NationStates Jolt Archive

With the proliferation of fearless, painless, seven foot tall super-soldiers that are trained from birth, I have begun to wonder if the super-soldiers really are all that super. Does height give any advantage at all? What about training for a lifetime? How about no fear? No pain?

For the first, I feel that height is a disadvantage. Being larger makes you a larger target, and the only effect it may have on the enemy is intimidation, if even that. The only advantage it may have is in close combat, but how many times have you seen a machine-gun armed man be slain by a giant target with a knife, sword, bayanet, etc.? So height doesn't make them better. Is it the training?

The training may make a man as good as a Navy SEAL or Green Beret, but from what I've read, you can only shoot so good, run so fast, etc. I've also heard that too much training has the opposite effect of normal training: it has a negative effect. A normal training system can provide excelent special-ops soldiers, and as far as I can tell, training from birth has no effect on being a soldier.

No fear and no pain can be a mixed blessing. Although training may work this out of the soldier, no fear might cause a super-soldier to run right into enemy fire. After all, he is not afraid of the fire, and the boss said charge. No fear might help a soldier survive the shock of combat. No pain will allow the soldier to fight on unhindered, even though he was just grazed by a bullet on the shoulder. It may also cause him to try and run when his leg was just hit by a bullet. It could also cause him to stick his hand on an oven, being unable to feel pain.

Comments?

God, YES! THANK YOU. Most of these systems severly inhibit initiative, one of the most important factors in soldiers. The costs of the training also far outweigh the benefits... a normal soldier costs $120 000 to train and eqiuip... how much more for someone trained from birth?

As for genetic engineering, that's futuretech pure and simple. We do not know enough about the human genome to even begin fiddling with it. And when you genetically engineer plants, you need to do it thousands and thousands of times to get one viable offspring, and then you need to clone it. Cloned soldiers would suffer from severe problems... a desease that affected one badly woiuld kill them all. Its all so... rediculous. Before you RP genetically engineered supersoldiers, do some basic research into how genetic engineering works, and what it actually can do. It's not responsible RP not to.

Meh. Soldiers that are larger and stronger can carry and use bigger guns.

Training is also a BIG force multiplier, and if you're trained from birth, a lot of the psychological problems ie low morale can be mitigated.

That's my take on your arguements.

Nice idea. My "super soldiers," are not really their names though. I do not belive in feeling no pain, for it is unhumane to make a person like that his/her entire life for just a few years of combat.

As to being taller or fatter (thinking fat men are better at carrying weaponry that is heavy) I think slim and fit works best.

Also, mine are armed with the GISS Standerd Sheets. Check my storefrotn under Army for the information on them and its rifle.

A nice approch to a "super soldier" without making him/her super, only subliminal, in a sense.

DGNT engineers its super-soldiers to be three feet tall, for, as the saying goes:
When his fists are level with your head, your teeth are level with his crotch
No fear is optional, they have no head for drink. Give 'em a beer and they run into battle screaming and suddenly the enemies army is a foot shorter and missing their knees.
We call them, dwarves :P

A serious response though.
Training from birth can have a major effect. Remember the Spartans? Of course, thats only if your entire nation is ultra-militaristic.

A serious response though.
Training from birth can have a major effect. Remember the Spartans? Of course, thats only if your entire nation is ultra-militaristic.

Of course, they needed an entire servent society to provide for them, and were a complete waste of talent and ability. They were good soldiers, but nothing else.

I agree completely, super soldiers are a waste of military funding. A soldier without self-preservation instincts may be extremely deadly, but charging at a tank will just make them extremely dead. Think of all the money spent to feed and train a soldier from birth, about twenty years longer than the average soldier. Combined with the cost of genetic research, the price tag becomes absurd. If an army contains vast numbers of normal soldiers, it could easily defeat a small force of super soldiers.

Of course, they needed an entire servent society to provide for them, and were a complete waste of talent and ability. They were good soldiers, but nothing else.
Like I said, it only works if your entire society is focused on the military.

DGNT engineers its super-soldiers to be three feet tall, for, as the saying goes:
When his fists are level with your head, your teeth are level with his crotch
No fear is optional, they have no head for drink. Give 'em a beer and they run into battle screaming and suddenly the enemies army is a foot shorter and missing their knees.
We call them, dwarves :P


(emphasis added) I can see your point, but are you absolutely sure that's a good thing?

In my opinion, the importance of training a soldier from birth is moral hardness. They won't break easily, they'll be fit and completely used to the program, etc; so it does have its advantages. I don't do it though.

Wow, that made complete and utter sense. Thanks for the information and a good counter-arguement against "Super Soldiers" Fluffywuffy.

Lack of fear is good if it is countered by an abundance of good sense.

~ Romandeos.

For Godular, the big hulking seven-foot-tall robots are just the Officers. That way they can focus on the more mental aspects of being a commanding officer... leadership, tactics, paperwork, without having to worry about such things as exercise and jogging. It also allows them to interface with their vessels more readily, increasing reaction time in situations where it is needed.

All soldiers are essentially trained from birth, well... the career ones, anyway. The entire Godulan populace has been through at least one tour of duty as a support worker in the Godulan Defense Directorate. It builds character, and teaches people how to build bigger stuff too. The Godulan Military prides itself on its infrastructure/engineering almost as much as its ferocity.

But keep in mind, while you're paying attention to the seven foot tall cyborg officer, he'll be telling you to pay attention to the little guys, one of which has materialized out of the bulkhead behind you and jammed his hand through your spine.

For us, its the ones you don't pay attention to... who you should pay attention to. :D

Meh, training doesn't even matter in an RP.

... so training my SpecOps nude and wrapped in aluminum foil in the sun doesn't help their endurance against the heat?

Here's my take,
training from birth: Good and Bad
7ft tall: Bad
No pain/ Fearless: Good and Bad

Training from birth can eliminate many psychological problems, but also it may cause some problems if used inappropriately, for example training them in the exact same things for years on end can be bad, however teaching them their job in a Spec. Ops team and then giving refresher courses every other year, coupled with indvidual physical training can be a good thing.
The 7ft. tall issue is a bad thing because despite extra carrying capacity, you
still are a larger target and may have some other problems.
As for the No pain/fearless issue under certain circumstances it is good, however without proper training it is more of a hinderance than a blessing.

My soldiers are less numerous than other armies but I give them the best equipment I can and their training is very long and practical(guards in humanitarian operations). It has alot more personal freedoms and less abusive drill seargents. Military history and tactics are taught, and some realistic military novels are required reading(with tests analyzing the decisions made in them and how realistic they are).

More important than super-soldiers is super-mobility. The ability to get your soldiers to advantagaeous tactical locations is far more important to victory than how skilled they are on an individual level. If an enemy uses cyborg super-soldiers capable of flipping jeeps with one hand, and you use conscripts with bolt-action rifles, you win if you have all their leaders crouching in a circle in their capital building because you have nice stealthy transport helicopters.

Also vitally important is logistics, because if you have a machinegun nest that can fire for weeks on end, no one is getting past it, retractable poisoned claws or not.

Meh, training doesn't even matter in an RP.

... so training my SpecOps nude and wrapped in aluminum foil in the sun doesn't help their endurance against the heat?
No, but you wont have any food problems in hot weather.

No, but you wont have any food problems in hot weather.

...

We have women too.

You don't want no pain, you want pain tolerence. That way they can keep fighting with that bullet graze, but they do know they are hurt and will seek attention when the time is approiate.

Heigh... meh, sure you can use more guns but require more food/water for that frame, along with being a bigger target.

Training from birth can be wonderful, if used correctly. And no, don't need a whole militaristic society. Make the military its own society, but tie it in with everyone else someway (not 100% necessary but can be helpful). Birth training allows indoctrine of beliefs and give more time for them to train (learning how to work as a unit is the hardest part).

your right it does cost alot of money to train a soldier, and by the way 120,000 dollars is just what the americans spend on their soldiers, other countries have a differnt budget for it like the british is more because they have less troops. anyways its not the money thats involved anyway, i mean think about it parents raise their kids from birth and they dont go completly into debt because of it well not most of them.

Soldiers occupy their time by still training after their Basic training making them more effecient no matter how many times you go over something you can never be perfect at it, but you can find better ways of doing something after practicing it over and over again. but being trained from birth isnt physical, during your adolescent years your mind is the body part that is growing the fastest well learning, when your 12 and under your physical strength doesnt matter because it can never increase at that age, so you would have to give them brain food at that age, then go onto training physically at 13. its really like a JROTC program its just their mindless killing machines.

and pain and fear is something you would still want your soldiers to have just not too much of it, some of each is good but too much is bad, regular soldiers overcome them just by their mentality and training for example: "Oh shyt, its a King Tiger Tank, duck!!! Dawtson Fire that Bazooka!!!!" comapred to: "OH MY GOD ITS A HUGE ASS TANK!!!! I WANT MY MOMMY! MOMMY! MOMMY!" or: "King Tiger Tank fire randomly at the front of it with side arm colt .45 pistol." Fear is what keeps a human alive thats why the course of evolution has decided to keep that instinct, it makes us think on our feet, because self presevation is on all of our minds.

pain is something you need because as someone said before if we didnt have it wed all keep our hands on the top of a working oven.

height honestly i think the ebst height is between 5 ft 8 inch and 6 ft 2 inch just because people who are usually that size are average in all the demands they can have good strength, and be able to hide better. and weight between 150 and 210 at those heights again speed and power and stealth

Really, these "super soldiers," even the well RPed and overall really decent AMF Sentinels, are paper tigers. Sure, they have training, but their whole lives have been devoted to the military. This isn't good. They don't connect with their nation on a personal level. Normal soldiers fight for the sole purpose of defending their country. However, they have families and homes, which, indirectly, they are defending as well. A "super soldier" is fighting because someone told him too, and he's been taught to follow orders. They must have terrible morale, knowing that they will never have a life that is not marked by bloodshed and death. What motivates them to fight?

Anyway, we use citizen soldiers who know that if they don't defend their country, not only will their country be destroyed, but their homes and families as well. That personal connection with all they hold dear motivates them to give their lives for their country, and, ideally, make the other bastard die for his. It's much better then a class of super soldiers.

Maybe they want to slaughter the oppents, they like the war, they like the killing and the stress? Indoctrine them with a religion, they are fighting for a divine being/entity (aka the state) and by fighting they are upholding the rightous and destroying evil etc etc.

You also need to consider that someone who's 7 feet tall and weighs 300 pounds is going to eat a LOT more than a smaller soldier.. two very good sci fi series dealt with this issue... IN one there was a 7 foot something supersoldier who had fangs, claws, and could benchpress a two hundred KILOS... but she had to eat a mean just about every hour (she was also really sensitive about her apearence and dressed in pink to try to keep from scaring people... it didn't work). Another one had less obvious modifications (no fangs) but still, the same superhigh metabolism. And both of them far prefered shooting enemies with standard rifles to actually mixing it uip hand to hand.

I have a question: I know it's more future tech, but would a genetically created race of warriors count as super soldiers? I would say that they are, as you could engeneer a whole race with a single purpose -to kill- and that were designed to exact specifications, like no pain or a height of 7 ft.

My super solider is in my pants ;)


no really he is.....

In my opinion, the only good "Super-Soldier" is the common man who joins his nation’s armed forces of his own free will, is given sufficiently long and detailed training, is kept healthy through the liberal application of nutritious food and good medical care, and who is led by superb officers and NCOs. He should also have an understanding of what is going to happen to his people is he fails to do his duty as a soldier. If you do this, even bums taken in off the streets will fight and die like heroes for their people.

This is why I don't use them, although I might one day for an RP I have planned. They're big targets, they eat too much, and they cost way too much. I'm a liberal nation who wouldn't take kids at birth to train, and I have a low economy. So, while I favour a small elite army, I use normal unmodified humans.

The reason why they're elite is that they wear good, reliable body armour, and they get enough marksmanship training to hit an enemy in the head at half a kilometre.

Who is it that actually uses thes 7 foot tall super soldiers?

My super solider is in my pants ;)
no really he is.....

Tell him to give you your pants back, then.

You can train someone to shoot a target at whatever distance but the reality in combat is something quite else, in WWII only around 50% of soldiers actually shot to kill an enemy. In Vietnam it had risen a bit more and now it's somewhere near 90%.

Training was modified, it changed from paper sheets to human shaped targets, the enemy was dehumanised, blame was shared across units and on larger figures with no real face; the government, the chain of command and the nation.

You can practice limited genetic selection, rather like breeding flowers in Victorian times was a method of genetic selection. You breed people with the right qualities until you get the right combination, course it would take about sixty years to begin approaching the right natural combination and as such it something of a waste of time.

Once you hit future-tech of course you can use stuff like virtual reality to train soldiers in half the time, change the way information is entering their brain by altering their perception of time. One second outside the VR is ten for them, Tales From The Afternow is a great source for super-soldiers.
Course that's strictly future-tech and focused around a totalitarian state with a world at war and a government with less power than corporations.

The only practical advantage for tall soldiers is heat dispersion, aaround 7ft though you get physical problems which cannot be countered, just ask the tallest people in the world the state of their health.

Genetic Engineering = Future Tech
7 Foot Troops = Massive target + cant fit through doors + IFVs must be much bigger + need more food and water
Training From Birth = Huge expense to get troops who haven't a clue what they're fighting for
Cloning = Genetic defects leading to a copy of poorer quality to both the original and most of the human race

Basically, I will ignore most, if not all 'super soldiers'.

Genetic Engineering = Future Tech.

I would have to disagree on this one, because it is possible to breed soldiers to your desired standards through a long-term process of selective breeding.

I would have to disagree on this one, because it is possible to breed soldiers to your desired standards through a long-term process of selective breeding.
And that will take hundreds of years. Next question.

And that will take hundreds of years. Next question.

Not definitely so. It all depends on how far you want to go.

And that will take hundreds of years. Next question.

In free-form RP, you can RP 1 RL day as 1 NS year... 10 NS years... 100 NS years, or even 1000 NS years.

Time is relative in NS RP'ing, as there is no standard for NS time.


Hell, I could begin genetically breeding soldiers as an Ancient Roman Empire (Have them all breed to have blond hair, blue eyes.... or be 6 feet tall, or other physical characterstics) and call them Zeus Legions. Then in MT times, 2005 AD, I have millions of these Zeus soldiers.

Just an example.

In free-form RP, you can RP 1 RL day as 1 NS year... 10 NS years... 100 NS years, or even 1000 NS years.

Time is relative in NS RP'ing, as there is no standard for NS time.


Hell, I could begin genetically breeding soldiers as an Ancient Roman Empire (Have them all breed to have blond hair, blue eyes.... or be 6 feet tall, or other physical characterstics) and call them Zeus Legions. Then in MT times, 2005 AD, I have millions of these Zeus soldiers.

Just an example.

Yeah, but abusing the 'fluid time' idea is likely to get you ignored. So I'm not gonna go around saying "I'm starting a eugenics program," and then the next day say "Well, 500 years have passed, and now thanks to my eugenics program, I have an army of 2,335,346 ubersoldiers."

That's a real quick way to get me labeled a n00b :rolleyes:

I do have ubertech...in geology. But I spent about a RL month and trillions of dollars developing it...it took a few NS decades. It's documented in my sig. And it took up all of my nation's R&D capacity, too, and now I'm trying to buy tech that I neglected from other nations to catch up.

I think super-soldiers would be more useful with powered armor to offset the OMG big target...look at the SPARTAN project in Halo. Yeah, I'd like to have them for special ops, but that is definately FT.

My Special forces is the only place you'll find "super-soldiers" and I merely wait until they are old enough to decide for themselves (around 13-14 years old) then I give them the best training I can and equip them with the best weapons on the market. Every other year or so they do have to take refresher courses, but they don't spend their whole life training. They are merely super-well trained and armed humans, not 7ft tall results of genetic experiments. (Though a small number of the men were created in labs for families that could not have children, as in real life)

You can teach them alot more over a life time then after they hit 13. Little bit of indoctrination from birth and they won't care what they are fighting for, they think that anything your government is fighting is evil and killing it is the will of some divine-thing.

The point is for them to have seen what life is like and give them a sense of pride in the country they fight for, with training from birth all they see is the training facility, not the rest of the world, we let them live an actual life, then, at 13 we give them a choice, to protect their way of life in the special forces or to live out their life as they have seen, we give them the list of advantages and disadvantages of the special forces and ask them to think it over carefully. You would be surprised how many say yes without even a second thought, the key to the whole program is choice. You chose to be there, so you work harder make your country proud of you than if you were drafted at birth. Thus we eliminate any chance that a soldier will go AWOL or run away from battle, because they chose to be there and they have something tangible to fight for.

I think a far more pressing question is what does one do with these "super soldiers" when they become to old to fight effectively. Presumably they will lack the skills to get a real job, and they'll probably find it hard to cope with life as a civillian since they've never been one. A lot of ex-servicemen end up becoming homeless (http://www.nesa.org.uk/latest_issue/nov-dec-13.htm) because they can't deal with life outside the military.
I for one would not feel comfortable with a race of genetically engineered superbeings designed specifically to kill roaming the streets with no where to live, and presumably feeling somewhat betrayed by their government.

That is the beauty of my plan, they can attain the skills necessary for a productive career outside of service during their off years after initial training. Also my government basically sets up its spec. ops veterans for life after they retire so I have almost no homeless soldiers except those that made bad choices in their post military careers, and even they are not beyond help from my gov't.

Drop them into logistics! That or if they prove themselves inteligence or a military deskjob.

No, you don't want mindless machines trained to kill. You want flexible human being whom utterly support the government, and tell them that no matter where your stuffed you are still fighting the infidels.

I would like to put forth a few questions / thoughts of my own.

#1: If your enemy claims to have Super-Soldiers... take AMF for example... then should you create your own Super-Soldiers to equal theirs?

#2: Super-Soldiers aren't Super, in my opinion. A simple artillery round, machine gun, or a Magnum pistol shot can kill Super-Soldiers rather easy. Simple kinetic energy.

#3: I think people are trying to create super-soldiers to counter the multi-million man armies older nations are throwing around. Smaller 1 billion nations may feel the urge to create super-soldiers to counter a 3 or 4 billion nation's 200 million man strong military (going by a 5% deployment at most).

Im a super soldier if that's what you mean :D

I agree completely with you Fluff.

Seven feet tall and 250 pounds makes a nice target for a machine gunner. If he doesnt feel pain so what? We have plenty of ammunition to make sure he doesnt feel anything!

People have really put up good arguements for and against the super-soldier, though most agree with me that they are...questionable in quality. Some of these arguements I will now work on.

Someone said that the supersoldier would be brainwashed during his entire military career, then given essential life skills before being eventually discharged. This would keep them from doing questionable things. However, if normal army members sometimes can't adapt to civilian life--even though I was a military dependant, life out of the millitary is quite different than in--how are the brainwashed soldiers going to react?

They have been raised all of their life in the military, and probably haven't really had any interaction with other people. They probably don't know their parents, have probably never felt love, and have absolutely no social skills whatsoever.

heh, why retire them? when they're too old just use them as cannon fodder

I agree completely with you Fluff.

Seven feet tall and 250 pounds makes a nice target for a machine gunner. If he doesnt feel pain so what? We have plenty of ammunition to make sure he doesnt feel anything!

A five foot, 180lb., soldier also presents quite a target for a machine-gunner...it's the ability of the better, stronger, soldier who can take the most bullets which makes a difference in the long run - for every bullet that guy takes the guys beside him get one step closer to the enemy... I think such soldiers are designed for human wave tactics.

Bullet to the heart gonna stop a super-soldier just as fast as a Joe grunt.

Bullet to the heart gonna stop a super-soldier just as fast as a Joe grunt.

Sure, but in a franctic battle a bullet to the heart isn't exactly a 100% chance - consequently, in the stretch of it all, stronger soldiers who are genitically designed to withstand pain are much better.

However, I see it as FT, so I don't like them in my MT threads.

True, but training can give wonderful pain tolerence as well, but you are right; genetic engineering would do it even better but is future tech.

They have been raised all of their life in the military, and probably haven't really had any interaction with other people. They probably don't know their parents, have probably never felt love, and have absolutely no social skills whatsoever.

Hmmmm, I smell total social stagnation, which is most certainly a bad thing.

Even before they get too old to fight, you people must realize that soldiers interact with local civilian populations on a very regular basis. If you plan on occupying a country, you want soldiers that the populous can relate to on a human level. The more similar your culture is to theirs, the better. If you use super-soldiers you basically insure they'll see you as inhuman monsters.

well the way I look at it, war in itself is pretty much all but pointless, all that happens in war is that a group of people, 10-10000 get guns and fire upon the enemy, that can greatly reduce the economy with lack of people, or enhance it with new jobs etc. but at the same time like was said, if we start paying for "Super Soldiers" whats the damn difference of them dying and real life individuals, they'll cost more to train, tests, food etc., from birth and at the same time, I don't care if you are 12 feet tall, everybody has weak points, lets look at the simple fact that a regular person 5'10 is shot in the head, yes, they will die, what benifits come from a "Super Soldier" getting shot in the head as well, I do believe the overall results in both scenarios will be death, humans, whether genetically enhanced or not still breath, eat, sleep, blink I don't care, wow, lets pay $100000 for one enhancement so when he gets shot in the liver, heart, head, he dosen't feel the pain, its a great day indeed when you can feel death, kind of an oxymoron if you ask me, death is painful, well after the initial stages of death I don't think they feel much anymore, now thats just an opinionated statement but yes. As was commented earlier we don't know enough about genetics and human design, hasn't cloning started, thats a giant step in the direction of "Super Soldier Warfare" but no matter what you do everybody dies, unless you build robots to fight wars, then what'll happen, it'll be over when one opposing sides economy collapses from lack of funds, or when the robots say "man, I'm freakin tired of fighting" what do you think will happen first, in all reality, the wealthier, larger countries already have the advantage of stronger economic build for their nation, thus they can produce more mass number, they have more people, bodies in war are crucial last time I checked, and not to mention overopinionated government systems, power corrupts most people, and the more you have the more you want, if you have a lot then you'll kill for more. Kind of venturing off topic but we have to look at the evolution of warfare thats happened in recent decades, in WWII the russians were still fighting with horseback calvary against tanks, the future does not look bright. And what will stop a "Super Soldier" from napalm, atom bombs, land mines, grenades, snipers, rpg, sams, human mistakes, I'm done

A five foot, 180lb., soldier also presents quite a target for a machine-gunner...it's the ability of the better, stronger, soldier who can take the most bullets which makes a difference in the long run - for every bullet that guy takes the guys beside him get one step closer to the enemy... I think such soldiers are designed for human wave tactics.
No, a five foot soldier can take cover and presents a much smaller target. There is a reason that the British Army has an upper height limit... (well it definately used to, not sure if it still does). I don't think people understand this thing about bullets... they hit you, you die. NO ONE keeps running after being hit even once. A bullet to the arm will break your arm. You then have a useless piece of dead weight hanging off of you, most likely bleeding from a major artery. The same with a leg, except that even worse because you then misbalance and fall over. A shot in the chest and you're dead. Organ failure or major haemorraging. I should also note that machineguns don't fire 1 bullet. They fire many, and you will take many hits. I think World War I proved that machinegun-post-charging wasn't a good tactic, especially when the enemy has artillery.

Meh. I dont care. You cna use your super soldiers (costing millions each as opposed to a hundred thousand or so) as human waves against my troops. You will die. Horribly.

No, a five foot soldier can take cover and presents a much smaller target. There is a reason that the British Army has an upper height limit... (well it definately used to, not sure if it still does). I don't think people understand this thing about bullets... they hit you, you die. NO ONE keeps running after being hit even once. A bullet to the arm will break your arm. You then have a useless piece of dead weight hanging off of you, most likely bleeding from a major artery. The same with a leg, except that even worse because you then misbalance and fall over. A shot in the chest and you're dead. Organ failure or major haemorraging.


Having been in combat, and having seen men keep running and shooting and killing after being hit more than once in some cases, I can safely say you don't know what you are talking about.

Your other points are eclipsed by this ignorance.

The idea of super soldiers is comparatively ludicrous but has an old history, such as the Spartans, the Persian Immortals, etc. Even so, the Romans with their citizen army defeated the great armies of the Spartans, the Celtic hosts, and a lot of other enemies before they themselves fell into poverty and their leaders into the depravity of empire. It was the stoicism of the Romans during the Republic that enabled them to succeed against more professional (trained since birth) or more culturally motivated (the only free man is a warrior rather than every free man is a soldier) foes.

Similar might be said of modern armies. The Soviets, inured to miserable conditions under the harsh climate of the USSR as well as Stalin's tyrannical rule, seemed like supermen to the invading Germans once the Red Army finally had some decent leadership. The Red Army troops tended not to cry out when hit. They also had a greater fear of what their NCOs, officers, or political officers would do to them and their families (penal battalions, gulags, straight-forward firing squads) if they failed. The Nipponese Army was similarly effective with the inculcation of bushido style culture on peasant and worker soldiers.

In other words, ideology and training together would create a super soldier. Hardship from birth, generally from poverty (urban centres) or from one's profession (i.e. farming) will produce soldiers who are more resistant to the hardships of war than citizen soldiers from safe, suburban middle-class homes. Training to fire at man-shaped targets will teach the soldiers to aim and fire at men without a second thought. Training will train the body to behave 'instinctively' to threats, such as that of gas attacks (scream "Gas, gas, gas!" in a pub full of servicemen and you'll see them hunched over searching for their masks, just before they pummel you into the planks!).

Drugs will just make the soldiers addicts.

The best soldiers are those who can control their fear, behave as if they are unafraid while shitting themselves, be able to operate alone yet work well in a team, behave in a civilised fashion around civilians and can kill someone at a word. They have to be intelligent but obedient, willing but questioning, knowledgeable of the rules and when to break them.

It's difficult to decide, having read the thread.Super Soliders: Different shapes and sizes? Different jobs! Training, hard and stair-stepped, no macho bullshit. If you can't take it, then bugger off! All this creates a solider that is not 'super' in the sense of genome enginnering, which isn't truly possible in this day and age, but super in the fact that they are simply versions of every person who have built up into someone who, whilst still suffering from fear, knows how to quell it to maximum effect, has a cool head, and can do the things regulars deem impossible.

Having been in combat, and having seen men keep running and shooting and killing after being hit more than once in some cases, I can safely say you don't know what you are talking about.
After being hit by several 12.7mm machinegun bullets? If you have then I will gladly ceade the point.

Your other points are eclipsed by this ignorance.
That in turn is a very ignorant comment/

After being hit by several 12.7mm machinegun bullets? If you have then I will gladly ceade the point.

Please tell me, where did you specify a 12.7mm machinegun bullet. In your gross generalization you simply said bullet, which is taken to mean any bullet, even though in context I took bullet to mean any rifle or machinegun round.

I was refering to this statement (that's why I quoted it):

"Originally Posted by The Macabees
A five foot, 180lb., soldier also presents quite a target for a machine-gunner...it's the ability of the better, stronger, soldier who can take the most bullets which makes a difference in the long run - for every bullet that guy takes the guys beside him get one step closer to the enemy... I think such soldiers are designed for human wave tactics."

which refers to a machinegun.

The idea of super soldiers is comparatively ludicrous but has an old history, such as the Spartans, the Persian Immortals, etc. Even so, the Romans with their citizen army defeated the great armies of the Spartans, the Celtic hosts, and a lot of other enemies before they themselves fell into poverty and their leaders into the depravity of empire. It was the stoicism of the Romans during the Republic that enabled them to succeed against more professional (trained since birth) or more culturally motivated (the only free man is a warrior rather than every free man is a soldier) foes.

Similar might be said of modern armies. The Soviets, inured to miserable conditions under the harsh climate of the USSR as well as Stalin's tyrannical rule, seemed like supermen to the invading Germans once the Red Army finally had some decent leadership. The Red Army troops tended not to cry out when hit. They also had a greater fear of what their NCOs, officers, or political officers would do to them and their families (penal battalions, gulags, straight-forward firing squads) if they failed. The Nipponese Army was similarly effective with the inculcation of bushido style culture on peasant and worker soldiers.

In other words, ideology and training together would create a super soldier. Hardship from birth, generally from poverty (urban centres) or from one's profession (i.e. farming) will produce soldiers who are more resistant to the hardships of war than citizen soldiers from safe, suburban middle-class homes. Training to fire at man-shaped targets will teach the soldiers to aim and fire at men without a second thought. Training will train the body to behave 'instinctively' to threats, such as that of gas attacks (scream "Gas, gas, gas!" in a pub full of servicemen and you'll see them hunched over searching for their masks, just before they pummel you into the planks!).

Drugs will just make the soldiers addicts.

The best soldiers are those who can control their fear, behave as if they are unafraid while shitting themselves, be able to operate alone yet work well in a team, behave in a civilised fashion around civilians and can kill someone at a word. They have to be intelligent but obedient, willing but questioning, knowledgeable of the rules and when to break them.

I don't think anymore more can be said. This is quite simply everything I planned to say.

That and the romans had one of the more flexible combat styles as opposed to the phalanx which was used by Spartans etc (if you flank a phalanx you win).

That and the romans had one of the more flexible combat styles as opposed to the phalanx which was used by Spartans etc (if you flank a phalanx you win).
Unlike in Rome Total War when it randomly turns around... and then if you attack with them they just walk right into the enemy with their spear / pike thingies up. Gah![/unrelated rant]

"A small group of Afghans clustered around a wood fire, arguing. Two of them were disputing as to who was the bravest. To prove this point, one of them leaned forward and thrust his hand into the fire. He held it there, the flames eating at his flesh. Despite the excruciating agony he made no sound, only the locked jaw, the screwing up of the eyes and the slight shaking of his arm indicated the supreme effort of will necessary to conquer the pain. For a few momrnts he kept it roasting in front of his audience. When he pulled back his hand, it was bright red, dripping fluid. The man had established his courage.

This example of Afghan physical courage really happened and shows that supersoldiers exist. Physical courage is the center of the Afghan character. They do not fear death nor pain. At the age of 15 their father will offer them a weapon, they are(unlike what some may say) free to refuse(it does make a serious dent in ones life and few ever refused it). From that day on the boy becomes a man and fight alongside his father, friends and family for the next 50 years of their life.
But, i hear you say, these men are obviously estranged from normal society. Nope, when there is a Jihad(such as the one of 1979-89 in Afghanistan) they work in "shifts". A man serves for 3-4 months at the frontline, then he goes home and works on the field as farmer, becomes shopkeeper again or any other job that he requires to feed his family. While he feeds his family, a relative will go to war for several months to make sure there is always atleast one member of the family fighting the holy war.
When they are old(majority of the Afghans are younger than 40) they stay home to tend for their families or in some cases become fieldcommander.

The only thing these men lack is organization, they are civilians with weapons (and always regard themselves as such; a free person. free to go home when he wishes). But with the help of outside coordinators (Pakistani officers for instance) they can become an army you should never underestimate.

I thank you for you time