and cliche.

If you try to do that in NS, yo will eitehr get stomped immediatly or told to shut up by some leader with a military bigger than your population.

The general opinion about the NS forum may be flawed, but it does contain some truth. Instead of roleplaying with the same persons over and over, why not try to find some new talent?

Done that. I've gone out of my way on several occasions to RP with new people that show talent, show ability and show an eagerness to RP well, even if the skill level is a bit low. I would be RPing with one of those nations now, had the player not suffered a broken hand. Nations I've RPed with outside my sphere have been among the best in my opinion.

And Hack's last post got me thinking. I know... not nessecarily a good thing.

When I came to NS, there was no International Incidents or Gameplay. ALl teh Gameplay threads clogged among RP threads and Stores and a few factbooks(not many, as that fad wasn't even to infancy state). When II started, I moved immediatly to it to get away from the Gameplay and OOCness of NS. And as the Bible states "And for a time, it was good."

Then... then came the second Great N00b Flood. The Underwater Bubble Incident. The collapse of the GDODAD. The Ubercaust. Many things made II seem a haven of poor RPs and the mass exodus slowed, then stopped, then reversed. And we all ended up in NS again, dealing with the Gameplay threads until Gameplay was made and the newbies finally had a place to put their Region advertisment threads. A place where they could be ignored by the RPers.

II has never really changed. Sure, teh n00bs that influxed have changed, for the most part. They've become good RPers. But RP in II has not changed overall. It's still of shallower storylines, shorter lines, much less serious in tone and will allways be seen as the lesser of the two forums by NSers.

But... don't worry. Even if you are considered by NSers to be second best, we can all agree that General is dead last. ;)

Wow TMGH I honestly thought you were different than the mainstream NS player, guess you aren't. But anyway. I better watch my mouth now because I'm treading on very thin ice when arguing with a moderator.

Well, gee... if I wasn't involved in around 10 threads with my main nation and two threads with my puppet, as well as Modding the game, working in the real world, and trying to sleep and have a personal life, I might dedicate several months of my life just to act out your thought experiment.So, you are active in 10 threads. Congratulations, amazing achievement, never happened to me. Instead of complaining you're so busy why do you join them all in the first place. Especially when you're a mod and want to have a life outside NS.

Changing the goal, now. Originally you were complaining because mean ole' NS was ignoring you. Now only "big" people matter. How do you define "big", anyway? Are we talking Yut? Arda? The NDA? VERITAS? Menelmacar? Nathicana? Scolopendra? Berserker? The Territory? Der Angst? C'tan? Austar Union? GMC?

Allanea?I never said big people matter, I say that the NS forum community as a whole is too closed for new players to get a chance. If I wanted to RP there, I wouldn't be discussing this with you. I realised (didn't took me very long after writing some threads over there) that NS isn't the place for me BECAUSE it is virtually impossible to become known over there. You can take virtually with a big grain of salt, because I've only seen 1 person to move from II to NS with success: Austar Union, who happens to be helping II out quite a bit behind the scenes to improve RP around here. Something a Der Angst or a Nathicana or a Berserker isn't doing, or if you call poking your head around corner and dropping some OOC replies helpful you'd probably be right.

Do you realise how insulting your "defence" of II is getting? Earlier you implied that II didn't take things seriously. Now, you're saying II is full of people who run around declairing WHAR! on anyone who twitches, or randomly slaughtering scores of people.

Gee, no wonder so many NS players have such a dim view of II. Even II regulars feel that II is overrun with idiots and wankers. And you wonder why we're less than enthused to interact with II forumers.It might be good for you to step off your high horse and look at the good writing II has to offer for a change. It's not much I admit but it's there. It's true that II takes things less seriously than NS, but saying that nothing is taken seriously in II goes a bit too far. Every now and then the NS vs II discussion comes up and it always ends like a person like me arguing with a person like Hack. And guess? It always ends with: I play here and you do your thing there, and we call it a day. But to come to the point, it's correct what you said. II is indeed not much more than a bucket with good players surrounded by n00bs. And because of the NS attitude, the good players in II will hardly get a chance of showing off their work in NS. It works from two sides: if a n00b comes to NS is ignored you don't hear me complaining. But if a good player comes to NS and is willing to follow their rules, become one of them and is ignored because he's II it proves this NS and II rivalry, or however you want to call it.

Eventually, the two (...) chance to improve.I agree on this.

Somebody mentioned earlier about not getting critique on their works. Since the majority of people who have posted in this thread are well known and experienced RPers, can I have some opinions on the way I RP?

Here are some of the threads I have taken part in:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=381581 - My first ever RP. Now ended.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409481 - FT semi-intro RP. Also ended
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413444 - My latest RP. Only just started.

To anyone who takes the time to read these: Thank you for your time.

Free Eagles, I've read parts of your last and first one, and they seem very nice in quality, and sorry for my honesty, but it was very long and my mind began to rot before I could get any farther. It's really good. Then again, what do I know? ;)

Now in the last few weeks, I've noticed a pretty swift change in the quality of RP'ing here. I'm not targetting any specific nation for this, because its a group effort here.Odd. I would consider the average to have increased, rather than decreased.

In order for International Incidents to gain back the respect it deserves, we need to RP to impress.As you said in the follow-up sentences, that isn't the purpose. And indeed, it can only fail.

'Sides, the disdain some players have for II isn't entirely based on facts. It's simply a tradition. Wont get rid of that.

The idea that younger generations ought to respect their elders, which is something I personally subscribe to, carries with it some obligations for the elders.Age != sanity. Personally, I'm horrified at the idea of certain Dec '02 nations 'teaching' newer players. Especially those who are superior to rude oldbies in more or less all regards (Quite a few names come to mind...) If anything, it is quality, and quality isn't age-based.

It is, however, highly subjective, and as such, pointless.

*Struggles not to throw out names*

1) The old alliances be broken up (which newbie can stop even the depleted NATO members, the RWC, the IADF etc). The RWC is prepared to lead the way by disbanding itself in order to get II back on track.And throw things like IC considerations and continuity overboard? *Arches eyebrows curiously*

2) Well RPed tech be accepted, as long as it has been evaluated and properly RPed in it's creation (i.e. not just saying i've got Hover Tanks and 'Predator' style Armed UAVs).So instead of genocide threads, we will have a flood of techthreads, a flood we have anyway?

3) Setting up unofficial RP player mods from the old players, these could then help to solve differences in RP's, especially the IC ones.Leads to arrogance, an even worse hierarchy AND it has been tried, anyway (And failed, too).

That's a rather patronising view in my opinion. Real life nations are always trying to get one up techwise on their opponents. The problem with NS is that no one ever builds flaws into their tech, which is a shame, because nothing ever works perfectly in RL.NS != RL. It is a game, and as such, techbitching will never succeed.

Furthermore, I beg to differ: I do.

Perhaps we need some sort of education on exactly what each ship in your navy does, why you need it, and other facts about it that are easy to understand. The same goes for the air force, army, anything else that could be a bit complicated for others to understand.

If people were educated on military-related things, they'd be able to offer constructive criticism to those who constantly create new technology.Now, in a fit of blatant hypocrisy (After all, I'm constantly bitching in technology threads), I would disagree. Personally, I don't know anything about organisation. I don't know anything about... Well, a lot of things in this sector. And I'm not particularily interested in learning them.

If anything, a basic understanding of balance, fairness, and consensual RP is necessary (However, this is merely a nice theory, and not too successful in reality... But striving for it is better than nothing). And oddly enough, it is there. Either from the beginning, or coming over time.

One of the problems that I ran into frequently was a lack of feedback on my threads. It's hard for a newbie to learn to RP when nobody offers him feedback on his threads. Tough. Everyone here has a life outside NS. The majority of people here are busy with one or more of their nations that take priority. It is simply impossible to pay attention to a flood of new nations/ threads that aren't of any particular concern for the nation (ICly). So, the only attitude that helps is to care about the nation, rather than the attention it receives.

Which brings us up to point #2: RP to impress doesn't work.

Nothing. And that's the arrogance of NS. They only care about their own stuff and it's pretty hard to jump in storylines developing from whatever date 2003. If anyone says the NS forum is an open community then that's a bold face lie. Can't say about Vastiva thread that's is bad roleplay, but hey! That the NationStates forum: players from II aren't welcome unless you declare war on someone.Awww. How sad.

Luckily, I addressed the points above... Just wanting to add... Oddly enough, say, The Island of Rose (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/search.php?searchid=293448) hasn't had any problems being noticed in NS. Oddly enough, I don't have any problems interacting with others in II (Namely, Krioval's Festival of Fighters. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413363) Did I mention that I am fascinated by Krioval's writing and backstory? Oh, and of course, I've puppets with which I'm in II threads... And I actually enjoyed posting with Freedom Exterminated, in Hogsweats CCSN (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=402768) or the CCSN Conference (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=407633) Admittedly, both were aborted, but... Still. Amazingly enough, there's actually interaction between the forums.).

Odd, but apparently, it works. Now we have to ask... Why doesn't it work for you?

Well, that is something you will have to ask yourself.

II RP is all war. All genocide. And full of Alternate Earths.
The Festival of Fighters thread I linked above disagrees. So do a few others.

II is 90% modern.

NS is 90% future.Ummm... The entirety of ESUS with it's fifty or so II nations is modern?

Lavenrunz, The most Glorious Hack, GMC Military Arms and the likes in NS are spacedy?

Odd point of view. And, needless to say, a completely unjuustified one. Looking at the first page of II, at any given time, will show you a ton of spacedy stuff.

Looking at the first page of NS, at any given time, will show you a ton of modern stuff.

And how did II become this way? The last influx of n00bs and newbies. They all came to II and RPed mediocrely. The veterans got tired of it and shifted to NS, which until that influx was the n00b infested place.Nice way of insulting a good part of NS' playerbase, a good portion of it utterly, utterly unjustified.

I don't know either why my stories end up with nothing and Texan Hotrodders writes a hit, but the fact remains NS is a lot less new-player friendly than II is.Last I checked, the majority of 'RAR, ALLIES, LETS SMASH $N00B!!!11' threads and blatant insults against new players (A few cases of which involved rude oldbies effectively mobbing new players multiple times the writing ability of said oldbie out of NS) didn't occur there. Not being replied to doesn't equate rudeness. It can just as easily equate silent enjoyment.

Here's a good idea: create a puppet nation, RP with it in II, make yourself known and then hop over to NS. Chances are really big nobody cares about you. No matter how much you write, no matter how much effort you put into it.Isn't it funny, how TIOR effectively disproved you in the thread (And one or two others I'm not participating in) I linked above?

If you're incapable of showing the patience you need to run a thread without outside participation (As, say, I have done it, for example here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=314521) or here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=321113), well, I pity you. But RPing just to attract attention... Well, your choice, but I can't say I'm surprised that you fail. As mentioned two times, RPing to impress doesn't work.

I am officially neutral. II and NS are two different kinds of RP places. II is war, NS is peace. And each have their own charms. I decided to RP in both places because they both appeal to me. And if you've ever been to #nationstates channel in IRC, they're quite fun. Not that snobbish really, so please saying that.

Same thing to NSers posting here, II has its own charm. Yes I've bashed it too, but out of love. Because whatever I may do, I am stuck to RP here forever ;)

*Cheers on, and agrees with the most glorious hack ,also agrees with Der Angst to a point *

The Future tech part of II is really suffering, I mean I’m thinking of moving totally over to ns because of n00bish shit in future tech in II, seriously when I cant have fun because idiot I am more powerful than god him self people (I wont mention any names) go around saying l00k at me I have level 99999999999 temporal tech!!!! I pwn j000!!!! Or any type of OMFG ub3r tech like “dimensional tech or what ever” it’s bad, there are still some good ft nations in II but the rest has become groveling my tech is better than your tech dick fencing.

And as for temporal tech lev0ls, I think that was crated for a wank tech to keep other people from wanking to the nation that crated the shits level. Levels are just freaking numbers to me..

I know I'm not the greatest RPer of all time but I have a few ideas.

1)Earths. They've got to stop, they encourage a less open Rping community and confuse newer members, as well as breaking down RP's and stopping newer players from joining.

2) Somthing like the University has got to open up again.

Thats all I can think of, theres not much more we can do except give advice and try to steer players onto the right course. I am moving Aust to a 'good' nation stance, or at least slightly more good than I used to be (I've never been really evil) to try to at least create a BIT more oppersition to bad nations.

Just thought of something else, NS and II have got to interact more, they don't at the moment and thats a shame as there's some great RPers on both. Both groups are accountable for the drop in standereds, not just one, so lets stop arguing about which is at fault and if NS players are arrogant or whatever and lets, I know its a noveral idea, stop arguing over whos more arrogent and whos better and lets actually do something about it.

Theres enough brains on here to sort out a soloution if we work together, but we have to work together, we can't solve this problem on our own and we can't solve this problem with only one forum.

Ah thanks, I'd lost that. I don't believe it, I lost the link to *my own* RP school ;)
No but really, RPschool was started as my idea, Hogsweat helped me by starting up the forums. I will get it revived, the moment I can get real teachers who actually teach instead of signing up and forgetting all about it.

Falconia, that was it! I'd be more than willing to start a new one if there's interest.

LOL! I tried to get into the twinning thing, but Jolt keeps logging me out when I get to that thread. Me, being too lazy to gram anyone, shrugged and kept on trying on my own.

OOC: I cant say too much in the defense of The Most Glorious Hack, or Holy Panooly since I can see some truth in both arguements. However I would go so far to say in defense of Nationstates, that the people there are a great bunch to roleplay in. I actually changed forums from II to NS because I was growing weary of the constant surrounding of n00bs in International Incidences and simply wanted a break. They were taking away from my enjoyment of the game, so I decided to make the move. Holy Panooly, if you really wanted to change forums, then its totally up to you. Know though that I had plenty of threads ignored despite how much I believed they had great potential. But eventually after trying harder and harder, I eventually fell into one roleplay. Then another. Then another and BANG! I have myself a neat little circle of authors.

Being one of those people who admittedly overlooks many of other people's stories, I suppose I can give an account of why I at least do it. I have X roleplay to post in, and Y roleplay to post in, both of which I elaborate deeply in my posts and require a good account amount of attention to detail regarding my surroundings. When I see some random chum come along, then I am simply less willing to post because #1, I dont know him, nor is he in my circle at all; and #2 well, Im simply not too open to start anything completely new. I have storylines than exist from last year, and to be honest Im not sure im looking for something new right now. If for example one of those was to end however, then I keep a keen eye open for detail. (Usually though I have a list of ideas already in my head however). Basically my nation has a direction I want it to head toward, and involving myself elsewhere which could lead toward somewhere totally different than to where I want to go in my head, then I just wont post. If I see a n00b post, I dont reply. If I see a post where I think my hard work attending to detail could go a waste, I dont post. Maybe Im a snob of sorts, maybe Im not.

Really, what can I recommend for International Incidences? Try maybe elaborating on your stories and posts a little, and you might find that a random leader having a RAWR! attitude is just a tad rediculous. There's nothing wrong with having someone with an attitude problem as your leader, but chances are he's not going to be liked very well. The think which II lacks is concequence, and by that I mean that to every action, there is a concequece whether you like it or not. I DONT mean that in the sense that RAWR you ought to be invaded for breaking laws etc, but people might dislike you if you simply speak to them the wrong way. Focus on developing your current plots, rather than constantly beginning new ones. A developed storyline is much more interesting than an undeveloped one and as much as you might say its not user friendly to newbs, it does solve the issue of the poor quality of RP. Practice makes perfect, as they say, and if you are willing to stick with a line of RP you can see your own work getting better.

This is the solution to your problem of bad quality RPs.

If you actually read my signature, you'd see I'm in 2 alliances, of which 1 is defunct. But whey! for thinly-vieled insults anyway!

My comments about players involved in 101 alliances wasn't directed at you specifically but more of a general observation. I realize that it looks that way since my post immediately followed yours. But, if you want to get all bothered about what I said *shrugs* then that's your problem. It's an observation that I made. I don't think that by joining 101 alliances will help a person's rp. What will help is the quality of players found within that alliance/trade pact/whatever.


What I said in my post, and still believe, is that when you filter out the rubbish there isn't a whole lot left in II these days and it wasn't always like that. If you really want lots of pointless condemnation-grabbing fad-evil threads and n00bs that do something stupid and get invaded right off the bat by more experienced, very bored players then you go and have fun. I don't see that ever changing despite the best intensions of a lot of II now.

I agree, but then so what? Who really cares if the board is filled up with garbage? If you are in a good group of roleplayers then it shouldn't matter, should it? I'm fairly certain that there are entire regions/groups/etc... that roleplay on offsite forums and could care less about what happens on the board. I roleplay on the NS boards to establish a sense of "togetherness" or "continuity" and also in intereacting with other players I may not get a chance to meet otherwise. But I certainly don't see it as my "mission" to "fix" the boards.

Now, in a fit of blatant hypocrisy (After all, I'm constantly bitching in technology threads), I would disagree. Personally, I don't know anything about organisation. I don't know anything about... Well, a lot of things in this sector. And I'm not particularily interested in learning them.

If anything, a basic understanding of balance, fairness, and consensual RP is necessary (However, this is merely a nice theory, and not too successful in reality... But striving for it is better than nothing). And oddly enough, it is there. Either from the beginning, or coming over time.
I probably should have been a little more specific in the chosing of my words, but I should have said that, for those interested in learning more about military technology, it would simply be nice if there was a place that they could go, or a person that they could talk to, to show them the ropes. I don't know the first thing about military technology, and I don't have much of an interest in learning as welll.

Is it the fact that it's 5 in the morning here, or did you take that thread seriously? It was meant to be a joke and a way to entertain my German instructor, who seems to have an obsession with squirrels (that's all he ever talks about). :D

I usually attempt to have Vastiva react as a real nation would. The situations the characters get into is another matter. So I "allowed a division of squirrels armed with acorns and cardboard armor" to attempt to solve my polar bear problem... with expected results.

How you see a thread may not be how everyone else sees the same thread. Some of the better reads start one way and end up another.



In some ways, yes. I still feel like had I not made a huge production of transitioning to FT, I would still be doing MT/post MT RPs that die the minute I submit the thread. I might just be a better FT writer, I guess, or maybe the circumstances under which I evolved to FT drew attention. *shrugs*

In other ways, no. For example, I still have no idea what my reputation as a roleplayer might be other than that I didn't n00k teh UN yesterday. And I'm somewhat afraid to ask because 1)it would make me look like a n00b all over again and 2)there was a giant fad to this effect a month or so ago. I guess I should have rode the fad while I had the chance.

Nah - just ask. What's the worst that could happen, you get feedback?

As far as I know, there has never been a joint blockade of an island done by both HP and SoT.

You're right. However, there was a lovely "SoT will get HP area and forces - no, wait, now SoT is absorbed by someone else - no, wait, HP comes in and magically absorbs everything back", early in NATOs existance. The thread was "declared to never have happened" - but such things do not affect the players perceptions or memories.

Wait... II players are discriminated against? *looks at AMF* Hmmm.... okay, so maybe he's an exception. Still.

What are specific differences in II and NS?

II has Factbooks and Storefronts in the Yin and out the Yang.

NS has Space fleets in the Yin and out the Yang.

II RP is all war. All genocide. And full of Alternate Earths.

NS RP is mostly peacefull RPs. Clean wars. And with a galaxy of nations.

II is 90% modern.

NS is 90% future.

II RPs tend to be shallow storylines.

NS RPs tend to be deep to overly complicated and really confusing storylines.

II has a large number of new players.

NS has a large number of veteran players.

If you play II as most play II, you will not have an easy time in NS. The same isn't said of NS, for a simple reason. It's easier for people that RP elaborately to RP simply than people who RP simply to RP elaborately.

And how did II become this way? The last influx of n00bs and newbies. They all came to II and RPed mediocrely. The veterans got tired of it and shifted to NS, which until that influx was the n00b infested place.

And I play in both. What's your point?

Somebody mentioned earlier about not getting critique on their works. Since the majority of people who have posted in this thread are well known and experienced RPers, can I have some opinions on the way I RP?

Here are some of the threads I have taken part in:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=381581 - My first ever RP. Now ended.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409481 - FT semi-intro RP. Also ended
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413444 - My latest RP. Only just started.

To anyone who takes the time to read these: Thank you for your time.

An hour of my time, most profitably spent. :)

I would say your writing needs a bit more depth of location - you tend to gloss some of the "incidental descriptions"; a bit more "description in 3D" (sounds, scents, impressions) would add more depth to your writing. There's nothing wrong with, say, noticing an eggsalad stain on the General's cuff, or "the scent of diesel fuel and bad cigars hung in the air between them", or such. Your dialogues are good, action is good, I'd just like to have - for example -


The pilots limp body crunched into old gravel and wet dirt, leaving him to bleed the area to a rusty mud. His body lay mostly motionless, his chest rising and falling slightly, even when a trio of squirrels raided his pockets half an hour later.

Then just


He landed hard.


Get that leg, and you've got a three-legged stool going. Very solid. Thank you, and please TG me if you start more threads. Very good reads!

An hour of my time, most profitably spent. :)

I would say your writing needs a bit more depth of location - you tend to gloss some of the "incidental descriptions"; a bit more "description in 3D" (sounds, scents, impressions) would add more depth to your writing. There's nothing wrong with, say, noticing an eggsalad stain on the General's cuff, or "the scent of diesel fuel and bad cigars hung in the air between them", or such. Your dialogues are good, action is good, I'd just like to have

<snip>

Get that leg, and you've got a three-legged stool going. Very solid. Thank you, and please TG me if you start more threads. Very good reads!

That's precisely the kind of thing I meant. Something like that would never have occured to me. Now that you've mentioned it, the thing with the pilot does seem kind of pathetic, and that kind of comment is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much.

Tough. Everyone here has a life outside NS. The majority of people here are busy with one or more of their nations that take priority. It is simply impossible to pay attention to a flood of new nations/ threads that aren't of any particular concern for the nation (ICly). So, the only attitude that helps is to care about the nation, rather than the attention it receives.

Which brings us up to point #2: RP to impress doesn't work.

Yay for OMG uppity newb go away now! :rolleyes: No one will ever get their foot in the door if greeted by that attitude. I guess I should consider myself fortunate that you do not represent every nation on the forums.

Wow TMGH I honestly thought you were different than the mainstream NS player, guess you aren't. But anyway. I better watch my mouth now because I'm treading on very thin ice when arguing with a moderator.

So, you are active in 10 threads. Congratulations, amazing achievement, never happened to me. Instead of complaining you're so busy why do you join them all in the first place. Especially when you're a mod and want to have a life outside NS.

Why are you acting like a total ass? He can do what he wants.

I never said big people matter, I say that the NS forum community as a whole is too closed for new players to get a chance.

Chances are really big nobody cares about you. Hmm.

If I wanted to RP there, I wouldn't be discussing this with you. I realised (didn't took me very long after writing some threads over there) that NS isn't the place for me BECAUSE it is virtually impossible to become known over there. You can take virtually with a big grain of salt, because I've only seen 1 person to move from II to NS with success: Austar Union, who happens to be helping II out quite a bit behind the scenes to improve RP around here.

Good for him and for II.

Something a Der Angst or a Nathicana or a Berserker isn't doing, or if you call poking your head around corner and dropping some OOC replies helpful you'd probably be right.

Oh, wait... does everyone have to help out? Nathi and Der Angst and Berserker have to help the RP situation in II, even if they wnat to RP NS? I wonder what responsibilities I have that you haven't told me about yet...

It might be good for you to step off your high horse and look at the good writing II has to offer for a change. It's not much I admit but it's there.

"IT'S NOT MUCH" are the three key words.

It's true that II takes things less seriously than NS, but saying that nothing is taken seriously in II goes a bit too far.

Agreed.

Every now and then the NS vs II discussion comes up and it always ends like a person like me arguing with a person like Hack. And guess? It always ends with: I play here and you do your thing there, and we call it a day. But to come to the point, it's correct what you said. II is indeed not much more than a bucket with good players surrounded by n00bs. And because of the NS attitude, the good players in II will hardly get a chance of showing off their work in NS.

Got a solution to that.

It works from two sides: if a n00b comes to NS is ignored you don't hear me complaining. But if a good player comes to NS and is willing to follow their rules, become one of them and is ignored because he's II it proves this NS and II rivalry, or however you want to call it.

The solution is to RP in both forums from day one. That way you are known to both NSers and IIers. It means double the threads to have to look over, but double the oppurtunities as well.

5) We recommend all Earth's disband (unless these are specifically different RPs, like Earth BC that kind of thing but Earth 0-8 has to go), this will serve to stop the 'but you don't own X on Y Earth' style of RP as well as allowing anyone to play with anyone rather than [Earth V] or [Earth II] only.

This I *partly* disagree with. From my own experience, an "Earth" provides new opportunities to meet new people, as it allows you to visualize your territory and, more importantly, to see who your neighbours are. As I told Triancia in my Manium thread, if you can see who your neighbours are you can see directly people you can interact with, which can forge new ties. Those new ties lead to new experiences, more ties and more experiences. Without this visualization, all newcomers can see is thousands of nations and nowhere to get their feet wet, because sorting through all those nations just to find RPing partners can be a daunting task (as I myself know). The Earths- and my own creation, the fictitious Manium continents- dramatically reduces the group of nations, making interactions easier.

*However*, the problem only comes when things become "exclusive" (even though the Earth I'm involved in, Earth II, is *exclusive*). Earths, I think, should be stepping stones to forging new ties and experiences, serving as "communities" as opposed to "clubs". How much of that is a reality is an open question, but if you ask me, if the Earths served as communities they'd go a long way in solving the problem of newcomer integration, which will ultimately raise the quality of RP's. People always like to be a *part* of something, and if we don't give them that opportunity then they can't grow. That opportunity *should* be the role of the Earths.

Wow TMGH I honestly thought you were different than the mainstream NS player, guess you aren't.

Mmm... always good to get the insults out of the way first.

But anyway. I better watch my mouth now because I'm treading on very thin ice when arguing with a moderator.

The "NationStates Moderation Team" bit under my name didn't give it away earlier? Would it be better if I logged into a puppet, or is this just a handy excuse to back away from an undefendable position?

So, you are active in 10 threads. Congratulations, amazing achievement, never happened to me. Instead of complaining you're so busy why do you join them all in the first place.

The bitterness is just oozing through my screen. I suppose I could take the time to explain how I got involved in all my threads, but I don't really see the point. You don't care, you just wanted to bitch some more. And, really, you were the one suggesting I sacrifice even more time. Luckily, since you don't mod, and aren't in 10 threads, you can perform you're little experiment.

Or have you forgotten about it already? You have a habit of forgetting the things you've said in this thread.

I say that the NS forum community as a whole is too closed for new players to get a chance.

And I provided counter-examples. As have other people. Are you actually reading this thread or just cherry-picking a couple arguements here and there?

If I wanted to RP there, I wouldn't be discussing this with you.

Ah. I see. Better to sit back an hurl invectives.

I realised (didn't took me very long after writing some threads over there) that NS isn't the place for me BECAUSE it is virtually impossible to become known over there.

This again? Of course, I suppose you did go above and beyond the call of duty. I mean, three whole threads...

Something a Der Angst or a Nathicana or a Berserker isn't doing, or if you call poking your head around corner and dropping some OOC replies helpful you'd probably be right.

With friendly people like you, I can't imagine why more people don't want to help out.

Nevermind the fact that if anyone actually says they're helping, they'll be bitched at for being condecending NS'ers...

It might be good for you to step off your high horse and look at the good writing II has to offer for a change. It's not much I admit but it's there.

Maybe you should stop insulting the very forum you're trying to defend. "Ya know, Bob's a good husband, except for that whole 'beating the shit out of his wife' thing..."

It's true that II takes things less seriously than NS, but saying that nothing is taken seriously in II goes a bit too far.

Sigh. Remembering The Thread You Post In, Lesson 2:

but NS is a lot different than II, it's a lot more serious
And that's a bad thing? Personally, I want people to take my threads seriously. If I want pointless fluff, I'll go to the spam forum.

But to come to the pointFinally!

it's correct what you said. II is indeed not much more than a bucket with good players surrounded by n00bs....after a brief stop to insult the forum you prefer to post in. Again.

And because of the NS attitude, the good players in II will hardly get a chance of showing off their work in NS.

Oh. That's your point? Don't you have anything better than blaming evil NS players? How many examples of players who have been able to get recognized in NS do I need to mention? Here's a hint: all of them. When I joined 2 years ago, I had to make a name for myself to. You're nothing special.

Which is really the crux of your problem, isn't it?

But if a good player comes to NS and is willing to follow their rules, become one of them and is ignored because he's II it proves this NS and II rivalry, or however you want to call it.

Ya know, NS may joke about II a bit, but the cold truth is that most NS players don't bloody care. If I have the time and the interest and the poster is writing something good, I'll respond. I don't care what forum they frequent, what their start date is, or what their post count is. It's the text that matters.

Hmmm ... have to pardon if this seems like digging, but in doing some long-delayed checking back, I can't help but see my name got kicked around in here several times in this way or that, and I never knew a thing about it. Been pretty busy of late.

Gonna take the opportunity to set something straight for the record, as it were, for anyone who may care. For those who don't, apologies.

I've tried playing in II. And you know what sort of response I most often got? Complete and utter ignores. No response. As if I didn't even exist. And what little did get a modicum of notice? Elitism and disdain. Not that I'm anyone that everyone ought to be falling all over to rp with, mind, but it kinda makes some of the accusations and such here ring a bit hollow.

Pot.
Kettle.
Black.

Not gonna play where I'm clearly not wanted. I figure it works out fine all around. So please, don't be crying elitism and foul when you know damn well it works both ways. No one person or limited group of people can make this game go. It takes a bunch of us - all types, all interests, all tolerance and acceptance levels. Can't blame any one person or limited group for you not enjoying yourself. You get out of it what you put into it. You don't like what you're getting out? Put something new in.

Simple as that.