Austar Union
14-03-2005, 04:34
Being a former member of the International Incidences forum, I suppose I have enough relevant experience, to understand the confusion when it comes to real world claims. Claims such as these are always under question, in any roleplay I participated in, or which I have read, unless of course the authors in question are particularly respectable and do hold a degree of understanding toward the whole matter regarding the nationstates multiverse, and how to roleplay real nation claims effectively. And since it would be particularly unreasonable to say that either side of an arguement is right in what they say, I can only personally think of one way of which real nation claims would work, without quarrel over whose land is whose' as often as it should.
The Problem
Part A: Recognising Claims as Legitamite
I would say that the main problem regarding the nationstates multiverse and real nation claims, would most probably have to be that everyone wants to be England, France, Japan, and the list go's on. Unfortunatly, once one person claims the 'right' to roleplay themselves as France for example, nobody else in reality can claim the 'right' to also roleplay as France. And you would think that the simple answer would be that this second person should just accept that you have taken France, would it not? Wrong.
What if you got told after six months as roleplaying as France that somebody else had been doing the same, except for twelve months. Each of you have put in just as much effort, each of you have been using that claim to the best of your ability, each of you have equal 'right' to that claim. Now there poses a problem, should you abandon your whole history of roleplaying as France for some chum that comes along, or should you argue your right to continue roleplaying? Thinking about that very situation, I too came into contact with that very problem you see in the example. I considered myself to be roleplaying a particular land for a long time, and I had even created a very good map to suit. Then one day someone came along who had that same claim for even longer than myself, and told me that I couldnt be Germany as I had been roleplaying for at least six to eight months.
Naturally, I was over the moon when I heard this request. I had been working so hard to roleplay it all out effectively, then some chum comes along and tells me to move on now? Hardly, I was definatly not going to move along and lost all my hard earned work and reputation as that nation, just because another group of people recognised that fella as Germany instead of me. And now, you have a problem. You are unwilling to back down toward someone with an older, yet just as legitamite claim (of course you're unwilling would you in this situation?), and at the same time if someone comes along with a less longer claim than you, they are unwilling to back down, and you are also.
Hopefully, this does illustrate both sides, how all people really have the right to claim who they want, as long as they are willing to be legitamite about it. For example both Dr_Twist and I had the right to roleplay as Austria, for that was how we had both been roleplaying for a good ten months before we realised the existance of each other, and finally tried to roleplay together. It was darn near impossible without some mutual understanding. I hope you too have gained some understanding from this bit of my guide.
Part B: Problems Regarding Multiple Earth's
See, now that you hopefully can understand both sides of the coin when it comes to two people with the same legitamite claim, I suppose we can move on to discuss how others seem to 'solve' the problem, and how this has resulted with more problems than when the United States stock market crashed in 1987, 88, and 89. Many have already recognised the above problem, and this is how most have chosen to solve the problem.
Multiple Earth Recognition Threads.
Simple ways to solve complicated problems, never work out for the best I tell you. See, people have recognised the problem illustrated in Part A, and this is how they have gone to solve the problem, basically creating whole new 'earth threads', recognising others who want claims already taken, and ignoring all those which have been claimed in the last thread. And in the meantime, the very existance of these threads leads to a smaller, controlled environment where basically people can only roleplay within that environment, all because they have to ignore the other earth threads because it conflicts. This means that if you are a member of one of the earth threads, you could be missing out on some quality roleplay from some of the authors of other worlds.
If you understand this concept, you are ready to move onto the next step, but keep reading if you dont.
Since your recognised claims are very small in comparison to one earth combined, everyone roleplaying with each other, the International Incidences forum has fractioned into smaller groups who effectively saying to each other, "You cant play properly, so we're going over here...". The question is, is there a way so we can all play together, without having the problem of run-ins with other roleplayers with the same legitamite claims? Is there a way of simply having one earth thread, where everyone can get what they want, without conflict with other roleplayers?
I believe the answer is yes, as long as everyone is willing to give it their best determined effort, and recognition of a newer way of roleplaying the Nationstates Multiverse, and the Real Earth Claims which everyone seems to enjoy.
My Solution Given
I regard this solution as being the best, and most effective when regarding real nation claims and the nationstates multiverse. Not only does it allow everyone to basically have the claim that they particularly want, but it also reduces the confontation rate by an enormous amount, if everyone is aware of the solution, and way to roleplay this concept effectively.
STEP 1: Recognise all claims, within reason.
I would have to say the first step to solving the fractured probem, is to have everyone respect everyone elses claim to a real nation, regardless of whether you agree with it or not. Of course, this comes in some moderation, where basically if someone was to claim to own the world then ignoring could be considered in order. But for example's sake, lets just say somebody claims to have Germany, and you do also. The first step, is to recognise it.
STEP 2: Change the Way You Call Things
One major difference between real life and nationstates, is that no matter what you call something in real life, it will always be as it is. However in the Nationstates realm, whatever you call it, will be what it is. So if you for example claim to have bombed Berlin in this example, who knows if you have claimed your own Berlin, or their Berlin. Simply, you can refer to their Berlin as for example 'Credonian Berlin', or 'Austarian Berlin'. In this example, the two players will be Credonia and Austar Union, each with a claim to Germany. Effectively, you will be telling them that "This is the place where I bombed exactly..."
Refeering to only 'Berlin', will mean you just started a war on RL, player unoccupied Germany. There will always be more than one Germany, whether you like it or not.
STEP 3: Change the Way You See Things
See, in this example now you are able to have two Germany's attacking each other. Unfortunatly, when you try to imagine a map, it doesnt quite work out, so lets think about this for a moment. Is there a way you can both agree on, which allows you to use your geographical advantage in this roleplay? Perhaps you might discuss with that player about YOUR Germany being on the eastern border of THEIR Germany. I find that mostly, if two players can actually agree on how things are to be, arguements will be small and infrequent.
One major way I think will be how you can roleplay if for example, without fighting over how things will be, is to perhaps consider their Germany on a different, yet similar looking continent. Its simple this way. You have your fleets arriving to their version of Europe, as do they if they choose to. This way, you dont have to quarrel over who owns Germany, because really, it doesnt matter too much. You get to keep Germany and so do they, unless you ICly occupy their nation. If you occupy them, then you occupy them. I think that would already be agreed upon.
---------------------------------------------------
Point is, I think it can be really messy if you try to wrap your head around this issue, especially if you dont understand it. Make sure you understand it fully before putting it into practise, like anything. Once you do, and you manage to have most of the nationstates world using this same policy, I think you will find that it is probably the best solution I have seen so far. Give it a try, it worked for me for a very long time...
- Ash
Player of Austar Union
The Problem
Part A: Recognising Claims as Legitamite
I would say that the main problem regarding the nationstates multiverse and real nation claims, would most probably have to be that everyone wants to be England, France, Japan, and the list go's on. Unfortunatly, once one person claims the 'right' to roleplay themselves as France for example, nobody else in reality can claim the 'right' to also roleplay as France. And you would think that the simple answer would be that this second person should just accept that you have taken France, would it not? Wrong.
What if you got told after six months as roleplaying as France that somebody else had been doing the same, except for twelve months. Each of you have put in just as much effort, each of you have been using that claim to the best of your ability, each of you have equal 'right' to that claim. Now there poses a problem, should you abandon your whole history of roleplaying as France for some chum that comes along, or should you argue your right to continue roleplaying? Thinking about that very situation, I too came into contact with that very problem you see in the example. I considered myself to be roleplaying a particular land for a long time, and I had even created a very good map to suit. Then one day someone came along who had that same claim for even longer than myself, and told me that I couldnt be Germany as I had been roleplaying for at least six to eight months.
Naturally, I was over the moon when I heard this request. I had been working so hard to roleplay it all out effectively, then some chum comes along and tells me to move on now? Hardly, I was definatly not going to move along and lost all my hard earned work and reputation as that nation, just because another group of people recognised that fella as Germany instead of me. And now, you have a problem. You are unwilling to back down toward someone with an older, yet just as legitamite claim (of course you're unwilling would you in this situation?), and at the same time if someone comes along with a less longer claim than you, they are unwilling to back down, and you are also.
Hopefully, this does illustrate both sides, how all people really have the right to claim who they want, as long as they are willing to be legitamite about it. For example both Dr_Twist and I had the right to roleplay as Austria, for that was how we had both been roleplaying for a good ten months before we realised the existance of each other, and finally tried to roleplay together. It was darn near impossible without some mutual understanding. I hope you too have gained some understanding from this bit of my guide.
Part B: Problems Regarding Multiple Earth's
See, now that you hopefully can understand both sides of the coin when it comes to two people with the same legitamite claim, I suppose we can move on to discuss how others seem to 'solve' the problem, and how this has resulted with more problems than when the United States stock market crashed in 1987, 88, and 89. Many have already recognised the above problem, and this is how most have chosen to solve the problem.
Multiple Earth Recognition Threads.
Simple ways to solve complicated problems, never work out for the best I tell you. See, people have recognised the problem illustrated in Part A, and this is how they have gone to solve the problem, basically creating whole new 'earth threads', recognising others who want claims already taken, and ignoring all those which have been claimed in the last thread. And in the meantime, the very existance of these threads leads to a smaller, controlled environment where basically people can only roleplay within that environment, all because they have to ignore the other earth threads because it conflicts. This means that if you are a member of one of the earth threads, you could be missing out on some quality roleplay from some of the authors of other worlds.
If you understand this concept, you are ready to move onto the next step, but keep reading if you dont.
Since your recognised claims are very small in comparison to one earth combined, everyone roleplaying with each other, the International Incidences forum has fractioned into smaller groups who effectively saying to each other, "You cant play properly, so we're going over here...". The question is, is there a way so we can all play together, without having the problem of run-ins with other roleplayers with the same legitamite claims? Is there a way of simply having one earth thread, where everyone can get what they want, without conflict with other roleplayers?
I believe the answer is yes, as long as everyone is willing to give it their best determined effort, and recognition of a newer way of roleplaying the Nationstates Multiverse, and the Real Earth Claims which everyone seems to enjoy.
My Solution Given
I regard this solution as being the best, and most effective when regarding real nation claims and the nationstates multiverse. Not only does it allow everyone to basically have the claim that they particularly want, but it also reduces the confontation rate by an enormous amount, if everyone is aware of the solution, and way to roleplay this concept effectively.
STEP 1: Recognise all claims, within reason.
I would have to say the first step to solving the fractured probem, is to have everyone respect everyone elses claim to a real nation, regardless of whether you agree with it or not. Of course, this comes in some moderation, where basically if someone was to claim to own the world then ignoring could be considered in order. But for example's sake, lets just say somebody claims to have Germany, and you do also. The first step, is to recognise it.
STEP 2: Change the Way You Call Things
One major difference between real life and nationstates, is that no matter what you call something in real life, it will always be as it is. However in the Nationstates realm, whatever you call it, will be what it is. So if you for example claim to have bombed Berlin in this example, who knows if you have claimed your own Berlin, or their Berlin. Simply, you can refer to their Berlin as for example 'Credonian Berlin', or 'Austarian Berlin'. In this example, the two players will be Credonia and Austar Union, each with a claim to Germany. Effectively, you will be telling them that "This is the place where I bombed exactly..."
Refeering to only 'Berlin', will mean you just started a war on RL, player unoccupied Germany. There will always be more than one Germany, whether you like it or not.
STEP 3: Change the Way You See Things
See, in this example now you are able to have two Germany's attacking each other. Unfortunatly, when you try to imagine a map, it doesnt quite work out, so lets think about this for a moment. Is there a way you can both agree on, which allows you to use your geographical advantage in this roleplay? Perhaps you might discuss with that player about YOUR Germany being on the eastern border of THEIR Germany. I find that mostly, if two players can actually agree on how things are to be, arguements will be small and infrequent.
One major way I think will be how you can roleplay if for example, without fighting over how things will be, is to perhaps consider their Germany on a different, yet similar looking continent. Its simple this way. You have your fleets arriving to their version of Europe, as do they if they choose to. This way, you dont have to quarrel over who owns Germany, because really, it doesnt matter too much. You get to keep Germany and so do they, unless you ICly occupy their nation. If you occupy them, then you occupy them. I think that would already be agreed upon.
---------------------------------------------------
Point is, I think it can be really messy if you try to wrap your head around this issue, especially if you dont understand it. Make sure you understand it fully before putting it into practise, like anything. Once you do, and you manage to have most of the nationstates world using this same policy, I think you will find that it is probably the best solution I have seen so far. Give it a try, it worked for me for a very long time...
- Ash
Player of Austar Union