NationStates Jolt Archive

With cloaking devices all over the place, and my own designs apparantly primitive compared with the rest, I began researching ways in which one could design a cloaking device. The first idea I came up with was a simple one: active lighting systems display what's behind them, combined with conventional stealth materials and design (RAM material, composites, etc.)

But that design was labeled primitive in an RP, so I decided I would research another way. If there was another way, that is. It turns out there was another way: by creating a large gravity well, one could bend light and cause no light to be reflected from their starship or anything else. That prompted an investigation into how much gravity was required. It turns out that you need a singularity (a.k.a. black hole) to generate enough gravity to bend light enough to cloak a ship. After finding no other way of cloaking, I have decided to ask everyone how they either overcome the neccesary gravity load, or what other method they use.

ooc: I don't believe 'cloaking devices' are much more than plot-convinient shorthand to refer to a hideously complex system of information warfare. Further I don't think being 'invisible' when you're a spaceship is all that great, since there's no way to hide every single signature a spaceship will make - not from future tech sensors, and quite probably not from even modern tech at close enough ranges...

Well, IMO you could cloak concievably if you were a class III civilization with the technical know-how... but you'd need to realize that if you're masking everything that leaves your ship, you're also keeping stuff from going towards your ship. You'd be running blind (can't see light if it's absorbed by the cloaking field) and you can't fire any weapons to speak of without being uncloaked (Lasers are light, they'd get absorbed. You might be able to use missiles/MACs though...)

Being invisible does have its advantages, especially if the enemy vessels have windows. One possible advantage is that laser guided weaponry won't be able to pick you up. But yes, you are correct, they aren't good for too much besides that as you will always be leaking some type of emission. I am merely interested in seeing how people accomplish their type of stealth, so that I could implement it and/or countermeasures. At the moment it appears all I need is a powerful radar/similar and a method of detecting a singularity.

Well, IMO you could cloak concievably if you were a class III civilization with the technical know-how... The technical know-how is what I am discussing in this thread. So far I have determined at least one method of cloaking, and another for possible consideration if it has the kinks worked out. I am also trying to discover other possible ways of cloaking.

Eh... The Japanese (RL, as we speak) have some fiber-optic stuff, but that still leaves you translucent, guzzles power, and doesn't mask anything other than light. You could use RAM (radar absorbent material), an advanced version of the Japanese toy, and run dark (no communications and engines deactivated)... but you'd let off a gravitational distortion that is detectable by someone advanced enough though...

But if you're class III, all you have to do is overpower them with a LOT of ships, there's no need to get too fancy very often.

Against IE, there is almost nothing you can do for stealth besides use a massive grav field, as he has advanced gravatic sensors. I myself don't use cloaking devices, so, you know, meh.

There are a wide varriety of methods; a grav cloak, for example, can use high-gradiant gravitic effectors to bypass the need for a singularity, and they'd double as a weapon, but you'd be lighting yourself up to gravitational sensors.

There are, however, too many to really outline; from ECM to dipping into hyperspace. But they usually come in either composite(ie ECM+holographics+etc) or unified (single device cvering multipule aspects) forms, and 'generic' cloaks seem somewhat common.

I have a few of my own, but they're not widely used and don't scale up well; other than that, ultra-low emmission operating modes, reactionless drives, extreamly advanced ECM(including holographics), and gravitic effectors hide the only class designed with stealth in mind that my military has.

I am aware of the Japanese "cloaking" device, and the method which you describe is what I describe in my first post. I am looking for different psyics (sp?) that allow me to avoid detection.

The second method I stated allows you to remain invisible, but it requires you have the ability to create [and survive] a black hole. Perhaps the ship can create a "white hole" around itself and maybe they cancel each other out. Maybe.

Another thought: perhaps a ship can utilize a wormhole, slip in, and leave open a tiny wormhole so that maybe a small, stealthy, passive scanner can transmit information to the ship, even when it is light years away. These small wormholes are naturally occuring in vacuums (is it vacuums?) in incredibly small sizes. All the device must do is create a small vacuum (maybe contained inside the device). Maybe that will work. Thoughts?

OOC: I honestly have very little knowledge of this subject...but I do watch a lot of Star Trek and James Bond, so hopefully that qualifies me...

Anyway, in the last Bond movie he had a car that used cameras to record the scenery around the car and then use said cameras to show this scenery on the other side of the car, preseumably using holograms or somesuch.

Well, could a ship do this sort of thing but in a much more advanced way? Record the space and objects around it using real-time recording or whatever they have in FT, and then show this on the other sides of the ship, making it invisible. This technology could then be combined with an FT version of the stealth technology currently used by Stealth Bombers/Fighters these days to make sure the ships don't have their emissions, transmissions, whatever they are called in FT.

Just my thought

OOC: Even in Star Trek, I don't think the Romulan or Klingon cloaking devices were completely perfect as it pertained to dealing with Federation starships. From a visual standpoint, the prototype Bird of Prey that fired while cloaked was momentarily visible when it fired its torpedoes at the Enterprise and the Excelsior. We also remember that a modified torpedo was used as sort of a "heat-seeking missile" that honed in on the Bird of Prey. Once it was hit, it was a sitting duck.

I'd have to get my hands on a Star Trek technical manual to see if there was a way they explained the workings of those cloaking devices. Other than that, you may still have to allow for some kind of flaws or someone might call it a Godmode. But I say that bearing in mind that I'm modern/near future.

Another thought: perhaps a ship can utilize a wormhole, slip in, and leave open a tiny wormhole so that maybe a small, stealthy, passive scanner can transmit information to the ship, even when it is light years away. These small wormholes are naturally occuring in vacuums (is it vacuums?) in incredibly small sizes. All the device must do is create a small vacuum (maybe contained inside the device). Maybe that will work. Thoughts?

So basicly hide in a "worm"space pocket with only a tiny opening at one end, and a stealthed sensor in front of it, concealing what's behind the sensor?

Or is that just remote observation via wormhole?

OOC: Even in Star Trek, I don't think the Romulan or Klingon cloaking devices were completely perfect as it pertained to dealing with Federation starships. From a visual standpoint, the prototype Bird of Prey that fired while cloaked was momentarily visible when it fired its torpedoes at the Enterprise and the Excelsior. We also remember that a modified torpedo was used as sort of a "heat-seeking missile" that honed in on the Bird of Prey. Once it was hit, it was a sitting duck.

I'd have to get my hands on a Star Trek technical manual to see if there was a way they explained the workings of those cloaking devices. Other than that, you may still have to allow for some kind of flaws or someone might call it a Godmode. But I say that bearing in mind that I'm modern/near future.

OOC: That's cause Star Trek sucks. :P

That has, Skinny87, again, been proposed in my first post, and again by No endorse. And it you watched Star Trek, you'd know that the 2nd method I have examined--kinks and all--is what the Romulans developed.

OOC: Yes, thats true, I forgot that *Hangs head in shame for not being a true Trekkie anymore*

Plus I do remember that Cloaking Devices were fragile things at the best of times and could be easily knocked out - In fact in DS9 it was usually the first thing to go out on the Defiant :p

Why would you need a futuristic cloaking device in space? Space is really big, all you would need to do is turn off the engines and cool down the hull. With no emissions or radiated heat and light, you would be invisible, and with no resistances you would continue to drift quite nicely.

Submarines have a hard time finding each other when running silent, in space you could be hundreds of miles away from your target.

So basicly hide in a "worm"space pocket with only a tiny opening at one end, and a stealthed sensor in front of it, concealing what's behind the sensor?

Or is that just remote observation via wormhole?

It could be both. You use a worm hole and park a ship at one end, and the sensing device at the other. To avoid detection and still allow realtime communications, you leave only a microscopic (not really even that big) worm hole open. If you decide to "decloak" you simply open the hole and go through. You may even be able to shoot through it.

But if you wanted to listen, you just have the other end of the hole near another listening device. No ship neccesary. Of course, you still must get the device somewhere, but if you have plenty of time to kill you can simply use a rocket. No emmisions from the engines (you can just drift in, there is not enough matter, I think, to have friction and slow you down).

Crimmond cloaking devices are actually the opposite of every cloaking device out there.

I looked at this ship (http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/r/tr512/fgi_FOTO_usn_SSSS.295.jpg) and something just clicked.

Instead of being a regular ship that gets made invisable, it's an invisable ship that's made as visable as everything around it. Just as the Sea Shadow was a hole on radar, so are my cloak equipped ships to scanners. All the cloaking grid does is emit what is on teh exact opposite side of teh ship. It's also painted black, so it can avoid detection by visual sensors easier as well. Why actually turn yourship invisable when you can paint it black and get the same base effect?

And, so far, I'm the only one to use this type of system and I only employ it when the ships are in star systems, where background noise is intense, compared to the Void.

Why would you need a futuristic cloaking device in space? Space is really big, all you would need to do is turn off the engines and cool down the hull. With no emissions or radiated heat and light, you would be invisible, and with no resistances you would continue to drift quite nicely.

Submarines have a hard time finding each other when running silent, in space you could be hundreds of miles away from your target.

You could also be detected visually by a telescope in orbit, unless you hide behind something. But then you might not be able to detect them.

All the cloaking grid does is emit what is on teh exact opposite side of teh ship. Exactly what I originally proposed. It's just not sexy enough, and too easy for someone to understand. What I'm looking for is some complex psyics to overawe my opponents and cause them to yell godmodding at the same thing that powers their toaster. Or something like that.

It's also painted black, so it can avoid detection by visual sensors easier as well If there are stars, people might just notice an area that used to have stars being covered. Or what if you are in a nebula, and it isn't colored black?

I personally don't use cloaking, but I do agree that gravity based cloaking can light you up like a christmas tree. I am trying to work out the technical problems of a "cloak" that makes you more visible, but harder to hit using sensor-guided weapons. I just launch some remote vehicles that emit the same sensor image as the main craft and use that as a cloak to throw of targetting. If you launch enough it becomes a question of: "I can't attack them all, so which is real?" Also I was working on tacking holographics onto the drones and fiber-optics onto the parent to throw off visual targetting. I really don't care if I'm called primitive for it. If it works I'm happy.

Why would you need a futuristic cloaking device in space? Space is really big, all you would need to do is turn off the engines and cool down the hull. With no emissions or radiated heat and light, you would be invisible, and with no resistances you would continue to drift quite nicely.

Submarines have a hard time finding each other when running silent, in space you could be hundreds of miles away from your target.

Hundred of miles in space = point blank range for most FT folks.

You frequently have passive sensors that can pick out holes in the background radiation, and actives that can spot a non-stealthed target across a system. There are also gravitic sensors that can spot you by your ship's mass, assorted FTL sensors, and even more exotic sensors.

I am trying to work out the technical problems of a "cloak" that makes you more visible, but harder to hit using sensor-guided weapons.

We basicly have those iRL, ala ECM, countermeasures, chaff, flares, decoys, etc.

I personally don't use cloaking, but I do agree that gravity based cloaking can light you up like a christmas tree. I am trying to work out the technical problems of a "cloak" that makes you more visible, but harder to hit using sensor-guided weapons. I just launch some remote vehicles that emit the same sensor image as the main craft and use that as a cloak to throw of targetting. If you launch enough it becomes a question of: "I can't attack them all, so which is real?" Also I was working on tacking holographics onto the drones and fiber-optics onto the parent to throw off visual targetting. I really don't care if I'm called primitive for it. If it works I'm happy.

If I saw you launch the drones, I could probably decide which target is which. Maybe you could just make fake ships--large enough to appear to be warships, maybe with some detectable emissions. When you enter the system, drag them along and have them pose more attractive targets. Maybe they all appear to be heavy battleships and require more attention. To provide even greater use, have the "ships" try and ram the enemy.

If there are stars, people might just notice an area that used to have stars being covered. Or what if you are in a nebula, and it isn't colored black?That's why the ship is usually stationary or moving very quickly.

And I never, ever send them into an area with nebula. In fact, none of my ships go into nebula, unless conducting Wolf Pack hunts(fancy name for pirate hunts). Too many things can go wrong.

But other than those two drawbacks, I have not found any problem with teh design. And really, for a cloak... two small drawbacks is actually pretty damned good.

Moving very quickly is not going to help. Not moving is going to be almost perfect, if there is nothing to silouhete (sp?) you with. (planets, suns, large space craft). From at least one direction, you may still be visible. or if the enemy has a chart of the stars and/or etc., he may notice that some are covered up.

That's why the ship is usually stationary or moving very quickly.

And I never, ever send them into an area with nebula. In fact, none of my ships go into nebula, unless conducting Wolf Pack hunts(fancy name for pirate hunts). Too many things can go wrong.

But other than those two drawbacks, I have not found any problem with teh design. And really, for a cloak... two small drawbacks is actually pretty damned good.

It also provides no defence against ships with good enough mass detectors.

And you can always be silouhetted against the background radiation.

i dont think much of cloaked ships since i can detect almost all forms of cloaked (save Temporal and Dimentional or some fancy one that eludes my Partical sensors, RAD sensors or termol sensos).

See Partical sensors are simple, most cloaked ships are still solid there for when a ship moves it disrupts the particals and bang its easy to spot.
Thermol sensors go by heat, all ships produce heat in one way or another, only most people dont think of hideing this heat or just dont think of it. Even cloaked most people dont think of this, since space is rather cold even the smallest trace is easy to pick but you have to move vary fast.
RAD is just Radiation sensors used to detect forms of radiation (only used within the fallen cluster since we know alot about hte small area of space that is ours well there are sometimes fulse alarms but that life.)

Simple, tho Dim or Temp dont work within the Fallen cluster unless someone confirms it with me OOC since i have the Real Barrior that prevents un natrual Alterations to Real Space (make a rather cool FTLi aswell).

But im flexible about my stuff (even planet killers if someone wants to use on they just need to ask me and talk).

tho my idea on Cloak is more advanced version of Modarn "Stealth" nothing fancy and not 100% effective but hell its better then nothing.

The Romulan cloaking device

The Romulan cloaking device has been seen repeatedly from TOS through to the current time. It seems to be based on stealth concepts since all cloaked starships must adopt "silent running" tactics to keep their emissions from revealing their location. Although some Federation cultists claim that it functions by warping space to such an extent that light passes around the ship in the same manner as our own cloaking devices, this is obviously not true for the following reasons:

1. A woman was able to walk up and actually touch a cloaked vessel in ST4 without any ill effects, which would have been impossible if the vessel were surrounded with a massive gravitic spatial distortion.
2. The interior of a cloaked ship can be seen through an open hatch (again, in ST4). Again, if the ship were surrounded by a massive spatial distortion field, then nothing would be visible through the hatch even if it were open.
3. They can still detect EM radiation and other forms of sensor data. If the cloak is a massive spatial distortion, it will indiscriminately prevent all incoming EM radiation (regardless of frequency) from striking the vessel. If it doesn't strike the vessel, the vessel's sensors will never see it and the ship will be blind. However, they can still see when cloaked, so the cloak obviously allows visible light in (and probably, everything else as well). This strongly suggests that the Romulan cloaking effect is based on a form of simulated transparency rather than a massive gravitic field.
4. The ship is unshielded when its cloak is active. This means that energy weapons and torpedoes will strike the vessel unabated. If the cloak employed a massive spatial distortion, it would deflect weapons away as effectively as any shield.

In conclusion, the only important aspect of Romulan cloaks is that cloaked vessels are highly vulnerable to energy and matter-based weapons. As long as they remain cloaked one can still detect them with CGT sensors, but they are bereft of shields and weapons so they can be easily destroyed.

The Romulan cloaking device

The Romulan cloaking device has been seen repeatedly from TOS through to the current time. It seems to be based on stealth concepts since all cloaked starships must adopt "silent running" tactics to keep their emissions from revealing their location. Although some Federation cultists claim that it functions by warping space to such an extent that light passes around the ship in the same manner as our own cloaking devices, this is obviously not true for the following reasons:

1. A woman was able to walk up and actually touch a cloaked vessel in ST4 without any ill effects, which would have been impossible if the vessel were surrounded with a massive gravitic spatial distortion.
2. The interior of a cloaked ship can be seen through an open hatch (again, in ST4). Again, if the ship were surrounded by a massive spatial distortion field, then nothing would be visible through the hatch even if it were open.
3. They can still detect EM radiation and other forms of sensor data. If the cloak is a massive spatial distortion, it will indiscriminately prevent all incoming EM radiation (regardless of frequency) from striking the vessel. If it doesn't strike the vessel, the vessel's sensors will never see it and the ship will be blind. However, they can still see when cloaked, so the cloak obviously allows visible light in (and probably, everything else as well). This strongly suggests that the Romulan cloaking effect is based on a form of simulated transparency rather than a massive gravitic field.
4. The ship is unshielded when its cloak is active. This means that energy weapons and torpedoes will strike the vessel unabated. If the cloak employed a massive spatial distortion, it would deflect weapons away as effectively as any shield.

In conclusion, the only important aspect of Romulan cloaks is that cloaked vessels are highly vulnerable to energy and matter-based weapons. As long as they remain cloaked one can still detect them with CGT sensors, but they are bereft of shields and weapons so they can be easily destroyed.


So, this is what I think... Cloaking technology requires several things to work.

1) Emission absorbing materials and devices.

2) Holographic generators close to the hull to project an image of transparency.

3) Running silent; ie powered down weapons, shields, running on passive not active sensors, reduced engine power to minimum levels.

4) Being far enough from scanning ships and constantly moving or dodging into sensor blocking fields.

If I saw you launch the drones, I could probably decide which target is which. Maybe you could just make fake ships--large enough to appear to be warships, maybe with some detectable emissions. When you enter the system, drag them along and have them pose more attractive targets. Maybe they all appear to be heavy battleships and require more attention. To provide even greater use, have the "ships" try and ram the enemy.
They are meant to be fired off and then all the "ships" jumble in a preprogrammed or, a manual pattern to desguise the launch ship, yes however you would be able to figure out which is real if you saw the launch and kept an eye on the launch ship. I'm working on that, maybe if I launch them from the optically cloaked ship and after launch decloak that would work. Probably not though.
I do like the ramming idea, if I use the small ROVs then they could carry a warhead and after a set amount of time kamikaze an enemy vessel.
BRILLIANT!!!
Thank you though, in all seriousness.

(bump)

We use a system that reduces the image of the ship, in all wavelengths, to that of one that appears as very very small anomolies. We also have the ship, go dark, meaning the gravity generators reverse so that the ship gives of absolutly no gravitatonal signature. But in this process we also lose contact with our cloaked ships, leading us to build subspace coms for the large cloaking ships, and ping coms for small cloak vessels and fighter.

OOC: Even in Star Trek, I don't think the Romulan or Klingon cloaking devices were completely perfect as it pertained to dealing with Federation starships. From a visual standpoint, the prototype Bird of Prey that fired while cloaked was momentarily visible when it fired its torpedoes at the Enterprise and the Excelsior. We also remember that a modified torpedo was used as sort of a "heat-seeking missile" that honed in on the Bird of Prey. Once it was hit, it was a sitting duck.

I'd have to get my hands on a Star Trek technical manual to see if there was a way they explained the workings of those cloaking devices. Other than that, you may still have to allow for some kind of flaws or someone might call it a Godmode. But I say that bearing in mind that I'm modern/near future.

(OOC: The Klingon Cloak that was supposed to be "Perfect" (It allowed a ship to fire even while cloaked.) The crew modified a torpedoe to hone in not on heat, but the faint ion trail that is released by the ships impulse engines. The Enterprise just happened to have that kind of sensor gear (The kind that could detect fainst ion trails.) due to their previous immediate mission of studying "Gaseous Anomalies".)

(bump)

It also provides no defence against ships with good enough mass detectors.

And you can always be silouhetted against the background radiation.
True and false.

The mass of the ship isn't hidden. But no cloak hides the mass of the ship. The mass is allways there.

The device projects ALL background noise. That's the entire point of having it.

I'm not saying it's going to make my untouchable, but it's not supposed to.

And about moving and staying still, no ship's crew is going to be that obsessed with the stars to be looking for some winking out and reappearing. Maybe an advanced AI, but they have better things to do. And why wouldn't moving fast help? It makes it so no one area is missing stars, not that anyone would notice.

Besides, that's the most asanine way to find the ship. The search should be conduted on the basis that the loak cannot reproduce all background noise accurately. So things like pulsars could be completely missed by it. Or even the exotic radiation from nebulae.

star trek cloaking devices = invisibile to all radar, thermal, visual scanners, can't raise shields or fire weapons or risk instant detection
only thing that is detectable is gravity, and tachyons or something

I use a different approach, interfering with the classification stage of the process, it isn't enough to merely detect something, you must decide how to respond to it. to put it simply, the idea is "I see it, but I don't beleive it."
even AI is succeptable to this concept.

In the Steve White and David Weber books, they hide the ships by using some type of energy field around the ship to direct most of the emissions of a ship along a certain bearing. The emissions are very hard to detect. They then use active ECM to mimic the background radiation.

In the Steve White and David Weber books, they hide the ships by using some type of energy field around the ship to direct most of the emissions of a ship along a certain bearing. The emissions are very hard to detect. They then use active ECM to mimic the background radiation.To quote from a while ago, on irc...

<Kopinski|Ctan> Thealas is now claiming 'cloaking fields?'
<Rezo> Cool, since 'fields' can always be detected...
<Scolopendra> "Sir! Cloaking field detected!"Personally, YES. I would always detect cloaking based on creating even more emissions by doing the incredibly stupid 'cloaking field' approach whose fallacity should be blatantly obvious to a twelve year old.

PS: Visual cloaking in space, with its distances of tens of thousands of kilometers (Only counting orbits) is kinda pointless, no? You can use bright, pink spaceships, and you will still be nothing but a tiny dot, barely visible.

Come to think of it, I am using bright, pink spaceships...

Seeing as all of this is entirely impossible, it seems pointless to try and work out the technobabble. Just state in OOC that you have a cloaking device, state its disadvantages so that it isn't a godmode, and leave it at that. RPs are stories, and few stories beyond Star Trek are made up entirely out of technobabble statistics -- why? BECAUSE IT'S NOT INTERESTING AND DOESN'T FURTHER THE STORY IN THE SLIGHTEST!
As with all things here, if it furthers the plot to detect the cloaked ship, detect it. If it doesn't, don't detect it. Doesn't matter how it works as you're not actually building a real one, it just matters that it does work. Half of the FT stuff I read on this forum that supposedly has basis in scientific fact is so scientifically laughable that I... well... laugh. The best FT stuff I've read here follows a simple pattern -- it doesn't try to explain how every servo and hinge works. It just works. And that makes the stories work.

True and false.

The mass of the ship isn't hidden. But no cloak hides the mass of the ship. The mass is allways there.


Mass, yes; but you can hide the mass footprint/shadow by counterforcing the gravity created by that mass.



I use a different approach, interfering with the classification stage of the process, it isn't enough to merely detect something, you must decide how to respond to it. to put it simply, the idea is "I see it, but I don't beleive it."
even AI is succeptable to this concept.

This sounds like some kind of magick or psionic device. I've seen them befor, and they're neat, but such things can be blocked and, as you have to be emmitting, can be tracked.



To quote from a while ago, on irc...

Personally, YES. I would always detect cloaking based on creating even more emissions by doing the incredibly stupid 'cloaking field' approach whose fallacity should be blatantly obvious to a twelve year old.

PS: Visual cloaking in space, with its distances of tens of thousands of kilometers (Only counting orbits) is kinda pointless, no? You can use bright, pink spaceships, and you will still be nothing but a tiny dot, barely visible.

Come to think of it, I am using bright, pink spaceships...

Feild ≠ Emmisions. So long as you don't transit the feild, it's perfectly possible that you could remain oblivious to it. It's also possible that the term feild could be used in a less than literial sense.

As for visual cloaking, it is most certainly not pointless. You may be a tiny dot to the naked eye, but MT scopes can detect stupidly faint and small objects; combine a FT version with something akin to a fisheye lense to open up the feild of vision and run the feed through a computer to filter out the background stuff you know should be there while highlighting discrepencies, and you'd stick out like a sore thumb.

(bump)

Well I am only a MT but I do like my techno-bable so I’ll give it a shot.

Small Craft

Too small for any significant field or distortion or what have you these would have to be purely based on your ability to not reflect their active scans. To do this you’d need to have access to nano-tech, AIs (or just lots of time), and advanced optics.

The exterior of the fighter would be covered in a clear crystal structure that allowed emissions to pass into it. The emission would impact the opaque hull and then begin to reflect. The joy of nanotech means you could have the skin only millimetres thick but at such contrasted angles that the emission would never exit the skin, merely wrap around it until it faded.

The down side to this is two fold. Drag net tactics, with the emitter and receiver in two separate locations, would pick up the break in signal and detect you. The other downside being the tiniest stress might warp your skin and leave a place for emissions to escape.

Capital Ship

The above method is effective but the larger the skin area the larger the probability you will encounter differential in gravity or a meteorite impact or what have you.

Temporal
Tachyons are purported to flow backwards in time. Should you some how be able to have a field about your ship that is resistant to the flow of tachyon particles it is conceivable that you might find yourself being pushed back in time.

This would give the enemy sensor ghosts at most as they will not be able to detect you because your ship exists about a second before they scanned. This technology demands certain assumptions about the passage of time to be true so you’d have to clear it with your opponent to be fair. If you’re working on two different 4D models then it won’t work.

The downside to this is that you will not be able to fire, or scan yourself. You will also get an incredibly confusing menagerie of images from passive sensors as you will be exposed to the same emission billions of times as your ship almost vibrates in time. This would mean that navigation would need to be done by chart and not by actual up to date info. This method would also experience problems within the gravitational pull of any stellar body due to the relation of gravity and time.

Emission bending
manual
This is again a nanotech based technology where the emission would be captured on the opposite side of the ship by a nano bot. The nano bot would transverse the hull and release it on the opposite side.

This is literally impossible as there will always be a delay because the emissions are moving as fast as light, but slower while they are ‘bent’ This technology would not protect you under any scrutiny by enemy scanners.
artificial
You could try to reproduce and retransmit the emissions on the other side using you own equipment but this would assume you ‘somehow’ could produce all emissions ever. With the plethora of scanners out there it’d be a short time before one was used that you didn’t have.
literal
A basic rip off the skin idea above but have the emission exit in predetermined locations based on their entrance. This would again leave you detection under scrutiny as there would be a delay in emissions. The skin is again fragile.

I’m spent for the night,.. more later on request

Feild ≠ Emmisions. So long as you don't transit the feild, it's perfectly possible that you could remain oblivious to it. It's also possible that the term feild could be used in a less than literial sense.1. I.e. you have a field of some vague sorts that is 100% efficient, without any losses? Oh, and when it isn't meant to be a field, you shouldn't use the term field.

And this doesn't even touch the problem of an effective cloaking device needing to prevent thermal radiation, which, in turn (Apart from fucking thermodynamics especially entrophy) will result in your ship turning into an oven, frying the crew and, eventually, the equipment.

There's a reason I'm tending to claim to have massive thermal radiation (Despite space actually being problematic, when it comes to getting rid of heat. But that's what techwank is for. Superconducting surface or something along this lines. Whatever.). I prefer being detected to being fried alive.

And of course, since I doubt that your use of the energy you use for your cloaking field is 100% efficient, you'e actually increasing thermal radiation...

As for visual cloaking, it is most certainly not pointless. You may be a tiny dot to the naked eye, but MT scopes can detect stupidly faint and small objects; combine a FT version with something akin to a fisheye lense to open up the feild of vision and run the feed through a computer to filter out the background stuff you know should be there while highlighting discrepencies, and you'd stick out like a sore thumb.You mean you're using scopes instead of, say, RADAR, LIDAR, wanky mass detection devices, search for ion and/ or EM radiation sources etc.?

Talk about low tech...

On the other hand, I am talking to a nation with a flying god- emperor and spacedy platforms capable of hitting targets from the other side of the galaxy, so there really isn't a point to this, is there?

<snip>That I can agree with. And I'm far more likely to accept 'It does this and this, no, it is bullshit physics, but I like it, deal?' things than to accept <Techbabble. I pwn you.>...

I thought a little about disguising mass when trying to cloak your ship.

What if you could use holographic projectors to display a non-hostile entity, such as an asteroid or space debris?

With proper sensors reporting false consistency (IE. Makeup, Surface temp, ect) readings to sensors, you could pass yourself off as a rock so long as you kept sensors passive, and the engines off.

Now, does this mean you have to use an oddly shaped ship? Or can you find a way to disguise the shape as well as the appearance?

1. I.e. you have a field of some vague sorts that is 100% efficient, without any losses? Oh, and when it isn't meant to be a field, you shouldn't use the term field.

And this doesn't even touch the problem of an effective cloaking device needing to prevent thermal radiation, which, in turn (Apart from fucking thermodynamics especially entrophy) will result in your ship turning into an oven, frying the crew and, eventually, the equipment.

There's a reason I'm tending to claim to have massive thermal radiation (Despite space actually being problematic, when it comes to getting rid of heat. But that's what techwank is for. Superconducting surface or something along this lines. Whatever.). I prefer being detected to being fried alive.

And of course, since I doubt that your use of the energy you use for your cloaking field is 100% efficient, you'e actually increasing thermal radiation...


Point, but a cloaking feild doesn't have to be 100% efficent to decrease overall emmissions; it just has to contain/convert/etc more preexisting emmissions than it leaks anew to reduce net emmissions. Or any increase could be in the form of difficult to detect/natural looking emmissions or directed away from a searching ship.

And thermal energy can be converted into other forms of energy; something akin to heat enchangers/thermocouple system, for example.





You mean you're using scopes instead of, say, RADAR, LIDAR, wanky mass detection devices, search for ion and/ or EM radiation sources etc.?

Talk about low tech...



I was making use of fairly modern tech and passive sensing to counter an argument.

And most folks I know use mass detectors; they're fairly staple in sci-fi overall.



On the other hand, I am talking to a nation with a flying god- emperor and spacedy platforms capable of hitting targets from the other side of the galaxy, so there really isn't a point to this, is there?


*sigh*

1) That was over a fricken year ago, and the result of a missuderstanding; I didn't know a hostage situation would result, and when it did commited to an action wherein I expected him to be killed as a result of his poor judgment in dealing with the situation. And he would have if those mooks had shot at the stupid sheild flair.

2) Interstellar artillery is one-shot, stupidly expensive, only 3-4 instances of such still exist, and it's useage is basicly reserved for dealing with godmody things like ships the size of a white drawf.

3) Please refrain from insults, implied or otherwise.

Now, enough drift; back on topic.



That I can agree with. And I'm far more likely to accept 'It does this and this, no, it is bullshit physics, but I like it, deal?' things than to accept <Techbabble. I pwn you.>...


I accept both, and you're right about folks trying to technobabble their asses to t3h w1n; it's anoying.

However, don't discount folks who use technobabble; most I know recognise that they're spouting BS, including myself, but alot of folks find such adds character and enjoy fleshing out such details.

i use inter phasic cloaks on some of my ships..

My "cloaking device" is actually very advanced sensor stealth. To supplement this, I much prefer to attack while within asteroid fields/nebulas/sensor distorting, sight blocking space terrain. This way I can launch sneak attacks without:

a) having to harness the power of several stars to power it
b) having to use ships the size of small planets
c) being called a godmodder.

Or at least in theroy. I haven't used them yet.

You seem to be concentrating on how cloaking works when you're in the same system as the enemy. Doesn't this ignore the fact (yes, the FACT) that a ship is much easier to detect while tavelling through hyperspace?

You may have your own views, but here's how I picture hyperspace working: Hyperspace is another space that is different from, yet highly connected with, Realspace. Hyperspace communication is possible by creating tiny vibrations in the structure of hyperspace. Hyperspace travel is possible by manipulating this structure to reach the desired destination. The manipulation of hyperspace causes similar vibrations that can be detected.

So, minimize the distortion caused by your hyperdrive, and you minimize your detectability in transit. This doesn't seem to require a cloaking device; it could be as simple as altering the function of your hyperdrive. This is what I'm doing in Kinduran Migration. I lose a quarter of my speed, but the aliens who are chasing me can't detect me as easily.

Again, you probably have your own view on how the universe works, which actually isn't a contradiction, since you have totally different brain designs and technological systems. In the conceptual framework I'm using, a ship in hyperspace can't be detected by most realspace particles. Again it's a different layer of reality. So the only way to detect a ship in hyperspace is by the distortion (which is very detectable by any hyperspace civilization, unless precautions are taken), by the gravity well it still produces in realspace, or by some strange, exotic particle. Your tachyons might work.

Now if you want to use this to creat a cloaking device, suit yourself. you could have a ship in hyperspace that minimizes it's signature by remaining stationary, or travelling at speeds that are effectively akin to realspace. Of course, extra precautions should be taken, since you're hiding from a ship that is relatively close, and can pick up very small hyperspace distortions.

OOC: wow, you just summed up how I think of hyperspace as well. I thought I was alone in that conception.

It's been reported in the modern lore on Greys that they generate a sort of telepathic cloaking field that renders their ships and bodies invisible to human eyes.

Of course, this also has the same weaknesses that people have pointed out in this thread. A moderately skilled telepath can detect the cloak as a tangible hole in his awareness.

Still, you might want to consider simply blinding other races to your presence.

OOC:
As a nation that RPs as Romulans my ships are equiped with the standard romulan cloaking device as well as the advanced system used on the Scimitar. Under my general tech i have a technobabble description of my cloaking device however when it comes down to it it really doesnt matter. The effectiveness of the cloaking device depends on how you rp it as well as the ideas of the people you rp with. If they do not reconnize your cloak and say something like its a godmode or that they can detect it, well thats just up to you and them. But you can not say that your cloak is perfect because that would be a godmode. So when you get down to it its all about the way you RP it. At least thats just the way i think, this is just my oppinion and others will most likely disagree.

The Romulan cloaking device

The Romulan cloaking device has been seen repeatedly from TOS through to the current time. It seems to be based on stealth concepts since all cloaked starships must adopt "silent running" tactics to keep their emissions from revealing their location. Although some Federation cultists claim that it functions by warping space to such an extent that light passes around the ship in the same manner as our own cloaking devices, this is obviously not true for the following reasons:

1. A woman was able to walk up and actually touch a cloaked vessel in ST4 without any ill effects, which would have been impossible if the vessel were surrounded with a massive gravitic spatial distortion.
2. The interior of a cloaked ship can be seen through an open hatch (again, in ST4). Again, if the ship were surrounded by a massive spatial distortion field, then nothing would be visible through the hatch even if it were open.
3. They can still detect EM radiation and other forms of sensor data. If the cloak is a massive spatial distortion, it will indiscriminately prevent all incoming EM radiation (regardless of frequency) from striking the vessel. If it doesn't strike the vessel, the vessel's sensors will never see it and the ship will be blind. However, they can still see when cloaked, so the cloak obviously allows visible light in (and probably, everything else as well). This strongly suggests that the Romulan cloaking effect is based on a form of simulated transparency rather than a massive gravitic field.
4. The ship is unshielded when its cloak is active. This means that energy weapons and torpedoes will strike the vessel unabated. If the cloak employed a massive spatial distortion, it would deflect weapons away as effectively as any shield.

In conclusion, the only important aspect of Romulan cloaks is that cloaked vessels are highly vulnerable to energy and matter-based weapons. As long as they remain cloaked one can still detect them with CGT sensors, but they are bereft of shields and weapons so they can be easily destroyed.


So, this is what I think... Cloaking technology requires several things to work.

1) Emission absorbing materials and devices.

2) Holographic generators close to the hull to project an image of transparency.

3) Running silent; ie powered down weapons, shields, running on passive not active sensors, reduced engine power to minimum levels.

4) Being far enough from scanning ships and constantly moving or dodging into sensor blocking fields.

Point, but a cloaking feild doesn't have to be 100% efficent to decrease overall emmissions; it just has to contain/convert/etc more preexisting emmissions than it leaks anew to reduce net emmissions. Or any increase could be in the form of difficult to detect/natural looking emmissions or directed away from a searching ship.

And thermal energy can be converted into other forms of energy; something akin to heat enchangers/thermocouple system, for example.
1. True enough. Works to increase the time until detection occurs. Fair enough.

2. Also true, but then you would have the other form of energy leaking. Best possibly way would prolly be to spread emissions over the whole EM spectrum (Except Gamma Rays, for obvious reasons), in order to show up as late/ small as possible.

I was making use of fairly modern tech and passive sensing to counter an argument.Failed, given that a 2005 nation exclusively with RL technology wouldn't need to use optics. Radioastronomy and all. And as such, optic stealthyness is pointless, since the only nations who would be dependent on it would field Maxim Machine Guns and Zeppelins. Or less.

3) Please refrain from insults, implied or otherwise.It was more flamebaiting than an insult...

You seem to be concentrating on how cloaking works when you're in the same system as the enemy. Doesn't this ignore the fact (yes, the FACT) that a ship is much easier to detect while tavelling through hyperspace?Depends entirely on your FTL paradigm. For you it may be a fact. For my Shadow puppet... Well, as long as you don't have a telepath on board, it isn't. And for this nation, well, it doesn't have FTL to begin with...

(And yes, I noticed that you basically made my point.)

It's been reported in the modern lore on Greys that they generate a sort of telepathic cloaking field that renders their ships and bodies invisible to human eyes.

Of course, this also has the same weaknesses that people have pointed out in this thread. A moderately skilled telepath can detect the cloak as a tangible hole in his awareness.

Still, you might want to consider simply blinding other races to your presence.This does, again, depend on your paradigm. My teeps are basically a bit of distorted laws of electromagnetism. Using them results in more emissions, and cloaking is outright impossible :P

2. Also true, but then you would have the other form of energy leaking. Best possibly way would prolly be to spreads emissions over the whole EM spectrum (Except Gamma Rays, for obvious reasons), in order to show up s late/ small as possible.


Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of converting it into something useful like electricity, which thermocouples do. Basicly catching what you can of your emmissions and recycling waste energy. Ya can't get all of it, but you can marketedly reduce your thermal footprint without lighting up other freqs.




Failed, given that a 2005 nation exclusively with RL technology wouldn't need to use optics. Radioastronomy and all. And as such, optic stealthyness is pointless, since the only nations who would be dependent on it would field Maxim Machine Guns and Zeppelins. Or less.


I was countering a specific claim - that being that visual cloaking is pointless, as you'd only be a tiny point of light no one would notice - with a specificly designed counterpoint. That is all. Stop taking it out of context.

And just because one is not dependent on visual spectrum sensing, doesn't mean it wouldn't be utalised in conjunction with other methods.

I was countering a specific claim - that being that visual cloaking is pointless, as you'd only be a tiny point of light no one would notice - with a specificly designed counterpoint. That is all. Stop taking it out of context.And I was proving that you're wrong. The theoretical possibility of utilising it doesn't equal the necessity of even the sanity of doing it. And featuring visual cloaking when there's half a dozen other ways to detect you, all of whom are utilised by others, while visual detection is either barely or not at all used is pointless. No way around it.

And I was proving that you're wrong. The theoretical possibility of utilising it doesn't equal the necessity of even the sanity of doing it. And featuring visual cloaking when there's half a dozen other ways to detect you, all of whom are utilised by others, while visual detection is either barely or not at all used is pointless. No way around it.

Ask around out there how many interstellar nations don't consider 'visual scanners' standard equipment on their ships. I'll bet you it's a minority.

Visual cloaking is only pointless if that's all you 'cloak'; as part of an intigrated system, however, it only makes sense - otherwise you're leaving a gaping hole in your disguise if you don't take atleast some measure to stealth that aspect.

OOC: Of course in RL the Russian Military claims that it can make any aircraft invisble using a plasma cloud stealth system that actively cancels radar. This still leaves the plane visible to the naked eye, but invisible to most tagetting systems, which is much more important since tracking and firing line if sight weapons at mach speed jets is, hard.

While a plasma cloud does cancel soundwaves and refract lightwaves it is still only conjecture as to how this could be used to 'cloak' a craft of any type.