NationStates Jolt Archive

Meh, post the lengthy out of character here!

<OOC>
Even if I took your word for it, your word doesn't commit your allies to the same policy.


Well, the truth is that none of my allies even care about Five Civilized Nations. It was his choice to get caught up in my thread when it had nothing to do about him. Indeed, the deal between myself and Hyland-Nicholaas is that my operations against Five Civilized Nations would be totally defensive in nature. In fact, Hylaand is one of my major allies concerning what the point of the thread was.

<tag>

BTW, Opportunity is at 250 meters not feet...

Just FYI, I am a member of Hyland-Nicholaas.

I think I said 250 meters, if not that's what I meant..and I've already talked it over with New Empire and Artitsa.

From my reading of sonobuoys and its usage in detection of submarines, along with the differences in water conditions depending on depth, it is very unlikely that your sonobuoys picked up anything, unless you managed to drop it at 250 meters (plus or minus ten meters), which is very unlikely. Therefore, the possibility of detecting my submarine is very unlikely. Finally MAD is only used to detect submarines running shallow. Unless you've raised the sensitivity by about 50 or 100 times, it is unlikely to detect a submarine so deep.

From my reading of sonobuoys and its usage in detection of submarines, along with the differences in water conditions depending on depth, it is very unlikely that your sonobuoys picked up anything, unless you managed to drop it at 250 meters (plus or minus ten meters), which is very unlikely. Therefore, the possibility of detecting my submarine is very unlikely. Finally MAD is only used to detect submarines running shallow. Unless you've raised the sensitivity by about 50 or 100 times, it is unlikely to detect a submarine so deep.


I explained it in the post. The main problem with SONAR detection and sonobouys is that they only search through the mixed layer, and as a ray refracts into the deep sea it leaves a shadow zone, which is most likely where said submarine in. However, the larger sonobouy is designed to drop a longer towed array onto the deep sound channel axis, which would leave no shadow zone, which means that your submarine is quite suceptable to SONAR, especially since there's a great multitude of these sonobouys floating around. Moreover, in order to reinforce this each of the large sonobouys is sorrounded by three in which format the rays would intervene with eachother which would ultimately eliminate the chances of a 'shadow zone'.

Those sonobuoys are going to have pretty long towed arrays... How big are they???

Also explain the MAD then...

Finally, I have one request. I'm going to accept what you RPed so far. Next time, please refrain from running ahead of the action before I can react. Thanks.

Hopefully, we don't kill each other in this RP. :D

The larger sonobouys (I can't remember their designation right now) are fairly large, although the towed array would be able to fit in a compartment underneath the sonobouys, which would be under the surface of the water, about twenty by twenty feet, which is why I dropped these one by one instead of in packs, and why each aircraft only carries one - and why it took all of 'March 15th' to do it. The smaller sonobouys set up in the pattern in which the rays would cut through each other eliminating the shadow zone would be normal sized.

As for the MAD your submarine would have a hint of a distortion on the magnetic field, however, you can disregard it if you wish because it's really not that crucial to the detection of your submarine.

Meh, I drew this a while ago during a AP Physics lesson when my teacher was talking about his good ol' days in the Navy and working with SONAR. It doesn't represent the towed array on the sound channel axis but it does represent SONAR 'rays'.

http://i136.exs.cx/img136/7601/sonarlesson17gh.gif

Okay... I'll come up with a response tomorrow. You'll find a Tranquility has plenty of surprises... :p

Hey 5CN, can I join...please!
I have a brand new mega hell-raiser class of naval ship (VERY big boy) that I need to test, and this looks like the perfect opportunity...
*evil laugh*

As far as I'm concerned with role play is open. It would be nice if you could post the stats to that ship so that I can go over it, that way we get over any problems I might have with it early on. The most probable case is that I don't have any problem with it.

Ship Stats (just figured everyone might like to know, since I'm using eight of these):

NPM-N SS-02C "Sabre" Deisel Electric Sub

Displacement: 1.957 tons (2.165 tons submerged)

Dimensions: 75 meters x 8.5 meters x 6.25 meters

Propulsion: Three Diesel-Electric Motors (Total 6.750 shp), One Compacted "Creeping" Electric Motor (600 shp), Single Shaft, Five-Bladed Screw

Crew: 48

Sonar: MGK-400 Shark Gill LF active/passive, Sintra DUUX 5 low-frequency passive, MG-70 mine detection sonar

Radar: Chiblis Surface Search Radar. Modified SA-17 Tracking Radar (useable at 50 meters depth of less)

Electronics: Vspletsk Combat direction system, MGK-80 Underwater communications, Kiparis, Anis, and Sintez Communications antennas, Medvyedista-945 Navigation system, Molniya-M Satellite communications.

Countermeasures: Bukhta ESM/ECM, MT-70 Sonar intercept receiver,
Nikhrom-M IFF, Radar warning and directional finder, 8 MG-74 Korund noise simulation decoys (mounted in sail).

Design Features: Rubber sonar-absorbing tiles mounted over the boat frame.

Armament: Six 533mm Torpedo Tubes (Four Forward, Two Aft) capable of firing the YJ-8 series anti-ship cruise missiles, Six SA-N-08 Gremlin SAMs mounted atop conning tower, Four external 533mm Torpedo Tubes (single shot) capable of loading the YJ-8 Cruise Missile.

Stores: Fourteen Torpedoes or Twenty-Eight Mines, Two Cruse Missiles

Endurance: 10.200 km / 1.100 km submerged / 32 km full run

Speed-Primary Engines: 20 knots surfaced (13 crusing) / 33 knots submerged (13 crusing)

Speed-Secondary Engine: 2 knots surfaced / 3.5 knots submerged

Maximum Depth: 260 Meters Recomeded, 350 Crush Depth


This represents the first major redesign of Novikov's submarine fleet. Designed over the course of five years, this submarine is a signifigant improvement over the smaller "Swordfish" designs.

Increased range, armament, provisions, detection range, and stealth make this boat fundamentally superior to it's older partners. Incorperating the traditional six-tube design, and making the transition to a complete teardrop-style frame, this boat was actually designed to feel far less "foreign" to captains than the "Swordfish" design did.

The "Sabre" has a signifigant advantage in range over most other Diesel-Electrics, giving it the option of striking deeper out to sea and making it an efficent tool for use against hostile merchants as well as marauding raders. An interesting feature is that, because the secondary engine and the primary engines' batteries are seperate, the ship can theoretically run on batteries for an astounding five days, making this boats possible range far greater, though it's speed performance suffers a coresponding drop.

The armament is again the standard 533mm Torpedo, giving it compatability with almost every navy, though these tubes are specially designed to have the dual function of firing conventional torpedoes and the YJ-8 anti-shipping cruse missile. This gives it a deadly touch, particularly when combined with this subs decreased detectability and increased sonar range and clarity.

I've been really busy... I'll try to post later today or sometime tomorrow... Almost Spring Break...

Almost Spring Break...

Yep, same here.

Tomorrow is my last day...

ME TOO! (What the hell is with that?)
Where do you live? (You don't attend school in Janesville Wisconsin, do you?!)

I go to Hunter College High School in New York City, the school that produced this year's Intel Winner.

We're separate from New York's Board of Education as we're part of the City University of New York, so we have breaks way separate from everyone else...

Ah. Strange coincidence then.

Alright, there's some things I would like to point out about that ship:

1. It's feasible.

However...

A) It won't be able to turn.
B) Thanks for the humongous magazines that behemoth must carry.
C)48" guns? I think not! That's 1219.2 millimeters... the largest gun in history was the Bertha, which was 800mms, and that fired a total of around twenty shells throughout all six years of the Second World War. Frankly, there's no fin that I know which can propel a 48" shell. Moreover, after firing it the gun would suffer from extensive overheating, meaning it's only going to be good for one shot and even that shot can be short on accuracy. The shells is also going to move slower than a tortoise.

But I guess that's it.

The Ship's stats are posted. And I don't plan on godmodding or being a "i fire 100 of teh nookes! Yoo DIE!" type rper, and I'm not. This ship has BUILT-IN flaws if you read it and catch them; but it will be very hard to sink. I also don't plan on losing this ship, I just made it, but I also don't plan on this dominating the war. I won't use it like a god weapon; I would HATE myself forever if I reuined the rp, because I'm ususally the person scolding the people that do. My eping in the first post would have been better, but I typed ALOT of stuff so you'd know what the ship was. I won't improperly use this ship, trust me. If you EVER think I am, have any questions, concerns or otherwise, feel free to ask me. You can post here, TG me, e-mail me @ razgriz01@gmail.com , or MSN/AIM me.

Alright, there's some things I would like to point out about that ship:

1. It's feasible.

However...

A) It won't be able to turn.
B) Thanks for the humongous magazines that behemoth must carry.
C)48" guns? I think not! That's 1219.2 millimeters... the largest gun in history was the Bertha, which was 800mms, and that fired a total of around twenty shells throughout all six years of the Second World War. Frankly, there's no fin that I know which can propel a 48" shell. Moreover, after firing it the gun would suffer from extensive overheating, meaning it's only going to be good for one shot and even that shot can be short on accuracy. The shells is also going to move slower than a tortoise.

But I guess that's it.

Two of the fusion reactors are devoted SOLEY to turning. And yes, it still takes it FOREVER to turn about even as little as 15 degrees, I'll agree.

48" guns are feasable by both physics and manufacturing limits, I have consulted my physics teacher (no joke, we did the math), and nuemerous other sources within nationstates. I spent nearly four months making sure EVERY aspect of this ship was real. I'm at a friends house, but when I get back I can post the physics up for proof if you REALLY need it. And yes, I agree, it won't fire often. Probably not at all in this conflict. And the ship is large enough to withstand the shock, although yes, it does produce quite a bit of it. And the shell is a two-stage shell; the initial explosion propels it near the end of the barrel, and the second, much larger explosion propels it the rest of the distance. I will also agree that it's accuracy is somewhat limited, but the length of the barrel (found by using a shell size - gun dimension algorythm, yes there's actually a fairly sturdy algorythm to do this, although it has only about 85% accuracy when the Mean Absolute Deviation is found, it's close enough in my opinion) is enough to straighten it's course enough to be useable. I do disagree with the distance, however. The shell has enough mass that, once it's propelled, and fired at a high arc, it actually can use a bit of the earth's curvature to it's advantage in addition to how normal shells operate when fired. (I.E. spining to counter-act gravity for a while and the like) And the relatively weak force of gravity (9.8m/s) and air resistance at sea level is practically neglegable as a detrrent (seriously) allow the shell to go far. It's a simple force equation. D= vi t/ 1/2 a (t^2) . Also, when the shell moves down and around part of the earth's arc, this GREATLY helps to speed it up. It's not the fact that the shell is going THAT fast (although it regains nearly all of it's speed when it was fired including air resistance, because an object that rises and falls forms a perabula if you take it's speed; it has to hit the water at the same speed it left the water. Basic Physics), it's the fact that's it's so big that let's it punch holes through ships.

Thanks for the humongous magazines...? What are you saying here...?

errr..sorry. the distance equation should be d= v t / 1/2a t^2 ... sorry.
and the force equation is essentially F=ma-9.8x

Well, I'm not worried with the stats...as long as the role play is good tis' all wonderful.

Well, I'm not worried with the stats...as long as the role play is good tis' all wonderful.
Cool, thanks. I promise I won't let you down. BTW, I think you have about the most hilarious sig I've EVER seen. I was cracking up about it for two days. I can't believe someone actually said that. Anyway, I'm also giving you guys time to prep for me (set up ambushes and so), and this thing isn't exactly "stealthy". Also, b/c it's so big, it's pretty much a torpedo magnet; the only way to get a torpedo to do otherwise is through ECM, which takes time.

5CN there were actually fifteen torpedoes going for your submarine, not three.

I have questions about 5CN's post as well:

How far away from the sub were the torpedoes when they were detected?

Did I read it wrong, or did 5CN say his sub fired a torpedo with a 25 megaton warhead?

How far away from the sub did the 25 megaton warhead explode?

How far away from the straits was the 25 megaton when it went off?


A 25 megaton warhead sub-surface blast would vaporize about 3 cubic miles of ocean. The underwater shockwave would crumple any submarine within about 5 miles, and probably destroy any subs within 10 miles. Detonating at a depth of 250 meters, the fireball would breach the surface, creating a massive blast of heat and radiation which would probably kill everything within a couple of miles. The shockwave from a 25 megaton sub-surface burst would drive tsunamis against the nearby shorelines, destroying ports and killing thousands. The tsunami would be channeled to greater height and power by the narrow Straits, and any vessels actually in the Strait would almost certainly be destroyed.



TEO

Sorry... I apologize for the error in my post. I meant 25 kilotons, not megatons...

The torpedo explosion was over 100 kilometers from the straits. According to estimates, the distance between the torpedo and the submarine was 5-15 kilometers depending on the acceleration of the torpedo itself.

Thomp, if you don't plan on losing the ship, then don't plan on keeping it in combat too much... After discussing some things with FCN and the OMP guys, there are some great ways to make your ship hit the bottom, or at least make it too risky to keep it in the battle.

I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but you shouldn't rule it out.

Sorry... I apologize for the error in my post. I meant 25 kilotons, not megatons...

The torpedo explosion was over 100 kilometers from the straits. According to estimates, the distance between the torpedo and the submarine was 5-15 kilometers depending on the acceleration of the torpedo itself.

Gonna quibble here.

Assuming your torpedo was moving at 100 KPH, it would only be a little over .8 kilometers from the sub after 30 seconds (the time stated in your post). Even if we assume that the sub was already moving away from the firing position at 100 KPH, the sub would still be within the primary blast radius of the nuclear explosion. Using a nuke to break up a mass attack on your sub would work ... but using a Hiroshima-yield nuke at the ranges in question would also doom the submarine. Even scaling down the yield to a tactical weapon (3-5 KT), would probably result in the submarine being severely damaged.

The two biggest problems your sub would face would be the initial pressure wave (which would probably rupture the seals on every through-hull fitting on the boat- including the main shaft seals), and the reverse pressure wave (as the water nearby rushes back to fill the vacuum created by the explosion). The initial wave would almost certainly deafen every single member of the crew as it tossed the sub around like a cork in a bathtub. The people inside the boat would be like beans in a maraca, and the casualties would probably be close to 100% from that alone. Rubber seals and anechoic coatings would probably dissolve under the combination of heat and pressure, the rudder and dive planes would almost certainly be jammed (if not torn off entirely), and the screw(s) driving the boat would almost certainly be warped and bent by the pressure wave (if not torn off). All of the aft ballast tanks would collapse under the pounding, destroying the reserve flotation air stored there and crippling the sub's buoyancy. The sail (or conning tower, for those of you who aren't submariners) would probably be severely twisted and warped (assuming it, too, did not tear off entirely).

Assuming that the crew survived the initial shockwave, they would have to deal with several fatal engineering casualties (the Navy term for emergency is casualty) at once: The main shaft seals would have blown, so the machinery spaces aft would be rapidly filling with water. The aft ballast system would also be destroyed, so there would be no way to compensate for the increasing weight of the stern as the machinery spaces filled. The screws would be damaged or completely missing, which would preclude using the boat's power to climb to the surface. Even if the screws were still barely functional, the main shaft gears would most likely be warped and stripped by the enormous torque against the shaft during the shockwave.

Before the crew would really have had time to do more than begin to grasp their plight, the reverse shockwave would arrive, tumbling the sub back toward the point of the explosion. Any personnel still mobile after the first shock would be shaken around like gravel in a can again.

So the few shocked, concussed, and battered survivors might live long enough to be aware that the sub was assuming a bow-up attitude as the flooded machinery spaces aft dragged the boat down to the bottom. Don't know off-hand what the crush depth is for your subs, but we'll assume that the boat makes it to the bottom without imploding from external pressure. The impact with the ocean bottom would probably rupture bulkheads and water-tight doors, ruining what was left of the sub's structural integrity, but- even if some of the crew still lived, there would be no way to rescue them. They would already be too deep for emergency egress procedures, and far too deep for divers. So the few surviving crew would slowly freeze to death at about the same time they passed out from hypoxia (the reactor is unlikely to function once the sub goes vertical, and most of the main electrical circuits would be destroyed by the simultaneous catastrophes. Without electricity, the air scrubbers won't work, and neither will the lights or heaters).


TEO

Thomp, if you don't plan on losing the ship, then don't plan on keeping it in combat too much... After discussing some things with FCN and the OMP guys, there are some great ways to make your ship hit the bottom, or at least make it too risky to keep it in the battle.

I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but you shouldn't rule it out.
oh, okay. do as you will. My post will come today @ around 4:30 PM Central American Time. BTW, what better way to hit a gigantic ship than with a gigantic sub? :p
And I think your sub's deployment was perhaps a *bit* fast, but oh well.
RPage to come soon...

Sorry to quibble, but according to my calculations, which could be off, the distance should be at least 2 kilometers...

I could always change my torp into a non-nuclear one to "save" my ship. Just a question, TOE, since you seem to better understand nuclear payloads and explosions better than I can. What would happen if you have a very strong metallic ceramic about 2 km from a 15 KT nuke?

I could always change my torp into a non-nuclear one to "save" my ship. Just a question, TOE, since you seem to better understand nuclear payloads and explosions better than I can. What would happen if you have a very strong metallic ceramic about 2 km from a 15 KT nuke

In water, the results won't be pretty. I'm no expert, but I would guess that the shockwave from a nuke of that size would transmit through the water to break the back of your sub. Then again, I could be wrong.

Sorry to quibble, but according to my calculations, which could be off, the distance should be at least 2 kilometers...

I could always change my torp into a non-nuclear one to "save" my ship. Just a question, TOE, since you seem to better understand nuclear payloads and explosions better than I can. What would happen if you have a very strong metallic ceramic about 2 km from a 15 KT nuke?


I could be wrong. I just assumed that the speed was 100 KPH for the torpedo (100 KPH = 1.6666667 KPM = .028 KPS) and 100 KPH for the sub. Sub movement + torpedo movement = .028 KPS x 2 = .056 kilometers per second x 30 seconds = 1.68 kilometers. 1.68 kilometers is well within the primary destruction radius of either of the warheads you mentioned. As I stated before, using something as small as a 3 - 5 Kilotonne tactical nuke would be better, but would still cause massive damage to the sub at those ranges.

As for your metalloceramic exposed to a nuke, a lot would depend on the charactersitics of the metalloceramic object. Ceramics are generally resist penetration and wear better than an equivalent mass of steel, but they are brittle. Once the strength moduli are exceeded, ceramics tend to shatter. A 1-meter solid cube of the stuff at that range would receive a significant amount of heat and blast damage which would probably ablate the exposed surfaces and send it tumbling for a few hundred meters. The cube's corners would likely be chipped and cracked- if not entirely broken off. The cube itself would probably survive (retain enough of its original mass and shape to be recognizable) but a lot would depend on what sort of impacts the cube was exposed to by the shockwave.

Other geometric shapes such as cylinders (I'm assuming you're referring to the submarine's hulls) exposed to a 15 KT underwater burst would probably react pretty much the way I described it in my last post. The "people tank" (inner pressure hull) would probably survive just fine. The external hull (where all of the ballast tanks, dive planes, rudders, etc are located) would likely be seriously damaged. Massive cracks in the hull; shattered, jammed or missing external protrusions (sail, rudders, screws, dive planes); and (worst of all) ruptured seals on through-hull fittings (shaft seals, water intakes, torpedo tubes, etc). If the shockwave hit your sub from dead astern, it would be similar to getting hit by a giant flyswatter made of concrete. The sub would be instantly propelled forward at close to the speed of sound (in water).

I use ceramic castings myself for a wide variety of military purposes. I usually use a sandwich of ceramic, carbon-fiber, and steel (or titanium) for my military equipment to take advantage of the lighter weight and greater overall resistance to penetration. But, if you're up close and personal with a nuke, nothing is strong enough, and the lighter weight works against you.

Hope this helps.


TEO

oh, okay. do as you will. My post will come today @ around 4:30 PM Central American Time. BTW, what better way to hit a gigantic ship than with a gigantic sub? :p
And I think your sub's deployment was perhaps a *bit* fast, but oh well.
RPage to come soon...
I took the liberty of timing my subs arrival with your ships... Call it a little time warp, so the subs arrive just before you get to Tariq, as my subs can move a little bit faster than your ship.

Also, I haven't checked the updated post (response to come on Saturday) but my torpedoes were coming in a pack of three, in three different directions...I believe.