NationStates Jolt Archive

Not to be an ass or something but when I read through war RP's I notice a serious lack of strategic aspects, which is something worth to add. You know, months or years ago I - Holy Panooly - faced an invasion by ViZion, British Communists and Xadawiland (deceased). An overwhelming force, outnumbering me like hell. I could have sat down and moaning it was a dogpile but instead, I started to think how to make their life miserable while taking as little damage possible. Because I played my nation is an extremely hostile natural enviroment and used the right tactics at the right time, the invasion failed and I won. This RP - shame it has been purged - is a very good example why strategy works in NationStates. But you hear people saying: "it takes too much time" or "I don't know if they work". The first reason not to think of your actions is bull. When you play this game *seriously* you can expect to spend a good few hours on a single war to make it fun to read, interesting to spend time on etc etc. The second reason is also nonsense. For example, the war between me and Russian Forces. I knew for a fact (and reading some of RF's earlier wars) that he was surely going to attack with many tanks and soldiers. A resived German blitzkrieg. But:
Little to no airsupport
No back-up plans
Difficult terrain, extensive defence networks.
When you attack, keep some basic information about the nation you are invading in the back of your head. Such as:
What kind of nation he is (democracy; oppressive policestate; anarchy)
Enviroment, weather conditions. A -40F° blizzard affects your troops, same holds for a desert climate with no water.
Citizens. Are they eager to be liberated or better off under the present regime? You can expect serious opposition from citizens when you start to slaughter everyone you encounter.
Realism. Look at Lebanon and Syria. Lb wants to be free, free from Syria's presence in the country. People riot, and the same will happen in the nations you conquer.
Let's say RF attacked me with his tanks and men. If the war went well I'm quite sure I would be destroyed large portions of his invading army. I hear you saying: "How on earth are you so sure about that?" Simple.
I knew ICly RF was going to use those weapons of war. I responded to that by building large amounts of anti-tank weapons, with the right ammunition of course.
Large defence networks, extensive radar coverage, technological advantage.
Creativity. Anti-tank ditches are fun, but an artifical mudfield is much better.
A well thought-out counter attack plan. Instead of throwing in ridiculous large numbers, localized hits are much more effective.
Airsupport. Lots of it.
A different setting requires different strategies and tactics. With a regular army in the jungle you won't get far even with the most modern military technology, a guerrillia cannot be beaten. Legion examples available. Iraq, Afghanistan (Russian and American invasion), Vietnam, the Boer war... You know them better than I do. When you are fighting nation who is technological superior to you on one or more military diciplines (if more's the case you shouldn't have fought him in the first place; know who to fight) concentrate on defence. Don't play hero and send in your rowboats when he has cruisers, destroyers etc.

Why don't people use tactics?

If you think everybody is mindlessly sending in forces just to pummel his/her opponent then you are wrong. Using tactics requires insight and creativity. If a nation is a desert, cut off their water supplies and they'll die of dehydration instead of bullets. Weapons play also a major role in having the proper means of taking out your enemy. For example, you are in a dense forrest, the enemy is on a 'search and destroy' mission. You are in a tactical situation where the enemy clearly has the upper hand, so giving away your position is the last thing you want.
DO NOT USE:
Firearms (without silencer)
Melee weapons
Random ExplosivesUSE THESE:
Crossbows or Bow and Arrow
Blowguns (with poisoned darts of course)
Silenced Weapons (handguns work just as good as a semi-automatic weapon)
Strategic Explosive Devices (Claymores landmines, etc)
Javelins
Throwing knives
Throwing starsThese weapons take training, and might be difficult to employ for the beginning roleplayer, but sniper rifles aren't the easiest weapons there are as well. Balancing issue: cheap throwing knives that require training and can be re-used after ever throw or an expensive sniper rifle that might have difficulties firing and handling in cold or heat but has an outstanding range? Up to you, and what suits you best.

And if anyone dares to say any of the blue weapons cannot be lethal, please try it out on your pet or grandmother. These weapons aren't banned without a reason in various countries. Explosives are bit of a border case. Though they work extremely well in traps or when you look down on a crowd, being silent works the best. The blast draws unwanted attention to you. Silenced weapons work like a charm in such situations, no matter its "regular" urban combat, or stealth missions.
Guns are useful, but only when you know when to use them effectively. Like Iuthia says, use an AK47 in the jungle instead of an M16. Melee weapons are useful when you can take someone from behind, in real life it's easy, but in RP it's unpractical. Stick with ranged weapons, and you'll be quite safe. Remember, these weapons are to harass and demoralize soldiers. A severely damaged morale is as destructive as bodybags, mind you. Rate of fire, or rate of kills? It's up to you. Accuracy or destruction? A choice you have to make.

Emotions affect your thinking process. If we go back to the British Communists/Xadawiland/ViZion coalition I insisted to let them RP the feelings of their troops. Constant ambushes, traps, seeing your buddies killed by bamboo spikes. Psycological disorders are a result of such experiences and will make your troops more reckless, less thinking about their actions and has an impact on morale. If we go to something more recent, HP/Praetonia then the men Praetonia sent down are untrained, except one. The men I RPed are tough by themselves, every day is a struggle to survive while they only have to wait in the messhall to get food. These details also have influence. Someone who has to hunt for food every week will have less trouble finding food or water in the woods than someone who sits on the couch every day eating microwave meals. A bit extreme, but you get the idea.

Tools are also a vital piece in survival for your men in the field. When you are walking through the searing heat of a desert or any other extreme environment, carrying a backpack, tents, pans, weapons, ammo is just too much to carry. Food and water not even included. Here's where logistics come into play. Just make sure your soldiers have these basic tools of survival with them at all times: knife, whetstone (a dull knife is useless), flint to make fire, compass. With these simple things and a sane mind you can get very far with only basic survival training.

We're done with theory, now for a real example. I roleplayed with Praetonia I took over a ship of his. I was down below with three men, two armed with daggers and a machete, one had a two-shot pistol. Praetonia tried to take me with one man carrying an assault rifle, and three men carrying one handgun each. (thread url: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=402693) Irrevelant parts are left out, this starts at post #8.
The seven make-shift marines crept quitely along one of the corridors of the less elegant third-class cabins. They thought it logical to start where there would eb fewest looters, and then work their way up. That would pick them off a few at a time, as well as ensure that they wouldn't be surrounded.

"I can 'ere something," one of the sailors pointed out, indicating one of the rooms opposite him.

"Ok," the ex-marine said in acknowledgement, and crept close to the door. He smashed it open and raised his rifle as the three men who had workable pistols crowded behind him to see what was happening, and maybe get a shot in.Third class decks...

Three men, the brothers Charles and Everett Rushman and a third man named Bignette was searching through closets and baggage of the pasengers when they heard the soft steps of shoes on metal. He pointed his ears and yes! Again the same sound. Rushman tapped both men on their shoulders and whispered in their ears to stand next to the doorway, with machetes ready. Once one of those, how many were coming at them wasn't known, stepped in they'd slam the door shut, hopefully breaking someone's arm. Rushman dragged a cabintruck to block the door, to give the Everett on the right side more space to kick the door shut. Too late, Bignette was standing in front of the doorway when the Preatonian smashed the door wide open, without seeing the Rushman brothers. Bignette laid on the ground, dead.

Charles was standing on the left and he saw the barrel of the gun, the marksman had to be in the range of his machete. He was already holding it in his right hand, now he grabbed it so the blade was pointing towards his elbow. In one swift movement he turned around, saw the Preatonians standing and driving the machete in the Preatonian's body, he pulled it out and a stream of blood followed while he took cover on the left side of the door. Everett gave the door a firm kick and it slammed shut, this all happened what seemed to be in the blink of an eye.The old sailor lurged forwards and tripped on the cabin-chest, falling head first into the room. He lay on the floor, coughing and spluttering, tangled in his rifle. The three men with pistols looked aghast for a few seconds, before their expression turned to fear. They backed away, and shot several times in through the doorway.Everett saw the man lying on the cold floor and he did not hesitate for a moment, he took out his dagger from his leather sheath, and threw the dagger with all his strength into the neck of the man. He wasn't dead; spastic movements and cries of pain showed Everett and Charles death wasn't far away. Then the other Preatonians began firing into the cabin, bullets bouncing off the metal walls, Charles and Everett both took cover behind suitcases next to the doorway... Out bullets? Everett took another dagger from his sheath and he knew he had one chance of hitting. Then he saw the assault rifle lying on the ground, only a feet away from him. With his feet he slowly tugged the weapon to him. The gun was ready to fire, without looking around he sort of aimed the gun into the corridor and pulled the trigger until it ran out of bullets.One of the men was hit eight times in the leg by the automatic rifle, falling sideways to lie in the middle of the corridor writhing in agony. His pistol slid several meters to lie on the metal floor several meters away. One of the knife-wielding Praetonians picked it up and ran back a little, as did the others, raising their weapons to the doorway.

"Come out now!" One shouted, "and we won't hurt you.""NEVER!" Both screamed it as loud as they could, but Everett and Charles knew the situation was pretty hopeless. But not hopeless enough to surrender. Never surrender. Charles saw the body of Bignette lying on the floor, still in the same awkward position it died. He searched the body... And hell. A revolver! Unfortunately, only loaded with two bullets. Better than nothing and standing in the corridor fully exposed is a quick path to death. The staircase wasn't far from their room, if they could take out two of them, then could make a bold attempt to get away.

Charles threw baggage into the corridor, clothes, wood and bed sheets on one big pile where the man was lying who was shot in his leg. Everything was thrown on him, and he couldn't get away since Charles threw another dagger in his right arm, crippling him completely. Everett searched the kitchen and bathroom for things that can burn well. Medical alcohol to disinfect, excellent! He threw the content of the bottle on the pile of clothes and other stuff, when he ignited a signal rocket flare, which he threw on the alcohol-soaked pile. The dense flames took over, and the heavy greasy smoke took away the sight from the Praetonian men. Charles and Everett jumped out from the cabin, while shooting in the direction of the Preatonians. Running as fast as they could, they made their way to the stairs while under fire by the Preatonian sailors. Since Preatonia asked me to end this quickly, I had a man named Everetson to gun those boys down. If he didn't ask me, you know my two men got away homefree without a scratch. Small-scale tactics people. This small RP itself is realistic and shows how important strategies are.

Make your RP's more interesting. Use your brains, read the map, find weaknesses and exploit them to your advantage. Technology itself doesn't mean you win, men with brains win battles. An ill-equipped army using tactics and command vs the best army in the world shooting brainless around in the wild doesn't mean the best army wins. Keep basic things in mind and don't think you will instantly lose when a big baddy knocks at your door with lots of weapons. You made your nation, you know the lay of the land. Use that to your advantage, use weapons left behind by dead soldiers. Don't cry godmod if things fail. Even if your nation does get occupied (a very remarkable feat) then you can start a relentless guerrilla war, terrorism. Use the international media to gather attention and support for your cause. Use the knowledge you have and use it against your oponent and you will yield results.

REFERENCE
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=398617 The Macabees wrote this, a guide how to defeat en enemy with superior numbers. Something worth and useful to read!

Comments, questions? Post them! Help me improving this guide for the sake of good wars.

Thanks goes to Iuthia and The Macabees for giving some good input

While I agree with some of the points you have made, I feel that you are being a little harsh in regards to how people should go about Jungle tactics... there is nothing wrong with being equipped with assault weapons such as an AK47, you just have to be smart using it. Like you said, equipment alone will not win out in the end of the day... however it does affect the amount of firepower you can bring to bare and gives you more options. The biggest factor in a hostile environment like the jungle is probably training, being resourceful in such an situation is key... knowing how to use what you have and how to cover yourself.

You state that firearms, melee weapons, explosives are not good weapons to use in scenario you gave... but assuming you're already hidden and outnumbered you need every edge you can get. Explosives such as grenades are perfect for traps, but they are also useful for throwing at someone in cover... these won't give away your exact position though they may alert more of the enemy. However the assumption is that if you have the training you will not be fighting a direct fight, you will either be attempting to escape in which case you will not be wanting to use any weapons, or you will be harrassing the enemy, in which case you make an attack and then retreat into the dense jungle again. When using a gun most people are taught in such environments to change their position after firing and it's useful to have the firepower handy incase you get in a tight spot, melee weapons are excellent for silent kills, assuming you know how to use them and how to hide...

The weapons you gave as good weapons are pretty damn useful in those scenarios... though personally I feel that the throwing weapons require close proximity to be truely effective, like melee weapons you have to be good at hiding your position and using the weapon. All of these weapons are good because of their effective silence, whats they could be made and are easy to repair... though when compared to an AK47 the limit on firepower (single bolt or arrow at a time) will limit you to harrassment as if the enemy figure out your position they will quickly overwhelm you, and again, these weapons are good if you know how to use them, again training is a huge factor in these situations.

Basically, anything can be good in a combat situation, the trick is to use what you have avialable... a gun is good in almost any combat situation, you don't even have use it but it's good to have the firepower and of course you don't depend on it alone. As an RPer it's good to RP resourcefulness in your soldiers so they don't rely on their weapons entirely, but use their wits... of course, you could down play your imagination for soldiers who aren't too bright.

Though I have to admit, anyone using a high technology weapon in a jungle is asking for maintainance problem from the environment, which is why my suggestion for a weapon in that environment are durable weapons with low maintainance requirements, in such an environment an AK47 is better then a M16 because you could damn near use it as a club and it'll still work, even though the M16 is generally a better assault rifle.

Generally, this is part of where the whole resourceful thing comes in, you should concider what tools are best for the job, remembering that the most powerful weapon isn't the best weapon in every circumstance, afterall, I certainly wouldn't have soldiers with Guass Rifles in the Jungle, they would fail very quickly.

Point taken, i'll edit it.

Great job Guff!

Prae and I are working on a Guide to Naval Combat. Perhaps this and other recent strategy posts can become a sticky in themselves.

EDIT: You might also want to suggest people who you think are good NS strategists and mention why you think they're good. If you have thread examples of their work, feel free to mention them.

Guff here's here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=398617).

Guff here's here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=398617).Will be added as a reference. And thanks Sarzonia

Another of Guff's guides to tag...

And add to the Emporium of Helpful Threads (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=366979). :)

Thanks!

You might also want to add suppresed weapons to the tactics part, but also add that a sound suppresor, while reducing much of the sound a weapon creates, can still be heard quite a ways away on a weapon like, say, an M4. However, a suppresed pistol is much quieter. Another thing: sound suppresors don't last forever. Depending on quality, usage, and rate of fire, you'll only be good for about 100 rounds on that pistol. If your using it on full auto with a rifle, it'll be toast by the time you reload.

In other words, if you want to use a suppresed rifle, do so from a good distance and with single shots.

Nice, very very nice. Anyway... I've never really had the need to use tactics in such a way- everyone i've ever fought has been numerically and technologically weaker than me, and in a way, it is my tactic to make that so.

There are three things I feel you have left out to do with strategy; I will simulate them with the following scenario.
There is a hill to the north with a village on, and some trees to the south. Your paratrooper company has dropped in to defend a mortar detachment bombing a machine gun unit inside the village. enemy riflemen surround the village and it's area.

The three following notes have to work together, not on their own. Otherwise it's failure, just efforted failure.

1.) Intelligence
Make sure you know what is happening. Get GPS to check out how many riflemen est, sharpshooters to find out where the machine gun posts actually are, their line of fire etc etc. There's no point planning an attack, then putting it into action, to find that three machine guns have that covered in a field of fire and cut your troops down.

2.) Combined Arms
If you haven't checked out the field behind the village, then how do you know what's there? This is practical because if your pararooper unit is close combat orientated with compact weapons and submachine guns, to clear the village, then when they have to advance across the field they may be hit by sniper fire or rifle fire. Again, check out all around the area to know what your soldiers can utilise and how. Again, make sure all branches, as such, work together. The mortars are pointless if they aren't hitting where you need.

3.) Backup Plans
If you split your force and flank the village, then what if the enemy moves some of their machine guns to counter one side and a chunk of their force to the other? Have a backup plan, for example the mortars shell the ground so the enemy cant' take up new positions - if the enemy bring in reinforcements, have groups ready to move to negate that threat. Again, you must work with combined arms and intelligence to know these things and counter them.

This post has taken about 15-20 minutes. For soldiers in the field it would take less than a minute.

I hope this has been helpful, and that guff will include some of it in his guide.
Thanks
~KTHXBAIOMGHOGGEH

Huge tag for future reference.

I'll add some stuff.

1) Supplies

No, Im not going to rant at you for ages about logistics and how you should have a 6 man army with 2309571 gazillion support staff which need to be intracately planned out like you were some kind of logistics company expert before I consider you a good war RPer, but I will look at logistics on a basic level. In fact, the most basic level. Where are your supplied coming from? We can easily assume that those supplies there are distributed adequately etc, but where are they actually coming from, and can you get enough in on time. This is especially true of invasions. If they're coming in by sea, do you have a port? Yes, I know they used a pre-made port at Normandy, but there was a reason that they made ports targets in the "Battle for Normandy". Indeed, the invasion force nearly ran out of food.

Simply put, if you lose naval superiority during an amphibious landing, the invasion will starve and run out of ammunition. Also remember that the bigger the landing, the harder it is to supply. Real Life nations dont decide not to land multi million man armies during amphib invasions to have a "fun RP" but because they actually can't.

I actually am going to protest most of the weapons in blue... I don't deny that they are lethal - they are, extremely. But only in certain circomstances, and only with a lot of training. And they aren't silent either. Anyone hit by a crossbow is going to be making an awful lot of noise... you'd be better off taking a shot with a scoped rifle. It's notoriously difficult to tell the direction of a single shot, and if your snipers are sure to relocate after every shot, they'll be extremely difficult to find.

That deals with crossbows. I really dislike throwing weapons because they have a very limited range, are terribly innacurate, and it's hard to carry a lot of them. In the hands of an expert, they are wonderful, but not many people have the time to practise for hours each day.

Blowguns are completely useless unless poisoned, and cannot penetrate body armor or thick clothing.

Melee weapons are excelent, but only if you get the drop on the other fellow, and only if you can get close. The colt .45 pistol was actually invented because it was the only sure way to drop charging Filipino insurgants during the American occupation... smaller bullets didn't have enough stopping power. That being said, if you do decide to bring a knife to a gun-fight, you had better be suicidal or have the advantage of surprise. The Filipinos tended to expire shortly after their American victims. On the other hand, a knife or garrot is really the only way to silently drop a sentry.

I also disagree with your disaproval of explosives. Explosives are your friend. Landmines, booby-traps, cratering charges, claymores... all of these make life absolutely miserable for invaders.

Finally, I also aprove of guns. In almost any situation, guns are the optimum weapon. Ask yourselves why the Vietnamese relied so heavily on AK-47s? The Iraqis? The Afghans? The Boers were so troublesome because they were all crack shots. Submachineguns and assault rifles are perfect for jungles, where ranges are short, cover is plentiful, but it's hard to move fast.

Also, while I agree that the ability to forage is useful... remember that you need toi feed an army, not a few guys. Every hour you spend hunting for food is an hour you aren't marching, and your army will have to be extremey spread out in order to find enough game. You won't have any staying power either, armies are notorious for stripping the countryside of food quickly.

Just a quick note here. Perhaps it was mentioned. When in a situation demanding the deployment of troops/armor, etc., it would help to know if the nation being attacked/defended has a coastline, mountains,rivers, etc. Too often in the past I've sent troops in for a coastal landing, only to find out several posts later that the nation was land-locked.
Also, there has to be some sort of understanding when FT can be combined with MT. Many nations have developed FT abilities over time, and some of these FT developements can be used, if only in a passive way, i.e., beaming troops/armaments from here to there, AI units, etc...
Thanks for the excellent post, Guff.

And you 'aint too shabby yourself, Hogboy....

Yeah I agree, maps are VITAL for a good war RP.

I actually am going to protest most of the weapons in blue... I don't deny that they are lethal - they are, extremely. But only in certain circomstances, and only with a lot of training. And they aren't silent either. Anyone hit by a crossbow is going to be making an awful lot of noise... you'd be better off taking a shot with a scoped rifle. It's notoriously difficult to tell the direction of a single shot, and if your snipers are sure to relocate after every shot, they'll be extremely difficult to find.

That deals with crossbows. I really dislike throwing weapons because they have a very limited range, are terribly innacurate, and it's hard to carry a lot of them. In the hands of an expert, they are wonderful, but not many people have the time to practise for hours each day.

Blowguns are completely useless unless poisoned, and cannot penetrate body armor or thick clothing.

Melee weapons are excelent, but only if you get the drop on the other fellow, and only if you can get close. The colt .45 pistol was actually invented because it was the only sure way to drop charging Filipino insurgants during the American occupation... smaller bullets didn't have enough stopping power. That being said, if you do decide to bring a knife to a gun-fight, you had better be suicidal or have the advantage of surprise. The Filipinos tended to expire shortly after their American victims. On the other hand, a knife or garrot is really the only way to silently drop a sentry.

I also disagree with your disaproval of explosives. Explosives are your friend. Landmines, booby-traps, cratering charges, claymores... all of these make life absolutely miserable for invaders.

Finally, I also aprove of guns. In almost any situation, guns are the optimum weapon. Ask yourselves why the Vietnamese relied so heavily on AK-47s? The Iraqis? The Afghans? The Boers were so troublesome because they were all crack shots. Submachineguns and assault rifles are perfect for jungles, where ranges are short, cover is plentiful, but it's hard to move fast.

Also, while I agree that the ability to forage is useful... remember that you need toi feed an army, not a few guys. Every hour you spend hunting for food is an hour you aren't marching, and your army will have to be extremey spread out in order to find enough game. You won't have any staying power either, armies are notorious for stripping the countryside of food quickly.



Sounds like you are a student of Sun Tzu.....

Very interesting...

Thank God! Someone who recognizes that strategy is important. You, sir, are a deity among apes, a glowing being lifting us all out of the primordial ooze. I salute you.

1.) Intelligence
Make sure you know what is happening. Get GPS to check out how many riflemen est, sharpshooters to find out where the machine gun posts actually are, their line of fire etc etc. There's no point planning an attack, then putting it into action, to find that three machine guns have that covered in a field of fire and cut your troops down.


That reminded me of something...

ELINT and electronic security.

It seems like every soldier in NS carries a GPS system, a headset, and a satalite uplink Ignoring for the moment the immense cost of this equipment, I guaruntee you that if you ever get in a war with me, my ELINT vehicles will be sucking up every bit of radiation you emmit, compiling it at the rear for anaysis, and co-operating to triangulate your position. The more you radiate, the more information we get, and the faster we can decypher your battle-encryption and fine tune our jammers. Not to mention what will happen if we actually get our hands on the actual hardware and software... and can you imagine the problems with communications protocols when everyone has a radio? Does every private have a channel to the CO of the company? If your entire officer corps of a battalion gets wiped out, and it does happen, does a second lieutenant know the communication protocols to contact the general? If so, what happens if that lieutenant gets captured?

One final note. Don't rely on GPS or satalite communications. They're the first things to get jammed or shot down.

I give this thread 10/10.

Hey, nice job man, definitely worth a tag! But, just out of curiosity, who's RF? I'm really only asking that because, well, that's what people usually call me.

Hey, nice job man, definitely worth a tag! But, just out of curiosity, who's RF? I'm really only asking that because, well, that's what people usually call me.Russian Forces.

Melee weapons are useful when you can take someone from behind, in real life it's easy, but in RP it's unpractical. Stick with ranged weapons, and you'll be quite safe.

In reality, sticking to ranged weapons is a good idea in RP as well. I know of a former Marine NCO who stated that in training, he and his fellow recruits were always trained to use a silenced firearm if possible when a silent kill was necessary, and that the next step down was a bow or crossbow, and that a knife was the absolute last resort.

~ Romandeos.

OoC: I see where you are coming from but you forgot to mention this guide is only important in competitive RPs, I usually RP in threads that are co-operative or at least with a bit of pre-planning, I'm not into all that competitive RP as it can (in an RP gone wrong) degrade into dick comparisons.

OoC: I see where you are coming from but you forgot to mention this guide is only important in competitive RPs, I usually RP in threads that are co-operative or at least with a bit of pre-planning, I'm not into all that competitive RP as it can (in an RP gone wrong) degrade into dick comparisons.

not at all... well, yes about the dick comparisons, but knowing what's realistic definately adds verisimilitude to the RP.

I personally think that on NS, and on the real battlefield, set piece strategies don't work, as situations change too frequently. It's all improvizations.

I personally think that on NS, and on the real battlefield, set piece strategies don't work, as situations change too frequently. It's all improvizations.

Indeed, and anybody who does not know that has no hope of winning a war.

Nice post there. Allow me to make some comments:

1. What Doomingsland pointed out was an excellent point regarding suppressors. While it does reduce the obvious "bang" and the muzzle flash, there's still two reason why armies doesn't make millions of suppressors: the cost to make it in the first place, and maintenance. A supressor isn't like a gun barrel ofan AK or a small part of a M16, since it would have to be carefully crafted and made to actually /achieve/ its function effectively. Thus, you'll need some specialized facilities/tools/people to make it, and that you shouldn't expect it to last too long. As he also pointed out, better quality = longer service life. Don't expect your industry to somehow produce a million sound supressors for your M16s and still expect each of your soldier to make "silent kills" one thousand times.

As well, in general, though the "blue weapons" can be interesting, they are still woefully ineffective. Like VA alraedy pointed out, these weapons are still simply unnecessary when you /already have/ the same capabilities with a /better/ weapon (for example, a mass-distributed version of a PSG-1 with a suppressor, or improvised booby traps involving explosives and/or incendiaries).

In the same time, it still doesn't mean that you shouldn't use any gun or explosives. A gun can go from things like a Liberator pistol or even an old shotgun, to something high quality such as a M4, though you do have to take into account that the better the gun is in terms of performance, the harder it would be made, distributed, and maintained. With explosives, depends on what type and how much, while something like a C4 and Semtex are still good for improvised explosive devises, you could still have something much simpler such as a bunch of fragmentation grenades tied to a booby trap mechanism. For melee weapons, they are still pretty good weapons, though it depends on how you classify melee weapons. If your people are smart enough, you could use anything from a heavy stone to a knife.

2. ELINT, communication and radio signals: While coordination are still extremely imporant in both offensives and defensives, both faraway and close-in enemy units, with the right equipment, can hear what you are talking on the radio and locate you. That's how the Russians targeted a hideout of a Chechen rebel leaders with a ballistic missile some years ago: the Chechen rebel leader was using a Motorola phone at that time, and they located and targeted them easily, homing on his radio signals. Especially if you are outnumbered, stuck with old tech, and is on the defensive, try radio silence as much as possible. There's nothing more devastating than having your enemy immediately locate your radio signals as you are informing others to attack (Surprisingly, in my experience with walkie-talkies a while ago, I had gotten across others talking on the same frequencies I had, and even heard their conversations, with my own, two times)

As well, bugles and drums, among other things, can still be useful. While they are noisy for obvious reasons and would alert closely positioned enemies, at longer distances they can't do anything against this form of communication. Playing a basic brass instrument such as a bugle or a percussion such as drums isn't too hard either (I'm a trumpet player myself) and can be learned somewhat easily for some (while ahrder for others), which is the reason why I issue a mix of bugles and and standard radios to my militia units. For these instruments, you don't have to play them to the level of a musician, but they are still very useful in terms of "stealthy" communication.

Thanks for the excellent additions!

Since everyone has posted their own opinions and strategy bits and bobs, I would like to bring up a little grievances with most NS players:

When most people RP a war what happens?

The person who declared war, gets attacked by eighty million of the other nations friends in an Offensive war.

I would like to remind the general population of NS that the objective shouldn't be to blow the guy or girl to hell because they declared war on your friend but to force them to back down by defending your friend.

Please don't launch an Offensive war unless you really need to IC, because it so annoying when you want a decent RP and people just go and invade you for no reason.

It's also much for effective to sit and defend someone than go and attack someone, since you can respond and reaction with maximal force. You can get your aims and objectives without massive offensive wars for little IC reason.

I've also noticed there are five main NS strategies used by nations:

1) Bomb into ground from the air, massive use of bombers etc. No attempt to use missiles, bombers, fighters etc in unison. Let alone the Navy's guns. Yes, lets do it but always remember the enemy has jets too and little things called Anti-Aircraft weapons and usually lots of them.

2) Airborne Invasion, often used and the source of many problems in RP terms since a lot of people seem to think this means the enemy is going to be shocked. Not likely...

3) Operation Overlord, style invasion but with not attempt at diversion or subterfuge. This is another RP favourite... lets land craft at X point and invade... wahoo... only problem with this plan is the enemy.

4) Special Forces drop, people somehow think Special Forces when dropped A) aren't going to be noticed B) are semi-invunerable. I am always suprised when 20 men can escape someones defences with strange abilities.

5) Blockade and Embargo, probably the most common way of stopping things in theory, but often sufficent forces are not really committed nor made available til someone actually attempts to do something about it.

I would ask you use combined arms a lot more and please be more imaginative. Any old fool can do what I described above... here's a thought for all you out there perhaps you can ultilise all them together in a massive invasion (when it is in IC) rather than 'I am using X tech and Y numbers to blow you to kingdom come', Surrender now or face meh wrath etc.

Also, the problem comes in here about IC use of OOC info. if you don't know about it IC you can't RP as such, BUT please when RPing your IC movements try and make some attempt at covering them up. Deception is one of the keys to Modern Warfare.

Please make an effort in war, keep timelines reasonably realistic (like somehow not having millions of troops mobilised in a week) and generally don't be boring and straightforward... having interesting ideas and use them.

Anyway; /strategy rant.

Hey, nice job man, definitely worth a tag! But, just out of curiosity, who's RF? I'm really only asking that because, well, that's what people usually call me.


Ah.. and so breeds the new generation of NS roleplayers.

Ah.. and so breeds the new generation of NS roleplayers.

*sits in rocking chair*

yep, there all growing up and going off to destroy people

*whipes tear from eye*

not at all... well, yes about the dick comparisons, but knowing what's realistic definately adds verisimilitude to the RP.

OoC: But my nation is far from realistic, well, at least not realistic for the time it's set in, perhaps in about 150-300 years, a 1984 nation will will be realistic. And strategy doesn't necessarily add authenticity, as one can achieve the same real, grainy quality of realism through human emotions such as fear, hate and love on the battlefield. Strategy has a place in competitive RP's and while it may have a place in planned RP's, it is very drummed down as planned RP's are often of the character kind and in character RP's, the character takes precedence over stratagems.

I would like to mention something, I have not been playing this particular game for long but I have noticed that many people, especially in the storfronts seem to put a lot of emphasis on stealth aircraft. However I was reading an article a couple of years ago on passive RADAR arrays, similar to the large radio telescope arrays, but smaller, easier to hide, and supposed to be excellent at detecting "stealth" craft because of the large area for signal reception, especially when hooked to a powerful enough computer for signal processing. These arrays would be made up of small receptors, spread over large areas, and being passive would not attract the anti-RADAR missles used on the active towers. Also these array beause of the size and availabilty of consumer electronics, would be much cheaper for the coverage than an equivilant active RADAR system, they would of course be more effective if used in conjuction with an active system.

So if I rambled, just some thoughts on the issue from some older information, I thought it fit here as a discussion of elements of strategy.

Stealth isnt stealth anymore. There are dozens of anti-stealth things around for a good while.

The whole stealth vs. counter-stealth technology race is one gigantic chess match by engineers who keep trying to find ways to make their behemoths more difficult to detect followed by those technicians who look for ways to beat the stealthy methods and detect them.

If you invent the better mousetrap, the better mouse will eventually come along.

OoC: But my nation is far from realistic, well, at least not realistic for the time it's set in, perhaps in about 150-300 years, a 1984 nation will will be realistic. And strategy doesn't necessarily add authenticity, as one can achieve the same real, grainy quality of realism through human emotions such as fear, hate and love on the battlefield. Strategy has a place in competitive RP's and while it may have a place in planned RP's, it is very drummed down as planned RP's are often of the character kind and in character RP's, the character takes precedence over stratagems.

You have a point there. On the other hand, I find I lose my suspension of disbelief when characters in novels (or RPs) come up with schemes that any third rate army would be ready for. "Lets charge straight at them and destroy them with our tanks!" "Oh no, we're being charged with tanks, run away!" makes me twitch when the responce should be "Your tanks run into dragons teeth. AT fire begins from conceiled guns. Infantry poip up from foxholes and loose off ATGMs. FASCAM begins dropping behind you, preventing retreat and re-enforcement." I mean... please. And this CAN be mixed with gritty personal stories... I usually focus on the commander of the forces involved in the battle, and a couple of intermediary officers and grunts from different services, and tell the battle as they see it.

[OOC: VA put this in another thread, but I'll just make it clear here... I'm not a proponent of having every available resource in your country just because it's technically legal to role play as if... indeed, I'm insufficient in iron ore, which I import in very large quantities, as well as diamonds (for lasers and computer hardware), and my agriculture is going down the drain, although I'm important vast quantities of foodstuff and I'm soon to come out with a few reforms to my agricultural industry - doesn't have much to do with the tread, but just for a heads up. There's also a bunch of other things I don't have much of.]

The whole stealth vs. counter-stealth technology race is one gigantic chess match by engineers who keep trying to find ways to make their behemoths more difficult to detect followed by those technicians who look for ways to beat the stealthy methods and detect them.

If you invent the better mousetrap, the better mouse will eventually come along.

The problem I see with this is that counter-stealth to current technology is not too difficult to design...use current arrays and make them larger and with larger computers. However, designing valid stealth which counter acts this is considerably harder, and in fact, should you come out with a valid method get an immediate patent on it because you're going to be receiving calls from the government!

Sir, I would disagree with some of your examples. Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, are not proof of the fighting ability of guerrila forces. Afghanistan especially demonstrates technology's massive advantage, as about 100 special forces with air support effectively won the war.

Sir, I would disagree with some of your examples. Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, are not proof of the fighting ability of guerrila forces. Afghanistan especially demonstrates technology's massive advantage, as about 100 special forces with air support effectively won the war.

Not true. The 'free Afghans' won the war. The conflict in Afghanistan couldn't have been completed so effectively without the United States using the Northern Forces as their grunts.

This is especially apparent by the debacle of Operation Anaconda, which although it was ultimately successful, suffered several mistakes, costing the lives of U.S. Airborne and Marines.

Very true. It hias been proven time and time again that stratigic, and even tactical bombing can not alone with a war. Tanks can roll over ground, ships can blockade it, artillery can pound it, and aircraft are basically juist long range artillery... you need men and women with guns to actually walk up to land and TAKE it. to CONTROL it. 100 SF troops can make life miserable for the enemy, and can even instegate a regieme change, but only if people are already willing to fight.

DO NOT USE:
Firearms
Melee weapons
ExplosivesUSE THESE:
Crossbows or bow and arrow
Blowguns
Javelins
Throwing knives
Throwing starsI

Have you ever heard of one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor)?

tag for future use

Very true. It hias been proven time and time again that stratigic, and even tactical bombing can not alone with a war. Tanks can roll over ground, ships can blockade it, artillery can pound it, and aircraft are basically juist long range artillery... you need men and women with guns to actually walk up to land and TAKE it. to CONTROL it. 100 SF troops can make life miserable for the enemy, and can even instegate a regieme change, but only if people are already willing to fight.

Hehe, the first thing that comes to mind was the instance in which the CIA agent was trying to pry intelligence from a Taliban officer, perhaps doubling for Al-Queda as well, and the CIA Agent ended up dead with US Special Forces being hurried to the area to rescue the others.

Wow I actually updated this thing!