NationStates Jolt Archive

Before anyone starts, I had this thing in development since late november so I'm not just thinking this up and running along the latest SD trend.

I just need some oppinions on this thing before I launch it.

Edit: I'll probably get Praetonia to draw me a pic(if he isn't busy) or maybe SB.

Edit2: Downgraded guns to 25' and added another five guns.

Edit3: Put on another two turrets, added another three guns to make quadruple turrets possible. Increased speed by 11 knots, decreased max speed by 8 knots.

Increased tonnage from 1.550.000 to 2.290.000.

Decreased draught to 22 meters.

Edit4: Decreased marine compliment from 3000 to 1100

Added two outriggers to make this a trimaran design.

Added loading cranes, wire loading systems and loading systems within the ship itself for fast storage.

Emperor class Super Dreadnought.

Length: 950.6 m; Beam: 260.5 m; Draught: 22 m
Displacement: 2.290.000 tons.
Complement: 4560 ( including 490 officers), 150 aircrew (including 25 officers), 1100 Royal Marines (including 150 officers) and 120 Royal Navy Stormtroopers.(no officers)
Helicopter deck: 80x80
Aircraft: 9 x VTOL capable aircraft or 12 helicopters, hangar space for twelve fighter sized aircraft.

Armament: 52 x Testudo CIWS 30 mm guns.
46 x 130mm Fast Fire Naval Guns in dual turrets
400 x Balista VLS cells
16 x ASW/ASM torpedo launcher
28 x 25' inch ETC guns(4 guns per turret)
Armour: 1250mm composite armour, deck and hull
1350mm composite armour, turrets and belt
1590mm composite armour, reactors and munitions storages
Kevlar netting around all vital area's to stop shrapnel/bunker busters
Armoured bulkheads
Reinforced keel
Void spaces
Torpedo belt
Countermeasures:
12 x Towed Nixie torpedo decoy
60 x Thales ECM units
98 x DRD noisemaker dispenser
Sensors: TACCOM battlefield awareness system; Sonar, tracking radar, surface sweep radar.
Propulsion: 12 x Pebblebed nuclear reactor powering eight high pressure waterjets.
Speed: 28 knots cruise speed, 30 max speed

Price: 359 billion, not for sale to the general public unless you sell me your soul.

Bump, updated it a bit.

OOC: My sense is that the draught/draft is a bit high for the class. I'd drop that by about 10 m. Displacement may be a bit light (considering the Doujin Mk. II is probably in the 1.8 million ton range and probably should be closer to 2 million tons.)

Quadruple turrets are problematic in terms of issues such as fire control and spacing on the turret itself, but quintruple turrets are even worse. I'd drop it down to triples and use no more than 15 of those big guns.

That cruising speed looks awfully slow, especially with 12 Pebblebed nuclear reactors. I'd consider upping the cruising speed by at least 10 to 12 knots.

Besides the kevlar, what kind of armour are you using?

Currently checking if I can rip Praetonia's armour composite, otherwise I'll go have to think one up myself, the horror.

[OOC: Ack, no ripping!

Anyway, I agree more or less with Sarz (as I said over AIM) although I dont think the Draft / whatever has to be cut that much. The Scharnhorst has a draft of 9.9m, so 10m for an SD is pushing it a little.

I agree on the cruising speed and displacement (nuclear engines generally provide cruising and max speeds very close to each other, whereas deisel / coal / oil provides cruising speeds significantly lower than the max), but 15 big guns isn't very many, especially since this is comparable in size to the Doujin yet does not carry a full airwing, nor does it carry as big guns (the Doujin also carries 20 guns). If anything, I'd drop the calibre and increase the number of guns as I outlined voer AIM.

Sarz is also right about the turrets though. It's always best to use as many turrets as possible (remember 1 shell in the right place can destroy a turret and take all the guns mounted therein out of action). Sadly, displacement and space requirements almost never allow anything below double turrets, unless you want to mount relatively few guns. Still, quintuple turrets is pushing a lot, so I'd go for either triples or quadruples. THe Doujin uses quadruples, and I think they're your best bet despite the inherent problems, but whatever.]

OOC: I actually didn't say cut it TO 10 m. I said to cut it BY 10 m, which would drop it to 22 m.

[OOC: Ah, sorry, misunderstanding. That's about right.]

OOC: Hey, no worries. Between us, we'll probably get it right. :D

Do please remember to submit to the big chart thread if and when you get an image.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=395472

Updated, will look at chart.

Check Edit3 for updates and can somebody atleast suggest an armour scheme or some way to fork up my own?(weakness of mine)

The design, as for now this is not a trimaran SD, since I find them rather vunerable and overused.(altough one of the best forms)
For firing I'm currently looking at using huge stabiliisation fins at both sides of on the hull under every turret but I'll have to check if its possible.

OOC: Not having this as a trimaran design means you'll sacrifice stability and seaworthiness. It's possible that the recoil from a 25" gun could shake a poorly-built monohull apart from firing its OWN gun. Besides that, a monohulled ship with that much displacement would essentially waddle in the water and you want something that can get away if it needs to.

I think you would be able to up the maximum speed back to around 35 or 36 knots if you made this a trimaran.

You might want to use a composite with steel, aluminum (which is used in a lot of NS designs these days), and titanium for starters. Other options include enhanced ERA, ballistic ceramics, or even depleted uranium. Besides pure armour, you can get added protection and stability with hardened crossbeams installed across bulkheads. Also look into using void spaces for additional protection.

The archenemy of many of these behemoths IRL would be a submarine, particularly a very stealthy one that can fire torps at your ship if they get past escorts. To protect against that, you're going to want your ship double-bottomed and perhaps add to that a reinforced keel.

OOC: Not having this as a trimaran design means you'll sacrifice stability and seaworthiness. It's possible that the recoil from a 25" gun could shake a poorly-built monohull apart from firing its OWN gun. Besides that, a monohulled ship with that much displacement would essentially waddle in the water and you want something that can get away if it needs to.

I think you would be able to up the maximum speed back to around 35 or 36 knots if you made this a trimaran.

You might want to use a composite with steel, aluminum (which is used in a lot of NS designs these days), and titanium for starters. Other options include enhanced ERA, ballistic ceramics, or even depleted uranium. Besides pure armour, you can get added protection and stability with hardened crossbeams installed across bulkheads. Also look into using void spaces for additional protection.

The archenemy of many of these behemoths IRL would be a submarine, particularly a very stealthy one that can fire torps at your ship if they get past escorts. To protect against that, you're going to want your ship double-bottomed and perhaps add to that a reinforced keel.

*joda voice* Point by point answer type shall I.

1) Trimaran design will be avoided until the last, I’ll stick with the stabiliser fins until someone can really show me they don’t work.

2) This won’t be poorly built, its been under construction for a decade now so we’ve taken our time to test things out and come back on mistakes.

3) Composite will probably be; majority high grade steel, aluminum and reinforced with depleted uranium. Just gimme some feedback on this.

4) Void spaces, reinforced keel, hardened crossbeams are all things already implemented here. Same goes for the torpedo belt below the surface of the water. The Kevlar is also used to catch and entangle bunker busting bombs alongside the fact that most rooms underneath the deck are void spaces. So the Kevlar will tangle and ensnare the bomb, it’ll probably explode in the void space causing minimal damage.

5) And trust me, if a submarine can get past my ASW screen its not going to sink this SD.

OOC: Aye! Don't yield to the evil! Monohulls forever! :)

Regarding the actual ship for a mo, I wouldn't worry about speed overmuch myself. All right, so it's not going to be as agile as a trimaran hulls. In most battles, agility doesn't matter much; heck, even in 1916, agility didn't matter much, let alone today. Frankly, with guided missiles flying and guided torpedoes running about everywhere, you need speed less than you need armour and hull strength. If I were you, I'd happily drop the speed by four or five knots if it meant more space for protection, a la the Nelson class (power before Washington: 164,000 SHp; power after Washington: 45,000 SHp, as I recall).

Gunnery-wise, I'd possibly go for a 24in rather than a 25in, and not worry too much about the numbers. It doesn't much matter how many guns you've got, a 24in shell is going to hurt anyway. More guns merely add topweight, force more cramped stowage of ammunition, and impede speaces which could be turned to better account in superior machinery or protection. Seven turrets will as likely as not do more harm than good (with regard to recoil forces, ammunition stowage, disruption of internal arrangements, topweight and so forth) especially with quad turrets. Incidentally, I'd go with triples or duals. Quads tend to give very high shot dispersion at long range, and are usually very complex to maintain due to high numbers of anti-flash interlocks and so forth, as well as being more cramped.

So I'll be forced to strip down the calibre even more, drop the amount of guns, at this rate I won't HAVE an SD left...considering this thing is bigger then a Doujin but is going to be way less combat capable its going to look more like a kilometre long barge with super structure and a CIWS.

Bump

OOC: Don't worry too much about DPUO. He hates SDs.

I mean <.< >.>

*disappears in a puff of smoke*

She's pretty wide for her length...I'd add some length - of course the width is going to help keep her from flipping when you fire those big guns.

I'd consider lengthening the barrels of the big guns, but dropping the cal. down to 20". That'll give you range, while maintaining the awesome kick.

You'll also want to consider the storage on this ship. Keeping enough ammo and blackpowder to feed all those guns is going to be a trial - let alone food to feed the massive crew and marine units.

One solution would be to always sail her with a fast-supply ship. But, I'd suggest that without that ship, you'll have to reduce the number of guns or missiles. If you use a fast-supply, you'll want to add a crane and elevator to make re-supplies quick.

Another thought I've had, that I'm adding to my BB's is to install horizontal launchers for some anti-ship missiles [I use Sunburns...but then you know that all too well don't you? ;) ]. A horizontal launch will give the sea-skimming missile the added advantage of avoiding a launch bloom several hundred feet in the air - the bloom would disperse at water level at launch.

Here's a cut-away of an Iowa that might help you.

http://www.battleship.org/images/cutaway.gif

Powder *drops sack of cordite and gun cotton on Wolfish*

Black powder?!!?

At BB engagement ranges the only horizontal missile launchers I would install are light multi tasked interceptor systems like the hypersonic shorts Starstreak or some of the new Ratheon interceptors with roles against air craft and incoming munitions. Everything else would be VLS. It not only lowers your need for super structure and vessels signature but allows the munitions to be stored in a more survivable manner and while the IR plume of launch will be visible I don't believe the difference be enough to justify horizontal non space efficient systems.

Horizontal cold launched missile munitions and especially sea skimmers carry too high a failure rate, and when they go hot from vertical launch plume or lateral launch plume is quite unlikely to hide the vessel (especially of this scale) or the munition, on another point most if not all horizontal launches are direct "hot" launches. Both cold launch methods will give you at best only a few extra seconds before the enemy reads hostile fire, missile plumes will not disperse near sea spray nominally any quicker than a vertical launch and though the horizon will obscure it high level observation which is a given in a modern battle field will still detect it. If your skimming close enough for the water to actually absorb the plume to a large degree you won't be skimming you will be skipping in any form of heavy chop.

I don't see it as a reasonable tactical decision to carry a large number of horizontal launch units with heavy counter shipping capacity.

I agree with wolfish that the very large marine compliment is disturbing and your crew numbers are a wee touch high even for the size of vessel and given said size hiding its location via cold launch is very doubtful.

For really fast resupply I would suggest a modular unit with blast doors set lower in your hull and stowed cranes and possibly even cable link points, though only useable to its fullest in calm chop its limitations are similar to any heavy cargo transfer at sea and when it is in optimal conditions the transfer should take a much shorter period.

OOC: Don't worry too much about DPUO. He hates SDs.

I mean <.< >.>

*disappears in a puff of smoke*

Yes, yes I do, because they're very large unwieldy targets. I'm no man of the jeune ecole, but the SD is a pretty pointless exercise in Yamato-ing: building a few super-ships where it would be more effective in terms of enforcing national policy and of naval combat to build more, less capable vessels.

I'm also not exactly sure you could fit that many huge guns, even on a ship this size, and expect it to withstand the recoil or the shock of firing for long.

28x 25" guns is a similar armament to the Doujin's 20x 30" guns, and they are roughly of the same size. The Doujin, however, carries a full air-wing on top of that. I agree though that this should certainly be a trimaran, or it'll probably break up in firing, or become extremely unstable.

Well I'll keep the current armament, add four outriggers to(front and rear) it and install a rather big crane so that I can lift most goods off a supply ship from one of the outriggers. I think that including VTOL transports, the loading cranes and the cable systems I can reload this entire thing in under an half an hour.(if I use four supply ships on each outrigger, sure thats gona be hell but thats what I have Black Steel for)

I had a rather nasty idea for this SD but I'll drop that since most of you will either point and laugh or just drop dead. So I'll reduce the amount of marines to two battalions(1100).