NationStates Jolt Archive

Hi folks!

This here is Allanea, the biggest gun nut in Nationstates [probably bar none]. I am a qualified armourer and guest editor at Concealed Carry Magazine. So I know a little bit about arms. Below is a bit of knowledge which some NSers really should learn:

First, ENOUGH already with the 50-caliber, 60-caliber, and N-caliber handguns. Just leave it off. Handguns in that caliber are clumsy [consider this: the cartridge for the fabled Desert Eagle Mark XIX .50AE pistol is 33 millimeters long. Ever seen the grip of a Magnum Research Desert Eagle up close? It's very thick and not comfortable to hold] and often comparatively unreliable, designed for hunting or bear defense rather than day-to-day defensive carry. Further, training with a handgun of this kind is expensive [to keep with the Desert Eagle example, a .50AE cartridge costs from a dollar to a dollar and a half, depending on where you buy it]. This is the absolute reverse from what you need in a military arm. It is to be noted that I have known of one - ONE – special forces soldier that carried a DE into combat. But, again, Special Forces troops spend a lot of time training, something most of your army officers can't, won't want to, and just plain won't do, nor will you have money for that. I recommend using a .45 caliber semi-auto handgun, but others may favor the 9mm. YMMV.

Second, Get rid of your "sniper assault rifles". An assault rifle – due to the fact it's normally a select-fire arm – is normally incapable of long-range exact fire, with the exemption of some battle rifles, which are a different beast altogether. Now, there is such a thing out there as a Selected Marksman – the person in an infantry squad responsible for exact shooting up to 600 meters in tactical situations. He is normally armed with some form of sporting rifle. The Russians used the SVD for that purpose. I suggest an M-14, AR-15 HBAR, or an AR-10.

Third, bigger is not necessarily better. Don't try and equip your forces with the biggest gun you can muster – at mass scales, certain problems begin to creep in. First off, building a bigger gun will make it more expensive to train your forces in – remember, in most countries, recruits will probably be ignorant of shooting, and so will have to be trained from scratch – and the more recoil your OMG B1G GUNZ0RZ have, the more it will take to make them. Bigger ammunition is normally more expensive by an order of magnitude – do you know how much one of them shiny .50 BMG rounds cost? Equally, bigger ammunition is, well, bigger . How much rounds can your soldier carry?

Fourth, fully-automatic fire is not as efficient as you think. In Vietnam, it is estimated 75,000 US rounds were fired per VC casualty . In Israel, IDF troops (except some elite units] are forbidden by regulations to use the 'Auto' setting on their rifles. In 1973, when we had a terrain favorable for the use of suppressive weaponry, we spent 25,000 rounds per enemy casualty IIRC, and the Chief of Staff issued an order prohibiting it. Automatic fire is generally only efficient either in short, controlled bursts at close range, or when using a weapon designed for the purpose (old submachineguns like the Thompson or PPSh are wonderful for the purpose – their large weight and ported barrels allow terrific fire accuracy. A qualified shooter can use one to literally cut a man's body in half with long burst).

Fifth, over penetration sucks. Powerful rifle rounds are capable of plowing right through an enemy body and killing a bystander – so it's wise to avoid using FN-MAG medium machinegun indoors. It also serves as a limitation on OMG GUNZORZ.

Sixth, handguns are not the be all, end-all of self-defense – or combat. Remember – the majority of people shot at short range with a pistol survive, and are often likely to cut up, shoot, or otherwise injure the defendant before they finally die. With "hunting arms" – that is, long arms, over 70% of close range shots are lethal. With the exemption of the really crazy drug-addled berserk bastard, a .308 to the torso will end the fight – even if it does not kill the bastard – unless he's wearing some totally wanked-up armor.

Seventh, guns are intimidating as hell for some people – the average robber or other criminal will flee as soon as he understands you are armed and ready to use it if you really have to. While most soldiers will not, you must remember that when RPing – when RPing anything, not just guns. In NS, it seems sometimes deterrence is non-existant. That is rather frustrating, and I am sometimes guilty of it too.

Eigth, your infantry soldier CANNOT fix all malfunctions in his gun himself. Most malfunctions will be handled by a unit armourer. Serious stuff, like a bent barrel or similar, will be sent back to the Logistical Support Brigade, or whatever equivalent you have, to be fixed by more experienced and competent troops, or even returned to the company or factory that made it in some cases (admittedly rare).

Ninth, guns are hell on your hearing. Remember Kalashnikov? Well, the guy who designed the AK-47 is now nearly deaf from all the weapons he test-fired during his career. In the USA [where 210 million guns are present, that's a third of all the firearms on the planet], thousands of people, whether competitors, hunters, or plain out gun nuts, suffer from hearing loss. I personally know a person who, during a military engagement, had to fire a LAW-60 when totally unprepared. He now has tinnitus.

Tenth, don't confuse 'clips' and magazines. A very common mistake, it annoys those who know about such things to no end. Here's Footpad's explanation:

http://img128.exs.cx/img128/3636/m1gar48db.jpg

Clips are still used today, but usually to load magazines faster, rahter than weapons directly. These are called "charger clips" or "stripper clips", and single column for ease of use. The ones shown in the picture are however meant to be charged into the integral magazine of a M1 Garand, clip and all.


Magazines;
http://img128.exs.cx/img128/4643/mag0803he.jpg

That's all for now. Is there anything I should add?

taG

ooc: Seeing as you are an expert, I would like to ask a question. Is equipping my NS army with semi-auto rifles a good idea? I'm trying to cut military costs by cutting ammunition expenditure. If so, are there any particular models you would recommend?

Since I have made the probably most amount of custom weapons on NS, and issue a series large caliber assault weapons to my forces (although the main one is a battle rifle), I wish to make a few points;
1. yes agreed, although I once made a pistol which shoots an ~40mm anti-aircraft round :D , and issue .44 and .50 desert eagles occasionaly, 10mm or .45 cal would be much more suitible for a standard issue sidearm.

3. meh, everyone in my nation grows up around guns, hell gun ownership is mandatory, and if you think large caliber regular ammunition is expensive, you should see my army's bill for "TPM Special Ammo" ^_^

4. hence the burst setting on most modern assault weapons

5. too bad so sad, dont care, bystander shouldn't have been by standing in a war zone..... :(

9. earplugs work wonders

That's all for now. Is there anything I should add?

Nah, I think that just about covers everything!!! :D
Good points mind. . . .

ooc: Seeing as you are an expert, I would like to ask a question. Is equipping my NS army with semi-auto rifles a good idea? I'm trying to cut military costs by cutting ammunition expenditure. If so, are there any particular models you would recommend?


It's a reasonable idea. I don't do it myself, to keep my troops' options open. However, some RL armies do it, and it has been done in many nations, but most such weapons were killed off by the NATO standard. The following weapons were either used by their respective militaries as semi-auto-only arms or are otherwise available. [Well, any existing full-auto weapon can be had in semi-auto only, but the following are good in that role from a military POV.

The FN-FAL (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as24f-e.htm)

The M-14 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as15-e.htm) Originally built as full-auto, converted to semi by the US Army since it is virtually uncontrollable in full-auto mode. Used by the guy played by Charlton Heston in Omega Man. Fulton Armory (http://www.fulton-armory.com/) makes them in "modernized" versions with all the bells and whistles you expect on a modern military small arm.

P.S. AR-10's are also good in semi-auto.

P.P.S. Or you could have your favourite assault rifle in semi-auto mode.

P.P.P.S More FAL info (http://www.kimdutoit.com/dr/weblog.php?id=P1408)

This is all good. TPM, can't you just stop boasting for one minute? Do you really think that anyone gives a damn about whether you "made the most custom guns on NS" Quite frankly, i've never seen you RP, just make technology.

Allanea: The Indian INSAS is also burst or single shot only. My armed forces use the Galil 7.62, messed around with so it does semi automatic or burst fire only.

Another thing; What is .357 in millimetres? I would like to use a .357 weapon for my sidearm (my military is extremely small), but I'm not sure what it is in millimetres.. my weapon knowledge in calibre - mm is very limited as i only know what .50 is. I would also like a decent non-American sidearm - can you suggest anyway?

Thanks ;)

- Hoggeh

Well, about time someone actually said it guess it might even make as much difference as the other help threads. Kudos.

Though not qualified in anything firearms related, I read a fair bit & so I feel fairly comfortable in saying that 9mm/.45 is a good sidearm calibre. Course I only read, don't even own a gun much less had to use one in combat.

I think nearly every small arms place on NS agrees that the P226 is a solid choice, came out tops against the Beretta except in cost terms & the number of accessories available.

The .50 'WonderCannon' thing still hasn't ceased in it's desire to replace every other firearm.

-insert low whistle- Wow that is some very helpfull stuff if you as me. Even though I use FT energy weapons mostly now that will be handy with my XR rifles.

Well, I do tend to disagree with Barentsburg on the short-burst setting, and see it as quite useless, but let’s not clutter the thread with gunflaming.

Full auto is great in room-to-room urban combat. However, full auto can't hit much unless you have a heavy machinegun or above.

Hogsweat - Well, the .357 is 9mm*21mm. It is a dedicated revolver cartridge and it is shaped slightly differently than dedicated semi-auto handgun cartridge, so it will be difficult to find semi-auto handguns in that caliber [Desert Eagles come in .357, too, but are not too reliable in that caliber, less even than the .50AE]. I would suggest that Taurus is a great company making revolvers, and one of the best. Since S&W quality control is rumoured to have dropped lately, and also since the "S&W Agreement", I in fact recommend it over S&W.

Since I myself do not favour revolvers, have you considered Glock?

Ah, thanks. To be honest, I wouldn't like a revolver. For my semi auto pistols, these companies were on the list;
Sig Sauer
Glock
Beretta
I'm thinking Glock 20 (the 10mm one, right?) or some Sig Sauer.. I'm not likely for a beretta choice. Thanks for the help.

Well, my experience with hanguns, aside from reading about them, is precisely zero. I will defer to authority here, namely the legendary Jeff Cooper. It is said that for handguns, the best cartridge is the biggest you can comfortably shoot. The biggest cartridge that can be [i]consistently used by humans is the .45 [rare specimens of Homo Sapiens can in fact employ Desert Eagles in comfort, but they are rare and shouldn't be accounted for when issuing small arms to a large amount of troops. :) ]

Good, i'll go for 10mm then. Another thing, can you tell me the good points of a Bolt Action Rifle in modern battle?

Outside of precision elimination beyond 600 metres, I'm going to guess & say minimal.

Outside of precision elimination beyond 600 metres, I'm going to guess & say minimal.

And cost, ease of training, replacement times, ease of manufacture...Outside stamped-steel shit-SMGs bolt-action rifles are the giant conscript army's best friend.

It's possible to use a handgun in .69 caliber. It's not really something that one wnats to use in modern combat though. :p

The easiest Bolt Action Rifle to make would probably be a Mosin-Nagant. I actually sell them in my storefront.

Hogsweat, you want to talk about handguns, then get on AIM, I've got plenty of experience. I've shot both Glocks and Sigs, and they're very nice, but personally, I prefer the Sig (but remember, those are more pricey). Another thing you might want to add is something about how everyone seems obsessed with issuing the common infantryman a sidearm. It's not only way more expensive (especialy with people making D.Eagles standard issue, that's a $1000 gun right there), but it takes up alot of weight. Think about it, you've already got a six pound rifle, four to eight 30rd magazines, and now your throwing in a pistol with all its ammo? Not to mention the weight of body armor and other equiptment.

Now, another thing: 7.62x51mm isn't a good round to use on full auto, or anything above burst for that matter. Why? It kicks like a bitch. Take it from someone who knows first hand, I own both a 5.56mm(.223 Rem.) Saiga, and a 7.62mm HK91, and I sure as hell wouldn't use the HK for room clearing, even though the Saiga is a much cheaper gun (AK copy).

It's possible to use a handgun in .69 caliber. It's not really something that one wnats to use in modern combat though. :p

It's also possible to shoot a 9mm bullet from a pistol at rifle velocity [Webley Mars Pistol]. 'Possible' and 'practical' are often worlds apart.

This thread might warrent a sticky.

This thread might warrent a sticky.

Um, not really.

Okay, but apart from that your bolt action rifle users are going to find themselves surpressed by those capable of semi-auto fire on the modern battlefield. Right?

It's also possible to shoot a 9mm bullet from a pistol at rifle velocity [Webley Mars Pistol]. 'Possible' and 'practical' are often worlds apart.

Indeed. Seriously, people have actually used .69 caliber pistols. That was back in the era of the single shot musket though.

For some reason, I can't imagine people using a flintlock pistol on the modern battlefield.

Okay, but apart from that your bolt action rifle users are going to find themselves surpressed by those capable of semi-auto fire on the modern battlefield. Right?

See: German Campaign in Russia 1943-45

Okay, but apart from that your bolt action rifle users are going to find themselves surpressed by those capable of semi-auto fire on the modern battlefield. Right?

Probably, unless you're in a situation where for whatever reason the enemy can't use that advantage. Remember, 'the modern battlefield' and the NS battlefield can be worlds apart.

Allanea, what do you think about the M14 EBR produced by Sage International, Ltd. (as shown at this year's Shootout At Blackwater). It looks damn pretty, but is it enough to make the M14 a reliable squad level tactical sniper system?

What of the LeMas Blended Metal Ammo (I know it's not good for ordinary grunts, since a case of friendly fire or accidental discharge of the carrying weapon is hence more likely to result in a mortal injury...leading to "limited deployment" in the WA military)?

Any comment on the 5.56 (possibly as boosted by LeMas)/6.5 (in the Grendel)/6.8(by Barrett) debate?

PS Loved the rant, thanks for doing that.

The inevitable catch-all clause, no offence, of RL & NS battlefields. Valid though it is for anyone who isn't well informed you're left kinda stuck.

The inevitable catch-all clause, no offence, of RL & NS battlefields. Valid though it is for anyone who isn't well informed you're left kinda stuck.

Um...What?

Nearly all aspects of using real world ideas must face the fact that NS doesn't really obey those rules, not even slightly.
As such there could in all possibility be several times when bolt action users find themselves able to operate without the problem of being suppressed by an opponent with superior volume of fire at their disposal. As in semi-automatic weapons.

for pistols, the .45 Colt 1911 is still very good. Many claim that it is too hard to shoot, but most people I know who have used them said that is just BS and that it is a good gun.

For assault rifles, I use a variant of the new XM8, although M16A2s are used in some divisions still. Special ops troopers use the MP-10 in my nation and find it very sufficient.

Nearly all aspects of using real world ideas must face the fact that NS doesn't really obey those rules, not even slightly.
As such there could in all possibility be several times when bolt action users find themselves able to operate without the problem of being suppressed by an opponent with superior volume of fire at their disposal. As in semi-automatic weapons.

Yah, but the chief point was it's far more likely that you'd encounter conditions that would favour a force with bolt-action rifles in NS [chiefly that said force would have likely had a hideous numerical advantage]. It's worth recalling also that a trained soldier can fire more aimed shots in a minute with an Enfield No. 4 than the cyclic fire rate of an M1 Garand.

That I did not know, however the crucial words are 'trained' & 'numerical' but regardless it's too subjective to be worth discussing, needless to say I doubt I'll face such a situation.

OOC:*takes notes*

The research Ive done is minimal but non existant. I totally agree with the original thread. If I remember the British M16 uses small rounds which penentrate armour better, kill less, but still incapacitate (which is preferable anyway, as casualties are unable to fight, but clog up infrastructure and logistics like mad).

Blended metal is very often fatal, its effective, illegal in RL and so probably no good for "good" nations. Remember that dead people dont need food, supplies or medical attention so killing isnt all that matters.

British M16? ;)

Anyhow, the "wound, not kill" thing is an oft-repeated myth, especially when dealing with guerillas. Observe: You are a soldier. You are attacked by an opponent. You wound him, but often, the adrenalin of the fight is enough to let him shoot you. Wasn't blowing him away outright preferable.

This is a link to REAL information on 5.56, the M-16 round:

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

.....If I remember the British M16 uses small rounds which penentrate armour better, kill less, but still incapacitate (which is preferable anyway, as casualties are unable to fight, but clog up infrastructure and logistics like mad).
......
Remember that dead people dont need food, supplies or medical attention so killing isnt all that matters.

All well & good but I'm sure someone has mentioned somewhere about complaints from soldiers that the lack of knockdown power has been a bit of a problem, sure you've hit the guy but when he can still fire a gun what difference have you actually made?
However the theory of wounding soldiers over killing them as been proved, although in a different method via the use of 'shoe mines'.
Basically a small wooden box filled with just enough explosive to take your foot off & leave you a terrible wretched casualty.
Reference: Monte Cassino 1943

Tom Joad: The Vietnamese have been fond of a device which was basically a nail and a cartridge in a bamboo cane. When a soldier would step on it, it would detonate the cartridge, and fire it at low velocity - slower than an actual gun, but enough to break a foot.

This was defeated eventually by adding steel or aluminium into shoe soles - since the round was very slow.

Bah, I'll stick with my good ol' WWII reference. It worked just as good, witness testaments to that are all over the place. Course you can always look to the Vietnamese for inventive solutions for killing/maiming/torturing.

OOC:Blended metal is very often fatal, its effective, illegal in RL and so probably no good for "good" nations. Remember that dead people dont need food, supplies or medical attention so killing isnt all that matters.

It's not illegal yet...the US DoD just forbade US soldiers from using it until studies could be completed...many seem to believe that USSOCOM will eventually adopt the round while normal soldiers will remain under the ban. The point of occupational warfare is not to have the enemy soldiers happy with what you're doing, it's to kill those people and make the others happy with you...a "good" nation should still not have too much of a problem with these rounds.

Allanea, any comment on the topics I asked about above?

Im sure there was a thread mentioning them and they have been illegal fgor a very long time and aren't approved by many nations. My nation is more concerned with defeating the enemy than upsetting soldiers, who are just doing their job for the wrong side.

However IM post modern I do use wanked up armour, it's expensive and crude and requires maintenance despite being possible in the next few years IRL but it makes assault rifles a lot less effective. You have to get a joint or the gap in the face for the eyes.

Allanea, what do you think about the M14 EBR produced by Sage International, Ltd. (as shown at this year's Shootout At Blackwater). It looks damn pretty, but is it enough to make the M14 a reliable squad level tactical sniper system?

What of the LeMas Blended Metal Ammo (I know it's not good for ordinary grunts, since a case of friendly fire or accidental discharge of the carrying weapon is hence more likely to result in a mortal injury...leading to "limited deployment" in the WA military)?

Any comment on the 5.56 (possibly as boosted by LeMas)/6.5 (in the Grendel)/6.8(by Barrett) debate?

PS Loved the rant, thanks for doing that.

Intro: I have very limited gun experience myself due to %^$% Israeli gun laws.

On a squad-level, I see no reason of not using a Tactical Marksman rifle for a Tactical Marsmans' job - a sniperized version of your ordinary rifle - although M-14's are already used for urban sniping in Iraq and the West Bank.

The Allaean Armed Forces are employing the 6.5mm Grendel round, but I will not bitch at you for using something else. We also use blended-metal ammunition, but it makes sense for us since in Allanea, gun safety - and gun nuttery - is socially encouraged, and so our troops, having grown up as gun nuts, are less likely to have various discharges and so forth.

Hi folks!

This here is Allanea, the biggest gun nut in Nationstates [probably bar none]. I am a qualified armourer and guest editor at Concealed Carry Magazine. So I know a little bit about arms. Below is a bit of knowledge which some NSers really should learn:

Welcome.

I personally know a person who, during a military engagement, had to fire a LAW-60 when totally unprepared. He now has tinnitus.


Never heard of any LAW-60, are you refering to the M72 LAW? The only LAW-(number) I know of is the Brit LAW-80.

If so who calls it the LAW-60? :)

Also, in NS "world", the Geneva convention doesn't really exist. So hollowpoints/softpoints can be used, as well as hydrashocks, Semi-Jacketed Exposed Core, and other RL-outlawed ammunitions.

However, in RL, such ammunition can be used by Special Forces/Counter Terrorists, because they don't fall under the convention's "standards".

*just thought I'd throw my two cents in*

Hi folks!

This here is Allanea, the biggest gun nut in Nationstates [probably bar none]. I am a qualified armourer and guest editor at Concealed Carry Magazine. So I know a little bit about arms. Below is a bit of knowledge which some NSers really should learn:

Intro: I have very limited gun experience myself due to %^$% Israeli gun laws.


?

Do you mean wapon types outside the IDF inventory or did you just make a whoopsie? ;)

5. too bad so sad, dont care, bystander shouldn't have been by standing in a war zone..... :(

Oh well, to bad that "bystander" was you best buddy from B-company... can't make an omelet...

Also, expect heavy insurgencies in any areas you occupy. ;)


9. earplugs work wonders

They also make you hear less and so impair your tactical awareness of any situation.

Though there are a few "active" hearing protection devices available today that remedy that somewhat.

I am qualified to maintain and fix four types of IDF basic infantry arms. Beyond that my knowledge is theoretical. If you do not believe I wrote for CCM, why, just contact them. :)

Also, in NS "world", the Geneva convention doesn't really exist. So hollowpoints/softpoints can be used, as well as hydrashocks, Semi-Jacketed Exposed Core, and other RL-outlawed ammunitions.

However, in RL, such ammunition can be used by Special Forces/Counter Terrorists, because they don't fall under the convention's "standards".

*just thought I'd throw my two cents in*

Id like to add at this point that those "good" or "face" nations that populate NS might still follow the sort of guidelines the Geneva convention lays down anyway. Because their nations value human rights etc. My nation for instance is very picky with the torture it uses (sleep deprivation is the most effective anyway) and wouldnt use those rounds. Because we'd rather confuse our enemy and move quickly through the chaos but also wed rather not kill thousands of people for no reason.

Hogsweat - Well, the .357 is 9mm*21mm. It is a dedicated revolver cartridge and it is shaped slightly differently than dedicated semi-auto handgun cartridge, so it will be difficult to find semi-auto handguns in that caliber [Desert Eagles come in .357, too, but are not too reliable in that caliber, less even than the .50AE]. I would suggest that Taurus is a great company making revolvers, and one of the best. Since S&W quality control is rumoured to have dropped lately, and also since the "S&W Agreement", I in fact recommend it over S&W.

Since I myself do not favour revolvers, have you considered Glock?

Try 9x33mm for .357 Magnum. The metric designation is 9x33mmR (R for "rimmed" or "revolver", can't remember which).

SIG/Sauer has a nice "auto" .357 SIG if you like the calibre, its "almost" equivalent to a standard load .357 Magnum in power, but is really a necked down hotload .40S&W.

Supposedly early .357SIG cartridges had a problem of casing and projectile separating while loading into the chamber though...

I am qualified to maintain and fix four types of IDF basic infantry arms. Beyond that my knowledge is theoretical. If you do not believe I wrote for CCM, why, just contact them. :)

I'm onto you.... ;)


I'm not "disbelieving" you so long as what you write makes sense, and when it doesn't, I'll ask what you mean.

No need getting defensive. 8)

I thought it was 9x32mm?

for pistols, the .45 Colt 1911 is still very good. Many claim that it is too hard to shoot, but most people I know who have used them said that is just BS and that it is a good gun.

For assault rifles, I use a variant of the new XM8, although M16A2s are used in some divisions still. Special ops troopers use the MP-10 in my nation and find it very sufficient.

The M1911A1 suffered a while from poorly manufactured ammunition.

The slide on the gun is also heavy and makes the gun "slap" more when firing, throwing it of target more than absolutely neccesary. There are "aftermarket" slides that are made of aluminum, but then they are usually more sensitive to pressure/recoil differences an gives less reliability and tolerance for various loadings.

Gererally speaking of the .45ACP, talking standard loads that is, ballistic drop makes the .45acp hard to use against moving targets at range compared with f e the 9x19mmP.

I thought it was 9x32mm?

Its 9x33. I promise. ;)

To add to Footpads comments:

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm

However, remember that handguns are usually employed at very short ranges, most often under ten meters.

OOC:*takes notes*

The research Ive done is minimal but non existant. I totally agree with the original thread. If I remember the British M16 uses small rounds which penentrate armour better, kill less, but still incapacitate (which is preferable anyway, as casualties are unable to fight, but clog up infrastructure and logistics like mad).

Blended metal is very often fatal, its effective, illegal in RL and so probably no good for "good" nations. Remember that dead people dont need food, supplies or medical attention so killing isnt all that matters.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Here, read up on wound ballistics.

As for "Les Mas", I'll consider them snake-oil salesmen a while longer thankyouverymuch... they do not let outside experts test the round, something they have no reason to refuse since they have the patent...

Either the round is designed in a way it would immediately be banned, or it doesn't work as advertised in all conditions necessary...

IMHO that is.

I have an idea for a gun that would be by far the most common in my army, but I dont really know enough about guns to make any good specs. Allanea would you mind just throwing some basic specs together off of this general idea. It doesn't need to be an amazing uber l33t rifle.

A bit heavier then the average assault rifle
Semi Auto and 3 Bullet Burst Configs
Higher Calibur (Bigger more deadly bullets) then average assault rifle
Lower Clip capasity 12-20 maybe
Easy to make
Decent to train with
Higher Fatality rate then normal when a target is hit

I know that is very vague, but if you are up to a challenge I would be very grateful.

Such a weapon exists. Use the H&K G3, configured to 3-round bursts. :)

To add to Footpads comments:

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm

However, remember that handguns are usually employed at very short ranges, most often under ten meters.

Yes, thats true. F e the Marines in Iraq requested sidearms mainly for indoor use during searches house clearing (an M16A4 is still pretty cumbersome due to its length when entering through a doorway, a handgun is more "handy", excuse the pun...).

I'd prefer the 9mm mainly because of the lower recoil impulse, capability to reacquire the target faster and the larger number of rounds carried relative to gripsize.

But this is just a personal preference, not a claim of 9mm superiority, at least not in handguns (I'd make the claim in the case of SMG's though).

Such a weapon exists. Use the H&K G3, configured to 3-round bursts. :)

The G3 tends to jam profusely, in my knowledge and "experience." Although some say the A3 fixed this, it still has more of a tendency to jam then say...the M4.

Such a weapon exists. Use the H&K G3, configured to 3-round bursts. :)

And I'd go for a 2 round burst, the third one never hits anything but air.

The G3 ain't that cheap though... and its a complicated gun thats less than super-easy to maintain...

FNC derivative in 7.62mmN or 6.8mm remington?

QUESTION: Would you consider it acceptable if one were to use these typically incorrectly-used firearms and yet role-play the typical problems (IE very uncomfortable .50's, paying high for .50 ammunition, everything that I have managed to forget seconds after reading)?

http://img44.exs.cx/img44/6688/ak5new4xx.jpg

Caliber: 6.8x43mm Remington SPC
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt, selective, single shot or two round burst.
Overall length: standard model 1000 mm (780 mm with folded butt);
Barrel length: 450mm
Weight with empty magazine: 4.1 kg
Magazine capacity: 25 rounds (accept all STANAG-compatible magazines)
cROF: 700 rpm
Effective range: 550 meters

The gun is capable of;
Firing BTU rifle grenades
Attaching a 40mm M203, M203PIP and H&K grenade launcher
Mounting any M7 compatible bayonet
Mounting Picatinny rails (RIS/RAS)
Carrying handle/optic sight (mounted in picture) $101.96

Price ~$1100

I chose the 6.8mm over the 7.62mm because it can (reputedly) use the ordinary STANAG magazines, a slight cost saver.

OOC: In the end most people dont care, an assault rifle is an assault rifle. Obviously having better gear can be RPed and then people pay attention. The rifle details only matter if being used as part of the RP, tactic or to gain an edge over the enemy. In these cases, you should know roughly what you are talking about I guess.

And I'd go for a 2 round burst, the third one never hits anything but air.

The G3 ain't that cheap though... and its a complicated gun thats less than super-easy to maintain...

FNC derivative in 7.62mmN or 6.8mm remington?
Does the third one never hit anything? I know that past the third, a round is essentially wasted, but I thought that a three-round burst typically hits all three shots (if there are no other circumstances, such as a terrible shot). What factor, exactly, though, causes most misses after the second/third round? It's a mystery to me, because from what I have heard, even an expert shooter using a low-recoil weapon will miss all shots after the third.

Does the third one never hit anything? I know that past the third, a round is essentially wasted, but I thought that a three-round burst typically hits all three shots (if there are no other circumstances, such as a terrible shot). What factor, exactly, though, causes most misses after the second/third round? It's a mystery to me, because from what I have heard, even an expert shooter using a low-recoil weapon will miss all shots after the third.

We aren't talking in absolutes here, of course you can fire off your entire magazine and hit with every shot. That is however in most tactical situations very unlikely.

One must define "low recoil" and "target", what range it is at and wether it moves. cyclic rate of fire also plays a role.

H&K seems to move towards two round bursts, but that may depend on police agencies wishing less lead in the air more than anything.

In rifle-calibre and sized weapon I find it unlikely that the shooter would have much use for the later rounds in any burst since it will recoil rather badly... Swedish troops still issued with the AK4 (based on the G3 series) were taught "mejning" (translates roughly into "schything") when using it full auto in CQB.

Picture of "mejning".
http://www.insatsplutonen.se/img/images/040908_7.jpg

As can be seen in the picture this is hardly an accurate way of firing your rifle, but its the only way to control the gun.

One must define "low recoil" and "target", what range it is at and wether it moves. cyclic rate of fire also plays a role.
Well, I checked my source for my previous information. Did not reference the possibility of "low recoil," as I had originally thought. Your answer does explain a lot, though. Thanks.

I'm curious, does anyone's IC military use the G-11 rifle? I think that's a decent choice, especially with its 3 round burst function. Also, the caseless ammo eliminates the possibility of jamming from a stuck cartridge.

If you're looking for a cheap conscript semi-automatic rifle, I'd recommend the SKS, because of its simplicity, ease of manufacture, and reliability.

I'm curious, does anyone's IC military use the G-11 rifle? I think that's a decent choice, especially with its 3 round burst function. Also, the caseless ammo eliminates the possibility of jamming from a stuck cartridge.

If you're looking for a cheap conscript semi-automatic rifle, I'd recommend the SKS, because of its simplicity, ease of manufacture, and reliability.

Caseless ammo also costs more than standard ammunition, and is more rare (most rifles don't use caseless).

Our two main military weapons are the Famas G2 and the G3a3, something for urban warface, and something for desert/mountain/plains/tundra/etc combat, which is more common with large militaries facing each other.

Trying to make an indigenous 7.62x51mm bullpup rifle, having some trouble though.

I'm curious, does anyone's IC military use the G-11 rifle? I think that's a decent choice, especially with its 3 round burst function. Also, the caseless ammo eliminates the possibility of jamming from a stuck cartridge.

If you're looking for a cheap conscript semi-automatic rifle, I'd recommend the SKS, because of its simplicity, ease of manufacture, and reliability.

Once I get my "TOE/OOB/Storefront" up Footpads will (well, a "variant" or "evolution" anyway...).

I'm a little sceptic regarding the 4.73x33mmCL though... will 1400 Joule be enough to punch through body armour?

With AP-F loads (armour piercing-frangible), stopping power won't be a problem, but I'm worried about the low energy value. Since the cartridge is lightweight it will bleed energy pretty fast and lose what penetration it has too...

And if the round misfire, you bet you get a stoppage even in a G11. Thats why they put the "wheel" on it, if you rotate that the mechanism will feed out the cartridge.

As long as guns go "click" or "bang" you're fine. Its when they go "Pfft" you're in trouble. ;)

Caseless ammo also costs more than standard ammunition, and is more rare (most rifles don't use caseless).

Per unit caseless ammo costs less to manufacture, its also cheaper in materials. You just mold or glue the propellent onto the projectile.

Even if the RDX or RDX2 proppelant is slightly more expensive than most types of propellant, the savings are more than made up for by not having to manufacture a brass casing...

Of course this only becomes relevant once mass production starts. Small series are always more expensive to manufacture and so on...


The reason why nobody has switched to caseless in real life is mainly logistic inertia. The overheating chamber issue was solved on the G11 before its termination. Its more that you can't just buy a new weapon, you need to provide training for its use and maintenance, you have to build a new stockpile of spares and munitions, and if you got old stuff you have to get rid of that as well.

All those things costs money. Wouldn't it be wiser to use that elswhere, f e provide more training, than get an only slightly better smallarm?


Oh, and if I ever RP with some of you people buying handfuls of stuff from everywhere and field 129 different types of tanks... I'll really spank you with the "logistics" club! ;)

I stick with one type of tank, one (generally) type of rifle, and so on and so forth.

I stick with one type of tank, one (generally) type of rifle, and so on and so forth.

Well, trying to use the same "rifle" for sniping and CQB may be pushing things, but you got the idea. One should try to field as few types as possible while still remain effective.

Having fewer types means having to supply fewer types if ammunition, spares, fuel and training, all that saves moey that can buy more units, training or additional capability in other areas.

Tactics wins battles, strategy campaign, but logistics wins wars.

Well, trying to use the same "rifle" for sniping and CQB may be pushing things, but you got the idea. One should try to field as few types as possible while still remain effective.

Having fewer types means having to supply fewer types if ammunition, spares, fuel and training, all that saves moey that can buy more units, training or additional capability in other areas.

Tactics wins battles, strategy campaign, but logistics wins wars.

No, I don't use the same rifle for sniping and such. Note the "(generally)." That refers to usually one rifle per role. However, we do have a few different sniper rifles for different uses (Anti-light vehicle, anti-personnel, etc.)

Tag.

I'm curious, does anyone's IC military use the G-11 rifle? I think that's a decent choice, especially with its 3 round burst function. Also, the caseless ammo eliminates the possibility of jamming from a stuck cartridge.

If you're looking for a cheap conscript semi-automatic rifle, I'd recommend the SKS, because of its simplicity, ease of manufacture, and reliability.
I'm fairly certain Lavenrunz fields the G-11.

Theres nothing wrong with the G11, considering nations which military uses the gun also produces its caseless 4.7mm ammo. In fact, many gun references I have say that the G11 is a comfortable shooter, very accurate, and with a skilled shooter.. can fire its three round burst with dead on accuracy and a high rate of fire.

Well, I'll personally have to agree with Allanea's nineth point. Back when I signed for a military camp program in China (though I'm still not an dult obviously :P ), we fired a AK47-based gun without any ear protection, and I personally could say that it is pretty loud, aside from the recoil (my ears were ringing for some time). We were forbidden from firing automatic, but semi-automatic doesn't hurt either except from accuracy and the continuous kick on your shoulder. The 7.62mm rounds were also quite damaging, and I recall that the white boards that were put up against the wall aren't quite white cardboards anymore after the shots. That is to say that normal people can still fire the gun, but if you decide to let every five-year-old kid to use an AK-47 as a desparate attempt to defend your capital, it isn't going to be a very good decision. Neither will you have your six year olds in the capital firing AK-47 on full automatic mode and expect them to hit anything.

Remember though, pistols can jam too, and that will happen especially if you give something like a M4 to every citizen who never shot anything in their lives and expect that they have infinite ammunition reserves in addition to having their gun still stay intact without any jam or additional problems.

Another thing about heavy rounds for rifles (such as 7.62mm):
They are a logistics drain. They may seem not much, but if you give 120 rounds to every soldier, they will weigh more than if you give 120 5.56mm rounds to them instead. Coupled with many people's tendency to include armour that will probably defeat every small arm ammunition existing in the RL world (expect .50 cal), you will not have your soldiers going rambo and firing fully-auto with a 7.62mm and expect them to have a good amount of ammo in reserve, unless you are prepared to add more ammunition (which will weigh more) which in many cases will require you to sacrifice other cruical forms of supplies, such as and not limited to food, water, medical supplies, tools, or extra equipment. Even if you have something like a Humvee with more, don't assume that the ammo box is something where you just put your hand in and expect to grab some extra full magazine or links of ammo. Remember that they are produced by your factories (or taken from the enemy in some cases), not spawned from a 4D world randomly.

As for the G-11, I personally include them on the "allowed weapon list" for my SFs, although in many cases my troops will either get the O-18 long barreled version (modified M8 with 6.8mm ammo) or the carbine in urban or other close-in combat.

Well put Omz, I dont think anyone should go with the 7.62 over the 5.56, 5.56 has had many bad-raps laid against it since Vietnam (most of which are not true, or have been fixed-AKA M16 problems). The .223 bullet (5.56) will get the job done, especially nowdays when they have .223's capable of stopping inside the target, not going through like the standard ones do.

As for the 10mm bullet pointed out earlier in this thread, my advice about it would be to stick with .45 or 9mm for your militaries... 10mm and .357 are too powerful, unless of course you wish to retain them for use in Special Forces.

Well, as people have asked, I have no problem of people going against this advice. I only want them to think of it when doing RP.

For exmple, a lot of my military officers - once they are of sufficient rank - get issued either Desert Eagles or the Allanean custom-made Desert Seagull [a LAR Grizzly .50 handgun, ported barrel, polymer frame,] which is more reliable. Most prefer lighter handguns or do not intend to use it and carry it for show off[REMF's, that is].

And my President carries twin gold-plated Desert Eagles, but he is a demigod.

And the G-11: DON'T USE IT. The original G-11 was a very unreliable design, for the simple reason that when a cartridge case is expelled from the rifle, some [a lot] of the heat leaves with it [ever touched a spent casing?]. In a G-11, all the heat is transferred to the bolt. Hilarity ensues.

Well, as people have asked, I have no problem of people going against this advice. I only want them to think of it when doing RP.

For exmple, a lot of my military officers - once they are of sufficient rank - get issued either Desert Eagles or the Allanean custom-made Desert Seagull [a LAR Grizzly .50 handgun, ported barrel, polymer frame,] which is more reliable. Most prefer lighter handguns or do not intend to use it and carry it for show off[REMF's, that is].

And my President carries twin gold-plated Desert Eagles, but he is a demigod.

And the G-11: DON'T USE IT. The original G-11 was a very unreliable design, for the simple reason that when a cartridge case is expelled from the rifle, some [a lot] of the heat leaves with it [ever touched a spent casing?]. In a G-11, all the heat is transferred to the bolt. Hilarity ensues.

Any advice about the 7.62x51mm bullpup?

And the G-11: DON'T USE IT. The original G-11 was a very unreliable design, for the simple reason that when a cartridge case is expelled from the rifle, some [a lot] of the heat leaves with it [ever touched a spent casing?]. In a G-11, all the heat is transferred to the bolt. Hilarity ensues.

Actually, no it doesn't, not for a while. The propellant used in the caseless ammo has a higher cook-off temperature than nitrocellulose powder.

The G-11 also has 90 catridges that are carried on the rifle.

For the same amount of weight, a man the G-11 can carry twice as many rounds as a man with the M-16 too.

I don't believe any NS nation uses the AUG Bullpup as it's primary rifle. The following weapons are on my SF list; Can anyone tell me if there are some ineffective ones there;
1.) M4A1
2.) IMI Galil 5.56
3.) AK103
4.) M14 [Sniper Variant]
5.) G36A3
6.) Barrett .50
7.) Accuracy International L96A1
8.) IMI TAR 21
9.) L85A1
10.) INSAS
11.) FN F2000
12.) FN FAL
13.) Franchi SPAS 15
14.) Remington 11-87
15.) FN P90
16.) MP5 (all variants)
17.) FAMAE S.A.F
18.) Steyr TMP
19.) AUG Para
20.) Uzi
And pretty much every handgun in existance. There's some more SMG's but I can't be bothered to name them; Are there any there that are really ineffective weapons?

Looks good...If I may make a recomendation-

Stay away from Glocks. I have fired several, and they all, in pure honesty, sucked. The magazines swell under heat, and dont kick out when hit the mag release. If your goal is to empty a mag and get a new one in quick (which in many casses, if you are reduced to using your hand gun instead of a rifle or shotgun, is what you are trying to do), then its gonna suck when you have to pull the mag out. Further, they are no more acurate at range than a Sig, Colt Family, or Beretta. Most handgun battles occur within, or just a few feet outside of, arm range. If you cant point and hit something that close...then you shouldn't be shooting. Also, the polymer frame is crap. I dont care if its light weight (I'm a big guy, so a heavy wieght pistol, I.E. a .45, doesn't bother me at all), if you drive a truck over it, its gonna crack, and suck...and when squeezing the gun, I could pinch the hand grip together...That is crap. Give me a Sig or Colt/Kimber/Wilson Arms anyday.

I also find the use of high caliber sniper rifles in the anti personel role insane. I know a military can afford it, but do you honestly want to waste a .50cal or 20mm round to kill a person at distance, when a .338 Lapua or .308 WinMag will do the job just fine? If the shot hits you in the head or near the heart area, it doesn't matter if its a .308 or a .50, your target will die. I only use large caliber weaponry in the anti-armor role. AP snipers all use .338s, but are soon going to switch to the Cheyenne .408. A little big, but not uber big.

When it comes to weaponry, my military/police all use locally produced versions of real world weapons, with slight modifications. My main ground force uses Halo tech...but Im about to drop that cuz EVERYONE is using Halo Tech now a days, and use another FT ground force. My SF units are all modern plus 2 or 3...And use the real world weapons with slight modifications (size, ammo capacity, caliber, etc.).

Finally, when it comes to FT v MT...its all based on what you prefere. It kinda goes back to the large caliber sniper rifles vs lower caliber...A uber hand held electro magnon field disrupter laser blast to the head will kill you just as dead as an AK-47 burst.

Well, as people have asked, I have no problem of people going against this advice. I only want them to think of it when doing RP.

For exmple, a lot of my military officers - once they are of sufficient rank - get issued either Desert Eagles or the Allanean custom-made Desert Seagull [a LAR Grizzly .50 handgun, ported barrel, polymer frame,] which is more reliable. Most prefer lighter handguns or do not intend to use it and carry it for show off[REMF's, that is].

Hopefully they get additional training (and when needed hand-replacements when finding the grip to large, wich most would. Or do you comission officers by hand size only? Feed them anabolic steroids or growth hormones as kids? ;)

And my President carries twin gold-plated Desert Eagles, but he is a demigod.

Hmm... phallic issues perhaps? :P ;)


And the G-11: DON'T USE IT. The original G-11 was a very unreliable design, for the simple reason that when a cartridge case is expelled from the rifle, some [a lot] of the heat leaves with it [ever touched a spent casing?]. In a G-11, all the heat is transferred to the bolt. Hilarity ensues.

As I said, that issue was solved before the project was terminated, partly by coating the internal surfaces of the action and changing the propellant compound somewhat. The "problem" was that the ammunition would cook off because of heat, wich has a tendency to build up in caseless weapons. Weapons using cased ammunition have one advantage, the casing acts like a 2heat sink" and removes quite a bit of the heat produced by the propellant. not all in any way, but quite a lot.

The G11 production run was terminated because the Cold War ended and Germany wished to use the funds for rebuilding East Germany, it was also recognized that they would fail to make NATO adopt the loading as standard and that adopting the round would add logistical strain, i e they could not have drawn ammunition from a fellow NATO partner in a joint op.

I believe the few hundreds of the rifle actually made was issued to some type of border recon troops, and served until replaced by the G36.

As to hot casings... my soldiers school "fighting mate" made a habit to "shoot" me with his ejected casings... he also shot me in the face with the blast from a blank once...

He was such a retard... :s

No, I don't use the same rifle for sniping and such. Note the "(generally)." That refers to usually one rifle per role. However, we do have a few different sniper rifles for different uses (Anti-light vehicle, anti-personnel, etc.)

The correct term for "heavy sniper rifles" are AMR, or "anti-materiel rifles".

Looks good...If I may make a recomendation-

Stay away from Glocks. I have fired several, and they all, in pure honesty, sucked. The magazines swell under heat, and dont kick out when hit the mag release. If your goal is to empty a mag and get a new one in quick (which in many casses, if you are reduced to using your hand gun instead of a rifle or shotgun, is what you are trying to do), then its gonna suck when you have to pull the mag out. Further, they are no more acurate at range than a Sig, Colt Family, or Beretta. Most handgun battles occur within, or just a few feet outside of, arm range. If you cant point and hit something that close...then you shouldn't be shooting. Also, the polymer frame is crap. I dont care if its light weight (I'm a big guy, so a heavy wieght pistol, I.E. a .45, doesn't bother me at all), if you drive a truck over it, its gonna crack, and suck...and when squeezing the gun, I could pinch the hand grip together...That is crap. Give me a Sig or Colt/Kimber/Wilson Arms anyday.

If it sucked so bad, why did so many armies and police departements all over the world adopt it?

And I've actually seen a G17 (Swedish Pistol 88, exact same thing) run over by a truck, it was scuffed, thats all.

I had two beefs with it though, the trigger group is a bit heavy off the shelf. But I cut my teeth on a double action revolver (a .38 S&W M&P, called revolver m/58 here) so I had no problem adapting... The other issue is that the provided sights suck. But they are not hard to replace either (I wonder why Glock stubbornly keeps the old ones and dont just glue on a better set to begin with...).

The Glock is relatively cheap handgun (in 9x19mmP anyway) and just about as reliable as a handgun can get. It can also handle some pretty onery ammunition types such as the Swedish m/39B AP, a type wich caused a ruckus in the USA when SEAL's began breaking M9's with it.

The m/39B projectile doesn't compress as much as "normal" ball ammunition because of its thick tombak steel mantle, wich causes a larger lateral extension of the barrel. The M9 suffered slide failures after as few as 500 rounds fired.... the G17 handles around 5000 before wear gets to bad and it needs rebuilding... Glock has actually fired over 20 000 rounds of ordinary (Austrian service issue) FMJ without a failure in two specimen of the G17...

I also find the use of high caliber sniper rifles in the anti personel role insane. I know a military can afford it, but do you honestly want to waste a .50cal or 20mm round to kill a person at distance, when a .338 Lapua or .308 WinMag will do the job just fine? If the shot hits you in the head or near the heart area, it doesn't matter if its a .308 or a .50, your target will die. I only use large caliber weaponry in the anti-armor role. AP snipers all use .338s, but are soon going to switch to the Cheyenne .408. A little big, but not uber big.


Longest range real-life sniper kill was made in Afghanistan in 2002 with a McMillan TAC-50 by a Canadian guy, and he hit his target at almost 2500 meters.

The heavy projectile lets it keep its kinetic momentum longer (when talking about the same kinetic energy, light and fast bleeds it faster than heavy and slow), makes it less sensitive to windrift and allows for that extreme range sniping that smaller calibre weapons just wont perform well in.

In 99% of all sniping duty you would be just as well or rather better off with an ordinary 7.62x51mmN bolt-action rifle though. Snipers actually scout a heck of a lot more than they shoot...

I've been sneaking through the bush with a GPMG, and those weigh just as much as the AMR's does... its damn exhausting... its a lot easier to apply effective fieldcraft with a shorter and lighter weapon.

Finally, when it comes to FT v MT...its all based on what you prefere. It kinda goes back to the large caliber sniper rifles vs lower caliber...A uber hand held electro magnon field disrupter laser blast to the head will kill you just as dead as an AK-47 burst.

Yeah, well the trajectory of the beam weapon is much superior, it would also be a true "point and shoot" weapon, since ballistic drop and flight time is completely irrelevant at the speed of light.

Well...

Unless you're standing on a black hole... but then you have more immediate problems to think about than how to hit with your lasgun. ;)

Hogsweat, No. 9, the British L85-- is a very inefficient gun, proved so off of the production lines by British use in battle. Jammed easily and was only partly practical when built by hand and with perfect machined parts. They prefer American guns (and German) now.

They prefer American guns (and German) now.

Um, even though the SA-80 / L85 A2 is still standard?

[Being pedantic, one might also point out what a piece of shit the M16A1 was...If the L85 ever reaches A3 / 4 version it might actually turn into a good weapon, never know]

A couple things worth dropping into this thread.

Many law enforcement agencies in TX are adopting the .40 cal and the .357 Sig for duty use. The .357 SIG is an interesting round because the necked down shell actually reduces the chance of a jam. Apparently this is a good weapon because the Texas Rangers have adopted it as their official sidearm. Many of these guys still carry the 1911 .45, but the .357 SIG has made an impact. Now it has to also be noted the lack of knock-down power the 9mm round displays. Granted you can carry more 9mm rounds (15)+1 to the .45 ACP (8)+1 you still have a considerable lack of power. Someone also pointed out earlier which needs to be said again pistol combat usually happens within 10 meters so long range accuracy is a mute point (unless you trick shoot). I own both a 9mm and a .45 ACP, when the chips are down I will put my money on the Colt. To borrow a line from my uncle (veteran), "you have to be impressed with a Colt when the rangemaster dunks it in a bucket of mud pulls it out and it still fires everytime."

Oh and one other tidbit I notice someone said the longest "confirmed sniper kill" was 2300 yards by a Canadian? Well that isn't the longest. Carlos Hathcock had a confirmed kill in Vietnam of 2500 yards with a Browning 50 cal. He is the link to his book if you need it: Carlos Hathcock (http://navyseals.zoovy.com/product/DVLT009)


-Hawdawg

[OOC: Look, I don't know if anyone has said this already, but I'm not really going to read back through every single post to check. That'd be time-consuming, and, annoyingly so if it turns out that someone did say what I'm about to say - but not wholly...or worse: nobody has.

Conjecture: a complicated weapon is a near-useless weapon on a battlefield.

Reasoning: Vietnam. AK-47 outperforms more advanced US hardware consistantly. Fibre-glass stocks vs wooden stocks proves ineffective; fibre-glass shatters on impact, making such rifles useless in hand-to-hand combat, whereas the heavier, wooden stock of the AK-47 proves useful as a bludgeoning tool. Longer-range-effectiveness causes short-range combat difficulties in sophisticated rifles; thus, the enemy need only engage at short-range to cause problems (again giving rise to hand to hand difficulties). Complex weapons are more difficult to clean, thus costing more time on the battlefield; most modern rifles need to be taken apart almost completely in order to clean, whereas, to lean on one example, the AK-47 is very easily disassembled and reassembled for cleaning - in a matter of seconds as opposed to minutes. Time on the battlefield is, as any good strategist knows, the difference between life and death.

Conclusion: Keep it simple. Simple is cheap, both in capital and in time. Capital and time win wars. Bullets do not.]

Why do you need to clean an AK-47 again?

Capital and time win wars. Bullets do not.

I think you'll find the war a lot more difficult to win without bullets.

Also, your 'proof' only proves a precision rifle is useless [well, suboptimal] in a crampt combat environment, not that it will be useless on any battlefield. Sweeping generalisation fallacy and all. [One might note the simple Sten was in no way superior to the MP40 or Thompson [other than for bulk production], for example]

LOL, Ma-tek.

First of all, I have disassembled both AK's [Galil's, actually. Same s___t], and M-16's. I am here to testify M-16's can be field-stripped in about 30 seconds, tops.

Second, shattering the stock on an M-16 would require quite a lot - and I mean a lot - of effort.

Hawdawg, what part of the big T? In Ft. Worth, and Colleyville, all the cops I know carry Colt Styled .45s, with a few using Sigs in the .40 range.

Footpad, the Glock is user friendly. No external safty, easy to clean, and like you said, cheap. Perfect if, like most regular beat cops, the most action your hand gun sees is range shooting and maybe puling your gun once or twice. Its a great range gun, I'll give it that much.

Ma-tek, bash anyone in the face with an M16, and they'll go down. Its also a lighter weapon, and the ammo is lighter. Its also more acurate at range, and once the whole cleaning issue was fixed, the only advantage the AK has over the Armalite serries of weapons is the heavier round. But use a JHP or BTHP, and a half way decent shooter with an Armalite will be just as, if not more, deadly than an AK. The reason it didn't do well in Vietnam is we told our soldiers it was a self cleaning rifle (which it wasn't) and we had kids with less than substantial training just stick their rifle out, and firing wildly.

Um, even though the SA-80 / L85 A2 is still standard?

[Being pedantic, one might also point out what a piece of shit the M16A1 was...If the L85 ever reaches A3 / 4 version it might actually turn into a good weapon, never know]

The reliability has been rectified. In the end they actually let H&K redesign the interior of the weapon. problem solved! :)

Oh and one other tidbit I notice someone said the longest "confirmed sniper kill" was 2300 yards by a Canadian? Well that isn't the longest. Carlos Hathcock had a confirmed kill in Vietnam of 2500 yards with a Browning 50 cal. He is the link to his book if you need it: Carlos Hathcock (http://navyseals.zoovy.com/product/DVLT009)


-Hawdawg

I said "nearly 2500 meters". The Canuck's shot was at an estimated 2430 meters to be exact.

During the next four days of fighting, the Newfoundland corporal set what is believed to be a record for a long-distance shot under combat conditions, hitting an enemy gunman at a distance of 2,430 metres.
http://www.snipersparadise.com/articles/2430kill.htm


Hathcock's shot was around 2500 yards. A yard is a little bit shorther than 0.9 meters.

At approx. 2500 yards, with a .50 caliber M2 machine gun
and with a Unerti scope mounted on it,
GySgt. Hathcock took out the target with one shot
In simple terms, the distance was 1.42 miles
http://members.tripod.com/~vet2/snipers.html


2500 yards is approximately 2250 meters.
1,42 miles is approximately 2282 meters


You were saying?

Let's see, I'm going to address a couple of issues I've seen here.

10mm Auto - I consider it to be the ultimate pistol round; it hits hard and regardless of some of the criticism (don't use FMJ, the round wasn't designed for it), nobody who's shot with 10mm JHP will be standing up again, much less breathing. I've seen what one of those rounds can do to a 2 liter bottle filled 4/5 full of water (cheaply simulates what would happen with a center mass shot) and it isn't pretty, when the bottles held together I could fit my fist through the entry "wound." And yes, it kicks like a bitch, but any line soldier will be able to handle it, although I can't say the same for the pampered pogues safely behind the lines.

Caseless ammo - It's cheaper to mass produce and much lighter than normal ammo. All of my personal and squad-served guns use caseless ammo, it just makes sense with the size of my ground forces. For those who might be interested, I use a caseless derivitive of the new 6.8mm round for my assault rifles and caseless 10mm auto for anything that requires a pistol round.

LeMas Ammo - Again, something the Imperial Armed Forces uses extensively. However, keep in mind my Army and Marines infantry use battle armour, so the risk of serious injury and/or likely death is mitigated for my forces. If you don't use BA, I would seriously consider deploying such rounds for "special use" only.

Um, even though the SA-80 / L85 A2 is still standard?

[Being pedantic, one might also point out what a piece of shit the M16A1 was...If the L85 ever reaches A3 / 4 version it might actually turn into a good weapon, never know]

It is standard, but the British hate it. Like I said, they prefer the M16/M4A1 and the MP-5's MUCH more than they do the L85 and varients.

EDIT- And yes I agree with Scandavian on the 10mm, even though it is a big bullet for any standard soldier to have to shoot... .45 would be much more practical.

http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/cartridges.jpg
It's not much bigger, and even though I have only fired 2 rounds from 10mm pistol, it doesn't really have that much more recoil compared with a .45 from what I could tell.

It is standard, but the British hate it. Like I said, they prefer the M16/M4A1 and the MP-5's MUCH more than they do the L85 and varients.

EDIT- And yes I agree with Scandavian on the 10mm, even though it is a big bullet for any standard soldier to have to shoot... .45 would be much more practical.

Its a mixed bunch some seem to love the new A2s while others seem to hate them (although oddly they have a higher user approval rating than M16/M4 family).
yes it has issues, particular the non catering for left handed shooters, but then again the SLR wasn't too nice to fire off the left shoulder either unless you could get your hands on an extended stock...

Let's see, I'm going to address a couple of issues I've seen here.

10mm Auto - I consider it to be the ultimate pistol round; it hits hard and regardless of some of the criticism (don't use FMJ, the round wasn't designed for it), nobody who's shot with 10mm JHP will be standing up again, much less breathing. I've seen what one of those rounds can do to a 2 liter bottle filled 4/5 full of water (cheaply simulates what would happen with a center mass shot) and it isn't pretty, when the bottles held together I could fit my fist through the entry "wound."

Well... so cheaply as to be completely irrelevant... The human torso is not encased in PET plastics shutting the hydrostatic shock in for instance...

I'll post this link once more for your benefit;

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

And yes, it kicks like a bitch, but any line soldier will be able to handle it, although I can't say the same for the pampered pogues safely behind the lines.

Pampered pogues such as the FBI HRT? They use softloads with their 10mm Auto since they find the training needed to become adequate marksmen with the heavy standard loading excessive. They prefer to use that time training other things...

Its up to you if you wish to use an unproportional amount of your armed forces training at learning pistol shooting (a last resort weapon), but may I suggest that you focus on things more relevant, such as their longarm marksmanship, small unit tactics, communications, maintenance of personal equipment, first aid, specialty training and so on?

The idea of line military training more with sidearms than police is laughable to be honest... and the vast majority of police will not train enough with 10mm Auto to become proficient with it.

You may try and "shine" on the range with it, but under serious stress conditions (like you know, when people are actually firing back) everything gets a hell of a lot harder.

Apparently so. Go to the GlockTalk boards and then find the dedicated 10mm forum, you won't find a single person there who prefers the light loads and you'll also find that most of them are marksmen par excellence using the full loads.

As for my line infantry and combat engineers, they're merely required to qualify for the pistol during basic and then do a requal once a year to stay current. Whether or not an individual becomes truly competent with a pistol is a matter of personal preference and/or percieved need to be solved on their own range time.

It is standard, but the British hate it. Like I said, they prefer the M16/M4A1 and the MP-5's MUCH more than they do the L85 and varients.

EDIT- And yes I agree with Scandavian on the 10mm, even though it is a big bullet for any standard soldier to have to shoot... .45 would be much more practical.

.45 is wider than 10mm ^_^

But the 10mm hits harder out to longer ranges. Bullet size is nice, but velocity matters more.

http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/cartridges.jpg
It's not much bigger, and even though I have only fired 2 rounds from 10mm pistol, it doesn't really have that much more recoil compared with a .45 from what I could tell.

I have a Colt Delta Elite in 10mm and have shot it many a time, I have shot 9mm, .38, .45 (out of a Kimber, Para Ordinance, Springfield, etc), .357 (light and heavy loads).. along with many other pistol rounds and im gonna tell ya, 10mm is very extreme- especially for avid use by a military. It cannot be fired quickly with accuracy, unless you've been shooting all your life and are used to using the gun (then your still will have some trouble), therefore it is not good for a PDW, while .45 and 9mm have a relatively lighter recoil and are able to be fired more quickly, comfortably.

.45 is wider than 10mm ^_^

Uhh.. yea.. you know alot about ballistics do ya... 10mm fires at MUCH higher velocities than the .45, and therefore alot of that energy being used to fire that small bullet is moving back into your arm, in the form of recoil. For every action, there must be an equal and opposite reaction. The .45 caliber bullet is meant to stop inside the body and cause maximum internal trauma (aka forced stopping power), whilst the 10mm bullet--even at far ranges--will go through the victim and possibly continue on through the person standing behind him/her. This is one of the main reasons the FBI dropped the 10mm because it will go through pretty much anything conventional (aka bodies, plane walls, drywalls, etc). There is no point in using smaller velocity 10mm bullets because that would deplete the purpose, and, like I said earlier, would make the .45 and 9mm a whole lot more conventional.

Its a mixed bunch some seem to love the new A2s while others seem to hate them (although oddly they have a higher user approval rating than M16/M4 family).

Maybe so, but I wouldnt trust a gun which has been sent back and modified nearly 40 times since it came out in '83 (talking about the SA-80). The first one was crap, but apparently they like the 'A2 version-- I just know they will continue to find better designs.

Some assualt weapon and special forces books I have say that members of the SAS highly prefer the MP-5 series over the SA-80 Carbine, which is not surprising.

Cottonmouth, the reason the FBI had issues with overpenetration is because they aren't the most intelligent bunch. You see, they insist on following the Geneva convention and thus aren't allowed to use FMJs. Idiocy of the highest order.

Cottonmouth, the reason the FBI had issues with overpenetration is because they aren't the most intelligent bunch. You see, they insist on following the Geneva convention and thus aren't allowed to use FMJs. Idiocy of the highest order.

Aye, but they did have overpenetration issues though. Thanks for adding onto it.

Actually, I've seen that consistently with a lot of police agencies that decided that playing follow-the-leader after the FBI adopted the 10mm. If you go over a list of agencies that still use the 10mm Auto, you'll notice they've adopted FMJ rounds like HydraShok.

I wouldnt know why, especially when, for government agencies in particular, the 10mm would just be way to powerful. Why would they not just use .45 or 9mm?

I don't know, I suppose you'd have to ask them. And when I said agencies, I meant city and county police departments.

Also, you are taking the reputation of the .45 style guns shooting 10mm Auto as gospil, don't do that. First of all, if you hold a 10mm in a proper two-hand shooting stance, the recoil isn't any worse than any other high caliber gun, but if you hold the gun in a single-hand shooting stance you're asking for a broken wrist. The one notable exception to this is the Glock 20, whose recoil management system causes the gun to have a softer recoil than its Glock 21 .45 cal brother.

Cottonmouth, the reason the FBI had issues with overpenetration is because they aren't the most intelligent bunch. You see, they insist on following the Geneva convention and thus aren't allowed to use FMJs. Idiocy of the highest order.

FMJ rounds like HydraShok.

Man did you just put your foot in your mouth... twice...

Hint;
FMJ=full metal jacket

JHP=jacketed hollow point

State exactly where FMJ is banned by any convention (Geneva or the more relevant Hague... actually neither are relevant at all since they apply to WAR)...


Your training regime btw... what would be required to "qualify" would matter a lot to deciding how much time having to be alloted, wouldn't it? Otherwise it seems your plan will lead to your armed forces sending a bunch of really innefective handgun users into the field here... they'll go trusting a weapon they barely can handle on the range.

Can we hear "regime change" being chanted from the barracks? Perhaps you need to watch out for someone rolling a frag into your tent if you tried to go on exercise with the boys?

;)

Maybe so, but I wouldnt trust a gun which has been sent back and modified nearly 40 times since it came out in '83 (talking about the SA-80). The first one was crap, but apparently they like the 'A2 version-- I just know they will continue to find better designs.

Some assualt weapon and special forces books I have say that members of the SAS highly prefer the MP-5 series over the SA-80 Carbine, which is not surprising.

of course there will be better designs in the future.
While HK was udner british ownership it was looking likely that they woudl get any replacement contract but that now looks less liekly, Diemico have also been put forward as future contractors.
As for it taking changes to make a rifle better it's not as if the M16 hasn't had its fair share.

As for the MP5 vs SA80 carbine well theya re 2 very different weapons. One was a micro rifle, simialr in function to the likes of the HK53 and various M16 style mini carbines, that never made it past the early prototype stage and the other is a world beating SMG. your comaprison is a bit like saying the Mp5 is crap because US SWAT teams have an unhealthy fixation on the M4...

I meant JHP and you know I did. As for qualifying, all a soldier needs to do is fire a 2" group at ten yards consecutively three times using one clip for each target.

I really don't see what your complaint is. A decently setup 1911-style 10mm handgun won't have much more kick than a .45 caliber handgun. Of course, this assumes you aren't doing something stupid like using the recoil springs from a .45, because if you are then you deserve the broken wrist. My father tended to use a 22# spring in his Delta, but his gun was just a tad touchy a didn't like anything heavier like a 24# spring.

3.) AK103
20.) Uzi


Instead of the AK103 I've decided that the AEK971 is superior, despite the fact that the Russian armed forces have gone for the more expensive and higher recoil alternative.
The Uzi was designed with much the same thinking as the Sten; cheap, simple & mass produceable. Despite being so incredibly reknowned something leads me to believe you'd be better off with an alternative like the ones in your list.

Also, you are taking the reputation of the .45 style guns shooting 10mm Auto as gospil, don't do that. First of all, if you hold a 10mm in a proper two-hand shooting stance, the recoil isn't any worse than any other high caliber gun, but if you hold the gun in a single-hand shooting stance you're asking for a broken wrist. The one notable exception to this is the Glock 20, whose recoil management system causes the gun to have a softer recoil than its Glock 21 .45 cal brother.

I really don't see what your complaint is. A decently setup 1911-style 10mm handgun won't have much more kick than a .45 caliber handgun. Of course, this assumes you aren't doing something stupid like using the recoil springs from a .45, because if you are then you deserve the broken wrist. My father tended to use a 22# spring in his Delta, but his gun was just a tad touchy a didn't like anything heavier like a 24#

Obviously you havent shot a 10mm, or else you would know that the recoil and power of the gun pretty much equals if not supercedes that of the .44 magnum. 10mm and .45 are NOTHING alike in terms of recoil, and even ballistics. It doesnt matter if the gun style (1911) happens to be the same, as long as you are using the same recoil springs so you can tell a difference.

...As for it taking changes to make a rifle better it's not as if the M16 hasn't had its fair share.

The M16A1 was not modified more than 40 times my friend, about two or three major changes to the guns (and bullets) design and the issuing of cleaning kits to the troops (in Vietnam) pretty much solved all of the problems for which it is accused of having today. After all of this, the M16A1 was a great weapon, and the only major thing that changed in the M16A2 was the three-round burst, so the gun didnt need cleaning as often.

As for the MP5 vs SA80 carbine well theya re 2 very different weapons. One was a micro rifle, simialr in function to the likes of the HK53 and various M16 style mini carbines, that never made it past the early prototype stage and the other is a world beating SMG. your comaprison is a bit like saying the Mp5 is crap because US SWAT teams have an unhealthy fixation on the M4...

Well it really just depends on the type of mission I guess, but all in all the SA-80 is NOT a popular gun with the British Army. At least refer to the A2 model when you talk about it, even though after-action reports on how the British liked it in Iraq havent come back yet.

No, I haven't, but I've also talked to many who have shot the 10mm state as such. I also understand that the factory installed recoil springs on the Delta, just to give an example, are not adequate for the job. I also know that you can't install higher than a 25# spring because installing the ideal 26# spring starts causing feeding problems.

I would daresay you've probably only shot a single type of 10mm. As I said ealier, every model of Glock 10mm is consistantly reported to have recoil no worse than a .45 Glock and certainly a lot less than the 10mm's (overstated, IMO) reputation led some first-time shooters to expect.

Since I have made the probably most amount of custom weapons on NS, and issue a series large caliber assault weapons to my forces (although the main one is a battle rifle), I wish to make a few points;

...

9. earplugs work wonders

First, I think you don't have the most custom weapons on NS, that title probably belongs to someone else although I can't name anyone if pressed on this.

Second, from my layman's point on view (me not equal gun expert), I don't think it would be very wise limiting one of our five senses in a combat zone.

Good work Allanea, keep this up ;)

First, I think you don't have the most custom weapons on NS, that title probably belongs to someone else although I can't name anyone if pressed on this.

Second, from my layman's point on view (me not equal gun expert), I don't think it would be very wise limiting one of our five senses in a combat zone.

Good work Allanea, keep this up ;)
I have made over 30 unique firearms for NS, has/had someone made more than that? just curious...

Every U.S. soldier is issued earplugs, expected to wear them in combat, especially (but not only) when firing a machine gun, AT-4 etc.... ever see on TV the soldiers with little green boxes hanging from thier collar or pocket button? That's an ear plug case. It's a "Don't leave home without" item ;)

I have made over 30 unique firearms for NS, has/had someone made more than that? just curious...

Every U.S. soldier is issued earplugs, expected to wear them in combat, especially (but not only) when firing a machine gun, AT-4 etc.... ever see on TV the soldiers with little green boxes hanging from thier collar or pocket button? That's an ear plug case. It's a "Don't leave home without" item ;)

If that's the case and soldiers are still getting ear problems, I guess it's not always sufficient. Oh well. I'm not the expert here, so I'm not going to get myself murdered in debate.

As for the firearms thing, others have made them, I don't know 30 necessarily but I've heard of theirs, and never heard of yours ;) That I recall, anyways.

Phoenix, if the soldiers carry them they don't use them. You ever notice how soldiers always yell after a battle? It's because their ears are ringing so loudly they have to yell over it to be heard and understand other soldiers.

Phoenix, if the soldiers carry them they don't use them. You ever notice how soldiers always yell after a battle? It's because their ears are ringing so loudly they have to yell over it to be heard and understand other soldiers.
I always wore them.....

Nice thread. Its given me an idea for a replacement for my infantry rifle (its going to be caseless with heavy duty construction,a 5.56mm caseless to make use of existing ammunition production facilities, it will have a attached grenade launcher, probably some other features too). Or it will be similer to the OCIW, I haven't really made up my mind yet.

No, I haven't, but I've also talked to many who have shot the 10mm state as such. I also understand that the factory installed recoil springs on the Delta, just to give an example, are not adequate for the job. I also know that you can't install higher than a 25# spring because installing the ideal 26# spring starts causing feeding problems.

My Colt Delta is pretty much brand new, I have only put about 10 clips through it, and I havent experienced any jamming problems yet with the stock recoil spring.

EDIT: This is unlike the Para Ordinance P-13 (1911 copy) in .45 I fired, which jammed twice in the first two mags a put through it. The owner said he needed to adjust the hammer pressure spring though.

I would daresay you've probably only shot a single type of 10mm. As I said ealier, every model of Glock 10mm is consistantly reported to have recoil no worse than a .45 Glock and certainly a lot less than the 10mm's (overstated, IMO) reputation led some first-time shooters to expect.

I have shot the FMJ, JHP, Black Talon (meant to kill), and like one other lighter load for the 10mm. About the Glocks, they may have something in them that reduces recoil slightly (like a better spring), but there is no way that the .45's recoil would be the same as the 10mm FMJ bullet. Its just not possible.

You wouldn't have had problems with your factory Delta recoil spring, it's a 22#. The problems occur when you start going above 25#.

As for the Glock, the 10mm version have a modification to the slide that allows for a softer recoil, on top of a 24# spring. On the 21 this is filed down somewhat, so felt recoil is not substantially less than that of a normal .45.

About earplugs:

They will not give you absolute ear protection. You will avoid losing your hearing outright, but you will be slightly dazed once the proverbial smoke clears.

Also, you don't alwys know in advance when the shooting begins.

Does this really even matter? I mean in an RP, I have never been asked what gun my soldiers use, and Ive never asked what gun the enemy use. It's a bit too low level. Except maybe in a spec ops RP... really in NS you just need a generic sniper / assault rifle etc.

The FN-FAL is good.Very....Shooty.Go French guns.

Booo France and all its guns.

Does this really even matter? I mean in an RP, I have never been asked what gun my soldiers use, and Ive never asked what gun the enemy use. It's a bit too low level. Except maybe in a spec ops RP... really in NS you just need a generic sniper / assault rifle etc.

Praetonia, you are not into guns like some of us are, obviously. Thus, you do not comprehend the joy some of us gun nuts derive from discussing the merits of various guns and calibers.

The FN-FAL is good.Very....Shooty.Go French guns.

The FN-FAL is a Belgium gun, not French. I'm sure there are some very afronted Belgians somewhere in the world. After all, who wants to be compared to the French?

The St. ettienne works are French though,aren't they?...CURSES!


And no, nobody wants to be compared tot he French.I apologise, Belgium.

Anyway gun-nuts, it's not something to be proud of, your gun nuttiness.To the casual observer, it's kind of pathetic.

The FN-FAL is good.Very....Shooty.Go French guns.

Belgian.

I have made over 30 unique firearms for NS, has/had someone made more than that? just curious...

Those guns you stole from Starship Troopers are unique?

I have made over 30 unique firearms for NS, has/had someone made more than that? just curious...


Ya, I made 31, I just haven't published 30 of them.

Praetonia, you are not into guns like some of us are, obviously. Thus, you do not comprehend the joy some of us gun nuts derive from discussing the merits of various guns and calibers.
Im not saying it isnt fun - Im not a gun nut so I dont know, but some people collect stamps for fun, so whatever floats your boat...

What Im saying is that this info is next to useless in an RP, because people dont really RP on that low a level.

What Im saying is that this info is next to useless in an RP, because people dont really RP on that low a level. This would depend on your RP style. It did me some good during the Fourth Edolain wat.

I don't know enough about specific cartridge types to be able to discuss them intelligently, so I just go with general ammo types for my weapons unless they use something unusual.

Very good thread with loads of information. Good job Allanea.

Those guns you stole from Starship Troopers are unique?
yes they are unique, I made a unique caliber, and the pictures of the guns are all photoshopped, all the stats are pulled from my ass, none of the AR-22 are straight copies of the starship trooper guns, just based on the same cosmetic design and overall concept. They [the AR-22 AR-22A1 CAR-22 and MG-22] are all modified , most notably the caliber and capacity[11mm instead of 7.62mm, 32 instead of 99 rounds], but there are marked visual differences and a different style of trigger.

Ya, I made 31, I just haven't published 30 of them.

Homar AR
PPS Twinshot
PPS Swordfish
A-4
Mp1A
KuNT-8
L-30
G1
G2
G3
G5
G9
Ga-1(All above are old and no longer used)
Bouncer(7.62x51mm Sniper)
PPS Stuka(7.62x51mm MG)
LGW P-14(Battle rifle)
LGW P-14a2(Next gen, metal storm type[S, A also a2])
LGW P-14S(Paratrooper version)
LGW P-14A(7.62x51mm, Increasingly favored in army)
LGW P-5(.45 pistol mounted on rails)
LGW P-25(5.56mm Bull-pup carbine)
LGW P-30(Shorty 5.56 SMG)
LGW P-31(Bullpup 5.56 SMG)
LGW P-32(New Bullpup SMG, 7.62x25mm, Metal storm)
LGW P-39(Uzi-type SMG in 7.62x25mm)
LGW P-38(Conventional SMG in 7.62x25mm)
Famas G3(Longer barrel, Metal Storm type, etc)
CKMS-47(9mm AK-47 with Hi-cap magazines)
A-1(10mm concealable pistol)
A-12(7.62x25mm service pistol)
A-12M(Metal storm type)

I got a long history of making my own crap ;)

I got a long history of making my own crap ;)

I've still made more, thats why I said over 30 ;)


CAR-24 Combat Assault Rifle
CAR-24A1 Carbine
AR-28 Assault Rifle
AR-28 DMR
M-4 Bullpup Assault Rifle
AR-56 Assault Rifle
FC-57B Assault Rifle
Mk 47 Medusa Multi-Caliber Revolver
Mk 48 Medusa Large-Caliber Revolver
PHX Hi-Power 10mm Pistol
PHX Desert Fox Pistol
PHX AutoMag Pistol
PHX MP-1 Fearless SMG
PHX MP-2 Eviscerator SMG
PHX MP-3 Sub-Machine Gun
M101 Super-Nova Shotgun
M102 Street Cleaner Auto-ShotGun
M12 MasterKey Shotgun
M-8 Lightweight .8 Ga. Shotgun
SR-23 Sniper Rifle
SR-23A1 Tactical Sniper System
M82A6 Barret .45 Sniper Rifle
SR-48 Match Rifle
SR-48A1 Tactical Sniper Rifle
M-214 Microgun
M-135 .50 cal Minigun
M-69 Schwarzenegger Grenader, 40mm auto GL
M203X 40mm Belt-Fed Grenade Launcher
AR-22 Battle Rifle/Heavy Assault Rifle
AR-22A1 Carbine
CAR-22 Combat Assult Rfile
MG-22 Squad Automatic Weapon/Light Machine Gun
SR-22 Semi-Automatic Sniper Rifle


N-12 Double Barrel .12 ga. Shotgun
N-42 Double Action .42 caliber pistol
N-69 6.8mm Carbine


.10 Gauge Pump Shotgun
.308 Light Machine Gun
.308 Assault Rifle
40mm Drum GL
:eek:
These are all completey original, made solely by me, I have a few that are not modified significantly enough from their real-world equivalents and some I designd jointly so I didn't include those :D

Meh, as long as were listing guns...
GC-11 Assault Rifle (Standard DGNT assault rifle)
Caliber: 7.62 DGNT
Barrel length: 21 in
Overall length: 43 in
weight: 9lbs, laser varient 7lbs
Rifling: 4 groove
Rate of fire: 650 rpm
Fire settings: 1 shot, three round burst
Clip: 20, 30 or 40 round

GC-11 MKII (Experimental, never implimented for military use)
Caliber: 8mm
Barrel length: 25in
Overall length: 52in
weight: 12lbs
Rifling: 4 groove
Rate of fire: 500 RPM
Fire settings: 1 shot, three round burst
Clip: 20, 30 or 40 round

GC-11 MKIII (Cheap rifle, basicaly its designed for quick mass production, used by miltias and untrained troops)
Caliber: 7.62 DGNT
Barrel length: 16 in
Overall length: 27 in
weight: 10lbs
Rifling: 4 groove
Rate of fire: 600 RPM
Fire settings: Three round burst, full auto
Clip: 20, 30 or 40 round

GCMG (Machine gun)
Caliber: 7.62
Barrel length: 22in
Overall length: 50in
weight: 22lbs
Rifling: 4 groove
Rate of fire: 850 RPM
Fire settings: Three round burst, full auto
Clip: 20, 30, 40 round or 100 round belt

GC-S (Sniper rifle)
Caliber: 7.62, .50 varient
Barrel length: 28in
Overall length: 50in
weight: 10lbs
Rifling: 4 groove
Rate of fire: 1 shot, bolt.
Fire settings: N/A, single shot.

GC-SG (Assualt shotgun, issued to urban-ops troops, special forces. Intended mostly for powersuited troops)
Caliber: 12 gauge
Barrel length: 26 in
Overall length: 32in
weight: 9lbs
Rifling: None
Rate of fire: 350RPM
Fire settings: Single shot, three round burst, full auto
Clip: 10 round

GC-SMG (Sub-machine gun)
Caliber: 9mm
Barrel length: 7in
Overall length: 25in
weight: 7lbs
Rifling: 4 groove
Rate of fire: 600rpm
Fire settings: Three round burst or full auto
Clip: 25, 35, or 45 rnd

GC-P Mk-S (Spy pistol, made of highly durable plastics)
Caliber: .45
Barrel length: 3 in
Overall length: 5in
weight: 19oz
Rifling: 7 groove
Clip: 5 shot

GC-P MKI (Old standard issue pistol)
Caliber: 9mm
Barrel length: 5in
Overall length: 8in
weight: 42oz
Rifling: 7 groove
Clip: 15 rounds

GC-P MKII (New standard pistol)
Caliber: 10mm
Barrel length: 6in
Overall length: 9in
weight: 38oz
Rifling: 7 groove
Clip: 8rnd

GC-P MKIV (Counterpart of GC-11 MKIII)
Caliber: 10mm
Barrel length: 7in
Overall length: 9in
weight: 40oz
Rifling: 7 groove

Hooray for Janes Guide to Guns :)
Clip: 8rnd

DGNT: is the Anti-Elf RP basically dead?

Seems like it. You can join the Trench Warfare one though, its about the end of the war. You can nuke part of my country and not fear the consequences :)

I think you'll find the war a lot more difficult to win without bullets.

Also, your 'proof' only proves a precision rifle is useless [well, suboptimal] in a crampt combat environment, not that it will be useless on any battlefield. Sweeping generalisation fallacy and all. [One might note the simple Sten was in no way superior to the MP40 or Thompson [other than for bulk production], for example]

[OOC: Indeed at the first, but bullets are not as important as one might think. I hasten to add that, as I RP a nation that doesn't use ballistic projectile weapons in ground actions, we don't need bullets at all...

Anyway. The 'proof' is easily applied in a multifaceted manner. A precision weapon is useful only under certain conditions - a temperate climate, probably street combat is preferable, or field-to-field combat, with plenty of space, and not too much dust or particulate matter.

I defy anyone to actually find a battlefield without dust or particulate matter. Things go boom. Smoke is particulate matter. Thus, a smokey environment is certain to, eventually, degrade the performance of a precision weapon, if that weapon is not cleaned with greater care than needed with a 'primitive' firearm- perhaps even causing it to jam.

Also, I note, there are several climates on Earth. Temperate, tropical, arctic, arid. In arctic conditions, precision weapons become, effectively, non-precision weapons. The soldier cannot fire the weapon properly, as his hands are numbed from the cold. In tropical conditions, the fighting is inevitably close-quarters, and so the precision weapon is, in fact, overkill. In arid conditions, sand is to be expected, and, as such, the precision weapon will require constant cleaning. The only effective environment for a precision weapon, therefore, is a temperate climate. Thus - in twenty-five percent of engagements, at average, a precision weapon is effectively inefficient or ineffective - or both.

And of course, there are differing levels of complexity. A pike is a far more effective weapon than a stick, but increase the length and strength of the pike too far, and it becomes unwieldy and less effective than the stick. It's a matter of degrees.]

Magazine. It's a magazine, despite the trendy coolness of 'clip' you're infact referring to a magazine. I'm sure that's mentioned in the first page as an item.

These are clips
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/m1gar_4.jpg




this is a magazine
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/product_images/339/MAG-080.jpg

These two terms are used interchangeably these days, however, they are not
really interchangeable concepts.
While some may argue that cutting this distinction is splitting hairs, I would
argue that it is a matter of precision and understandability-- rather like an
article I have seen which calls a Hakim breech-cover the ''dust cover, I know
what this means once I have translated it in my mind. Besides, a breech cover
is actually more important for what it keeps in (hot gasses) than for simply
keeping dust out

What then is the difference?

The magazine is that which holds the cartridges so that they can be fed into
the firearm and fired. A clip is a device designed to hold cartridges so that
they can be fed easily into the magazine for use.

There are essentially only two types of magazine, the fixed (or integral) and
the detachable. Fixed (integral) magazines are just exactly that. They are a
permanent part of the firearm designed to hold the cartridges at ready to be
fed either by ''working'' a bolt or by the rechambering action of a semi- or
fully automatic firearm. One MIGHT go so far as to suggest the cylinder on a
revolver could be considered a ''fixed magazine. More frequently, however, the
fixed or integral magazine is found on long guns.

There are three common types of fixed/integral magazine:
The Fixed Box as found on the Moisin Nagants, Mauser 98s and most
field issue SKS.
The Integral Tube as seen on pump-action shotguns, Winchester 94s and Marlin 39As and the integral Spool Magazine as found on the Mannlicher Schoenauer.

Seeing as we're leaping on the gun showcasing bandwagon:

Jay SAW-1 Assault rifle (5.56mm NATO)

Jay LGL-1 light grenade launcher (40mm grenade)

Jay SA-1 side-arm (9mm parabellum)

Jay HMG/V-1, HMG/T-1 Heavy machine guns (5.56mm NATO)

Jay AMG-1 Aircraft Gun (25mm)

Sigh...

Sorry for the bad picture links.

Clips;
http://img128.exs.cx/img128/3636/m1gar48db.jpg

Clips are still used today, but usually to load magazines faster, rahter than weapons directly. These are called "charger clips" or "stripper clips", and single column for ease of use. The ones shown in the picture are however meant to be charged into the integral magazine of a M1 Garand, clip and all.


Magazines;
http://img128.exs.cx/img128/4643/mag0803he.jpg

Thanks Footpads, updated.

I hope no-one minds my throwing a few things out there.

1) "Saying 'Clip' when you mean 'magazine' is rather like talking about socks when you mean boots."

There still a few mix ups in the Whole Magazines/Clip section. A Stripper clip is actually a charger, not a clip. Chargers and Clips are both devices for loading magazines, but one is a vital part of the gun's mechanism and fits inside the magazine (a TRUE clip), the other is an optional device that does not. A magazine can be defined as a container of ammo. A room full of shells on a battleship for example is a magazine.

In small arms terms, a magazine usually refers to a box, drum or tube with a spring inside to help feed the rounds. Magazines can be a fixed part of the weapon, or detachable. Most detachable magazines can be removed and replaced with a full one to reload the weapon, but there are guns such as the Lee Enfield where the magazine is only removed for cleaning, and is refilled by a different mechanism.

A 'clip' is a self contained device that holds multiple rounds of ammuntion and is inserted into a magazine. where as a charger is a device that holds several rounds and is used to load a magazine, the charger istelf is not actually part of the magazine. If the wepon uses a clip you cannot use loose ammuntion except directly inserted into the chamber (the '+1' capacity).

2) The whole debate bewteen the 9mm and the .45 is rather moot in my opinion (Im not gonna cover intermediate rounds which some are great, others are not so hot) Ive shot both and own pistols in both calibers, and Ive seen what they can do on white tail deer at close range (long story) and the storage capacity of the 9mm does not make up for the stopping power of the .45 ACP.

If you compare the number of actions required for the same effect (assumeing a 'double tap' is used as per a majority of law enforcement training) you end up with 7+1[15/2=7+(2/1)=8] (8 rounds) from a 15+1 round high cap 9mm to 8+1 (9) from 9 rounds of a .45. I like to reffer to this as the 'effective capacity' thats the ammount of rounds boiled down to the ammount of incapacititating rounds per magazine. Seems about equal right? well now consider that for each incapacitation it required the shooter to reacquire the target twice for one incapacitation with a 9mm...

No matter how fast, or how little the sights have jumped thats one more step that slows the shooter down in a stressful situation. The .45 on the other hand can in the same time frame begin to take bead on a second target should he be required to even though his recoil was more severe, and his sights throwna bit further off. The one disadvantage in todays military, is that the 9mm does have better penetration than the .45 against body armor (a blessing and a curse in CQC). But against an unarmored opponent, the .45 (or similar rounds) will have the edge over the 9mm in my opinion.

[sidenote:]I apologize for any typos I was up all night working on a proposal for work, and popped on for the heck of it.

My own preference is for the 6.8x43 SPC cartridge, fired in a solid-stocked rifle with STANAG magazines (M-16 mags), single-fire or short-burst*, and solid enough to be used effectively in a bayonet-fight when the bullets run out.
(because, in a protracted fight, esp. in the NS environment, where force-multipliers are less of a factor, they WILL run out.)

*short burst=two round burst, so you don't have to aim at his right foot to get the second shot into his midsection...

I base this on the published ballistics of the 6.8x43mm SPC (was it Hodgedon? RCBS??)

Now, for why: 5.56mm has difficulty penetrating a truck door at ranges over 150 feet. Most mechanized armies have trucks. The more modern ones issue body armour. That body armour is likely better than Cat-3, which means you have to get damn bloody close with a .223 rifle to hurt, much less kill, the guy if your soldiers are doing that which they are normally trained to do-aim centre mass.

Therefore, something that retains enough velocity to penetrate issued bodyarmour at further than standing in his boots range is worth losing four or five rounds per magazine (same volume) to use. As is the ability to engage (with some chance of success) enemies behind tempered glass windshields, truck (not economy car) doors and body panels...

Overpenetration in urban warfare is a problem-no doubt about that-but it's a problem whether you're using a battle-rifle, or a sub-machine-gun. Even a "Blank" load (Just wadding and rocksalt) in a shotgun can go through most walls inside a house, birdshot WILL overpenetrate in a space the size of, say, my living room, or most Apartments.
Get up to Buckshot, and only pre-1905 exterior walls (Drywall over lathe with a layer of plaster, four to six inches thick with exterior sheathing and siding over that) will stop it from going on its merry way into the neighbour's yard/bathroom/picture window.
(cement walls will, of course, stop it sooner. as will brick...once or twice).

One more thing: I like the gas system to go UNDER the barrel, and the sights as close to barrel centerline as possible. Why? tilting throws a shot off, and the odds that every single soldier is going to have a custom-just-for-him fit from stock-to-shoulder are not worth discussing.
Imagine it like a lever, with the fulcrum at the top of your front sight-post, and the work-end about the centre of the bore. the closer you get to those two being the same, the more accurate your sight-picture, and the better chance you have of hitting the other fellow where he will, at least, be hurt.
Tall sights look "BADAZZ", but they're more hold-sensitive, bulkier, and more likely to act as weed-and-seed catchers. They also require troopie to expose more of his tender butt to enemy return fire-esp. in the prone position.


Pistols:
10mm is a bit too "Full house" for most people of average size, firing from a "Light" handgun like the Glock, (or any other polymer-framed pistol), Lightweight Colt (aluminum frames, like the Essex brand), or other "Light" handguns.
.40 Smith is 10mm toned down. Oddly enough, it still retains both the magazine capacity of a hi-cap 9mm in a standard frame, and an edge in velocity over the .45ACP. It just doesn't try to kick your arm off, and it has superior wound-ballistics and stopping-power to the 9mm parabellum round.
This makes it a better choice in issue-pistols (as the FBI discovered), Submachineguns (you can always hot-load back up if you make a carbine-only shell), and self-defense pistols for the civilian market.
(Less likely to get your guts opened up by that thug on angel-dust,Meth, or Crank-after you've shot him three times in the chest...)
It's really the better military round of the two-the Ten Millimeter is more like a .41 Magnum in performance, which is fine for State Troopers, and Handgun Hunters, but not so hot for little Corp'ral joe schmuckie and his buddy Private Deeznutz, neither of whom is a big, strapping outdoorsman-dude or Audie Murphy superman.

When you're issuing to an army, you need to be issuing to the Average "Joe" (or Jane, if you've got an Amazon colony), not to the upper or lower ends of the spectrum.

This is, I suspect, what Allanea was getting at in his original post. Your grunts aren't (unless you're futuretech and using Clones or Drones) all going to be 6'7, 300 pound weightlifters who run the 440 in 4 seconds with 20/10 vision who've been shooting heavy weapons their entire lives.

They're much more likely to be (in moderntech) around 5'5", 135-150 lbs, with wildly varying eyesight, often wearing glasses, who sprint average speeds, and only keep up on the P.T. because their Sargeants are on their ass (or because they understand the purpose behind it!). Most will come into the service with limited to no experience with guns at all, from civilian backgrounds.
BRM is one part training for accuracy, and three parts training in confidence and familiarity with a weapon. IF the weapon weighs 25 pounds, kicks like a mule, bellows as it does so, and hurts to use, you're not going to get much confidence or skill.

I want to know one thing: wth does (for example) .45 mean?
How big is a .45 bullet? Hello? I know I'm an idiot...

This looks fairly good, but I don't think the ability to fire fully automatically is what makes an assault rifle useless for sniping.

Would anyone be interested in seeing the guide to creating an assault rifle for NS that I started but never finished?
I will defer to authority here, namely the legendary Jeff Cooper.Is he the guy who has the house specially designed as a defensive position?
These are all completey original, made solely by me, I have a few that are not modified significantly enough from their real-world equivalents and some I designd jointly so I didn't include those :DAren't several of those very slightly modified copies of real firearms? The Medusas, for example...

Regarding clips versus magazines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(firearm)
Those articles might be helpful; on the other hand, maybe someone(s) here could make them more helpful.

I want to know one thing: wth does (for example) .45 mean?
How big is a .45 bullet? Hello? I know I'm an idiot...
.45 inch ;)

.45 inch ;)

For the english-system impaired, that's also 11.25mm

Is he the guy who has the house specially designed as a defensive position?

I haven't heard about that.
He's the History MA/USMC Lt. Colonel/Inventor of Practical Shooting/NRA board member/Founder of the world's most famous shooting school/Inventor of the Scout rifle concept/Guy who popularized 1911's again in the 1980's. That guy. ;)

Now, for why: 5.56mm has difficulty penetrating a truck door at ranges over 150 feet. Most mechanized armies have trucks.

Sorry, thats just bollocks. :)

Unless you load softpoints designed for hunting anyway.

I'll issue the same challenge I did to the guy claiming 9mmP wouldn't penetrate a raincoat at 100 meters.

You bring the truck door, I'll bring the rifle. Lets meet on the range. Make sure you can get behind the door all snugly and nice before I start shooting. ;)

I haven't heard about that.Hmm...I think he does and it's called "The Sconce", but I can't find many details about it online. It would be interesting to know what makes it so great.
He's the History MA/USMC Lt. Colonel/Inventor of Practical Shooting/NRA board member/Founder of the world's most famous shooting school/Inventor of the Scout rifle concept/Guy who popularized 1911's again in the 1980's. That guy. ;)I'm afraid those don't mean anything to me...:( (Well, I know what some of that means, but it doesn't help me identify him.)

.45 inch ;)
Length or diameter?

Length or diameter?Diameter
For further confusion, not all countries measure the same way...>_>

Hmm...I think he does and it's called "The Sconce", but I can't find many details about it online. It would be interesting to know what makes it so great.
I'm afraid those don't mean anything to me...:( (Well, I know what some of that means, but it doesn't help me identify him.)


Oh Gods.

A biography of Jeff Cooper (http://www.cybersurf.co.uk/~johnny/jeff/aboutjff.html)
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries (http://helpdesk.realise.com/~johnny/jeff/)