NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not sure how much we'll need this, but I don't presently intend to finish the crisis in two or three posts, so it's likely that there'll be a lot of discussion. If Sino wants to get any racism or other bigotry out of his system, he can do it here instead of in the other thread. If we have confusion about timelines or distances we can argue about it here without anybody getting hunted down and punched in an ungentlemanly fashion. And, mainly, I feel inclined to describe Igovian weaponry, since almost all of it is of Beddgelen origin and can't be read about by searching globalsecurity or such other websites... it seems only fair, but since people may not care, I don't want to clutter the IC thread.

I want to say that I'm now working on a fairly slow timescale... there's only so many forces involved, and the distances beyond the immediate theatre are great. Much will probably happen within the islands before anyone arrives from without. After all, it is something like five thousand miles from France to Panama (I think) and then eight thousand miles to New Caledonia. That may not be exactly right, because at about twenty knots without delay it would probably take over a week to get to the canal, and then a couple more weeks to get to the conflict zone. Of course it has also taken the Igovian fleet a while to get on scene, but for most of our trip, reactionaries around the world kicked up a fuss about how we were obviously going to attack China or some other part of east Asia. That doesn't consider that the Igovians spent time preparing for this deployment before actually doing anything, and the French presumably have to react from scratch.

I should explain that when we reference Dwrgi or Red Dragon WIGs, we speak of wing-in-ground-effect vehicles most famously represented in reality by the USSR's Caspian Sea Monster. As such, these machines can operate both on the surface of the sea and above it, the latter at several hundred knots. This is presently seen in Beth Gellert as the mark of our super power, as we believe the Commonwealth to be the only nation presently operating large machines on this principle, and we are as such able to eat-up the vast distances of the Pacific ten times faster than opponents. Presently we don't intend to spend more than a few days messing about with the French Pacific defences, and as such expect to have some sort of result before the French armada even passes through the Panama Canal. Much as the Argentinians took the Falklands before London even decided to respond, we expect to be at least ashore before the response is co-ordinated, though of course the attempt to make the garrison surrender without a fight has failed already (darn it! :) ).

Any problems with Igovian actions can be brought-up here, likewise.

Oh, erm, I must remember to ask for a bit of help on properly defining our Charioteer anti-ship missiles.
Basically they are our long-range high-speed hard-hitting missiles as opposed to our medium-range high-agility Qian Wei missiles which are more akin to Harpoon. I need to replace the old Drapoel DSJ-1 shorter range missiles, really, but that's a short-coming in our force for now.
At the moment, Charioteer launches either from VLS cells on frigates or from submarines, climbs, cruises, and descends to wave-top height still tens of miles from target before a high-speed dash from the horizon or there about. It's supposed to be brand new, only introduced in the latest generation of warships, and to be expensive enough that we only use it when we really mean it, but even so I'm not sure how far I can go in combining extremely low and reliable wave-top flight with extremely high attacking speed, and good range at that speed. Must get AMW's more technically minded folks to give opinions on just how fast a missile can go at sea level, and just how far it might go at that speed and altitude without carrying enough fuel to fly a Jumbo.


Aircraft in the Beddgelen fleet

NT1FB-C Springer
Primary Builder: January Fort Brennus Aviation Plant
Crew: 2; pilot, weapons systems operator
Dimensions: length 15.7m/51.5ft span 12.8m/42ft
Powerplant: Two Barbarian afterburning turbofans
Maximum Speed: 1,590kph, 990mph, Mach 1.35 at altitude
Ceiling: 12,800m, 42,000ft
Range: 2,125km, 1,320miles plus in-flight re-fuelling
Armament: 30mm internal cannon (270rnds); 30mm cannon pods; 57mm, 80mm, 122mm, and 289mm rockets; 54kg, 225kg, and 450kg free-fall and laser guided bombs; cluster bombs; napalm tanks; free-fall nuclear bomb; Parliament-A/B/C AGM; DRAB ASRAAM; Qian Wei anti-shipping missile.
Springer’s dual-purpose radar can track multiple targets; number of engagements depends on type.
Notes: Designed many years ago in response to a joint Beth Gellert/ Christmas Day (defunct nation) requirement the NT1FB was nicknamed The Flying Felt-tip by Christmassians unimpressed with its rugged profile. This is the seventh design and third production version of the old war-horse

JaF NT2NSF VTOL Strike Fighter PUFFIN
Primary Builder: January Fort Brennus Aviation Plant
Crew: 1
Dimensions: length 13.1m/43ft, span 9.9m/32.5ft
Powerplant: Puffin turbofan
Maximum Speed: Around Mach 1.75, 1,850kph, 1,150mph at altitude
Ceiling: 15,240m, 50,000ft
Range: 1,450km, 900miles
Armament: Internal 30mm cannon (180rnds), four external hardpoints for; 30mm cannon pods, 57/80/122/289mm unguided rocket pods, guided and free-fall bombs (54kg, 225kg, cluster), Parliament AGM, DSJ-1 ASM, Qian Wei ASM, Angelot Maudit AMRAAM, ECM pods and drop-tanks, wingtip points for DRAB ASRAAM, internal bay for four Angelot Maudit AMRAAM. Puffin can track and engage multiple targets at once.
Notes: Capable of VTOL operation. Incorporates significant signature reduction features from intake shielding to substantial use of radar-absorbant material. Standard naval fighter in Commonwealth service.

Apti NT4ASF-C Interceptor/Air Superiority Fighter HOBGOBLIN
Primary Builder: April Titovo Aeronautics Plant
Crew: 1
Dimensions: length 21.3m/70ft, span 14m/45.9ft
Weight Empty: 18,435kg/40,642lb
Weight Maximum Take-Off: 26,500kg/58,422lbs
Powerplant: Two Sprite-C thrust-vectoring super-cruise engines for 11,000kg/24,255lb each (22,000kg/48,510lb total) dry, 15,400kg/33,950lb each (30,800kg/67,900lb total) reheat
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.4, 2,550kph, 1,585mph; super-cruise around Mach 1.38, 910mph, 1,465kph
Ceiling: 18,900m, 62,000ft
Range: 2,690km, 1,670miles plus in-flight refuelling and external fuel
Armament: Internal 30mm cannon (180rnds), four external hardpoints for DRAB ASRAAM or Angelot Maudit AMRAAM or AAELRS, internal bay for four AAELRS or six Angelot Maudit plus two DRAB.
Radar: Nayangal is designed specifically for air superiority missions. It is an electronically scanned microprocessor intelligent system able to quickly acquire target information and move on so as to minimise the possibility of counter detection. Hobgoblin can track twenty-four targets and engage eight at once.
Notes: The super-cruise fighter is capable of elaborate aerobatics and resistant to high g-forces. The airframe is coated in radar absorbent material, and contains an active radar jammer. IR shielding is incorporated into the design, which, over all, makes for good stealth characteristics.
Line Drawing (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Chivtv/NS1/NT4C.jpg)

Munitons carried into action

Apti PARLIAMENT AGM
Air-launched precision anti material/armour/radar missile
Primary Builder: April Titovo Aeronautics Plant
Range: 35km, 22 miles
Speed: 1,250kph, 777mph
Warhead: 90kg, 200lb penetrator
Guidance: Laser (A missile), imaging infrared seeker (B missile), passive radar homing (C missile)
Platforms: Springer, Spearman, Preston ASWP, Puffin, Yellowbat
Notes: A highly accurate weapon, the Parliament is almost a cult weapon in certain Beddgelen circles and is traditionally painted jet black, although no one seems able to remember precisely why. The Parliament has been used against armour and (medium hard) fixed positions with success. C missile is an anti-radar weapon able to remember the location of a target that has switched-off its radar on detecting Parliament’s launch.

Jaf DRAB SRAAM
Short range air to air missile
Primary Builder: January Fort Brennus Aviation Plant
Range: 32 kilometres, 20 miles
Speed: Mach 3+
Launch Weight: 108kg
Warhead: 6.8kg expanding rod
Guidance: All aspect Infrared
Platforms: Springer, Puffin, Hobgoblin, Cardinal, Preston ASWP
Notes: Based upon the North Korean DRAR-1 missile, known as the Drapoel Sidewinder, this missile has been completely overhauled by the Igovian State Arsenals. The DRAB missile incorporates enhanced clutter rejection, a wider field-of-regard for engaging off-boresight targets, and a more powerful seeker to lock-on at increased range. The shape of the missile has been altered by a reduction in the size of the wings, and a gas dynamic control system has greatly improved agility. The DRAB can be linked to pilots’ headgear to allow a still wider spectrum of engagement.

Apti L’Angelot Maudit AMRAAM
Primary Builder: April Titovo Aeronautics Plant
Medium range air to air missile
Range: 112km, 70 miles
Speed: Mach 4.5
Warhead: blast fragmentation
Guidance: Active radar, inertial mid-course with data linking
Platforms: Hobgoblin, Puffin, Cardinal

This doesn't include such things as our bombs, but they're briefly mentioned in the aircraft specifications, and you can imagine what a 450kg bomb does, I suppose.

I'll probably add more data as it becomes significant, but feel free to ask about anything. I may not have all the answers, but generally have at least some data about everything I bother to claim use of. As you can see, it isn't always in fantastic detail, but it's better than nothing, eh? And who are we going to buy weapons off if we don't provide our own?

I'll add data for ships, but as yet that doesn't seem as important... unless the French mount some sort of attack on the fleet, at which point I'll fling out some data.

I've actually lost much up to date info on Beddgelen weapons, so this is old data that may actually omit some recent changes I'd made to fill in gaps or make for better realism. Why I didn't get around to replacing old data with new, I'll probably never know. Yargh.

Sorry for that being so dull, but that's why I made a new thread to stuff it all in :)

It's times like this that make me remember why I started that OGRE thing... and also why I never really got anywhere with it. [falls over]

Xiaguo does not want another change of policy in Asia, and certainly does not want certain aims of BG to cause a shift and rivalry between European states and the countries of Asia.

Well, you're free to do what you like with your nation. I assume then that the Xiannese honestly don't understand the Igovians, or else they are actively trying to start a liberation war to finally remove the Sinoese Junta from power in China.

I say this because sending fleets of war to prevent the liberation war will lead to said fleets being destroyed by the Igovians, which will of course start a Sino-Indian war, drawing in all the Chinas, the Hindustanis and by extension the rest of the SSRC, and having China assaulted from several sides where previously there was absolutely no danger of China being threatened (unless by crack-pot European dictators such as the one BG is fighting looking to re-take port territories). Presumably that'll increase Holy League ambitions, threatening all of Asia, and drawing in more nations on the progressive side and ultimately against the Chinese.

Seems like a strange thing to do unless you're trying to weaken China (and kill millions of people in the process), which makes me think that elements in Xiaguo don't want to submit to the junta.

(If you think that I'm over-thinking this, I say that we're back to others under-thinking it and going in to battle with their eyes closed.)

OOC: Believe me on this, as Xiaguo is not a supporter of the Holy League. You can think through the rest of the story.

The fleets, I assure you, will be twice as large as the one used against Hudecia and Sino. I will post statistics if requested.

Bear in mind that New Caledonia is located right next to (drum roll) Roycelandian Vanuatu, home of the Roycelandian Pacific Fleet, the Maritime Air Service Pacific Combat Wing, as well as a large number of Colonial Guardsmen and Imperial Foreign Legionnaires. In short, Roycelandia can't exactly stand by whilst one of our Allies gets sabres rattled at him...

I'm not sure how relevant Xiannese involvement will be in the end. With Sinoese forces spread across North China, and Liu apparently having no intention of leaving Xiaguo with control of its fleet, it may just be recalled back to port before it reaches the area.

OOC: In reference to a note by Strathdonia: Its true, the canal doesnt support shipping thats too large/deep... I'm trying to recall history, but wasnt a major weakness of the WWII fleet that its vessels, until after war production began, had to be able of passing through the Canal?

The Panama canal limits on ship size is as follows:
80,000 dwt, 965ft (290m) in length; 106ft. (32.3m) beam; and 39.5ft (12.04m) draft. [36 vessels daily].

By comparison, the Suez locks can let pass vessels of 150,000 dwt; 53 ft draft.

I'm just here for the tag, for now. Also, Spyr, do you think we should perhaps use one of the Lyong threads for a meeting of the Daisu with the Party leaders from NY, Tord, Spyr and Sujava?

OOC: Sure thing, NY... lets stick it in Penninsular Dealings. Thats already got the previous committee meeting (which got .gif-ified).

AHA! Found the info on Panama in AMW.

IC- Quinntonian Dra-pol reminds all the nations involved, that while it holds naval and strategic rights to the Panama Canal, Panama gets the ecenomic benefit to that canal [from the charging of a toll for passage]. However, militarilly, we have and will continue to control that vital strategic area.

(from the Malacca thread)

Which would imply that Quin ought to be consulted on passage of whatever fleet components are small enough to make use of the Canal.

The Xiannese fleet is the largest of the Chinas, and is independent from Sinoese and Taiwanese control, which also applies to the Xiannese Army and Airforce.

Sinoese troops are in Northern China because of the war, but has not returned. Xiaguo can use the, still, thousands of troops against Sino if they wanted to, but as a last resort in order to secure unification. The Xiannese will sign a seperate reform policy that will allow a set date of the unification of the Empire's forces.

The Sinoese and Taiwanese will not be included in this, and Xiaguo takes all responsibility. They will not confront the foreign navies and will be surveying the waters around the isles.

Hi everybody.

Xiaguo, I thought that a good portion of your navy was destroyed by Sino. A Chinese-Indian war would be a very bad thing, considering that it would probably destroy Kanendru, which isn't doing too badly these days, and probably knock Hindustan back fifty years economically. Keep in mind, even if you (BG), me, Lyong, and even Dra-pol band together to fight Sino, Xiaguo, and Taiwan, our populations would be, give or take, equal. Sino's army alone can swallow many nations person for person, and I wouldn't expect much less from Xiaguo. Taiwan at least has the technology to match anything that we field.

If Hindustan is drawn into a war with all the Chinas plus France, it would be a disaster. The navy would be at the bottom of the ocean before you could snap your fingers, and the airforce wouldn't last too long either. The ground forces would probably survive for a while, as they are fairly well equipped and the terrain is favorable for the defenders, but the sheer weight of numbers coupled with the advanced equipment that Sino, France, and Xiaguo have would quickly crush the HDF.

I don't even know why we're talking about war between the Chinas and the SSRC/BG. Theres been some recent tension, but really theres always been tension between Sino and....well, nearly everyone.

So, the Xiaguo fleet is not coming to destroy either side...but just watch and pressure?

Okay dokie.

Hey BG, Que Paso?

Now, first of all, mea cupla, I admit being startled into this post. By the same token, Im a little flustered you went so far without contacting me, but then I was the absent one wasnt I. If youve ever seen Time Bandits, which I suspect you have, youll get it.

So, I got flustered, and launched a fleet, OOC time. Now, I sped it up in consideration of the time my state missed IC to respond, and I guess that was not correct...but then youd have to rewind too, since I didnt have a chance to respond to anything.

I think, then, if the location of the fleet is not the issue (If it is, please lemme know, it can be 'tweaked') the issue is the 100,000 lber. A big issue, no pun. Now, I am perfectly willing in the face of such potent critics to just sub another Mark I in its place, for about the same effect and for recognized Canal durability.

Feedback? Comments? Praise?

::lines it up, and bumps it::

Ah well, BG!!!

Anywho, I must be off ere long. I should just ask that you answer my queries on the stipulation that if you find grievances, the assault will be frozen until said questions are answered to everyones satisfaction.

Personally, I was looking forward to Crown v Communist: A rumble of the Ideolouges (that spelled rights?)

Xiaguo's Navy was not wiped out while in the war against Sino, except for the Southern Fleet (Nan Yang) which had confronted Sinoese ships near Taiwan. Those were only small skirmishes as the government was keen in saving their navy. The failed attacks on Shanghai which was quickly repelled by Sinoese aircraft.

Yes, and one of the reasons were to kind of show off, but main point, keep everything under control there. We don't want an island taken over, and then thenext the whole Oceania becomes another puppet of BG.

I just want to put my posts in a timeline. The emergency session of the parliament was convened when the LJDC reported the intentions of the Igovian fleet, which would have been about the same time the rest of the world learnt of the massing attack. They've been meeting for a number of hours now, and currently Director Jidoshin is traveling to a meeting between the Party leaders of their repective nations, and President Strain.

I imagine that the French fleet would be hastily assembled, however, Lyong is a lot closer to the conflict zone. If the Lyong nations decide to go to war, then we'd probably have a huge jump on any European fleets.

Mh, right, yes. I think I'm just going to have to ask that we be fairly thorough about this. That means, of course, that people feel free to call me on anything unfair that I may do. We really are total strangers, all of us, from different places and lives, so we're bound to cross wires.

Not that I expect it matters much, but for the sake of avoiding offence, I admit to being every bit the liberal utopist that my Beddgelens may be, but that France is cool, anyway :) (Fine, for the communards, Voltaire, Zola, Camus, Proudhon and so on and so forth rather than the Bourbons, but that's not the point, either! heh. Oh! and Noir Desir and Diabologum. I'll stop.)

Right. Now I'm pretty drunk on cheap vodka, but lets see what I wrote earlier...

The French fleet will take weeks to arrive on scene from France after the decision is made to mobilise (when that happened is up to Elkazor, of course, based on what France did with information about the Igovian fleet's movement and the initial appearance of an advance on the Philippines (or China, according to some)). Then it has to get Quinntonian approval to use the Panama canal, or use a different route. If it goes via Panama, unless Quinntonia tells us different, we can assume, I think, that the massive French battleships will not fit? I could be wrong about that. So they would have to be left or else take a different route.

(Not that this is IC knowledge, but a Beddgelen submarine squadron is poised in the Arabian Sea to converge on any French fleet that may try to travel via United Elias' Suez and exit the Red Sea... it hasn't advanced through the Gulf of Aden as yet, not wanting to start any trouble by getting detected by pro-French elements on the Peninsula.)

Probably we should figure out when the French decided to mobilise. Since I assumed a bit much early on about when Elkazor would see this thread, and didn't telegram him directly until after the fleet was well under way, I can't really push too much. Perhaps as soon as it became obvious that we were going past the Philipines, it would have seemed reasonable to assume that we were either planning to attack French holdings or else Roycleandian... and even half-decent intelligence officers would have dismissed the idea of us attacking the Roiks while Lusaka is so weak: Hindustan would probably never forgive us for getting the United African Republic destroyed in retaliation.

How far is the Molucca Sea from New Caledonia? I'd be quite prepared to accept that the French gambled on some economic damage and set out after we passed that point, and so we'd subtract that distance from the maybe thirteen thousand miles that the French have to travel in order to estimate the Igovian lead.

Wow, I just made this more like work than fun, didn't I?

Damn Vladivar vodka. Damn Har Mar Superstar and his gyrating advertising.

Really, we need to see whether Q. would let the French through Panama, I suppose. Singly, BG is more weighty a lobby than France, but Roycelandia is close to the USQ and might support the French application. Damn it.


I can't remember what else I wanted to say.

Roycelandia would certainly support French applications to use the Panama Canal- I also beleive that Roycelandia has a "deal" with Quinntonia that allows us Free Passage through the Panama Canal at any time, as part of the Roycelandian/Quinntonian Free Trade Agreement.

Failing that, I guess the French are going to have to sail around Cape Horn... Good luck to them. Aside from taking ages, I wouldn't want to try and navigate a Super Battleship around the Horn at this time of year... ;)

Bear in mind, of course, that the Roycelandian Pacific Fleet is already in Vanuatu, so arguments about what the French can and can't get through Panama still need to bear in mind there's a large Naval Force in the area anyway.

A Dreadnought is still an impressive sight to behold, and while not in the same leage as a French Super Battleship, I don't think any ship in the Bedgellen Navy would fancy it's chances going toe to toe with the likes of the IRNS Hugo Drax, the IRNS Elliot Carver, or the IRNS Donovan Grant...

Quite possibly not, sir. Partly why we're trying not to do anything too provocative, like accidentally blowing-up the wrong island :)

Still, I don't know how much luck the Roycelandian navy would have in pinning down the Commonwealth's WIG-vehicles, either. It would no doubt be a good fight, but one I'd rather have a go at avoiding! Oh, er, look, Lusaka somehow got its hands on... uh...[digs in pockets] these nuclear bombs. Go and worry about that, instead ;)

Quite frankly, BG, I suggest we do a complete rewind.

After all, your fleet would have taken a very long time to travel too, and I didnt respond until you had practically invaded. So, I was startled ::Points a finger at BG:: and it was YOUR fault!

So, I certainly would have responded as soon as the SL began, which would have given us equal timing, if not distances. Indeed, if I had been around, I would have responded soon after your first post on Salvador without delay, and I suspct soon after would have sent the fleet. Now, you shall (wish I could use Latin, its pluperfect is much smoother in this case than English grammar) have had to wait, or halt, your fleet while I persued options for travel OOCly---as Royce pointed out either Panama, the Horn, Good Hope, or the Suez. In short, your expedient efforts at revolution were the cause of this 'quickening'....cant say I object, but lets agree to call a spade a spade. Oh, and I think Al Ahzad would have something to say about Begdellen Subs in the area, as he is an extraordinarily close ally of mine.

In either case, no matter what course of action I had taken a priori in these matters, it still would have been convulted in respect to your "OOC Blitzkrieg" of thought and, if I may say, adventurous story lines. For someone into civil rights, you dont seem to be that fair :(

A Tabula Rasa in this case seems to be the only solution, regardless of the travels to the respective goal on both sides. Granted, I have further to go (indeed and depending on the route) but our reaction times, i.e. some sort of objective time table, should have been on the same page.

And, of course, several major players have been absent of late. Royce was out for a bit, myself, Quinntonnia and the Tsar are only soon to be expected, and son on.

Ergo, I say, turn back! And lets start this fairly, correctly, and with more joy. This doesnt mean we will have to create totally new posts (Although in many cases that shall result) and we can perhaps maintain the same sort of Modus Operandi as used in this farce.

Well?

Oh, and in response to your utopian idealism, I am every bit the reactionary that I seem to be. HA HA, thank God Ill be able to invade the University soon with my thought, and start teaching things that havent been taught properly in decades!

Oh Lord, I'm going to hear about some guy preaching the return of the French monarchy and starting a protest in some East coast college soon on the news, aren't I?

Reactionaries and revolutionaries...What ever happened to conservative democracy? Compassionate conservatism? Sigh...

Well, that's you, isn' it, AC? Can't handle one little arch-conservative and one liberal progressive? Where's your democratic spirit?


Anyway, Elkazor, we don't have to play a perfectly cohesive timeline. You can easily write retrospectively, can't you? You could have had the King hearing early reports of the Igovian fleet assembly and then moved quickly on through intelligency keeping an eye on the fleet's progress until it became clear that French or Roycelandian Pacific colonies must have been the target, which presumably would have become clear once we passed the Philippines without incident.

Still, the French fleet has twice as far to go as has the Igovian, which is already assembled and on the move before the French have any reason to suspect a thing. Then the Igovians are within probably three thousand miles of the area, and the French sat four times as far away. Unless the French form a battle fleet with marine strength and set sail for the Pacific every time a foreign power puts to sea, in which case they'd only be twice as far away -assuming they get permission to transit the canal- so the Igovians would only have a few days or maybe a week or something to run riot before reinforcements arrived. Of course, the sailing of a French fleet also gives us time to get a second fleet on hand and waiting, if we feel the need...

That discounts our WIGs, the larger ones of which cruise at over 300knots, the smaller over 200, each with thousands of miles range and the capacity to shift thousands or scores of troops (/tonnes of supplies) respectively.

I mean, even if you sailed before it was absolutely clear that there was any threat to French holdings, we'd likely still get to New Caledonia by the time you hit Panama, and as my reckoning has it that we've only been on scene for a couple of hours, it's extremely optimistic and loose to assume that your reactive fleet has got to the Canal... so I don't really see a problem.

In OOC time you may only have reacted after our fleet hit the region, but it's no trouble to assume that IC the reaction came days earlier, is it? The way I see it, New Caledonia has been under attack for a few hours, and the French fleet is either cutting across the Atlantic or is sitting about, waiting for Quinntonian permission to pass through the Canal (unless you just fight your way through, but I don't imagine you'll want to, and may not need to).

In the meanwhile, we can carry on at the Pacific colonies, passing by only a matter of hours of IC time, while we wait OOC for Q's permission or denial on the canal. Then, even if it takes days of real-time, only hours pass in game (and if days pass in game, we can assume that your fleet has made it half way into the Pacific at that time).

Does anyone else think I'm being terribly absurd to assume that this is basically the case? Isnt' New Caledonia on its own (barring Roycelandian intervention) for days and probably weeks, even assuming Quinntonian permission comes the minute the French get to the canal (or before)?

It doesn't ruin RP to be up-against it for a while! Kanendru was up against it when the Chinese attacked, but fought on and won; so did Dra-pol when a coalition formed against it; and Lusaka and African Commonwealth went up against it in Gabon and lost, but survived to RP another day.

AMW is supposed to be realistic: in a worst case situation, it only turns out that it's not possible to defend a far-flung empire in this day and age when you're outnumbered by just about every major power.

(I don't mean to sounds like I presume victory, just trying to convey the idea that, even if it looks hopeless, there's still RP to be had)


I really don't care for the implication (well, accusation) that this has been a farce. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with it, short of the idea that islands can be totally evacuated and mined in all their backwards isolation, independently minded populations conscripted en masse and armed inspite of similar isolation from the imperial heartland, and massive battleships sailed from Panama to Polynesia in an afternoon.

Yes, he does have a point. It is still a difficult task to maintain such a far fetched empire, especially when it is on the other side of the world.

The Chinese fleets are still at the Caroline Islands.

Whilst you raise some excellent points, especially vis a vis the getting the fleets across the planet one, there's still the fact that the French aren't on their own.

The Roycelandian Pacific Fleet would have been put on full alert as soon as the Igovian ships passed the Philippines, with the not unreasonable assumption they were heading to Vanuatu.

Having realised that Nouvelle Caledonie was the target, they aren't going to simply pack up and go home- realising that the French probably have almost no Naval assets in the region at all, they would stick around to try and defend New Caledonia, whilst ensuring sufficient resources to defend Vanuatu.

In short, you can expect to face at least 3 Dreadnoughts, a couple of Submarines, and at least 1 squadron of aircraft from the Roycelandian Pacific Fleet should you actually attack New Caledonia.

I'd be happy to go with your suggestion about posting retrospectively... we've done it a lot before, and it can work- although I'm still not sure why Beth Gellert is attack New Caledonia when the French are colonising Algeria...

Well, of course. We are trying to avoid drawing in the Roycelandians and wrecking their slightly more respectable empire, too ;) but if you choose to get directly involved then that's an IC matter and, I think, has no elements that need questioning much OOC.

We're deploying against the French Pacific colonies because, first, they have been used in the application of counter-democratic piracy and terrorism in Asia.
Second, the trend for France restoring its old empire directly threatens Asia generally and Beth Gellert specifically, and the first item suggests that New Caledonia would be used in some capacity during such restorative imperialism.
Third, we planned the basis of the operation before the Algerian crisis became what it is.

And besides, why shouldn't we do one right thing just because there's another right thing that might be done instead? Algeria is more high-profile, and we might expect that somebody else will try to deal with it. Beth Gellert is not the world's only democratic enforcer, and can't be everywhere at once (quite).

Finally, this leaves us with a good 2/3rds of our fleet deployment potential in reserve. It means that we have a lot waiting to join in if oh, say, a third power decides to step-in on France's side. Especially one with its own far-flung colonies that might require deterrent attention [dot dot dot] ;) If we attacked into the Med, we might need most of our strength to be commited, leaving Asia exposed and giving us nothing to rattle at other imperialists. This way, we have one sword-wielding hand free.

I'm just posting the fact that we actually have a moderate size fleet there so no-one jumps up and down and says "OMG!!!11! GODMODER!!1!SHIFT+1" (or the AMW equivalent) when the IRNS Elliot Carver shows up and starts engaging in some Gunboat Diplomacy(TM). :)

I'll see what Elkazor has to say before I start actually shelling people's fleets, but I think we can all take it as read that the Bedgellen Fleet is being buzzed by the Maritime Air Service's Pacific Combat Wing at a safe distance and are within visual range of at least one Dreadnought off the coast of New Caledonia.

We can't just wash our hands of France, but on the other hand, we're not going to jump in start shooting either... as you say, we have our own Far Flung Colonies to mind, as well... ;)

How do you join the AMW?

There's a thread somewhere called "Modern World opening to New Members"...

I beleive it's here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=376859

Well it says they are not accepting any more applications.

You should still ask what country and region is still available. They usually will ask you some questions anyway then deciding whether you can join.

Indeed. Anyone can apply, many are accepted. An application consists of the following:

1) Geography: Choosing a country/ies that are as yet unoccupied by another player-nation.

2) History/Politics: Outlining the form you invision that country taking under your control.

3) Roleplay Record: Providing some RP samples from your previous RPs.

Its rather simple, really... you put it out there, and it gets analyzed. If you've chosen geography that is actually part of an existing PC nation, or if its one of several NPC nations with existing backstory (most of Southeast Asia, for example), you'll be informed as the application goes through the communal review. In the case of those historied NPC states, you may be asked to take into account that history as you determine the form and history of your state. If your nation's structure is ludicrous, you will be questioned on it as well, but AMW has such a wide diaspora that theres probably precedent for anything you can come up with ^_^.

As for RP samples, its always good to have a variety here. The literary quality is not the key factor, so much as the content: If all your RPs are invasion threads or 'land-grabs' on various Earths, then there may be some reluctance to let you in, as AMW does try to elevate the game from a 'Risk' style world to a more varied one.

East Islandia is located where RL australia would be, and yes, I am part of the modern world (1.5 million man armed forces, though i suppose i'm puny compared to you guys with your massive dreadnaughts and the strange bedgelen craft).

so uh... whos liberating who?

The Beddgelens are liberating French subjects in the Pacific.

You have over 50% less people than Dra-pol, and as many or more military personnel? I always pictured EI as a sort of sunny paradise, not a giant bootcamp shut off from the outside. Erp.

My mistake. though i did post up my military in modern world somewhere and ppl did say it was reasonable.

Basically every branch of service is about a quarter million. So....that's about three quarters of a million. Shit I miscalculated.

How does a million sound? for COMBINED armed forces this is.

Hmm... So Beth Gellert is liberating

French Polynesia (Tahiti)
New Caledonia
Vanuatu
Wallis and Futuna

Hmm i wonder if i left anything out.

btw, how does Dra-pol feel about this?

Sorry about my lagged delay.

BG, righto. I love that idea. The French Fleet parks it in the Panama, waiting for Quinntonnian permission to cross.

Meanwhile, we do RP that, although it shall no doubt be excellent and prodigious, will only take up a few days of IC time.

I think that is the cure for it then. I shall amend the post stating that the French fleet is close to arriving, rather it shall remain at the gates of the canal until Q gives the green...or red, as case may be.

But, I think that is good. I need but your ok, and then we can resume the assualt after your first air raid.

Oh, BTW, I think it would still be ok to say I sent the Mirages ipso facto, without bringing other factors in, and it is IRL plausible.

Ah, well, what say you?

Oh, I forgot, theres more.

BG, I will admit to you that I was unrealistic in the Fleet Actions. Thats all. Accusations of any Modding, rediculous as they may be, on my part, dissolve in the mass actions that were taken in my absence.

En Masse conscription works. Perhaps y'all havent noticed, but the Holy Leauge isnt just about sitting on thrones and partying, although that is a big share of it. Its abouyt warping peoples minds into a paradigm just as (if not more) radical than revolutionism. One God, through Christ his son and a host of Saints and the Holy Mother, dictate the order of the world through their lieutenants, Kings. Now, considering French Priests would be actively reactive, the citizens would be near brainwashed with notions of martyrdom. In other, less convulted terms, they are going to take a stand against Satan for King and Christ...Id say thatd inspire heroism, and I do say that.

Oh, and Royce, God Bless You for a true friend and ally.

EI, Beth Gellert isn't liberating Vanuatu AFAIK. Vanuatu is Roycelandian, and the Roycelandian Pacific Fleet has been deployed to try and scare off the Beth Gellerten invasion of New Caledonia- as others have said, an invasion would probably kill many of the people on the island.

We're not actually at War- just Sabre Rattling, so to speak. Having said that, if the Bedgellens "accidentally" attack one of our Dreadnoughts, all bets are off...

Oh, and Elkazor... don't mention it. But one day I shall come to you on the day of your Daughter's Wedding to ask a favour... [/Godfather] :D

Yeah, we're not planning to touch Vanuatu at the moment. We've just kept, well, two thirds of our fleet strength back in the Indian Ocean (plus three thousand marines in Lusaka, "helping to round-up criminal members of the defeated LUAN Party coup" of course) supposedly in case the French come through the Red Sea or around southern Africa, but also one may argue in case the Roycelandians join against us in without making sure that their African holdings can resist retalition from four complete fleets and whatever may happen to be hanging around in Igomo's Lusaka :)

And there's no suggestion that by leaning on Lusaka while Hindustani paras are there that we might hope to accidentally entangle our Indian neighbours in the conflict if Roycelandia chooses to expand it! (Though it is a bit funny that it's taking so long to round up a few military officers and politicians who have almost no public support.)

Anyway, yeah, we've still got plenty of problems in New Caledonia, because we view the people -even many of those under arms- as essentially brain-washed, and don't really want to kill them all. Though in truth only half of the mission is liberation, the other half being to deny the French empire a strategic foothold used for all sorts of dastardly things.

Hm, right... well, I'm happy that we seem to be more or less sorting things out without any lasting problems between members. I just hope I can manage to get back my momentum, now!

Indeed.

So then, BG, do I take it from your last post that you wish to continue as stated?

Which is to say minimal, RP intensive short-novella style SLs until Quint gives yea or nea on the Canal?

If so, then lets go. If not, then lets get this solved and exit OOC land.

Quinntonia does control Panama Canal, and will not allow any military vessels through from any nation unless as a result of a multi-national force. Roycelandia would be allowed vessels through for manouvers, but if it is found that any are crossing for more than training exercises, access will be immediately cut off. NO HOLY LEAUGUE NAVAL UNITS WILL BE ALLOWED THROUGH.
This canal is reserved for Quinntonian military use and international trade only.
WWJD
Amen.

Okay, finally, thanks for the info Quit.

So then, BG, now that thats out of the way, Lets assume the fleet had chosen to travel round the horn. That would put it bout equal to Brazil (Atlantic side), still weeks to make it in theatre.

Assuming that Quit can manage to stay out of the situation (I.E. Quinntonnia blowing up Caledonia before BG even gets there as an act of purely "American Do-gooding") I say we have ourselves a damn good SL, worthy of weeks of fun between a hard core "Iron Progressive", you, and a hard core "Old School Conservative" that loves the glow of crowns, me.

In other words, BG, please, you may commence your fire...may we pick up perhaps with a response on your end to the initial air raid?

I just wanted to remind everyone that with the Sino conflict, Quinntonia had been massively buidling up their military presense in the area, and now has 2/3 of its naval power a few hundred kms. off the coast of Japan, and a full 3/4 of its air force there, in ROK and Hamhung. The Quinntonian government wants nothing to do with this conflict, but is watching it very carefully.
WWJD
Amen.

China is also monitering than situation very carefully, American forces in Asia is also being monitered.

Cont. from IC thread: Some players have taken OOC issue with other nations' IC condemnations of French chemical weapons attacks. I don't see how that's appropriate clutter for the IC thread: other nations are free to criticise WMD use if they like, especially if -like the Quinntonians- they've lost people to such weapons in the recent past. Apart from ignoring the reasons for the invasion (French criminal behaviour), these criticisms imply that a relatively weak nation like Dra-pol or Kanendru is free to unlease biological hell on China, because China's bigger, and that the Chinese would just have to like it. Now, that's all well and good IC, your nations can say what they like whether or not it makes sense, if it serves them, but it's an odd position to hold OOC, isn' it, and doesn't belong in our war anyway.
Nations shouldn't be pressured OOC to change their IC position: they'll do that IC if they want to.

I've resisted making an OOC issue of BG's reasons because I didn't think it proper, but I am tempted to see this is OOC reactionary behaviour rather than IC reasoning when people make more OOC criticisms of an operation launched in the middle of nowhere against almost nobody because of international piracy and imperialism than they OOC or their nations IC did over said imperialism or other examples of it... even where it potentially threatens their nations!

But that's probably behind us, hopefully. Mh.

This may not end up being important, either, as I hope to RP through it, but I've been a little unsure about the general preparedness of little New Caledonia... I don't imagine that they really had time to dig the massive earthwork defences up half a coast, with a population of a few hundred thousand, and to support a big elite military corps on the island, of natives in the main, but thus far I've played it that we could of course have under-estimated the task; thus it has taken us almost two days to get off the beach where we meant to do it in minutes, and that allowed the Roycelandians time to get in and sink one of our frigates amongst other dastardly happenings. So that's okay... I think that the assets on hand will still deal perfectly well, I just wanted to have put my concerns out there now before we really smack into the French and it becomes an issue.

I hope that doesn't sound bitter or anything, I think I've been fine with accepting failures like the loss of one amongst only 30 of our entire navy's general warfare frigates, the miracle evacuation of Wallis and Futuna by New Caledonian means in the space of not more than a few days and the militarisation of a remote and peaceful part of the world to face more fire than RL Europe could muster at sea, I just want it to be commonly believed that I'm not trying to walk all over someone who wasn't expecting it without giving fair consideration.

I should point out that many of the population of Wallis & Futuna were evacuated to Vanuatu by the Roycelandians.

Considering there aren't that many people on the islands (maybe 20,000, tops), and larger numbers of people are evacuated in places like Florida every time there's a Hurricane, I'd say three days to evacuate the islands is more than reasonable, assuming a joint Roycelandian/French effort.

I think BG is being more than fair in the situation, all things considered.

However, I have to say I don't really understand a lot of the "Modern" weapons used on the battlefield in RL. Certainly, it appears that whoever fires first wins, basically, what with all the laser-guided stuff and Insta-Kill Counter-Weapons Systems and so on.

I know it's all RL stuff (or feasibly so), but I guess I'm just Old-Fashioned for thinking that it's a bit unsporting to simply press a button and watch a small blip on a computer screen vanish.

I'm also going to confess that personally, I'm not up on the specifics of the modern weapons systems- anything pre-Vietnam War, I'm fine with (WWI/WWII is a specialist area of interest of mine), but the modern stuff... well, when I say "Electronic Counter Measures", please don't ask me for specifics- just assume they're as good as everyone elses, OK? :)

Roycelandian Dreadnoughts do have Missiles and Rockets on them, but I had assumed that our encounter was being played out at close range- ie, 800m or so- well under minimum range for a Anti-Ship Missile, but perfect for a Broadside from the Dreadnought's massive naval guns...

OOC: Laser jamming is definitely possible and effective and has been done, killing infantry with lasers is also possible (the IDF's MTHEL program) but ineffective, as it takes four (or is it 3?) humvees to carry the equipment and the job could be done just as well with a 20 millimetre.

(No need to say OOC, this is an OOC thread ;) )

Ah, for the record, then, Igovian Soviet laser weapons technology is only up to damaging optical equipment and blinding persons up to mayyybe six kilometres in good environmental conditions. There's no real danger of us frying whole people :)

The MT-4 Hathi is BG's brand shiny new tank supposed to be on top of the world with composite armour, active and passive countermeasures, and a powerful (over-rideable) computer co-ordinating it all.

I certainly (and very derunkanly, I am on the last measure from a bottle of cheap vodka) see Royce's point about the sport in war and all that malarky, but I think that it is still there. In this situation, the French are beyond absurdly outgunned, as I see it, and we know what they have and where they have it, and modern technology allows us to deal with that. If we were trying to storm through Brittany, it would be a different matter. But if you think about it, a garrison of a thousand men with bolt action rifles and bayonets and maybe a field gun would be totally screwed if a division with tanks and biplanes and monitors came up against them ninety years ago. I think it's basically the same as it's ever been.

I think that modern warfare is more complicated than I care to imagine, Roycelandia, and flicking switches is the least of it. I mean, those blips vanishing are people and assets, and the enemy's seeing blips vanish just the same... only those are you getting blown to kingdom come. There's still as much grit as ever, I suppose. Hey, at least both sides here are keen on bayonets and the guts behind them :)

But yeah, when there's not too much specific, I'll tend to assume what makes sense in context ,even if it's not specified. Of course, when the French specify that they have roughly 13mm CIWS, we'll laugh and launch more missiles that aren't going to be exploded on a good day until they're already within damaging proximity to their vessels, but that's a different matter entirely :)


Too many smilies. I'm a happy driunk, I'm afraid.


...why do all my typos come in the word, "drunk"?

Ooh! I did it!

I see what BG means about the similarities between now and say WWI, but there are some minor flaws there.

For a start, WWI tanks were notoriously unreliable and often got bogged or broke down. Biplanes weren't much better, with a top speed of maybe 120/130kmh and a lethal armament of two .303 MGs (possibly three if it was a 2-seater), and some small bombs. Bolt action rifles can (and did!) bring down low-flying WWI biplanes all the time.

The Monitors are a good point, however- a 25lb field gun wouldn't be much help against one.

Even so, I think there's a world of difference between strafing German Soldiers with a Sopwith Camel (and trying to shoot one down with a Mauser K98!) and pressing the button to launch a Tomahawk Cruise Missile from several hundred kilometres away.

That's part of the reason the V-2 was so terrifying in WWII- there was nothing anyone could do to stop them short of taking out the launch sites. At least the V-1 "Doodlebugs" could be intercepted by aircraft (The Hawker Typhoon was especially good at this).

I mean, how does an aircraft intercept or evade a Homing Missile moving at Mach 3.5? You can't, surely...

Well, one can use all sorts of electronic measures (lasers, radio waves, etc.) to scramble the missile's electronics.

Well, you want to worry about our Mach 4 missiles more ;)

Heh, no, really though. I'm no expert, but have picked up bits and pieces as I go along. The mass of less than impressive II battles involving two swarms of fighters loosing missiles at 100km apart and then seeing who gets hit most is, so far as I can see, a load of nonsense. Soviet planes seeing somebody loose their missiles at maximum range would just turn around and run them out of range. Missiles fired at extreme range also are likely to be flying without power in the final stages and are surely then far from agile and may be evaded. Then there's -as AC says- counter measures, where there's a constant technological battle between said countermeasures and missiles' own counter-countermeasures, heh.

I think that there's a significant techological gap opening up between the world's most powerful nations and the rest... the Commonwealth, China, United Elias, and Quinntonia (and potentially the Roycelandian Empire) have the capacity to keep ahead of the likes of France et al. As Britain found after WWII, you can try to stay ahead as a smaller power, and have successes, but you're always going to struggle to replace each generation's technology with world beating replacements.

The Soviets rather see the French in the same military light that the Roycelandian musketeers probably saw the Lusakan natives five centuries ago. They can fight and sometimes take advantage of poor planning or just luck, but when we do things right they can't possibly afford to best us.

(Hey, y'can't take offence at that attitude and then go empire building in the 3rd world)

Generally I've felt the same way as Roycelandia, in the past. I worry about a near-future where the Americans start to really take advantage of their economic dominance to use unmanned fighters against opposing manned jets, have soldiers running about with enhanced hyper fancy suits that have them jumping over buildings, and shooting people round corners and behind barricades... it seems so unfair. But then, machinegunning riflemen must have felt the same way in the past, as well as shelling them from two miles away.

(That's not to say that BG is about to start using those fancy future techs, of course. Just that our fighters can out gun the French fighters (and all but maybe the Jetfires in Roycelandia's case), that they can't reliably defeat our tanks in a fair head to head fight, that when using large numbers of men our superior recruitment pool gives us more elite troops than they can ever have, and so on and so forth. France has the same advantages over Algeria, and BG doesn't have the same advantages over the USQ.)

I don't know where I was going with this, I just keep laughing at the Simpsons and forgetting what I'm...getting at.

Sporting? War is not "sporting" nor "fair", and it never will be. It's not a game. It's a means to achieve an ends, and all that matters is victory.

I frankly am overjoyed by the US's growing military and technological dominance. It leads to less deaths, both civilian and military.

Ah, and does anyone know what exactly Russia's Indian Fleet is composed of? Sino mentioned it, but I can't find more specifics on the net.

Sporting? War is not "sporting" nor "fair", and it never will be. It's not a game. It's a means to achieve an ends, and all that matters is victory.

I frankly am overjoyed by the US's growing military and technological dominance. It leads to less deaths, both civilian and military.

Ah, and does anyone know what exactly Russia's Indian Fleet is composed of? Sino mentioned it, but I can't find more specifics on the net.

I wouldn't think very many ships. If Russia was as bad off when you picked it up as I have been lead to believe, it won't be easy to throw a bundle of some kind of new capital ship in the Bay of Bengal and expect them to go un-sunken for very long.

For my part anyhow, France isn't terribly threatening. After all, Hindustan could swallow all the Holy League nations and have millions of citizens left over...perhaps if Russia joined their ranks it would be more difficult, but a Holy League victory in such a conflict would be a long shot. If unified China was recruited into the Holy League's ranks, it would of course be curtains.

I've always felt guilty about engaging in terribly serious arms development. On one hand, I want those thousands of tanks and AVs, but on the other hand, even though a nation one fifth of my size has them, does that make it feasible for Hindustan to have them? Hindustan relies on Beth Gellert to provide the bulk of security for the Indian Subcontinent. With a less-than-perfect economy and small military budget, the HDF is really only equipped for fighting inside Hindustan and bordering countries. Hindustan assumes that the world will act sensibly, and when it doesn't...well, there isn't much the HDF can do about it. There aren't many nations who find the Hawker Hunter and MiG-21 terrifying opponents in the air, or the Centurion and T-55 on the ground, in this day and age.

I don't know that they have an Indian Ocean fleet... and if they do in reality, I'm sure it's only because of a good relationship with India, which engages in joint exercises with the Russians. I don't see that happening in AMW. So far as I knew, the Russians just sometimes sent Pacific Fleet assets to India... an aircraft-carrying cruiser here, a mine countermeasures vessel there.

And if the Mafia has been in a position to take control of whole fleets in this reality, Russia's obviously doing even worse than in real life, and certainly hasn't a friendly India to help out.

But I don't know all that much about the Russian military these days. Hm.

Hindustan: sounds like you need a multinational body to take part in. In reality, I think that Bangladesh makes one of the largest manpower commitments to UN peacekeeping operations of any nation on earth. They have stuff all deployment ability of their own, but lots of people sitting around with nothing else to do but tred water.

I wouldn't think very many ships. If Russia was as bad off when you picked it up as I have been lead to believe, it won't be easy to throw a bundle of some kind of new capital ship in the Bay of Bengal and expect them to go un-sunken for very long.
OOC: Yes, but keep in mind I've been RPing a massive economic recovery for a few years now. But still, your point is valid. The Russian Government has concencrated most of its military budget on the airforce and army, since it has little need for global force projection, and the Lyong Rogue Fleet disaster pretty much destroyed any last vestiges of Russian naval might.

Although, we still do maintain a fairly large network of submarines.

But the state can't possibly be having an economic recovery if it has the worst organised crime problem in world history, can it? [looks confused]

Its true. But the problem is that the UN is essentially controlled by a nation that is actively plotting Hindustan's downfall, i.e. Russia, although the government doesn't know just yet. I've tried to be as involved as possible in Humanitarian endeavors, with some success, although it looks like the world might soon come crashing down on India.

But the state can't possibly be having an economic recovery if it has the worst organised crime problem in world history, can it? [looks confused]
We had the worst organized problem in history, but following a massive civil war, the Mafia has internationalized. So while it calls itself "Russian", the infestation is actually more prevalent in Southeast Asia (Thanks, Marimaia! ;) ) South America, and Africa.

LRR, I'm not "planning your downfall". The little speech Putin gave was a bit of rhetoric, but essentially Russia plots to restore its empire in order to rebuild its former might. The anti-leftist bit was capitalizing on the fact that it seems the "Revolution" is spreading around the world, and a powerful Russia can stand as a buffer against it. No invasion of India is planned, although I expect BG not to be too happy about my plans...

We had the worst organized problem in history, but following a massive civil war, the Mafia has internationalized. So while it calls itself "Russian", the infestation is actually more prevalent in Southeast Asia (Thanks, Marimaia! ;) ) South America, and Africa.

LRR, I'm not "planning your downfall". The little speech Putin gave was a bit of rhetoric, but essentially Russia plots to restore its empire in order to rebuild its former might. The anti-leftist bit was capitalizing on the fact that it seems the "Revolution" is spreading around the world, and a powerful Russia can stand as a buffer against it. No invasion of India is planned, although I expect BG not to be too happy about my plans...

Well, I wouldn't expect that your little adventure into Eastern Europe will go unopposed. Of course...you could go the Bonstock approach and just invade, promising that you won't kill everybody if they join your empire, the French approach, where you install a fradulent and corrupt puppet regime and then step in to save it, or the Diplomatic approach, where you annex territories as opposed to actually invading them and taking them by force.

This last technique wins you the most friends and maximizes legitimacy...

Well, I wouldn't expect that your little adventure into Eastern Europe will go unopposed. Of course...you could go the Bonstock approach and just invade, promising that you won't kill everybody if they join your empire, the French approach, where you install a fradulent and corrupt puppet regime and then step in to save it, or the Diplomatic approach, where you annex territories as opposed to actually invading them and taking them by force.

This last technique wins you the most friends and maximizes legitimacy...
The third approach would be best, but it would be godmodding to say that they simply bowed down to my take over. That kind of worked in Kazakhstan, but that was just because of Kazakhstan's unique situation (practically a vassal state in RL anyway, corrupt former regime, lack of nationalism, heavy Russian population).

And technically, the Algerians elected the puppet regime. It's just he didn't announce he was going to give up the nation to France until it was too late...

So I'll probably go for the "liberator" approach, since most of the nations I'm invading are woefully corrupt and only resemble democracies on the surface.(Even Poland, which seems like an honest democracy on the outside, is held by corrupt criminal interests...) Of course, I'll mix in a healthy dose of Russian nationalist propaganda (may work in Estonia and Latvia), anti-communist propaganda, humanitarianism, and the Bonstock approach. Of course, I need someone to RP these nations.

I know war isn't supposed to be "Fair" or "sporting", but NS is a GAME.

Still, I take your point about Maxim Guns seeming to be a huge advantage over Natives with Spears in the 19th Century. But when you're talking about two Modern Armies fighting each other, there needs to be some balance.

I do see your point about there potentially being an Arms Gap between the Big Players in AMW and everyone else, but in some respects thats true even today- I mean, the Australian Army could beat the crap out of the Zimbabwean Army, but they're not likely to have any reason to do so anytime soon...

Oh, sorry Royce. I didn't know you were referencing it in context of NS. And with life the way it is, I would wager to say tomorrow's headline will be:

"Australian Army Beats The Crap Out Of Zimbabwan Army"

Quite right. Though Australia doesn't have the level of democracy that Beth Gellert has, so I wouldn't be too surprised if the Igovian people decide to march against Mugabe after this :) (possibly because we won't have the economic capacity spare after fighting France to go and remove more powerful despots).

Anyway, yeah, it's a game more than a race, and we have to play wins and defeats and pointless tangents and jolly well enjoy them :)

The isolationist policy of the Vietnamese Government ensures that the Socialist Republic remains detatched but observant of the unfolding events in Asia & the Pacific.

Cont. from IC thread: ...This may not end up being important, either, as I hope to RP through it, but I've been a little unsure about the general preparedness of little New Caledonia... I don't imagine that they really had time to dig the massive earthwork defences up half a coast, with a population of a few hundred thousand, and to support a big elite military corps on the island, of natives in the main, but thus far I've played it that we could of course have under-estimated the task; thus it has taken us almost two days to get off the beach where we meant to do it in minutes, and that allowed the Roycelandians time to get in and sink one of our frigates amongst other dastardly happenings. So that's okay... I think that the assets on hand will still deal perfectly well, I just wanted to have put my concerns out there now before we really smack into the French and it becomes an issue.

I hope that doesn't sound bitter or anything, I think I've been fine with accepting failures like the loss of one amongst only 30 of our entire navy's general warfare frigates, the miracle evacuation of Wallis and Futuna by New Caledonian means in the space of not more than a few days and the militarisation of a remote and peaceful part of the world to face more fire than RL Europe could muster at sea, I just want it to be commonly believed that I'm not trying to walk all over someone who wasn't expecting it without giving fair consideration.

First of all, Ft. St. Martin and New Caledonia were well garrisoned as the headquarters of the French Pacific Fleet and a vital local to boot. I made mention of Ft. St. Martin being the sister fort of Ft. St. Louis, and I thought it well understood that New Caledonia was an arsenal...it goes to figure that the island being the citadel it is, defended by multas reefs, would have had counter-invasion plans already on the table, with the resources needed to defend such posistions.

As to the French Navy. RL France is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and AMW it would not have changed all tou much. The Royal Navy, as I have mentioned a gagillion times, is an elite military corps of the Restoration government, I daresay with better and more innovative ships than I have seen elsewhere in AMW.

Consider that when France was a monarchy, under the ancien regime let alone under Napoleon, its was the greatest force of arms in continental Europe, time and again winning a series of dynastic wars, the culmination of which saw a Bourbon on the Spanish Throne---where they have remained ever since.. A synergy of Medieval attitudes combined with Industrial society de facto would be a fighting force.

I am not saying that I could stand toe to toe with the Chinese Empire, Quinntonnia, or BG in toto. However, I think you all seriously under estimate the power of Reactionary Europe.

It behoves all of you to consider that while Europe maintained its traditional paradigms, for lack of better terms, it was without doubt the most powerful bloc on Earth, making short work of the natives in India that so threatens New Caledonia today.

It behoves all of you to consider that while Europe maintained its traditional paradigms, for lack of better terms, it was without doubt the most powerful bloc on Earth, making short work of the natives in India that so threatens New Caledonia today.

But those Indians didn't have tanks, missiles, advanced fighter aircraft, one of the world's largest and best equipped navies, and enough trained soldiers plus militiamen to swallow many countries whole. The European technological advantage is much smaller, if it exists at all. I doubt The Estenlands has much force projection capability, and Wingert just threw a good deal of his army away in the Lavragerian conflict. Italy...well, better-off, but, like Spain, concerned with matters at home and lacking the numbers and ships to take on anything but poorly trained, lead, and equipped armies in the third world. Al-Ahzad is neutral.

Russia could give you a significant boost, but Putin's naval strength in the Pacific is next to nothing, especially after four of his most powerful cruisers were hijacked and sunk while attacking Lyongese forces. And we all know what happened the last time the Russians fought a major war in Central Asia...

That leaves Restoration France and Roycelandia as really the only Holy League nations with any kind of serious force projection capacity. The limit of Hindustani militarization (at the standard 4% cutoff) is in excess of 14,000,000 people. By the same standard, France's maximum militarization is 2,400,000 people. While you probably have better ships, ships don't occupy land. And the lack of aircraft carriers might begin to hurt as well if you tried an attack on the subcontinent itself.

And that's just Hindustan. With Beth Gellert, you could probably expect just as many troops with more laid-back militarization plus millions of zealous Bedgellens armed with swords and clubs.

If you dragged China into a war, given its current state as a unified entity, the Indian nations would most likely be in a very bad spot (unless, of course, we could find someone to RP the other few hundred million people in India). But still, Bedgellen, Nepalese, and Hindustani armies sit behind the most formidable natural barrier in the world, and a Xiannese invasion was thrown back previously...with only relatively few Hindustani troops plus Nepalese militiamen and soldiers. I didn't even fully commit, and Beth Gellert didn't have a man in the lines.

While Beth Gellert might have underestimated French strength and resolve to fight on New Caledonia, it not be so good for Louis if a French army were to attempt a landing anywhere along the coast of India. This isn't the 19th century, it is the 21st century. Whatever accomplishments (if you could call them such) that Louis XIV, XV, or XVI or Napoleon or King George had to their name mean next to nothing when it comes to Reactionary Europe's ability to fight wars against larger and comparably equipped former colonies.

Erm, as a minor point, I lost two ships, not four. The other two were damaged, but surrendered and have been since repaired (with a new crew, of course...the last one wasn't treated very kindly by the Putin government)

Just a minor nitpick... Roycelandia isn't part of the Holy League. In fact, Roycelandia is a very Atheist nation (Agnostic at best).

Having said that, yes, we do have rather large Force Projection capabilties if we ever decide to use them... :)

Heh, I noticed that, too.

(I'm sure that Roycelandia is, however, smart enough to consider all the possible avenues for Igovian, communist, anarchist, or other related retaliation against such deployment, however...

:D )

Oh don't worry, we have seriously considered all the angles involved, and can safely say that... what? What are you all looking at? *Hides folder labelled Operation Sea Strike* :D

Just a minor nitpick... Roycelandia isn't part of the Holy League. In fact, Roycelandia is a very Atheist nation (Agnostic at best).

Having said that, yes, we do have rather large Force Projection capabilties if we ever decide to use them... :)

But you are still pretty cozy with France...

And AC, I thought the other two Kirovs were seized by the Lyong authorities.

No, I wisely surrendered to the Quinntonians. And they didn't react when I sent the ships home, so...

It's not like it matters. The ships weren't rogue; the crew was. And the crew...was taken care of.

Hey, I have to take issue here with Russia's suddenly appearing copy of a Beddgelen nuclear attack submarine. You can't build one of those over night if you know how, let alone design one, get it right, build it, and deploy it over night. It just looks like a really cheap device... a deus ex machina to be overly nice about it... that would be better in a cheesy shoot em up than in AMW. Or in a more jovial Mr.T-heavy RP than somebody else's thread.

Now, we did give the Russians military aid for a time (until we made off with the Burans and An-225s), but that was geared to renovating their neglected factories and updating their production practices to account for the post-Soviet decay. Most Igovians were hopeful that such steps coupled with Putin's talk of democracy would lead him to accommodate the large leftist population rather than reacting with force to old Soviets, but that turned out to be wishful thinking. Still, we prefered not to have the Russians melting away before Quinntonian competition, and felt that it was best to have Russian ideas continuing in the arms industry too. Certainly we never said, here, just look at our nuclear attack submarines and build them in your outdated yards, rather here, let us show you some new production techniques and fund their implimentation so you can continue to build your own world-beating vessels without them falling apart and leaking nuclear waste everywhere.

I suppose that it might be possible to attempt some sort of mimicry, but serious inspection will surely reveal that this isn't a unique-to-BG Anunkai Class nuclear attack sub.

OOC: I know it's only a superficial mimicry...However, radar signatures, and basic appearance can be fairly easily mimicked. (I think...)

Which is why I blew the thing to hell...It's a bit hard to analyze a submarine after it's been torn to smithereens...Especially with a nuclear reactor onboard.

I was really looking forward to torturing those poor Russians and killing them off to find the perpetrator. Guess that will be another day.

I might just have Beddgelens, East Islandians work with the Chinese to investigate on the submarine incident, especially when BG will deny the submarine as theirs and it did happen rather close to East Islandia.

The Chinese ships that were shot at were escorting refugee ships who have French AND Igovian troops. Unless they were that deperate, bad communication, or so on, I don't think they would attack their own kin.

OOC: Well, I wasn't specifically targetting refugee vessels. I guess I was too vague, but I fired upon the outlying ships, (there was no way I could get past the escort and into the refugee ship area) which I presumed were military vessels.

I have some very detailed questoins to ask AC and BG, concerning their weaponry and such. Im not really an expert in these things, so I dont really know that much, just enough to ask some hard questions is all.

For the most part, Russian submarines (Akula/Bars nuclear attack class) are very quiet, and very distinct. Im not sure if they use wire guided torpedoes (most submarines do nowadays) but I do know that they have cruise missile tubes. I'm pretty sure they dont have a caterpillar propulsion system (imagine a submarine engine system running on the same principle as a jet engine) but as for acoustics, the Bars class is very quiet, surprising Western intelligence services.

Now what sort of submarine does Beth Gellert (and AC) use?
What materials are used to make it? What sort of construction (double hull, etc)

What sort of weaponry does it use, and what sort of detection systems? When AC targeted and fired the torpedoes, it is likely that the submarine had to "go active" or use its active sonar, rather than its passive. In that case, it would have been easy to pick up on the submarine's location, and with luck, perhaps the sonar in use could have been identified.

What sort of acoustic signature? (or you could say what it looks like and the such)

I know that these questions are very detailed, so you dont have to answer all of htem, just the important ones (materials, weaponry, appearance).

Their active sue of sonar was how the Chinese ships turned their attention toward the submarine and had released decoys.

I have some very detailed questoins to ask AC and BG, concerning their weaponry and such. Im not really an expert in these things, so I dont really know that much, just enough to ask some hard questions is all.

For the most part, Russian submarines (Akula/Bars nuclear attack class) are very quiet, and very distinct. Im not sure if they use wire guided torpedoes (most submarines do nowadays) but I do know that they have cruise missile tubes. I'm pretty sure they dont have a caterpillar propulsion system (imagine a submarine engine system running on the same principle as a jet engine) but as for acoustics, the Bars class is very quiet, surprising Western intelligence services.

Now what sort of submarine does Beth Gellert (and AC) use?
What materials are used to make it? What sort of construction (double hull, etc)

What sort of weaponry does it use, and what sort of detection systems? When AC targeted and fired the torpedoes, it is likely that the submarine had to "go active" or use its active sonar, rather than its passive. In that case, it would have been easy to pick up on the submarine's location, and with luck, perhaps the sonar in use could have been identified.

What sort of acoustic signature? (or you could say what it looks like and the such)

I know that these questions are very detailed, so you dont have to answer all of htem, just the important ones (materials, weaponry, appearance).
OOC: Well, first of all, I have to admit my knowledge of submarines is scant. I simply saw an opportunity, and seized it, but I'm not going to go around pretending to be a sub expert.

The submarine I made is an imitation of a Bedgellen sub. It has been crafted for a while, (since our military cooperation gave us some basic idea of their tech---nothing specific, but enough to make a decent mimic. Of course, they can go around and do the same...) and is designed to imitate a Bedgellen sub to all onlookers. The acoustic signature, the outside hull, and active radar are all as similiar as possible to the bedgellen designs. The inside, is made as close in resemblance to Bedgellen subs as possible (if photos exist), but those parts that are not known are simply made as generically as humanely possible. The crafters of the sub made damned sure that even if the Bedgellen ploy failed, nothing on the sub would be distinctly Russian.

I'm still doubting the likelihood of Russia having managed a reasonable copy of an Anunkai Class submarine, which would presumably take years to achieve, turning up on the spur of the moment to launch an attack in the South Pacific, but I suppose that's now a mute point.

Beddgelen military submarines are presently three fold. There's sixty Hound Class D/E submarines originating under the Principality back in the late '60s and confined to Indian coastal waters and the Bay of Bengal. Dra-pol also operates a number of these, and in Beth Gellert they're about to be phased out of service for a long-awaited replacement born of what has yet been identified only as, "Project 5", and sold to all sorts of people that the reactionary world doesn't want to have submarines :)

There's seven Liopleurodon ferox Class SSBNs of which two or three are at sea at a given time, and none of which are terribly likely to venture into the Coral Sea or any other relatively shallow waters... they're stuffed full of perhaps so many as ninety nuclear warheads of various yields and at well over twenty thousand tons they're some of the biggest subs ever built.

The subs involved in the South Pacific were two squadrons (sixteen hulls) of our 64-strong fleet of Anunkai Class SSGNs. 102m long, just under eight thousand tons submerged, maximum dive depth said to be around 600m, they're probably pretty distinctive vessels. They have four bow and two stern 517mm heavy torpedo tubes (which no other nation has ever had access to) for Type 1-B MKII torpedoes, Qian Wei ASMs (of partly Drapoel origin), and new Charioteer ASMs; and eight operational VLS silos for Mangonel cruise missiles, again unique to BG.
They've a single shaft driven by a nuclear reactor of course, and often engage their good electric motor for 5knots silent running.
They're quite new designs, having resulted in the last couple of years from a programme only really brought together at design stage well into the '80s.
They have been criticised in the Commonwealth for being too slow, at just 24knots maximum underwater speed but are said to be comfortable, reliable, and quiet in compensation.

Needless to say, if an Anunkai attacked, it would likely do it with seven partners in regional support and with some giving supersonic missile from from over two hundred kilometres away just to shake things up...

OOC:We could always sweep this under the rug like the ones before..lol

Wouldnt it be more fun to investigate and then perhaps strike back at AC for attempting to start a war? After all, he did nearly wreck one of my submarines in the process.

Should we start a new thread about this submarine incident? it hardly seems fair to use BG and Elkazors thread.

Wouldnt it be more fun to investigate and then perhaps strike back at AC for attempting to start a war? After all, he did nearly wreck one of my submarines in the process.

Should we start a new thread about this submarine incident? it hardly seems fair to use BG and Elkazors thread.
OOC: Yes, but I could pin it on rogue military officials, so I have something to fall back on. Besides, I did my damned hardest to cover it up, so even if it is found not to be Igovian, it'll be hard to trace to Russia. Even then, it's not implausible that a Russian sub could find its way to the black market.

Anyway, if Xiaguo decides to press me on this...Well, I can always have my agents 'discover' the fact that they paid for the Moscow Bombing...

OOC:Unfortunately, the guy who ordered the assasination sttempt is missing or has been killed during the Chinese War to save the Federation.

There is no official nation named Xiaguo, and besides, the assasination was targetting Liu. And if you find out, we can, 1. Pay reparations, or 2.Cold War, 3. Imediate war

Same goes for the Submarine attack. If we get to break your shield, the treaty will be voided, and the Chinese and East islandians are able to demand reparations.

OOC: Well. It'll be interesting to see you try...

yea why not? nothing bad with trying and besides, AC just nearly sank one of my subs and spewed toxic waste near my waters. I suppose my nation should be angry, so I dont think they'll let it slide.

besides, im up for some submarine warfare.

So i guess we'll make a new thread about this problem.

yea why not? nothing bad with trying and besides, AC just nearly sank one of my subs and spewed toxic waste near my waters. I suppose my nation should be angry, so I dont think they'll let it slide.

besides, im up for some submarine warfare.

So i guess we'll make a new thread about this problem.
Submarine warfare? With whom? I'm not willing to go into more conflict. So I doubt you'll find a willing submarine to combat...

Ah well, this might be fun. A little cat-and-mouse...You think you can defeat me so easily, detective? MWA HA HA...(Curls waxed mustache...)

Who knows? But since ur navy is one who cant forge a submarine very well, theres always a chance. And besides, we'll have to return the favor and perhaps wage a covert war.

Or mayb not...stupid finals.. god i hate skool...not ending soon enough.

Judging from your spelling and grammar, EI, I wouldn't be so keen to be done with school... ;-)

HA ha. Too bad internet grammar is different from real life grammar.