NationStates Jolt Archive

[Press Release - Colonial Department of Defense]



Today's modern world is one where conflict and war are commonplace, while the threat of invasion is ever present. The Mississpian Federation publically threatens the Democratic Colonies and knowingly plans for our destruction. The Mississpian Federation is rumored to utilize genetic enhancement technologies to create legions of superhuman soldiers bred for combat, while other nations like MassPwnage train children from birth to be soldiers, transforming an otherwise normal human being into a bloodthirsty killing machine. The Democratic Colonies has always relied on quality training and high technology to protect Colonial interests from those who threaten them. The Powered Exoskeleton Program is only the next evolutionary step in this ethos, and is believed by the Department of Defense to be the best counter-technology to genetic enhancement programs used by nations like Mississpi.

The Powered Exoskeleton Program has been running in one form or another for the last thirty years. In the last ten years alone, over 25 trillion dollars were expended on efforts to enhance the strength, stamina, mobility and protection of the Colonial infantryman. These efforts were only accelerated when rumors of genetic enhancement of combat troops in the Mississpian Federation broke out, causing concern in the Department of Defense that coventionally trained and equipped Colonial infantry would be outmatched by their genetically enhanced Mississpian counterparts.

The Democratic Colonies will in the course of this week, begin issuing the Powered Combat Exoskeleton Mark I to select units for field testing. Although the Powered Exoskeleton Program suffered a setback last winter when an exoskeleton exploded, killing its operater, the Department of Defense assures the public that most of the bugs in the system have been worked out since then and the reliability of the units has improved greatly. While the exoskeletons will be unable to operate in jungle, swamp, or other extremely humid environments, and do still suffer from performance drops in extremely hot desert or cold arctic environments, these problems are still being addressed and evaluated. A solution to the power supply problem is also still in the development stages, but the Department of Defense believes that the current battery life of 4 to 5 hours of combat operations is acceptable for the time being. The units are currently powered by thin-film solid oxide fuel cells (SOFCs) (http://www.newstarget.com/001540.html) (http://www.uh.edu/admin/media/nr/2004/07july/072204fuelcells.html).

The Powered Combat Exoskeleton Mark I will be issued in the following quantities:
- 288 issued to the Colonial Navy Special Operations Command, Navy Lancer Teams 1 through 12
- 288 issued to the Colonial Army Special Operations Command, Army Ranger Force Detachments Alpha, Echelon, Gamma, Theta

After a period of one year, the Department of Defense will evaluate the performance of the Powered Exoskeleton Mark I, and will determine if the exoskeleton is suitable for further deployment.

The PCE Mark I protects the operator with first a layer of titanium osmium composite (http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Os.html) (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20020406/fob2.asp), followed by a layer of ceramic composite, followed by another layer of titanium osimium composite.

While the exact performance benefit provided by the exoskeleton will vary from person to person, the following advantages can be expected for the average operator:
- ability to lift 150% of thier body weight when using both arms
- ability to carry a pack of 300 pounds on thier backs for extended periods without excessive physical effort
- complete elimination of recoil and muzzle climb from firing shoulder weapons
- ability to ability to run a distance of 100 metres in an estimated period of 20 seconds in full gear
- ability to jump a vertical height of 1 metre in full gear
- improved ballistic protection, ability to stop multiple magazines of 7.62mm NATO rounds before exoskeleton is compromised


The early Powered Exoskeleton Prototype Alpha, providing the operator with increased back weight carrying abilities
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/Exoskeletons/l13524-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/Exoskeletons/7fa0cd6e.jpg

The Powered Exoskeleton Prototype Bravo, providing the operator with full body strength enhancement
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/Exoskeletons/318d54a5.jpg

The Powered Combat Exoskeleton Mark I, providing the operator with full body strength enhancement and ballistic protection
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/Exoskeletons/1d6e17f9.jpg
(Weapon pictured is a semi-automatic 30mm grenade launcher)


The Powered Combat Exoskeleton Mark I is expected to even the odds when Colonial Forces are engaged against the genetically enhanced soldiers of hostile militaries, such as that of the Mississpian Federation. During the course of this one year field testing program, any problems associated with the exoskeleton will be brought forward, analyzed and solved. After the PCE Mark I completes field testing, an improved model is expected to be issued to certain segments of the Colonial infantry. In the long term, the Department of Defense expects to equip 25% to 50% of all Colonial infantry with one type or another of powered exoskeleton in the future.

OOC: Nice.

IC:

We have integrated advanced infantry combat systems into our army, but still, they are not true powered armor. We are intrigued by this technology, and we ask if it is possible for us to take a look at it ourselves.

Taira Yuna
Sec. of State
Demopublic of Upper Xen

Up until the last design, these look flimsy and unfit for military applications, where a single bullet could sever the load-bearing mechanisms and cause a soldier to drop everything they have. We have a couple (http://members.cox.net/resicorp/gunsuit.htm) of things (http://members.cox.net/resicorp/wingsuit.htm) that you can buy that are a mite better defencivly than what you have. These are namely our Gunsuit (http://members.cox.net/resicorp/gunsuit.htm) and our Wingsuit (http://members.cox.net/resicorp/wingsuit.htm).

H.J. R-Washu, Head of R&D
The Resi Corporation

We have integrated advanced infantry combat systems into our army, but still, they are not true powered armor. We are intrigued by this technology, and we ask if it is possible for us to take a look at it ourselves.

Taira Yuna
Sec. of State
Demopublic of Upper Xen


We would be pleased to allow you a look at the PCE Mark I. While, ofcourse, we cannot allow you to make any detailed technical analysis of the system at this time, I believe a demonstration and showcasing can be arranged.

- Secretary Robert Wolfe, Colonial Department of Defense
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/NationStates/rc.jpg)




ooc: The Resi Corporation, I'm a MTish RPer. My nation is somewhere between 2015 and 2019, with a leaning towards the 2015 side of things. I don't think I can use your equipment.

We would be pleased to allow you a look at the PCE Mark I. While, ofcourse, we cannot allow you to make any detailed technical analysis of the system at this time, I believe a demonstration and showcasing can be arranged.

- Secretary Robert Wolfe, Colonial Department of Defense
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/NationStates/rc.jpg)


Not a problem.


Taira Yuna
Sec. of State
Demopublic of Upper Xen

ooc: The Resi Corporation, I'm a MTish RPer. My nation is somewhere between 2015 and 2019, with a leaning towards the 2015 side of things. I don't think I can use your equipment.
((OOC: Aaah, I was once modern-ish tech, but then I went for full future. That last guy you had there threw me off, making me think you were future tech. Still, you might want to work on the durability of the systems in combat situations))

((OOC: Aaah, I was once modern-ish tech, but then I went for full future. That last guy you had there threw me off, making me think you were future tech. Still, you might want to work on the durability of the systems in combat situations))

ooc: Only the last system pictured will be used in actual military operations. I just wanted to show the evolution of the exoskeletons. First, the legs were developed with Prototype Alpha, and then a full body system with the next prototype, and then that was layered with armour and further refined to make the Mark I for actual military use.

OOC: Neat drawing. I like it, seems to fit in well with post modern tech, but isn't quite up to FT standards.

IC: Meh.

ooc: Comments welcome. Is this a good counter to genetically engineered super-soldiers? Or are they pointless techno-toys that will be brushed aside by AMF Sentinels or Mississpian Paratroopers?

OOC: Sentinels and Mississippian paras are just normal humans with loads of training / experience respectively.

EDIT: How do these things take 20mm rounds and how much do they cost (Im expecting a lot, ie limiting your overall military size)?

How is it powered? How do you get it to jump so high? Everything else seems reasonable... appart from the sprinting, but I suppose that's possible too.

OOC: Sentinels and Mississippian paras are just normal humans with loads of training / experience respectively.

EDIT: How do these things take 20mm rounds and how much do they cost (Im expecting a lot, ie limiting your overall military size)?

ooc:
I thought AMF Sentinals were clones of Damien the Destroyer? And OOCly, DA's told me that many of his troops are genetically modified, although that's not supposed to be well known confirmed IC knowledge.

I think the PCE Mark I would be disabled after three to six 20mm rounds of an explosive nature. The armour could stop a similar number of sabot type rounds before the armour is compromised and the operator is likely dead or incapacitated inside of the exoskeleton.

I haven't determined cost yet, but I would guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-5 million per exoskeleton. While only 576 are currently in the hands of actual on duty military units, when/if use of the PCE Mark I becomes more commonplace in my military, I expect it to cause a large reduction (perhaps 50%) in the number of total personel in my Army. On the plus side, use of the exoskeletons should cut back on the number of APCs and Infantry Fighting Vehicles needed, which should offset some small amount of the costs of exoskeleton operation.

How is it powered? How do you get it to jump so high? Everything else seems reasonable... appart from the sprinting, but I suppose that's possible too.

The system is powered by hydrogen fuel cells. In combat conditions, the PCE Mark I is expected to operate for 36 to 48 hours before running out of fuel and requiring replenishment, probably from a forward operating base. Do you think that 36-48 hours is too long of a time period?

As for the jumping, its simply a product of the strength enhancement provided by the exoskeletons. Pistons and servos assist the operator in jumping.

ooc:
I thought AMF Sentinals were clones of Damien the Destroyer? And OOCly, DA's told me that many of his troops are genetically modified, although that's not supposed to be well known confirmed IC knowledge.

Yes, but Damien the Destroyer is just a normal human being, if a well built one. At least that is how I understand it...

I think the PCE Mark I would be disabled after three to six 20mm rounds of an explosive nature. The armour could stop a similar number of sabot type rounds before the armour is compromised and the operator is likely dead or incapacitated inside of the exoskeleton.

Interesting... I only ask because BNP-1s die to 20mm SABOTs on the front armour.

I haven't determined cost yet, but I would guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-5 million per exoskeleton. While only 576 are currently in the hands of actual on duty military units, when/if use of the PCE Mark I becomes more commonplace in my military, I expect it to cause a large reduction (perhaps 50%) in the number of total personel in my Army. On the plus side, use of the exoskeletons should cut back on the number of APCs and Infantry Fighting Vehicles needed, which should offset some small amount of the costs of exoskeleton operation.

I see. Well the US military recons they spend $50,000 getting a basic GI from recruit to combat, so it should cut you back quite a bit. As for replacing IFVs... well not entirely. These certainly dont go at 50mph (at least they damn well shouldnt), and they can't tow artillery, ammo etc. not to mention that people just dont like marching for days on end.

Yes, but Damien the Destroyer is just a normal human being, if a well built one. At least that is how I understand it...


I think we were a both a bit off the mark. According to here: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=336326

"They are a genetically pure species of man, and are bereft of genetic impurities such as asthma, certain cancers, etc. From the second they are removed from the harvesting machines, they are fed blood, death, and war. Their entire life is spent in training for war, and through 24/7 training they are molded into the perfect soldier. Emotions such as fear and remorse are foreign to them, and they are taught to do exactly as they are told. They are taught that killing is the only thing they live for, and their bloodlust grows every day that they do not spill blood. They are not paid soldiers, for they have been taught that money and treasure is worthless...

The Sentinels are clones of the original copy, Lord Damien Dreadfire. While not as tall and burly, the Sentinels are a fighting force rivaled only by the Reavers of Pantera."

So while they do not have genetically augmented strength or reflexes, a certain amount of genetic engineering does go into them and they undergo a military training program from birth.



Interesting... I only ask because BNP-1s die to 20mm SABOTs on the front armour.


Well, according to this: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/armor-comp.gif , an M2 Bradley should be protected from 30mm rounds, although the chart does not specify if the rounds are sabot/non-sabot. How large of a difference in penetration ability would a 20mm sabot round have over a 20mm non-sabot round?

I suppose at this point I'd also like to put something in the description that wasen't there originally: the PCE Mark I protects the operator with first a layer of titanium compostite, then cermamic composite, followed by a layer of compressed carbon synthetic diamond (http://www.e6.com/e6/page.jsp?pageid=600401040), followed by another layer of ceramic composite. I hadn't really thought out the armour too well until now. I've also altered the original post so that it says that the PCE Mark I can stop "multiple magazines of 7.62mm rounds before the exoskeleton is compromised". I think that'd be more consistant with the protection provided against 20mm rounds.


I see. Well the US military recons they spend $50,000 getting a basic GI from recruit to combat, so it should cut you back quite a bit. As for replacing IFVs... well not entirely. These certainly dont go at 50mph (at least they damn well shouldnt), and they can't tow artillery, ammo etc. not to mention that people just dont like marching for days on end.

The PCE Mark I does not allow the operator to run at 50mph. Although APCs and IFVs would still be in service in many of thier former duties, I still think atleast a minor reduction in thier numbers could take place. For example, infantry in PCE Mark Is could take the role that combined infantry/Bradley units previously took in urban environments.

I think we were a both a bit off the mark. According to here: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=336326 ...

So while they do not have genetically augmented strength or reflexes, a certain amount of genetic engineering does go into them and they undergo a military training program from birth.

Well I knew that, but it has no bearing on their combat performance... this is rather irrelevant anyway.

Well, according to this: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/armor-comp.gif , an M2 Bradley should be protected from 30mm rounds, although the chart does not specify if the rounds are sabot/non-sabot. How large of a difference in penetration ability would a 20mm sabot round have over a 20mm non-sabot round?

If you remember, I cited the BNP-1 (and possibly also the BNP-2, which is certainly vulnerable to 30mm even on the front) as an example, but the Bradley is vulnerable to 30mm everywhere but the front (even a lot of RL MBTs are relatively vulnerable on the rear). The sabot increases anti-armour performance quite significantly, but at the same time makes the weapon almost entirely useless against infantry (it's just a steel / tungsten dart).

I suppose at this point I'd also like to put something in the description that wasen't there originally: the PCE Mark I protects the operator with first a layer of titanium compostite, then cermamic composite, followed by a layer of compressed carbon synthetic diamond (http://www.e6.com/e6/page.jsp?pageid=600401040), followed by another layer of ceramic composite. I hadn't really thought out the armour too well until now. I've also altered the original post so that it says that the PCE Mark I can stop "multiple magazines of 7.62mm rounds before the exoskeleton is compromised". I think that'd be more consistant with the protection provided against 20mm rounds.

Yes that would probably be better... I would have thought that a 20mm sabot would *probably* penetrate this, and a 30mm almost certainly. Im aware of synthetic diamonds, but they tend not to be all that pure, unlike natural diamonds, and you cant really make them into sheets without compromising their structure, which is what provides gives them their strength.

The PCE Mark I does not allow the operator to run at 50mph. Although APCs and IFVs would still be in service in many of thier former duties, I still think atleast a minor reduction in thier numbers could take place. For example, infantry in PCE Mark Is could take the role that combined infantry/Bradley units previously took in urban environments.

I suppose IFVs might be phased out... although they are still nice to have around due to being able to carry a 20mm - 40mm cannon, several ATGWs and light SAMs... but APCs I'd say would have to stay, and you'd need to build more vehicles to transport the suits up and down while moving your army. Overall it will probably balance out.

Well I knew that, but it has no bearing on their combat performance... this is rather irrelevant anyway.


Fair enough. I was always under the impression that the AMF Sentinals were genetically enhanced for combat, but I guess I was mistaken. DA though, does use genetically engineered troops - do you know of any other nations that do?


If you remember, I cited the BNP-1 (and possibly also the BNP-2, which is certainly vulnerable to 30mm even on the front) as an example, but the Bradley is vulnerable to 30mm everywhere but the front (even a lot of RL MBTs are relatively vulnerable on the rear). The sabot increases anti-armour performance quite significantly, but at the same time makes the weapon almost entirely useless against infantry (it's just a steel / tungsten dart).


Very well, I'll modify my earlier statements.

- 20mm SABOT will likely puncture the armour of the PCE Mark I
- Non-SABOT rounds are likely to disable the PCE Mark I after 2-6 rounds

Does that sound more reasonable? You've been very helpful with this.


Yes that would probably be better... I would have thought that a 20mm sabot would *probably* penetrate this, and a 30mm almost certainly. Im aware of synthetic diamonds, but they tend not to be all that pure, unlike natural diamonds, and you cant really make them into sheets without compromising their structure, which is what provides gives them their strength.


I'll look into this more. I had assumed that the synthetics would hold up as well as the naturals, but I suppose that they might not.


I suppose IFVs might be phased out... although they are still nice to have around due to being able to carry a 20mm - 40mm cannon, several ATGWs and light SAMs... but APCs I'd say would have to stay, and you'd need to build more vehicles to transport the suits up and down while moving your army. Overall it will probably balance out.

Yes, I'll need a much larger logistics train as well to transport all those hydrogen fuel cells and spare parts for these units.

Well the synthetic diamonds might, and might be of some use... but they'll probably justbe pushed apart... I dont know, it might be worth it, even though even industrial diamonds are rather expensive to make. The rest looks much better now. It's still pretty much impervious to small arms fire, there isnt much you can do about RPGs and ATGWs, and these (I assume) aren't meant to be able to go toe-to-toe with a tank or IFV and always expect to win on their own, so it isnt much of a major disadvantage.

As for CM... well... he uses a lot of borderline godmod / godmod stuff, like the T-99W. I really dont accept GM troops (althougn AMF's I'd probably accept, as he doesnt claim to make his troops "uber" because of their modifications) as every single cloned creature of any kind ever made has proved inferior to the original. Not only that, but you need dozens of unsuccessful attempts for each successful attempt.

[Diamond of any kind does not make good armour, it is easily shattered under the forces cannon rounds exert simply because diamonds can be cleaved quite easily. It only takes a skilled person, a hammer, and a strong chisel at the right angle to break a diamond in half. On the other hand, a 120mm SABOT puts forth some 7 million joules of energy when it hits something solid, whith will brush aside a diamon like it would thin air.]

The system is powered by hydrogen fuel cells. In combat conditions, the PCE Mark I is expected to operate for 36 to 48 hours before running out of fuel and requiring replenishment, probably from a forward operating base. Do you think that 36-48 hours is too long of a time period?

As for the jumping, its simply a product of the strength enhancement provided by the exoskeletons. Pistons and servos assist the operator in jumping.
Way too long and you're not going to be able to fuel it with hydrogen. Consider... hydrogen, by volume, is one of the LEAST efficient fuels around. Even when pressured to 150 bar, the safe maximum for dangerous work, it takes about 22 litres of hydrogen to equal the energy of a litre of gasoline. And since hydrogen fuel cells will never be more than twice as efficent as gas, that means it'll take about 10 liters of hydrogen to equil the energy of a liter of gas.

Now, cryogenically cooling the hydrogen is a bit better, but still, you end up with four times as much hydrogen as gasoline. Assuiming maximum efficiency from the fuel cells, this means you need twice as much fuel by volume.

Add to that that a fuel cell capable of generating 1kw (enough to run a house at low load times) will be, optimistically, 1 meter long, you need to find a new fuel source.

Well the synthetic diamonds might, and might be of some use... but they'll probably justbe pushed apart... I dont know, it might be worth it, even though even industrial diamonds are rather expensive to make. The rest looks much better now. It's still pretty much impervious to small arms fire, there isnt much you can do about RPGs and ATGWs, and these (I assume) aren't meant to be able to go toe-to-toe with a tank or IFV and always expect to win on their own, so it isnt much of a major disadvantage.

As for CM... well... he uses a lot of borderline godmod / godmod stuff, like the T-99W. I really dont accept GM troops (althougn AMF's I'd probably accept, as he doesnt claim to make his troops "uber" because of their modifications) as every single cloned creature of any kind ever made has proved inferior to the original. Not only that, but you need dozens of unsuccessful attempts for each successful attempt.

Add in the fact that a tailored virus would knock them ALL out and it takes JUST as long to grow a clone as a regular human... yeah. Cloning is a BAD idea.

ooc: I use genetic engineering. However, i'm alot less wealthy than DA, so alot less work goes into each person. That, and I use lizardmen. Heheheh.

ooc: I use genetic engineering. However, i'm alot less wealthy than DA, so alot less work goes into each person. That, and I use lizardmen. Heheheh.
OOC: What do your genetically engineered soldiers do? I generally ignore those things...

ooc: well, faster reflexes, greater muscle/bone density, increased intelligence, stronger heart and lungs, better vision and hearing etc.

But at the minimum, it eliminates nasty things like bad immune systems, vision problems, allergies, cancers etc.

Way too long and you're not going to be able to fuel it with hydrogen. Consider... hydrogen, by volume, is one of the LEAST efficient fuels around. Even when pressured to 150 bar, the safe maximum for dangerous work, it takes about 22 litres of hydrogen to equal the energy of a litre of gasoline. And since hydrogen fuel cells will never be more than twice as efficent as gas, that means it'll take about 10 liters of hydrogen to equil the energy of a liter of gas.

Now, cryogenically cooling the hydrogen is a bit better, but still, you end up with four times as much hydrogen as gasoline. Assuiming maximum efficiency from the fuel cells, this means you need twice as much fuel by volume.

Add to that that a fuel cell capable of generating 1kw (enough to run a house at low load times) will be, optimistically, 1 meter long, you need to find a new fuel source.

What do you recommend? And what's your take on the compressed carbon synthetic diamond issue?

[Press Release - Colonial Department of Defense]



Today's modern world is one where conflict and war are commonplace, while the threat of invasion is ever present. The Mississpian Federation publically threatens the Democratic Colonies and knowingly plans for our destruction. The Mississpian Federation is rumored to utilize genetic enhancement technologies to create legions of superhuman soldiers bred for combat, while other nations like MassPwnage train children from birth to be soldiers, transforming an otherwise normal human being into a bloodthirsty killing machine. The Democratic Colonies has always relied on quality training and high technology to protect Colonial interests from those who threaten them. The Powered Exoskeleton Program is only the next evolutionary step in this ethos, and is believed by the Department of Defense to be the best counter-technology to genetic enhancement programs used by nations like Mississpi.


Ooc-

To be fair, we use genetic enhancement and training from about age 6-8 onwards.

Anyway, good stuff, good stuff. :)

ooc:
I thought AMF Sentinals were clones of Damien the Destroyer? And OOCly, DA's told me that many of his troops are genetically modified, although that's not supposed to be well known confirmed IC knowledge.



Ooc- Mostly the sons of nobles and upper middle class, are the ones modified, so they can serve in the elite RG, SRG, MSAAS, and other special units and serve to the utmost highest standard.

Ooc- Mostly the sons of nobles and upper middle class, are the ones modified, so they can serve in the elite RG, SRG, MSAAS, and other special units and serve to the utmost highest standard.

ooc:
Well, these modified humans and others like them are the ones that the Powered Combat Exoskeletons were built to defeat. The Democratic Colonies dosen't have the ability to make genetically modified troops, but can counter them in a different manner, with different strengths and weaknesses.

People tend to vastly overestimate the effectiveness of genetic engineering... m'father's involved in it actually, and he tends to go on screaming rants when people misinterpret what it can really do.

It's quite amusing. I enjoy setting him off.

In any case... Powerwise, you might want to limit endurance to, say, 2-3 hours and use a LNG fuel cell. You'll show up on IR sensors like anything, and there's a chance of explosion if the fuel tank is punctured, but on the other hand you can rig it to vent fuel out the arms as a short ranged flamethrower =)

You're also going to suffer from feedback problems... all the responces of the suit will be delayed slightly. They will be less agile, if stronger. I'd cut the jumping out all together because, even if they can jump, the things probably won't have the responciveness to land on their feet. Include a water resevoir, diaper, and all that good stuff in the description.

As for the armor... I've given it some thought. Anything larger than a small autocannon will rip it apart. No chance against RPGs and tank shells. I'd suggest a combination of spaced aluminium alloy plates and perhaps some ceramics. If you're expecting heavy action, it MIGHT be possible to add NERA to the breastplate, but I wouldn't count on it. I'd also only signifigantly armor the breastplate. You can armor the helmet too, but then I'd suggest more or less fixing it to the breastplate (so the weight isn;t on the soldier's shoulders) which would limit visibility. Arms and legs and back can be protected against 7.62 with relative ease, but joints will be vulnerable to damage.

If you make the changes I've outlined, I'd suggest using the powered armor in an assault/tank escorting mission, particularly in urban combat where the ability to take several assault rifle rounds and still return fire is vital. Escorting tanks they'll be useful because the upgraded sensor and communications packages I'm assuming your fitting them with (night vision and IR) will make it easier for them to spot hidden RPG teams, communicate with the armor, and resist the effects of the tank's ERA.

In fact, you might go one step further and design a tank specifically for close support with the suits, with seats on/in the back that allow the troopers to rest and refule while the tank is on the move.

In any case... Powerwise, you might want to limit endurance to, say, 2-3 hours and use a LNG fuel cell. You'll show up on IR sensors like anything, and there's a chance of explosion if the fuel tank is punctured, but on the other hand you can rig it to vent fuel out the arms as a short ranged flamethrower =)


What about these? http://www.newstarget.com/001540.html , http://www.uh.edu/admin/media/nr/2004/07july/072204fuelcells.html

"Thin film solid oxide fuel cells (SOFCs)". According to the press release by the University of Houston;

"the size equivalent of four sugar cubes would produce 80 watts – more than enough to operate a laptop computer, eliminating clunky batteries and giving you hours more juice in your laptop. By the same token, approximately two cans’ worth of soda would produce more than five kilowatts, enough to power a typical household."

I think that should give the exoskeletons battery life for atleast 36-28 hours if they're provided with a battery that weighs perhaps 100 or 200 pounds.


You're also going to suffer from feedback problems... all the responces of the suit will be delayed slightly. They will be less agile, if stronger. I'd cut the jumping out all together because, even if they can jump, the things probably won't have the responciveness to land on their feet. Include a water resevoir, diaper, and all that good stuff in the description.


I'm hoping that at some point during the development process, the problem of response time was solved. Superior computers and sensors, perhaps.


As for the armor... I've given it some thought. Anything larger than a small autocannon will rip it apart. No chance against RPGs and tank shells. I'd suggest a combination of spaced aluminium alloy plates and perhaps some ceramics. If you're expecting heavy action, it MIGHT be possible to add NERA to the breastplate, but I wouldn't count on it. I'd also only signifigantly armor the breastplate. You can armor the helmet too, but then I'd suggest more or less fixing it to the breastplate (so the weight isn;t on the soldier's shoulders) which would limit visibility. Arms and legs and back can be protected against 7.62 with relative ease, but joints will be vulnerable to damage.


An automatic 20mm cannon will destroy a PCE Mark I. Ditto for an RPG or tank shell. I'm still looking at the armour at this point, but I'd like to have the PCE Mark I able to absorb multiple magazines of 7.62mm to the chest, and perhaps one magazine to a joint and not being rendered totally combat ineffective. Sustained automatic .50 BMG caliber fire should disable a PCE Mark I in short order, after perhaps four to eight rounds. I think I'll add Osmium (http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/Os.html) (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20020406/fob2.asp) to the titanium composite in the armour. Should strengthen by quite alot.

I'll modify the nature of the armour as well, and remove the compressed carbon synthetic diamond layer. The new armour composition will be a layer of titanium osmium composite, followed by ceramic composite, followed by the titanium osmium again. How's that sound?

What they didn't tell you was that solid oxide fuel cells run at between 800-1000 degrees centagrade. (1500–1800°F). THings you walk by will catch fire. And 200 pounds (90 kgs) of hydrogen will provide some 36 00 kilowatt hours. halving that to take in the inefficencies of the fuel cell will net you 1800 kwh. Very cool.

But little of that is electricity. Most is heat.

So let's half it again. 900 kwh

Let's assume that the thing needs 10kws... this isn't a small household. so 90 hours of operation. Halve the mass. 100 pounds sounds resonable, no?

No. 100 pounds (45kgs) of oh hydrogen, at standard atmospheric pressure, occupies 14 444 liters.. That's 14 CUBIC METERS of gas.

If you use cutting edge fuel tanks pressurized to 700 atm, then you can cut that down to 22 litres. But the TANK is bulky. FInd another fuel, I suggest LNG, and cut down endurance time. Why do you need the suits to run so long anyway?

If you eliminate feedback problems, you move into futuretech. There HAS to be lag. The person inside moves a limb. The suit detects it. Calculates force, speed, direction. Powers up it's servo and mimics the action. These things take time. Not a lot of time, but enough time to ruin your balance. Real moderntech exoskeletons can move at 3 miles per hour, have difficulty negociating stairs, and are uncomfortable.


I have no informaiton on the armor package you're siuggesting. It' looks ok, but heavy and expencive. You probably want to end it with a layer of kevlar to catch any armor fragments that get knocked off.

What they didn't tell you was that solid oxide fuel cells run at between 800-1000 degrees centagrade. (1500–1800°F). THings you walk by will catch fire.


According to the University of Houston press release, "SOFCs, in general, operate at 900 to 1,000 degrees Celsius, a very high temperature that requires exotic structural materials and significant thermal insulation. However, the thin film solid oxide fuel cell has an operating temperature of 450 to 500 degrees Celsius, one half that of current SOFCs. This lower temperature is largely a result of the drastically decreased thickness of the electrolyte-working region of these thin film SOFCs and negates the need for exotic structural materials and extensive insulation. The lower temperature also eliminates the need for catalysts (known as reformers) for the fuel cell."

500 degrees Celcius should be coolable.


And 200 pounds (90 kgs) of hydrogen will provide some 36 00 kilowatt hours. halving that to take in the inefficencies of the fuel cell will net you 1800 kwh. Very cool.

But little of that is electricity. Most is heat.

So let's half it again. 900 kwh


The press release claims an efficiency of approximately 65 percent. Not too much of a gain, but it's something over the numbers you've given me.


Let's assume that the thing needs 10kws... this isn't a small household. so 90 hours of operation. Halve the mass. 100 pounds sounds resonable, no?

No. 100 pounds (45kgs) of oh hydrogen, at standard atmospheric pressure, occupies 14 444 liters.. That's 14 CUBIC METERS of gas.

If you use cutting edge fuel tanks pressurized to 700 atm, then you can cut that down to 22 litres. But the TANK is bulky. FInd another fuel, I suggest LNG, and cut down endurance time. Why do you need the suits to run so long anyway?


I need the units to operate for a reasonable time for any kind of military operations.

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood, but what I am confused about though, is why I would be carrying around large amounts of hydrogen - these are thin film solid oxide fuel cells. "Thin film SOFCs are one micron thick – the equivalent of about one-hundredth of a human hair." It's a solid state fuel cell, a series of single micron thick plates that can be stacked up to look like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/2004-06-08-SOFC-brennstoffzelle_034.jpg

I'm just confused over why I would be dragging around large quantities of hydrogen.


If you eliminate feedback problems, you move into futuretech. There HAS to be lag. The person inside moves a limb. The suit detects it. Calculates force, speed, direction. Powers up it's servo and mimics the action. These things take time. Not a lot of time, but enough time to ruin your balance. Real moderntech exoskeletons can move at 3 miles per hour, have difficulty negociating stairs, and are uncomfortable.


My nation is in the year 2015. So, from now to then, there's 10 years for processing power to improve. I think that's the main problem with exoskeletal lag - sensors and computers. 10 years of highly funded research (although my nation's been running the program for more then 10 years IC) should solve the problem of processing speed leading to lag.

As for "powering up the servo"? Well, this unit in real life: http://www.time.com/time/2003/inventions/invpowersuit.html uses air pressure to augment the users strength. Perhaps I could use a similar air pressure system to allow for instant action, eliminating the lag time while servos and pistons move as well.

Perhaps a refilling air charge can be integrated into each piston and servo. As the operator makes a motion that will utilize that servo or piston, the air charge detonates in a fashion similar to the detonation in a combustion engine chamber, forcing the piston or servo up, and allowing time for the normally powered action to occur without lag - in effect, the air charge would be a jumpstarter that worked for short periods right before the normal systems kick in.

Ah. Misconception. A fuel cell is a generator, not fuel storage. Fuel cells combine hydrogen with oxygen to make water and electricity. Reverse electrolysis.

My mistake, I didn't have accurate information on thin film fuel solid oxide fuel cells. I've corrected the mistake. And you would only need a reformer if you're using a hydrocarbon instead of hydrogen. However, the 65% is projected maximum efficiency... not what they're getting now.


And 500 degrees is still hotter than my oven goes. Adding cooling systems will be complicated and heavy, and where will you vent the heat? WHen you use a cooling system, the average temperature of the system actually goes UP, it's just local temperatures that go down. You need to shunt the heat somewhere.

No matter how advanced you are, the sensors still need to detect the movement, and the suit needs to respond. It will NOT do it instantly, there is always a little lag. Not much, just enough to be difficult. Keep the jumping if you want, but this thing is literally going to weigh a ton... if you can find a way to keep it from sinking into the ground when it lands, mazel tov.

Air pressure is worse than servos because it's compressable. There isn't an instant reaction. You squeeze, it compresses, then pushes out the other side. Hydrolics is gives you faster respoinces... but in both cases a bullet in the wrong place will sever a line and leave the soldier helpless.

As for endurance... people don't fight for two days nonstop. There's a bit of fighting, then a lull, a bit of fighting, and a lull. Two hours combat operations is more than enough time. On low intensity usage, that could probably be streached out into 8 hours, more than ANYONE is going to want to wear the suit.

Ah. Misconception. A fuel cell is a generator, not fuel storage. Fuel cells combine hydrogen with oxygen to make water and electricity. Reverse electrolysis.


Yes, a misconception on my part. I apologize.


And 500 degrees is still hotter than my oven goes. Adding cooling systems will be complicated and heavy, and where will you vent the heat? When you use a cooling system, the average temperature of the system actually goes UP, it's just local temperatures that go down. You need to shunt the heat somewhere.


How about this? Ultrahigh-Temperature Ceramics, like this (http://www.industrialheating.com/ih/cda/articleinformation/features/bnp__features__item/0,,116387,00+en-uss_01dbc.html) form an enclosing heat sink around the fuel cells. Heat is shunted up and out of the top of the backpack section of the exoskeleton.


No matter how advanced you are, the sensors still need to detect the movement, and the suit needs to respond. It will NOT do it instantly, there is always a little lag. Not much, just enough to be difficult. Keep the jumping if you want, but this thing is literally going to weigh a ton... if you can find a way to keep it from sinking into the ground when it lands, mazel tov.


Well, yes. I imagine that the system itself weighs in at around 300 pounds. Add 100-200 pounds for fuel cells/fuel. Add 300 pounds of combat gear. Total weight is 700-800 pounds. Not really advisable to go jumping around like a madman in something like the PCE Mark I.


Air pressure is worse than servos because it's compressable. There isn't an instant reaction. You squeeze, it compresses, then pushes out the other side. Hydrolics is gives you faster respoinces... but in both cases a bullet in the wrong place will sever a line and leave the soldier helpless.


Hydrolics then, if you believe them to be a better solution.


As for endurance... people don't fight for two days nonstop. There's a bit of fighting, then a lull, a bit of fighting, and a lull. Two hours combat operations is more than enough time. On low intensity usage, that could probably be streached out into 8 hours, more than ANYONE is going to want to wear the suit.

Yes, no one is going to engage in combat for 48 hours straight, but I need the units to last a while if they're going to be feasible for special operations use.

The ceramics are a must, I was sort of assuming you'd be using ceramics. They don't even need to be particlarly high temperature... but IR sensors and goggles will see you... the same way they'd see a truck. That, combined with the size, ungainliness, weight, and noise of the suits really precluides them from being used in special ops... Special ops people move fast and quiet, and travel for days. The suit seems more optimized for combined arms operations. Perhaps you could make a second, lighter version for scouts?

The ceramics are a must, I was sort of assuming you'd be using ceramics. They don't even need to be particlarly high temperature... but IR sensors and goggles will see you... the same way they'd see a truck. That, combined with the size, ungainliness, weight, and noise of the suits really precluides them from being used in special ops... Special ops people move fast and quiet, and travel for days. The suit seems more optimized for combined arms operations. Perhaps you could make a second, lighter version for scouts?

Mmm. Good reasoning.

I'll drop the operating time down to 8 hours. Does that sound more reasonable?

Much more reasonable. A nice wellrounded answer to RPG teams and machinegun nests. =) Well done.

Much more reasonable. A nice wellrounded answer to RPG teams and machinegun nests. =) Well done.

Thank you. You've been very helpful in the design of the PCE Mark I.

Hopefully, one day, men and women in these exoskeletons will patrol the streets of the Mississipian Federation as part of a liberating occupation force....

:)

How large of a difference in penetration ability would a 20mm sabot round have over a 20mm non-sabot round?

A lot. but anyways cool exoskeleton

Unless the osmium is an extremely small %age of the titanium osmium armor, ditch it. I've worked with the stuff in labs and there's a reason why you have to wear safety equipment / breathers. Besides, the stuff flakes easier than obsidian and is pretty damned expensive. Might as well go for iridium. :D

Overall it's an interesting exoskeleton design, though.

Ooga Booga3

What are you doing?

Trust me people this is all for uhhh....scientifical experimentation. If you reply to these you need to look at your life goals more carefully and see that there are better things to do than rank up 3500 posts typin long ass responses.

If you're going to spam, then make your own thread and do it there.

Grand Alliance - warned for spamming.

Democratic Colonies, I'm very sorry I didn't come across this sooner.

~ Tsar the Mod.

Grand Alliance - warned for spamming.

Democratic Colonies, I'm very sorry I didn't come across this sooner.

~ Tsar the Mod.

Mods can't be everywhere all the time, there is no need to apologize. If anything, I should thank you for your rapid response. I think an hour is pretty fast considering that it was the middle of the night in North America.

Unless the osmium is an extremely small %age of the titanium osmium armor, ditch it. I've worked with the stuff in labs and there's a reason why you have to wear safety equipment / breathers. Besides, the stuff flakes easier than obsidian and is pretty damned expensive. Might as well go for iridium. :D


I was thinking of the osmium making up around 5 percent of the titanium composite.