NationStates Jolt Archive

I play with pre-modern tech but I rarely find anyone else who does. I recently opened a storefront, but I don't think anyone will use it because it seems that no one else is pre-modern. My Tech is mid 1800 level, pre-civil war.

The point of this thread is to essentially recruit people to play Pre-modern Tech. Don't want to give up your modern tech army? Fine! Play as your ancestors so you have a pre-modern and a modern army. Better yet, if you have time, start a new nation and devote it to pre-modern tech.

Im also looking for someone who knows about pre-modern weaponry. When it comes to Cannon, Muskets, Rifles, Gatlin Guns, blah, blah, blah, I dont really know enough to open a storefront. I would like someone else to open a storefront for these things if you know enough.

Essentially I would like to see pre-modern tech emerge just as recognized as any other era.

I play with pre-modern tech but I rarely find anyone else who does. I recently opened a storefront, but I don't think anyone will use it because it seems that no one else is pre-modern. My Tech is mid 1800 level, pre-civil war.

The point of this thread is to essentially recruit people to play Pre-modern Tech. Don't want to give up your modern tech army? Fine! Play as your ancestors so you have a pre-modern and a modern army. Better yet, if you have time, start a new nation and devote it to pre-modern tech.

Im also looking for someone who knows about pre-modern weaponry. When it comes to Cannon, Muskets, Rifles, Gatlin Guns, blah, blah, blah, I dont really know enough to open a storefront. I would like someone else to open a storefront for these things if you know enough.

Essentially I would like to see pre-modern tech emerge just as recognized as any other era.
I'm actually DYING to RP as a 1800s-era country, but even if I don't, I'm still planning to buy your Acrimoni-class frigate (I RP having the original USS Constitution, after all, and it'd be nice to get a new build that's similar to it.)

*Snuggles coal- powered tanks and Zeppelin Battleships*

Well, ~1900 techwank/ steampunk. A tad to high for such, I guess. Not that I'm active, anyway o.O*

Ahem. I would note that a storefront for such would be kinda pointless, though (Well, all storefronts are pointless... 'cept the DAIWD). So I would go for the nation history angle... 'course, my main nation ~ 1850... I believe it was occupied by reasonably undefined occupiers... I think... Or did I have the revolution in 1848... Bah.

The purpose for buying from a storefront is to have "proof" that you have as many weapons as you say you do. I can just say that i built myself six frigates and that would be unquestionsed. If I say that I have 100 frigates and someone doesn't think I can afford that I can show them were I bought them instead of just saying, "Can So!"

The purpose for buying from a storefront is to have "proof" that you have as many weapons as you say you do. I can just say that i built myself six frigates and that would be unquestionsed. If I say that I have 100 frigates and someone doesn't think I can afford that I can show them were I bought them instead of just saying, "Can So!"OOC: Yeah. That's why a lot of nations buy from storefronts. Or they announce threads where they build specific technology or what have you.

I'd like to do a pre-modern tech, but I don't think I have enough time to organize a storefront... We don't really need one so long as everyone is reasonable.

The purpose for buying from a storefront is to have "proof" that you have as many weapons as you say you do. I can just say that i built myself six frigates and that would be unquestionsed. If I say that I have 100 frigates and someone doesn't think I can afford that I can show them were I bought them instead of just saying, "Can So!"*Smoking Pits main nation*

Ahem. If someone doubts that you can build $thing, he will doubt that you can buy $thing, too. I certainly would.

'Sides, in nine of ten cases, when you start having arguments about numbers, the thread is already ruined. AND storefronts take up space that could otherwise show normal threads. Which is, IMHO, not the best idea.

Oh, and finally, the way storefronts are run on NS is somewhat laughable... I would most certainly enjoy increasing the ties of my nations backstory (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Der_Angst#History) by adding other occupiers/ occupied victims to its semi- defined history. However, I am absolutely not interested in buying/ selling stuff.

Well, neither am I interested in doing it on the 'normal' level...

Im not suggesting that anyone needs to make a storefront, just looking for people interested in doing a pre-modern RP. The thing about storefronts is that they are useful, at least as far as I am concerned. No one needs to use a storefront if they don't want to. Besides, making a pre-modern storefront would be complicated moneywise. No one could use their current numbers because no one had the sort of money back then that our nations supposedly have.

The Eternal Alshorian Empire of the Ralish (A.K.A. The Eternal Golden Empire) has only in the last two generations begun to make widespread, large-scale use of ironworking, so there's not much danger of our being called modern or post-modern :)

We're not the most active nation in the game, perhaps, but still available for a decent RP now and then.

We're rather prior to C19th technology, but that doesn't entirely exclude the possibility of interaction.

Sure, gunpowder weapons and the ability to sail into the wind might shock us somewhat, but outsiders would likely marvel at the way everything in Alshor *appears* to be made of solid gold.

I've been half heartedly working on some events in the Empire, lately, so I might actually get around to posting something and inviting contact, soonish.

lets see umm not interested and all i can say about pre-modern tech is that the ships sucked the guns had max range of about 100 yards and cavilry was one of the best forces

lets see umm not interested
Then why waste my time?

all i can say about pre-modern tech is that the ships sucked the guns had max range of about 100 yards
The ships sucked compared to now, all of it sucked compared to now. By the way, i assume you just left off a 0 on your yards statement? The USS Constitution had a max range of 1000 yards, the same as my Acrimoni class.

cavilry was one of the best forces
Im not usually one to pick on spelling errors, but cavilry? Come on, its Cavalry. I make plenty of spelling errors, but how could that not look wrong to you?

Think before you type Junior.

it did look rong but i couldnt remember how to spell it (spelling is not my strong suit)

I have the same problem with spelling sometimes too. If you are really having a problem with a word or want to make sure that your post is just exactly right, try this link. (http://www.spellcheck.net/)

I will join in, my main nation RP's as The British Empire in Modern Tech, and I am only too willing to transfer to 1800's as well.

But I have to be British!

Of Course! A British man-o-war is nothing to sneeze at! Unless of course that last cannonball they shot at you got a little powder in your nose...

Sorry for the delay. How does this sound:

The Ralish was happened upon by Acrimonic Mariners. Ralish and Acrimoni become allies, but word of the "Gold" got out. Now Acrimoni has to defend Ralish and help them defend themselves against Pirates, Acrimonic deserters, and imposing nations. Each nation can choose to be either an aggresor or an ally to Ralish and Acrimoni. Im thinking this will be set in 1850. Sound good?

Like Sarzonia, I would love to do an 1800's version of NS, but this is pretty close. Sure, I'll join if you'll have me. Though I think I would like to RP a different nation to historic Falastur for it. Falastur just wasn't strong enough to be a serious contender for this kind of thing (by the 1850s, it was stuck full-swing in colonial expansions on the far side of the globe, hoping that by keeping out of everyone's way, it could avoid being noticed and attacked by countries equally as civilised. Also, it is a far-flung and fragmented Empire, and just too hard to defend in a 1850s scenario. However, I would very much like to get involved as some random other nation (which I will make pretty much after I post this).

Are you looking at having some kind of population restrictions, to stop people older nations from simply wiping the floor with people like me using 5-million-population brand new nations?

Sorry for the delay. How does this sound:

The Ralish was happened upon by Acrimonic Mariners. Ralish and Acrimoni become allies, but word of the "Gold" got out. Now Acrimoni has to defend Ralish and help them defend themselves against Pirates, Acrimonic deserters, and imposing nations. Each nation can choose to be either an aggresor or an ally to Ralish and Acrimoni. Im thinking this will be set in 1850. Sound good?

Sounds good. The Ralish being some kind of native peoples?

Sounds good. The Ralish being some kind of native peoples?
The Ralish is a nation that posted earlier in this thread. They said they are ancient tech (iron age) but everyhting seems to be made out of gold. He hasnt responded to my telegrams though, so I may change the plot.

Are you looking at having some kind of population restrictions, to stop people older nations from simply wiping the floor with people like me using 5-million-population brand new nations?
Yes, Any nation participating with a pop of over 100 million should being playing historically. China was the largest nation in the world in 1850, and it had a pppulation of only 430 million. We will all have much less than that. I say we divide into three groups. The Weakling, less than 15 million; the in betweens, 15-50 million (The US had a pop of 23 mil), and the superpowers, upwards of 50 million. To make things fair, superpowers should choose opposite teams.

I will RP with a pop of 27 million.

Telegrams? Sorry, I didn't get any. The only telegram I have is about 430 days old! (Yes, I'm just that popular!)

I'd be interested in that. There's going to be an internal war in the empire, too, between, well, the empire itself and the unsettled people of two of it's under-developed provinces, but the empire is massive, a few thousand miles across, so that may never become an issue.

I tend to consider The Ralish to have a population around 1% of what is listed in my profiles, so presently that is just under forty million people, I think. That's fairly large, but gives us a fairly slight population density in our grand empire, and I think compares well with the larger ancient empires, possibly being fairly close to Rome at its height (but I could be wrong about that).

If we go through with this, I suppose I'll post a lot more information in this thread, maybe, for OOC reference, and see if my friend's still hosting the rough map of the empire (it's not detailed, but gives a few points of reference).

I'd like to rp my nation in this, but I'd probably curb the population quite a bit considering it is 1.2 billion at the moment... I'd probably have around 30 million people. Caladonn is an island chain, with very dense population. I might be an ally of Acrimoni and Ralish, but the situation can change...

Ill start the IC thread in a couple days once I get it all sorted out. I just thought I'd give you guys a little RP background for my nation.

At this point in history, Acrimoni has a poplulation of 27 million, but in a rtaher large area. The islands Acrimoni and Padastron are our two largest provinces. Militarily we are not well advanced for this era, but we are a major naval power. Padastron is very mountainous and has rough shores so it is easily defendable, but difficult to manuever. Acrimoni, however, is a volcanic island and has a gently sloping terrain, but the eastern end is often subject to eruptions of the underwater volcanoe. Padastron is about the size of Montana and Acrimoni about the size of California. The other islands are small and at this point in history mostly insignificant.

Acirmoni's royal fleet boasts 90 ships and the home guard fleet contains 76, though most are older models. Acirmoni has 8 ironclads total. 2 are built like the CSS Virginia, 2 like the Merrimack, 3 like the Monitor, and 1 experimental ship. It is built like the Monitor but it has two turrets instead of one. They are placed evenly apart, about a third of a ship between them and from the ends. Two of the Monitor type and one of the virginia type are in the home fleet and the rest are in the royal fleet. Unfrotunately, most all of Acrimoni's timberclad frigates are sail powered with only one properly functioning steam powered frigate.

Yep, turns out we still have the basic map, which I suppose will be important for reference when the thread starts, if much of this is to be a struggle between those wishing to befriend the Eternal Golden Empire and those wishing to pick it apart.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Chivtv/NS1/RalishEmpire.jpg

As you can see, it is a pretty massive continent. It is inhabited by almost forty million people.
A brief history and over view is as such:

The continent is known as Aisa.
Formerly it was home to almost a dozen races, and the Atlan were arguably the most powerful, having been the first to make limited use of iron working. They controlled a trading empire that more or less forced the primitive Pyrenian people to provide labour, but otherwise kept only trading posts in foreign provinces and protected them with force.
The people of Alshor, however, had other ideas, building an imperial religion around their king, who took the name Ralish I. They struck out as far back as 2,500bc and began to conquer their neighbours, declaring the Eternal Alshorian Empire to be the destiny of Aisa. Their technology was not the most advanced -they were a bronze age society- but their armies were well trained and motivated, and their society better organised than most ancients. One by one, the Alshorian Empire picked off other Aisan civilisations, until they clashed with the Atlan. This became arguably Aisa's equivalent to the Punic Wars, and Alshor would eventually prove to play the Roman part, the Atlans condemned to a Cathaginian fate once the imperial armies began to adopt iron weapons on a wide scale.

The Eternal Alshorian Empire eventually became the Eternal Golden Empire as later Ralish kings tried to avoid fostering animosity: the Atlan and Sutruah and others had been proud people themselves and did not like to be looked upon as Alshorian subjects, but did not generally object to being part of a grand continental empire. Equally, the empire allowed itself to be called Ralish rather than specifically Alshorian, uniting all behind the King.

By and large, the Eternal Golden Empire is not a cruel one, at least not be ancient standards. It does practice some harsh punishments for crime, but its judges are usually considered to be quite professional. It also operates a slave economy, but it simply hasn't occured to anyone in Aisa that this might be wrong. You were born a slave, why shouldn't you live as one? Or, you were born free and abused that freedom, it's the empire's right to enslave you, so far as most people are concerned.

Now, it is a wealthy iron age empire with a prosperous slave economy, largely comfortable peasantry, and well to do middle class full of new and inventive ideas. The imperial military is centred around the elite Alshorian Guard of around 25,000 men, but in times of crisis large militias can be raised from both lower nobility (with arms and armour bought themselves) and the peasantry (less well armed, but at the moment reasonably loyal as the vast empire gives them plenty of land to raise comfortably large harvests).

The only problem at the moment is that Rustica and Kandahi are on the brink of rebellion thanks to local warlords who could never be entirely put-down: the Rusticans especially are nomadic plains people who are unimpressed by the empire's civilisation and prone to causing trouble.

As to military technology, well, the Ralish people would be extremely impressed by your frigates, let alone iron clads :)
The Alshorian guard fight in phalanx-like formations, have short bows and javelins to disrupt enemy formations, and some wield spears while others have short swords half way between a true cutting blade and a gladius.
There are a large number of chariots available to wealthier nobility, light cavalry is favoured over heavy, and there are some compound bowmen able to outrange many musketeers (though this is likely a mute point as they'd probably panic and run away at the totally alien experience of gunpowder in action).
Ships include very skilled Akralonian sailors and big Atlan trireme type vessels. There are oil-burning weapons akin to Greek fire, and -as on land- some fighters carry grenade-like pots full of oil-based fuel that can threaten wooden vessels and sails. Most naval fighting is done by raming and boarding actions, so a gun-armed frigate would have to be massively outnumbered or else commanded by an idiot in order to lose a fight with the Alshorian fleet.

I'll provide some background on Caladonn...

The Great Republic of Caladonn is situated on a relatively small (compared to it's population) island chain. It has a population of 30 million. Many non-precious metals are found on the islands, which were formed from extinct volcanoes millions of years ago. Most of the population's diet comes from fish and other ocean products, as there is little arable land on the islands. The Caladonians have an advanced society. The steel alloy is being refined and the steam engine is widely used. Most Caladonians live in urban areas, with much of the communication by boat. Caladonn's political system is that of a progressive democracy, and punishments are relatively benign. The leadership is provided by two consuls who serve equally for one year. Caladonn's exports include iron, coal and stone. They sometimes need to import food if the fishing is bad, and all Caladonians have a wonder of precious metals and gems, as none are found in their native land. Caladonn's military force is almost all naval, and consists of 100,000 active regulars (0.33% of the population). Caladonians disdain close-combat, and so mainly have long-range weapons and at all cost stay away from boarding attempts. Their fleet consists of around 100 ships, ranging from mighty capital ships to small sloops. Almost all are sheathed in iron and use steam screws for propulsion. Most also have masts, though, as the conservative elements do not trust the new form of power. Caladonn has no standing army, and would only institute conscription in times of dire necessity, as in the past a civil war erupted over the draft and since it has been treated with caution by the government. They have remained relatively isolated other than extensive trading, and so are relatively naive when it comes to diplomacy. Most of the navy's fighting experience has been against pirates and insurgents.

Sorry if you think I'm a bit godmoddish... I was planning on having Caladonn powerful technologically but naive diplomatically. And of course only about half the fleet is combat, the rest are in support roles.

OOC: What period is this RP to be? Not to pick apart your nation, Caladonn, but if we are 1850s, then ironclads and propellor-turbines haven't really come into use yet. However, they will do in about ten or so years. Which makes me unsure as to where we are at, hence the question.

This is Falastur's nation for this RP. And here is a little background to this nation, that I am making up as I go along. So please tell me if something needs changing, and if you are interested in this nation's history then check this post because I may well update or change things. But anyway:

The Kingdom of Venedae (population roughly 24 million) is a well-established and thriving nation, beginning to embrace the industrial revolution which is sweeping the civilised world. Formerly it inhabited the most part of a large island, south of its continent. As such, it was long known for its naval strength and prowess. However, due to a history of political marriages between dynasties, and of claims to thrones giving rise to intense wars, Venedae subsequently expanded, finally winning the Seven-Generation Wars, when it conquered the throne of a rival Kingdom (being Saestin) across the Strait of Evanto, and with it, generous portions of the land of Saestin's weaker allies and dependents. That was around 150 years ago, and since then, with Venedae's expansion to the mainland, emphasis has moved from naval strength to a more land-based power. However, it retains skill in naval matters, and thus rates as moderate/good in both land and naval warfare, excellent in neither. With the rise of Republicanism in recent years, however, land warfare has once again become a prevalent and vital tool of Venedian survival, and so, it may only be a matter of time before Venedae becomes a world-shattering force. Venedae has in recent years also begun colonial expansion, its enlargened trading horizons being the cause of a far part of its financial strength now. Currently, however, Venedae's Empire is little to speak of - it consists of a few isolated island chains used largely as trading outposts and for exploitation of natural resources, a small handful of coastal territories, and one large territory (named Yalentira) across the oceans from Venedae - a temperate area, it makes it the perfect place for colonising, while the low technological advancement of the native peoples, coupled with the fact that the continent has largely gone unnoticed by other colonial competitors (at least, on the scale of Yalentira) means that expansion of the territory is relatively easy, and the continent is inexhorably moving under Venedian domination. It is this region which is the "cash-crop" of the Venedian Empire, and is guarded by the bulk of their colonial army. Yalentira is home to several million natives, as well as a rapidly growing colonial population from many different nations and backgrounds. However, these people are not actively recruited into the Venedian military - those who do sign up are pressed into the Colonial forces, to help with the expansion of the territory (aka you won't be hearing from these soldiers in this RP, hence why I didn't include them in the Venedian population at the beginning of this passage).

Venedae's Government is still largely autocratic, although in recent years, parliamentary reforms have been required to appease revolutionaries, rather than risk civil war. Currently, about 90,000 strong, the Venedian army is slowing growing and is becoming better equipped as the industrialisation of Venedae helps it to mass-produce weaponry, and develop the skills and techniques to discover better ones.

Edit: triple post. Dang lag :(

Edit: triple post. Dang lag :(

Sorry, but I did say the Caladonians were pretty advanced. Actually, iron-hulled steamships were being used in 1834. I'm not sure about the screw propellor, but if people are mad at me for using that, I'll make the ships have paddlewheels instead. Also, Acrimoni is using highly advanced ironclads with rotating turrets and no masts. These were not in use until late in the Civil War. They had screw propellors, I'm pretty sure.

Sorry, but I did say the Caladonians were pretty advanced. Actually, iron-hulled steamships were being used in 1834. I'm not sure about the screw propellor, but if people are mad at me for using that, I'll make the ships have paddlewheels instead. Also, Acrimoni is using highly advanced ironclads with rotating turrets and no masts. These were not in use until late in the Civil War. They had screw propellors, I'm pretty sure.

OK. I wasn't trying to get you to change, or anything. Just to find out where we are up to. Hmmm...this is going to make me next to useless at naval tactics :)

It's fine. So, when will we start? Also, does anyone think my nation is too big? I might make it smaller. And Venedae, I like your history. i did mine on the spot too.

Thanks. My mind is constantly pondering alternative histories based around England winning the 100 years' war and such, and that was the inspiration behind a bit of my history, as you can probably see clearly now I point it out. But I'm not intending to play as England and France. The rest was just stuff I made up as I went along. I was always good about blabbing on for pages what I could say in a couple of lines, which is a talent when you want to write detail about something just coming into your mind.

Finally it seems I have a good chance to test my Napoleonic military tactics...this should be interesting. I will probably be an invading nation, btw, unless anyone wants me to change sides to balance the teams, or whatever.

Ah yes, the hundred years' war. I can see the parallels now. Started by marriage bickering, war across a channel, large territory over the sea... Too bad you left out the longbowmen squashing knights, though. My people, as I said before, are naive but like gold, so I don't know what team they will be on. To defend Ralish and get gold legitimately... or to attack and get it by force... The possibilities are endless. Although my lack of an invasion force does pose some problems. I'll have to start reading up on Napoleonic tactics.

Caledonia, Im not setting this as a rule, just a suggestion. If your navy will be that advanced, make your army weaker like I did. Also, having your entire force be steamed powered at this time would be very advanced, but you could probably do it. My nation has only 8 ironclads if you notice whereas your entire fleet is said to be. Im not going to tell you to change, but for RP purposes it couldn't hurt.

BTW, Im going to be out of town today so if we want to start this today someone else will have to start it. Hopefully I will have time to post on Friday though.

Acually, my name is Caladonn. Also, if you read my post you will see that my army is nonexistent. I HAVE NONE. Yes, this is a major setback, so I thought it was fair if I had aan advanced fleet.

Ah yes, the hundred years' war. I can see the parallels now. Started by marriage bickering, war across a channel, large territory over the sea... Too bad you left out the longbowmen squashing knights, though. My people, as I said before, are naive but like gold, so I don't know what team they will be on. To defend Ralish and get gold legitimately... or to attack and get it by force... The possibilities are endless. Although my lack of an invasion force does pose some problems. I'll have to start reading up on Napoleonic tactics.

Yeah, but I didn't want to go too deep into history that was irrelevant, even if I do love the medieval period only less than the Napoleonic. Also, I didn't want to sink too deep into factual history. Venedae is supposed to be fictional, after all...

Sort of...I actually nicked the name from a 4th Century tribe inhabiting the land roughly equal to Belarus and the adjacent bit of Russia. I was short of inspiration.

Sorry if I was kind of harsh. I could change some to wind-power if you feel it's necessary.
On the composition of the Caladonian Fleet:
100,000 men, 100 ships divided into:
-50,000 men, 0 ships on land (Support, onshore batteries, etc.)
-50,000 at sea divided into:
-25,000 on 50 ships (Sea resupply of coal, ammunition, food, etc.)
-25,000 and 50 ships divided into:
-5 fleets of 5,000 men and 10 ships. Each fleet has:
-1 flagship (1,000 men)
-2 Ships of the Line (2,000 men; 1,000 each)
-4 Frigates (2,000 men; 500 each)
-2 Sloops (600 men; 300 each)
-1 modified sloop with 2 hot-air balloons (400 men)

If you have a problem with me having hot-air baloons, say so. They won't be that helpful though, as they can't control their movment. Of the five fleets, one protects the ports and immediate coastline around Caladonn. The four others are each given one direction: North, South, East, and West. The numbers of men include marines, which are helpful at close range with muskets and a few rifles, but aren't very good at stopping a boarding attempt. Any questions comments or concerns on my fleet?

It's been a week since anyone posted! What's going on?

Sorry guys, Ive gotten kind of busy lately. I'm afraid that Im not giong to have time for this for a while. If someone else wants to be the main character, I would be a minor character instead so that my lond periods of absence that Ill be sure to have won't affect anyone too much. Also, Caladonn, the advanced navy was fine since you have no army. Without making cannons and rifles for a ground force the supplies wouldn't be a problem, although I do like the new one. Like I said anyway, I wasn't trying to tell you what to do.

Anyways, It would be great if somone wanted to start this, I really am sorry that I won't have time.

I'd like to but it seems kind of hard with four people involved. I'll try and see if someone else from my region wants to join.

I would be interested in participating.

Great! We'll see how many people we can get.

I might start a thread, soon, initially with an internal conflict and introduction to Ralish life, but perhaps it could provide an opportunity for somebody else's ships to appear on the horizon...

That's fine. If my nation doesn't appear for a while, I could rp a group of Ralish dissidents if you want. Hajjjiyah, could you post some stats/background on your nation?

Just to say, I'm still here. I went on holiday for a week, but I'm back now, and still interested.

Great! Do you think we have enough people to start the rp?

Well, everyone seems to have lost interest in this... :(

lets see umm not interested and all i can say about pre-modern tech is that the ships sucked the guns had max range of about 100 yards and cavilry was one of the best forces

Um... wrong. Max effective range of the 1860 Colt-contract .58 caliber rifled musket, Springfield rifled musket, and Enfield 1853 rifled musket was over 600 yards. (Effective being "man-killing accuracy") the Snider, Springield Trapdoor, and Martini Henry breechloaders were man-killers out to almost 800 yards on average.

Smoothebore muskets (Brown Bess, French pattern, etc.) had a max effective range of 100 yards, but those are 18th century tech, not 19th.

The six pounder 'parrot' gun (a muzzle-loading rifled cannon) was U.S. Army issue in the American Civil war, and it, along with siege mortars, was possessed of range into the 2000 plus yard range at optimum angle with a full powder charge.

The .44 caliber Colt Navy 1851 used by many states of the Confederacy, the .44 calibre 1860 Colt, and 1858 Remington revolvers, all had effective ranges of 25 to 30 yards with issued powder and ammunition.

Premodern includes early cartridge and repeating arms. the 1864 Henry repeater was man-killing accurate out to 300 yards in trianed hands using what amounts to a .44 special round. At Greasy Grass (Little Bighorn), Sioux forces used surplus yellowboys and other war-era/early postwar era weapons to overcome Custer with volume-fire (History Channel had a nice special on this which was also done as an article in "Military History Classics" magazine last year.)

Additionally: the 1871 Dreyse needlefire rifle, 1895 Steyr, and 1888 Lee-Metford had ranges not incompatible with modern bolt-actions (this in spite of being blackpowder cartridge arms!)

The French introduced the smokeless powder cartridge in 1886 with the first-model Lebel, which replaced the Chassepot and Graus rifles in French service.

the Germans refined Paul Mauser's original patent (meant for blackpowder arms) and created the 1888 Comission rifle the same year that England adopted the Lee action, both of which went through a number of refinements thorugh the1880's and 1890's.

In the United states, a number of engineers and designers came up with weapons that later became non-military standards: James Paris Lee designed the magazine and bolt used in the british Lee-Enflied for Remington in the 1870's, Paul Mauser designed his single-piece, front-locking bolt around the same time period. Colt, Winchester, and Remington designed slews of single-shto and repeating arms.

On the heavy-weapons front, the Gatling gun was first employed against the Confederacy, along iwth a single-barrelled complicated hand-cranked arm called the Agar Coffee-mill. The principle of recoil-operation was developed by Hiram Maxim in the 1880's and refined into the Vickers and Maxim machineguns that brought an end to the "Glorious Cavalry Charges" in Europe forty years after those same charge tactics were rendedered useless in North America-by similar weapons, and by the advent of the Repeating Rifle.

Wow. Maybe this isn't so dead after all... :)

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