NationStates Jolt Archive

::: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE :::

In an announcement today that will change the face of Naval Warfare, the Nations of Mauiwowee and The Great Sixth Reich, in conjunction with W.M.D., Inc. unveiled the results of their top-secret, 15 year long, $20 Trillion Dollar research project on super-cavitating, undersea vessels.

"Run Silent, Run Deep, as a guiding principle in submarine warfare no longer has a place." said Mauiwowee Naval Commander and W.M.D., Inc. Chief of R & D, Dr. Supher Beaux. "The future of naval warfare is based on the idea of 'Run Fast, Run Deep."

Explaining further, Dr. Beaux stated:

"Cavitation is an old problem which has plagued ship designers for decades. It is caused by fast moving objects in water with sharp edges such as propellers spinning quickly and causing an actual change in the physical state of the water around them, leading to both damage and inefficiency. This happens because the faster a propeller spins, the lower the water pressure around it becomes. If this pressure falls fast enough, then the water reaches its ‘vapor pressure’, at which, like boiling water, it vaporizes and forms small bubbles of gas. Unlike bubbles caused by heat though, the bubbles are unstable, and implode violently when their pressure changes. This implosion can cause extensive damage to vessels, and to a submarine which still runs in a world of ‘run silent run deep’ this kind of implosion can cause potentially deadly noise and is what sonar operators are looking for when they attempt to track a submarine.

Supercavitation, rather than fighting the process of cavitation, exploits it to create a near frictionless environment for a craft to travel in. Instead of trying to avoid or minimize cavitation, it attempts to create a renewable large bubble, a ‘supercavitational bubble’ which is designed to totally envelope the craft and thus make it travel within the bubble of air. The breakthrough speed at which this occurs is 180 km/h, or some 110 mph or 100 knots. At this speed, with a correctly crafted nose, the pressure of the water at the tip of the vessel drops sharply, and starts to change the water coming into contact with it from its liquid form to its gaseous one. As this happens a bubble forms, extending back along and enveloping the craft. However, traveling in a bubble kills off all traditional marine propulsion techniques. Propellers spinning in air won't be much good after all. The only engines that will work are the same ones which power our ships to the stars and certain fighter aircraft - Rocket engines. Supercavitational craft as we have developed, are high speed, highly maneuverable rocket powered ships and fighters that travel under water.

Our new supercavitational craft have a nose with a specially designed ‘cavitator’ which extends the bubble and makes it stable. The size and length of the bubble is dependant on speed, but is increased, proportionately, by ‘ventilated supercavitation’. In ventilated supercavitation, air is pumped into the bubble to increase its size and ensure that it covers the entire supercavitating vessel. The Shkval, a super-cavitating torpedo invented by the Soviet Union in the 1970's for example, uses ventilated supercavitation by redirecting part of the exhaust gases from its rocket engines through outlets near the nose of the torpedo. Our new craft which we are unveiling to the world today use this technique as well.

While the principle of supercavitation has been known for decades and was used as early as the 1970's by the Soviets, the problem of guidance and control was an issue. Obviously, a craft traveling at hundreds of miles per hour, if it slammed through the bubble, would hit a wall of water and be crushed. This limit on manuverability was recognized by the soviets and their Shkval torpedo was designed as a "straight line" device. The bulk of our R & D efforts and the breakthrough that has allowed us to produce our new craft, involves finally solving this problem. Steering the craft itself is relatively easy, the problem lay in learning to "steer" the supercavitating bubble. We have accomplished this by using a combination of means.

First, the craft have fins, with cantalevering surfaces, that extend out of the supercavitational bubble. This causes some drag and friction, but not nearly the amount that is caused by having an entire craft in the water as is traditional. Secondly, the cavitator on the craft's front is designed to rotate in two planes as the craft manuevers vertically and horizontally to adjust the backwards projection of the bubble in a co-ordinated fashion with the craft's change in direction. Finally, using a principle well known in the jet aircraft and rocket industry, thrust vectoring with the exhaust gases from the engine and co-ordinated changes in the velocity and release of the gases used to superventilate the cavitational bubble are used to steer the craft and maintain the bubble's size and shape and adjust it to continually envelope the craft as it manuevers in the bubble. The different components of control are managed by a closed loop computer system that relies on various sensors which continually feed the computer guidance system information about the surrounding air and water pressure and turbulence factors, exhuast gas venting pressures and operator input as to the direction of travel desired. The result is a highly manuverable and incredibly fast, by ocean going craft standards, ship.

The new undersea carriers we have introducing today can travel a speed of 8-900 mph, under water, using their hydro-aluminum burning rocket engines and carry up to 75 sub-jet fighters or transport ships. The various fighters we are unveiling travel at speeds up to Mach 2.25. The carrier has a range of 75,000 miles before it must refuel and the fighters have a range of 2,000 to 3,000 miles depending on the model. One aspect that is important to remember also is that the "sub-fighters" or "sub-jets" as we call them, are designed to "fly" in a supercavitational bubble, a bubble of air, making it possible, therefore, for the design of a fighter that can travel not only under water, but can also fly like convential aircraft in the atmosphere. Obviously, conventional missiles such as Javelins and ANRAMs will not function under water, but they can be placed on the craft if is is intending to launch into the atmosphere to do its job. If the battle is to remain under the sea, then the craft must be fitted with supercavitating weapons as well.

In that light, we have developed 3 classes of torpedos and missiles for use. The primary torpedo is based on the original design of the Soviet Shkval torperdo, but uses an onboard computers and thrust vectoring, along with fins that project out of the bubble, to steer with, and has a range of roughly 150 miles and travels as fast as Mach 2.5. These are the primary weapons of the Carriers. The primary missiles which are loaded on the sub-jets for underwater use use basically the same principle, but are designed to fly at speeds up to Mach 4.5 in their supercavitational bubble and have a range of up to 350 miles. Work on what amounts to a gatling gun that fires supercavitational bullets is underway as we speak and we anticipate having a functional model available for production and mounting on the craft within in the next year.

In the press kit we are handing out today, are various photos of the various sub-jets and the carrier as well as information about the weapons. Please note also that all the technology involved in this development is proprietary to Mauiwowee, W.M.D., Inc. and The Great Sixth Reich. Detailed specs and design parameters are not for sale to any nation and neither are the craft themselves. This information is being made available to the world so that they might have a clear understanding of what they are dealing with should they attempt to engage Mauiwowee or The Great Sixth Reich in naval combat.

Finally, just for those who are curious, as noted the cost for development of these craft was over $20 Trillion during the course of a 15 year long R & D effort. Cost for production of the final craft being unveiled today are as follows:

Carrier - $750 Billion
Fighters - $40 Billion (averaged cost per fighter)
Transports - $15 Billion

Maintenance/Upkeep - Carrier, $100 million/year. Fighters & Transports, $10 million/year

Totals - One carrier with 75 sub-jets and transports - $4.75 Trillion with annual maintenance and upkeep costs of $850 million/year

Due to the high costs involved in production as well as maintenance of the craft, only 2 carriers, 160 sub-jet fighters and 40 transports have been manufactured at this time. Both Mauiwowee and The Great Sixth Reich have a carrier, 80 sub-jets and 20 transport ships each. Due to the extreme cost and manufacturing difficulties, it is likely to be many years before either nation is able to deploy another carrier."

*******************************************************

OOC: For those who doubt the viability or feasibility of what is described here, please see, among other information that is available:

http://www.diodon349.com/Kursk-Memorial/Warpdrive_underwater.htm

http://cav2001.library.caltech.edu/53/00/CAV2001-sessionB3-003.pdf

http://128.227.42.147/ag/anukul_pub/thesis.pdf

http://www.deepangel.com/html/supercavitation.html


Pictures reproduced below are © their various owners, in particular www.deepangel.com. I do not claim to have created them myself, but for RP purposes on NS, I do claim them to be my and The Great Sixth Reich's craft and object to their use by other nations - Go find your own!

Mauiwowee SuperCavitating Carrier - H.M.S. Tsunami


http://img146.exs.cx/img146/9909/carrier34pf.jpg

H.M.S. Tsunami - Surfaced

http://img146.exs.cx/img146/9641/carrier40yr.jpg

http://img146.exs.cx/img146/9592/carriersurfaced9dy.jpg

H.M.S. Tsusnami Supercavitating

http://img128.exs.cx/img128/1225/carrier15xh.jpg

http://img146.exs.cx/img146/6277/carrier24zj.jpg

Razor Model Sub-Jet Fighter

http://img146.exs.cx/img146/9370/firebladesubfighter2jh.jpg

http://img146.exs.cx/img146/9369/firebladesubfighterrearview5yy.jpg

http://img146.exs.cx/img146/7861/firebladesubfighterrearview27n.jpg

Shark Model Sub-Jet Fighter

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/5923/hurricanesubfighter31tm.jpg

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/3562/hurricanesubfighter43le.jpg

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/8307/hurricanesubfighterlaunchesmis.jpg

http://img130.exs.cx/img130/5097/churricane26dv.jpg

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/7940/hurricanesubfighter5qj.jpg

Swordfish Model Sub-Jet Fighter

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/3192/stormriderairseasubfighter24pu.jpg


http://img124.exs.cx/img124/7802/stormriderairseasubfighter3ae.jpg

Barracuda Model Sub-jet Fighter

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/5675/vipersubfighter3we.jpg

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/1210/vipersubfighter26wb.jpg

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/4728/vipersubfightersrear5cx.jpg

Super-cavitating Transport Ship

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/9049/transportship1mq.jpg

Cut-away view of missile/torpedo prototypes

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/4294/torpedo3cutaway1zm.jpg

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/5432/torpedo2cutaway1xa.jpg

Supercavitating Weapons as deployed

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/6202/torpedo16jo.jpg

http://img134.exs.cx/img134/7567/torpedo47ko.jpg

http://img134.exs.cx/img134/4184/torpedo51ru.jpg

*jaw drops

OOC: Oh, my god. Will this ever be for sale?? I need one! Or two.

OOC: Oh, my god. Will this ever be for sale?? I need one! Or two.

At present they are not for sale, however, we'd be willing to take you on a sea cruise :)

Same for you RevertRomance

OOC: Sea cruise? Nice... don't tell me you made those pics. I'd have to make another shrine in my closet.

OOC: Sea cruise? Nice... don't tell me you made those pics. I'd have to make another shrine in my closet.

No need to make a shrine - see the very end of the first post, the pictures came, primarily, from deepangel.com, I just edited some of them a little.

OOC: Thank God. ;)

Wow, just wow...

Damn, I was going to try something like this too...

You wouldn't consider it copying of some sort of I was to attempt something like this would you?

Although, I do have a thought. Just how are they powered underwater and in the air? I doub't that you can use jet engines underwater.

Wow, just wow...

Damn, I was going to try something like this too...

You wouldn't consider it copying of some sort of I was to attempt something like this would you?

Although, I do have a thought. Just how are they powered underwater and in the air? I doub't that you can use jet engines underwater.

The Swordfish and Shark models are the only ones that have air/sea dual capabilities. However, all fighters are powered by rocket engines to reach supercavitational speed with fuel being supplied as liquid hydrogen and oxygen synthensized from sea water about the carrier. Once at supercavitational speed though, they are, in effect, flying in the air and traditional jet engines will function, even underwater. Once the supercavity has been created, the rocket cuts out and the traditional jet engine takes over, fueled by conventional jet fuel. As long as the proper speed is maintained, the supercavity will continue to exist and the jet engines will function. Once they drop out of full cavitational speed though (750 mph to just under Mach 1, depending on the model), the rocket engine is required again. Obviously, carrying fuel for the jet engines and the rocket engine is a limiting factor and the sub-jets are designed to carry enough rocket fuel for only 3 (max) "burns" of about 20-30 seconds in duration.

Since the technology is known in RL today and is being researched in RL today, if you RP'd your own development of supercavitating craft and came up with your own pictures, without reliance on deepangel.com material, I don't think I could say you were copying. Just be realistic about costs, how you solve the control issues, etc. As noted, they are god awful expensive to build and maintain and I've worked on this post and getting the pictures ready, off and on, for over a week.

Rockets, but this thing will only have a very short time initial boost and then be gone. While a regular fighter does carry it's own fuel, jet engines are far more efficent than rocket ones that must also carry their own oxygen. The fighters chould only hold enough propleant to this thing to burn for 1-2 minutes, maybe less.

The Swordfish and Shark models are the only ones that have air/sea dual capabilities. They all use liquid hydrogen (sythesized on board the carrier from surrounding sea water) as fuel and are powered by rocket engines, not traditional jet engines, when underwater. When they emerge into the atmosphere, the rocket engines are cut out and jet engines take over.

Since the technology is known in RL today and is being researched in RL today, if you RP'd your own development of supercavitating craft and came up with your own pictures, without reliance on deepangel.com material, I don't think I could say you were copying. Just be realistic about costs, how you solve the control issues, etc. As noted, they are god awful expensive to build and maintain and I've worked on this post and getting the pictures ready, off and on, for over a week.

Seeing as these things must carry fuel for both air and sea travel, it turns out that these things have even worse range.

OOC: Neato......

Rockets, but this thing will only have a very short time initial boost and then be gone. While a regular fighter does carry it's own fuel, jet engines are far more efficent than rocket ones that must also carry their own oxygen. The fighters chould only hold enough propleant to this thing to burn for 1-2 minutes, maybe less.

Seeing as these things must carry fuel for both air and sea travel, it turns out that these things have even worse range.

OOC:This issue has been clarified and explained, see below. The quote of mine as originally written and appearing in your post is erronous (my fault) but has been edited and corrected as below.

The Swordfish and Shark models are the only ones that have air/sea dual capabilities. However, all fighters are powered by rocket engines to reach supercavitational speed with fuel being supplied as liquid hydrogen and oxygen synthensized from sea water about the carrier. Once at supercavitational speed though, they are, in effect, flying in the air and traditional jet engines will function, even underwater. Once the supercavity has been created, the rocket cuts out and the traditional jet engine takes over, fueled by conventional jet fuel. As long as the proper speed is maintained, the supercavity will continue to exist and the jet engines will function. Once they drop out of full cavitational speed though (750 mph to just under Mach 1, depending on the model), the rocket engine is required again. Obviously, carrying fuel for the jet engines and the rocket engine is a limiting factor and the sub-jets are designed to carry enough rocket fuel for only 3 (max) "burns" of about 20-30 seconds in duration.

2 things

First, wouldn't the hot air coming from the rocket and conventonal engines make the bubble bigger, thus making it unstable. This is just a thought.

And second, this thing will go only in a straight line underwater or have a very short range. When the thing tries to turn, it will slow down. And because you have only 3 burns, you would eat up your gas pretty quickly.

ooc:

WOW on the piccies and the concept anyway

UNFORTUNATELY 750 billion is way outside my defence budget (being close to my ENTIRE defence budget) so its unlikely I'll be able to afford one for some time.

but when I do get to a meaty enough population, I'll tax the bejuices out of them to get some!!!!

2 things

First, wouldn't the hot air coming from the rocket and conventonal engines make the bubble bigger, thus making it unstable. This is just a thought.

And second, this thing will go only in a straight line underwater or have a very short range. When the thing tries to turn, it will slow down. And because you have only 3 burns, you would eat up your gas pretty quickly.

1. Yes & No, That is an issue that is being dealt with in RL development of the technology. However, recall that at the "tail end" of the bubble, gases are being "returned to the water" as the bubble "collapses." Also, note, I RP'd that the craft's sensors monitor air turbulence and adjust the vectoring of exhausts and the alignment of the cavitational surface on the front of the craft as well as cantalevers on the fins that extrude out of the bubble into the water. This was done partially in recognition of this issue. Also, to a point, the larger the bubble, the better. Once, however, it becomes so large the fins of the craft don't extrude from the bubble into the surrounding water, the ability to "steer" the bubble will be lost and the craft would "smash" into a wall of water the first time it attempted to change course.

2. This is partially explained above. In more detail though, just as a jet plane's loss in velocity is minimal in a course change, so are the sub jet's. As long as the speed is kept constantly above the supercavitational requirements and the cavitator on the front of the craft, the fins and cantalevers are properly adjusted, the bubble will "turn" with the craft and additional "burns" won't be needed. I would agree, however, that "turning on a dime" manuervability would not be possible underwater. For RP purposes, I'd say manueverability due to the need of keeping everything aligned, would be only at about 50-60% max of convential jet aircraft, depending on speeds involved.

There would still be friction. You would be lucky if you got 100nm out of this thing.

There woudl still be friction. You would be lucky if you got 100nm out of this thing.

which thing? one of the fighters or the carrier?

bump for discussion

Thanks to those who will at least take the ideas expressed under advisement.

The Swordfish and Shark models are the only ones that have air/sea dual capabilities. However, all fighters are powered by rocket engines to reach supercavitational speed with fuel being supplied as liquid hydrogen and oxygen synthensized from sea water about the carrier. Once at supercavitational speed though, they are, in effect, flying in the air and traditional jet engines will function, even underwater. Once the supercavity has been created, the rocket cuts out and the traditional jet engine takes over, fueled by conventional jet fuel. As long as the proper speed is maintained, the supercavity will continue to exist and the jet engines will function. Once they drop out of full cavitational speed though (750 mph to just under Mach 1, depending on the model), the rocket engine is required again. Obviously, carrying fuel for the jet engines and the rocket engine is a limiting factor and the sub-jets are designed to carry enough rocket fuel for only 3 (max) "burns" of about 20-30 seconds in duration.

Since the technology is known in RL today and is being researched in RL today, if you RP'd your own development of supercavitating craft and came up with your own pictures, without reliance on deepangel.com material, I don't think I could say you were copying. Just be realistic about costs, how you solve the control issues, etc. As noted, they are god awful expensive to build and maintain and I've worked on this post and getting the pictures ready, off and on, for over a week.

So the fighter carries the nessasary gases to create this bubble, which are created by the Carrier from the surrounding sea water, and jet enginges take over once the speed needed for cavitation has been reached. The engines use the gases that are creating this bubble to operate, in effect the fighter carries with it the gases normally taken from the atmosphere needed for the jet engine to work, on board?

Just a few random thoughts:

A possible problem I see is that these ships would have to surface relatively slowly. Since they are going so fast, if they were to surface conventionally there would be massive damage to the machinery and equipment from the change in pressure and related issues.

Also, if trying to enter the water from the air, they would likely be destroyed by the impact, and it is also possible they would skip across the surface of the water before either being forced to pull up or be destroyed.

I need to look through my physics testbooks again, but I have a feeling there would also be issues on the stability of the designs. Not entirely sure, though.

So the fighter carries the nessasary gases to create this bubble, which are created by the Carrier from the surrounding sea water, and jet enginges take over once the speed needed for cavitation has been reached. The engines use the gases that are creating this bubble to operate, in effect the fighter carries with it the gases normally taken from the atmosphere needed for the jet engine to work, on board?

Sorry, I guess I haven't explained this very well.

1. The gases needed to "create the bubble" are not carried by any of the craft. That is the point of supercavitation. By hitting a certain speed, the gases to create the bubble are generated by water reaching it's vapor point. The water surrounding the craft, as the craft moves through it, is vaporized, creating a gaeous bubble that surrounds the craft. Vaporization of the water begins at about 110 mph.

2. The fighters have 3 fuel tanks, one filled with hydrogen and one with oxygen which are synthesized by the carrier from sea water and are then loaded into the tanks of the fighters. These provide the fuel for the fighter's rocket engine which is used for the initial launch of a fighter so it can attain supercavitational speed in a rapid manner and is also availble under the 3 "burn" limit should the fighter stop or lose supercavitational speed for some reason.

3. The 3rd fuel tank on a fighter carries regular jet fuel. Once the fighter has reached supercavitational speed and the fighter is surrounded by an air filled bubble, the rocket cuts out and the jet engines cut in and use the air of the bubble in the same way normal air is used to ignite and burn jet fuel in convential aircraft.

Does that answer your question? I'll try again if not.

Just a few random thoughts:

A possible problem I see is that these ships would have to surface relatively slowly. Since they are going so fast, if they were to surface conventionally there would be massive damage to the machinery and equipment from the change in pressure and related issues.

Also, if trying to enter the water from the air, they would likely be destroyed by the impact, and it is also possible they would skip across the surface of the water before either being forced to pull up or be destroyed.

I need to look through my physics testbooks again, but I have a feeling there would also be issues on the stability of the designs. Not entirely sure, though.

1. No, since they are traveling in air already when they are in the cavitational bubble, the issue of pressure is negligible, like going from sea level to the top of a high mountain as convential aircraft do with no problem. Just regulate air pressure like regular planes do and gain altitude normally and all is well. You may need to "angle" up and instead of due a straight "pull up" to enter the atmosphere in order to adjust air pressure, but otherwise this is not a significant issue.

2. Agreed completely. It is one thing to be in a cavitational bubble and exit the water and to not be in such a bubble and "hit" the water. Leaving the water is no big deal. Re-entry would be and is not claimed as a capability of the craft. Once airborne, they cannot get back on the carrier unless they are loaded when the carrier is surfaced. (An RP limit some might need to consider).

Wow, my entire navy is made up of submarines and this is extremely intersting. Can you please tell me the tech range of this?

The last post set me to thinking about something that was not really discussed well in my research into supercavitation, that being pressure, so I'll discuss it now in terms that my non-engineering and non-physics geared mind can accept and that makes sense to me. Tell me where I'm wrong though. Reasonable critism is more than acceptable.

In a convential sub, air pressure in the sub must equal or exceed water pressure outside the sub or the sub will be crushed by the water. Water pressure, clearly, rises the deeper the sub goes as well.

In a supercavitational craft, the air pressure in the supercavitational "bubble" must also equal or exceed outside water pressure or the bubble will collapse (i.e. as described in the original post, the bubble will 'implode'). Obviously, should a supercavitational bubble implode, the craft in the bubble will be destroyed. The size and air pressure in the supercavitational bubble is (logically it would seem) a function of how fast the craft is traveling vs. how deep in the water the craft is. The deeper it is, the faster it must go in order to keep the 'bubble' at the optimum size. There will come a point, however, where the craft cannot travel fast enough to maintain a bubble and it will be destroyed. Maintaining a particular speed will cause the supercavitational bubble to contract/shrink as the craft goes deeper into the water. Conversly, the lesser the depth, the larger the bubble would be.

Therefore, the craft will be faster at lower depths and slower at "higher" ones so as to keep the bubble at the proper size. As noted above, if the bubble is too big, the craft will lose the ability to "steer" it and the first time the craft executes a manuever, it will hit a wall of water and be crushed.

Again, I'm no physisist, but for RP purposes, I'll say that the carrier cannot descent lower than 300 ft below sea level or it won't be able to maintain a proper bubble. The bubble will shrink to a size that is too small for the carrier.

As to the fighters, at just below sea level (say 35 feet or so) their speed is going to be limited to 700 mph, just enough to get them airborne if they exit the water, otherwise their bubble gets too big for them to control it and steer. On the other hand, at 750 feet, they must travel at full speed (Mach 2.25) or risk having the bubble collapse and they be crushed.

This results in the fighters being most optimal for undersea use at a depth of about 400 feet and "cruising" at a speed of about Mach 1.75.

Sound reasonable?

Wow, my entire navy is made up of submarines and this is extremely intersting. Can you please tell me the tech range of this?

According to my primary sources, the Tech Level for this, at current expenditures and research, is about 2078 - 2100. With proper funding and research in NS to speed things up, I'd say 2025 to 2050 is a reasonable range. Note the cost though.

Alright, I was guessing it would be far from my range (2010-ish), but still, a very good concept.

OOC: Suffice to say that manned supercav vehicles =/= MT.

Supercav torpedoes = MT.

OOC: Suffice to say that manned supercav vehicles =/= MT.

Supercav torpedoes = MT.

Yeah, but the manned ones are coming. All we gotta do is live long enough and get the powers that be to put enough $$$ into the R & D effort. :)

Alright, I was guessing it would be far from my range (2010-ish), but still, a very good concept.

Thank you.

Concept with hard science to back it up counts for a great deal to me, I think this fills the bill.

Sorry, I guess I haven't explained this very well.

1. The gases needed to "create the bubble" are not carried by any of the craft. That is the point of supercavitation. By hitting a certain speed, the gases to create the bubble are generated by water reaching it's vapor point. The water surrounding the craft, as the craft moves through it, is vaporized, creating a gaeous bubble that surrounds the craft. Vaporization of the water begins at about 110 mph.

2. The fighters have 3 fuel tanks, one filled with hydrogen and one with oxygen which are synthesized by the carrier from sea water and are then loaded into the tanks of the fighters. These provide the fuel for the fighter's rocket engine which is used for the initial launch of a fighter so it can attain supercavitational speed in a rapid manner and is also availble under the 3 "burn" limit should the fighter stop or lose supercavitational speed for some reason.

3. The 3rd fuel tank on a fighter carries regular jet fuel. Once the fighter has reached supercavitational speed and the fighter is surrounded by an air filled bubble, the rocket cuts out and the jet engines cut in and use the air of the bubble in the same way normal air is used to ignite and burn jet fuel in convential aircraft.

Does that answer your question? I'll try again if not.

Yes but the jet fuel requires oxygen to work, and water vapor just won't do it will it?

I'm not too sure that I was too clear with my question either, sorry.

Yes but the jet fule requires oxygen to work, and water vapor just won't do it will it.

Yes it will, at supercavitational speed, there is gas bubble around the craft, composed primarily of hydrogen and oxyen being vaporized out of the water. It would be like being in a light fog. Your match/lighter will still strike and your cigarette still burn. It is a bubble of gas/air, the fuel will burn. That is the whole idea and concept. If this were not true the existing soviet torpedos would not work either.

Yes it will, at supercavitational speed, there is gas bubble around the craft, composed primarily of hydrogen and oxyen being vaporized out of the water. It would be like being in a light fog. Your match/lighter will still strike and your cigarette still burn. It is a bubble of gas/air, the fuel will burn. That is the whole idea and concept. If this were not true the existing soviet torpedos would not work either.

Ah but they use a rocket motor and not an airbreathing don't they?
I didn't know that high heat would seperate the hydrogen and oxygen, but meh, oh well. Or is that not nesassary for a jet engine to work?

But I see what you mean, you've explained to me what I asked, thank you.

bump

Bump

Well, you've addressed the last of my issues, so it looks good. I guess I have to send ninjas in to steal the plans, now ...

Well, you've addressed the last of my issues, so it looks good. I guess I have to send ninjas in to steal the plans, now ...

LOL

Yeah, but the manned ones are coming. All we gotta do is live long enough and get the powers that be to put enough $$$ into the R & D effort. :)

True. The main problem I see with MT supercav torps going past Mach 1 is that the sonic boom will cause the semi-vacuum cavity to collapse, meaning that the whole point of supercavitation, having a projectile move through air, is worthless.

True. The main problem I see with MT supercav torps going past Mach 1 is that the sonic boom will cause the semi-vacuum cavity to collapse, meaning that the whole point of supercavitation, having a projectile move through air, is worthless.

curious, why would it collapse as the result of a sonic boom?

An underwater sonic boom. Now that would be interesting. Sound travels faster in water, too ...

An underwater sonic boom. Now that would be interesting. Sound travels faster in water, too ...

Well, they're not supposed be quiet, remember, "run silent" is a thing of the past with these ships. I'm gonna check out the sonic boom collapsing the bubble though. Off the top of my head I don't see how it would, but . . .

Since sound travels five times faster underwater, sonic booms wouldn't even occur until the equivalent of Mach 5. However, underwater Mach becomes rather irrelevant, doesn't it? The whole system changes.

Assuming they could even create a "sonic boom" in a supercavitational bubble, the pressure generated by such is only about 21 pound/sq. ft. about the same change in air pressure you experience riding in a elevator from the ground floor to around the 15th or so, no big deal. If it occurred in the water itself, it wouldn't affect anything since the ship is not in the water, it's inside the bubble and the boom occured outside the bubble. There would be just a shock wave eminating from the bubble itself into the surrounding water, and as noted, you'd have to be going Mach 5 or so to cause a sonic boom in the water itself. I think this is a non-issue.

Comments?

Well, it all sounds good to me. I had a friend who was questioning just how much of an advantage such capabilities this supercavitation provides, like fighters that can dive into the water, and fly out as well. I thought it was a question best left answered by the person who's given this the most thought, you. Well?

EDIT: It might be helpful to know that he mentioned the ability of conventional forces to atttack these things, despite all of their cool abilities. Just to note, he did think that it was intersting

Well, it all sounds good to me. I had a friend who was questioning just how much of an advantage such capabilities this supercavitation provides, like fighters that can dive into the water, and fly out as well. I thought it was a question best left answered by the person who's given this the most thought, you. Well?

EDIT: It might be helpful to know that he mentioned the ability of conventional forces to atttack these things, despite all of their cool abilities. Just to note, he did think that it was intersting

OOC: how about a quick RP example:

:: Ping ::

On board the aircraft carrier Slutpuppy

"Captain, sonar has picked up a sub at about 1,000 miles out"

"OK, ready depth charges, commence evasives"

:: Ping ::

Captain, you're not gonna believe this, but the ship is at 1,000 yards and - holy hell, incomming, we've got torpedoes, 2 of them at :::BLAM:::


It would be that fast - if the sub-jets were airborne, the combat would be just as convential air war is waged. However, a sub traveling at Mach 1.5, 400 feet down could take out a convential ship before it had time to think and depth charges? They would laugh. The sub-jet would be in and out with torpedoes away before the convential ships could do anything.

Convential forces couldn't do crap to stop them under the water, by the time the fastest convential torpedo reached it's target, it would be gone, assuming some sort of killer homing mechanism, the supercavitating craft would easily outrun the convential torpedo leaving it in its wake. Again, above water, convential warfare, no difference. Underwater, these craft would rule the seas if their only opposition was convential craft and weapons.

Nice. I'll be sure to make sure he sees this.

Mt own thought on this:
-Slutpuppy?... alright then.
-I don't know many who still use depth charges, but If I were to use MT supercavitating torpedoes, maybe modified to match your speeds. Would that stand a chance underwater?
-Airwar is still conventional, good, then I don't really have to worry about this that much.

i think the conventional anti sub weapons are depth charges, torpedoes (ship, fighter and helicopter launched) and those with cash, subroc (mainly US allies).

depth charges are basically hit and miss and your baby would be out of the way too fast, unless you had a canny comanding officer on board the A/s ship and a retard on board you sub.

torpedoes used today rarely go faster than 30 to 40 knots, again your ship could out run them unless it was point blank range (really with a vessel like this youd stand off and let your aqua fighters clean out the rubbish). and again your commanding officer had donkey droppings for brains (ie a nimitz class carriers wouldn't engage an enemy warship, it would lets its fighters do the talking).

and subroc, don't know the performance specs of that but its at least 15 to 20 year old technology and designed for conventional subs.

I think about the only weapon that could take out your ships is the proposed torpedo defence mechasm using metalstorm technology, aside from that, short of lobbing a tactical nuke and vapourising a few gigalitres of water and triggering off local tsunami's you'd have to be lucky to clean up one of these babies.

realistically you'd do what they did during ww2 and try and hit them when theya re in port, and not actively on duty.

i think the conventional anti sub weapons are depth charges, torpedoes (ship, fighter and helicopter launched) and those with cash, subroc (mainly US allies).

depth charges are basically hit and miss and your baby would be out of the way too fast, unless you had a canny comanding officer on board the A/s ship and a retard on board you sub.

torpedoes used today rarely go faster than 30 to 40 knots, again your ship could out run them unless it was point blank range (really with a vessel like this youd stand off and let your aqua fighters clean out the rubbish). and again your commanding officer had donkey droppings for brains (ie a nimitz class carriers wouldn't engage an enemy warship, it would lets its fighters do the talking).

and subroc, don't know the performance specs of that but its at least 15 to 20 year old technology and designed for conventional subs.

I think about the only weapon that could take out your ships is the proposed torpedo defence mechasm using metalstorm technology, aside from that, short of lobbing a tactical nuke and vapourising a few gigalitres of water and triggering off local tsunami's you'd have to be lucky to clean up one of these babies.

realistically you'd do what they did during ww2 and try and hit them when theya re in port, and not actively on duty.

Exactly, Though if you could figure a way to enhance the speed of a soviet shkval torpedo to meet ship's speed and enhnace it's guidance and manuverability, you'd have a chance of doing something - that is, if your convential ship could get close enough to launch it and my ship still be in range of the torpedo. The whole idea though is to give me an advantage in the oceans, though one carrier and her fighters isn't going to make it possible for me to completely control the sea - it's just too big, no matter how good my ships are, and they are too expensive for me to just "crank them out willy-nilly" - OOC: I'm avoiding a god-mod/numbers wanking claim and trying to be realistic with the possibility that I have the technology to do this.

One more bump for comments. - I'd like to here Sarzonia's as the owner of the Portland Iron Works Naval Yards in particular.

wow I like them. A little expensive dont you think.

wow I like them. A little expensive dont you think.

Possibly, but the sophistication of the manufacturing process coupled with the sophisticated design and control stuff needed to make them function would be much more than that of your average ships and planes. The DeepAngel web site that gave me the idea lists the cost of the carrier in the year 2078 at 450 Billion. "compressing time" to bring it down to the 2025 or so time frame, is going to increase the costs alot.

OOC: plus with the cost this high I avoid claims of number wanking and god modding since it limits, severely, how many functional craft I can have.

OOC:yah i agree but seriously have you even sold anything yet. as long as you keep the price in the billions it would not be considered number wanking and god modding. I would recomend a price of about 40 bil of less for a carrier and 10 or less for a fighter. With my design of Atlantis offshore base the price is $50 billion and the rest of my store front and I have not been accused of number wanking and god modding and I have sold almost 4 trillion between The Tokera store front and The Tokera package store front. I would highly suggest a price change. But it is your choice. I see quite a bit of people that would like to buy some of your products but cant afford it. Even with my defence budget at $750 billion I could only afford about one of your carriers.

OOC: I can't believe it took someone 18 months to come up with this. Nice to see someone else using the Angelus, or the Nightingale class as I call them. Use 'em responsibly, or I might send the Monitor and her battlegroup after you. And that you won't like.

There are quite a few ways to take out a super-cavitating vessel, and believe it or not, depth charges are one of them. Since a super-cavitating entity cannot, by it's very nature, slow down or turn quickly, any half decent ASW Captain would allow for the speed of the craft, and simply bracket it with depth charges / ASW mortars. The disruptions would cause the bubble to falter/collapse, and bye-bye mister sub-fighter.

I believe when I developed this, it took more than 6 RL weeks to design and build just two of them. Don't go overboard, remember that they are seriously expensive vessels, so don't create hundreds of them. My post-modern self has ten SCBGs (Super-cavitating Carrier Battle Groups), totalling around a hundred-fifty vessels, and that consumes most of my defense budget of more than 20 trillion dollars.

Oh, and one last thing, the cost is spot on. They WILL cost that much to produce, since they are the most complex designs ever created by mankind.

Yes it will, at supercavitational speed, there is gas bubble around the craft, composed primarily of hydrogen and oxyen being vaporized out of the water. It would be like being in a light fog. Your match/lighter will still strike and your cigarette still burn. It is a bubble of gas/air, the fuel will burn. That is the whole idea and concept. If this were not true the existing soviet torpedos would not work either.

No. It's vaporized water, not hydrogen and oxygen. Water doesn't break down when it's vaporized any more than boiling water creates hydrogen and oxygen. You'll need to carry onboard oxygen with you and use it as a rocket... bulky...

And the Shkval is rocket propelled, not jet, has a max speed of 250mph, and an extremely limited range. Still... if you can find a way around the no oxygen problem... it would be decent for a 2025 vehicle.

OOC:yah i agree but seriously have you even sold anything yet. as long as you keep the price in the billions it would not be considered number wanking and god modding. I would recomend a price of about 40 bil of less for a carrier and 10 or less for a fighter. With my design of Atlantis offshore base the price is $50 billion and the rest of my store front and I have not been accused of number wanking and god modding and I have sold almost 4 trillion between The Tokera store front and The Tokera package store front. I would highly suggest a price change. But it is your choice. I see quite a bit of people that would like to buy some of your products but cant afford it. Even with my defence budget at $750 billion I could only afford about one of your carriers.

Read the first post, they are not for sale at any price. :)

OOC: I can't believe it took someone 18 months to come up with this. Nice to see someone else using the Angelus, or the Nightingale class as I call them. Use 'em responsibly, or I might send the Monitor and her battlegroup after you. And that you won't like.

There are quite a few ways to take out a super-cavitating vessel, and believe it or not, depth charges are one of them. Since a super-cavitating entity cannot, by it's very nature, slow down or turn quickly, any half decent ASW Captain would allow for the speed of the craft, and simply bracket it with depth charges / ASW mortars. The disruptions would cause the bubble to falter/collapse, and bye-bye mister sub-fighter.

I believe when I developed this, it took more than 6 RL weeks to design and build just two of them. Don't go overboard, remember that they are seriously expensive vessels, so don't create hundreds of them. My post-modern self has ten SCBGs (Super-cavitating Carrier Battle Groups), totalling around a hundred-fifty vessels, and that consumes most of my defense budget of more than 20 trillion dollars.

Oh, and one last thing, the cost is spot on. They WILL cost that much to produce, since they are the most complex designs ever created by mankind.

OOC: I didn't realize anyone else had done this. I searched the forums before I posted this and found nothing - wow, parallel research develops the same stuff :cool: As to creating "hundreds of them" don't worry. It takes almost 2 years of my entire military budget to build one carrier and put on the fighters. I figure it will be 10 years or more before I can even think about launching another one and I certainly don't want to go to war with someone who has the same stuff - let's just rule the seas together, you want the Pacific or the Atlantic? :D

Seriously, thanks for recognizing it. Let's RP something together sometime.

I fail to see how the jet engines will work since there isn't enough oxygen disolved in water to properly combust with the jet fuel.... Also, the carriers would need to have nuclear reactors in order to hydrolicize enough fuel for the fighters... and trying to get one of the carriers up to speed would be... difficult at best.

DId you ever consider using a nuclear torch drive to power the things? Have a reactor superheat water and use that hot vapor as both the exhaust and the gas bubble?

(sorry, I got impaitent =) your fix is good enough for me, so long as you see the problem)

No. It's vaporized water, not hydrogen and oxygen. Water doesn't break down when it's vaporized any more than boiling water creates hydrogen and oxygen. You'll need to carry onboard oxygen with you and use it as a rocket... bulky...

And the Shkval is rocket propelled, not jet, has a max speed of 250mph, and an extremely limited range. Still... if you can find a way around the no oxygen problem... it would be decent for a 2025 vehicle.


OOC: Damn, you're right, I got ahead of myself. With this explanation. So I'll back up and say they use the hydro-aluminum burning rocket engine I RP'd for the carrier with Liquid oxygen being loaded onboard the carrier. Hmmm, probably need to think this out a bit more too though.

Damn, realists, thanks.

Oh, yeah, the Shkval, It can hit 300+ mph now according to my research and the range has been extended thanks to better control over fuel combustion methods. Still, I agree, the O2 issue needs to be dealt with. Just give me time and I'll come up with something (McLeod03, how'd you address this?) Until then, please accept my magic oxygen tablets. :D

I fail to see how the jet engines will work since there isn't enough oxygen disolved in water to properly combust with the jet fuel.... Also, the carriers would need to have nuclear reactors in order to hydrolicize enough fuel for the fighters... and trying to get one of the carriers up to speed would be... difficult at best.

DId you ever consider using a nuclear torch drive to power the things? Have a reactor superheat water and use that hot vapor as both the exhaust and the gas bubble?

See my above post, I'm thinking on it, but your points make sense. Although, I will say, the use of Oxygen enriched, hydro-aluminum burning engines should address some of the issues you raise (and there is such a thing in RL).

VA - you don't need any extra gas to form the bubble. it forms naturaly as the object speds up. My own version uses MHD water-jets to accelerate, then uses a net of transducers on the hull to lower the wate presure further, creating a bubble of water vapour. Then, once the bubble stabilises, it uses hydrogen burning rocket-style engines to accelerate whils tin the bubble. The wing-tips extend beyond the bubble, as do canards at the front, allowing for some reasonable form of control.

They don't have nuclear reactors, I'm using cold-fusion reactors, which provide more than enough power for the ship to obtain its own oxygen and hydrogen from the sea-water around it when it isn't super-cavitating.


Mauiwowee - Sure thing. I started one a few months ago with a guy who used DA tech, but it died out. How about a strategic alliance, and I pledge say 500 billion dollars a year to building your own fleet. Not much, but it should help you a little.

As to why you didn't find it, myself and Clairmont developed it in August/September '03, before the move to the Jolt boards. It got purged, along with the copyright thread we had it in. But since you seem fairly responsible, I don't mind. ust try your best not to sell them unless its to people you know will use them properly, and we should get along fine. If you need some cash, I'll buy a few off you.

Yes, I'm sorry, I got ahead of myself (see my above post, I edited it)

Oxygen enriched, hydro-aluminium engines are wonderful things, but I don't think they hold enough energy to do what you want them to.

My suggestion: Either make the subfighters short ranged with rocket engines or slightly larger with nuclear torch drives, and abandon the idea of a supercav carrier. Think aboiut how hard it would be to make such a thing, then think about it's usefulness and vulnerabilities. Also consider, it is one thing to accellerate a missile up to 250mph... qute another to accelerate a ship up that fast. Lotta fuel.

So have slow, conventionally powered sub carriers that launch the subfighters... considereing the posibility of complete destruciton to the carrier if the bubble fails (and I can think of ways to make it fail) and considering the relative lack of utulity of such a large vehicle going that fast... I think conventional would be better. Also, you should think about how you're going to launch weapoins through the bubble. If you have the torps project a bubble of their own as they launch, you're going to end up with a very odd shaped bubble as they penetrate the fighter's bubble for a moment that might be critically unstable. If they penetrate the bubble, then accelerate to supercav speeds... they'll turn into a pancake. Perhaps the fighters need to stop projecting the bubble in order to fire...?

You do need to add gas to the bubble, the bubble only forms on its own if a bit of the hull is in contact with the water. Read the Sci-Am article on it, I believe it shows in detail how the cavitators need to be in contact with the water, or need to vent gas out the nose. One or the other. And even then, the bubble will be smaller than the vehicle unless you're going really bloody fast, so venting gas to enlarge the bubble and modify it's shape makes sence

VA - you don't need any extra gas to form the bubble. it forms naturaly as the object speds up. My own version uses MHD water-jets to accelerate, then uses a net of transducers on the hull to lower the wate presure further, creating a bubble of water vapour. Then, once the bubble stabilises, it uses hydrogen burning rocket-style engines to accelerate whils tin the bubble. The wing-tips extend beyond the bubble, as do canards at the front, allowing for some reasonable form of control.

They don't have nuclear reactors, I'm using cold-fusion reactors, which provide more than enough power for the ship to obtain its own oxygen and hydrogen from the sea-water around it when it isn't super-cavitating.


Mauiwowee - Sure thing. I started one a few months ago with a guy who used DA tech, but it died out. How about a strategic alliance, and I pledge say 500 billion dollars a year to building your own fleet. Not much, but it should help you a little.

As to why you didn't find it, myself and Clairmont developed it in August/September '03, before the move to the Jolt boards. It got purged, along with the copyright thread we had it in. But since you seem fairly responsible, I don't mind. ust try your best not to sell them unless its to people you know will use them properly, and we should get along fine. If you need some cash, I'll buy a few off you.

OOC: I've got to leave now and my ability to log on over the weekend will be sporadic at best, but I'm VERY interested in carrying on the RP. The idea is too good to let go and I'll gladly work a deal with you, I own Australia (at least in Earth V I do) and it is the 2nd largest producer of uranium in RL, this could work well.

Kewl, someone who understands the prinicple and the technology and won't say its a total god mod (as many who don't will).

Edit: VA, thanks as well, your ideas and thoughtful criticism are being considered by me too.

grreings from the sharks tooth. I am very interested in your vessles since I am a ocean "colony" and do not have any land to bother with. I would like to know if these vessles would ever be for sale. I know that I only have a defence budget of about 1bil but it will increase over time. But since my nation is made up of floating citys we focus on naval vessles and only have a small army for "homeland security". Currently we only have conventional modern tech vessles and are interested in increasing our naval power and technology.