NationStates Jolt Archive

welcome, if you are interested in joining this WWII rp, just post who you are, who you want to be, and get ready to fight for freedom or dictatorship! so far, here is the nations list:


Germany-Survo
The Sword and Sheild - France
Tomzilla-Japan
FPC - Canada
Blyclaaf - Australia
Psychopathic Warmonger- Italy
GB- Drake Verdon
Chaosdiener-Afrika Corps
Kyleralia-Spain
Avro Dark-United States
Neuvo Rica - China

this is not a final list. if you can think of another country, tell me and i will add it. when new people join, i will edit this post to add them.

if you have questions regarding just yourself, do not post them here, they take up too much space, telegram them to me. I am survo. if you are interested in further WWII things, join the region called The Historical District.

weapons specs will be provided.

Join up and prepare for battle.

Can I be Germany?

mmmmmm....I feel like being Russia, the wild card. I'm a newb at RP, is that OK?

What about France? If it is open I would like to be it, unless the RP starts anywhere past 1940, in which case I'll choose something else.

Japan please. And when does this RP start? Which year?

Allow me to be germany? I'm a good roleplayer and I'm the MOST knowledgable Germany. Please?

I think China should be included. They were fighting the Japanese before and during WW2.

I think the British should be merged into a combined British/Commonwealth nation, to include all the Dominions in the Commonwealth, because it would be that less micro-management.

China should definitely be included, the only problem being it woud require an RPer willing to RP within restraint, since on paper, China should dominate the Japanese Army in China, very different in reality.

Poland maybe, since even if it is overrun, an RP of the Free Polish forces could probably entertain someone.

No Poland, they'd have to god-mode or automaticly lose.

No Poland, they'd have to god-mode or automaticly lose.

They had the Fourth largest Army in Europe, and the best anti-tank guns on the Continent (spare the 88's, which really weren't AT guns or even used in that role often until Rommel at Arras). Their rapid collapse was due to horrid deployment and a lack of a strategic reserve, they actually acheived a lot of local successes (such as attacking a German army's flank and throwing it into disarray from Lodz), and had thye had better deployment, could have held out longer. In an RP, I'm assumng the player would deploy himself far better than IRL.

The only reason Europe EVER standed a chance against Germany is because Hitler was an idiot of war. All of his decisions were frowned upon by his generals who had to obey because he way their leader. A good Germany would have Poland crushed, England defeated, and Russia surrendered.

The only reason Europe EVER standed a chance against Germany is because Hitler was an idiot of war. All of his decisions were frowned upon by his generals who had to obey because he way their leader. A good Germany would have Poland crushed, England defeated, and Russia surrendered.

Russia had a huge interior to evacuate into, Britain had the Royal Navy and the Channel anyone who thinks the BoB decided England's fate clearly has never studied the situation, and Poland was crushed. Germany took on way too mny enemies, with an economy which was only good for short term blitzes, once facing an enemy that could keep the war going longer then a year Germany was screwed.

I'd like to play as Canada please.

Allow me to be Germany? I'm a good roleplayer and I'm the MOST knowledgeable Germany. Please?
I have already asked.

I'd like to be Australia please

I have plently of experience RP'ing so I'd like to be Italy please :)

Great Brittan. I get to be Churchill.

ok, one at a time, post what country you would like to be. please just say your name and requested country.

The Sword and Sheild - France

FPC - Canada

Psychopathic Warmonger - Italy

Mattvia - Germany

Drake Verdon- Great Brittan

Chaosdiener-Afrika Corps.

Kyleralia-Spain

What about France? If it is open I would like to be it, unless the RP starts anywhere past 1940, in which case I'll choose something else.

France still exsisted after 1940 as the German puppet state of Vichy France and many Frechmen evacuated to Britian and fromed the Free-French Forces. so it would still be possible to play France after 1940. But I would believe that this RP would start in September 1939.

Just as a side note, there have been many WWII RPs that have been organized and just about all of them failed. So if you guys are really intent on doing this, I suggest you start:

A. Creating more rules and regulations
B. Adding far more countries (yes, its possible)
C. Creating your own message board to help keep things centralized and use NS as a recruiting base.(optional)

Anyways, I might as well participate in this RP, so I wish to claim Greece.

Lachenburg- Greece

I see that the level of taste in RPing has dropped substantially in this forum. Making up wars using NS nations is fine, but re-doing one of the most tragic wars in the history of earth... it's not right. Show some respect, lads.

well I played in Alternate WWII and that lasted all the way to the end. It ended when Germany had layed in Ruins. Russia (me) had Nuked the shit outta finland. And Japan surrendered.

Avro Dark-United States

Hey if no one has taken japan I could do that

Mental lands-japan :D

I see that the level of taste in RPing has dropped substantially in this forum. Making up wars using NS nations is fine, but re-doing one of the most tragic wars in the history of earth... it's not right. Show some respect, lads.

Considering the fact that an RP of this sort as been made many times, Im curious is as to why you've singled this one out. Furhtermore, there is really no difference between RPing a historical campaign and a NS campaign, considering the that they both use the same general rules of conduct.

*No offense meant. I apologize if this post was a tad bit rude.*

Considering the fact that an RP of this sort as been made many times, Im curious is as to why you've singled this one out. Furhtermore, there is really no difference between RPing a historical campaign and a NS campaign, considering the that they both use the same general rules of conduct.

*No offense meant. I apologize if this post was a tad bit rude.*

I've singled this one out because it's the first time I've visited II in a while. I usually about it because of the massive n00b presence, but I digress.

The difference, in my opinion, between RPing a historical campaign and an NS one is that you're extracting entertainment from tragic events that have actually happened. With an NS campaign, you're using a created nation, not a real one, and therefore not referring to real people. I think that this sort of RP shows a massive lack of respect for everything that happened in WW2.

(What I find interesting that every American on this forum would be up in arms if someone started a 9/11 RP, but don't seem to mind RPing a far more catastrophic war)

I don't see why you are so upset, it's a RP for crying out loud.

i asked forno interuptoins, please restate the selections and i am jewish so i appreciate the history of the terrible death of wwii

i forgot to mension, you can ally yourself with different people once the game begins, so america could side with germany

Japan
Strength: navel and air power
Weakness: no heavy tanks

Germany
Strength: fighter aircraft, good tanks
Weakness: lack off troop tansport, lack of massed tanks, lack of good bombers

Italy
Strength: navy, commandoes, a alright airforce
Weakness: tanks, infantry



United States
Strength: massed units, navy
Weakness: low quality units, lack of heavy tanks

Russia
Strength: massed units, tanks, infantry, airforce
Weakness: navy

Great Britain
Strength: airforce, navy
Weakness: tanks

France still exsisted after 1940 as the German puppet state of Vichy France and many Frechmen evacuated to Britian and fromed the Free-French Forces. so it would still be possible to play France after 1940. But I would believe that this RP would start in September 1939.

While this is true, I have no intention of RPing either Vichy France or Free France if other countries are available is this starts post 1940. If nothing else is left of value, I would take FF.

Italy
Strength: navy, commandoes, a alright airforce
Weakness: tanks, infantry

Italy made some great fighters, but not many, unless you actually consider the CR. 42 to be a good WWII fighter, the Italian Air Force was not exactly modern.


United States
Strength: massed units, navy
Weakness: low quality units, lack of heavy tanks

You have this way off, first, with the largest Air Force in the world by the end (with annual output of almost 97,000 machines, 4-5x greater than any other major power), one US Strength should be Air Force. Navy is good, but your massed units and low quality were way off. First, the US, whileproducing enough equipment to arm and field 2,000 divisions, only created 90, about 1/3 the total of Germany (A nation less then 1/3 it's size in population), all of which were of very high quality (just look at their intake of supplies, 3x that of the average German division of the same type, they were loaded withe verything a divisional commander could ever need, and tha's not even counting Corps motor pools and artillery assets), so it should be High Quality units, but not many. One hit on the Americans though should be their huge intake of supplies needed to field their divisions, which requires a good port city (if not in NA), and adequate supply lines.

Russia
Strength: massed units, tanks, infantry, airforce
Weakness: navy

I'm not sure if I agree with the Russian Air Force, for the most part, they were a few aces surrounded by recruits to basically be cannon fodder. Until late in the war (With significant Western help), the Soviet Air Force was pathetic in anything but sheer numbers, it's best fighter being the American supplied P-40 (The IL-2 was a good plane, but don't forget it wasn't a fighter). Also with the sheer amount and quality of their artillery, this should be a strength of theirs, along with the US since the US had a lot of it too.

If I could, there's more

France
Strengths: Good Tanks, Artillery, Defensive fighting
Weaknesses: #'s of Aircraft, poor intercommunication, poor morale in Series B Reserve

China (Nationalist)
Strengths: Mass Infantry, Huge Interior
Weaknesses: poor quality infantry, airforce, navy, divided

Poland
Strengths: AT weapons, Cavalry (using modern tactics, it wasn't as outdated in '39 as many believe it to be)
Weaknesses: Airforce, Armor, Motorization

Spain (Nationalist, assuming post-39)
Strengths: Experienced Army
Weakness: War Weary, Devestated

Canada
Strengths: "Elite" troops, navy (in dealing with small ships, corvettes and DD's)
Weaknesses: Not many troops (4 divisions IRL)

Greece
Strengths: Good Defensive terrain
Weaknesses: Airforce, Armor

Yugoslavia
Strengths: Large #'s of Active Infantry
Weaknesses: Divided, Poor quality infantry, very poor defensive terrain, Airforc

Belgium
Strengths: Several good defensive lines (Albert Canal, Meuse, Schelde), good morale
Weaknesses: Outdated equipment, small Army, armor, air force

Netherlands
Strengths: "Fortress Holland", Navy
Weaknesses: Air Force, Army, No experience in almost a century

Finland
Strengths: Great Morale, Good quality Army
Weaknesses: Not many soldiers, Air Force

Norway
Strengths: Coastal Defences (+ coastal navy), solid defensive terrain
Weaknesses: Army, Air Force

Why do you say elite troops for Canada? I'm Canadian and have read alot about the war, but were Canada's troops really good? (Too bad Canada's already taken D=)

The Germans had good bombers and good troops.

Monocanjh-China


And BTW, Dispite China being divided, Communist China, Sinkiang and Nationalist China ended hostilities to fight a common foe, the Japanese.

Hey if no one has taken japan I could do that

Mental lands-japan :D

Sorry but I claimed Nippon(a.k.a Japan) on the first page.

Monocanjh-China


And BTW, Dispite China being divided, Communist China, Sinkiang and Nationalist China ended hostilities to fight a common foe, the Japanese.

Yeah but the Koumintang(sp?) used much of the resources it recieved from the Allies to fight the Communists. The Communists was the main group that was fighting Japan in China.

I thought I was going to be Germany, because I claimed it first. A well, but Survo, can I be the SS?

Dont think this one is taken...

Neuvo Rica - China

If I could, there's more

France
Strengths: Good Tanks, Artillery, Defensive fighting
Weaknesses: #'s of Aircraft, poor intercommunication, poor morale in Series B Reserve

China (Nationalist)
Strengths: Mass Infantry, Huge Interior
Weaknesses: poor quality infantry, airforce, navy, divided

Poland
Strengths: AT weapons, Cavalry (using modern tactics, it wasn't as outdated in '39 as many believe it to be)
Weaknesses: Airforce, Armor, Motorization

Spain (Nationalist, assuming post-39)
Strengths: Experienced Army
Weakness: War Weary, Devestated

Canada
Strengths: "Elite" troops, navy (in dealing with small ships, corvettes and DD's)
Weaknesses: Not many troops (4 divisions IRL)

Greece
Strengths: Good Defensive terrain
Weaknesses: Airforce, Armor

Yugoslavia
Strengths: Large #'s of Active Infantry
Weaknesses: Divided, Poor quality infantry, very poor defensive terrain, Airforc

Belgium
Strengths: Several good defensive lines (Albert Canal, Meuse, Schelde), good morale
Weaknesses: Outdated equipment, small Army, armor, air force

Netherlands
Strengths: "Fortress Holland", Navy
Weaknesses: Air Force, Army, No experience in almost a century

Finland
Strengths: Great Morale, Good quality Army
Weaknesses: Not many soldiers, Air Force

Norway
Strengths: Coastal Defences (+ coastal navy), solid defensive terrain
Weaknesses: Army, Air Force

lets go with yours

Dont think this one is taken...

Neuvo Rica - China

I think it is.

If I could, there's more


Belgium
Strengths: Several good defensive lines (Albert Canal, Meuse, Schelde), good morale
Weaknesses: Outdated equipment, small Army, armor, air force

Actually, the Belgian Army numbered 900,000 men, most of which were equipped with modern French equipment. Also, the had a rather medium sized airforce, equipped with American Buffalos, British Hawker Hurricanes and Gladiators. The only problem was, is that they had only 7 anti-tank guns and one tank brigade out of the entire army. Furthermore, King Leopold III was a German Sympathizer.

So, has my offer been accepted?

Yeah but the Koumintang(sp?) used much of the resources it recieved from the Allies to fight the Communists. The Communists was the main group that was fighting Japan in China.

Wrong, the Communists did next to nothing to fight the Japanese, it was only the KMT that fought that Japanese, and even then, only barely until the Ichi-Go offensive of 1944 (Aimed at Japan's Chinese enemy, the KMT). The Communists were far seperated from any of the major areas of operations, and except for a few skirmishes and maybe one or two battles, they just sat there. The KMT had little more success, but they at least fought the Japanese, and they did fight the Communists during the war too, the "truce" really wasn't all that effective, such as the KMT ambushing and destroying the Communist 4th National Army.

Actually, the Belgian Army numbered 900,000 men, most of which were equipped with modern French equipment. Also, the had a rather medium sized airforce, equipped with American Buffalos, British Hawker Hurricanes and Gladiators. The only problem was, is that they had only 7 anti-tank guns and one tank brigade out of the entire army. Furthermore, King Leopold III was a German Sympathizer.

Ok, I was wrong on the size of their army, but I still stadn by my comment on their air force. The Buffalo and Gladiator are both not modern WWII machines (the MS. 406 was better in my opinion than both, and anyone can see how that machine worked out). Only the Hurricane is a significant fighter, but I have no information on numbers.

Why do you say elite troops for Canada? I'm Canadian and have read alot about the war, but were Canada's troops really good? (Too bad Canada's already taken D=)

Many consider the Canadians to be the "shock troops" of the Imperial Forces. Certianly their reputation from the last war remained unchallenged (Vimy Ridge). There is still great debate over whether or not they truly were of better esprit de corps or effectiveness than their equivalent Commonwealth and American formations, but they certainly were a tough bunch. But for the RP, I think we have to give it to them regardless of the debate, since tey really do not have great manpower resources at hand.

If no one is Russia then that is who I will be. If I can't then Holland.

Wrong, the Communists did next to nothing to fight the Japanese, it was only the KMT that fought that Japanese, and even then, only barely until the Ichi-Go offensive of 1944 (Aimed at Japan's Chinese enemy, the KMT). The Communists were far seperated from any of the major areas of operations, and except for a few skirmishes and maybe one or two battles, they just sat there. The KMT had little more success, but they at least fought the Japanese, and they did fight the Communists during the war too, the "truce" really wasn't all that effective, such as the KMT ambushing and destroying the Communist 4th National Army.

I respect the fact that when it comes to WWII knowledge you know you're onions, but "The KMT had little more success" is as bit harsh. They had plenty of success against the Japanese in the early stages of the Japan-China war i.e. 1931-1937.

Wrong, the Communists did next to nothing to fight the Japanese, it was only the KMT that fought that Japanese, and even then, only barely until the Ichi-Go offensive of 1944 (Aimed at Japan's Chinese enemy, the KMT). The Communists were far seperated from any of the major areas of operations, and except for a few skirmishes and maybe one or two battles, they just sat there. The KMT had little more success, but they at least fought the Japanese, and they did fight the Communists during the war too, the "truce" really wasn't all that effective, such as the KMT ambushing and destroying the Communist 4th National Army.


No, both the KMT and the Communist forces fought the Japanese, and it was the Communists that did the most.

"During the Second World War the Communist forces of Mao proved to be a superior fighting force and did most of the defending against the Japanese invaders, which not only brought them more support from the Chinese population, but more experience, loot, and territory as well."

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/maoist_china.htm

I think Nationalist China and Communist China should be seperate. I would take either if that does occur.

which not only brought them more support from the Chinese population, but more experience, loot, and territory as well

True, which would explain why china became a communist country later on rather than a nationalist one.
Btw, is there any indication of when this RP will begin??? :)

I already made my claim on Russia, one of the first to do so.

I agree, when do we begin?

lets do this.... I claimed Nationalist China already! Grrr!

I lay claim to Communist China then, if that is allowed.

Ok, I was wrong on the size of their army, but I still stadn by my comment on their air force. The Buffalo and Gladiator are both not modern WWII machines (the MS. 406 was better in my opinion than both, and anyone can see how that machine worked out). Only the Hurricane is a significant fighter, but I have no information on numbers.

I believe they had 72 squadrons of aricraft in 1940, the majority of them being obsolete Gladiator Fighters.

I respect the fact that when it comes to WWII knowledge you know you're onions, but "The KMT had little more success" is as bit harsh. They had plenty of success against the Japanese in the early stages of the Japan-China war i.e. 1931-1937.

Sorry, that sentence contains a typo, it should say, "the KMT had a little more success" sorry.

No, both the KMT and the Communist forces fought the Japanese, and it was the Communists that did the most.

"During the Second World War the Communist forces of Mao proved to be a superior fighting force and did most of the defending against the Japanese invaders, which not only brought them more support from the Chinese population, but more experience, loot, and territory as well."

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/maoist_china.htm

I think Nationalist China and Communist China should be seperate. I would take either if that does occur.

I'm sorry, but your source is heaviy biased, and I wouldn't exactly believe that. If you can give me the names and dates of significant battles the Chinese Communists fought against the Japanese, and compare themto the Nationalists, then maybe I'll believe you. For the simple reason the Communists were far seperated from the provinces the Japanese centered on (I'm not saying they hid or anything, they were just too far away), there was not as much fighting between the two as between the KMT and Japanese.

For instance, your source claims both the Japanese and Americans post-war sent forces to help the KMT fight the Communists, any simple lookover of this "aid" shows this to be a highly misleading statement. First, the US did send 50,000 Marines into China, but to relieve Japanese garrisons still operating, and enforce a cease fire between Communists and Nationalists, not fight the Communists, and the Marines fought both forces in minor skirmishes (out of the control of the leadership of both the KMT and Communists). As for the Japanese, fearing that ordering all Japanese on the mainland to surrender would lead to hundreds of thousands of out-of-work Japanese soldiers roaming about China, the Japanese were allowed to keep their garrisons active until relieved (usually by KMT troops), so any attacks on the Communists would have been in response to a communist attack.

So, as you can see, I'm not opt to believe your source.

I believe they had 72 squadrons of aricraft in 1940, the majority of them being obsolete Gladiator Fighters.

I don't think that constitutes a first rate force to count for them (as the British and Americans do, and until about 1941, the Germans), but perhaps it does not count against them. Still, it all depends on how you are valuing the Air Force, in terms of numbers (72 squadrons is nothing to scoff at, considering only 4 Gladiators wreacked havoc on the Italian Air Force over Malta), or in terms of quality (Those 4 Gladiators weren't exactly fighting modern machines, the Glostar had a lot of edges over the CR. 42 and Machi bombers, and whn the German fliegerkorps arrived, Hurricanes had to be sent in).

lol this is funny you all think your all ww2 experts - this is your local ww2 expert here im going to hang out and make sure everything is good

a little bit about me im 18 years old i live in New Zealand but i was born in Taiwan ive beed studying World war two since i could bearly read i have many world war two books and 1000mb of world war two data on my computer also ive worked on a number of world war two game projects to provide historican information

i have made a world war two data base and a few other RPs in my very own Fourm

this is what happened in real life at first the KMT goverment did not wish to fight the Japanese and they was still fighting the Comunists it was the Commuinists in northern china which was there power base and where they had most of there bases in northern and middle of China who was the first ones to start to fight the Japanese it was later when both sides communists and KMT forces joined up in a alliances to attack the Japanese

also to credit the KMT with little success is foolish and only shows your own lack of History - the KMT had many low level success agasint the Japanese which are not well known such as the KMT airforce bombing of Japanese Taiwan and holding the Japnanese up at Nanking

and that first strength and weakness list posted by survo was composed by me the Russians had poor quility arty comapred to the Germans they lacked everything but in numbers range,pentration, and types of guns they used were mostly models from ww1 also American tanks was quite low quility tanks they had a few good tanks but compared to the Germans you just have to look at when 1 Panther stoped 12 Shermans in Nomandy

Is this still open? I'll take russia if it's free...

a little bit about me im 18 years old i live in New Zealand but i was born in Taiwan ive beed studying World war two since i could bearly read i have many world war two books and 1000mb of world war two data on my computer also ive worked on a number of world war two game projects to provide historican information

In other words.... your an amatuer historian?

i have made a world war two data base and a few other RPs in my very own Fourm

If you could provide a link, it would be helpful in assembling this rp.

this is what happened in real life at first the KMT goverment did not wish to fight the Japanese and they was still fighting the Comunists it was the Commuinists in northern china which was there power base and where they had most of there bases in northern and middle of China who was the first ones to start to fight the Japanese it was later when both sides communists and KMT forces joined up in a alliances to attack the Japanese

The Manchurian warlord answered to the KMT more than the communists (that was the first battle), and when the Japanee invaded over the Marco Polo Bridge incident (in 1937) it was in response to Nationalist troops, and they struck at the Nationalist coastline (the invasion never penetrated incredibly deep until Ichi-Go) and Nationalist strongholds in the north like Beijing. The Communists were holed up in the Yuan province in the bend of the Yellow river, the area where Chinese dissidents had always traditionall set up. It was not until after the effective defeat of the Nationalists in 37-38 the Communists began skirmishing with the Japanese. And btw, the Alliance to fight the Japanese was in place before the Marco Polo Bridge Incident, it was the Xian Incident, basically Chiang Kei-Sheik was taken hostage by several of his army leaders and forced to sign a truce with the Communists in order to unite the contry against the Japanese, this was before the Japanese invaded.

also to credit the KMT with little success is foolish and only shows your own lack of History - the KMT had many low level success agasint the Japanese which are not well known such as the KMT airforce bombing of Japanese Taiwan and holding the Japnanese up at Nanking

Did you not read the part about it being a typo?

and that first strength and weakness list posted by survo was composed by me the Russians had poor quility arty comapred to the Germans they lacked everything but in numbers range,pentration, and types of guns they used were mostly models from ww1

WHAT!! Your saying Russian artillery is bad!! Traditionally, Russia (and the Soviet Union's) strongpoint has always been artillery, and in 1941 the Soviet artillery was no less then the Germans (sure it lacked the Germans really big guns, but those were wastes of resources). Are you seriously going to say the Katyusha was not the most effective artillery weapon of the Eastern Front?

also American tanks was quite low quility tanks they had a few good tanks but compared to the Germans you just have to look at when 1 Panther stoped 12 Shermans in Nomandy

Read up on when the Shermans first arrived in the desert, they owned all but the Panzer mk.V. And it's low success rate against the heavy German tanks was because US doctrine had moved way from heavy tanks (sure they were good, but they also consume a ton of fuel, are relaly big targets for the Air Force, and are slow), to medium tanks to support the infantry, and leaving tank-killing to the real weapon for the job, Tank Destroyer units. American tanks were never made for tank-to-tank battles, that's what the M10 and M18 were for, and this worked quite effectively combined with the Air Force. And if you want to use one occasion (1 to 12 tanks) as an example of how infeior one weapon is, are you going to say the T34 (probably the best tank of the war) was a bad weapon becaue Wittman had over 50 kills, a good number of them T34s.

well you may call me a amatuer historian but you will regret it

my data base is here

http://s4.invisionfree.com/All_World_War_Two/index.php?showforum=2

lets do some comparasions

The 85 mm Field Gun D-44 Model 1944 - Russian
Muzzle velocity (m/s) -1380
penatration at 100m - 180
Penatration at 500m - 140
penatration at 1000m - 110
Penatration at 1500m - 85

German 88mm Kw.K. 43 L/71
Muzzle velocity (m/s) - 1130
penatration at 100m - 237
Penatration at 500m - 217
penatration at 1000m - 193
Penatration at 1500m - 171


76.2mm 1942 divisonal gun zis-3 model (russian)
penatration at 100m - 82
Penatration at 500m - 75
penatration at 1000m - 67
Penatration at 1500m - 60
Prentration at 2000m - 53

76.2mm Pa.K. 36(r) L/51.5 1940 ( German )
penatration at 100m - 135
Penatration at 500m - 116
penatration at 1000m - 94
Penatration at 1500m - 75
Prentration at 2000m - 58

76.2 divisonal gun f-22 USV ( russian)
penatration at 100m - 66
Penatration at 500m - 64
penatration at 1000m - 60
Penatration at 1500m - 46

75mm Stu.K. 40 L/43 PzGr 40 (german)
penatration at 100m - 126
Penatration at 500m - 108
penatration at 1000m - 87
Penatration at 1500m - 69

If i can join, may i repalce the russian junk with my junk?

Does having inferior artillery compared to Germany in some areas mean they have bad artillery? You are wholly discounting the Katyusha, some might even argue it was the best artillery peice of the war (a topic already hotly debated between the 88mm and 105mm), and in the sheer weight of artillery (forming entire artillery divisions) I think this makes the Soviets quite adept at artillery.

why does Neuvco Rica have China when I asked first?

Russian BM-13 Kat
16 x 132mm M-13 rockets
132mm M-13
Range: 8 500 meters

Nebelwerfer 41
24x 150mm WGr ( rokect type)
Range: 7 055 meters

Comment the Russians out range the German Nebelwerfer but the German Nebelwerfer has a larger warhead and has more rockets

Russian BM-13 Kat
16 x 132mm M-13 rockets
132mm M-13
Range: 8 500 meters

Nebelwerfer 41
24x 150mm WGr ( rokect type)
Range: 7 055 meters

Comment the Russians out range the German Nebelwerfer but the German Nebelwerfer has a larger warhead and has more rockets

As far as I've been able to find, the most common Nebelwerfer could either fire 6 rockets, or 10 on the mobile version, could you please tell me how you got 24. And the Katyusha could fire more than 16 rockets, it depended on what version, some could fire 48, but you are correct the BM-13 could fire only 16. Perhaps for the Nebelwerfer you were using how many rounds can be fired in x amount of time, but that still doesn't fit for the Katyusha. It does however have a larger warhead (22 kg's to 25 kg's).

ill get you the information soon

first both tanks used the same 75mm guns but

Panzer 4
Panzergranate 39
Penatration at 500m - 96mm
Penatration at 1000m - 85mm

Sherman tank
Penatration at 500m - 66MM
Penatration at 1000m -60mm

ill get you the information soon

first both tanks used the same 75mm guns but

Panzer 4
Panzergranate 39
Penatration at 500m - 96mm
Penatration at 1000m - 85mm

Sherman tank
Penatration at 500m - 66MM
Penatration at 1000m -60mm

That still makes them a match for the Panzer mk. IV, and far better than anything the Allies had fielded in the desert before.

yes i agree what the Sherman made up for its gun was more amour and more rounds than the Panzer 4

but the Germans also had the

210mm Nebelwerfer 42
300mm Nebelwerfer 42
Himmler-Orgel -80mm


while the russians
310mm M-31
82mm M8
132mm M-13
300mm M-30

and the Americans used the
110.25mm 4.5-Inch M8 rockets

I'm not saying the Sherman was some kind of super-tank, in fact, it was mediocre at best as a tank, not on par with the T-34 or Panther and later tanks, but it also was never designed as a tank-killer, but as an combined arms weapons, the TD's were for tank killing. The US did make some bad tanks, the Stuart wasn't exactly a great tank, and the Sherman had flaws (though the Firefly variant was very good), but this is not bad enough to be a hit against the Americans (like the British, who failed to produce a really good tank until very late in the war). I would not have it as a plus for the Americans, but just not as a negative.

The Germans also had the 280/320mm Nebelwerfer 41, along with other rockets like the 280mm / 320mm schweres Wurfgeraet 40, 280mm / 300mm / 320mm schweres Wurfgeraet 41 , 300mm Raketenwerfer 56

ok i think that settles it can we start to do stuff and not fight this is supposed to be a RP not where two people can fight who is the better person i have numbers of the time who gets what at the start so lets move shall we

China

Well there isn’t much to put here as the Chinese army in the second world war just sucked they had mostly bits and pieces of equipment from many nations nothing was standardized they lacked mostly everything in combat at the time so ill just list some of the armored unites used my the Chinese forces

Light Tanks:

T-26b
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/vickers6ton.gif

French FT-17
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/Chi-FT17.jpg

U.S. M24 Light Tank
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/Chi-capturedUSM24-KoreanWar-Xinhui.jpg

Medium Tanks:
M4 Sherman
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/Chi-M4Sherman.jpg

Heavy Tanks:
China gets these later

Artillery (SPG)
U.S. M41, M41A1
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/Chi-capturedUSM41-KoreanWar-Xinhui.jpg

Infantry numbers:

3.5 million

Bomber:
Tupolev SB-2
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v2/v2n2/sbchina.gif


Ground attack aircraft:
Northrop 2E
http://vintage-aviation.hp.infoseek.co.jp/us_northrop-2e-gamma_1934.jpg

Fighter:
I-15bis
http://www.aviapress.com/book/oth/oth189/oth189_12.jpg

I-16
http://www.kiwinewz.com/graphics/polikarpov.jpg

Advanced fighter:
P40
http://www.njahof.org/p40_01.jpg


Navy
Few gunboats

Other weapons

Soviet T34
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/Chi-T3485-foundingdayofPLAtankcommand-XinHui.jpg

IS-2
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/Chi-IS2.jpg

Su-122
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/Chi-SU100-XinHui-1.jpg

Does anyone know te start date of this RP? If it is September 1939 I have a source for very reliable OOB's of almost every major and minor country, though I am pretty much only concerned with France. And furthermore, will we be able to change the production of items, because as France, I would like to cease production of the MS. 406 and Amiots and throw all my weight into lots more DW. 520's and LeO 451's, not to mention producing a lot more radios and perhaps increasing crew size in my tanks.

ok ill let you do it have to ask survo on that on but 1939 sounds gd

I can do any nation but my fav are Japan, Italy and any navy in the world i like Japan most

I can post OOB's here for any nation that wants them, or TG them to you or Survo at any time.

so what ya think of my data base

I'm having trouble browsing it (my internet is acting all buggy at the moment), but from what I've seen it sees very informative and I've bookmarked it as a reference. I've spent what time I can keep my internet working looking over the French area of the site, and while I am saddened to see the LeO 451 is not in the French Aircraft section, this is the first site I have finally been able to find that details the MAS, something I'm ecstatic about.

well im going to put everything there hopefully one day as its never finished and will never will be but i will continue to update and make my site better

So can I be the SS?

i dont think so as they are a branch of the German armed forces they should come under the control of who ever controls geramny

ok ill let you do it have to ask survo on that on but 1939 sounds gd

I can do any nation but my fav are Japan, Italy and any navy in the world i like Japan most

Sorry, Italy is taken and I believe Japan is also.

you just have to look at when 1 Panther stoped 12 Shermans in Nomandy

Are you refering to SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Michael Wittmann, because of you are then 1. He was a Tiger tank commander 2. He knocked out 27 tanks and other tracked vehicles in Villers-Bocage on June 13th 1944

i dont think so as they are a branch of the German armed forces they should come under the control of who ever controls geramny
I know I am asking Survo if can be them for him. Also the SS were not part of the Wehrmacht.

i dont think so as they are a branch of the German armed forces they should come under the control of who ever controls geramny
I already claimed Japan.

I know I am asking Survo if can be them for him. Also the SS were not part of the Wehrmacht.


really no shit

what i meant they are still german and still should be under german control

one at a time, who has what? no interuptions please

I was wondering if i could have Russia. I was also wissing to replace the old Mossin Nagangts with my own custom WW2 weapons. They aren't far fetched at all.

Main rifle
http://users.zoominternet.net/~helwildcat/ns/SG1.jpg
SMG
http://users.zoominternet.net/~helwildcat/ns/MG3.jpg
Special usage rife
http://users.zoominternet.net/~helwildcat/ns/RF2.jpg
SMG
http://users.zoominternet.net/~helwildcat/ns/MG7.jpg
Sniper weapon
http://users.zoominternet.net/~helwildcat/ns/SG3.jpg

Other than that i would be very happy with Russian equiptment

To get things started, I'm going to post my general information on the Greek Army at 1940. Of course, I'm going to use this post as a furture reference later on (if this gets anywhere).


Greece: Army on Mobilization

Independent

6th Infantry Division
Crete

8th Infantry Division
Epirus; reinforced with 1 arty bn and AAA units
UI Cavalry Division

I Corps

2nd Infantry Division
Athens

3rd Infantry Division
Patros, Peleponneses; bde at Chakis, Euboea

4th Infantry Division
Nauplion, Peleponneses

II Corps

1st Infantry Division
Larissa, Thessalonike

9th Infantry Division
Kozani, West Macedonia

4th Infantry Brigade
Florina, West Macedonia

5th Infantry Brigade
Trikkala, West Macedonia

16th Infantry Brigade
Larrisa, Thessalonike

III Corps

6th Infantry Division
Serra, East Macedonia

10th Infantry Division
Verroia, East Macedonia

11th Infantry Division
Salonika, East Macedonia

17th Infantry Division
Salonika, East Macedonia

IV Corps

7th Infantry Division
Drama, East Macedonia

14th Infantry Division
Xanthi, East Macedonia

V Corps

12th Infantry Division
Komotini, Thrace

13th Infantry Division
Aegean Archipelego

Each corps had assigned a cavalry battalion, an artillery regiment of 28 tubes, an AAA regiment of 34 guns, AAA companies, and an engineer battalion. In some corps, these corps troops had less artillery.

In addition, there were:

- 3 fortress regiments

- 2 fortress battalions

- 16 fortress companies

- 20 L of C/security companies

- 2 infantry battalions

- 4 infantry companies

- 2 machinegun battalions

- 2 AA battalions (8 guns)

- 1 artillery regiment (36 tubes)

- 2 engineer battalions

- 8 engineer companies

Thus, the Greek Army was almost entirely infantry, with little by way of corps and army troops. Even the divisions were very lightly equipped, with fewer heavy weapons than a British brigade. A division had:

- 3 infantry regiments (each 2 X 65mm mountain guns, 4 X 81mm mortars, and a reconnaissance platoon)

- 6 infantry battalions (2 per regiment; 3 rifle companies each with 6 LMGs, 1 company with 4 HMG)

- 1 reconnaissance battalion (2 reconnaissance companies each with 6 LMGs, one company 12 HMGs)

- 1 artillery regiment (two battalions of two batteries each; total regiment 8 75mm and 8 105mm howitzers)

- 1 engineer company

- 2 signals companies

I'll probably add more at a later time.

Still wondering why Nuevco Ruca has China when I asked first :(

I would willingly take Canada, but FPC has it so I'm just going to watch.

French Order of Battle, September 1939. Names of the Divisions have been ommitted to shorten the list, and ship classes have been simplified. Thus far I'm having some trouble locating a good OOB for the Armee d'le Air.

Army

Scandinavian Expeditionary Force (French Northern Coast)
1 Infantry Division
2 Alpine Divisions

Seventh Army (In the Lille-Calais Area on the Franco-Belgian Border)
2 Infantry Divisions
2 Motorized Divisions
1 DLM (Light Armoured Division)

First Army (Centered on the Franco-Belgian border)
4 Infantry Divisions
3 Motorized Divisions
1 DLM

Ninth Army (West bank of the Meuse)
4 Infantry Divisions
2 Cavalry Divisions
1 Motorized Division

2nd Army (East Bank of the Meuse)
6 Infantry Divisions
2 Cavalry Divisions

3rd Army (Maginot Line)
12 Infantry Divisions
1 Cavalry Division

Fifth Army (Lorraine)
5 Infantry Divisions
2 Alpine Divisions

Eighth Army (Alsace)
6 Infantry Divisions
1 Alpine Division

Fourth Army (Moselle)
5 Infantry

Army Group 3 Reserves (Moselle)
2 Infantry Divisions

GQG Reserves (all at about 70% strength)
9 Infantry Divisions
1 Motorized Division

Army of the Alps (Franco-Italian Border)
2 Infantry Divisions
2 Alpine Divisions

Armee d'Afrique (Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia)
11 Infantry Divisions
1 Cavalry Division

Indochinese Force
2 Infantry Divisions (both at about 2/3 strength)

Divisions Forming
3 DCR's (Armoured Divisions)
1 DLM


Navy

Atlantic Fleet (Brest)
BB Courbet (Courbet class)
BB Paris (Courbet class)
CA Duquesne (Algerie class)
CA Foch (Algierie class)
CL Georges Leyguez (La Galissonierre class)
CL Marseillaise (La Galissonierre class)
CL Duguay Trouin (La Galissonierre class)
4 Destroyer flotillas (about 20-30 destoyers of Mogador and Borrasque class)

1st Submarine Squadron (Brest)
3 Submarine flotillas (Requin, Redoubtable, and De Lome class)

Mine Patrol Force (Brest)
Pollux
Castor

Training Squadron (Lorient) (Most unfit for action)
BB Ocean (Courbet class, unfit for action)
CL Pluton (Emile Bertin class
CA Jeane d'Arc (Jeane d'Arc class)
CL Emile Bertin (Emile Bertin class)

2nd Submarine Squadron (Lorient)
3 Submarine flotillas (Redoubtable class)

Mediterranean Fleet (Toulon)
BB Provence (Bretagne class)
BB Bretagne (Bretagne class)
BB Lorraine (Bretagne class)
CA Tourville (Algerie class)
CA Suffren (Algerie class)
CA Colbert (Aglerie class)
CL Jean de Vienne (La Galissonierre class)
CL La Galissonierre (La Galissonierre class)
4 flotillas of destroyers (Bourrosque and Mogador class)

Mediterranean Submarines (Toulon)
5 Flotillas of Submarines (Redoubtable, Requin, and De Lome class)

North African Squadron (Mers-el-Kebir)
BC Dunkurque (Dunkurque class)
BC Strasbourg (Dunkurque class)
CA Dupleix (Algerie class)
CA Algerie (Algerie class)
CL Primaguet (La Galissonierre class)
2 Destroyer flotillas (Mogador, Bourosque)

3rd Submarine Squadron (Morocco)
2 Submarine flotillas (De Lome class)

Western Mediterranean Squadron (Beirut)
Bouganville (Bouganville class sloop)
Flotilla of Torpedo boats

West African Naval Force (Ivory coast)
Sloop Savorgnan de Brazza (Bouganville class sloop)

Madagascar Squadron (Madagascar)
Torpedo boat flotilla
D'Iberville (Bouganville class sloop)
Ville d'Ys (Ville d'Ys class sloop)

Far East Squadron (Saigon)
CL Lamotte-Picquet (La Galissonierre class)
Amiral Charner (Bouganville class sloop)
Dumont d'Orville (Bouganville class sloop)
6th Counter-torpedo flotilla (Mogador class Destroyers)

Far East Submarine Command (Saigon)
3 Submarine Flotillas (De Lome, Requin class)

West Indies Squadron (Fort de France)
CV Bearn (Bearn class)
CL Montcalm (La Galissonierre class)
CL Gloire (La Galissonierre class)
6th Destroyer Flotilla (Le Hardi class)

West Indies Submarines (Fort De France)
1 Submarine flotilla (De Lome class)

Ships under construction
BB Richelieu (July 16th, 1940) (Richelieu class)
BB Jean Bart (January 19th, 1941) (Richelieu class)
BB Clemenceau (July 16th, 1941) (Richelieu class)
CV Joffre (March 16th, 1941) (Joffre class)
CL De Grasse (June 16th, 1941) (La Galissonierre class)
2 Le Hardi class DD Flotillas (December 15th, 1939)
4 Cap des Palmes class Aux. Cruisers (All due by November 11th)

really no shit

what i meant they are still german and still should be under german control

I agree, having a seperate player for the SS seems far too complicated. For one thing, the Waffen-SS units were many times simply put under Whermacht command, and deployed with Whermacht units. They relied on the Whermacht for almost all of their support, and did't have as close ties to the Luftwaffe as the Whermacht. Seeing their use as basically front-line troops a lot of the time, having Germany maintain control seems the best option.

Armee d'le Air (This is approximately 1/4 the number of machines available to form into squadrons, the rest were undergoing training and outfitting for new machines, like the DeWoitine 520, in 1939, and a large number were kept in the rear because of poor French communication)

Northern Zone of Air Operations
5 MS. 406 Squadrons
2 Bloch 151 Squadrons
5 Bloch 152 Squadrons
3 Curtiss H-75 Squadrons
5 Potez 631 Squadrons
2 LeO 451 Squadrons
2 Amiot 354/143 Squadrons
2 Breguet 693 Squadrons
24 Reconnasiance Squadrons

Eastern Zone of Air Operations
4 MS. 406 Squadrons
3 Curtiss H-75 Squadrons
1 Bloch 152 Squadron
2 Amoit 143/Bloch 200 Squadrons
2 Farman 22 Squadrons
18 Reconassaince Squadrons

Southern Zone of Air Operations
3 MS.406 Squadrons
1 Dw.510 Squadron
5 Reconaissance Squadrons

Alpine Zone of Air Operations
1 MS. 406 Squadron (2 more MS.406/Dw.520 squadrons forming)
1 Bloch 152 Squadron (+1 forming)
2 Potez 631 Squadrons
2 Glenn-Martin 167 F Squadrons
4 LeO 451 Squadrons
2 LeO 451/Bloch 210 Squadrons
5 Block 210 Squadrons
10 Reconassiance Squadrons

North African Zone of Air Operations
3 MS.406 Squadrons
2 Dw.510 Squadrons
1 Spad 510 Squadron
2 Glenn-Martin 167 F Squadrons
3 Bloch 210 Squadrons
1 Bloch 200 Squadron
1 LeO 257 Squadron
13 Reconassiance Squadrons

Levant Zone of Air Operations
1 MS.406 Squadron
1 Glenn-Martin 167 F Squadron
7 Reconassiance Squadrons

About 2 other squadrons of obselescent planes in Indochina, French West Africa, and Madagascar.

I agree, having a seperate player for the SS seems far too complicated. For one thing, the Waffen-SS units were many times simply put under Whermacht command, and deployed with Whermacht units. They relied on the Whermacht for almost all of their support, and did't have as close ties to the Luftwaffe as the Whermacht. Seeing their use as basically front-line troops a lot of the time, having Germany maintain control seems the best option.
Then why are we having a separate Africa Korp?

please, one at a time, no interuptions, list whi you are and what you want, if to people want one thing, i'll fix it. no interuptions please!

....Bump

Then why are we having a separate Africa Korp?

I didn't realize we had one, disagree with that as well, since it should be either under Italian or German control, and technically, if the start date is 1939, the Afrika Korps shouldn't exist, there shouldnt' even be an Afircan theatre (IRL Italy was not at war until June, 1940, and didn't begin the invasion until the fall).

Neuvo Rica - China



I asked first :(

I asked first :(

Come on, there are plenty of countries unaccounted for. Pick something else :)

Come on, Belgium or Poland can be just as fun as China, and we could use the other two.

I will play Brazil...

I will take Sweden. even though they stayed neutral they still had quite a large army. plus if i play them i probably wont stay neutral.

If no one had already asked, I would love to be the USSR. I have much experience RPing, and know a lot about the USSR during WWII.

If not, can I be some kind of Resistance force?

I asked first :(


Let Monocanjh be china - i didnt realise he asked first. I am gonna be busy so I probably wont have time for an RP...

can i be the Lithuanian, Latvian, and Estonian Partisons?

Let Monocanjh be china - i didnt realise he asked first. I am gonna be busy so I probably wont have time for an RP...
Its ok, I am fine with playing Brazil.

I will take Sweden. even though they stayed neutral they still had quite a large army. plus if i play them i probably wont stay neutral.

Hey, good to see ya ML :)
Think about it Italy and Sweden - Dream Team :D

Hey, good to see ya ML :)
Think about it Italy and Sweden - Dream Team :D

Yep together we will take over the world with my ikea brand weapons :gundge: .

Anyway when is this going to start and where

Yep together we will take over the world with my ikea brand weapons. :gundge:

Right on, partner!!! :p

Anyway when is this going to start and where

Thats what I'd like to know. Survo, any ideas??? Anyone??? :)

I didn't realize we had one, disagree with that as well, since it should be either under Italian or German control, and technically, if the start date is 1939, the Afrika Korps shouldn't exist, there shouldnt' even be an Afircan theatre (IRL Italy was not at war until June, 1940, and didn't begin the invasion until the fall).

Btw, if there's is to be a seperate Afrika Korps then at the beginning of the desert war it was under Italian control. :)

Hi, am anew nation called Constitutional Monarchy of The Jorhama Masa, and located in Listibaldia region (new too), can I be Arabia (Egypt, Jordan, KSA and Syria), I know that 90% of Middle East was under British Occupation, but they were fighting them.

Its ok, I am fine with playing Brazil.

In that case ill still play china :)

Hi, am anew nation called Constitutional Monarchy of The Jorhama Masa, and located in Listibaldia region (new too), can I be Arabia (Egypt, Jordan, KSA and Syria), I know that 90% of Middle East was under British Occupation, but they were fighting them.

Jerusalem, Jordan, and Kuwait were all under British Control, Iraq was nominally under British control, but still somewhat seperate (there was an attempted coup, but it was crushed), and Egypt was, likewise, nominally in the Brtish Sphere of Influence. Syria and Lebanon however were under French (and later Vichy French) control, and in fact were the sight of the most fighting between the British and natives (aside from the war against Italy) when the Allied Armies went up against the Vichy Army of the Levant, which was actually a colonial war of sorts, not really an uprising. Arabia, being mostly a desolate wasteland (without significant oil fields like today), was mostly disregarded and just a harmless neighbor in the south, while Persia would eventually be trapped between the Soviets and Western Allies.

I havent waited so long in my life for an RP to begin. For godsake we have already used 9 pages and havent even started. In my past WWII rp's I have participated in 2 maybe 3 pages were used for preparations. In my opinion Alternate WWII RP was probally one of the best out there. Stop arguing about historic facts and get it on already. Its not going to be exactly how it was in RL because its an RP!!!!!! I can understand that you want it to be historically correct but not so much that it isnt fun! An RP is what the players make of it, not the history book.

I think we should do the RP on another thread.

The thread starter should do one post saying who is waht nation, and then the war is held on a new thread.

well the guy who started this up hasent posted for a while so nothing much can happen untill then!

the best thing to do would be to create an invision free froum for the RP

I say we make a new Thread and start the RP.

I think we should do the RP on another thread.

The thread starter should do one post saying who is waht nation, and then the war is held on a new thread.

I agree, if Survo doesn't reply within at least a few days then we should begin steps to start this RP.
Although, having said that someone has to wade through the 9 pages to see who has claimed which nation because the front page hasn't be updated since the 9th of Jan. :)

Hello

Uhh there is 9 pages of rambeling.....i was going to make a WW2 rp anyways...this isn't going anywhares...is it?

Hello

Uhh there is 9 pages of rambeling.....i was going to make a WW2 rp anyways...this isn't going anywhares...is it?

read this page :headbang:

I agree, if Survo doesn't reply within at least a few days then we should begin steps to start this RP.
Although, having said that someone has to wade through the 9 pages to see who has claimed which nation because the front page hasn't be updated since the 9th of Jan. :)

well if you guys want i can make an invasion free forum to do the rp on

well if you guys want i can make an invasion free forum to do the rp on

Well, I think its a good idea but:

1. You'd have to let eveyone else know that the thread has moved and tell everyone where.
2. You'd have to sort out the mess about who claimed what country.
3. Decide what to do about the rules cos not everyone is happy about them.

--------------------------ALSO-------------------------------------------

4. Make sure that this RP has actually ground to a halt and people aren't just taking a break while they wait for the RP to take off. You don't want to create a new thread if Survo is going to post tomorrow! :)

I cant help feeling that we are being somewhat indecisive...

If Survo doesnt post by tomorrow someone start a new thread. It begins with who is what nation. From that point on there con be no going back. Each nation shall be sent a TG notifying them. Its their choice if they choose not to take part

BTW, Survo sent me a TG saying that his internet has been down lately, so he hasn't been posting much.

Maybe someone should start a new thread cos this one isn't going anywhere fast :)

If no one has by this evening I will

If no one has by this evening I will

Sure, don't forget to TG everyone when you have :D

And Me! :d

you guys can use my FOurm if you want

it already has a number of RP's and a ww2 data base and other stuff

http://s4.invisionfree.com/All_World_War_Two/index.php?act=idx

seems a great idea to me, best see what the others think first though,

I cant take this any more... I am going to start a new thread ...

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8007456#post8007456

sorry its not very long, I dont have too much time...

or you can do it at my place as you can have more features

Evinsia: Yugoslavia

Well, I think it's safe to say that this one has gone down the pan :(

Sadly, yes.

Should we start a new one?

I think we should, yes.

Please post link for real thread for the new RP.