NationStates Jolt Archive

NOTE: This weapon system and the testing is secret IC. This is being done for declaratory purposes...

The night air was cold. Rain was falling all over the northeast. Flash flood watches were in effect throughout the entirity of New York and its surrounding states. At Griffiss Air Force Base, just east of Rome, New York, the main runway was busy. Security had swept the base and everything within visual range of the runway. A full sweep of the atmosphere showed no satellites over the area for another two hours and then another window of two hours only two hours after that. Mission time was just under an hour.

Sitting on the runway was a single bomber, a B-7A Incubus. It was the biggest, heaviest, and most powerful stealth bomber of the Imperial Layartebian Air Force. She weighed 160,000 pounds empty and could lift up to 650,000 pounds. Internal fuel was 265,000 pounds and on it, she could fly up to 10,500 nautical miles combat and 14,000 nautical miles ferry. But, because of the size of the bomber, she was limited to G limits of -1 and +4. She was powered by eight engines, each with afterburner, producing 560,000 pounds of thrust, able to push the beast to a speed of 2,500 miles per hour at altitude and 1,520 miles per hour at sea level and an altitude of 125,000 feet. The aircraft was a triangle to a point and then its wings took a steep turn outward. A pair of vertical fins in the back turned inward and were inside the two engine ports, each with four engines, able to push the aircraft upwards at 40,000 feet per minute. 180 feet long, 120 feet wide, and 36 feet high, she could lift a 200,000 pound armament load in five internal bomb bays. The five internal bomb bays were situated with three down the centerline with the other two outside of the front bay. The two outboard bays were for air to air munitions, up to 7,500 pounds per bay. Inside these bays, they could carry eight AIM-9 Sidewinders and eight AIM-120 AMRAAM or AIM-179 BVRAAM missiles. The sixteen missiles in total were situated so that eight were facing forward and eight were facing aft. The centerline bays, on the other hand, were strictly limited to air to ground munitions. The forward and aft bays could hold up to 60,000 pounds each and the center bay could hold 65,000 pounds. This enabled it to carry up to 36 bombs of 4,500 pounds, 72 bombs of 2,000 pounds, 108 bombs of 1,000 pounds, 216 bombs of 500 pounds or 432 bombs of 250 pounds. In addition, the bomber could carry up to 24 cruise missiles. Defensive systems onboard included the most powerful jamming package available. It was more powerful than that of the E-6B Prowler or EF-111A Raven, allowing it to jam all types of radar from pulse to continuous wave to frequency hop to stealth. In addition, it also included a passive jammer. Active jamming would give away the stealth of the bomber so a passive jammer was required. Infrared suppression systems worked to reduce the external heat signature by 1000 percent. If all else failed, she was equipped with 1,320 bundles of chaff and 1,320 flares but such should not be necessary as the bomber had a radar signature of some 0.0009 square feet. The bomber was the mainstay of the ILAF with 200 nuclear A models built and 400 conventional B models built, at $450M per aircraft.

Sitting on the runway was the fifth B-7A to be build. It was flown by a crew of 5. Pilotting the aircraft was Major Marko and Major Stratus. In charge of the defensive systems was Major Dunlow. In charge of the navigation systems was Captain Johnson. In charge of the offensive systems was Captain Willis. Major Marko and Major Stratus had previously flown B-1B Lancers, both of them having significant combat experience, a requirement for the B-7 crew. Given the secrecy of the B-7, its crews were extremely trained and well trusted. They carried the highest level of classification and lived in small communities built for them by the government.

"Sabre 425. You are cleared for take-off. Good luck sir!"

"Roger that tower. We're go for take-off." Major Marko smiled and pushed four of the throttles forward. 280,000 pounds of thrust was enough to get the aircraft into the air and cut down on fuel. The full complement of eight would be used to push the aircraft to altitude where only four would be necessary to sustain speed and altitude. The afterburners on the four engines lit and produced a blue trail as the jet assaulted down the runway. "What's the speed?"

"Passing eighty. We can take off at one forty-two with this load."

"Roger that."

"One twenty...One thirty-five...One forty...One forty-five..."

"Ten degrees up!" They both pulled back on the flight sticks, not unlike that of the B-1B Lancer. As the B-7A lifted off the ground and into the air, they pushed the other four throttles to maximum. Within eight seconds, the other four engines dropped out their afterburners and the plane rocketed upward. "Gear up. Flaps normal. Fifty degrees up. We're going to eighty-five thousand."

"Roger that." The gear retracted and the flaps centered as the B-7A rocketed upwards past thirty degrees to fifty degrees up. They ascended rapidly. "Alright we're at angels eighty-five. Let's throttle back and assume course."

"Roger that. Navigation, what's the heading?"

"Come to course one-eight-four. Speed at eighteen hundred."

"Alright. Let's turn her." Gracefully, the B-7A turned to the starboard, still accelerating. Once it was heading southward, four of the engines were cut and the acceleration slowed, pushing the bomber just up to eighteen hundred miles per hour. The engines were throttled back and the aircraft gracefully flew southward.

Inside the center bay was the single missile she carried, an XAGM-192A-T Dreamcatcher. The missile was the newest air to ground missile, however, it was more of an air launched ballistic missile. The A model was set to carry a single W103A fusion warhead, equal to five megatons. The B model would carry a single W108A Cobalt-60 warhead while the C model would carry a single W100A EMP warhead. The W108A Cobalt-60 warhead carried with it 33 pounds of Cobalt-60, enough to wipe out a significant portion of life. The W100A EMP warhead created an electromagnetic pulse equal to that of a one megaton bomb. The missile was unique and large. Weighing in at 24,000 pounds, the missile was 30 feet long, 3 feet in diameter, and had a 5.5 foot wingspan. It was a three stage weapon, able to engage targets between 100 and 3,000 miles using GPS to drop to within 30 feet of the target.

The target was a bunker facility inside Colombia, about two hundred miles south-southeast of Bogotá. From the launch point near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, that put the target at roughly 2,750 miles away. Flight time to the launch point was around ten minutes. It was imperative for them to arm and set the target coordinates for the missile inflight and they had to act fast. Captain Willis was in charge of that. He took out his flight mission profile folder and brought up the missile overlay screen on his panel. He could set any parameter of the missile he wanted through this overlay but instead would just use the default trajectory. The missile would gather the launch coordinates based on the launch but the strike coordinates would have to be input. Captain Willis entered them and ran a quick diagnostic to see if the systems of the missile were functioning properly. The test came back okay. This missile would only be armed with a dummy warhead.

Captain Willis accounted for the thirty-foot margin of error on the missile and was ready to fire it six minutes before the launch point. Resting comfortably in the bay, the missile was painted black, to blend in with the night. It was solid fueled, using gel fuel. Sixty seconds from the target the bay doors were opened. They slid open rather than opening downward, minimizing drag. "Alright sir. We're thirty seconds from the launch point."

"Roger that. We're good to go."

"Missile is armed and ready."

"Excellent." Major Marko watched the countdown clock on his HUD. He had flipped up the plastic cover on the thumb trigger on his flight stick and the red button glowed. This meant that there was an armed weapon, ready for launch, meeting every launch requirement. "Ten...Nine...Eight...Seven...Six...Five...Four...Three...Two..." The time was here and he was ready. "Weapon released." He pushed the button and the holding clamps disengaged. The cylindrical missile descended but something was unusual about it. The first stage consisted of a revolving tail, its three fins spinning at a rate of 60 revolutions per minute. The missile descended slowly, the rate of gravity, 32 feet per second per second. After four seconds, the missile was well underneath the aircraft and suddenly the rotating tail gyro stopped. Another second went by and the rocket motor ignited. The blue flame from the rear of the missile was hot, very hot. It pushed the missile to a speed of 3,000 miles per hour within a matter of seconds, allowing it to pass underneath and in front of the bomber. The crew saw this and smiled. "Retracting bay doors. Turning to home. What's the heading?"

"Sir, one zero eight. Maintain altitude and speed."

"Roger that." The missile began its ascent phase. The first stage was responsible for this and it drove the missile upwards to an altitude of 300 miles at a speed of some 6,500 miles per hour. It took three minutes to reach that altitude, the duration of the first stage. At that altitude, the first stage dropped off and the missile began its midcourse phase. The would bring it to within fifty miles of the target. At this altitude, the second stage accelerated the missile to a speed of 9,500 miles per hour. The missile careemed through the upper atmosphere for 2,500 miles. The midcourse phase took just under sixteen minutes. By that time, the B-7A would be making its landing descent and slowing down to a mere three hundred miles per hour.

After fifteen minutes, the second stage disengaged. Now there was just the missile's nosecone. In the nosecone were three parts, the guidance system, the warhead, and a third stage rocket with a thrust vector system. The nozzle would move 60° downwards and push the missile downward towards its target, to a near 90° trajectory. Once the missile on the correct trajectory, the rocket would engage fully and provide enough thrust to push the last stage to 15,000 miles per hour. From 300 miles down to the target it would take 72 seconds. The missile was equipped with 3 modes: contact, airburst, or burial. If it were in contact mode, the warhead would explode on contact. If it were on airburst mode, it would explode at the optimum burst height. For burial mode, the missile would bury itself 200 feet into the ground and explode there. For this test, the weapon was on contact mode but there was no warhead to detonate. Instead, a small charge inside the missile would simply caused it to break apart.

The weapon broke through the atmosphere and created a trail of fire with it, something that unfortunately just could not be avoided. But, moving at 22,000 feet per second, the warhead would be next to impossible to destroy. With a sonic boom loud enough to shatter a tree in half, the missile slammed into the ground, twenty-four feet from the target and broke apart. Fragments dug into the ground and throughout the area.

The missile test was a resounding success. There was nothing more to do but place the missile into service and keep its existence hidden, should it be needed.

tag

(very nice)

Thank you. It's modelled after a RL missile with elements of an ICBM warhead in there as well (namely the re-entry stage).

Layartebian News Network

"Earlier this evening, a meteor impacted some two hundred miles to the south-southwest of Bogotá, Colombia. Military officials were quick to respond citing that they had seen it on radar but deemed it harmless. They say the size of the meteor was in the realm of a baseball. The firestreak was seen from Bogotá. In addition, residents of Pittsburgh reported seeing the meteor enter the Earth's atmosphere above the city."

The Emperor turned off the news station. "General, I am impressed. I'll have to commend you on this one. The XAGM-192 is ready for service, no?"

"Yes sir it is. We're planning on fielding 500 of each version sir."

"Very well. That is satisfactory. Should there be a conventional version though?"

"Sir, we have proposed such an idea. We would be able to place a 5,000 pound warhead inside the missile."

"Very well. Shall we field 2,500 AGM-192D versions with a BLU-113?"

"I believe so sir but we'll have to adjust the accuracy. As of now it is thirty feet. We may have to hone that in a little for it sir."

"Very well. Let's make the attempt."

"Roger that sir."

http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/Graphics/Nation-States/Other/xagm-192-test.jpg
XAGM-192A-T on re-entry.

Sitting off the eastern shore of Maine, a single Twin Towers Flight II class sat in the calm seas. It was night and the ship was moving at three knots to the east. It barely kicked up any wake and was quiet, very quiet. It was there for a test. Loaded into its 8 of its 128 VLS cells were the new XRGM-193A Relic, a new (secret IC) anti-ship missile.

The test ship was a 41,000 ton, Wasp class LHD. It was for export, sold for but never accepted, making it a great candidate. Sensors had been loaded onto the ship to record just about every aspect of the event, from the impact, to the explosion, to the sinking. Given the power of the missile, its kenetic energy, and the location of the impact, the test would require only two missiles, both launched within ten seconds of each other.

Under a dense cloud of smoke, the VLS tubes opened at 2300. The first missile shot out vertically and climbed to 5,000 feet. When it was at this altitude, the missile began a downward trajectory, heading towards the waves, picking up speed. When the missile reached 250 feet from the waves, the booster would drop off, that would be five miles away from the ship. Long before this, the second missile would be launched and it would follow the same course.

The XRGM-193A Relic was a two-stage system, the booster being the first stage and the missile being the second. It weighed a total of four thousand pounds, twenty-four hundred of those being the missile. For punch, it packed an eight hundred pound, penetrating, blast-fragmentation warhead. This twenty-one and a half foot long, one and a half foot wide missile, with the booster, was the pinacle of anti-shipping technology from the Empire of Layarteb. The missile had a top speed of three and a half times the speed of sound, at sea level, and a range envelope from five to ninety-two miles. During the course of its engagement, the missile flight would be a total of four stages. The first was the launch and it put the missile moving at its top speed and a range of five miles.

The second stage of its flight was the guidance stage. Here, the missile turned on one of its three guidance systems, the active radar. A quick sweep of the missile's active radar would pick up everything within the horizon. That usually meant that a total of twenty-two miles worth of targets would be detected. At this point, the missile would adjust or stay its course, it flying now only fifteen feet above the waves. After the active-radar turned off, a ten second sweep, the missile would use its GPS guidance to lock the target, the coordinates being fed in prior to launch. The missile then entered the cruise stage, where some speed was lost. At the end of the guidance phase, the missile was sixteen miles downrange. The cruise stage would bring it to within eleven miles of the target and drop its speed to only three point three times the speed of sound. During the cruise stage, the active radar would infrequently turn on and do three sweeps, detecting possible targets or obstacles. This was done every ten miles to fifteen miles. The radar sweep would not extend over the horizon nor would it be on for too long so as to avoid being detected.

At the end of the cruise phase, when the missile was eleven miles from the target, the missile would go to its IIR guidance. At that point, the missile would acquire the target based on the GPS coordinates but without any active guidance sytem, avoiding giving away its position. As the missile then honed in on the target, it would maintain its altitude, fifteen feet above the sea waves. However, when the missile was close enough, it would dive towards the water. In actuality, the missile would travel less than four feet into the water before it contacted the hull of the ship. Instantly, the missile would penetrate and then a delayed fuse would explode within the hull of the ship, sending fragments throughout the skin, especially downward, into the bottom of the hull to allow for more holes.

Both missiles impacted the target ship ten seconds apart. The explosions were massive, sending at least twenty-thousand tungsten balls throughout the ship. The explosion would send them travelling and thousands of feet per second, up, down, left, right, and all around, turning the inside of the ship into a block of Swiss cheese. As water poured into the hull from underneath the waterline and also from underneath, as the water moved up into the ship, it began to list, severely.

Both missiles had done their job, creating enough holes in the ship to cause it to take on significant amounts of water. It didn't take more than a few minutes for the ship to have taken on enough seawater to sink. The test was a resounding success. An EP-3E Aries II monitoring the test relayed video to the command center and all of the sensors onboard the Wasp relayed their recordings as well. Within two minutes, the processing computer had enough data to compile a six hundred page report on what happened. The general rule of thumb, for this missile would be, for every twenty-five thousand tons, one missile would be used.

http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/Graphics/Nation-States/Other/xagm-193.jpg

Nice work, Layarteb. Another impressive RP to add to the collection.

I really need to work on my military. I've got all this money to spend and I have no idea what to spend it on or how to spend it.

Why thank you...

"All systems are a go sir. We have the target acquired and it is within range."

"Excellent." Lieutenant Colonel Jaxx smiled as he looked over the brief. The smoke outside was thick, thick enough to hide the launcher and the command vehicle. Inside the vehicle were seven men, including the Lieutenant Colonel. A single command vehicle could support up to ten launcher vehicles and command all of them simulatenously.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/vlmica/images/VLMica_5.jpg

The target was only sixty-four miles off shore. It was a cruiser, weighing in at only 12,500 tons. It was moving at four knots towards the shore, meaning that this strike would be done against the bow of the ship. It would require a different attack pattern, a very vulnerable one. Instead of diving into the side of the ship, the missile would have to come down through the deck, and explode deep within the ship, underneath the waterline, hopefully travelling through the bottom of the hull.

"Sir, we have good launch conditions. We could fire at any moment."

"Alright Captain." He was speaking to Captain Harvey, a veteran of the Coast Guard. He had served on a Twin Towers Flight II Class for three years. Now he was sitting in a command truck, staring at a panel, looking at a metal switch with a red, plastic, protective cover. The launch vehicle was a modified M813A1 5-ton truck and the command vehicle another M813A1 5-ton truck, modified as well. Smoke generators on both the command vehicle and the launch vehicle hid them in a deep thicket of smoke.

"Go for launch!" Lieutenant Colonel Jaxx smiled and watched as Captain Harvey lifted the plastic lid and pushed the switch forward. The queue had a single missile ready to fire and the launch would initiate its firing.

The missile boosted out instantly. The booster carried it up and out of the vertical container on the launch truck and brought the missile up to 5,000 feet, where it began its flight. The launch phase ended with the guidance phase being a phenomenal success. The cruise phase brought the missile to the target and finally, the terminal phase began. The missile climbed to 1,000 feet just before its terminal phase and then took a sharp angle down, heading at the ship at Mach 3.0 and gaining speed. It impacted at Mach 3.2, piercing through the deck of the cruiser and then downward even more. The fuse triggered after a few feet, sending fragments throughout the ship, and sending the explosion downward, through the bottom of the hull.

The EP-3E Aries II monitoring the test watched as the bow of the ship crumbled away and drew the ship in with it. Water rushed into the damaged ship and the it slowly began to sink, the bow dropping underneath the water, followed by the rest of the ship, finally making it stand almost straight up before it slipped into the waves. "Confirm, target sunk!" That was the only relay message from the EP-3E.

Today, in response to rising tensions throughout the planet, the Empire of Layarteb is initiating Operation Plan 5700. This plan calls for the intense and quick mobilization of all Layartebian forces: land, sea, and air. The plan calls for a prolonged mobilization of indefinite duration. Effective immediately, any foreign military vessel within twenty-four nautical miles of territorial waters will be immediately escorted out and any aircraft within airspace will be intercepted and escorted to international airspace.

In addition, the Empire of Layarteb is bolstering defenses around key, strategic targets, including all cities and the Panama Canal. Layartebian naval elements will be defending the canal from the sea and army units will be preparing a defensive wall to deter land attacks. Border defenses will be at high alert and will regard any troop mobilization along the border as a prelude to war and will act accordingly.

The Imperial Layartebian Military will also be placed at REDCON 3. Layartebian military units will be at increased readiness all across the board.

Panama Canal: 2209 Hours

"Lieutenant. Lieutenant. Sir. We just got the new orders."

"What's that Sergeant?"

"Sir. We're to bolster forces and we will be recieving reinforcements within the next few days."

"Roger that. Make it so then."

"Yes sir." The Sergeant rushed off. Already based at the Panama Canal was a significant number of forces. Within twenty miles was a Layartebian Air Force base and a Layartebian helicopter base. The canal was within minutes of forces in both Ynoga and South Eastern Virginia. It was overlapped by six anti-ship missile sites and three surface-to-air missile sites. Point defense was made by Predator units and Wizard missiles. M163A3 EADS anti-aircraft guns also protected the canal. A full armored division was only an hour away from the north and another one about forty minutes away from the south. Based at the canal was a full battalion of armor. In so far as infantry was concerned, there were a total of 5,184 soldiers there, a full brigade.

Reinforcements would add another brigade. In addition to the increased readiness, Layartebian fighters were on constant patrol over the canal and P-3C Orion and P-7A Orion II anti-submarine warfare aircraft were up in the air. ASW helicopters would be patrolling as well and over-the-horizon aircraft would be on station to support anti-ship missiles and advanced warning.

Today, in response to rising tensions throughout the planet, the Empire of Layarteb is initiating Operation Plan 5700. This plan calls for the intense and quick mobilization of all Layartebian forces: land, sea, and air. The plan calls for a prolonged mobilization of indefinite duration. Effective immediately, any foreign military vessel within twenty-four nautical miles of territorial waters will be immediately escorted out and any aircraft within airspace will be intercepted and escorted to international airspace.


WE're going to assume our standard agreement as to the southern portions of the Dutch Antilles still apply, ship-wise. You know, that little corridor agreement. Because if they don't, you're effectively declaring war on us by claiming sovreign naval area as your own. And for some reason, we just don't see that as your intent.

[bSamtonian Council of Thirteen[/b]

[OOC- Mind if I post some thoughts on that second post of yours, the one with the missile, in this thread? Or should I start a second thread, because this one could get cluttered up quite quickly?]

Today, in response to rising tensions throughout the planet, the Empire of Layarteb is initiating Operation Plan 5700. This plan calls for the intense and quick mobilization of all Layartebian forces: land, sea, and air. The plan calls for a prolonged mobilization of indefinite duration. Effective immediately, any foreign military vessel within twenty-four nautical miles of territorial waters will be immediately escorted out and any aircraft within airspace will be intercepted and escorted to international airspace.


WE're going to assume our standard agreement as to the southern portions of the Dutch Antilles still apply, ship-wise. You know, that little corridor agreement. Because if they don't, you're effectively declaring war on us by claiming sovreign naval area as your own. And for some reason, we just don't see that as your intent.

Samtonian Council of Thirteen

[OOC- Mind if I post some thoughts on that second post of yours, the one with the missile, in this thread? Or should I start a second thread, because this one could get cluttered up quite quickly?]

WE're going to assume our standard agreement as to the southern portions of the Dutch Antilles still apply, ship-wise. You know, that little corridor agreement. Because if they don't, you're effectively declaring war on us by claiming sovreign naval area as your own. And for some reason, we just don't see that as your intent.

Samtonian Council of Thirteen

[OOC- Mind if I post some thoughts on that second post of yours, the one with the missile, in this thread? Or should I start a second thread, because this one could get cluttered up quite quickly?]

Let me think. You renegged on our deal with the Dutch Antilles to begin with...and yes go ahead and post about the missile here.

"Sir! Sir!" The aide rushed into the Emperor's office, ignoring the closed door. "Sir! We have news on the government of IDF!"

"This had better be good. You were very rude rushing in." The Emperor looked angrily at him. "Very rude!"

"Sorry sir. But this couldn't wait. The government of IDF." He took a deep breath, winded from the running, "has descended into anarchy."

The Emperor's face lit up. "You are excused. See me in two hours. Please excuse yourself. Thank you." The Emperor picked up the whole to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. "Chairman. IDF is in anarchy. Initiate Battle Plan Indianan Resolve."

The anarchy of IDF could not have come at a better time. The government had fled twenty-one days ago and open rebellion filled the city streets. Refugees along the border were all denied access to Layarteb, of course, but now they would not need it. They would be Layartebian citizens. The mobilizations of the Layartebian military were some 40% complete but enough was done in Layarteb to launch a full scale invasion into Northern Indiana. The initial plan called for leaflets, two million of them!

They were simple and would be dropped over all major cities, not that there were many of them. Along the border, they would be posted and in small villages, they would be dropped as well. They were simple.



http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/layarteb.jpg

The Layartebian Government hears your plight!
Layartebian forces will be assuming control of Northern Indiana.
Annexation is imminent.

Please stay indoors and do not fire
upon Layartebian military personnel
or they will be forced to fire back.

We hear you and we are here to help!

Relief supplies will be made available.
For military personnel, please do not engage
our C-17A Globemaster III aircraft!
They are carrying food and medical supplies.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/transport-m/c17/c17_schem_01.gif


F/A-18C Hornets would be making the drops, carrying four bombs each. They were flying unarmed, escorted by F/A-22A Raptors and F-15C Eagles, both armed with AIM-9X Sidewinders and AIM-120D AMRAAMs, two and six each. There were significant military targets in Northern Indiana, an airbase being one of them. In light of this, ground-attack armed F-16C Falcon, F-117A Nighthawk, FB-22B Manta, and F-15E Strike Eagles were ready to go. If any movement of aircraft was observed at the airbase, bombers would take immediate action and strike the airbase.

As the F/A-18C Hornets thundered down the runways some two hours after the announcements were made, a single C-17A Globemaster III flew over Northern Indiana, some three kilometers from the airbase. It was flying alone, a very dangerous maneuver but one to not provoke response. C-17As would be dropping food & medical supplies throughout the course of the operation. They hoped this would be viewed as such. It was making a drop but of Special Forces, forty-two to be exact. They would be deploying near the airbase and then taking up reconnaissance of the airfield, directing fire if necessary.

When the ground war began, they would be joined by paratroopers and tasked with taking the airfield. That airfield was KEY!

Let me think. You renegged on our deal with the Dutch Antilles to begin with...and yes go ahead and post about the missile here.

You know damn well that deal was in the event of a joint invasion by the Roman Confederacy members. Which never got close to happening. Therefore, the deal was simply stopped in its preliminary stages.

So don't give us this tripe about reneging on the deal. You had ample warning the deal could be cancelled at any time.

Samtonian Council of Thirteen

[OOC- Seeing as I'm nowhere near the technical engineering levels needed to talk about problems in tech, I give you the various arguments of others, whose opinions I asked for after becoming stuck on one problem after another while trying to go over the thing myself. So, I hope they don't mind being quoted, and without further ado......

OTHER PEOPLE's ARGUMENTS I AM STEALING TO LOOK GOOD!!!!
(With their names given, of course)
Ug. Well, the speed and range are possible, yes.

However, firstly, guidance by ImIR and GPS alone would be very dodgy indeed. ImIR can be fooled by any heat source, and GPS satellites don't generally havr the ability to track an enemy fleet. Thus you'd have to know exactly where the enemy was before launching, and they would have to not have the slightest idea where you were to avoid your missiles being countermeasured out of effectiveness. The fact that it transmits briefly would give away its presence and position, meaning that it would alert the enemy anyway, despite the short transmission time, and the repetition of this merely serves to tell the enemy exactly where it is and what course it's following. Short ransmission time is helpful, but only if the enemy doesn't plot it, and against NS ESM systems that's by no means certain.

Second, its altitude is all wrong. Fifteen feet above the waves might work all right in a flat, calm bay, but out in the Atlantic, fifteen-foot waves are two a penny.

Third, an object hitting the water at Mach 3, no matter how well shaped, will instantly fragment on impact. It' be like hitting the ground at the same speed. There's a very good reason why ASROCs are all ballistic weapons, y'know.

Fourth, an 800lb warhead is not going to make much impression on any hull designed to withstand torpedoes.

In other words, the trajectory's wrong, the guidance is dodgy and easily tracked, the warhead inadequate, and the final attack stage simply nonsensical.


...and the impact with water, assuming the missile remains intact (as the structure to withstand water impact is different then that to turn tightly at high altitude), will slow the missile substantially. It is highly unlikely it would penetrate anything. It is also obvious L doesn't know why torpedoes are more dangerous then missiles (the incompressability of water, for one thing).

At mach 3.3, hitting a fifteen foot wave is much akin to running into a brick wall with your car at sixty mph. It is unlikely the sensor package would be of much use after several of these impacts. It is more likely the computer would be smashed or assume a wave were an impact on a ship.

Even if it were to get through - these aren't good sensor package choices for a missile of this sort. Assume a ship in a slight storm - limited to no heat. Missile is now useless.

Ah yes - and at that size, this thing stands out like a sore thumb to any AMS system. Particularly as your detection system gets to see four separations.

On THAT note - ICBMs are designed for multiple stages at high altitude. At the altitude this thing flies, you are very likely to get stage separation failure due to critical impacts with, well, water. One failed separation usually means the missile blows itself up when it boosts and the boost has nowhere to go.

Overall, I'd give it about 8% accuracy against any reasonably defended ship, with little damage from an impact as the missile would most likely explode on collision with the water, meaning you get wet not holed.


So, seeing as you clearly know what you're talking about, do give your counter arguments. I"ll muddle through them, ask for more help, and get you a reply ASAP. Or something like that. :)]

You know damn well that deal was in the event of a joint invasion by the Roman Confederacy members. Which never got close to happening. Therefore, the deal was simply stopped in its preliminary stages.

So don't give us this tripe about reneging on the deal. You had ample warning the deal could be cancelled at any time.

Samtonian Council of Thirteen

[OOC- Seeing as I'm nowhere near the technical engineering levels needed to talk about problems in tech, I give you the various arguments of others, whose opinions I asked for after becoming stuck on one problem after another while trying to go over the thing myself. So, I hope they don't mind being quoted, and without further ado......

OTHER PEOPLE's ARGUMENTS I AM STEALING TO LOOK GOOD!!!!
(With their names given, of course)




So, seeing as you clearly know what you're talking about, do give your counter arguments. I"ll muddle through them, ask for more help, and get you a reply ASAP. Or something like that. :)]

We'll work on the Antilles


NOW



DPUO

1. Guidance is active radar, GPS, and IIR. Active-radar and GPS are both employed on the latest Harpoon blocks. Basically, from the radar position, it also gets the GPS location. IIR is being used on the AGM-65F Maverick and AGM-119 Penguin. The F version of the Maverick was built for the USN to have an anti-shipping role. IIR can be jammed, yes, but it is definitely not easy. GPS coordinates are obtained from the initial tracking. Once they get a lock, it's easy to key into a satellite and find the position of the target. Then you just take speed and course into account and you get a good idea of where the target is. But then again, that's suject to change. That's why the active radar turns on periodically every so often. The AGM-84E SLAM uses terminal IIR guidance in addition with inertial & GPS. AGM-84 Harpoon & SLAM (http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/weapons/ag_missiles/agm_84/agm_84_en.htm)

2. Sea state is taken into account when firing. But a 15 foot wave would require very rough seas. Calm is less than a foot, rough is 5 to 8 feet. Sea States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_state)

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/missiles-05t.html
15 foot above the sea level and actually the Coyote is, if you haven't seen, the basis for this missile.

http://www.sinodefence.com/missile/antiship/c201.asp
C-201 can have it's flight altitude changed. "The level flight altitude of the missile can be set at 500 m, 70 m, or 50 m, providing good low-altitude penetration capabilities."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/exocet.htm
"There is also a radar altimeter to control the sea-skimming trajectory, at around 10.0 m until the terminal phase when, in calm sea conditions, the missile can descend to 3.0 m or so."

I wish I could find out what the altitudes of the Harpoon & Sea Eagle are though I would guess they to be in or around that of the Exocet, though I think the Exocet is the lowest flying missile out there. I have to hand it to the French on that one, they built a great missile, and that's the old AM.39 versions. The newest MM.40 Block 3 due out in 2006 is truly a ship-killer.

I am now (Wed @ 1500 EST) watching the Military Channel and they show some AGM-84s hitting and I wouldn't put them any more than 20 feet off the water on impact. Albeit there is no reference but they're hitting not far from the waterline. What version of the Harpoon, I don't know, but the pictures look old, maybe 1980s.

3. Objects hitting the water at Mach 3 would fragment. However, objects designed to penetrate wouldn't. I can't possible imagine what the terminal speed of a GBU-28/B Bunker Buster is but it can go through 100 foot of Earth. Additionally, it can go through 20 feet of concrete, a lot harder than water. GBU-28 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-28-specs.htm)

4. 800 lb warhead is more than the AGM-84. The AGM-84 is equipped with a 488 lb. warhead. The SLAM-ER has an 800 lb. penetrating BF warhead. The AGM-84 can do significant damage to a ship and sink many of them. It's subsonic and some versions do a pop-up and some impact at the waterline. The key with this missile is it has a time-delayed fuse and the missile actually penetrates deep into the ship before it detonates. It sends tungsten fragments through the bottom of the hull especially (based on the trajectory) and the explosion is under the waterline. AGM-84 Harpoon (http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-84.html)

Vastiva

1. Vastiva doesn't know how a torpedo works. Torpedoes explode either on contact, creating a hole underneath the waterline of the ship. In other works they explode underneath the ship. A ship is supported by the water it floats on. When a torpedo explodes it makes a very big air bubble as it forces the water away. Therefore, it removes the support of a ship and the ship actually falls into the void, thus why you will see a cracking thing. There is this video out of an ADCAP test, albeit a very short one, shows what happens to a ship when a torpedo blows up underneath it, it essentially falls into this void and cracks.

2. The sensor and computer don't need to be intact. At that point it's a time delayed fuse. I mean seriously come on, that argument holds NO WEIGHT. If that were true then Paveway IIIs, JDAMs, and Bunker Busters would be useless. I'm not even going to continue on that one. Slam him for me.

3. A ship will always generate heat, it's engines do work you know. In addition IIR, if you ever seen a picture of FLIR and such, can show structures. A good example is this AC-130 video. It's taken from Afghanistan and it's all in FLIR and you can plainly see structures. The same goes for a ship, you can see the ship.

4. I'm not sure I understand the fourth thing he said. I don't know where he gets four separations from to be honest. It has one separation and that is the booster falling off. Unless he is referring to my AGM-192 Dreamcatcher. In that case take this in account. There is the XAGM-48 Skybolt and the LGM-118 Peacekeeper. The missile is based on the two of them. The re-entry of the missile is much like that of an ICBM warhead from the Peacekeeper and the launch and cruise is much alike to the Skybolt. XAGM-48 Skybolt (http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-48.html) & LGM-118 Peacekeeper (http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-118.html)

5. I can't tell what he is referring to in that to be honest. Water, at 300 miles in the air? If he means the AGM-192. And ICBM? If he means the AGM-193.

6. Obviously to be honest I'm not even going to comment on this.

In conclusion, DPUO has a notion as to what he is talking about. Vastiva is just talking to talk and seems to just be regurgitating random things he saw on the History Channel. I like the criticism of DPUO because it makes sense and comes from someone that has a clue. Vastiva, to be honest, doesn't know shit...

"We're about eight minutes from the drop point. What's the status?" The C-17A pilots were flying by the edge of their seats. They were at maximum speed at the lowest level possible, a mere eighty-five feet, higher than the highest tree for the duration of the route. They were vulnerable to just about everything there was to use to down an aircraft, especially ground-launched, man-portable, shoulder-fired missiles. The IDF military was known to possess significant numbers of Stinger missiles, all modern versions, well adapted throughout the years. One of them could take out an engine, two could seriously damage the C-17A, three could force it down, four would force it down. The C-17A was big and it was built to withstand a lot of battle damage but there was only so much she could take.

"Eight minutes out. We're fine. EW reports full jamming of the airfield by EF-111A Ravens and we have Commando Solo in the air. We're good to the target drop. At two minutes we'll ascend to the drop height and slow down. That'll give the men enough time to get ready, if they aren't already." The pilot was experienced. This would be his ninety-nineth combat drop. He'd only lost one aircraft, a C-130J that was shot out from underneath him by enemy ground fire. He wasn't about to lose another one. Six days on the ground were enough to teach him to stay in the air.

"Alright. We're good for that then. RWR is empty. How's the flares?"

"We haven't dropped any....yet..."

"We have ninety remaining then?"

"No. We have one eighty remaining. We took a full load for this mission. Didn't you read your briefing?"

"I always skip countermeasures, I figure I'd find out when the time is right to use them. I don't like to dwell on them."

"Well start to because there are rebels out here, somewhere."

"Yes sir." The co-pilot was a major, the pilot a lieutenant colonel. Both of them were friends but when it came to flying, there was the chain of command and no matter what, they followed it. The rest of the crew was green, having been newly assigned just four months ago. They were recruits, just out of basic, their boots shiny and their egos inflated. They were invincible in this beast of a C-17A but they didn't realize just how vulernable this beast was.

"Alright, four minutes out." The co-pilot looked at his instruments. As he was looking down, the pilot immediately shouted over the com and the co-pilot sprang his head up.

"ENEMY SAM!" The RWR lit up and they were being targetted by a low-level engagement radar. "GET ON THE JAMMING."

"Yes sir!" The co-pilot immediately flipped two switches and the electronic countermeasure system of the C-17A went active, announcing its presence for twenty miles. "Sir, they're tracking us!"

"Roger that." The pilot looked at the RWR again. "Son of a bitch! Carnivale Lead, Carnivale Lead, come in, this is Jackal 42, over."

"Go ahead Jackal 42. Over."

"We've been painted by a ground engagement radar, we're being tracked. Over."

Inside the central command bunker, fourteen people went to work, charting positions, making notes, and looking at papers. The position of the C-17A was marked and the radar would be marked. "Give us the location? Over."

"Bearing due west, 270 degrees. Range unknown. Over."

"Roger that. How strong? Over."

"They're ready to fire! Over."

"Hang tight Jackal 42. Proceed to drop site. Friendly SEAD in bound! Over."

"Roger that sir. Out."

At that time, command sent word to a flight of two F-16CJ Falcons in the air. They were each carrying a pair of AGM-88F AARGM Block II missiles, new to the Layartebian inventory. Additionally, they carried a pair of AIM-120D AMRAAMs, a pair of AIM-9X Sidewinders, two 370 gallon fuel tanks, and a centerline AN/ALQ-131 Block II jammer. "Zebra Flight. This is command, come in over."

"Zebra lead. Go ahead. Over."

"Jackal 42 has a SAM painting it about four miles south of bullseye, bearing 182. Can you engage? Over."

"Roger that. What about fighter cover? Over."

"We have CAP up. Over."

"Roger that, ETA six minutes. Out."

The two F-16CJs increased their throttle and pushed to a southwest course, heading towards bullseye, the airbase. They wouldn't acquire the radar until they were closer but they were definitely looking.

The C-17A lumbered on, flying towards the drop zone at full speed, maintaining it's course. "Sir, we're two minutes out. Initiate drop pattern?"

"Yeah. Let's do it. Keep an eye on that RWR." They popped the plane up and slowed down massively to between one fifty and two hundred knots, drop speed and climbed to two thousand feet. Now they were more than vulnerable, they were sitting ducks. "Open the rear doors, give the two minute warning."

"Roger that." The rear cargo door opened and the blackness of the the night filled the rear of the C-17A, the soldiers all wearing their night vision goggles. "What about flares?"

"Start the program."

"Yes sir." The co-pilot placed the countermeasures on auto. Four flares were dropped at fifteen second intervals, protecting the C-17A from ground-launched missiles. The loadmaster, in the rear of the C-17A, watched out the hatch as the red flares descended. But something caught his eye.

"Oh shit!" He yelled, "MISSILE INBOUND ON OUR REAR QUARTER. MAKE THAT TWO. TWO FLASHES."

"Evasive manuevers!" The pilot screamed as he pushed the manual override on the flares, dropping six more. He banked the aircraft hard right as he pushed up the throttle. Inside the rear of the C-17A, the men flew to the side as they struggled to stay on their feet. "Report flares loadmaster!"

"Sir one hit. The other is still far away."

"Roger that." He pushed the manual override again and another six flares shot out the C-17A and the second missile flew straight into it. "Command come in, over."

"Yes Jackal 42, go, over."

"We've got MANPADs. Over."

"Roger that. What's the status on that SAM? Over."

"Still tracking. When is the SEAD group getting here? Over."

"ETA five minutes. Out."

"Five minutes. We'll be on the ground in four minutes at this rate. Let's do our best and get back to the drop point." They were about a minute out now. "Coming up on drop point. We're sixty seconds out."

"Roger that." The loadmaster gave the sixty second signal. The C-17A fought on as the timer hit thirty seconds. It was almost time to go. The Special Forces were ready to go, very ready to go. As the timer hit zero, they jumped out of the aircraft in groups of four, two out the rear cargo door, and two out the two side doors. Within a minute, they were all out of the plane. "Last man out!" The loadmaster yelled.

"Very well. Close the door, let's get out of here." The pilot banked hard right again to come to a heading to go home. He immediately initiated a climb to get the C-17A over 10,000 feet, where they would be safe from MANPADs. In doing so, he invited the ground radar to further track and engage. "Goddamnit. We're painted by two now! Command this is Jackal 42. We've got two radars tracking us. Will you hurry those Falcons up already! Over."

"Doing our best. Stay high and fast. Out."

"No shit!" The two F-16CJs screamed towards the airbase running at ninety percent throttle at 18,000 feet, pushing 640 knots. They were only about seventeen miles out when the C-17A was lit up by the second radar and they had the targets acquired.

"SAM INBOUND!" The co-pilot screamed as the RWR suddenly announced that a missile was inbound. But within ten seconds that was three missiles!

"Son of a bitch. Get on the chaff. Throttles full ahead!" They pushed the C-17A to full power and went into evasive manuevers, six bundles of chaff ejecting out of the C-17A, confusing one of the missiles. The second missile would wind up being spoofed by the ECM systems. The third wasn't stupid.

"MAGNUM!" The F-16CJ flight cried out as each one of them unleashed a single AGM-88F towards a target. The missiles would be there in a matter of a minute or two but the damage was already done. The enemy had fired three missiles at the C-17A and it was vulnerable to all of them.

"One missile still tracking. Get low sir!"

"On it." They pushed the C-17A into a dive as they dropped more chaff. The missile followed. "What the hell do we have to do!" He screamed as he pulled another hard turn, dropping more chaff. The missile kept coming, like it had a vengeance. It exploded just forty feet away from the rear of the C-17A, sending fragments throughout the rear cargo hold, wounding the loadmaster in his leg, though not critically or mortally. However, the fragments did cut one of the hydraulic lines!

"Command this is Jackal 42. We've been hit. Losing hydraulic fluid. Over."

"Can you make it back to base? Over."

"It'll be close. Out." They were fifty nautical miles from base and they generally had a fifty to sixty nautical mile threashold, depending on the severity of the leak, to get back to base before they were out of hydraulic fluid. This was definitely going to be close and if they didn't nail it on the first try, they were going into the ground.

The C-17A lumbered about, crossing into friendly airspace soon after the distress call. She was low on hydraulic fluid and lined up with the airbase, about eight miles away. Her gear was down and everything ready for landing. The pilot would be, essentially, making a controlled crash onto the runway. He wasn't sure if he'd have to belly land it or not, having no indication or knowledge that the wheels were in fact down. He came in low, pulling the plane nose up just before he ran out of hydraulic fluid. When he ran out he was still two thousand feet in the air and on a good approach. All he had to do now was fiddle with the throttle. The only problem was that if he went into a stall there would be NO WAY to recover and the plane would surely crash. If he came in too fast, he could ignite the fuel in the aircraft, causing it to the tumble. It was definitely not an easy situation.

He tuned out the communications on the radio from the tower and from the other flights. He and his co-pilot sat in their seats, sweating, watching the airspeed indicator. Their flaps were down and their brakes out, creating a phenomenal amount of drag that had to be overcompensated. There just wasn't fluid left to keep the flaps and brakes stowed until he was this close to the runway.

Like a wounded beast, the C-17A, hit the ground hard. The landing was all but soft and they knew the gear was down. Unfortunately, the landing was too hard and immediately snapped the rear, starboard strut, causing the plane, as the nose touched down, to sink to the right, grinding on the ground to a halt. Firetrucks rushed out immediately and doused the plane in foam, immediately cooling off the heated fuselage.

They were down...

*******************************

"Alright, Gold Team. Take up position Alpha. Green Team. Take up position Bravo. Blue Team. Take up position Charlie. Red Team on me!" The Special Forces were on the ground and ready to go. There were four vantage points that they could use to spy on the airbase as well as prop up a laser designator for aircraft. They used their GPS rangefinders to plot the positions of key structures, if it were needed.

"Command, this is Team Coldfire, we're on the ground and ready at Objective 777. Over."

"Roger that. Report activity, over."

"Little. There are four F-22s on the runway but none seem to be manned. We can spot eight C-130 cargo planes on the tarmac and two hangar doors open, it looks like Phantom fighters inside. Air defense is manned by a pair of M163A1s, one I-HAWK site to the west, six Avenger systems, and what appears to be a HUMRAAM. Over."

"Roger that. Stay tight. Out."

"Alright men, we're in position," the group leader said as he looked into his binocculars once again. "Our orders are to remain hidden. Do not engage unless it is absolutely necessary and when it is use stealth. Sit tight guys!" He put down the microphone and watched the airbase carefully.

*******************************

The Emperor, sitting down to a debriefing was shocked at the lack of response from the military. "What type of situation do we have there?" He asked his advisors, many of which just didn't know the answer.

"Sir, it's hard to say. There are three main groups. There is the IDF military still loyal to the previous government. There is also the rebel force, which controls most of this land, apparently this being the base of their operations. The civil war has taken a toll on the civilian populations, which make up the third group. Their allegiance is unknown. We should continue to drop leaflets though."

"Understood. And what are we looking at in terms of weaponry?"

"Very modern sir. They have numerous F-22 Raptors, F-15 Eagles, F-4 Phantom IIs, F-16 Falcons, and a formidibile army with heavy battle tanks. We believe they have at least sixteen Jericho 2 launchers here. As to the capabilities, we can only imagine that they are nuclear. In response to this our border SAM sites will have to be the most vigiliante. More mobile systems include a modified SCUD launcher system, we believe they have forty of these. They are considerably more accurate than the original SCUDs and pack an explosive content of up to two thousand pounds. We believe that these are conventionally armed. They have a range in excess of eight hundred miles. We should be careful of these as well as they are much more mobile and harder to target."

"Very well. Then I believe we should act in a limited manner. We need to find and destroy these systems. Understood?"

There was no doubting in the room. Everyone agreed. How they were going to do it would be a major question. "Sir, how do you recommend we get them?"

"How many guys are on the ground now?"

"About a thousand sir, all Special Forces."

"Alright. How many can we detach to find these weapons?"

"About four hundred."

"Put three hundred on it."

"Alright sir."

"Get F-15E Strike Eagles up with thousand pound Paveways and get some Falcons up with Mavericks. We'll take these suckers out!"

"Very well sir!"

And so it was done. The war against IDF Northern Indiana went full scale...

Replies!
(Things in brackets= your last posts. OR at least portions of it. Yeah.)


All right, fair enough, but there are still issues I have with this. The guidance package relies on ImIR for the terminal stage, which IMO is still a major mistake, since it's going to be more vulnerable to countermeasuring; ImIR is harder to fool than ordinary IR, yes, but it's still possible to do so (hot smoke springs immediately to mind). IMO a better guidance package would employ ImR, ARH and PR on the terminal stage. Now regarding the GPS, I misunderstood that; I was undeer the impression you'd guide it in to the target (i.e. in the terminal stage) using GPS, but since you're apparently using it in the same manner as Russian missiles used to have mid-course updates, fair enough.

That said, periodically turning on the radar still warns the enemy where you're coming from, so the advertising spiel is just a mite untrue. Still, that's adverts for you.

Sea states...mmyes, calm is less than a foot, but I've seen waves a foot high at Moelfre, and that's hardly the middle of the North Atlantic. I'm concerned that if you attempted to use this in poor weather, many of your missiles would fall victim to wave impacts (not to mention wave interference with radar and ImIR). Pacific use might be a little easier, but you'd still get difficulties using this thing in a storm.

Objects designed to penetrate still will, though. The angle at which you're approaching this means that the missile will be impacting the water at an extremely shallow angle; at the speed at which the missile is going, the water will have the same relative density as concrete, and the odds are high that your missile will (at such a low angle) either break up on impact or skitter off the surface and back into the air. Yes, the GBU-28 can penetrate 100 feet of earth, but that's because it's approaching it vertically, reducing the area over which the force to penetrate is applied to a tiny fraction of the bomb's actual area. If the bomb were to be launched at an anlge of twenty degrees from horizontal, I guarantee it would simply fragment or bounce. The missile here needs either a terminal phase pop-up manoeuvre which brings it to a vertical (or near-vertical) ddescent angle, or it needs to be ballistic.

Warheads in RL are a lot smaller than in NS, 'cos RL ships aren't as rugged as NS ships. An 800lb warhead will probably not do significant damage to any NS capital ship unless it detonates beneath the propshafts/waterjet doors, and if it hits against the hull will practically bounce off. Even beneath the keel, it's not likely to do anything more than shake the ship, unless you're firing at an aged Iowa or similar. Even against cruisers and destroyers in NS, an 800lb warhead is no guarantee of a kill, or even of crippling the ship. Still, no guarantee doesn't mean it won't work...but I'm just a little concerned that here, again, your advertising doesn't quite match the capabilities of the weapon.



[DPUO

1. Guidance is active radar, GPS, and IIR. Active-radar and GPS are both employed on the latest Harpoon blocks. Basically, from the radar position, it also gets the GPS location. ]



...which requires satellite to ground/sea contact, interpolation in real time, and will give away the position of the missile. This is assuming there's a satellite that has an idea where the ship is and is fixed on its position. Too many "ifs".




[IIR is being used on the AGM-65F Maverick and AGM-119 Penguin. The F version of the Maverick was built for the USN to have an anti-shipping role. IIR can be jammed, yes, but it is definitely not easy. GPS coordinates are obtained from the initial tracking. Once they get a lock, it's easy to key into a satellite and find the position of the target. Then you just take speed and course into account and you get a good idea of where the target is. But then again, that's suject to change. That's why the active radar turns on periodically every so often. ]

See above about the satellite connection.

[2. Sea state is taken into account when firing. But a 15 foot wave would require very rough seas. Calm is less than a foot, rough is 5 to 8 feet. Sea States ]

[My, but he's sure of himself. Stupid too. Have a look here( http://www.oceanweather.com/data/ ) for an overview of wave states. It is far from difficult to find waves over eleven feet. Given the condition of the NS world (far larger, far larger moon), a fifteen foot wave would be equally common. (Me- Ignore that, seeing as how it's a normal sized Earth. Vas didn't know this, so yeah...) ]

[3. Objects hitting the water at Mach 3 would fragment. However, objects designed to penetrate wouldn't. I can't possible imagine what the terminal speed of a GBU-28/B Bunker Buster is but it can go through 100 foot of Earth. Additionally, it can go through 20 feet of concrete, a lot harder than water. GBU-28 ]

And it's how big? How common? L is talking about a normal missile, not something designed to fire straight down. Impact on a hardened nose designed to impact while the structure of the bomb is not impacted is significantly different then a missile impacting at a shallow angle and creating an impact along it's entire length. The missile will break up.

Or to put it another way, would you rather the semi impacted your trunk, or rolled over your car?

And, for what it's worth, he still hasn't answered the problem of the incompressability of water. Concrete, once shattered, doesn't continue to exert pressure. Water does. There is a reason a supercavatating torpedo isn't longer ranged.]

[4. 800 lb warhead is more than the AGM-84. The AGM-84 is equipped with a 488 lb. warhead. The SLAM-ER has an 800 lb. penetrating BF warhead. The AGM-84 can do significant damage to a ship and sink many of them. It's subsonic and some versions do a pop-up and some impact at the waterline. The key with this missile is it has a time-delayed fuse and the missile actually penetrates deep into the ship before it detonates. It sends tungsten fragments through the bottom of the hull especially (based on the trajectory) and the explosion is under the waterline. AGM-84 Harpoon ]

Has no idea of what even GMC has commented on - the "real world" does not compare to the behemoths with their armor that NS puts on the field. Real world ships are relatively fragile - NS ships are not.

[Vastiva

1. Vastiva doesn't know how a torpedo works. Torpedoes explode either on contact, creating a hole underneath the waterline of the ship. In other works they explode underneath the ship. A ship is supported by the water it floats on. When a torpedo explodes it makes a very big air bubble as it forces the water away. Therefore, it removes the support of a ship and the ship actually falls into the void, thus why you will see a cracking thing. There is this video out of an ADCAP test, albeit a very short one, shows what happens to a ship when a torpedo blows up underneath it, it essentially falls into this void and cracks. ]

We should go far deeper into this. Foremost, when a torpedo explodes, it is not the "absence of water", but the pressure wave which causes the most damage. L does not seem to understand this. Bilges in a ship are created with the understanding that nothing can stand against an adequate pressure wave, but if the wave edges cannot reach across the length of the bilge, it will not penetrate the hull beyond the outer armor.

Twit.

[2. The sensor and computer don't need to be intact. At that point it's a time delayed fuse. I mean seriously come on, that argument holds NO WEIGHT. If that were true then Paveway IIIs, JDAMs, and Bunker Busters would be useless. I'm not even going to continue on that one. Slam him for me. ]


Bunker Busters, JDAMs, and Paveway are bombs meant to fall at immobile targets. Without their sensor equipment in place, all are useless - Paveway, in fact, is laser guided. Remove the laser sensor, and its a brick.

Ships are not immobile targets. Ships use a variety of jamming techniques. And without sensors, missing becomes more probable as your target moves, and your CEP increases.

To think about it another way, if the ship is moving west and your missile is off to the east, the miss is significant.

My, L doesn't appear to know the difference between a laser-guided bomb and a missile.

[3. A ship will always generate heat, it's engines do work you know. In addition IIR, if you ever seen a picture of FLIR and such, can show structures. A good example is this AC-130 video. It's taken from Afghanistan and it's all in FLIR and you can plainly see structures. The same goes for a ship, you can see the ship.]

Again, does not take into account NS technology. Most NS ships are nuclear, mostly pebblebed, and vented to avoid such detection. Worthless method.


[4. I'm not sure I understand the fourth thing he said. I don't know where he gets four separations from to be honest. It has one separation and that is the booster falling off. Unless he is referring to my AGM-192 Dreamcatcher. In that case take this in account. There is the XAGM-48 Skybolt and the LGM-118 Peacekeeper. The missile is based on the two of them. The re-entry of the missile is much like that of an ICBM warhead from the Peacekeeper and the launch and cruise is much alike to the Skybolt. XAGM-48 Skybolt & LGM-118 Peacekeeper ]

A separation is a separation - I read four in the original post, but if only one, so be it. Still a separation, but I took "stages" as separations.


[5. I can't tell what he is referring to in that to be honest. Water, at 300 miles in the air? If he means the AGM-192. And ICBM? If he means the AGM-193.

6. Obviously to be honest I'm not even going to comment on this.

In conclusion, DPUO has a notion as to what he is talking about. Vastiva is just talking to talk and seems to just be regurgitating random things he saw on the History Channel. I like the criticism of DPUO because it makes sense and comes from someone that has a clue. Vastiva, to be honest, doesn't know shit... ]


I'm so glad I'm in such high esteem from someone I ignore. His missile is a piece of shit and should not be considered a useful weapon.

Righto. And back again with those tech arguments. En garde!

DPUO

Yes the active radar periodical turning would let them know I'm coming. The thing with that is that I would use it to work with the guidance system, namely the GPS, to update it and see what's in it's way since it is flying so low. I can't have it barrelling into a merchant ship ;). I would use passive radar but that only works if the enemy ship has its radar on and that's no guarantee. Active radar terminal would be nice but I thought IIR to work better since chaff can fool active radar. Not many ships employ IIR jammers as of this moment.

In poor weather it's altitude would be changed like the Exocet and the Chinese missiles.

In concern to the AOA for the drop, I have changed it to a terminal pop-up actually. I just haven't updated yet. It brings it up to 2,000 meters in height and brings it down against the hull of the ship, still going under the water, hitting at a more 45° angle. I am thinking of deck penetration with a newer warhead to force all of the tungsten shots downward instead of all over. I've got to see about that actually.

The goal is actually the kinetic energy of the missile. It'll punch a very big hole under the waterline. Then comes the flooding. The goal of the water is to buckle the hull and send those tungsten shots everywhere, thereby making a shotgun effect, and making the ship sort of bend & crumble on itself. It's much like a torpedo does except it isn't underneath the ship so not as effective. An ADCAP with a 1,200 pound warhead can sink anything short of an aircraft carrier because of the way it detonates. The joy and glory of this thing is that it explodes inside the ship and has the fragmentation effect, meaning a whole lot of damage.

Vastiva

What I said before about him counts from that moment on. He loves to hear himself talk. He's half the reason I despise most of NATO. Too bad I can't blame the RWC for it :).

Samtonia do you have any criticism or comment on the missiles?

WEll, seeing as a number of Vastiva's comments are actually kind of valid, I would sugest at least trying to refute them without getting angry at him.

AS for me with arguments, as soon as I actually wrap my head around weapons designs, I'll get back to you. Basically, it seems to me as if this missile would be relatively easy to track and thus mislead, qwuite difficult to actually lead it to the target via GPS, and would probably not do all too much to some of the igger ships in most peoples navies, from my understanding after going over all relevant arguments.

But if you're looking to me for tech arguments, I'm way out of my league. Why do you think I asked other people for help? :)

WEll, seeing as a number of Vastiva's comments are actually kind of valid, I would sugest at least trying to refute them without getting angry at him.

AS for me with arguments, as soon as I actually wrap my head around weapons designs, I'll get back to you. Basically, it seems to me as if this missile would be relatively easy to track and thus mislead, qwuite difficult to actually lead it to the target via GPS, and would probably not do all too much to some of the igger ships in most peoples navies, from my understanding after going over all relevant arguments.

But if you're looking to me for tech arguments, I'm way out of my league. Why do you think I asked other people for help? :)

Well yes it would take multiple missiles to take out multiple ships. The missile is MT though as I RP MT so no it isn't meant to be effective against the PMT beheamouths like the Doujin and other designs. One of them would effectively sink something in the realm of a small, light carrier, mainly because of the penetration. Against carriers I might do a total top-down attack to shatter the flight deck but I'm not sure. Been busy lately.

BTW Vastiva said himself he ignores me so therefore I take no account of his opinion whatsoever.

[OOC- You seem to not understand the difference of OOC vs. IC. IC, he ignores you, so that missile doesn't matter at all. OOC, he apparently doesn't like you while the feeling is reciprocated and yet, he doesn't ignore you OOC. Because the ignore is an IC tool. It can't then be used OOC.

So reply to his OOC comments on your OOC listing of a missile. It's the least you could do for him having pointed out possible design flaws in posts which took him time to research and write.]

[OOC- You seem to not understand the difference of OOC vs. IC. IC, he ignores you, so that missile doesn't matter at all. OOC, he apparently doesn't like you while the feeling is reciprocated and yet, he doesn't ignore you OOC. Because the ignore is an IC tool. It can't then be used OOC.

So reply to his OOC comments on your OOC listing of a missile. It's the least you could do for him having pointed out possible design flaws in posts which took him time to research and write.]

So he ignores the technology and me IC but he feels free to comment on the technology that he ignores because he ignores me. So let's see. Criticism & then hide under the guise of an ignore cannon.

So it's a half-hearted ignore. See what's the fun in that. However I'm going to extend it to OOC as well because he pisses me off to the highest point of pisstivity. I doubt it took him more than 30 seconds to write each post, just spitting out what he saw on last night's episode of Modern Marvels or Tech Week.

Well said, Layarteb.

The skies over Northern Indiana lit up. The rebels were, for the most part, in control of at least 45% of the air defense network, including some 80% of the guns. It made the night sky illuminated with tracer fire as F-15E Strike Eagles and F-16C Falcons bombed key, strategic targets. Command and control targets were of critical importance. F-117A Nighthawks and B-2A Spirit bombers took out the moderately defended targets, targets that non-stealth aircraft could not attack. F-19A Ghostriders and B-4A Magnums took out the most heavily defended targets, using JDAMs. F-24A Knightowls, F-22A Raptors, and F-25B Firefoxes swept the air, engaging and destroying all aircraft that were in the air, albeit not many of them were. FB-22B Mantas and F-19A Ghostriders had hit the airbases already with 250 lb. SDB JDAM bombs, hitting the aircraft on the tarmac. They were followed by B-4A Magnum and B-7B Incubus bombers, which took out the runways with heavier JDAM bombs. B-1B Lancers would be used to take out targets with JDAMs and conventional ordinance.

The air war would last until command was fully satisfied the rebels were beaten into the ground. That was the ultimate goal.

Bombing continued throughout the course of the night, with FB-22s and F-19s hitting crucial targets in force and number, with their GBU-39 SDB bombs. Friendly forces launched over a hundred HARM missiles at radar emitting targets within the first six hours and by the time the morning sun rose, fires burned throughout half of Northern Indiana, mostly isolated from tactical bombing. The wrecks of aircraft littered the airports and the eleven fighters the rebels got up into the sky were put down quicker than they had started their engines.