NationStates Jolt Archive

[El Provencio, Spain]
The young and the old congregated in the town square of the small village of El Provencio creating quite a stir, cacophony of sounds compose of sporadic noises made by the mass of bodies or the strings of speech coming from a myriad of directions enshrouding the once silent area. It was truly a miracle that some two thousand people had been able to pack inside the small square and the strain showed as some began to diffuse into the streets with led from the square to the extremeties of the village, however, still making sure that they would be able to hear fine. The throng began to raise their right hands into the air in a fascist style salute yelling,"Viva Catalan. Viva Espana. Abajo con los putos Communistas!"

It was strange how most of the rural population had suddenly risen to the banner of the upstart American boy with Spanish citizenship, given to him because his mother was Spanish. The rise of the young eigteen year old Jonatan Catalan, as he was known in Spain, was rather strange as the only reason he had come to the darned country was to complete his university track promised to him by an American consulate. Of course, he had come all his summers and even some winters, sometimes even thrice a year, but had it not been for his time at the universities of Spain, meeting students who agreed with his ultra-right wing nationalistic, yet tolerant, views he would have never had the chance to conjur such a popular movement. In fact, the massive crowd present at El Provencio was just one of thousands dotting the country side of Spain all prepared by cronies of Catalan, and in two days the largest mass rally of Catalan's supporters would find their way to Madrid where, in front of the PSOE headquarters, they would begin their protest. Indeed, the power which Catalan wielded was proved by the drastic measures employed by the fearful Socialist. Just months before one of Catalan's mass rallies, at Barcelona that time, had ended in fiasco as a police team raided the compounds of the amphitheater and had arrested key members of Catalan's 'party', the Partido Ultra Nacionalista Iberico del Obrero or PUNIO (Spanish for fist, although that spelt 'puno' with the n with the tilde over it.). However, that breach of the constitution would prove a painful decision of the PSOE as Catalan, himself not arrested due to political pressures, took the PSOE to court and had several of its own key members, including the Secretary of Foreign Affairs, arrested for years in federal prisons.

In order to follow up with the varied success Catalan decided to launch a massive country wide program in which his rhetoric would be preached and as he claimed,"would incite the mobilization of the Spanish population to my cause and will lead to an across the board revolution which will sweep the current government of its feet and put a more nationalist, and thusly a more efective, government in its place. The Socialist must not be allowed to rule Spain as their regime will mean the end of a free capitalist society. Spain was the bastion of freedom in western Europe during the 50s when the Soviets threatened to roll over Western Germany and France, but now our heritage and our legacy is threatened by a lot of incompetents. The revolution will not falter!"

So, the first round of rallies, the small villages, had kicked off, and El Provencio, home town of the immediate family of Jonatan Catalan, including his mother, his uncle (and his wife and daughter), and his grandfather. They all found themselves at the same square, awaiting the same man, the man who threatened an entire administration, and a man who promised a glorious future for Spain. The crowd rose in a might roar as that man, Jonathan Catalan, gracefully swept up to the stage in front of the entire crowd of two thousand souls, garbed in black dress, only further darkened by his black as the night parka, covering from his neck to his boots. He gave a right stiff arm salute to the crowd, and the people returned it, and he yelled,"Viva Espana! When the people returned his hail accordingly he continued,"People of Spain, you have been cheated from a free government. These Communist who claim to have been elected for the good of the country are imposters, and for all they have managed to say they are still covered by the thin facade they used from the beginning. As learned people you must see it! They think you stupid, they think you country hicks, but I know your true potential. You are all the base of this country, without you there would be no Spain! They claim to work for you, yet they call you foolish? Do they not trust you? No! So, how could they work for you? It's obvious my people of Spain, they are lying to you, using you for their own advantages. Every policy they have signed is for themselves. They are no better than the Moors of old, when they came to Spain and stole our riches. The history of such people has marks all over the world. Russia, Communist from around 1921 to 1989 has suffered the consequences - once on par population wise with the United States, Stalin's purges and Hitler's murders have caused the country's demographics to decline considerably, and they still suffer from the same problem. Spain herself had her own brief moment of socialism. During the 1930s, after Primo de Rivera's disastrous regime, the Socialist attempted to gain power under Azana, and the only event wrought was the expansion of the Communist Party (UGT) and the Anarchist Party (CNT) - it took a civil war to stop that such a disastrous marraige between two evils! Now, we are presented with the same instance but we know enough to stop it early on. So, follow me and follow me to Madrid, where we shall topple our enemies and it its place craft a government which will serve for the glory of Spain! I promise all of you that the days of King Fernando de Aragon e Isabella de Castilla are not far enough, and empire and power awaits us at the far expanses of this earth!"

The crowd cheered as he gave another stiff arm salute, then another one. The rise of fascism was not far, and in all truth the people of the country side had been fooled. But, that was government, was it not? The entire purpose was to fool the people. Hitler fooled the masses, Bush fooled the masses. Were they geniuses? The obvious answer was no, and it was correct - they were not - but they were considerably smarter than the country people, who failed to know their right from left, and it was them that gave them a distinct advantage. Indeed, should the Communist decide to run a rally the very next day the people of El Provencio were likely to sway to their side immediately, except for the diehards - that's how easy the common masses were moved. Catalan ensured himself that he would be the one to use this to his own advantage, and that he did that day at El Provencio, as his hench men and subservient PUNIO party members were doing elsewhere, all over Spain. With a smug look on his white face, ugly long nose portruding in a true Spanish manner, he walked off the stage. His nose had presented problems earlier, as it was a nose built of Jewish (his father) and of Moor (his mother, as a Spaniard, obviously had ancient Moor genetics) blood, but the people of Spain had grown to tolerate him as he had proven himself to be a true fascist, nationalist.

It was strange, however. Catalan did not consider himself fascist, just nationalist. He truly had nothing against other religions, indeed, his friends in the states were comprised of people from different races and belief systems, but he had to do what he had to do to rein in the populace to his cause, and that would inevitable conclude in an action tatamount to the infamous inquisition of Ferdinand and Isabel in the 15th and early 16th century. He would either have to enforce laws oppressing the Islamic, South American, Mexican, and Slavic populations in Spain, or he would have to expulse them. The latter was not an option since the Slavic population was the focal point of Spain's agricultural success and the sudden surge in its population numers. Doing so would mean signing a death warrant for Spain and would put an early end to any regime Catalan managed to install in Spain, which would be shaky to start with - just as Franco's Falangist regime had been in the 40s and 50s. It would take time to consolidate Catalan's power in Spain, but under no circumstances would that detract from Catalan's policies of the further glorification of Spain.

Some would claim Catalan's attitude as haughty, as he had no way to ensure his rise to power. Catalan claimed it was inevitable, as proved in his 13 Febuary 2005 interview with the Spanish El Pais, a very large newspaper bordello in Spain which had subscribers all over the world. He said,"A PSOE leadership in Spain cannot, and will not, survive. Frankly put, the people will not accept said administration. Instead, I will be put to lead Spain to her glory and I promise you that the Spain of the year to come will not be the Spain you see today. That I swear."

The skeptics claimed that the world would support the PSOE, but Catalan chuckeled and replied,"They can believe what they want, but could they believe their eyes when my wanderwaffe rolls through the streets of Madrid? My complete victory is inevitable, that I assure you. If the world comes to aid against my plight then I shall destroy whatever they send. I cannot lose."

It was, indeed, true, Catalan had been able to gain huge funds, in the billions of United States dollars, from thousands of companies owned by fascist minded individuals, including companies in Northern Italy and Flanders - both in France and Belgium -, as well as dozens of corporations in the United States. With this money Catalan had not just funded his tour around Spain but the creation of ten gargantuan factories in Castilla la Mancha, on territories formerly owned by Catalan himself which had been vinyards - spanning areas people could not imagine - and the factories, all subterranean, were already prepared to begin to chug out the wanderwaffe Catalan had spoken of in his interview. Although it was in small portions even small amounts would render the ordnance of the PSOE absolutely obsolete. For one, a new anti-tank gun, the Javalina, designed after the American Javelin, could pierce through any armored rating the Spanish military boasted of, including the vaunted Leopard IIs. Another wanderwaffe was the new Panzerkampfwaggen XI main battle tank, which in total, twenty were planned for construction, ten of which were completed. This alone took about one hundred and sixty million of Catalan's total treasury. Finally, due to limitations Catalan was able to only produce five of his much needed MMA-A3 Falcon air superiority aircraft. But even those five were sure to make a difference. All of these weapons were stored in subterranean storage centers, ready to be tapped into for the uprising.

However, for Catalan to surely succeed he would need the support of foreign nations in order to fund for the creation of more of these weapons. The twenty-five BredtSverdt' could most likely deal with Spain's entire armored fist, however, more small arms were needed, and more aircraft were needed. But Jonatan Catalan knew that the most likely case was that the foreign world would turn a blind eye to him, so he prepared his plans for the eventual rising, a rising which would rival that of 1936, with the resources he had at hand. But first, he had to worry about Madrid.

OOC: Oooooh! Fascists in Spain while a semi-fascist ideology begins to take root in Peru.....

Spanish-speaking Axis potential there. Just what we need if Restoration France goes bye-bye.

[TAG]

OOC: Oooooh! Fascists in Spain while a semi-fascist ideology begins to take root in Peru.....

Spanish-speaking Axis potential there. Just what we need if Restoration France goes bye-bye.

[TAG]
[OOC: Yes, that is certainly a possibility. I shall have fun role playing a Spanish revolution, although it will take the same path as that of the Spanish '36-'39 Civil War and will probably be more abrupt for role playings sake, although, truly, I'm contemplating a civil war, instead of just the coup de' etat that I was originally going for. I'm sounding very confusing. However, I assure all that it will be a good read.]

Fisrt, you are not a AMW member yet! Second, I play the US, it is called Quinntonia in AMW and there is NO WAY that you would have been able to aquire billions of Q/USD for a few reasons
i)Not that many people in Quinntonia would want to support this
ii)There is no way that those large sums could trickle into your economy without my government finding out and stoppping it, and probably imprisoning the business men.
iii)Now, I am willing to say that there may have been a few Quinntonian businessmen that are very misguided and willing to support this, but you would be talking money in the tens of millions at best, and even then, over half of your supporters Stateside would have been caught and imprisoned. So, rethink how many troops and such you would have, and wait to get your endrosements before moving on with this in AMW.
WWJD
Amen.

OOC: Welcome to AMW Macabee! North Yaman is a socialist Strainist nation, on an imaginary peninsula north of Korea....so we'll probably stay pretty far outside of each others spheres of influence. Have fun with the civil war...

-Mioka Ro, Socialist Federal Dominion of North Yaman-

With the morning playing of the national anthem over, the capitals loudspeakers go silent. From every corner of the sprawling city, workers pull themselves from bed and ready for a day in the factories of this industrial center of North Yaman. Waking with the workers, some of the cities citizens make money off selling quick breakfasts and newspapers to the mass of workers. Walking to their duties, the Yamani read the news in their native Lyongese.

This morning the top headlines read "War in China: Sino begins barrage of border provinces". The article continues on, speaking of the sheltering of Xiannese aircraft in Yamani airbases and the atrocities of the 'imperialist nationalists' in Sino. Also making it to front page is the article "The fall of Europe: Rise of nationalism in Spain". The article remains hopeful for the world cause of socialism, but not in this new Spain.

Fisrt, you are not a AMW member yet! Second, I play the US, it is called Quinntonia in AMW and there is NO WAY that you would have been able to aquire billions of Q/USD for a few reasons
i)Not that many people in Quinntonia would want to support this
ii)There is no way that those large sums could trickle into your economy without my government finding out and stoppping it, and probably imprisoning the business men.
iii)Now, I am willing to say that there may have been a few Quinntonian businessmen that are very misguided and willing to support this, but you would be talking money in the tens of millions at best, and even then, over half of your supporters Stateside would have been caught and imprisoned. So, rethink how many troops and such you would have, and wait to get your endrosements before moving on with this in AMW.
WWJD
Amen.

[OOC:

1. Well, as a realist the chance that your government would be 100% behind your government's policies is zilch. Not only that, but as a capitalist society (if you are one) you have no control of over your business.
2. There is a chance, because your government wouldn't know it was going to Catalan. Or the goverment would know, but the funding was done over a period of years, before the radicalization of Catalan's policies.
3. Well, you don't have to do jack because Spain and Western Europe has more than enough business to endorse me with the money I need...so bam, case closed..the money was funded to me by Spanish auto, cement, aircraft, and military factories....

There, no more problem...and I believe I have two endorsements now.]

OOC: Great, yet another dictatorship in Europe...Well, at least it ain't the return of the monarchy...Then the Holy League would become practically unstoppable. I don't really have much to say now, but I'll just give you a brief summary of my nation. After years of the corruption that followed the fall of Communism, Vladimir Putin was elected President. The country is now on an economic rebound, thanks to free market policies, but the Red Mafia still remains extremely powerful. Also, a splinter enclave of Russian Tsarists composed of five million people exists, and is internationally recognized. Generally, the country is center right, Bush-style <Making your entrance with a Bush-Hitler comparison is NOT a smart thing to do, by the way.> except with a Russian flavor.

[OOC: Well, just because I'm going to be a right-wing nation doesn't mean I'm going to ally myself with the right wing world. I'm very machiavellian, and that you will see. I do what gives me the better advantage.]

OOC: Two things.
1. In the AMW world, Bush doesn't exist, at least as you know him. (I made him a member of the A Team!) So don't mention him IC wise.
2. Please, don't start comparing him to Hitler. The first post was fine, otherwise, but that little snippet on fooling the masses made me want to puke.

OOC: Two things.
1. In the AMW world, Bush doesn't exist, at least as you know him. (I made him a member of the A Team!) So don't mention him IC wise.
2. Please, don't start comparing him to Hitler. The first post was fine, otherwise, but that little snippet on fooling the masses made me want to puke.

[OOC: Well I rather leave personal political opinions out of this, and as it's my opinion, and my post, I reserve my right to say my own opinion as it applies and is revelant to the post at hand. Anyways...

1. Well then my mention of him was purely in the historical sense, just as Hitler was.
2. My comparison to Hitler was purely that Bush was able to fool over sixty to seventy percent of the United States that Iraq did have WMDs.]

OOC: Of course you can have your own opinions. It's just that such comparisons can be interpreted as flamebait. And Dubya has never been President of Quinntonia/USA, so you can't really refer to him in a historical context anyway.

OOC: Of course you can have your own opinions. It's just that such comparisons can be interpreted as flamebait. And Dubya has never been President of Quinntonia/USA, so you can't really refer to him in a historical context anyway.

[OOC: So, when did Quinntonia take control of the USA? As in, what year in respect to RL.]

Quinntonia is a Constitutional Theocracy. We have a Prime Minister, with a Parliament, but the head of state is technically the Council of Bishops, though they rarely exersise their veto power. Our Prime Minister is Jesse Obed, a wheelchair bound old man of 75 years, who has been re-elected again and again and held office for over twenty years. We have a powerful ethical-capitalistic economy. (like 11-12 trillion GDP same as RL USA) Our nation is probably 95% true beieliving Christians, with a smattering of others. We have a much lighter foriegn policy, though we are deployed globally and will use force to protect the weak and innocent if we need to, see Dra-pol.
As for the money, you van say it came from wherever, just that kind of money could not, or would not come from Quinntonins, and we do exercise government control over the economy, through ethical regulations, and auditing teams, etc. That, and there just isn't that many really corrupt business people, seeing as how they are good REAL Christians and all. The reason I emphasise REAL Christians, is that most people picture my nation as a full of teh Christians they encounter in their daily life or even throughout history, but mine are not like those, they are actual beleivers, not hypocrates. At least 95% of them are. We also have manditory drafts for all able-bodied people, men and women, and have a national militarisation, somewhere above that of the RL USA during Vietnam and the hieght of the Cold War.

I can already tell that our relationship will be long and flowery.

And in answer to your above question, just after the Revolution. We have pretty much always been a theocracy, though maybe not quite in its modern form.
WWJD
Amen.

OOC: AMW Russia actually resembles RL USA more than AMW USA does, at least in government structure.

[Madrid, Spain]
The strung out convoy of civilian cars with sporadically placed military grade trucks, probably vintage from wineries which used old Spanish Civil War era transports to move grapes about, moved up the 'Andalucia', the principle highway which connected the string of villages, including El Provencio, moving southeast and then back south, to Madrid. The bright sun glinted off the steel chassis of the automobiles which quite frankly proved to be a hazard to the eye, and indeed, most drivers were wearing darkly tinted aviator glasses, which also went with the current trend in clothing and style. Along the center of the string of cars was a pitch black Audi A8, the largest in its class, moving tempo with the rest of the convoy. The car carried the young Jonatan Catalan, upstart revolutionary of Spain, and his main advisors, his friends Victor de la Higuera and Miguel del Sol, and would be the center of various plots which circled around in their brains before they got to Madrid.

Inside, Catalan began to speak his personal views,"Should we start today? If we don't then it will just be another rally in which we may gain support, or we may lose support, depending on how our enemies react. If it begins today then we will be going with what he have present with us, ready or not, for better or for worse. But, something inside tells me to do it now, and something else tells me to wait. I cannot make up my mind."

del Sol responded in kind, ready to give his friend and leader anything he needed, including his life,"Caudillo, if I may be so bold as to suggest, I think it would be better to launch it today. In the coming weeks our production will not have churned anything new in the numbers necessary for an overwhelming victory, for that to happen we would need to wait at least two years, so if you're looking for a coup that would succeed in the forty-eight to seventy-two yours after it's launched I suggest you do it today."

Catalan nodded and then looked at de la Higuera and Victor replied,"Yo creo lo mismo Jonny."

Catalan sighed. He had never imagined himself in this position, tiping the balance of power. Of course, as a child he had thought himself a new Napoleon, one that would conquer the world from sea to sea, with armies so vast that neither Hitler's, Alexander's or Napoleon's armies would be able to imagine. It was easy to see that such an overwhelming global Empire with such an expansive army was impossible, especially with the assets presented to him through Spain, a country with about thirty-nine million people, outnumbered by France to the north and almost every other major country around it. Catalan would have to do with what he had. However, saying that Catalan's ambitions would only take him to Spain was niave, and frankly untrue, for a man of Catalan's taste could never be satisfied with just a petty peninsular power. Catalan needed an international superpower, and so the upcoming years would be shrouded by his attempts to gain just this. But, such trivial pursuits would have to be left for later, as for now he had to worry about his coup de grace.

The young soon to be dictator of Spain reached into the right pocket of his suit pants, made up cheap cotton, and took out a metallic silver cell phone punching in a quick dial number and putting the machine to his ear. He waited a few seconds and the line picked up and Catalan said,"Ahora." Hanging up he put the cell phone back in his pocket and smiled. The driver opened up the thing sound proof glass which seperated the driver's compartment with the back and said,"Madrid in five minutes. Welcome to the capital of your Empire sir." Catalan chuckeled...empire indeed...

[Sevilla, Spain]
"Tango-3, this is Hotel-6, we're moving up Calle Campania, ETA to telecommunication center is about ten minutes, and we've had no problems with security yet."

The twenty man team which made up Hotel-6 were the best Catalan could assemble south of Madrid for taking out the central communications system network in Sevilla, the key to Andalucia, which was the key to Southern Spain, which thus gave Catalan a third of the country before the day was even over. That latter fact would be imperative in any victory of his. They moved up in four red Ford carrs, flooring the accelerator and hitting around one hundred and twenty kilometers per hour down the main street, oblvious to the traffic around them - the operations would have to go fast because the other operations in Sevilla depended on the success of Hotel-6 and operation DORIC. The four cars stopped in the center of the road, setting up what resembled a road block and the twenty men rapidly stepped out, carrying their An-94s with them, some even with Javaline missile launchers on their back, and some with light machine guns - this was no bank robbery, this was a fullfledge military grade operation. One of the men took out a small waist portable radio and transmitted to a secured end,"This shit has hit the fan, over. I repeat, the shit has hit the fan. Bring in the cavalry folks."

Running the long incline made up of steps to a building constructed in a neo-classical architecture, including the namesake of the operation, the large, tall, Doric style columns, the twenty men spread out broadly and waved their assault rifles at passer by's bellow, making a few scream and even the men run to the other side to avoid the commotion. A security guard inside yelled,"Para!" but nobody really paid any attention to him and instead Sergeant Antonio Lopez put a single 5.45mm round square between the eyes, shutting down the fat security guard almost immediately. A few yells ripped inside and the alarm system quickly turned on putting the entire building on lock down, including shutting and locking the outer doors. One of the last para-military soldiers to make it up the steps ran towards the door, dropped his An-94 and swung over his backpack and opened it. He motioned for the others to step back, who did so while setting up a close watch because they knew the police and military were going to show up soon, and then the man placed a 10kg Octagen explosive on the door, which stuck to the huge steel frame. The entire team of twenty stepped back, moving down the stairs once again considerably, and soon enough the explosives tore sending sparks and flames all over the place ripping open the wide and broad doors, and filling the entire area with smoke. The sound made bolted through the streets, sending not just a few of the pedestrians down on their knees just in case more bombs were going off, and the entire scene looked like Paris in '44 when German snipers terrorized civilians after the capture of the city by the Free French.

Hotel-6 moved in quick, keeping themselves on their feet, and firing wildly into the smoke. Once they busted through they witnessed the atrocity they had forged, including about fifty bodies strewn dead across the floor, the blood reaching even the ankles of the men as it gushed out of the dead corpses which littered the building now. However, no man of Hotel-6 stopped to consider the brutality and instead they focused on their mission, adrenalin rushing through them, and moved through the building gunning down the security guards who at some point decided to stop trying to defend the building and instead surrender their weapons, which got them shot anyways. The motto was to let no man alive for they would just come to bite you in the ass later, and so this motto would be followed, and once the fighting was over a body count would claim the death of at least two hundred individuals in that building, another three hundred wounded, which fifty of those would die in the hospital or on the floors waiting to be carted away to the hospitals. A true tragedy indeed, however a tragedy that could be forgiven as collateral damage, at least in the militarized mine of Catalan who would soon run the state.

The men moved up the stairs instead of the elevator which inevitable took up time but was much safer in the long run. But, before they got to their destination the Sevilla police deparment, fully suited for special weapons and training operations had flooded the street and began to set up infiltration systems and teams in order to wipe out 'terrorist' inside the building. That meant that it was Tango-3s time to act, and so they did. A sniper's 7.62mm NATO bullet ripped through the head of the Civil Guard Major, who was the commander of the task force, and that ultimately slowed down any operations inside the building for a good ten minutes, which gave Hotel-6 ample time to finish the job.

Inside the building the men had finally reached a vault which contained the central computers which ran Sevilla's GPS systems, and general communication systems, including telephones and televisions. The capture of said building would give Catalan a strong point in the control of Sevilla, and putting a strong garrison, meaning Hotel-6 in there to control the people's entertainment, communications, et cetetra, would give him a source of power to wield and channel to his favor. A small pack of explosives tore through the lock on the vault and the men slammed the door open and rushed in. The technically expert proceeded to shut down everything. Sergeant Antonio Lopez took out his radio and said,"Terminado."

Outside the building the again organized police were disrupted by the fifty man Tango-3 team which had begun an all out urban war by opening fire with three co-axial light 10mm machineguns set up in machine gun nests along the windows in the high rises which sorrounded the area. Cars were shot up, setting off alarms, and slaughtering those who were too slow or too stupid to move for cover. It took about two minutes to complete the job, and once it was done the stench of the killing began to spread through the thin atmosphere reaching even the noses of the killers. The streets fell silent, even for two minutes...

[Toledo, Spain]
Toledo, as capital of the autonomous community of Castilla la Mancha, was another extremely important city. Indeed, the four most important cities which Catalan had put as his primary priorities were Sevilla, Toledo, Leon and Barcelona, all capitals of the largest and most important autonomous communities inside Spain. Toledo would prove to be the easiest of the four and was expected to fall into Catalan's hands within minutes of the start of operations against the Socialist administration. So it was, for the city shot up in rebellion as soon as Catalan made that fateful phone call inside his black Audi A8. Mobs armed with old rifles and some para-military forces armed with M-16s or An-94s, whatever they could get a hand of, moved down the streets of Toledo towards the old city which would become the soon infamous 'fortress of Toledo'. The mobs overran police stations, burnt administrative centers to the ground, and murdered those who were not sympathetic to 'the cause'. In one instance a family of eighteen, mostly children, and even the extended family of a prominent UGT party member, were dragged out to the streets and pushed up against the brick walls of other houses and shot point black with powerful rifles, distributing their brains and blood along the walls, creating an ugly scene of destruction. It prompted one officer to say,"Should we lose I'm afraid we're all guilty of war crimes."

One mob moved into the old city and began to escalate the long, winding, Arab built pathways which led to the thin streets which made up the old city. A quick reaction force set up by the old PP administration around 1994 was able to get on its feet, armed with three Bradly Infantry Fighting Vehicles and boasting about two hundred infantry, armed with among the best ordnance given to those who fought for the Socialist. They were fast to establish layered defenses along the various pathways that led to the center of the city, but they were horribly overstretched and the roadblocks set up were overran by sheer numbers, although large amounts of the rioters were cut down by machine gun fire, mortars, and even large high explosive shells. The day light sky covered the bulbs of murderous fire and the fireworks of explosive shells and had this occured during the night it would have painted quite a scene against the backdrop of the sky.

Heavy firefights leading to the center of the city ensued but it was impossible for such a small force to stop over six thousand citizens, whos ranks were increasing after every passing minute. One rapid reaction force soldier was beaten and then had his eyes gauged out before he was hung from the Arab built walls of the old city. The grotesque scene which was establishing itself in Toledo would go forever in the history books of war criminals and war, but perhaps that was exactly what the mob wanted - a name for itself. That name would come with the destruction of socialism and communism in Spain, and the mob would be force behind said drive. It took maybe twenty minutes for the mobs to breakthrough the roadblocks and into the city but by that time the Spanish military was making passes which jets which scared many of the people in the mobs to trickle back to their houses, but for the most part the rebellion continued and all the columns of men converged on a single house - the home of the president of Castilla la Mancha. One of the men yelled,"Death to the Socialist! Long live Catalan! Long live Spain! Long live the west!"

That prompted others to begin to scream out similar chants and finally a team of men carrying torches shot bolts of fire through the windows by using an improvised ballista using tension as its strength. Flames raged inside, spitting red and orange licks from the windows, marked with occasional explosions. The mob cheered the entire way through but karma struck back when a roof top came tumbling down killing about six of them.

From the various cathedrals, churces and government buildings the flag of Catalan, a black double headed eagle on a white background, waved violently in the winds forged by the ongoing fires through the city, and streaking the light blue skies with the beauty of western civilization. The death of the eastern scourge of Communism was at hand...

[El Provencio, Cuenca, Castilla la Mancha, Spain]
The Socialist had responded quickly to the Toledo fiasco and moving from Cuidad Real was a small column of about thirteen M1A2 Abrams, recently bought from the United States who sold weaponry to both Morocco and Spain. M1A2s were thought to be top of the line, however what the Socialist had not betted on was the unveiling of Catalan's master creation, the Panzerkampfwaggen XI (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=404504) which put together the best of all tanks. The squad of Abrams moved into El Provencion, unaware that this was actually the center of Catalan's movement and as they began to work their way through the main street they became prime targets for the hidden BredtSverd. As the last Abrams moved in the garage door to a storage room for barley opened quickly revealing one of the BredtSverds. The 120mm gun moved to meet the rear of the doomed Abrams and soon a 120mm SABOT Ausf. B round shot out of the long barrel of the BredtSverd. The encasement fell away revealing a rod of depleted uranium moving at ungodly velocities towards the rear of the Abrams and before one could say,"Reload," the rod smashed into the Abram's square back end forcing it to stop in its tracks before it began to smoke. It was safe to say that the entire crew was dead, and this was soon underscored by the explosion inside the armor when the rod hit the shell supply underneath the loader's compartment.

The entire armored column began evasive manuevers and the second to last Abrams rotated its turret carrying the 120mm Rhinemettal gun to meet the newest threat, but it found that at its angle the BredtSverd was invisible. The huge new tank moved out from its confines and lined up its ETC gun onto the Abrams launching another depleted uranium SABOT into its rear, scoring another kill. The remaining eleven Abrams began manuevers to turn around but this actually opened them to destruction as the BredtSverd quickly reloaded the gun and lined up another shot using its revolutionary turret technology and placed a third shell right into the side armor of another Abrams, claiming another devastating kill. A fourth shell ripped through a fourth tank but soon the Abrams were positions to begin operations. A fifth shell hit the frontal armor of an Abrams but didn't penetrate enough to claim a fifty kill and the same Abrams returned fire although in its haste overshot the shell hitting a house behind the BredtSverd. So, with flames dancing in the background the remaining ten tanks and the single BredtSverd gracefully moved to avoid destruction and kill its enemies. The BredtSverd hit the wounded Abrams with a second shell in the frontal armor again, but this time penetrating it wholly and slamming the rod into the face of the driver and then out the back of the tank - that Abrams was as good as dead.

Another Abrams managed to put a titanium SABOT into the frontal armor of the BredtSverd and it was stopped before it could do major damage by the primary layer of Kontackt-5 ERA bricks but it persuaded the BredtSverd to move back into the side streets away from the fighting, but before it left it lined up its turret with its backside and put a seventh depleted uranium rod into the side of a sixth Abrams, claiming a sixth kill. In return the Abrams began filing out of the town at about fifty kilometers per hour tearing the asphalt from under them as they fled top speed away from the scene - it was to prove a debacle that would occur time and time again in the coup.

A later report filed by the squad commander claimed that,"They had encountered some sort of weapon which was unlited in any manual and that the RADAR could not filter and classify. It was something monstrous, new, and deadly." It would in fact shape the war to come.

OOC-Interesting tank, I am going to defer judgement for now, but c'mon, even if this super-tank were even possible under AMW rules, (No non-RL tech, but just variations on RL tech) which I highly doubt, though you try to justify it through some pretty outragous claims in your link, 8 million is a liitle light, don't ya think? An Abrams M1A2 goes for about 45 million, and is the most advanced tank in the world, you are trying to put some Star Trek stuff together, and claiming it for 8? I'll let some other Rpers get into this about whether it will even be allowed, but even if it was, there is no way that any but the greatsest super-power would be able to field more than 100 of them, and with Spain's entire resources at your command, you couldn't field more than a small column. And who paid for this reseach? And you claimed in your link quite a lot of Quinntonian research and field testing, especially a Gulf War that didn't happen. How many of these could you possibly have, even if you did somehow find businessmen willing to throw away billion on you? Three, four?

WWJD
Amen.

OOC: 45 mill for an M1A2? Im pretty sure its only 4.5mill not 45.

[El Provencio, Spain]
El Provencio was quickly becoming the center of a huge armored battle in which the Socialist government was not willing to lose it over a few Abrams and indeed the order that President Zapatero had sent to his men seemed to underscore his personal crusade to crush the resistance at El Provencio. So, El Provencio soon became a massive symbilic emblem regardless of it's size and a victory for the Socialist at El Provencio would be a massive boost for the army's dwindling self confidence, and a defeat would serve directly the opposite purpose. It would conclude though that this notion of 'victory at all costs' would not reap the consequences such a policy had forged for the allies during the Second World War, and would instead spell the death of the Socialist administration and the rise of the Catalan regime.

Zapatero, with the help of the General Staff, had ordered all his armored personnel in Castilla la Mancha to congregate at Ciudad Real, a mere hundred or so kilometers from El Provencio, along with the armor from the area around Madrid. The reasoning behind these deployents were 'stopping the rebellion farther from Madrid would protect the capital from the scars of war and it will serve as a psycological punishment to the fascist.' It would turn out that this order, at first seen as a solve all end all, would prove quite a disaster. Nonetheless, within an hour of the opening fights at El Provencio, Sevilla and Toledo the complete set of about fifty-four M1A2 Abrams, which had already suffered six casualties, met with one hundred French designed AMX-30E, one hundred and fifty American designed M-47E, forty M-48A5E, forty M-41 and all sixty available Leopard IIs, which gave what would be called the '1st Armored Fist' a total strength of four hundred and forty four tanks. On the other side of the hill Catalan's total 'Provenciano' armored task force was composed of twenty-five BredtSverds [OOC: The original post claims Muwatallis', but the BredtSverds are actual 2005 tech so I'm using them instead], and farmers armed with the new Javalinas, of which there were only around a hundred available for use. But, the town would have to go with said defenses as their was no stopping the order of the president.

The First Armored Fist began to move east towards El Provencio as soon as al the components of the force were united and almost immediately they ran into some problems. Intelligence coming from those sympathetic to the fascist cuase in Cuidad Real had reported the presence of a huge armored force and consequently Catalan, noted immediately although he was already on his way to Madrid, called for his miniature airforce to beging operations from haphazard dirt runways in the midst of vyniards and olive fields.

Two MMA-A3 Falcons took off, sending a wave of dirt and dust behind them like a shockwave, turning the entire area into one giant dust atmosphere. The jets shrieked into the light blue skies of the heavens and turned and then began their straight accension into the clouds where they would finally hit a velocity of Mach 1.4 before they began their decension towards the columns of tanks. No doubt that the Spaniards would catch the movements of these Falcons at some point or another but it was doubted that the dated Spanish RADAR could pick up the Falcon soon enougn and thus the Falcons were given order to make a single pass on the column and to known out as many tanks as possible. For the mission each Falcon was given four MTAAM-3 Silencer Air to Air Missiles and eight MLAM-2 Air to Surface Missiles which would act as the anti-tank missiles destined to slaughter much of the Socialist 'armored fist'. The MTAAM-3 was perhaps the most advance air to air missile to date using a SCRAMjet engine with a Nickel based superalloy coating to throw it at over two hundred and seventy-five kilometers at Mach 4.7 [For more information see this (http://www.createforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=24&mforum=macabeestorefro). The MLAM-2 although not as advance was also a fine piece of weaponry also having a superalloy coating, although using a solid fuel rocket booster, but it had a 200kg Octagen warhead. In any case, the MMA-A3 Falcons swooped down unto the column like their namesake birds and let loose a torrent of hell. The aircraft gracefully turned towards the Earth below, LIDAR and RADAR working fervently to gain accurate coordination for the MLAM-2s and this was done within seconds. Inside a minute's span of time a full force of sixteen MLAM-2s were unshackeled from their prison under the wings of the Falcons and they free fell for about twenty feet. All the while the Falcons began to accend again ready to leave back for the area around El Provencio to make another landing on that poor quality landing strip in the countryside - soon enough Catalan would have proper airports. The MLAM-2s had their engines turned on in midflight and they immediately stopped their augmenting decrease in altitude and began to fly leveled for a scant minute and the began its terminal phase of darting right into the column of tanks.

One MLAM-2 struck between a mass of AMX-30E tanks turning eleven of them into charred chassis and turning over another six. Another missile scored a direct hit on a M-47E which then had its weapons store blow causing a rupture and a wave that burnt out another twenty tanks and flipped over at least twelve. All in all the damage done was incredible and it would scar the column and would ultimately lead to its eventual defeat. The armor lost to that attack could never be regained by the Socialist government, however, it would be premature to say that it was all Zapatero's fault for there was no way that the man could know that Catalan had weapons which were seemingly produced from his arse. Indeed, the mere fact that Catalan had fighters more advance than anything in Spain's inventory sent massive shockwaves of distress in the capital and this would in the end affect Catalan's visitation of the city for his rally. In total once the column had passed through the raid and continued its drive towards El Provencio the roads behind were marked with one hundred and twelve burning chassis and about thirty flipped over, with crews scrambling out frantically trying to call for support so that they could re-join the column. But it would be futiless. The remaining three hundred and two tanks continued their journey. The smoke of the dead rose into the air and it would prove a drastic foreshadowing of the events to come.

The battle at El Provencio earlier had occured at around 0800 hours. So, when the column finally reached the outskirts of El Provencio it was around 1028 hours, and by then the para-military force Catalan had closely forged to defend his home town was fully armed and complete ready, forewarned of the advancing tanks. The news of the destruction wrought on them along the highway brought furhter enjoyment and proved to be an important boost of confidence and morale. So, when the column of enemy tanks appeared over the horizon the twenty-five BredtSverds were arrayed inside the town, ready to conduct murderous urban warfare.

The first tanks began to seep into the village after they had split up to enter through ten different streets and it was concluded that the fist would meet up in the center of the town and then continue towards the east where they would mop up remaining forces. Truly, it was conceived that it would be an easy fight, ignoring what had happened to the six unlucky Abrams that had met the BredtSverds up close and personal. This proved wrong as soon as those tanks stepped into the village. From the windows and doors of houses infantry armed with the vaunted Javaline opened fire. All across the board tanks were knocked out left and right providing a chaotic scene. One M-41 turned its turret and let loose a round early knocking out a M048A5E in front of it. It was disastrous but the poorly trained and poorly led motley task force continued its drive towards the center of the town, taking on heated fire.

It became truly disastrous when the streets became bottlenecks as Javalinas closed large groups of armor off by destroying the lead tank and the last tank. The resulting trapped armor was destroyed by infantry sneaking up on them and dropping grenades through the hatches killing the occupants and blowing up the explosives inside causing internal combustion. Some fifty tanks were destroyed within the first twenty minutes of the battle and the dust and smoke had cluttered the streets making them both impossible for tank warfare and impossible for anti-tank warfare. The surviving tanks broke off and decided to make their run around the town and hit from the other side. So they did, outpacing the quick moving men carrying the Javalinas, however, once they began to filter through they became targets of entrenched and well hidden BredtSverds using their powerful guns to knock out tank after tank without suffering a single death. The smoking and charred hulls of destroyed Spanish tanks littered the outskirts of the town and in the end the armored force was forced to break off and await further reinforcements which were promised for the next day. The men were told to drive to the friendly town of Pedroso and there rest, however, Catalan would have a surprise in store for them there also.

The first day of the soon to be recognized Battle for El Provencio was a fullfledge debacle for the Spanish forces who lost over two hundred tanks in a single day. This was to be the worst armored disaster in the history of mechanized warfare, not even found in the hidden archives of the Second World War. The same mistake would be committed over and over again by a regime bent on failure to change - the same failure that had been done by the Hapsburgs which were overthrown in the War of Spanish Succession over three hundred years past.

Secret Letter to The Tsarist Kingdom of The Estenlands
Yes, some sort of alliance between east and west, two absolute powers, would be beneficial for the both of us I would like to think. You may not notice or believe the capabilities of a Spain under my control, however, I assure you that having my martial prowess by your side will give you a valuable ally in the days to come.

Please, look over my words and analyze them to your own pleasure. I will not offer this twice, to take it now.

If you do decide to accept such a clandestine alliance then please you are open to the support of my cause and the appearance of such a superpower outside the waters of Spain will surely cause the Socialist administration to think twice about their resistance to my will.

Thank you,
Catalan

OOC-Interesting tank, I am going to defer judgement for now, but c'mon, even if this super-tank were even possible under AMW rules, (No non-RL tech, but just variations on RL tech) which I highly doubt, though you try to justify it through some pretty outragous claims in your link, 8 million is a liitle light, don't ya think? An Abrams M1A2 goes for about 45 million, and is the most advanced tank in the world, you are trying to put some Star Trek stuff together, and claiming it for 8? I'll let some other Rpers get into this about whether it will even be allowed, but even if it was, there is no way that any but the greatsest super-power would be able to field more than 100 of them, and with Spain's entire resources at your command, you couldn't field more than a small column. And who paid for this reseach? And you claimed in your link quite a lot of Quinntonian research and field testing, especially a Gulf War that didn't happen. How many of these could you possibly have, even if you did somehow find businessmen willing to throw away billion on you? Three, four?

WWJD
Amen.


[OOC:

1. I have a full fighting force of twenty-five of these tanks.
2. An Abrams costs about 4.5 million, not 45 million.
3. Should have I had Spain's entire resources at hand I could probably support a full force of over two thousand of these babies, possibly over ten thousand. Spain is a 1st world nation mind you with a GDP capable of commanding an army the size of the USs in RL.]

[OOC: Ok, found it. The replacement cost per unit of an M1A2 Abrams is 4.3 million USD.

Source: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm ]

Spain GDP:
purchasing power parity - $885.5 billion (2003 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
2.4% (2003 est.)
GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $22,000 (2003 est.)

USA GDP:
purchasing power parity - $10.99 trillion (2003 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
3.1% (2003 est.)
GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $37,800 (2003 est.)

2,000-10,000! There is no tank force like that in the world. I think Estenlands has the largest claimed tank force in the world, and it nearly bankrupts his nation.
And see Dra-pol for what happens with a military that size.

As for the price, I will concede, fine, but is the tech even possible?
And where in that monstrosity of a link os the replacement cost talked about? I don't have time to read that much.

WWJD
Amen.

[OOC: That tank's technology is just a conglameration of RL tech, save the ETC gun which if you want you can imagine it's just another smoothbore Rhinmetal 120mm gun - L/60 however, unlike the Abrams L/55. That tank was actually designed for this RP.

As for the comparison of Spain's GDP and the United States GDP. That may be fine, however, the United States military is a fraction of what could be its total manpower. Of course, at maximums the United States could field vast more quanties of men than I could, but the Spanish economy is perfectly equipped to field at least ten thousand MBTs and twenty thousand IFVs. It should be noted that the RL United States field around 70,000 total armor, and the old Soviet Union around the same number.]

OOC: Macabees, not to be nitpicky, but the US could not actually field a force in the way you claim. Sure, we had more tanks a while back, but those tanks were cheap. Abrams cost a crapload, and even more to maintain. The US military is a fraction of the size it could be, but it makes up for it with high tech equipment.

OOC: Macabees, not to be nitpicky, but the US could not actually field a force in the way you claim. Sure, we had more tanks a while back, but those tanks were cheap. Abrams cost a crapload, and even more to maintain. The US military is a fraction of the size it could be, but it makes up for it with high tech equipment.

[OOC: *shakes head* When the Abrams first came out, late 80s, the United States worked up to field over 50,000 of these. Indeed, the Abrams was designed for just that. The entire idea, especially behind the gasoline engine of the Abrams, was massive charges across broad fields against massive amounts of Soviet armor.]

OOC: Well, it seems we have contradictory sources, but meh. It just seems odd to me that the US military is "a fraction of what it could be" considering that already it is has the largest budget in the world.

OCC: Since my idea of a tank is either a T-72 or an APC-3 with a 75mm HVMC slapped on, I will stay quiet, but I am, shall we say, suspicious of the ability of an underground group to develop what you are touting as the greatest tank in the world.

The SCRAMJET missiles are also a little bit too shady for my tastes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet

According to the above article, I think your claim of operating SCRAMJET missiles , a technology which has yet to be mastered in the experimental stage and is only really effective in the upper atmosphere, is a tad too far out for AMW.

OOC: Well, it seems we have contradictory sources, but meh. It just seems odd to me that the US military is "a fraction of what it could be" considering that already it is has the largest budget in the world.

[OOC: It has the largest budget concerning technological developement. But let me tell you this, and this is a true story. While NASA invented an anti-graviational pen the Soviets used a pencil.

If that doesn't get to you, the US spent 7 billion USD (perhaps 7 trillion, don't remember, but both are huge numbers) on the Commancher project only to close it...

... in short the US wastes a lot of money on:

A) Stupid ideas
B) Failures
C) Ideas that they don't go through with.

So, in conclusion the US wastes it's money while I take one design and stick with it which saves money on:

A) Production
B) Logistics
]

OCC: Since my idea of a tank is either a T-72 or an APC-3 with a 75mm HVMC slapped on, I will stay quiet, but I am, shall we say, suspicious of the ability of an underground group to develop what you are touting as the greatest tank in the world.

The SCRAMJET missiles are also a little bit too shady for my tastes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet

According to the above article, I think your claim of operating SCRAMJET missiles , a technology which has yet to be mastered in the experimental stage and is only really effective in the upper atmosphere, is a tad too far out for AMW.

[OOC: Yes SCRAMjet only works in the upper atmosphere..somewhere around 30,000 feet and above...but air to air combat occurs at that altitude, at least my air to air combat... in any case NASA mastered it a couple months ago by getting an aircraft to Mach 10 in the upper atmospheres. Check the NASA website for more details.

If not just exchange SCRAMjet with RAMjet...same effect.]

OOC: Damned bureacracy. But you know, it eventually gets to every state. You can't go around claiming Spain's government is super efficient.

Secret Letter to The Tsarist Kingdom of The Estenlands
Yes, some sort of alliance between east and west, two absolute powers, would be beneficial for the both of us I would like to think. You may not notice or believe the capabilities of a Spain under my control, however, I assure you that having my martial prowess by your side will give you a valuable ally in the days to come.

Please, look over my words and analyze them to your own pleasure. I will not offer this twice, to take it now.

If you do decide to accept such a clandestine alliance then please you are open to the support of my cause and the appearance of such a superpower outside the waters of Spain will surely cause the Socialist administration to think twice about their resistance to my will.

Thank you,
Catalan

"I will not offer this twice! Superpower? Resistance to my will?! Who does this timpot dicater think he is?! And a commoner diegning to speak in such a way to me, Tsar of the Russias!! I will not recieve anymore communication from this wannabe Franco until he shows the proper respect, to a Tsar ! Get Louis XX on the phone!"

Tsar Wingert I.

OOC: Damned bureacracy. But you know, it eventually gets to every state. You can't go around claiming Spain's government is super efficient.

[OOC: I'm not. I'm saying that having 25 freakin' tanks isn't a freakin' godmod.]

[OOC: Yes SCRAMjet only works in the upper atmosphere..somewhere around 30,000 feet and above...but air to air combat occurs at that altitude, at least my air to air combat... in any case NASA mastered it a couple months ago by getting an aircraft to Mach 10 in the upper atmospheres. Check the NASA website for more details.

If not just exchange SCRAMjet with RAMjet...same effect.]

OCC: Well, if you want to hang an X-43 from a fighter jet wing be my guest...

[OOC: The size doesn't matter, it's the concept of SCRAMjet... my MTAAM-3 doesn't exactly have the range of an X-43. But the concept is that it no longer has an oxygen tanks and instead uses Oxygen from the atmosphere to burn the fuel, which means the fuel tank can be larger, which means it has a longer range.]

OK, I think this is just about the limit. You need to stop posting anymore RP elements to this thread until some AMW group members sanction this activity.
Perhaps you would enjoy a slightly future tech environment better. Less restriction like, reality and logic.
And as for your "check out website thing, provide a link, then when you are done with that, explain how this peon from Spain got ahold of all of my best tech in the experimentla phase and managed to not only perfect it, but mass produce it with no factories or anything, only vagoe "international business support" and all in a few months.

You are treading in my opinion in dabgerous Godmodding areas, and you need to be reviewed by some of the senior members of AMW before this goes on any longer.

WWJD
Amen.

[OOC: Why, because I proved you wrong? I mean I made twenty-five tanks, engineered by Jonatan Catalan and you start to bitch because they're better than anything you've come out with. Just because you've never heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist - it means that I actually put time and effort into what I design and I actually research.]

OOC: Just before I start to put forth my own opinions and criticisms, I feel the need to say that I don't mean to be entirely critical of the Macabees, who seems to have writing ability and ideas enough for him to be a valuable member of AMW.

Right, that said, I'd like to add that just about every opposition party ever hoping to get elected anywhere in the world has promised to come up with money to cover their wonderful campaign budgets by dealing with waste and inefficiency... and then they get elected and people start to criticise them for keeping so few of their promises. That's because they don't come up with the extra money, because they don't eliminate inefficiency inherent to the systems under which they work. BG went some way to dealing with this by replacing the system (and elections, for that matter), but of course we have our own economic issues to deal with as a result.

Anyway, yeah, waste is waste. A few individual items -like some of the US's more stupid or stupidly abandoned military projects- could perhaps be done away with by a clued-in and forceful dictator, but a military genius with that level of dedication might be expected to leave other areas less well attended, and still wouldn't get rid of all the economic inefficiency by not cancelling a few showy projects that give no economic return.

Still, this is hardly going to read like the word of God while Quinntonia maintains the USA's economic strength under the yoke of government interventionalism and others hurl their own criticisms at Beth Gellert's communal economy. We can't really treat Macabees too harshly if he claims top notch efficiency in Spain's economy, I suppose.

As to the tank matters, yeah, the four or five million dollars per unit tag given for Abrams tanks will be close to the mark, rather than forty five: that's more like a fairly high performance combat jet.

Personally, I have always been a bit uneasy about ETC cannons in AMW, but if I'm honest, having heard from several other players that the UK was seriously considering ETC for Challenger 2's new armament (though apparently deciding against it, presumably on cost grounds as they're really not that vitally required in the real world just now), I suppose that I personally would have to grudgingly accept their viability in AMW, so long as players recognise that coming up with the technology in practical terms and applying it en masse would be an expense, and that they seriously think about whether their nation's government would go through with it (whether or not they like it themselves). BG didn't produce an ETC gun for the new MT-4 Hathi tank because nobody else had one, and it didn't seem worth the trouble. If Spain produces them, it will probably have a knock-on effect and cause their development around the world.

I think that all that'd do is make tanks a bit more vulnerable to one another, again, and further increase the gap between the richer nations and the poor ones, in military terms. Lusaka, Strathdonia, Dra-pol and many NPC nations won't be able to get the armour punch that others can, but that's nothing new. Nations like the Estenlands probably won't like it, either. The idea of developing new technology in their isolated condition and applying it to such a massive force as their own would probably be a financial and logistical nightmare they would struggle to address.

Erm, but I'm getting sidetracked, damn ale...

I think that thus far I've basically said that I think the Macabees items are okay, but things that the rest of AMW would do well to watch and respond to.

SCRAM jets, for me, is a slightly different matter. I'll try to explain, and for what it matters I'll admit that I'm no expert in the technology.

ETC cannons on tanks means applying -so far as I know- existing real-life technology to give an edge that could be gained in reality if the need existed, and does relatively little except to slightly alter performance ratios between the battle tanks of different AMW nations.

...Putting SCRAM jets in to practical use makes so much existing technology obsolete. To me it's a different kind of leap. Correct me if I'm wildly wrong, but in fairly basic terms, putting an ETC cannon on a tank instead of a conventional one is more or less like choosing a 120mm gun (a la The British Federation's Challenger 2, Quinntonia's M1A1/2 Abrams et cetera) instead of a 105mm gun (a la Lusaka's T-56(L), Dra-pol's Type D-14 et cetera).

SCRAM jets powering guided air to air missiles mean making whole air forces obsolete. I'm just worried about how far we are from missiles (that make BG's supersonic Charioteer ASM look like a cross bow) rushing out to obliterate X's entire air force, then his navy, then flooding over to negate his entire country's infrastructure in such a way as to make AMW the domain of the tech junkie.

I don't want those of us who know little to nothing of the military, and even those of us like myself who just do a little casual research when we've nothing better to do, to be automatically slaved to others who understand cutting edge/theoretical technology better... or even those who know just enough to fool others into believing it and submitting unrealistically.

I'm not trying to accuse The Macabees of that, understand. I think that perhaps we should have an AMW tech thread... something to debate the peak of AMW science so that everybody knows what is and what is not allowed (it could be confusing given that Quinntonia has his Raptors and TBF his Typhoons, while many of us think that SCRAM jets are a no no). If nothing else it may save RP threads from being cluttered so!

[OOC:

ETC:
Again, I've said that for this RP any ETC gun I use can be swapped for a smoothbore cannon, for example, swap my 120mm ETC to a 120 Rhinemetal cannon..that's fine by me.

SCRAMjet:
Render aircraft obsolete? Meh, I don't think so. A normal air to air missile would still be able to knock out SCRAMjet missiles from the sky and protect air formations.

It all would have to do with strategy and the person's ability to stratigize. As my own personal policy goes. If your scared that someone's technology is better than yours and for that reason you don't allow him in an RP, or you ignore him, whichever one, then you are no better than him, most likely worse. Having a dogmatic program for your nation where you refuse to change with the times and instead rely on the very basic of a military - what you learn on the Military Channel or the History Channel - is just going to bring further failure for your nation. In exchange I would suppose that the best option is to advance with the times. If someone brings out SCRAMjet then you should develope SCRAMjet.

However, as I said before, I'm willing to exchange SCRAMjet with RAMjet because frankly I'll get the same results, save range, which will drop by around twenty five to thirty kilometers. And again, the ETC guns can be exchanged for smoothbore cannons.]

OOC: Well, like I say, I don't know much about some of the technology being discussed here, I just have fears for the future of the community's style if we go back into pre-AMW standards of applying, "technology that isn't used in real life but could be if real life were more like nation states"... because AMW is supposed to make NS more like RL.

It's just that it was one of the things that lead to AMW's creation. In the wars between Dra-pol and the Quinntonian coalitions and their temporary allies, the former fielded tens of millions of straight-leg infantry and the latter sometimes applied the technological force appropriate to multi-trillion dollar budgets under total war conditions, and it quickly became less fun than it may sound. So that's why some of us are cautious, you understand. It's not as if all AMW nations are running to hide from new ideas and creativity- the wars in question saw all sorts of diplomatic wrangling and tactical struggles as well as the application of specifically tailored technology, just that letting slip the bounds of reality resulted in more stalemate than anything else.

For the record, I'm half looking foraward to the potential prospect of BG's attempts to convince foreign experts in ETC technology to defect and give us the means to up-gun what we already call the world's best-protected tank :) (which, while inarguably beating the pants off Abrams, through cost denies us the dream of tens of thousands of tanks in the field).

Listen, I am no military expert, I am just saying, that a lot of your stuff sounds far and above beyond what your stated capability is. This is not a mtter of who's econmoy is better, I am fully willing to let Spain have his RL economy, keeping in mind that Spain is now voted one of the world's best places to live by the UN.

The reason I have concerns is because I don't understand the technolgy, that is why I asked for people to come in and make their voices heard before we go any further.

The tech that is being used, for instance, the tanks, I am willing to admit I was wrong, that's fine.
But, these questions spring to mind when I am putting together my military, this is why I RP logistics so much.
i)Where did the money come from?
A vague "European businessmen" answer
ii)How much money
billions and billions?
iii)How did you get the technology?
Most of it appears to be Quinntonian in make, and though I have a pretty open arms dealing policy, the rest of the tech would be out of the question.
iv)Who did the research? How long did that take?
If you are claiming tech that NASA, (Quinntonian, BTW) has only experiemented with 4 months ago, how can you claim to have perfected AND mass produced it already.
v)Where were these super-powerful weapons produced?
You are not currently in charge of a nation, right? Even if you used your billions? to buy factories and raw materials and got them into Spain somehow, this of course after you had already researched and perfected said techs, why did no one notice?
vi)Who are these scientists that can baffle the greatest minds at NASA and still be stuck away secretly with no one noticing?
vii)How are these things going to be supplied?
You have already spent hundreds of millions at this piont, though I would say billions, and somehow completed a technological coup in secret faster that all the greatest super-powers in the world, (Xiaguo, Sino, Quinntonia, Beth Gellert) is there any money left over to keep your secret missile factories in operation.


I mean, the M1A2 Abrams is presumably the most advanced MBT in the RL world, right, at least the best one in service, and these things eat them for breakfast, that's fine, but you had better be able to back it up.

And as for insulting me, that will get you nowhere, you claim to have done all of this research, well, let's see it.
I am especially curious about where your claim that the US has 70,000 pieces of armour is going to come from. We are not talking T-72's here after all. I think that if that number is even close to correct, then it would be including EVERY piece of armour, including things like armoured Humvees.

Please offer us the links that back up all the claims you are making. Scramjets, RAMjets, even, everything. If you want to shut down all the opposition, provide proof, not insults. Take the highground, for goodness sake.

I am extremely uncomfortable with the level of tech, not because I;m threatened, because let's face it, you control Spain. If you can do it, then I can too, I will just start pumping out my own scramjets and uber-tanks. And I tell you, I can claim them a lot easier than you can, with an infrastructure already in place. The problem is, the whole reason that Dra-pol and I started forming this group in the first place was so these kinds of discussions didn't have to take place. We were going to stick to RL tech, RL populations, RL world map.

I am just asking that we slow this whole thing down. Your reputation preceeds you, Mac, and I want you in the group, I just think that we need to get staright the feel for this RPing group. And, it is pretty hard for me to sit here and say, yeah, the stuff he;'s claiming seems justified for a private individual to have, I can see that.

WWJD
Amen.

[OOC: Alright my apologies. I'll try to calm myself down...my mom's been bitching all day because she has a headache and she can be an ugly person when she has a headache but that's no excuse...in any case I will answer your questions to my fullest ability:

i)Where did the money come from?
Spanish CEOs who I RPd part of the cause coming from cement factories, marble factories, arms factories, etc, etc.

ii)How much money
It was billions and billions when I was going to use my Panzer X (http://www.createforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2&mforum=macabeestorefro) but as you can see I would never be able to use that here and the entire idea I scrapped due to sheer cost, even using my NS economy.

iii)How did you get the technology?
Most of it appears to be Quinntonian in make, and though I have a pretty open arms dealing policy, the rest of the tech would be out of the question.

What do you mean by this? All the technology I use is my own...I've never seen any of your technology.

iv)Who did the research? How long did that take?
I have 'hook ups' to several engineers and I myself own a vast library on materials covering anything from RADAR to LIDAR to SODAR to MEXAS to SCRAMjet. It took me about three years to get to the point of technological knowledge I'm at now.

And I haven't even started to mass produce it...I don't call making twenty-five tanks mass producing. Those twenty-five tanks have to last me the end of any coup de maine I have.

v)Where were these super-powerful weapons produced?
As said in my first post this was done in a vast subterranean factory built in conjuction with several armament producers of Spain. Why did nobody find out? Simply because it's the point of the RP to highlight the general IC ignorance of the Socialist regime in Spain.

vi)Who are these scientists that can baffle the greatest minds at NASA and still be stuck away secretly with no one noticing?
Say hello to Jonathan Catalan.

vii)How are these things going to be supplied?
Supplying twenty-five tanks and five fighters isn't that difficult. I can always just render, as I've been doing, civilian automobiles and use them as supply vehicles... and my output in the factories doesn't have to be necessarily large to produce enough replacement parts for twenty-five tanks. Especially twenty-five tans that so far haven't moved. During the Second World War people began to mass produce machineguns in their backyards...


I mean, the M1A2 Abrams is presumably the most advanced MBT in the RL world, right, at least the best one in service, and these things eat them for breakfast, that's fine, but you had better be able to back it up.


Because the M1A2 doesn't have technology from all over the world.. the USA doesn't have the ability to copy Russian/Israeli/European technology as we do. ]

Would you be willing to scale these back? To maybe RL tech? And it is saying things like subterrainian complex and saying that you have the capibility to do what the worlds superpower can't that makes people wonder.

Apperently I can't reason with you about the tech levels, and I bet you are a nice kid, but can we get the links?

BTW, out of curiosity, how old are you?

WWJD
Amen.

[OOC:

I'm almost 18.

Hmm, links I can't provide you but I can provide you some pamphlets..well I guess I have some links:

Kontackt-5 ERA Armor (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/kontakt5.html)
Chobham Armor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour)

On MEXAS I don't have a link but I have this:

MEXAS
MEXAS density is ~1.7g/cc and reactive elements are reported in the construction with a strenght of 2.5 GPa, not many materials are that strong but Boron Carbide could fit the bill.
B4C has a mass of 2.55g/cc and ME vs shaped charges of ~ 4.0...leading to a space effectiveness of ~ 1.3.

Now a mixture of CaCO/GAP and B4C should have a density of 1.7-1.8 g/cc [2.55g/cc+1.0g/cc ÷2]. Some thing with the density of CaCO/Gap should have an effectiveness of ~ 0.7 [space effectiveness] so a average of B4C & CaCO/GAP should be ~ 1.0 spaced effectiveness...

The ME should be 7.83/1.7= 4.6.

But the CaCO/GAP is reactive and generates a considerable improvement in effectivenes because this reactive forces the steel plates apart...using the VM-11 paper as a guide the ME of steel foam is ~ 3.3 while the value for steel CaCO/GAP is ~ 10.0...meaning this reactivity tripled the effectiveness of the sandwich...

If this same reactivity is applied to the above B4C & CaCO/GAP sandwich we end up with ~ 14:1 Me.

Now in this paper there were reactive elements that were tested with thin explosive layers to enhance the bulging effect on the outer steel plates...these ranged from 4-6 times the base values and if these super reactive forces are applied to the MEXAS model thats 4.6 x 4-6 or ME of 18:1 -28:1.

The paper showed that MEXAS @ 15° offers as much protection as ERA @ 60-70°. If you take Blazer this is two 2-3mm steel plates and a couple of mm of explosives [density ~ 1.8g/cc?]...any way thats ~ 6mm steel mass @ 60-70° or 12-18mm steel...the ME of these ERAs are reported to be ~ 20:1 meaning this resistance is ~ 240-350mm. Thus MEXAS with a steel mass of ~ 7mm is as effective as >250mm RHAe or a ME of 36:1!!!!

Heres the crunch...studies of bulging plates show that plate speed is the key. Well if the above chemical reactive forces can 'bulge' a plate sufficently to tripple quadruple its effectiveness , image how effective they would be on a small ceramic [B4C ]nugget? Rosenberg and Dekel wrote several papers on the parameters of this bulging prossess...it was clear that if you increases the interlayer or reduced the thickness of the outer steel plate [mass], the plate bulging velocity shot up [going from 200-800m/s in some cases].

Could be that instead of tripple its 6-8 times the ME against shaped charges? That would be an ME of ~ 32-37 .

KE resistance would suck...incomparison but it could still be overall very effective against small diameter projectiles....

------------------------------


A recent paper in the Int.J.Impact Engng [Vol26,pp831-841] Webber et al ,examined the KE resistance of layered ceramics [AiN] with thin interlayers [PMMA] mounted on RHA. In these test the resistance of AiN compared to RHAe [~400BHN]was tested ....these targets had plate diameters to the subscale penetrator diameters of 9:1 to 14:1, which is very close to what I believe the approxiamte ceramic dimensions are in modern tanks armor.

In the tests the reference RHAe penetration was 90mm while the block of AiN resistance was 0.98 Te [thickness effectiveness]. That means 10cm of AiN could be expected to offer the equivellent of 98mm RHA. When the same thickness of ceramic was divided into thinner plates [change t/d from 7:1 to 0.6:1]. The resistance went from 0.98 Te to 0.9 showing that large reduction in t/d reduces resistance only by 9%. When the same target had thin plexiglas sheets added inbetween each of the 12 thin ceramic plates, the resistance was reduced to 0.86 T/d.

This is a reduction of 12%, but with the dilution of the target with lower density interlayers [ 3.26g/cc for AiN & 1.2g/cc for PMMA], the effective resistance over all didn't change much.Because thicker over all array could be constructed with the same armor mass.

If 10cm of steel mass was devoted to the insert effectives, a straight AiN insert would amount to 24cm thick, with a overall KE resistance of ~23.6cm RHAe. If the same armor mass was devoted to a AiN /Plexiglas multi layered target [2.98 g/cc average density], then the array thickness increases to 26cm .The effectiveness over all is reduced to 22.6cm RHAe...this is a reduction in resistance to ~96%.

So why is this practice reported to be done? Firstly the paper reports that constructing ceramics in blocks thick enough for heavy tank targets is very expensice. If the same thickness was composed of thinner plates this would reduce cost considerably. Since armor is secondary to firepower/FCS cost , this is not a small consideration.

In addition these targets where struck at normal impact angles, at angle the resistance may improve. In a paper from the institute @ Chobham [Hohler etal int.J.Impact Engng Vol-26 , pp 333-344] , layered ceramic targets @ 0° & 60° showed that atleast for subscale models, the @ 60° layered ceramic [Alumina AD-97] steel target resistance was higher than the same LOS target thickness @ 0° impact angle. In otherwards something in the layering at angle helps to defeat long rod penetrators.

However there may be another reason why multilayers with interlayers is practiced ,because it improves shaped charge resistance.

In a paper by Hornemann & Holzwarth [Int.J.Impact Engng Vol 20,pp375-386], various layered ceramic steel targets where fired on by 5cm subscale shaped charge warheads .In these tests at normal impact angle the reference penetration into RHA was 216mm while the optimum ceramic [AD-92]/steel resistance was 116mm suggesting an overall Te of 1.8 RHAe. Another target was the same construction with a rubber layer inbetween each ceramic tile [ ratio 1 rubber to 6 ceramic , similar to the AiN tests mentioned above].In this target the resistance worked out to 1.73 Te [125mm].The cross sectional density of the two different arrays was 3.5g/cc and 3.2g/cc, thus if we had 10cm of steel mass for an insert the straight AD-92 target could offer 22cm ceramic thickness for an effectiveness of ~40cm RHAe. The Ceramic Rubber target should have a thickness of 24cm and an effectiveness of ~42cm RHAe.Thats about a 5% improvement in resistance.


----------------------

VM-04 "Analysis of Active Protection system: When Athena meets Arena" Wey , Fleck & Chanteret.
Reportedly Arena was first introduced in 1992 and it incorperates
A MM wave radar for incoming missile detection
32 x'focused grenade' for hitting inbound missile
A control unit.
An accompanging diagram shows radar scanns 50m radius around tank from mast mounted MMwave radar and intercept occurs a few meters from the tank.

Simulation of this shows a 150mm grenade is needed to get sufficent 'spray of fragments' powerfull enough to destroy a missile.. In theory a single fragement hit should generate 70% kill while two hits should accumulate a 90% hit chance.

Further simulation reveals that % of hits as follows

narrow azimuth and wide azimuth simulations where tried with a grenade detonated with to cover a 10° azimuth angle with no repeats while the second grenade covered 20° allowing two grenades to cover each sector with drop in intercept probablity.

The results are below...

chance of a hit on a missile approaching


Hull Turret from the azimuth in question.

Single 10° 85%[4.8m 4 fragments] 90%[2.6m 10 fragments]
overlaping 20° 50%[5.5m 1 fragment] 90%[2.1m 6 fragments]

Clearly some precise detonation is needed since a change of detonation angle reduces the number of fragments dramatically [ ~ 3-4 fragments] and lower hit chance... 1 fragmemt = 50% over hull compared to 4 fragments resulting in 85% hit.

These are the results of lab simulations [controlled] and battlefield conditions should bring these figures down dramatically.For example its reported that this system doubles the effectiveness of the tank...which can be interpeted as 50% hit chance against incoming missiles.This is probably a good ball park figure to work with when estiamting the effectiveness of these active defence systems.

In WM-01 "Active Protection against KE-rounds and shaped charges at short distance" M- Held, reports that Droz only covers 40°either side of the gun while Arena covers 340°

VM-14 "Defeating Active Defence Systems by Double firing of missiles." M-Held, reports that Drost fragment covers only ± 0.5m meter area while Arena is ± 2m either side of the grenade direction.

Held also notes that the sensor will have dead time thats 1-3 seconds that can't get a detection so firing two missiles from the same launcher should be an effective way to ensure second missile reaches target.[Alternatively two launch systems within 10m of each other can diplicate this if some precise system can 'similtaneously fire' the missiles].Held estiamtes that if the system is automated it can place the second missile 20m behind the first giving enough seperation to clear the debri field before impacting the target, stationary or on the move.

Held suspects that BMP with 'Khrizantema' missile system may well already have this capability.



------------------------

In a paper recently published in the Int.J.Impact Engng [Vol-26 pp 735-744] A group of Russian researchers [Svirsky etal from Russian Federal Nuclear Center] studied the effects of spaced armor on 120mm 100mm & 46mm shaped charges....the results are quite surprising!

They analyse post penetration xrays radio graqphs of thin spaced plates and found the same large post penetration jet disruption zone that I reported about before [ the 14mm thick steel aluminum sandwhich causing a 28-30cm disruption zone in the jet]. They report this segment of the jet has very poor penetration.

Any way they tested 120mm shaped charge against a spaced armor target with 200mm steel in three plates @ 7 CD standoff and measured the residual penetration at 77-80% of the reference penetration. Which wasn't given, but it should have be 840mm, thus Pexp should be 65-67cm.So the array offer 19-17cm or 0.85 to 0.95 LOS thickness. Not very good idea!

The next test was a 100mm shaped charge fired at a 38mm spaced steel aluminum array @ 5.8 total diameters standoff, infront of RHA semifinite target . This resulted again in 80% reduction of penetration into the reference material. Again assuming 7 CD reference penetration, the spaced plates accounted for 132mm of RHA [ 132/35 ] , so the array was ~ 3.8 times as effective as its LOS/Te values suggest.Not bad at all and consistant with previous findinds [~ 3 x LOS for spaced a single steel plate].

Next target was a 100mm shaped charge fired at a 62mm two plate spaced steel array @ 6.8 total diameters standoff . This resulted about 70% reduction of penetration into the reference material. Again assuming 7 CD reference penetration, the spaced plates accounted for 204mm of RHA [ 204/62 ] , so the array was ~ 3.2 times as effective as its LOS/Te values suggest.

Finally they tested 46mm shaped charge @ 2.2 CD standoff into RHA and got a penetration of 157±7mm ( 3 shots) [ 70° copper cone 1mm thick liner , with a 6.6 km/s tip V and 350mm break up distance].Next the placed a 1mm plate 0.5d from the reference RHAe and this reduced the penetration to an astonishing 124±5mm penetration[ 3 shots]....again about a 20% reduction in penetration.

It seems that the average resistance offered by a spaced armor array -reguardless of its thickness - is about 22% average reduction in modern shaped charge penetration [20-30% range].Infact it seems to suggest that the thicker the spaced plate the less effective it is at defeating shaped charges.

This effect is confirmed by Hornemann & Holzwarth [ Int.J.Impact Engng- Vol 20 pp 375-386]. The reference penetration against a straight RHA target was 215mm while penetration into spaced target with 72mm thick spaced plate was 200mm and a similar target with 20mm spaced plate resulted in a penetration of 195mm ...in other words the 72mm spaced plate accounted for 87mm resistance [1.2 x LOS] , while the 20mm plate resulted in 40mm resistance [ 2 x LOS].

So all those thin boxes and side skirts placed on the sides and rear of AFVs do offer a considerable increase in resistance. Check out Chieftain tank, by Mk 13 the side profile is >80% covered in boxes and side skirts and Still brew... Thus even the side turret [ 15cm RHA ] should be able to boost the resistance against basic RPG-7 , by 6cm to ~ 21cm....assuming those boxes are empty.The above test figures are for modern jets where increase in the standoff alone should not reduce penetration atall. But early RPG -7 was 'none precision jet' so with the standoff this should increase resistance by ~2 diameter or + 15cm , bringing the average side turret resistance to ~ 36cm.

Against a 'precision charge' [RPG-7V],the resistance should be down ~22cm due to lack of any significant standoff reduction at this level. However if the storage boxes are full of material with an average density of plastic that should bring the total side turret resistance to ~ 35cm . Only difference is that it should be equally effective against both 'precision and none precision' jets .

QUOTE

Despite the impressive reduction in penetration provided by the most energetic armour, the residual penetration is still enough to penetrate the underlying hull armour any of the APC/IFVs out there. So RPGs will be able to penetrate MEXAS type targets with 73mm warheads (a mere 365 mm basic penetration in this case, right?), let alone the many generations of improved grenade that followed.

Damage will be mitigated, compared to the unprotected vehicle, but it will happen nonetheless, and it doesn't take very much residual RHA piercing power to kill a soldier, or detonate stowed ammunition in the path of the jet.

Definitely looking forward to those papers!


I agree with you premise how ever the way I understand it the current armor is probably resistant to most RPG-7V strikes...thats to say if Herr Diesenroth figure are to be taken at face value , the 20mm Mexas applique @ 10-20o is as effective as ERA @ 60o. In the other paper the 14mm ERA @ 60o offered > 11 times the LOS resistance so this suggest MExas @ 10-20o offers at least the same.

Thats LOS 21-22mm x 11.25 = 24-25cm...add the base armor [~ 15mm RHAe] = ~ 26cm RHAe. From the other paper on liners a simple thin PE liner should reduce kill % 10%, while other papers in that symposium suggest better materials will do better [ ~ 20%?] thats an additional 4-7cm possible resistance. This brings the potential side hull resistance up to 30-33cm from straight on ....from 30o off angle [ more likely case] thats 35-38cm effective RHAe.

OK I realize this is mostly calculation, but if this is totally correct it means a 16,000-17,000kg AFV can have the allround protection of a 55 ton Chieftain [ with all those lovely storage boxes and skirting plates]....any way you cut it thats a considerable increase!


----------------------

In another paper on various energetic armors [TB61 Combination of inert and energetic materials in reactive armor against shaped charge jets . Holzwarth & Weimann] , they test fired 73mm jets into various energetic armors mounted ahead of a 230BHN semi infinite target and the following figures where generated.All arrays were 2mm steel 10mm interlayer 2mm steel and the angle of array was 60°, thus the array LOS was 28mm.

Preference DOP = 365mm thus difference /28mm = array RHAe
S-rubber-S = 280mm = 3 x LOS thickness
S-GAP-S = 280mm = 3 x LOS thickness
S-Gap+R-S = 250mm = 4.1 x LOS thickness
S-Gap-exp-S = 190-120mm = 6.2- 8.8 x LOS thickness

S=Steel
GAP=polymer
Gap+R= GAP + CaCO3 or GZT
Gap+exp = GAP + explosive

Now it was shown that the GAP material is forced to undergo a additional chemical reaction when a small layer [1mm] of explosive is involved resulting in P of 150-170mm or a thickness effectivness of 6.6 to 7.7. This is much more than the GAP with the CaCO3 , which generates some gas bubbles in the array, which under the pressure of impact enhance the distruption of the jet.

I can only conclude that the Mexas must have found a way of doing this same kind of thing without the thin explosive layer!

Its becoming apparent that in addition to the bulging of the plates ,the expanding gases in the ERA sandwich maybe interfering with the jet as well.


------------------------

American 76mm M-32 gun with M464 APFSDS round ; This is 1.63 kg tungsten alloy penetrator with a MV of 1400m/s with a Vdrop probably similar to M-500 round of 76m/s/km with an L/d of 15:1 and a diameter of 20.6mm or 309mm length . Such a rod would be 103cc volume or 1.80 kg @ 17.5 g/cc density, but if the nose and tail had a ‘truncated form’ the volume could be reduced to the 93-95cc volume that a 1.66kg , close to the 1.63 suggest weight . Using Andersons the values are – 0.74 [ L/d effect] , x 1.16 [scaling] and plus 1. 2 d semi infinite conversion @ 0° and 2.4 d @ 60°….that’s + 24mm & + 48mm and the 60° penetration is a line of sight penetration. Going on these imputes the penetration should be …


Muzzle [ 1400 m/s] = 0.84 x 31cm = 28 cm ± 4cm @ 0° & 31cm ± 4cm @ 60°
1000m [ 1324 m/s] = 0.745 x 31cm = 25cm ± 4cm @ 0° & 28cm ± 4cm @ 60°
2000m [ 1248 m/s] = 0.65 x 31cm = 23cm ± 3cm @ 0° & 25cm ± 4cm @ 60°
3000m [ 1172 m/s] = 0.56 x 31cm = 20cm ± 3cm @ 0° & 22cm ± 3cm @ 60°


So the T-62/55 tanks and the lighter armor of most early model T-64/80 Russian tanks, can be dealt with @ 1-2km unless covered by ERA elmemets.

Not sure why the website has different name than JANES but they got the ammo figures wrong

Projectile weight.....................52 Kg (5.54 lb)

52kg????, even if its 5.2kg , that should be ~ 11.44 lb.

But NATO Triple heavy plate @ 57° is a different target, usually its @ 65°.

NATO Triple heavy targets Vs 21mm diameter APFSDS should be
x 10mm [ @ 412-438 kp/mm² ]+330 air +25mm [@ 100-122 kp/mm² ] +330 air +80mm, [@ 308-353 kp/mm² ] .

Thats 1cm SHS [ 1.2Te x 0.6 (t/d)] + 2.5cm Mild steel [0.8 Te x 0.88 (t/d)] + 8cm Heavy RHA [1.1 Te x 0.95 (t/d)] ...0.72+1.76 +8.36 = 10.84 @ 57°[/0.5446]= 19.9cm plus spaced plate effect. This should be an average of 1 rod diameter per spaced plate or + 41mm [ ~ 24cm]....

But with such a health air gap between plates the yaw of the attacking rod should be a factor. What little data I have suggests the yaw will be about ~ 1/COS² of the impact angle [57° ~ 0.5446 or 1/0.5446² = 3.4 times] .Since the average impact yaw 0.5 to 2° , this suggests 2-7° Yaw through the spaced plates. Given a 15:1 L/d thats a 'critical yaw' of ~2.3 or 1-3 times the Critical yaw, for a loss of 3-20% or additional 0.5-3 rod diameters. [Int.J.Impact Engng Vol-12 pp 281-292]


Thats about 24.5-30cm approximate resistance for the NATO triple heavy plate @ 57° or an average of 27± 3cm RHAe against that projectile.



--------------------------


If a steel spaced plate is 0.2 t/d [5/8 inch = 2 inch] of a steel attacking AP type projectile, then this will decap the APC/APCBC projectile. This will end up offering 1.2 times the LOS resistance for the spaced plate arrangement, thus a 5/8 inch spaced plate and a 1.87 inch LOS thickness of plate should offer 2.25 inches of RHA resistance. If the threat is a WC core APDS/HVAP with a steel sheath this should offer ~ 1.5 times the LOS resistance while aluminum sheathed WC cores appear to result in 1.7-1.8 times the LOS resistance.

2 inch Steel APC = 1.2 x 1.87 inches or ~ 2.25 inches armor. [+ 0.2d] 1 x t/d .
2 inch Steel-WC HVAP/APDS = 1.5 x 1.87 = 2.8 inches armor. [ + 0.5d] 2 x t/d .
2 inch Aluminum-WC HVAP/APDS = 1.7-1.8 x 1.87 = 3.2- 3.4 inches armor. [+ 0.66-0.76 d] 3.3-4 x t/d.


1 inch Steel APC Vs t/d 0.625d [x 1] + 1.87 inches x 1.33 ~ 2.5 inches armor.[ + 0.6d = 1 x t/d]
1 inch Steel-WC HVAP/APDS Vs t/d 0.625 [2 x ] = 1.66 x 1.87 inches or ~ 3.1 inches armor.[+ 1.23d = 2 x t/d]
1 inch Aluminum-WC HVAP/APDS Vs t/d 0.625 [4 x] 2.35 x 1.87 inches or ~ 4.4 inches armor.[+ 2.0d = ~ 3.3 x t/d]

The above is interesting because the sharp tip of a ogive penetrator only appears to add 0.5d to the projectile L/d, so clearly the damage to the penetrator goes far beyond the disintegration of the tip.


Looking at modern APFSDS work , the spaced plate will offer a certain amount of rod shortning since its reported that at least one rod diameter is lost due to exiting the rear of each spaced plate. "When the target 'fails', that is there is perforation,the projectile no longer encounters and further resistance but projectile erosion continues some microseconds because of the large residual stresses in the plastic zone". [2001 Int Symp on Ballistic- TB-16].

In a test shot 16.5mm diameter 30:1 L/d WHA where fired at 1.8kms per second @ a spaced plate series of 6 x 19mm [340 BHN] RHA spaced plates infront of a witness plate. When the penetrator struck this arrangement it penetrated ~ 444mm of spaced plate and back up armor set back at an angle of 65°.

Had the penetrator struck a straight single block of 340 BHN RHA @ the same angle this should have generated a LOS penetration of ~ 533mm . Thus the difference [444-533 = 99mm/6= 16.5mm per plate], was an additional +1d [rod diameter] resistance for each spaced plate in the armor array.


-----------------

Light weight armor is being developed that can proof most AFVs against 7.62mm & 12.7mm AP shots that hardly adds much to the vehicles mass. The armor against 7.62mm would be 1/6 inch steel mass while armor mass needed to proof against 12.7mm is ~ ¼ inch steel mass. In the Int.J.Impact Engng Vol-19,pp 361-379 thin plates of aluminum and ABS sheets are sandwiched between ultra thin sheets of aluminm arranged perpedicular to the outer sandwich plates in a honey comb and wave pattern ‘flexcore’. This sandwich arrangement is shown to boost resistance 15-70% over the sum of resistance the individual elements show.


outer sheets
12.7mm vs 2x 1.5mm ABS 2x 0.8mm AL 2x 1.6mm AL
Flat 20m/s 50m/s 60 m/s
Conical 20m/s 50m/s 50m/s

6.35mm Vs 2x 1.5mm ABS 2x 0.8mm AL 2x 1.6mm AL
Flat 45m/s 60m/s 130 m/s
Conical 50m/s 65m/s 140m/s


While the insert 16mm insert offered

12.7mm Flexcore Honeycomb
Flat 15-20m/s 20- 30m/s
Conical 10-20m/s 30-40m/s
6.35mm Vs Flexcore Honeycomb
Flat 30m/s 20-30m/s
Conical 10-15m/s 10-15m/s


Thus the sum of the parts and the actual ballistic limit with the noted increase in effectiveness is below.
12.7mm conical AP shot vs 2 x 1.6mm AL & 16mm flexcore = 70-80m/s , when BL is 90m/s = + 20-30% density = 0.49g/cc
12.7mm conical AP shot vs 2 x 0.8mm AL & 16mm flexcore = 70-80m/s , when BL is 50m/s = - 30-40% density = 0.39g/cc
12.7mm conical AP shot vs 2 x 1.5mm ABS & 16mm flexcore = 35-40m/s , when BL is 39-41m/s = same density = 0.2g/cc


The sum of the parts and the actual ballistic limit with the noted increase in effectiveness is below.
12.7mm flat AP shot vs 2 x 1.6mm AL & 16mm flexcore = 75-80m/s , when BL is 119m/s = + 50-60% density = 0.49g/cc
12.7mm flat AP shot vs 2 x 0.8mm AL & 16mm flexcore = 65-70m/s , when BL is 62m/s = - 05-10% density = 0.39g/cc
12.7mm flat AP shot vs 2 x 1.5mm ABS & 16mm flexcore = 35-40m/s , when BL is 40m/s = same ; density = 0.2g/cc
A similar mass 3.8mm thick steel target should offer a BL of ~ 170m/s to a 12.7mm flat steel shot.


Thus the sum of the parts and the actual ballistic limit with the noted increase in effectiveness is below.
6.35mm conical AP shot vs 2 x 1.6mm AL & 16mm flexcore = 140-145m/s , when BL is 195m/s = + 35-40% density = 0.49g/cc
6.35mm conical AP shot vs 2 x 0.8mm AL & 16mm flexcore = 75-80m/s , when BL is 114m/s = + 40-50% density = 0.39g/cc
6.35mm conical AP shot vs 2 x 1.5mm ABS & 16mm flexcore = 60-65m/s , when BL is 67m/s = same density = 0.2g/cc


6.35mm flat AP shot vs 2 x 1.6mm AL & 16mm flexcore = 160m/s , when BL is 180m/s = + 12% density = 0.49g/cc
6.35mm flat AP shot vs 2 x 0.8mm AL & 16mm flexcore = 80m/s , when BL is 110m/s = + 37% density = 0.39g/cc
6.35mm flat AP shot vs 2 x 1.5mm ABS & 16mm flexcore = 75m/s , when BL is 68m/s = - 10% density = 0.2g/cc


So inorder to stop a 12.7mm Sharp AP at point blank range you would require > 11 times the 0.49 density thick array ~ 5.5g/cc or 21cm thick array or a 7mm steel mass. A similar penetration against RHA should result in armor of ~ 35mm , which gives the armor a mass efficiency of ~5 . [Te of 0.17]

To stop a 12.7mm flat head Shot , would require almost 9 times the thickness or 16cm thick array with a steel mass of 4.3g/cc or ~5mm steel mass.

So in order to stop a 6.35mm Sharp AP at point blank range you would require > 5 times the 0.49 density thick array ~ 2.6g/cc or 10cm thick array or a 3mm steel mass. A similar penetration against RHA should result in armor of ~15- 16mm , which gives the armor a mass efficiency of >5. [Te of ~ 0.16]

To stop a 6.35mm flat head Shot , would require almost 6 times the thickness or 11cm thick array with a steel mass of 2.8g/cc or ~4mm steel mass.


It seems the bigger the diameter of the shot the more efficient the armor becomes and it seems that from studies of the damage around the impact point the array displaces the impact energy along the flexcore members. Truth is this should also be a fairly mass effective armor against continuous jet shaped charges.In studies of shaped charge penetration of low density materials a density should result in the 21cm array offering ~13cm HEAT , while 16cm array should offer ~10cm HEAT resistance and a 10cm array should offer ~5cm HEAT protection against semi particulated jet.

------------------------

Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA)

The traditional flyer plate explosive filled ERA. Its main CE jet defeat mechanisms are jet erosion, jet deflection, and jet rotation (i.e. in the pitch and yaw axes, not the roll axis). Against KE rounds its performance varies depending on the number of plates. If it only has a front flyer plate and an immobile back-plate it defeats by deflection, rotation, and fracture of the rod. An X-ray shows a medium caliber rod broken 1/3 of the way along its length, and bent at a 20-30 degree angle around that point. However, if the ERA has front and rear flyer plates the defeat mechanisms also include erosion. X-rays of this configuration show the rod being reduced to an angled stream of crushed fragments on the far side of the rear flyer-plate.

Upside: Of all the types they describe they rate it as the "most effective proven technologies against CE and KE munitions". It's inexpensive, easy to make, and has good multi-hit capability in modular configurations.

Downside: It's full of explosive, which leads to user uneasiness, and high costs of storage, logistics, security, etc. It has a high weight burden if the vehicle needs reinforcement to handle the explosion.

Self-Limiting Explosive Reactive Armour (SLERA)

Apparently flyer-plate type armour, like ERA, but with less violent explosive material.

Upside: Comparable performance to ERA, but with less effect on vehicle, "extremely insensitive explosive material", good modular multi-hit configuration, inexpensive and easy to fabricate.

Downside: Still has explosive in it, with all its bad PR, and it's not as effective as fully detonable explosives. Considered unproven technology.

Non-Energetic Reactive Armour (NERA)

These are the plate-bulging armours. Defeat mechanisms are jet erosion, deflection, and rotation.

Upside: "Very effective against CE munitions", pasive, easy on vehicle structure, excellent multihit capability vs CE, easy modular integration, and inexpensive and easy to make.

Downside: "Configurations tested to date not effective vs. KE rounds", although they are trying to make them work against medium caliber KE. (i.e. autocannons)

Interestingly, they show a picture of an array set up for testing, composed of 6 double layered plates held apart by impromptu spacers. They label it "Khafji Armor".

Non-Explosive Reactive Armour (NxRA)

Apparently a slightly more violent version of plate-bulging NERA-type armours. Defeat mechanisms are, once again, jet erosion, deflection, and rotation.

Upside: "More effective than NERA vs. CE munitions", good multi-hit capability vs CE, easy modular integration, inexpensive and easy to fabricate.

Downside: Believed to be not effective vs KE rounds (implying they haven't checked yet, it seems).


I find it interesting that despite the desire to find safer, milder forms of reactive armour, the best performance is still given by the explosively driven versions. It seems that nothing substitutes for a fast, violent, massive interaction with the incoming threat.


NASA's X-43A Scramjet Breaks Speed Record (http://www.nasa.gov/missions/research/x43-main.html)
SCRAMjet (http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/lp/lasdiag/scram.html)
RAMjet (http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/ramjet.html)
Electric Armor (http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=15)

Anything else you want?

And as for LIDAR and superalloys that means I have to scan in over two thousand pages of fine print so I'm not about to do that any time soon...]

[OOC:

Other links:

Polymer Composites (http://www.pslc.ws/mactest/composit.htm)
Naval Penetration Formula (http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/defin_1.html)
MISCELLANEOUS NAVAL-ARMOR-RELATED FORMULAE (http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Miscarmr.htm)
TABLE OF METALLURGICAL PROPERTIES OF NAVAL ARMOR AND CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS (http://www.combinedfleet.com/metalprp2002.htm)
Gun Systems - much of this although it says future was actually released ten years ago (http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_TankGun,,00.html)

]

OOC: Please no SCRAMjets. They are beyond the technical levels of AMW. Even optimistic projects of the Fasthawk scramjet missile put it at 2012. The MTAAM-3 also seems a bit small for it's range and warhead weight (Phoenix and AMRAAM are by comparison around 4m long and wider)

I'm also not too sure about the effectiveness of 1st generation LIDAR against natural conditions, and also their power use may render them availible only to the larger aircraft.

OOC: Please no SCRAMjets. They are beyond the technical levels of AMW. Even optimistic projects of the Fasthawk scramjet missile put it at 2012. The MTAAM-3 also seems a bit small for it's range and warhead weight (Phoenix and AMRAAM are by comparison around 4m long and wider)

I'm also not too sure about the effectiveness of 1st generation LIDAR against natural conditions, and also their power use may render them availible only to the larger aircraft.

[OOC: According to a 1962 article I own an infra-red LIDAR works awsome under tought conditions, such as dust and clouds.]

Mac raises an interesting point though...how do we introduce new tech? Should we keep track of whose got the most intelligent populations in the UN ratings...and use that to represent technological advancements through the nations scientists?

This could make the game entirely different...comparing the different AMW nations in all sorts of categories could help us understand the differences caused by different gov'ts being in power (as compared to RL).

[OOC: I've done the math of what I've spent so far:

530 million USD on that weaponry..not the billions and billions you claim.]

News of a rebellion in Spain comes as a shock to Hindustan, and once the nature of it is learned it becomes even more surprising.

Once reports of advanced weaponry, such as a tank superior to the Abrams, reach the HDF commanders, they become very worried. After all, the HDF's tank force is struggling to exceed 500 near-obsolete types, kept alive through endless upgrade packages and modifications. From reports, its looking as though one of these phantom vehicles could take on a good portion of the HDF's tank arm and stand a chance of winning.

This is naturally unsettling, but, like usual, Hindustan stays out of sight until BG's reaction is determined.

Most of the European nations are vastly different to the RL ones, Israel is under the control of a united Middle Eastern power (United Elias), and the US is Quintonnia, so no nation can claim they "borrow" technology from other nations. Basically all research must be independently done, hence making it much more costly.

If a nation wants a Raptor equivalent, they'll have to pay a Raptor-equivalent price.

OK, I've given your "research" over to my friends who are engineers, well, not yet, they graduate in a month and half, but anyway, they are taking to their profs and looking it over themselves. The words "consistancy of chalk" has already come up, though.....

WWJD
Amen.

Most of the European nations are vastly different to the RL ones, Israel is under the control of a united Middle Eastern power (United Elias), and the US is Quintonnia, so no nation can claim they "borrow" technology from other nations. Basically all research must be independently done, hence making it much more costly.

If a nation wants a Raptor equivalent, they'll have to pay a Raptor-equivalent price.

[OOC: My tank costs twice as much as an Abrams and my aircraft thrice as much as an Su-37.]

((Yelllooo. Que paso? I just had one question. Now, IRL, Spain is a Constitutional Monarchy...indeed, King Juan Carlos II is a Bourbon: the only Bourbon in the world left on a throne ((not counting pretenders)). Now, hopefully if France is allowed to remain in AMW, you will have a absolute monarchy to your north, on whose throne sits a Bourbon, clearly who would be a relative of the Spanish King, indeed related closer or at the level of 1st cousin. How does your Spain deal with that?))

((Coughs))

What is going on here? We piont out that he is pretty much making up everything he says and he leaves? BTW, my engineering friends are now saying things like, "I'm not sure that this stuff even qualifies as a metal. This would never work in a field test."
WWJD
Amen.

[OOC: Well I'm not even sure if you guys are allowing me to stick around... I've received no word yet. Again, my rail guns are out, as well as my SCRAMjet..however, keeping at pace with the other things being developed on NS my weaponry is feasable. Indeed, much of it is designed after old Soviet weapons... if you have any specific inquiries on something feel free to ask.

EDIT:

Also, my AP Physics teacher was on the TASM project and he green lights most of my stuff. I've also talked with quite a few engineers at the Lockheed Martin plant fifteen minutes from my house. I don't pull crap out of my ass...well sometimes I do :p ]

((Yelllooo. Que paso? I just had one question. Now, IRL, Spain is a Constitutional Monarchy...indeed, King Juan Carlos II is a Bourbon: the only Bourbon in the world left on a throne ((not counting pretenders)). Now, hopefully if France is allowed to remain in AMW, you will have a absolute monarchy to your north, on whose throne sits a Bourbon, clearly who would be a relative of the Spanish King, indeed related closer or at the level of 1st cousin. How does your Spain deal with that?))

[OOC: For that to be answered you're going to have to wait until I continue with this role play.]

Please continue Mac...we'll get the tech stuff settled shlater. Don't let this slow down a good rp!

Why don't you just stick to existing stuff for now, wouldn't that make it easier?
Tsar Wingert I.

[OOC: Because I know my stuff the best, and I could do Soviet weaponry but that would require me being Soviet, and I'm not. However, before I continue, an Abrams would be able to knock out a BredtSverdt, however, as I stated before, this isn't supposed to be accurate...for this civil war to work I need to paint an image of invincibility for Catalan and uber tank battles in which BredtSverdt come out unscathed are critical to such an image. If I ever went to war with someone using American technology of course I would take casualties. Depending on the RP goes and how well the other guy can strategize I would take heavy casualties at that.

EDIT:

Man I have to read over this again because I don't remember where I left off *me am lazy*]

Here's this will continue at this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8519590#post8519590) thread.. use the present one as OOC please.