NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=382914

IC:

1200 hrs LIMA (local time)

General Katanahu Nihari looked out from the dome of his Merkava Mk. V Main Battle Tank at the chaotic borderlands between Zaire and Angola as the harsh sunlight beat down on his brow.

Thanks to the discredited racial 'science' of the Decisive Action colonial government, mass slaughter and genocide was taking place, right in the Imperium's backyard. Granted, Tyrandis generally didn't care about the internal affairs of other nations, but the violence was rapidly spinning out of control. Already, some minor border skirmishes had been fought by the DRC Border Guards against fleeing Bakongo and Ovimbundu, and the frequency of these street fights was constantly increasing.

On the other hand, under the rule of the Militant Imperium of Tyrandis, the Democratic Republic of the Congo was on the way to becoming a first world nation. Through the campaigns of "cultural evolution", the colonial authorities destroyed the backwards tribal traditions that kept most of Africa from becoming rich and prosperous. Indeed, the DRC was on the way to near-independence, as the only real Tyrandisan influence on daily life was the imposition of certain economic rules.

Along with these domestic changes came the rise of a modern army, one more than capable of dealing with the militaries of the DRC's avaricious neighbors. Trained by TMILCOM, a new generation of officers and enlisted personnel had given the Democratic Republic of the Congo a massive fighting force that had both quantity and quality.

However, the rapidly deteriorating situation to the south was threating the security of the region, and had to be crushed. The violence had to be stopped, but the Decisive Action colonial authorities refused to do anything. Something had to be done, lest the maelstrom of chaos spread into the borders of sovereign Tyrandis.

And thus, Operation ONYX KNIGHT was crafted. A masterful plan to invade and restore order to the area, the DRC military would topple the corrupt Stahlecker regime and institute order to Angola.

---

[Opening Assault: Aerial]

1205 hrs LIMA

A flight of Congo warplanes would have the honor of striking the first blow against the fascist oppressors of Angola. The Democratic Republic of the Congo Air Force (DRCAF) had been rebuilt after the initial conquest ravaged it utterly. The DRCAF had in its possession, several hundred TSB-8Y Talon Multi-mission Bombers and a few thousand TSF-28A Seraph Air Superiority Fighters. These birds were the latest in Tyrandisan aerial technology, and could easily defeat the 80's-era aircraft that the DA forces used. Tyrandisan military doctrine called for the initial attack to hit communications, RADAR, and Air Defense positions hard, giving the invasion air superiority and leaving the defenders disorganized.

Within two hours, some one hundred and sixty TSB-8 Talon Multi-mission Bombers, escorted by three hundred and twenty TSF-28 Seraphs, roared off the massive airfield at Kinshasa, and began heading south towards occupied Angola. Along with these combat aircraft were two E-767 Sentinel AWACS planes. The TSB-8s kept extraordinarily low, below 100 feet, to avoid stationary SAM fire and keep under the DA RADAR's 'hard floor', ensuring that they would remain undetected until they unleashed their payloads. The Seraphs and AWACS, on the other hand, kept at an altitude of 50,000 feet, to watch the skies.

As the TSF-28s and E-767 kept a vigilant eye for Mississippian CAPs, the TSB-8s swiftly acquired their targets. RADAR, SAM batteries, airfields, communications centres were marked for destruction. All of these key positions were discovered by RAVEN SATINT and other TNIA intelligence-gathering moves.

When the TSB-8s were within one hundred kilometres of their target, some 2 AGM-88Y High-speed Anti-Radiation Missiles were launched at each and every RADAR and communications section. Seeking out the massive antennas and waveguide systems mounted on these stationary targets, each of these missiles released some 14,500 Depleted Uranium fragments at their victims. As for their other targets, the airfields and SAM batteries, five AGM-521 Tactical Land-Attack-Missiles were fired at each of these. The TLAMs were designed specifically to leave massive craters, thus rendering their targets utterly inoperable. Meanwhile, the E-767 and TSF-28 teams advanced slowly to avoid SAM battery fire. The massive RADAR on the E-767 would filter out any aircraft at several hundred km away, and send the Seraphs after them.

---

[Opening Assault: Ground]

1335 hrs LIMA

As soon as the aircraft reported their strike against the positions of DA, the army of the DRC sprang into action.

The first shots of the war on the earth were fired by the massive 145mm guns of the Centurion artillery, either towed or self-propelled. General Nihari, the overall field commander of this operation, had ordered a Time-on-Target barrage. Designed to send every single shot from the morass of field guns onto their target at the same instant, to deny their victims a chance to take cover, TOT was easily the most horrifying invention ever made in tactical barrage.

Some six thousand Centurions were assembled for this mission, their Electro-Thermal-Chemical cannons and crews lusting for the chance to liberate their brethren in the south. These shells loaded for the first volley were all Variable-Time, meaning that the fragments from the blast would crate an ice-cream cone of death, shredding the unlucky infantry within 200 feet of the radius.

As soon as this first volley ended, hydraulic loading quickly sent more shells into the guns, these being standard HE, to destroy fortified positions. The munitions whistled through the air, assisted by RAMjet propulsion, leaving corpses of men and machines in their wake. The shelling continued to pour waves of fire on the Decisive Action lines, at a rate of almost 36,000 shells per minute, but due to logistical concerns, this awe-inspiring barrage would not last for long. Either way, the guys on the other side of the wire were screwed beyond all recognition. Meanwhile, some one thousand odd M270-ER MLRS were kept in reserve, ordered to hold fire. They would remain out of sight until the DA batteries responded to the initial barrage, and begin counter-battery operations. Furthermore, several thousand Black Arrow SAMs and MINERVA Fiber-Optic-Laser Defense Arrays were spread out along the line, to protect against SSM and aerial retaliation.

The shelling ceased in one, terrible hour. From the borders of the DRC, a massive host of over 500,000 troops and armor advanced onto the soil of Angola...

---

Statement from the Department of Foreign Affairs

"Due to the evident incapability of the Decisive Action colonial govt. to maintain civil order in her territories, the Militant Imperium of Tyrandis has declared a Security Action in the state of Angola. We make this move ONLY because the continued discord threatens our nation's security."

Taggage

Tag- Go Tyrandis!

Check your telegrams shortly.

Tag

Official Statement from the Department of Foreign Affairs

"At 0600 ZULU this morning, forces of the Militant Imperium of Tyrandis have launched Operation Onyx Knight, an endeavour to restore security to the African region.

In the past weeks, Mississippian colonial authorities failed to ensure civil order within their sovereign borders as thousands of natives slaughtered each other in a grotesque display of bloodshed. As a defender of national sovereignity, Tyrandis would not have acted if DA kept the carnage within her own territory.

However, the lack of response from the colonial govt has forced the hand of the Imperium in this matter. Simply put, their neglect has endangered our own nation, and has merited mobilization of military forces to the area.

We will pacify the region and restore order by any means necessary."

- Director Valerie Fenton, explaining reason for the attack to reporters at a press conference.

OOC: Glorified BUMP.

ooc: Does DA know about this?

tag

ooc: Does DA know about this?

OOC: I TGed him about it a bit earlier.

ooc: Does DA know about this?



No, he never even bothered to talk to me before this. Thus it is ignored. (Anyway, I have him on ignore from when he swore at me OOC in one of my threads, I think I deserve a little respect, at least on the board, if people want to swear at me on the IM that is, well not good, but their right, on the boards, there should be some degree of respect)

WTF? Are you sure that you own the DRC? I saw the thread where you tried to take it over and you failed miserably.

OOC: I moved the claim to Earth II since Layarteb/Colodia said I can't have any claims on any other earths.

OOC: I TGed him about it a bit earlier.



Yeah, you TGed me after the fact, when you (and the entire freaking board) by now knows that if you want to RP something big with me, you use those little IM buttons and talk to me before the fact, not after the fact.

Yeah, you TGed me after the fact, when you (and the entire freaking board) by now knows that if you want to RP something big with me, you use those little IM buttons and talk to me before the fact, not after the fact.

Bleh. I tried TGing you last night about it, but there was no response.

Also, I recall apologizing for my OOC remarks earlier, but if not, I apologize again.

Bleh. I tried TGing you last night about it, but there was no response.

Also, I recall apologizing for my OOC remarks earlier, but if not, I apologize again.



Firstly, I got nothing last night, and I was on from 5 pm to 9 am. Secondly, even if you don't get a response, there is something called waiting.

OOC: I moved the claim to Earth II since Layarteb/Colodia said I can't have any claims on any other earths.

Oh ok, sorry, I wasn't sure.

Official Statement, Imperial Government

The Imperium is considering IGNORing DA because he IGNOREs anyone who does anything that might hurt him, and he also IGNOREs people for OOC things like swearing and using the lord's name in vain (yes someone was ignored for saying "oh my god" or some such like). That kind of behaviour is n00bish.

Official Statement, Imperial Government

The Imperium is considering IGNORing DA because he IGNOREs anyone who does anything that might hurt him, and he also IGNOREs people for OOC things like swearing and using the lord's name in vain (yes someone was ignored for saying "oh my god" or some such like). That kind of behaviour is n00bish.



Ooc- Firstly, I just ask people talk with me, I've RPed things before not to my advantage (Firebase Fabus, how was it to my advantage to lose 1/2 of the strength of my 3 best parachute divisions? Don't forget my loss of Libya, and then Angola a few months ago, before I gained Angola back)

Anyway, they said "god--mnit" not "Oh my god", and they directed it at me specificially (not just saying it for the sake of saying it, but using it as an insult) and it was in a thread of mine, my thread... I think in my threads, if people are going to come into them, should show at least a bare minimum of respect.

Then tell them that. Dont ignore them. Ignoring is an IC thing, and your liberal use of it does not reflect favourably apon you.

No, he never even bothered to talk to me before this. Thus it is ignored.
For the love of all that's holy, DA. This logic is incredibly asinine. It's called a surprise attack.

You must not value realism at all, or at least not enough to participate in Earth II or even NS as a whole. If everyone HAD to get permission to invade someone else first, then you'd always get those "Well, I don't have the time..." just as an excuse to avoid a costly war.

I HOPE Layarteb has enough sense to allow the invasion to continue, and if you still refuse to respond to Tyrandis's attacks, then he should give him your territory.

Everything about the invasion was perfectly legit, thus there was no cause for your ignore.

(Anyway, I have him on ignore from when he swore at me OOC in one of my threads, I think I deserve a little respect, at least on the board, if people want to swear at me on the IM that is, well not good, but their right, on the boards, there should be some degree of respect)
If IC actions shoudn't affect OOC actions, as you say, then how can OOC affect IC? Your logic here is faulty and childish.

For the love of all that's holy, DA. This logic is incredibly asinine. It's called a surprise attack.

You must not value realism at all, or at least not enough to participate in Earth II or even NS as a whole. If everyone HAD to get permission to invade someone else first, then you'd always get those "Well, I don't have the time..." just as an excuse to avoid a costly war.

I HOPE Layarteb has enough sense to allow the invasion to continue, and if you still refuse to respond to Tyrandis's attacks, then he should give him your territory.

Everything about the invasion was perfectly legit, thus there was no cause for your ignore.


If IC actions shoudn't affect OOC actions, as you say, then how can OOC affect IC? Your logic here is faulty and childish.


Ooc- He has no IC reason to invade my land. My nations domestic problems are my own concern. If I could go invading people for any reasons, I'd have invaded Sevaris, The Canadian Union, whoever owns Mozambique, whoever owns Sudan, whoever owns Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, etc. But you really need reasons to attack other RPers, and my domestic issues that don't affect him, are not real issues. He is concerned violence might spill over the border into his colony, well it has yet to do so, and until it does (if it does) I don't think he has a casus belli.

Ooc- He has no IC reason to invade my land. My nations domestic problems are my own concern.
THAT DOESN'T MATTER. He invaded, deal with it. You act like a baby every time this happens.

If I could go invading people for any reasons, I'd have invaded Sevaris, The Canadian Union, whoever owns Mozambique, whoever owns Sudan, whoever owns Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, etc.
There's nothing stopping you. I don't think they're as childish as others.

Anyway, Tyrandis and I were talking about this earlier, trying to work something out that might be mutually acceptable. Since he has no IC justification, he should be glad I'm even listening to his arguments.

OOC: Like you said:

He is concerned violence might spill over the border into his colony

I was already having to deal with the odd straggler/refugee group, and since it was evident that the IC DA authorities were incompetent and incapable of controlling their own territories, I felt the need to act before I had a full-scale refugee situation in my colony.

Anyway, Tyrandis and I were talking about this earlier, trying to work something out that might be mutually acceptable. Since he has no IC justification, he should be glad I'm even listening to his arguments.
That's ridiculous. It's a game, not something that should be worked out. Moron (oh, no- please don't ignore me).

THAT DOESN'T MATTER. He invaded, deal with it. You act like a baby every time this happens.


There's nothing stopping you. I don't think they're as childish as others.



So I got into a few MSN messenger arguments with people over the last few weeks, can I invade them to "teach them a lesson".


Perhaps I don't like somebody's OOC values, I can go after them IC for it? Makes sense, we can have a game of constant childish conflicts over trivial non-IC issues.


How about, "My leader doesn't like your leaders last name! Die fool!"


Then we can have nothing but wars fought over no real reason at all, that makes sense.

(rolls eyes)

OOC: Like you said:



I was already having to deal with the odd straggler/refugee group, and since it was evident that the IC DA authorities were incompetent and incapable of controlling their own territories, I felt the need to act before I had a full-scale refugee situation in my colony.



No, I never RPed any refugees or border violence. You can't RP what my people do, that is called godmodding. Besides, the RP was already planned out with my other RP pals and your sending masses of troops across the border (without even bothering to tell me so it could be worked into our planning) would totally mess it up to no ends.

So I got into a few MSN messenger arguments with people over the last few weeks, can I invade them to "teach them a lesson".
Yes, you can. The only real reason you NEED an excuse is so other countries won't cry foul and jump in on the other side (only because it's immoral ICly, BTW).

Perhaps I don't like somebody's OOC values, I can go after them IC for it? Makes sense, we can have a game of constant childish conflicts over trivial non-IC issues.


How about, "My leader doesn't like your leaders last name! Die fool!"


Then we can have nothing but wars fought over no real reason at all, that makes sense.

:rollseyes:
See above. Nothing's stopping you; excuses are for the International Community and so you can keep your reputation as an RPer.

No, I never RPed any refugees or border . You can't RP what my people do, that is called godmodding. Besides, the RP was already planned out with my other RP pals and your sending masses of troops across the border (without even bothering to tell me so it could be worked into our planning) would totally mess it up to no ends.
God forbid he messes up your story lines!! Because EVERYONE knows that's what NS is all about.

Can't you see that unexpected things can only enrich the story? It's called realism; perhaps you'd like to see everyone in NS just get together and come up with one big story line, and everyone just post what they're assigned to, so everyone can live happily ever after and nothing unexpected happens, because those are scary...

Yes, you can. The only real reason you NEED an excuse



Read the RP stickies again, you're so far off with regards to IC and OOC, it's not funny. By the way, for your childish moaning, welcome to my ignore list.

No, I never RPed any refugees or border violence. You can't RP what my people do, that is called godmodding. Besides, the RP was already planned out with my other RP pals and your sending masses of troops across the border (without even bothering to tell me so it could be worked into our planning) would totally mess it up to no ends.

I know I can't RP what your own people do, but wouldn't it be a natural reaction to run the hell away from where the kill-zones are?

Yes, I realized it probably would have ruined your plans for the RP, but I'd rather nip things in the bud rather than wait until they become a situation I can't handle effectively (on my terms).

Read the RP stickies again, you're so far off with regards to IC and OOC, it's not funny. By the way, for your childish moaning, welcome to my ignore list.
I'm talking realism. Maybe Tyrandis's leader is a powerhungry moron puppet who just wants to grab more land- that's realistic, now he's carrying it out. People in the government with him realize that they can't just tell other nations that they want more land (even though that's what they want), so they come up with an excuse to feed them, and go ahead with their war.

NOT THE MILE LONG IGNORE LIST!

Again, letting OOC conversation affect IC ignore, even AFTER condemning it. The height of hypocrisy.

Oh my god I feel like I am a babysitter here for Christ's sake.

First off, DA how many people in Earth II do you have on your ignore list for whatever March 2002 reason you can muster?

Secondly, what's there to talk about, in the world of NS there is no written rule that says all RP's must be first approved before they begin.

Thirdly, so what if there's no IC justification. Did Japan have justification in WWII? Did we give any accurate justification for Iraq in 2003? No, we just did it and thus it happened. You don't need a reason to start a war, sheesh LBJ lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

This is getting out of hand with all the damn ignores you have. First IDF, now Tyrandis, who else might I ask?

An example to back up my argument:

Pearl Habor severely messed up the US's plans for WWII, but THEY couldn't simply ignore it. And look what ended up. In the NS world, it would have been the best RP ever. OOPS- even though it didn't follow the intended 'storyline'.

I'm talking realism. Maybe Tyrandis's leader is a powerhungry moron puppet who just wants to grab more land- that's realistic, now he's carrying it out. People in the government with him realize that they can't just tell other nations that they want more land (even though that's what they want), so they come up with an excuse to feed them, and go ahead with their war.

NOT THE MILE LONG IGNORE LIST!

Again, letting OOC conversation affect IC ignore, even AFTER condemning it. The height of hypocrisy.


I have no choice but to ignore you, if you think that OOC reasons can translate into IC actions, I could never consider RPing with you, period.

Oh my god I feel like I am a babysitter here for Christ's sake.

First off, DA how many people in Earth II do you have on your ignore list for whatever March 2002 reason you can muster?

Secondly, what's there to talk about, in the world of NS there is no written rule that says all RP's must be first approved before they begin.

Thirdly, so what if there's no IC justification. Did Japan have justification in WWII? Did we give any accurate justification for Iraq in 2003? No, we just did it and thus it happened. You don't need a reason to start a war, sheesh LBJ lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

This is getting out of hand with all the damn ignores you have. First IDF, now Tyrandis, who else might I ask?

Me! Me! I feel priveliged. Even if it is for some god-forsaken, totally nonsensical reason. Hey man, might I ask, why are you involved in this? *Looks perplexed*

First IDF, now Tyrandis, who else might I ask?
Me, for one.

Try to hold the fort, Tyrandis and Layarteb, I've gotta call my gf. I'll be back by tomorrow morning, though.

I have no choice but to ignore you, if you think that OOC reasons can translate into IC actions, I could never consider RPing with you, period.
You moron, can you not see the hypocrisy of that last sentence? YOU'RE ignoring ME ICly because of OOC reasons. I haven't ignored anyone my entire time on NS, so your accusations are as asinine as they are childish.

Me! Me! I feel priveliged. Even if it is for some god-forsaken, totally nonsensical reason. Hey man, might I ask, why are you involved in this? *Looks perplexed*

<-- Runs Earth II with Colodia...

Oh my god I feel like I am a babysitter here for Christ's sake.

First off, DA how many people in Earth II do you have on your ignore list for whatever March 2002 reason you can muster?

Secondly, what's there to talk about, in the world of NS there is no written rule that says all RP's must be first approved before they begin.

Thirdly, so what if there's no IC justification. Did Japan have justification in WWII? Did we give any accurate justification for Iraq in 2003? No, we just did it and thus it happened. You don't need a reason to start a war, sheesh LBJ lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

This is getting out of hand with all the damn ignores you have. First IDF, now Tyrandis, who else might I ask?


The USA was attempting to stop Japan's planned aggressions by cutting of the flow of much required resources (mainly oil)

The US Pacific Fleet was the main obstacle to planned Japanese aggression in the Pacific.


Comrade Bush and Premier Blair gave false reasons to get their foolish lemming people into supporting an unjustified war.

There was no attack at Gulf of Tonkin.


So Pearl Harbor had justifiable reasons, but the other two did not, but they had good and convincing reasons, not just, "Well um... We need to attack because... um... let's attack!"

The USA was attempting to stop Japan's planned aggressions by cutting of the flow of much required resources (mainly oil)

The US Pacific Fleet was the main obstacle to planned Japanese aggression in the Pacific.


Comrade Bush and Premier Blair gave false reasons to get their foolish lemming people into supporting an unjustified war.

There was no attack at Gulf of Tonkin.


So Pearl Harbor had justifiable reasons, but the other two did not, but they had good and convincing reasons, not just, "Well um... We need to attack because... um... let's attack!"

The US did so in response to a growing threat from Japan of their imperialistic desires. One can say Iraq was a threat in that Saddam was a very evil, evil, evil man and let's face it, butching all those people was definitely not a good thing.

But not to go into an OOC tirade, what about the other questions I proposed?

The USA was attempting to stop Japan's planned aggressions by cutting of the flow of much required resources (mainly oil)

The US Pacific Fleet was the main obstacle to planned Japanese aggression in the Pacific.


Comrade Bush and Premier Blair gave false reasons to get their foolish lemming people into supporting an unjustified war.

There was no attack at Gulf of Tonkin.


So Pearl Harbor had justifiable reasons, but the other two did not, but they had good and convincing reasons, not just, "Well um... We need to attack because... um... let's attack!"

...I repeat again, the reason for my attack was simple: The situation in Angola was of grave concern to my country, and I felt the need to intervene. Look, if I really wanted to begin an attack for no reason, I'd launch a full-fledged invasion of Mississippi without giving a single justification to the intl community.

My ignore list is NOT a MILE long either, here it is, in it's near entirety (There are some people not on the list, because I like to read their RPs, but I ignore them IC-wise for various reasons... This list is probably 1/2 of the people I ignore)


Adyndril
Alutia
Axis Nova
British Morocco
Canad a
Celack
Chellis
Communist Rule
Cularia
DemonLordEnigma
Der Fuhrer Dyszel
DontPissUsOff
East Coast Federation
Hamptonshire
Hataria
Hrstrovokia
IDF
Jonothana
Leefleslovakiaistan
Mahanoy
Morathania
Parlim
Roman Republic
Ronius Vigilantes
Sarzonia
SovietRepublicofRussia
Tennesee Fans
The European State
The Phoenix Milita
The Vorta Hadar
Unified Sith
Vastiva
Yerffej

OOC:

Now maybe it's just the rum finally taking its toll, but I would like to know the philosophies of the players currently involved in this argument. It seems as though since the two parties aren't going to come to a reasonable conclusion based on historical or even character based evidence, it might be prudent to look at the out of character philosophies of the nations involved.

My question: Do you play for the story and the character development, or do you play to win?

Of course this question is not black and white; I'm not looking for a definitive answer (since we're all driven to be "better" in one aspect or another), but rather what is more of the driving force when you write. Perhaps if we can look at this question both sides might be able to discuss in a RATIONALIZED debate with clear cognitive arguments backed up with a reasonable amount of personal explanation.

Thank you for your time, now I'm going to lie down for a second.

OOC:

Now maybe it's just the rum finally taking its toll, but I would like to know the philosophies of the players currently involved in this argument. It seems as though since the two parties aren't going to come to a reasonable conclusion based on historical or even character based evidence, it might be prudent to look at the out of character philosophies of the nations involved.

My question: Do you play for the story and the character development, or do you play to win?

Of course this question is not black and white; I'm not looking for a definitive answer (since we're all driven to be "better" in one aspect or another), but rather what is more of the driving force when you write. Perhaps if we can look at this question both sides might be able to discuss in a RATIONALIZED debate with clear cognitive arguments backed up with a reasonable amount of personal explanation.

Thank you for your time, now I'm going to lie down for a second.



I play for story and character, but if I let people get away with it, they'd walk all over me, RP taking all my colonies under the label of "Well do you always need to win!" never letting me win once, and I'd soon run out of things to RP, because things I like to do involve insurgencies and counter-insurgencies in colonies, etc, stuff like that.

I don't "Play to win" per se, but I do "Play to continue" meaning I need to play in such a way I have a degree of RP continuity, and that means allowing myself room to have future RPs... I don't have room if I have no colonies to RP in.

Anyway, I've RPed defeats in the past, look at Firebase Fabus, the collapse of the Fabus Monarchy in TBD, the loss of Libya, etc.


I play to have fun, and that means occasional wins and occasional losses, but my enemies (either IC or OOC) just want to see me lose all the time because they hate me (although my OOC enemies, those who hate me for OOC reasons, are basically viciously anti-me and are RL commies, my IC enemies are nice people OOC but IC they hate me, hence they're my IC enemies and they want to see my regime fall... I respect my IC enemies, my OOC enemies, I detest)

OOC:

Now maybe it's just the rum finally taking its toll, but I would like to know the philosophies of the players currently involved in this argument. It seems as though since the two parties aren't going to come to a reasonable conclusion based on historical or even character based evidence, it might be prudent to look at the out of character philosophies of the nations involved.

My question: Do you play for the story and the character development, or do you play to win?

Of course this question is not black and white; I'm not looking for a definitive answer (since we're all driven to be "better" in one aspect or another), but rather what is more of the driving force when you write. Perhaps if we can look at this question both sides might be able to discuss in a RATIONALIZED debate with clear cognitive arguments backed up with a reasonable amount of personal explanation.

Thank you for your time, now I'm going to lie down for a second.

OOC:

First of all, I thank you for bringing a breath of fresh air in this thread.

Ok, I play as Tyrandis to, generally, to expand a story and develop the history of my nation as it goes through the various events/wars. Through this, I hope to become a better writer and thus better myself as an individual OOCly through a better understanding of politics/diplomacy and writing styles.

ICly, the goal of my nation is to maintain a theory of Objectivist Government and ensure a better life for Tyrandis's citizens at any cost. In this, I suppose I "play to win", but only to a certain point. For example, the military technology I use is on the bleeding-edge of development, but I never try using it to godmod my way out of casualties and out of defeat.

The thing is, I have plenty of OOC reasons to assault certain nations I disagree with, but I respect their IC sovereignity until their actions endanger my own nation's survival.

Also, DA:

However, the rapidly deteriorating situation to the south was threating the security of the region, and had to be crushed. The violence had to be stopped, but the Decisive Action colonial authorities refused to do anything. Something had to be done, lest the maelstrom of chaos spread into the borders of sovereign Tyrandis.

And thus, Operation ONYX KNIGHT was crafted. A masterful plan to invade and restore order to the area, the DRC military would topple the corrupt Stahlecker regime and institute order to Angola.

See, I already included an IC reason for my attack in the first post.

Also, DA:



See, I already included an IC reason for my attack in the first post.



But I don't accept that, as I never RPed anything about instalibity along the border, only in the costal cities and interior hill villages, nowhere near the border of the DRC. For you to write that my soldiers or my citizens are doing something other than what I've said they're doing, is a godmod.

But I don't accept that, as I never RPed anything about instalibity along the border, only in the costal cities and interior hill villages, nowhere near the border of the DRC. For you to write that my soldiers or my citizens are doing something other than what I've said they're doing, is a godmod.

Alright then, but the fact of the matter remains that the DA colonial govt. wasn't doing anything about the bloodshed. And since the violence was expanding, it would be natural for the DRC authority to be worried about the war spiralling out of control and ultimately, into our own borders. It's called pre-emptive action, something that the United States did in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

But you spoke of refugees and actions my people were taking, as though they were your own people.


My people are MINE, and nobody can RP their actions (unless they have my explicit permission, which you sir, did not) thus you are guilty of godmodding.

I'm for just ignoring DA all together.

IntratecAB109mm: Hi. Are you there?

TheUnforgiven57: yo

IntratecAB109mm: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?
p=7787151&postcount=40

TheUnforgiven57: I'm on the post now

TheUnforgiven57: this is ridiculous man

IntratecAB109mm: why?

IntratecAB109mm: I have good reasons for all of them

IntratecAB109mm: anybody involved in the unjustified attempted NATO attack on me (about 8 of them) got my list

IntratecAB109mm: IDF was trolling and flaming me

IntratecAB109mm: he got the list

IntratecAB109mm: DPUO refused to continue RPs with me and ticked me onto his ignore list, then he trolled my threads

IntratecAB109mm: Roman Republic trolled and spammed

IntratecAB109mm: Alutia spammed

IntratecAB109mm: Canad a trolled and spammed

IntratecAB109mm: most all of those people, at one time or another, had to be told by the mods to leave me alone

TheUnforgiven57: when you are in E2 though guess what you can't just ignore a country thats on your borders, its not like it doesnt exist because you dont feel like recognizing them

IntratecAB109mm: Tennessee Fans RPed in 1 paragraph conquering my enitre nation

IntratecAB109mm: Unified Sith trolled and spammed

TheUnforgiven57: i'm not talking about non e2 people

IntratecAB109mm: I have reasons to ignore all of those people

IntratecAB109mm: IDF doesn't exist in my world, in my RP world, he owns

none of Indiana, and it was only ever the two counties on the lake

IntratecAB109mm: not all of northern indiana as it is made out to be

IntratecAB109mm: anyway, he agreed that we don't exist in each others worlds

TheUnforgiven57: tyrandis invaded you, plain and simple, fight back he'd didnt GODMOD invade you with 34034 uber leet tanks, he did it orderly and with effort

TheUnforgiven57: he has cause you let a slaughter in angola happen

IntratecAB109mm: not really

IntratecAB109mm: that is my domestic policies

IntratecAB109mm: the RP stickies are quite clear

IntratecAB109mm: other nations internal policies are not legit IC reasons

IntratecAB109mm: besides, we didn't let it happen, the commonwealth gov't let it happen

TheUnforgiven57: in the real world they are

IntratecAB109mm: well if this was the RL, I'd attack anybody for anything

IntratecAB109mm: but I recognize this is NS and I restrain myself

TheUnforgiven57: domestic problems in somalia got us involved

IntratecAB109mm: I just want others to do likewise

IntratecAB109mm: yeah, and look what happened,

IntratecAB109mm: we did nothing when Rwanda hapened

TheUnforgiven57: no s--t

IntratecAB109mm: for fear of another somalia

IntratecAB109mm: see I can give numerous examples of nothing happening

IntratecAB109mm: for each example you can of something happening

TheUnforgiven57: but there is no rule that the domestic politics of a country
are not justification for attacking

IntratecAB109mm: it's pretty much NS accepted

IntratecAB109mm: another nations internal matters are nobody's concern

TheUnforgiven57: its not a valid exucse...i personally dont believe that anyone should meddle with the domestic policies of another country myself, if you want to genocide 800,000 go ahead i dont care as long as it doesnt affect me but in the real world it does

IntratecAB109mm: anyway, the manner he did it

TheUnforgiven57: there have been countless ns wars with domestic politics being the reason

IntratecAB109mm: everybody and their brother on NS knows, I have

IntratecAB109mm: IM

IntratecAB109mm: I basically demand to be contacted before major RPs

TheUnforgiven57: i didnt

IntratecAB109mm: Kahta demands it

IntratecAB109mm: do you see the three little buttons under my name

IntratecAB109mm: on NS

TheUnforgiven57: i have them too

IntratecAB109mm: Decisive Action
Semi-Pro Sp@mPig


Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cleveland (Aka Crack City, USA)
Posts: 5,048

TheUnforgiven57: he said he sent you a TG, you're word against his

IntratecAB109mm: no

IntratecAB109mm: I got NOTHING

IntratecAB109mm: I got a TG about 5-6 hours after he posted the attack

IntratecAB109mm: after the fact is not acceptable

TheUnforgiven57: ah-ha but you got it...could the server have maybe been hiccuping?

IntratecAB109mm: no

TheUnforgiven57: you never know

TheUnforgiven57: lately i've been having log-in problems myself of it losing my pw after a few minutes and i'm on cable so i know it isntme

TheUnforgiven57: i see him firing s--t at you but not saying what he destroyed so he isnt posting your losses...i see no just cause for ignoring this other than he didnt contact you prior to this..like they said, just because it doesnt fit your storyline isnt just cause...

IntratecAB109mm: but see, my fundamental RP value is "Does it have justification?"

IntratecAB109mm: and another one, "Is this for IC or OOC reasons"

TheUnforgiven57: YOU DONT NEED JUSTIFICATION FOR A F---ING WAR

IntratecAB109mm: tell that to Sevaris

IntratecAB109mm: I've been trying to instigate a war with him for a month

IntratecAB109mm: he keeps saying he'll just ignore it

IntratecAB109mm: it's his right to do so

IntratecAB109mm: so I keep looking for better reasons

IntratecAB109mm: if I finally get one, I'm in the clear

TheUnforgiven57: I can go up to someone and shoot him and i don't need any justification at all, the same applies...if you attack sevaris without any godmodding or stupid n00b s--t his ignore is pathetic and stupid

TheUnforgiven57: the same applies

IntratecAB109mm: besides, Tyrandis was still on my unwritten ignore list for his spamming and flaming

IntratecAB109mm: he took the lords name in vain in a thread of mine

IntratecAB109mm: in my thead

IntratecAB109mm: thread*

TheUnforgiven57: so what

IntratecAB109mm: knowing me, a religiously devout person

IntratecAB109mm: taking the lords name in vain in my thread

IntratecAB109mm: OOC

TheUnforgiven57: did a mod scold him?

IntratecAB109mm: don't think so

TheUnforgiven57: so then in the world of ns it doesnt matter

TheUnforgiven57: mods make the decisions not people

IntratecAB109mm: but there is a fundamental principle, nobody can be forced to RP with anybody they don't want

IntratecAB109mm: indeed I've had people flat out refuse to RP with me, in the middle of long-standing RPs

TheUnforgiven57: yeah but ignoring someone for this is pretty pathetic

IntratecAB109mm: the Alice-Roger Rp, Seryown walked out on it

IntratecAB109mm: he said he hated me OOC and he quit

IntratecAB109mm: so I just had somebody else take the role

IntratecAB109mm: if one attempts to force others into RPs they don't want, it's basically virtual rape, forcing yourself on them, think about it

IntratecAB109mm: women can choose who they spread their legs to and who they don't, so too can we in NS choose who we type to and who we don't.

IntratecAB109mm: it's the principle of choice

TheUnforgiven57: so if i were to attack ohio for no good reason you'd ignore it?

IntratecAB109mm: if you attacked ohio for "CAuse I wants ta" I'd ignore it lickedy split

IntratecAB109mm: but that alone probably wouldn't get you on my ignore list

IntratecAB109mm: people get ticked onto the list for a pattern of behavior I deem not conducive to contributing to my RP experience and the enjoyment of my reading audience

IntratecAB109mm: those who flame me

TheUnforgiven57: its bulls--t you dont have 100% control over what happens in the world so like i say live it. if people attack ya and godmod and crap there's nothing wrong with ignoring them but if they do it reasonably then ignoring them is just a n00bish way out of accepting losses and such

IntratecAB109mm: troll my threas

IntratecAB109mm: spam

IntratecAB109mm: but I've accepted great losses in the past

IntratecAB109mm: you need to read up on my nation

IntratecAB109mm: I've accepted losses to people I want to RP with, that is the idea, I don't mind losing millions of soldiers, or even an entire colony (indeed I lost Libya, and Angola in July)

IntratecAB109mm: but it has to be with people I want to RP with, and who want to RP with me

IntratecAB109mm: that is the whole idea

IntratecAB109mm: people who want to RP together

IntratecAB109mm: not one party forcing himself on an unwilling other NSer

TheUnforgiven57: A. You're not the NS police so what you think is good conduct doesnt mean squat because if you noticed I said "For Christ's sake" that's taking the lord's name in vain too.

B. Not everyone has to follow your rules and no everyone doesn't know that they have to contact you first in order to RP with you. I don't think NS is an exclusive club. There's no rule that you have to contact people. Personal rules are trumped by NS rules. What NS rules say goes, not you, I, or anyone else for that matter. And there's no rule that says you can ignore people if they dont ask you. Sheesh I've had people RP terrorist attacks at me without informing and i just said okay, now it's time for you to perish and walla fought them. Accept the randomity of the situation. The world is a dynamic of constant changing situations that arise out of no where.

C. He's on your border in E2 so get used to it, he isn't going anywhere.

D. All this proves to everyone is that you're a little baby about this matters. Be a man and he invaded you, fight him back, demolish him, wipe him out, who cares, but why run and cry and say I ignore...

E. He wrote it well and didn't godmod 1 bit. I can't even stretch this to come to your side whatsoever.

TheUnforgiven57: justification for attacking doesnt have to be true (i.e. Iraq)

TheUnforgiven57: at least he provided some

IntratecAB109mm: he godmodded that my citizens were pouring across his border as refugees

IntratecAB109mm: I never even alluded to that in my thread

IntratecAB109mm: I just said "people might move to internal safe-zones established by MS armed forces"

IntratecAB109mm: that is a farcry from "We're fleeing like mad into other nations"

TheUnforgiven57: It's called making up a reason to suit your cause. It's done all the time.

IntratecAB109mm: yes, in the RL, but in NS I've tried to make up reasons to attack people, most notably The Canadian Union, Sevaris, and Ottoman Khaif, but they argued their case as to why made up reasons are not acceptable, and I accepted their reasons

IntratecAB109mm: and I accepted their right to refuse to RP letting me attack them on false-IC reasons

IntratecAB109mm: when I accept that right for others, I ask it be accepted for me, I don't force my nation on others, I ask only that I be extended the same courtesy

TheUnforgiven57: NS and RL coincide. if you noticied, when someone does something that is far out of reality it is ignored...but not close to reality and guess what, most of the stuff in NS mimics RL. RL and NS go hand in hand its just that instead of it being actual people dying and this and that, it's a game.

IntratecAB109mm: but this is indeed a free-form RP, yes or no?

IntratecAB109mm: yes or no, is this free-form RP?

TheUnforgiven57: define what YOU mean by free-form

TheUnforgiven57: before i define what i mean by it

IntratecAB109mm: as the sticky says, you can RP with who you want, when you want, involving what you want, as long as both parties agree, you're free to RP basically anything that both parties agree to

TheUnforgiven57: which sticky is that

IntratecAB109mm: it's been covered time and time again

TheUnforgiven57: you said sticky which 1

TheUnforgiven57: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=282993

and i quote: "Free form means there are no rules regarding Role Play. There are rules governing behaviour in the forums, but not how you role play. That means, you can decided to pick 20 random nations and invade them, yes, this is frowned upon by many, but it is just an example of what free form means."

Referenced in STICKY
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=357975
TheUnforgiven57: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=274470

definitions of God-moding...

IntratecAB109mm: But if there are no rules on accepting attacks, we are free to RP with those we want, and not accept attacks we don't fell are justified or from people we don't want to RP with... If Hataria for instance, declares war on me, would I be expected to accept it?

IntratecAB109mm: People say I ignore attacks on me so I don't suffer losses, have you noticed, that of all the people who tried to RP attacks on me, NOT ONE OF THEM EVER CONTACTED ME

IntratecAB109mm: A few exceptions, TBD, before she attacked my embassy/base, we talked about it, so I was cool with it, it's still ongoing, we'll see how that one turns out

TheUnforgiven57: if Praetora the guy with 5b suddenly says he's attacking you and you ignore it because oh you didnt plan it or oh you didnt want it that way or whatever god awful reason you propose at that time you're the godmoding n00b...so in your situation if hataria does and it isnt some stupid, I declare war on you roxor nukes on your blah blah 7347123 uber tank mechs then i dont see how its a valdi ignore...you cant just ignore people for whatever reasons you want, it doesnt go that way, if everyone made up their own rules to the way NS was run it would be anarchy and a disaster.

they dont have to contact you, its your own personal rule, which doesnt mean squat
TheUnforgiven57: ever heard of a surprise attack? generally you dont let the other guys know it is happening (brb)

IntratecAB109mm: but all these folks who yell and moan about me not accepting attacks, NOT A SINGLE ONE has ever msged me or TGed me, at least not until well after they make their threads

IntratecAB109mm: telling me OOC "I'm going to attack you" doesn't mean I know IC

IntratecAB109mm: I like to be informed about what is going on with MY OWN nation, maybe that is unreasonable, I guess I should just sit back and let anybody who wants to attack me, even if they have no IC reason to do so, attack and take the nation I've worked for a long while on... Eh?

TheUnforgiven57: your not getting the point at all

IntratecAB109mm: no, you're not getting the point

IntratecAB109mm: we have two differing individual beliefs

IntratecAB109mm: if your neighbor comes over, knocks on your door, and demands you play him in chess, do you have to?

TheUnforgiven57: drawing correlations of this isnt helping you

IntratecAB109mm: then if somebody comes out of the woodwork on NS and goes after me without even talking to me, why do I have to do anything different from what I'd do to the chess guy, slamming the door in his face,

IntratecAB109mm: it is a matter of personal choice

IntratecAB109mm: I must just put more on an emphasis on individual liberty and freedoms of choice, than most people on NS, oh well

TheUnforgiven57: its called a surprise attack. its up to you to find out its happneing...he tg'd you, he gave you that, he posted it in the E2 thread, which btw it says under the rps tha tit is your responsibility to check. so as you can see we're going in a cricle argument

IntratecAB109mm: ah ah ah, he TGed me after the fact

TheUnforgiven57: he still did it!

IntratecAB109mm: when it's known by all those inclined to RP with me, it's known by most, I demand beforehand discussions

IntratecAB109mm: I'd still act surprised IC

IntratecAB109mm: but I need to know OOC, over messenger, what is going on

TheUnforgiven57: Then its NOT a surprise attack

IntratecAB109mm: you don't understand the difference of IC and OOC

IntratecAB109mm: telling me over AIM "I plan to get you tomorrow" I can't know IC

IntratecAB109mm: until it happens

TheUnforgiven57: You ignored him for an OOC comment

TheUnforgiven57: O.O.C.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TheUnforgiven57: but you know

IntratecAB109mm: I ignored him IC for 1) Attacking me with no IC reason. 2) not talking to me OOC beforehand. 3) Flaming me

IntratecAB109mm: no, I didn't know until after the fact

IntratecAB109mm: you are missing the point totally

IntratecAB109mm: totally

IntratecAB109mm: you just seem to fail to understand, he could tell me over MSN or whatever, "I want to attack you, sneak attack" and I can't RP knowing IC wise, I'd act surprised

IntratecAB109mm: but he never made that effort

IntratecAB109mm: he never made that effort

IntratecAB109mm: never

IntratecAB109mm: period

IntratecAB109mm: I rest my case

TheUnforgiven57: 1) He gave you a reason
2) SUR-PRISE A-TTA-CK!!!
3) You ignored him for an OOC comment which granted is your own beliefs but if you cant take words like that then buddy in RL you're in deep trouble cuz there are a---oles out there and no matter what you say they still have aright to their own opinion granted they may be from their own a---oles

Yes you'd act surprised but you'd know its coming........................................thus it wouldnt be a surprise attack

I rest my case

IntratecAB109mm: I'm going to drink a bunch now, and thus I leave with the happy thought that this solved basically nothing because you refused to see things from my point of view, although I admit I didn't really see things from your point of view, although I tried, but you just didn't seem to listen that Rpers have RP freedom

TheUnforgiven57: So you're freedom is more important than his?

TheUnforgiven57: and you refused to see from my point of view

TheUnforgiven57: and i tried too

TheUnforgiven57: but i cant even stretch this to be in your favor 1 bit

IntratecAB109mm: freedoms to do what? force yourself on others?

TheUnforgiven57: he's not raping you alright this is not something of that matter

IntratecAB109mm: so in RL, he'd be free to rape any woman he wants on the theory that they can't refuse

IntratecAB109mm: I can refuse to RP with anybody I want, and they can refuse to RP with me

IntratecAB109mm: indeed as I said, people have just up and quit in the middle of ongoing major RPs

TheUnforgiven57: i know all about appeals to this and that so the rl rape thingy isnt getting you anywhere

IntratecAB109mm: and I had to find others to fill in for them

TheUnforgiven57: then you know what i'm going to ask everyone on E2 to ignore you for being a little baby

IntratecAB109mm: I don't think any will

IntratecAB109mm: I think my writing ability is beyond reproach

IntratecAB109mm: and people know and respect my writing talent

TheUnforgiven57: it doesnt matter because tyrandis can write well too

IntratecAB109mm: and my RPs are fun to read

IntratecAB109mm: so I'm a baby because I won't RP with people who troll into my threads and treat me like dirt?

IntratecAB109mm: I have standards, that makes me a baby

IntratecAB109mm: so a man can beat his wife, and expect her to willingly sleep with him at the end of the day, because she can't be a baby about it...

IntratecAB109mm: All I asked is that people contact me beforehand and we work things out

IntratecAB109mm: that is not so unreasonable

IntratecAB109mm: he made NO ATTEMPT to do it

IntratecAB109mm: and my IM buttons are CLEARLY POSTED

TheUnforgiven57: until NS adopts a full rule that that must be done guess what it doesnt matter

IntratecAB109mm: I was in the middle of a major RP involving Angola, and I could possibly have worked him into it, but he made no attempt to get together with me and the other RPers so we could ease his transition into the RP without messing up the rest of the plot line

IntratecAB109mm: NS rules basically seem to be each individual has his own rules, yes?

TheUnforgiven57: its called randomity

TheUnforgiven57: no

IntratecAB109mm: well that is how I see it

TheUnforgiven57: yes and your interpretation is not the end-all be-all of NS

IntratecAB109mm: Yeah, well neither is yours

IntratecAB109mm: we could both be wrong

IntratecAB109mm: which of us is to say who is right?

IntratecAB109mm: I think it's your right to RP how you want with who you want

IntratecAB109mm: and I reserve the same right for myself

IntratecAB109mm: who is trying to force who into RPing here?

IntratecAB109mm: Would you want the government telling you who to marry? how many kids to have?

IntratecAB109mm: Then why should I want others telling me what I'll RP, who I'll RP it with, and when and where I'll RP it?

TheUnforgiven57: you're taking this argument into so many places it doesnt need to be to try to win it but it isnt working

IntratecAB109mm: It's a freaking choice, a matter of choice, sometimes I choose to lose, or win, sometimes I choose not to RP with the person. I'm not some loon with a problem with losing, I'm just a man with a problem being forced into anything, winning or losing, if I don't want to do it.

TheUnforgiven57: If Canada suddenly attacked the US tomorrow with all its 16,000 soldiers without just cause guess what we can't say, "Oh ookay we didnt authorize or talk about that so yeah its not gonna happen." NS isnt some realm that is not affected by reality here. i see you're trying to protect your story-line and your characters and thats cool cuz so i dont want to do that myself...but when its reasonable tough luck, be a man take it and fight back...dont whimper off behind an ignore...

in life guess what, you're forced into things all the time and you often dont have ANY control over them...therein this applies to this...

IntratecAB109mm: The RL and NS are not the same

TheUnforgiven57: 99% of NS goes on the basics of reality

IntratecAB109mm: the RL, people can do things, such as force themselves on you, but not legally, you don't have to tolerate it

IntratecAB109mm: if somebody tried to rape my mom, I'd shoot him,

TheUnforgiven57: when something defies reality it gets the ignore things

IntratecAB109mm: if somebody tries to force themselves on me in the NS World, I use the ignore gun

TheUnforgiven57: i got an idea

TheUnforgiven57: lets find a mod..ask them their opinion.

IntratecAB109mm: no, I don't want to trouble mods over something that isn't mod-related, this is an IC problem, mods are mainly for policing peoples against spamming, trolling, etc

TheUnforgiven57: simple question

IntratecAB109mm: this is a matter of personal choice, either way the mod rules, one of us would be unhappy

IntratecAB109mm: you know you'd never hear the end of my moaning, and I know I'd never hear the end of yours. That is just my being realistic about it

TheUnforgiven57: as am i

IntratecAB109mm: when a persons believes themself to be right, they don't let it quit

IntratecAB109mm: I believe myself to be right

TheUnforgiven57: and the 2 scariest words in the english language are "I believe"

IntratecAB109mm: What country are you from? USA?

TheUnforgiven57: Yes I am.

IntratecAB109mm: Born here?

TheUnforgiven57: Yes I was.

IntratecAB109mm: What state?

TheUnforgiven57: New York.

IntratecAB109mm: born there?

TheUnforgiven57: Yes

IntratecAB109mm: New York City?

TheUnforgiven57: on the border of

IntratecAB109mm: Hmmm, then this is pointless, you'd never understand individual choice, the idea of states rights, small gov't, individual responsibility, etc

TheUnforgiven57: Yes I do

IntratecAB109mm: and my arguments theories can be so easily applied to the other ideals

TheUnforgiven57: I'm for small government, states' rights, inidivudal choice

TheUnforgiven57: same with responsibility, which america lacks today

TheUnforgiven57: but that has no bearing on what we're discussing in
reference to NS

IntratecAB109mm: Out where I live, we don't like being told by any super government what to do, when to do it, or where to do it, I don't know how you folks back in New York handle it, with the feds breathing down your necks all the time, but out here, we like to be left to make our own choices

IntratecAB109mm: In NS, I like to be allowed to make choices

IntratecAB109mm: I've never forced others to RP with me

IntratecAB109mm: Indeed as I stated before, I've backed down when people flat-out said, "No, I don't want to RP that"

TheUnforgiven57: Yes and if he godmodded or did something beyond unreasonable I'd be with ya 100%

IntratecAB109mm: for whatever reason they didn't want to, I respected it

IntratecAB109mm: some people have been honest with me, "I don't want to RP that, I don't want to lose that piece of land" I respected them

IntratecAB109mm: I just ask people respect me

IntratecAB109mm: Respect is a two-way road, I give it, and I expect to get it back

TheUnforgiven57: nobody pushes around NY trust me, nobody.

TheUnforgiven57: with that aside

IntratecAB109mm: I have a bottle of Scotch sitting around, it won't drink itself, and I'd rather be drinking it then arguing with somebody who I totally disagree with, but respect your right to hold your own views

TheUnforgiven57: and you think i agree with you in any wya shape or form?

IntratecAB109mm: I want to make that clear to you, I totally respect your right to hold your own unique opinions, I just ask for that same respect back

IntratecAB109mm: Maybe we agree on a few things, I don't know you well enough to say for sure

TheUnforgiven57: i doubt it

TheUnforgiven57: except maybe the scotch thing

IntratecAB109mm: Well anyway, I'm going to go, I've had enough of a headache. And if you don't mind, I'll post this conversation on the thread in dispute so people can see the merits of both our arguments, and decide for themselves who is right.

IntratecAB109mm: Merry Christmas, take care, have a good night.

TheUnforgiven57: Go ahead but i'm sving it so dont try to alter it

TheUnforgiven57: night

IntratecAB109mm: Don't even suggest I'd alter it, that insults me

TheUnforgiven57: so ignore me

TheUnforgiven57: if you cant take an insult then i have a lot of pity on you...

IntratecAB109mm: Or I could just keep talking to you in an attempt to force you to reply to me, regardless of whether you want to reply or not, I could in essence, "force myself on you" into doing something you don't want to.
IntratecAB109mm: I can take an insult, just better be prepared when I dish one back out, but I'm a bit more mature than that.

TheUnforgiven57: and i ould keep replying to you and we could be doing this for hours on hours on hours

TheUnforgiven57: you see its a never-ending battle

IntratecAB109mm: Oh by the way, I did alter this, I blanked out your profanity.

TheUnforgiven57: thats fine

TheUnforgiven57: keep it pg for the kiddies

I ALSO play for story, but to do so effectively you have to assume the role of your national leaders. You cannot stay completely detached during every RP, or else it's not realistic.

As your nation's leaders, you have to desire to win. You have to lie, scheme, cheat (all IC, of course) to get your way and try to beat the other guy. If you don't do everything possible to get your way or achieve your goals, then you are not effective or realistic acting as your nation, and thus you are a bad RPer.
Realism > story, because realism always makes for a better story. By allowing unexpected variables to affect the story of your country, you not only make it more realistic (what RL leader had everything his way?), but you avoid cliche, so your RPs and stories that come out of RPs are more vibrant and alive.

DA, your argument essentially rules out any realism of any RP. Who cares if have 4 million state-of-the-art tanks is realistic, as long as it makes a good story, right? WRONG. Completely ignoring a well thought out and RPed invasion of your territory simply because you didn't know about it in advance is godmodding of the worst kind. You whine about Tyrandis RPing your people; but aren't you doing the same by saying his people never invaded your territory?

Your argument is as flawed and contradicting as it is illogical and just plain stupid. If I had my way you'd lose all your Earth II territory and be kicked out of NS altogether.

You are a very good RPer, but your philosophy on the subject is too far out in left field for anyone to take you seriously.

But you spoke of refugees and actions my people were taking, as though they were your own people.


My people are MINE, and nobody can RP their actions (unless they have my explicit permission, which you sir, did not) thus you are guilty of godmodding.

Ok, let's assume a hypothetical scenario:

Suppose there are two camps, Reds and Blues. The Reds are currently on a campaign of extermination against the Blues, and are succeeding in their genocides. The police (Your colonial authority) isn't doing anything, and the mass slaughter continues.

Suppose that you are a member of the Blues. You live in the center of your country, are surrounded by Reds, all of whom want to rape your wife, steal your valuables, and kill you.

To your north, some two blocks away, is a foreign land, controlled by another camp, the Greens. The Greens are a separate, independent group, and don't want anything to do with the war going on. However, if you get there, you can stay alive and away from the Reds.

The Greens are concerned. As more and more Blues try to escape to Green territory, the Greens fear the Reds following the Blues into Green territory and bringing with them their petty tribal war.

Since the police are still doing nothing, the Greens decide to act, and restore order by any means necessary.

Now, suppose the Reds are the Ovimbundu, the Blues the Bakongo, and the Greens the Tyrandisans. Obviously, there would be at least a FEW Bakongo heading for the DRC. That is, unless, every one of your citizens, DA, is mentally handicapped.

Ok, let's assume a hypothetical scenario:

Suppose there are two camps, Reds and Blues. The Reds are currently on a campaign of extermination against the Blues, and are succeeding in their genocides. The police (Your colonial authority) isn't doing anything, and the mass slaughter continues.

Suppose that you are a member of the Blues. You live in the center of your country, are surrounded by Reds, all of whom want to rape your wife, steal your valuables, and kill you.

To your north, some two blocks away, is a foreign land, controlled by another camp, the Greens. The Greens are a separate, independent group, and don't want anything to do with the war going on. However, if you get there, you can stay alive and away from the Reds.

The Greens are concerned. As more and more Blues try to escape to Green territory, the Greens fear the Reds following the Blues into Green territory and bringing with them their petty tribal war.

Since the police are still doing nothing, the Greens decide to act, and restore order by any means necessary.

Now, suppose the Reds are the Ovimbundu, the Blues the Bakongo, and the Greens the Tyrandisans. Obviously, there would be at least a FEW Bakongo heading for the DRC. That is, unless, every one of your citizens, DA, is mentally handicapped.


Yes, but the Commonwealth gov't did setup "Safe-zones" for Bakongo to flee to, and John Tallmadge of ME had declared he was soon to bring in parachute divisions to serve as peace-keepers since Donald Stahlecker of Angola was doing nothing to help. The Bakongo would likely stay in the safe-zones or even in their villages, anxiously awaiting the ME forces (which, by the way, are on their way)

Yes, but the Commonwealth gov't did setup "Safe-zones" for Bakongo to flee to, and John Tallmadge of ME had declared he was soon to bring in parachute divisions to serve as peace-keepers since Donald Stahlecker of Angola was doing nothing to help. The Bakongo would likely stay in the safe-zones or even in their villages, anxiously awaiting the ME forces (which, by the way, are on their way)

Let's look at Rwanda, for comparison, ok?

As the Hutus were rampaging through Tutsi territory, several thousand Tutsis fled to the neighboring nations, seeking sanctuary. Yes, there were 'safe-zones' that the Hutus had promised that they would respect, like churches and such, but they were all lies. The safe-zones became a massive trap, where thousands of guillible Tutsis met their death.

The Tutsis that stayed put in their villages were massacred, and the news of their fates spread like wildfire. Eventually, they fled the country for sanctuary in foreign countries.

Again, I'm just saying that a few refugees would have tried to go for the DRC. Not even a few hundred, just a handful. However, the DRC colonial authority thought that this IC situation merited action, and so the DRC's army was mobilized.

Let's look at Rwanda, for comparison, ok?

As the Hutus were rampaging through Tutsi territory, several thousand Tutsis fled to the neighboring nations, seeking sanctuary. Yes, there were 'safe-zones' that the Hutus had promised that they would respect, like churches and such, but they were all lies. The safe-zones became a massive trap, where thousands of guillible Tutsis met their death.

The Tutsis that stayed put in their villages were massacred, and the news of their fates spread like wildfire. Eventually, they fled the country for sanctuary in foreign countries.

Again, I'm just saying that a few refugees would have tried to go for the DRC. Not even a few hundred, just a handful. However, the DRC colonial authority thought that this IC situation merited action, and so the DRC's army was mobilized.


I think you don't like me OOC (this has pretty much been established in our various conversations, at least I believe you don't like me) and thus you are using the most miniscule and pathetic reasons you can (not even reasons that affect you) to cause me IC grief for OOC reasons.

I think you don't like me OOC (this has pretty much been established in our various conversations, at least I believe you don't like me) and thus you are using the most miniscule and pathetic reasons you can (not even reasons that affect you) to cause me IC grief for OOC reasons.

Yes, a civil war that is raging out of control to my southern border and could conceivably cause a refugee situation in my country doesn't affect me. :rolleyes:

Yes, a civil war that is raging out of control to my southern border and could conceivably cause a refugee situation in my country doesn't affect me. :rolleyes:


Minor tribal skirmishes and a few massacres, which can all be brought under control as soon as the Commonwealth gov't acts, or as soon as the Federal gov't steps in. Perhaps you could have tried lobbying them to act first, eh?

To DA, NS has no correlation to RL. It's pointless as you can see above. His rules trump all of NS rules and his all mighty himself is the God incarnate of Earth II and NS.

Read the RP stickies again, you're so far off with regards to IC and OOC, it's not funny. By the way, for your childish moaning, welcome to my ignore list.
DA, I dont want to do this, because I would like your Nation to exist in my RP world, because you're like an anti-Praetonia in many ways, but Im sorry. You're ignored for incessant n00bishness with regards to ignores. If you accept this thread then I will unignore you, but I dont see that happening.

I ALSO play for story, but to do so effectively you have to assume the role of your national leaders. You cannot stay completely detached during every RP, or else it's not realistic.

As your nation's leaders, you have to desire to win. You have to lie, scheme, cheat (all IC, of course) to get your way and try to beat the other guy. If you don't do everything possible to get your way or achieve your goals, then you are not effective or realistic acting as your nation, and thus you are a bad RPer.
Realism > story, because realism always makes for a better story. By allowing unexpected variables to affect the story of your country, you not only make it more realistic (what RL leader had everything his way?), but you avoid cliche, so your RPs and stories that come out of RPs are more vibrant and alive.

DA, your argument essentially rules out any realism of any RP. Who cares if have 4 million state-of-the-art tanks is realistic, as long as it makes a good story, right? WRONG. Completely ignoring a well thought out and RPed invasion of your territory simply because you didn't know about it in advance is godmodding of the worst kind. You whine about Tyrandis RPing your people; but aren't you doing the same by saying his people never invaded your territory?

Your argument is as flawed and contradicting as it is illogical and just plain stupid. If I had my way you'd lose all your Earth II territory and be kicked out of NS altogether.

You are a very good RPer, but your philosophy on the subject is too far out in left field for anyone to take you seriously.

Wow, thats a surprisingly good, well thought out argument.

Wow, thats a surprisingly good, well thought out argument.
Thank you.
Which reminds me, you haven't replied to my post, DA.

DA, don't get us wrong. We all (I think) believe that you are a very good RPer. The RPs that you make are interesting and believable. I think that you are good enough even to achieve AMF's level of respect on these forums.

The only reason that you don't is because of what you're arguing right now; you insist on ignoring everyone who doesn't agree with your end-all, be-all rules, which is completely ridiculous. Instead of helping you out, it's holding you back.

It's not too late to reconsider. Get rid of your 'Ignore List' and join the ranks of the realistic RPers, and you'll see your level of respect rise drastically. Actually ICly respond to attacks against you, whether for a reason or none at all, as AMF does. If you really are a good RPer (you are), then you'll survive these unexpected plot twists and the story you make will be incomparably better. Please, we're begging, just think about this, consider what you're saying. It's not too late to turn around.

My ignore list is NOT a MILE long either, here it is, in it's near entirety (There are some people not on the list, because I like to read their RPs, but I ignore them IC-wise for various reasons... This list is probably 1/2 of the people I ignore)


Adyndril
Alutia
Axis Nova
British Morocco
Canad a
Celack
Chellis
Communist Rule
Cularia
DemonLordEnigma
Der Fuhrer Dyszel
DontPissUsOff
East Coast Federation
Hamptonshire
Hataria
Hrstrovokia
IDF
Jonothana
Leefleslovakiaistan
Mahanoy
Morathania
Parlim
Roman Republic
Ronius Vigilantes
Sarzonia
SovietRepublicofRussia
Tennesee Fans
The European State
The Phoenix Milita
The Vorta Hadar
Unified Sith
Vastiva
Yerffej

OOC: SO Happy I'm on that list. I don't have to put up with any of his childish sh*t anymore. Anywho, I also find it hilarious that you actually have a list........

Furtherfurthermore......Good arguments here. No one is flaming you CM. Frankly, you should be on your heels by now. Very good points these men (women?) make.

May I ask why DA IGNORES me?
Is it because I can rp without needing to spend all the time I have writing it?
Is it because I'm adaptable and can deal with unforseen consequences?
Is it because he's jelous of me?

Is it because I'm stronger than him?
Is it because I've actually read the new testament and can easily destroy his psuedo-religous bull-shit?
Is it because I have spoken up against his idiotic IC actions?
Is it because I'm more liked?
Is it because I'm a better roleplayer?
Is it because of some O.C.C.things Iv'e said in general?


The world will never know

May I ask why DA IGNORES me?
Is it because I can rp without needing to spend all the time I have writing it?
Is it because I'm adaptable and can deal with unforseen consequences?
Is it because he's jelous of me?

Is it because I'm stronger than him?
Is it because I've actually read the new testament and can easily destroy his psuedo-religous bull-shit?
Is it because I have spoken up against his idiotic IC actions?
Is it because I'm more liked?
Is it because I'm a better roleplayer?
Is it because of some O.C.C.things Iv'e said in general?


The world will never know

Therein the reason to start a giant ignore list of DA.

Anybody involved in the NATO blockade against me, which was done for OOC reasons, was ticked onto my ignore list.

My involvement in the blockade was not for o.o.c. reasons despite what you claim. My government sees you as a dangerous threat with a mad-man at the helm and if we can limit your power then we will.

But if you claim that a perfectly valid I.C. reason is an O.O.C. reason so you can IGNORE me because you don't want to lose, that's okay. It's only bad rping.

My involvement in the blockade was not for o.o.c. reasons despite what you claim. My government sees you as a dangerous threat with a mad-man at the helm and if we can limit your power then we will.

But if you claim that a perfectly valid I.C. reason is an O.O.C. reason so you can IGNORE me because you don't want to lose, that's okay. It's only bad rping.


My government (well the secret societies that are the real power behind my gov't, see Sevaris and The Canadian Union as a major threat to the NMWO, but Sevaris declared that my opinion of him being a threat, isn't a legitimate IC reason to invade him, and thus I respected that. If opinions were valid IC reasons for war (I have many opinions as to who needs invaded) if that was the case, there'd be a lot of wars. But I try to respect the rights of others to declare what they think to be good and bad reasons for wars, good being IC, bad being OOC.

Minor tribal skirmishes and a few massacres, which can all be brought under control as soon as the Commonwealth gov't acts, or as soon as the Federal gov't steps in. Perhaps you could have tried lobbying them to act first, eh?

Tyrandis is a highly impatient/distrustful state. ICly, we decided that even with pressure from the north, the DA colonial govt wouldn't do anything, so we took things into our own hands. It's just an extension of the overall Tyrandisan civilian character into the world stage. Let's put it this way, during diplomatic talks, we curse, scream, and act pretty uncivilized.

Again, I still believe I had a perfectly good IC reason for my invasion.

Tyrandis is a highly impatient/distrustful state. ICly, we decided that even with pressure from the north, the DA colonial govt wouldn't do anything, so we took things into our own hands. It's just an extension of the overall Tyrandisan civilian character into the world stage. Let's put it this way, during diplomatic talks, we curse, scream, and act pretty uncivilized.

Again, I still believe I had a perfectly good IC reason for my invasion.



I would ask that you at least attempt diplomatic talks before going all mad and rushing into combat on very, very, shaky IC reasons, if the reasons are indeed IC, which I am not even leaning towards believing that they are. I think they are likely OOC reasons, but I'd be willing to hear you out and listen to your arguments on MSN later, and the others involved in the Angolan RP should be there since if you get involved, it would concern them as well.

Government opinions is the reasons for most wars. Some examples
Boer war: The British government's opinion was that south africa was resource rich and they invaded.
War of 1812: The British government thought the U.S. ships harbouring deserting seamen from British ships. They stopped and boarded teh ships, effectivly having a blockade imposed on them
WWII: Hilter(Whom you seem intent to replicate) decided, as the head of the government of Germany, that he wanted to invade a whole bunch of countries surrounding him. Britan, and theother allies, except for US, their governments decided to stop him after poland was invaded.

So your logic fails, and Sevaris is now proven to be as horrible as an rper as you. Your invasion was legal and IC.

Am I on your enhanced ignore list?

I'd be willing to discuss matters with you DA concerning this conflict, because my government is considering sending peacekeepers to the region.

Tag

DA, you idiot, this is the stupidest thing you have posted yet. You haven't listened to a word we've said, have you?

Thanks for proving that you're one of the worst things to happen to NS RPing in a long, long while.



You're still spamming somebody's thread you know. Tyrandis and I are going to talk with the other 2 Angola RPers on MSN later and work something out. Can't you read earlier posts?

You forgot to add me onto your ignore list. We agreed to ignore each other remember?

You forgot to add me onto your ignore list. We agreed to ignore each other remember?



Yeah, you're on my "unwritten list" people who I occasionally read stuff from or occasionally argue with, etc, don't necessarily make my "written list".