NationStates Jolt Archive


How to Roleplay a Successful Space-Tech Nation

Gurguvungunit
25-12-2004, 04:09
How to Roleplay a Successful Space-Tech Nation

This guide appears to have several glaring errors, and so I'd advise you not to follow its population requirements. They apparently do not exist.

A Guide by Gurguvungunit

A Note on Prices:
Prices are done in United States Dollars, (USD) simply because that’s where I live, and that’s the money I’m familiar with. Sorry in advance for all you non-US Citizens about this.

Fleets

Intro:
The great desire of lots of new nations is to have a space fleet, preferably one bigger, better, shinier, and of course cooler looking than anyone else’s. The only problem is, most of these new nations can’t wait. So, at 16 million people, they go and build the Death Star.
That’s all well and good, except that no 16 million person nation would be able to develop, finance, build or supply even a single Heavy Cruiser type ship. An average Nimitz Class Carrier costs 22 billion USD. An Imperial Star Destroyer, for example, would cost many trillions. Even larger nations, on the order of 100-200 million people, probably can’t maintain a full battle fleet. We’re talking, at best, a few Heavy Cruiser types, backed up by several Frigates, with the main fleet being small, anti-smuggling ships.
Another thing: Economy does affect your space fleet, or lack thereof. Strong and above economies are important if you want to finance a space fleet, simply because the better off your economy is, the more money your people will have, and the higher you can tax them. It’s a cycle. Essentially, the better your economy, the better off your space fleet.

Starting Out:
This is the hardest part on your path to space-techyness. Basically, you have to wait until your population grows, preferably to 300-400 million people. Of course, that doesn’t mean you can’t do anything, you can still happily take part in roleplaying as a modern tech nation, or a past tech one, or even fantasy. If you intend to do this, I highly recommend reading the other stickies on the International Incidents and NationStates boards.
Okay, lets assume that you’re now 300-400 million people strong, you have a strong-frightening economy, and you’ve done some putzing about on the forums. You know how things work, how to roleplay well, and you’re ready to venture into space.
Alright. First off, don’t simply magic a fleet out of thin air… or rather vacuum. Announce your plans to build a space fleet, and start small. I can’t stress this enough. You probably don’t start out with superluminal (faster than light) travel yet, nor do your intrasystem frigates have massive tachyon torpedo banks, or whatever. When I started my space exploration, I didn’t even build my own stuff. I bought it. Small, cheap ships out of other people’s mothball fleets. I had intrasystem raiders, armed with Gauss Rifles. I didn’t even have a colony yet. Just a big launch platform called Daedalus Alpha from which I sent my newly purchased raiders into space.

Getting Settled:
Gradually, you can expand to interstellar ships. In fact, you can do this pretty quickly, or even, if you feel brave, bypass the previous step altogether*. Many do. At this stage, I still didn’t make my own ships. I stuck with those built by others. My fleet, at this stage, consisted of several ships of the Homeworld universe, thoughtfully provided by the nations Lunatic Retard Robots and Somtaaw.
Okay, you’ve got a small fleet, and you’ve sent explorers out into surrounding space, leaving Mother Earth behind. Now, you think, would be a great time to start a colony. However, know that many nations have settled almost the entire Sol system (that’s our system, by the way), and the Alpha Centauri, Vega and all other nearby systems. You might have to go pretty far out, or not at all. I myself opted for the second. I built space stations instead. A tad more expensive, but they provided more freedom. Twice I moved them when I discovered that I had invaded another nation’s territory. In other words, if you plan to colonize close to our sun, put a thread on the forum, asking if anyone has a claim. It’s better than a war.

*If you do, though, remember to start a little later, say 400-500 million people, with a slightly higher economy.

Ships of the Line:
Now that you have some colonies, your resources have expanded. Consider this. Before, you were just one nation on a very crowded Earth. Now, you’ve got settlements in places never touched before. Thus, your space fleet can expand too.
At around this point, I ditched the somewhat outdated Homeworld ships in favor of Star Wars types. They had shields, more powerful weapons, and cost a lot more. However, now that I was in the quite comfortable 800 million range, I could reasonably support these very expensive ships.
Go ahead now, get a little crazy. Make a shipyard with a cool name. Build ships twice the size of an Oil Tanker. Just remember, you have to crew all these ships. So if you have fewer people than the crew requirement, no dice. Also, remember to stay real. Remember those Intrasystem Frigates? Well, you can build lots of them, they’re cheap, crappy and easy to put together. However, for the 200 of those, you get maybe one Imperial Star Destroyer, or like ship. So your fleet will actually get smaller, but be more powerful. Rather one Aircraft Carrier than Nelson’s entire Trafalgar fleet, for a modern/historical example.

Goin’ Galactic:
When you get really big, like 1 billion or more, consider going galactic. In other words, pick a planet that’s uninhabited, and move your nation there. It’s a lot more reasonable than the overcrowded Earth, and your people can live in individual houses, should they so desire. Your Vice President’s days of sleeping in his boss’ closet are over.
Your space fleet can expand too. Remember those three Star Destroyers you built a while back? Well, they’ve become ten, with twenty or more support vessels. You’ve got a real space fleet. Have yourself a beer. Or if you’re underage, have a root beer. I do not support underage drinking.

Goin’ Extra-Galactic:
Or, you can wait. This is an alternate step to the previous. Wait for the 2 billion mark or so, then go to another galaxy†. The Andromeda’s nice, it’s not crowded at all. Only 11 or so nations (that I know of) live there. And one of them’s mine. Now you’ve got serious room. Stretch your legs out. Or rather, your fleets. Colonize as much as you want, you’ll doubtfully find competitors. Your fleet gets bigger, with the added resources, you can create truly massive ships and stations. This is around the time you can consider yourself an interstellar power. Have a party.

†It helps to be able to say how you got to another galaxy. Invent something, and make sure you have the resources to build it. For myself, I built a large, nearly planet sized portal-ish thing. My ships fly through, they end up in the Andromeda Galaxy. Very convenient.


Technology

Intro:
This’ll be a somewhat shorter section, if only because it’s less focused on. Technology is really the only way that a human (or fairy, or elf, or vampire) can reasonably noodle about in space. Therefore, it’s pretty important, but tends to take a backseat to fleets, planets, and wars. That being said, here we go.

Pointy-headed Research Dudes:
It goes without saying that for you to have advanced technology, you have to research it. However, you don’t have to post every time your scientists think up something new. In fact, I encourage you not to. However, if in the course of your RP, you feel the need to introduce a new technology, a good way might be to introduce some scientists, and through them, the related tech. I. E, rather than posting a list of specs like so:

Galactic Transit Technology
It’s a big, scary ring in space. And my ships fly through it to get to the Hot Dog Galaxy.

Power Output: 200,000,000,000,000 Kilojoules
Transit Time:10 Minutes
Shielding: 500,000 Terawatts
Weapons: None
Capacity: 10 cruiser class or equivalent ships per trip

And thus breaking the RP’s flow, you could post something like:

Dr. Carlson peered out the window of the Research Vessel Copenhagen, watching the Transit Ring that he had designed send the first exploratory ship into the Hot Dog Galaxy. He sighed, thinking of the years spent in a whitewashed lab, building miniatures and trying to send objects from one point to another…

See? This fits a little better. It’s less contrived, and tends to flow better within an RP. However, there are some cases in which the list form works well. Say you’ve made a storefront in which you plan to market your technology. In that case, it is infinitely better to post a list, as it imparts information better.

The Infamous Tech Wank:
No, it’s not what you think. I am not about to discuss masturbation via machines here. A wank is a term on NS for the overuse of a particular strategy to give yourself unfair advantages. It’s a mild to serious form of godmoding. The one that we will focus on here is the Tech-Wank
NSWiki (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page) explains it best.
The most common and least offensive form of wank. It is abuse of high technology, either to break the laws of reality, or to enforce adherence to minutiae on an RP not concerned with technicalities of combat systems.
In general NS, most people are not technophiles, and will become irked when you proceed to explain to them exactly how your 8mm Tungsten-Carbide, Armor-Piercing, Fin-Stabilized, Discarding-Sabot fletchette firing assault rifles are perfectly designed to penetrate their mere level three kevlar vests. This would be considered wank because most players would not know about the benefits of TC/DU APFSDS Fletchettes, and would negate their infantry armor. This is NOT a godmode, however, since it does not change the rules of reality or break the roleplay. (And yes, I used my own weapon as an example of wank. It's the SAG ACR, if you want to know.)
However, announcing that, because your opponent only claimed to use "RPGs" on your tank, it did no damage (since the RPG-7 is incapable of piercing the glacis plate of a Main Battle Tank, and your opponent did not use an RPG-29 specifically) is tech wank AND a godmode, because it allows you to ignore their attack, and take no damage. Most players couldn't tell an RPG-7 from an SA-2, and they had the right idea (firing rockets at a tank), but not the intrinsic knowledge of weapons. In this case, assume that they are using the correct weapon.
Most blatant of tech-wank is the "impenetrable shield" and the "unstoppable bullet" syndrome, in which the technology becomes a get-out-of-jail-free card, allowing blatant godmoding to be disguised as legitimate gameplay. On a side note, the effect of an unstoppable bullet striking an impenetrable shield has proven catastrophic.
Thank you, NSWiki.
That pretty much brings to a close our Technology Section (most of which was NOT written by me, but rather by the good people at NSWiki). I highly recommend reading the entire wank section (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Wank).

Warfare:

Intro:
What’s an enormous space fleet for, if not for crushing your enemies to their constituent particles, then sending those particles into the sun? Well, here we discuss warfare.
It’s pretty much like your average war, but a few things ought to be said that pertain especially to space warfare. They mostly involve weapons, what they do, maneuvers, and expansion of territory.
There are several types of war that I will discuss, which I call territorial war, where one party is trying to take another’s land/planets, political war, where the war is motivated by the actions or lack thereof of another nation, and blood feud, where the war is motivated by the relations between leaders. Think Iraq War here.
This isn’t really a discussion of tactics, rather things that ought to be considered during a time of war.

Cold, Hard Cash:
It takes money to go to war. This might seem obvious, but it’s not what you’d first think of when you actually have a war. However, it’s one of the primary concerns when you do so. If you don’t have the cash to go to war, you can’t, and that’s final. Why does war cost so much? Well, ships will be destroyed or disabled, and you’ll have to replace or repair them. And that costs money. Your crew will be drawing danger pay, which costs money, and your whole economy will become geared towards war, which is not terribly efficient. So, you’ll need to deplete some of your cash reserves for this. There isn’t really a good figure regarding how much money you lose, since it’s not taken into account by the game, and by only some players. However, it’s a sign of good RP skills that in your postwar RPs your nation shows some strain as a result from its recent war. It’s up to you to decide how much you lose, providing you allow for losses.

Guns, Germs and Giant Laser Things:
Firstly, your weapons are your own. They can do pretty much whatever you want them to, as long as you stay reasonable. In other words, lasers, phasers, torpedoes, plasma guns and antimatter bombs are fine, bombs that take out entire fleets in an instant are not. See the Tech Wank section.
That being said, I’d like to address an annoying misconception regarding Nuclear Weapons. Nukes are big and scary in an atmosphere. They make a thoroughly badass shock wave that melts cities. In space, however, nukes are not nearly as deadly, where there is nothing to carry the shockwave. Thus, the main killers would be heat and radiation, and the blast radius would be much, much smaller. The radiation will dissipate fairly quickly, and the heat even more so. However, anything inside is still toast. While the heat and radiation dissipate quickly, they certainly stick about long enough to kill anything within the blast radius. If you’ve got a small, new space nation, nukes ought to make fine payloads for your missiles.

Space Marines V.S. King Henry V:
You can certainly roleplay space/future tech versus present or past tech. It’s been done before, and can lead to very cool RPs. However, should you choose to do this, remember that although your plasma rays may melt space ships, a catapult can put a biggish hole in one too. Your space marines may have teh uber death rifles, but King Henry’s bowmen can still put an arrow in your guys. You might have the advantage, but a disciplined enemy can still inflict damage on you.

No Man is an Island:
But it’s a great way to think of planets. Remember, there is a lot of… well, space in space, and you essentially rule an island kingdom. Your fleet is so important because it keeps safe the area between your islands/planets. And since space is virtually without resources, your planets become very important. They are your cities, your cash and your morale, all in one large and shiny ball. Protect them, because in any territorial war, people will try to take them away. Now, since space is three dimensional, you can’t easily stop them by putting your fleet in their line of flight, because they could go around. So you have to draw them to battle, or protect things that are stationary˚, such as planets or installations.

˚ Well, nothing’s stationary in space, but planets and stations tend to occupy generally the same bit of space, since they orbit things. However, if one wants to capture a planet, his/her fleet must go to it first, so place yours accordingly.

There and Back Again:
You’ve got a fleet, and you know where you’re sending it. You fly it off to Planet X, it gets there, it fights, right?
Wrong. You forgot to crew, supply and maintain your fleet. This is called logistics. Now, I’m not saying that you need to know exactly how this all happens, but at least provide for how your fleet gets its next meal. If you’re going to put it in deep space, you’ll have to re-supply it somewhat frequently. So you need a supply chain. However, your enemy will want to keep your ships from being there, unless you put them somewhere really stupid, so he/she’ll try to kill your supply chain. So you have to guard it. Pretty quick, this simple deployment becomes a bit harder to manage. Therefore, it’s easiest to put your fleet near a planet or base from which you can draw your supplies. Of course, if your people are robots, or some other form of being that doesn't require food, you'll have to supply electricity, or whatever they subsist on instead.
Okay, now you’ve figured out where your next meal is coming from, but what about getting there? You need to move your ships to their next posting. It’s easy, but it takes time. Space is a huge place. Even superluminal ships will take some time going from place to place, and you’ll have to make allowance for that. If, say your rhenium mines are being attacked, your fleet three sectors away probably won’t get there in time to save them. This, of course, means that you are faced with the task of having forces in place to guard everything you want to keep. This will limit the size of the area you guard, because you’ve only got so many ships.

The Conquering Horde Approaches:
This section is about conquering planets. Remember, they’re like islands, rather than nations with borders. You’ll need a fairly mobile force of warships, coupled with troop carriers. Remember, when conquering a planet, it isn’t enough to subjugate the space around it; you also have to do the dirty work of actually taking the planet.
This is hard. You’ll have to send flimsy landing ships filled with troops through hostile atmosphere, taking fire from defense forces, and then land and empty them. You’ll take severe losses in this stage, which is important to remember during an RP. It’s much harder to take a planet than it is to win a space battle, and you’ll have to lose men accordingly.

This ends the Warfare section, and pretty much the entire thing. Something to remember, in any RP, but especially space tech, is to use a common sense approach to warfare. It can be easy, with your newfound technological superiority, to forget that the main thing governing an RP is: could it really happen the way you describe? For a good RPer, the answer is almost always ‘yes’. Try to make that the case with you, lest the mods smite you for godmoding.

It’s been great; and I hope that you’ve learned something from reading this. A few more guides that new nations should look at:
What Godmoding Is (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=367578)
Guide to NationStates (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=357975)
Want More Respect on the Forums? (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=352036)
These are the basic stickies that’ll tell you most of what you need to know. From here, you’re on your own. You’ve learned much, young padawhatsit, now you must become a Jedi.
Izistan
25-12-2004, 04:16
OOC: Would playing a nation made up entirely of AI controlled nano-robots be considered a godmod? I mean I wouldn't really need to bother with heath care and life support systems on ships.
Gurguvungunit
25-12-2004, 04:23
Hmm... good point. [edits]
Anagonia
25-12-2004, 04:30
This should be stickied...
Iuthia
25-12-2004, 04:31
AI controlled nanites (odd as though it can be) could be balanced in order to suit any issues your nation may have, as an example of this you replace "Healthcare" needs with "Maintenance", everything breaks down eventually and nanites will be lost overtime, or like cancer, the reproduction of nanites made by other nanites may eventually result in incorrect nanites which if not dealt with will pose a threat.

Meanwhile, while you do not need life support, they will need power in some form or other and generally the power problem isn't something you can solve realistically... they could be very efficient at using the power they have, but they will need something to generate that power.

I did something on RPing in space a while back, though it wasn't as specific and served more as a general RPing guide. (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=355350)
Izistan
25-12-2004, 04:35
OOC: Ah okay.
Automagfreek
25-12-2004, 04:38
This should be stickied...

OOC: I.I is mostly a modern tech setting. This would probably be better suited in the N.S forum, where a majority of the space tech nations hang out.
Green Sun
25-12-2004, 04:39
Wow. This thread came just in time. Would you like to claim a system on Planets I?
Izistan
25-12-2004, 04:48
OOC: Well, I'm going to take the suggestions to heart. I might get that introductory RP set up for my nanites. I'm not sure wheter it would be in II or NS, I just need to find someone to RP it with.
Iuthia
25-12-2004, 04:51
Ew... I can't stand the "Earth" threads, let alone some silly rule system for space in what is actually a freeform game. All it ends up doing is segmenting Nationstates so that instead of everyone being in the same universe, people are spread around many small universes which are mutually exclusive.

Personally I don't want to claim real life nations, it's dull and silly when you can create something original.
Skeelzania
25-12-2004, 04:56
Personally I disagree with the "your NS population must and always dictates how big your military is[/i]" principle, especially in FT when we're essentially guessing on how much man power is required to keep the war machine running. The fact that many people RP vast intergalactic empires with population in the tens of billions or even trillions further complicates matters. As long as you keep your military size and tech within reasonable bounds, and above all RP it well, do whatever you want.

Other than that it looks pretty good.
Gurguvungunit
25-12-2004, 08:20
Well, as I've been told/read many times, you can't (and as far as I understand it, it's really can' t) RP with a much larger army than your population says. Ergo, your population DOES dictate what your army is, size wise. However, I'm open to editing if more people come in on your side, Skeelz.

I'd love a sticky, but if it ought to be in NS, then that's fine.
Aztahoth
25-12-2004, 08:23
This... is so beautiful! *weeps with joy* :D

A definate [tag], I want to read this again and reference it later.
Skeelzania
25-12-2004, 08:28
Well, as I've been told/read many times, you can't (and as far as I understand it, it's really can' t) RP with a much larger army than your population says. Ergo, your population DOES dictate what your army is, size wise. However, I'm open to editing if more people come in on your side, Skeelz.

I'd love a sticky, but if it ought to be in NS, then that's fine.

Many people consider it "good" RP ettiquete (sp) to limit your army size to a certain percentage of your population, 5% generally being given as the "high-end." There's NOTHING saying you have to adhere to this rule, its merely a guideline to help you figure out what's acceptable. However, IMO this applies more to mondern-tech nations that future tech nations, most of which are quite large ICly and get away with it.

Not that this territory is necessarily filled, with planets overflowing with grimy suboids. For example, I lay claim to most of the Milky Way's "Gamma Quadrant", even though I only have at most a dozen inhabited systems and a navy of less than 800 warships. I can't possibly hope to patrol, much less govern such a huge area, but it gives me an IC reason to but heads with TFU and others who try and move in. Considering some of the tremendous numbers thrown around in the FT community, my forces are actually on the small side.
Thrashia
25-12-2004, 08:53
OOC:FINALLY!!! A Ray of Holy Light shines down upon the computer screen, the voices of angels crying out! :D

Very nice, about time someone typed something like that up. All newbies who think they can summon a huge fleet from the nether world better read this.

As for small nations trying to get FT stuff, well its like what Skeelzania said, "so long as you rp it right, its ok." I myself go by the rule that my military is never more than .2% of my population, pluse the fact that I have a clone army allows me to keep men for my fleets. :D So i sorta side-stepped loosing too many useful men in gruelling ground combat, leave it to the clones.

All in all, a very useful thread [tag]
Thrashia
25-12-2004, 08:56
Origanlly Posted by Skeelzania:
Not that this territory is necessarily filled, with planets overflowing with grimy suboids. For example, I lay claim to most of the Milky Way's "Gamma Quadrant", even though I only have at most a dozen inhabited systems and a navy of less than 800 warships. I can't possibly hope to patrol, much less govern such a huge area, but it gives me an IC reason to but heads with TFU and others who try and move in. Considering some of the tremendous numbers thrown around in the FT community, my forces are actually on the small side.

I know what you mean, I myself only have a fleet of some 250-300 ships. But off course my planet is the size of saturn so my whole population is able to live pretty well spread out.
Gurguvungunit
25-12-2004, 09:18
Sounds reasonable. I'll change it in a few days, when the lack of sleep wears off and I can type cogently again.
Der Angst
25-12-2004, 11:35
This is the hardest part on your path to space-techyness. Basically, you have to wait until your population grows, preferably to 300-400 million people.What stops them from being a lost colony, the remains of a suddenly crushed empire, a small high tech utopia or something like this, starting out spacedy, pretty much... immediately?

Righto. Nothing. And since I happen to interact with such a nation, in NS... Yeah. As said countless times by countless players...

Population requirements don't fucking exist.

At around this point, I ditched the somewhat outdated Homeworld ships in favor of Star Wars types.Now, apart from the thing that I do not really see the point in buying ships (Since the nation providing them knows what they can do, how they can be used/ RPed etc., more than a possible customer could ever know, hence, why I consider it to be vastly perferable to build your own stuff, possibly including some basic research/ upscaling, or help from physics- minded people), I might note that no one in NS is, say, a Galactic Empire with a 100000 year backstory.

Well, ok, actually, there might be several, the thing is, they are different. What the fuck is the point of ripping off SF Show technology when you're not playing the canon of said show? It just makes no sense. For gods sake, it isn't that hard to be creative. And it is WAAAAAAAAAAY preferable to ripping off SDNet's 'RAWR! SW IS DA BEST BECUASE I SAY SUO!!!11'.

And possibly its OMFG GIGATON YIELDS!!!11.

When you get really big, like 1 billion or more, consider going galactic. In other words, pick a planet that’s uninhabited, and move your nation there. It’s a lot more reasonable than the overcrowded Earth, and your people can live in individual houses, should they so desire. Your Vice President’s days of sleeping in his boss’ closet are over.

How exactly do you move an entie population (Which is unlikely to stop breeding, anyway), its industry, necessary supplies (Food, Water) etc etc from one system to the next? Especially without losing basically everything and starting out in the stoneage, since you just threw away basically, uh... Everything you created in $Backstory and $Pre- Move NS History?

Oh, right. Doesn't work.

Especially since your people might not like the idea of, say, moving, leaving everything, their entire past behind. A few, sure. This works for a colony. All? Don't make me laugh.

And I wont even get into this ludicrous population requirements... Again.

That being said, I’d like to address an annoying misconception regarding Nuclear Weapons. Nukes are big and scary in an atmosphere. They make a thoroughly badass shock wave that melts cities. In space, however, nukes are not nearly as deadly, where there is nothing to carry the shockwave. Thus, the main killers would be heat and radiation, and the blast radius would be much, much smaller. The radiation will dissipate fairly quickly, and the heat even more so. However, anything inside is still toast. While the heat and radiation dissipate quickly, they certainly stick about long enough to kill anything within the blast radius. If you’ve got a small, new space nation, nukes ought to make fine payloads for your missiles.I'm not entirely sure if my assumption is correct, but I'm assuming that you would get a lot of Gamma Rays/ Hard X Rays hitting the hull of a ship. Depending on how close the detonation was, this could probably result in the outer layer of the hull vaporising, and, worse, a whole lot of aforementioned Gamma Rays/ X Rays getting through the hull. Into the ship. Where there is an atmosphere (Well, usually...). Which will be heated, just like a nuke inside an atmosphere heats it.

And bang, you have your blast, inside the ship.

Granted, it would pretty much need to be a 'On Contact' explosion, but still.

You can certainly roleplay space/future tech versus present or past tech. It’s been done before, and can lead to very cool RPs. However, should you choose to do this, remember that although your plasma rays may melt space ships, a catapult can put a biggish hole in one too. Your space marines may have teh uber death rifles, but King Henry’s bowmen can still put an arrow in your guys. You might have the advantage, but a disciplined enemy can still inflict damage on you.The catapult would result in a minor dent, and the bowmen would be exterminated by aerial/ orbital bombardements. It is far simpler. If the classical/ medieval/ modern/ non- spacedy player wants it, for fun, sure. It will be a slaughter, though. If he doesn't, one leaves him alove.

If you’re going to put it in deep space, you’ll have to re-supply it somewhat frequently.Well, if modern nuclear submarines manage it for what? A year until they need to go back home, I don't exactly see the problem, here...

But now for the positive thing. I agree with the rest. Well, at least I don't disagree...
GMC Military Arms
25-12-2004, 11:47
Nope, this ain't going to be sticky'd. Repeat what Der Angst said about population limits for the why.

OOC: I.I is mostly a modern tech setting. This would probably be better suited in the N.S forum, where a majority of the space tech nations hang out.

Now you're just making stuff up.
Axis Nova
25-12-2004, 11:47
Your guide fails to account for nations that START as a very high tech nation.

Heck, I could easily see someone making a nation that exists entirely as a gigantic nomadic space fleet. 10 million people isn't much for a country, but they sure could crew a lot of ships.
GMC Military Arms
25-12-2004, 11:51
Your guide fails to account for nations that START as a very high tech nation.

Heck, I could easily see someone making a nation that exists entirely as a gigantic nomadic space fleet. 10 million people isn't much for a country, but they sure could crew a lot of ships.

You'd have a few problems with supplies in such a fleet-nation, to be fair...Less you went around Independence Day'ing planets for raw materials, I suppose.
Lessr Tsurani
25-12-2004, 12:16
OOC Yes, My nation started out as a empire that had just fallen. This whole thing is used for nations starting out as earth based MT Nations that intend to go space fleet. I mean, waiting until your population is 400 million? Your kidding right? That takes time, and for some reason you think that people are going to hold off FT for THAT long?! Anyway, next problem.

The 5% rule is usless for FT nations. Considering that if you go by this rule, it is impossible to take a heavily defended world without empting your entire nation of ships and army. You have to remember it takes a large number of men to take a planet. More then you can feild if you need to have a Fleet AND a land force. TO take a major world, you need to be able to feild enough ground troops to kill their defences, armies, establish order, and all that, on a planatary scale. You do realise that if you have that many men, its like china or russian and america fighting over the entire world. You need to consider your fleet a seperate part of your army, not under the 5% rule, otherwise you will suffer. Now, don't say you don't have the economy to have that many armed men, here comes the next part.

THe fact is, with all your coloies, there will be HEAPS of reasoses. Now, I am assuming this is for Human empires, so as such, will act accordingly. You notice in your list "Pay is going to rise." Once more, this is an assumtion. Some nations don't do this, MY nation no one gets paid, and I am sure some nations use brain washed soldiers. You are assuming to much, as a lot of FT players are not human.

Now, Here comes the big one, your limits on how much your pop should be. That is just stupid, as was said before, there should be none, you could be a washed up colony of an empire that fell apart, you could have a fleet that is controled by AI since your nation created it, you could be an empire that use small fast ships. THe fact that you said you can't really build ships until your pop is 500 mill is stupid, they can have AI factories that do it all for them, they might have slaves, their ships might be living things. All these thingsyou need to understand. Good guide, but It really is limited to Earth nations starting off as MT.
Der Angst
25-12-2004, 13:02
Ahem...

The 5% rule is usless for FT nations. Considering that if you go by this rule, it is impossible to take a heavily defended world without empting your entire nation of ships and army. You have to remember it takes a large number of men to take a planet. More then you can feild if you need to have a Fleet AND a land force. TO take a major world, you need to be able to feild enough ground troops to kill their defences, armies, establish order, and all that, on a planatary scale. You do realise that if you have that many men, its like china or russian and america fighting over the entire world. You need to consider your fleet a seperate part of your army, not under the 5% rule, otherwise you will suffer.What you're saying is that it is basically impossible for the typical NS nation to conquer an entire planet with someone else's main nation based on it.

Congratulations, Sir, you're right. Here, get your trophy.

*Hands over the trophy*

And the 'Hey, my military is larger because I have to take over $World' argument you use is... Horrendously... Retarded. You're wishing something, and because you can't deal with the harsh reality, you say that your wish is reality.

Hate to bring this to you, but... No deal.

THe fact is, with all your coloies, there will be HEAPS of reasoses. Now, I am assuming this is for Human empires, so as such, will act accordingly. You notice in your list "Pay is going to rise." Once more, this is an assumtion. Some nations don't do this, MY nation no one gets paid, and I am sure some nations use brain washed soldiers.You really suffer from 'I PWN!' hubris, yes?

1. Balance issues. Use your fucking nationstats. I know perfectly well that some UN rankings don't make sense, and are ignorable. But your most basic stats, I.E. population, economy and such things, are there. And now comes the thing.

To have game balance, Fairness and the likes, some random people (Like, say, me) might assume that this basic statistics are used to explain your overall capacities. Sure, you can RP finding some ressource- rich colony world. You can tweak yourself a little. Nothing wrong with that. But in the greater scheme, this are peanuts.

Oh, and of course, colonies tend to need ressources, rather than bringing you additional ones, as was thew case during the age of imperialism.

Then, some of your arguments are seriously... Amusing. You don't pay your people? You mean they starve to death? Or they are rebellous? You have a monstrous police state to quell revolutions? Costs money, reduces efficiency. In other words, you're fucked (Oh, and assuming some less insane 'No one gets paid' version, with just, ah... payments staying the same, and relatively low.. This would ruin your economy. Who will buy your products? With what money? Oh, sure, you can export... But annoyingly, NS is full of economic powerhouses. Who might be closer. Cheaper. Better. The market is... Limited. And the poor nation you could export to... OMG THEY CAN'T PAY YOU, EITHER!!!11).

Oh, but of course, I'm sure your nation is full of willin slaves. 'FOR THE EMPEROR!!!11' Does your ego really need several billion pieces of data on a server in the uk, all VERY LOYAL to your plots, just to compensate for a lack of... other things?

Sad, really.
Zakia
25-12-2004, 13:42
OOC: As a relatively new FTer and a season MTer (Kriegorgrad is my main nation in MT), I disagree with your first point about having to wait for your nation to grow, while I understand this and get the logic behind it, I believe it is unfair to deny nations the right to RP future tech just because the nation isn't big enough, anyway, my FT puppet is called Zakia as I am sure you've gathered and while I have done something quite...naughty, I believe it is only fair because I am a reasonably experienced nation and I should be able to RP FT without going through the trial period of MT.

And what is this naughty thing I hear you ask, I'll give it to you in two words: Puppet Wanking. Well in a matter of speaking, Zakia uses Kriegorgrad's (2 billion) population for it's use in RP, I think this is acceptable only because Zakia will never come into contact with Kriegorgrad, nor the MT world, so Zakia is essentially another vessel to house my spirit.

I've rambled on enough, excellent guide!
Islamaisbad
25-12-2004, 13:57
you should have titled this
"How Gurguvungunit Roleplays a Successful Space-Tech Nation"
Whittier-
25-12-2004, 14:13
Subscribed. Because I might find this useful in the future. Especially since I know nothing about space tech or future tech. With the exception of modern space tech.
Whittier-
25-12-2004, 14:17
For currency conversions for nations outside the US you could use this site to convert to your own national currency.

http://www.xe.net/cgi-bin/convert.new
Hotdogs2
25-12-2004, 14:22
OOC: TAG, for future use if i become a Future tech nation(i may well do so!) bassically same reason as Whittiers. lol
Thrashia
25-12-2004, 20:27
Last Posted by Lessr Tsurani:
More then you can feild if you need to have a Fleet AND a land force. TO take a major world, you need to be able to feild enough ground troops to kill their defences, armies, establish order, and all that, on a planatary scale. You do realise that if you have that many men, its like china or russian and america fighting over the entire world. You need to consider your fleet a seperate part of your army, not under the 5% rule, otherwise you will suffer. Now, don't say you don't have the economy to have that many armed men, here comes the next part.

Actually, if your gonna conquer a nation who occupies a whole planet then you dont have to take out all of it. Since theres water on every planet that elminates that(unless they live under water, but thats another story), and even then all you have to do is aim for all major cities and the capital where to government is. Cut off the head of a snake and its body cant move. I myself use the .5% rule for my fleet, my ground army is a clone army which I can mass produce if I want without fearing that my own population with suffer. This of course makes my fleet the only thing manned by humans instead of clones.
Der Angst
25-12-2004, 20:31
The thing is... That... Clones.... Are... Humans... And... Count... As... Population...

Or do you deny identical twins... Citizenship?

(And of course, clones still need food, healthcare, are individuals with their own minds, can rebel, have opinions, etc. etc... Not to mention that they wont grow any faster than a normal human, I.E. you need what? 16 years before you can use your product? No, wait, 16 years until serious training can begin...)
Thrashia
25-12-2004, 20:44
OOC:They are human, but are things that can be produced thus not part of the "real" human population. Clones are not born, they are made.
Greater Beijing
25-12-2004, 21:26
So theyre an even greater economic burden since they have to be made no?
Gurguvungunit
25-12-2004, 21:47
Well, fair enough. Guess I learned wrong then? Alright. [edits], so no newbs accidently follow any bad advice I've given.
Siesatia
25-12-2004, 22:16
Heh, this is a really good thread. As a bit of advice, you may want to list a few shipyards that sell cheap, but good quality ships, such as Klonors, or some people may like mine, as I've been told alot of the cheaper stuff is pretty good starter equipment. Such as the Raptor P3X 20's - 40's. (I am not advertising, but giving examples)
My advice to the newbies, please please please, build/buy small, it does not help your reputation to have even a couple heavy captial ships. Start out with planet based fighters, and maybe even a pocket carrier, as they can be pretty small.

My advice to a small FT nation:

40% Fighters/Bombers/Scouts
10% Tankers/Cargo/Ammunition Carriers
20% Cruisers/Destroyers
5% Carriers
5% Colonization Ships
10% Science Ships
10% Command Vessels


Once you reach about 500 Million or so you can adjust this to your preference, but always remember that your Battleship percentage should never be above 30% of your fleet, and Dreadnoughts should make up 1 - 5% of your entire fleet.

Colo Ships are hard to staff/Supply/maintain/run So dont make to many of them, or you may find yourself pennyless for the military aspect of your fleets.
The Merchant Guilds
25-12-2004, 22:33
All in all a really good beginners guide to FT. You are to be commended...

One further point, if you use unusual space tech (like me) remeber to justify it in so far as state what it's about in character RP's... I introduced mine through general description and over the course of several diplomatic/first contact/joint research RP's.

Also can I please stress this for the sake of making it more interesting:

Please try to go beyond using Star Wars and Warhammer/Epic 40k Tech

I personally character RP the Shadows from Babylon 5 with a load of new ideas being currently filtered in (think Thirdspace Race style Battleships and the Shadows creating all sorts of Drug related products to bring Chaos to the universe)...

It's just a plea because so many nations use Star Destroyers and Space Marines... it does start to get on your nerves (or mine). Use them but make new alternations, change names etc :D
DemonLordEnigma
26-12-2004, 02:35
Not bad, but I've seen much, much, much, much better advice. For one thing, this has an inherent assumption problem that is illogical and advice I would advise against.

The problem is the idea of 300 million being the lowpoint for FT. It is not bothering to take into account the reality of nations. Nations grow, shrink, divide, and even fall. What is today a colony may tomorrow be trying to survive without the nation or empire that established it, all the while being well below 300 million. Just because the empire or nation that established the colony fell/pulled back/whatever doesn't automatically mean the nation reverts back to MT. They will likely preserve as much tech as they can for their survival.

Another method is people leaving one FT nation to create another. They arrive in small numbers, establish settlements, and begin the work of building their own nation.

The point is this: Population size should not matter for tech level.

Now, one person asked about supplies. The answer is simple. Contrary to what Thrashia said, most planets do not have water. Most planets are either gas giants or lifeless rocks. Planets naturally capable of supporting life are quite rare. You want resources? Put mines on the lifeless rocks and take from the atmospheres of the gas giants. You want to deal with supply shipping? Remember that supply transports are cheap. They don't have as many weapons, as much armor, or as many crew. You don't even need them to be counted or paid for by your fleets if you allow private corporations to deal with it. Realistically, they will be anyway.

The above, however, does not deal with war. However, there are ways around having to deal with the idea of having supply transports around, but those assume you're not going to spend days at the front fighting (you shouldn't be anyway). Those you are also advised to find or develop on your own.
Izistan
26-12-2004, 03:08
Most planets are either gas giants or lifeless rocks. Planets naturally capable of supporting life are quite rare. You want resources? Put mines on the lifeless rocks and take from the atmospheres of the gas giants. You want to deal with supply shipping? Remember that supply transports are cheap. They don't have as many weapons, as much armor, or as many crew. You don't even need them to be counted or paid for by your fleets if you allow private corporations to deal with it. Realistically, they will be anyway.


OOC: Thats where I feel my nantites would excell, as I would not need a atmosphere nor a envoirment suitable for organic life. And I have a fail safe in case of the civilizations destruction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_probe
Hence forth, I believe that I could lurk in the background of known space, transforming worlds into huge factory/weapon platforms. And I wouldn't need ultra fancy weapon systems, a few nanites introduced to a ships hull and goodbye ship.
More goodies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo
Skeelzania
26-12-2004, 03:20
OOC: Thats where I feel my nantites would excell, as I would not need a atmosphere nor a envoirment suitable for organic life. And I have a fail safe in case of the civilizations destruction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_probe
Hence forth, I believe that I could lurk in the background of known space, transforming worlds into huge factory/weapon platforms. And I wouldn't need ultra fancy weapon systems, a few nanites introduced to a ships hull and goodbye ship.
More goodies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo

Generally ubernanites are a good way to get yourself ignored. No one likes RPing against wanktastic weapons, and I doubt they'd be much fun to use anyway. If you are going to have powerful nanites its a good idea to build one or two glaring design flaws into them.
DemonLordEnigma
26-12-2004, 03:26
The best thing to remember is nanites are generally too small to protect against EMPs that even people can survive. That's what I would use on them. Also part of why DLE doesn't apply them to more areas than just medicine and the occasional assassination. Of course, my region of space has weather forecasts for ion storms much like most regions have weather forecasts for rain.
Izistan
26-12-2004, 03:27
Generally ubernanites are a good way to get yourself ignored. No one likes RPing against wanktastic weapons, and I doubt they'd be much fun to use anyway. If you are going to have powerful nanites its a good idea to build one or two glaring design flaws into them.
OOC: Well... That idea just took a nose dive into failure.
Axis Nova
26-12-2004, 08:03
You'd have a few problems with supplies in such a fleet-nation, to be fair...Less you went around Independence Day'ing planets for raw materials, I suppose.

Or just use molecular foundries and forges like in Homeworld, and stripping asteroids and such for resources. *shrug*
Skeelzania
26-12-2004, 08:40
Or just use molecular foundries and forges like in Homeworld, and stripping asteroids and such for resources. *shrug*

Unless I'm mistaken in Homeworld and Homeworld 2 you're gathering resources for at most a few thousand people. Supplying a nation of millions and possibily billions would be on a whole different level.
Hiroshiko
26-12-2004, 09:59
I concur with most of the advice given on this, but, as with most people, I am also bothered by the population thing. Pehaps re-wording it or simply removing it would be the best option.
Axis Nova
26-12-2004, 10:21
Unless I'm mistaken in Homeworld and Homeworld 2 you're gathering resources for at most a few thousand people. Supplying a nation of millions and possibily billions would be on a whole different level.

Asteroid belts and so forth have far more material in them than you realize *shrug*
The Merchant Guilds
26-12-2004, 10:52
I tend to use a Planetarion convert idea of the Astropod... to almost literally suck and asteroid dry your useable material (which tbh is most of it) and excrete upon returning to a world or ship the end products, which are useful to me (yes they're organic too). There are billions of asteriods in the galaxy and millions more entering/exiting it every year.... I really don't see the problem... they may not be infinite but they might as well be...

As for worlds that support life, remeber that we are not only talking about carbon based life, we are talking about anylife... life maybe different from what we currently assume it to be... you can also build above or below ground domes to use and cultivate materials/agriculture from there as far as it possible... you don't need the world to have life to cultivate life. You just to introduce life to it... (yes of course it'd be a long process).

Fleet nations are fine, if you can say how you are getting round all problems inherent with that, also you must of course have a reasonably small population to cope with that... Do you want planet sized ships?

Just general ideas...
Xenonier
26-12-2004, 14:02
Unless I'm mistaken in Homeworld and Homeworld 2 you're gathering resources for at most a few thousand people. Supplying a nation of millions and possibily billions would be on a whole different level.

Actually, the Homeworld Mothership was designed to house, hold, care for AND provide the raw materials for the new Higaaran colony, which would be 600 000 people (Six Cyro Trays, 100 000 people in each) through the breakdown of the asteriods. Or so the manual says ...

I'm moving into Space Technology from FT soon. I'm editing and toying around with a thread in which my nation launches a fleet of Destroyers, loosely based of the Homeworld 2 Higaaran design.. (I just love the look the multiple gun turrets give the that ship, it's a throwback to the battleships of old and I love it!.)

I don't agree with the population limit, as my backstory is my nation is the survivors of an apocalpytic war between two empires, and is looking for a place to settle. Hell, the Andromeda Galaxy sounds nice ... I'll have to see about that one when my nation grows up..

Just on question - does anyone have problems with a coalition of nations working together on launching into space? It seems unusal that, given the turbulent and ever-changing world of diplomacy, some nations would combine on such a project.
Praetonia
26-12-2004, 14:07
Looks good, although your thing on prices I would dispute. I agree that for us it is more expensive to field a Stardestroyer than a Nimitz, but then Ships-of-the-Line were expensive a long time ago. Now? Probably not.
Skeelzania
26-12-2004, 20:31
Actually, the Homeworld Mothership was designed to house, hold, care for AND provide the raw materials for the new Higaaran colony, which would be 600 000 people (Six Cyro Trays, 100 000 people in each) through the breakdown of the asteriods. Or so the manual says ...


But how many of that 600,000 were conscious at the time of the game? The HW2 manual gives the impression that most woke up only when they reached the new colony. Besides, that's still far short of the five million you start with, unless he plans on RPing with a smaller population. Which is fine, its been done.

I'm moving into Space Technology from FT soon. I'm editing and toying around with a thread in which my nation launches a fleet of Destroyers, loosely based of the Homeworld 2 Higaaran design.. (I just love the look the multiple gun turrets give the that ship, it's a throwback to the battleships of old and I love it!.)

Might want to inquire into purchasing Skeelzanian designs then. My weapon tech is rather generic, though I try and armor my ships as heavily as possible. Here's two new models I'm rolling out:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/Bad_Skeelz/battlecruz1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/Bad_Skeelz/battleship2.jpg


Just on question - does anyone have problems with a coalition of nations working together on launching into space? It seems unusal that, given the turbulent and ever-changing world of diplomacy, some nations would combine on such a project.

They shouldn't. It's been done in the past.
DemonLordEnigma
26-12-2004, 21:06
Another problem:

The idea of prices always scaling upwards as technology improves is showing almost willful ignorance of how advanced technology affects production costs. If production costs only scaled upwards as technology advanced, your average home PC would cost millions and no one, including any major corporation, could afford an airplane.

As technology advances, the cost of both materials and production tend to go down when compared to other products. Actual price will go up, but that's because the actual price of everything rises. Relative price, being the important one, is what goes down. That is why I am able to produce ships using graviton generators for only millions instead of spending billions or trillions on just the generator alone.
The Merchant Guilds
27-12-2004, 10:37
Another problem:

The idea of prices always scaling upwards as technology improves is showing almost willful ignorance of how advanced technology affects production costs. If production costs only scaled upwards as technology advanced, your average home PC would cost millions and no one, including any major corporation, could afford an airplane.

As technology advances, the cost of both materials and production tend to go down when compared to other products. Actual price will go up, but that's because the actual price of everything rises. Relative price, being the important one, is what goes down. That is why I am able to produce ships using graviton generators for only millions instead of spending billions or trillions on just the generator alone.

Well said that man :D
Der Angst
27-12-2004, 12:44
Another problem:

The idea of prices always scaling upwards as technology improves is showing almost willful ignorance of how advanced technology affects production costs. If production costs only scaled upwards as technology advanced, your average home PC would cost millions and no one, including any major corporation, could afford an airplane.

As technology advances, the cost of both materials and production tend to go down when compared to other products. Actual price will go up, but that's because the actual price of everything rises. Relative price, being the important one, is what goes down. That is why I am able to produce ships using graviton generators for only millions instead of spending billions or trillions on just the generator alone.

And this is why you can buy an F22 for a few thousand dollars...

No, wait, you can't.

You're partially right. The prices don't rise as excessively as they would rise, would they rise linear. Nonetheless, they rise, and, hate to bring it to you, but, ships for a couple millions, when a fucking destroyer costs a couple hundred millions, IRL, is simply... Ludicrous.

Overall, using RL naval development as a (Not exactly accurate, but better than nothing) base, one can assume that 1. Yes. Spaceships will likely get bigger. One of the reasons is doubtlessly that you will need to transport fucktons of material, if you want to be efficient. Thus, having, say, ships in the 10- 100mio m^3 range sounds kinda acceptable. (Mind you, not many ships in this range...[/i].

2. Costs will rise. A lot. Unfortunately, building, say, the Bismarck was a lot cheaper than building the Nimitz. Just like a Spitfire was a lot cheaper to build than an F 15 (Observe the far higher production, combined with far smaller industrial capacities). And yes, I'm aware of inflation and other such things. Still true.

3. Thus, you may observe another development. In 1800, the Royal Navy was able to field quite a few combat vessels/ mio citizens. A ratio of 10:1 or something along this lines. Today, the ratio (For 'normal' nations, not extreme cases like, say, Singapore) is about 1:1.

For space, and I mean normal space, not some magical C frac kinetics / gigaton yield energy weapons wank stuff, a ratio of 1:10 (One ship: Ten mio citizens) doesn't sound all that wrong. Assuming sane sized ones, that is.