NationStates Jolt Archive

A wide array of design charts lay spread on the long desk in the design center of the State Armories, located in Calcutta, West Bengal.

Designs for tanks, missiles, aircraft, submarines and ships are presented to the resident design bureau, and its members, generally somewhat depressed middle-aged engineering school grads, make quick corrections and scribbles on the blueprints.

They await the arrival of the Beth Gellert design engineers, alongside which they will begin the construction of a new generation of defense products for Hindustan and Beth Gellert, the two dominant nations of the Indian Subcontinent.

The designs currently waiting for approval are:

1. A multirole corvette similar to the Russian Gepard class vessel.

2. The Arjun Mk. 2 main battle tank, or ICT (Indian Common Tank).

3. FRA. 5 (LRR designation) light fighter; designed to replace MiG-21bis in Hindustani service, comparable (on paper) to the F-16 or J-10.

4. AS. 117 (LRR designation) anti-ship missile; to replace Sea Eagle missile specifically, range approaching or greater than 250 km.

5. AT. 43 (LRR designation) anti-tank missile; to replace Konkurs and Metys systems, range approaching or in excess of 9 kilometers, resistant to jamming

The Soviet People’s Navy was a proud establishment with something approaching a thousand hulls at its service, scientific, training, disaster relief, and other such vessels included.

Still, the Commonwealth Fighting Coast Guard had seen better days. It was simply the old Principality’s coast guard re-named and untouched since the revolution, which had sunk most of its assets. Once furnished with Quinntonian* gun boats and British patrol craft, the little force had fallen into disrepair as the Igovians concentrated on building-up their heavy assets from trimaran fleet carriers and ballistic missile submarines to combat stores ships and sixty-thousand tonne hospital ships. The smallest warships being produced today were the above four-thousand tonne Batch 3 Gauntlet and Bodkin frigates and the eleven or twelve hundred tonne Hound Class D/E submarines that have been widely exported (and responsible for the sinking of an LRR** vessel off the southern tip of Korea).

There was a recognised lack of light patrol boats and even smaller vessels such as may be employed for fisheries protection against violation by the little states of Goa and Pondicherry, not to mention Nicobarese commercial trawlers.

It was not yet clear whether the Navy would be able to work with LRR counterparts in developing and producing such vessels, but there certainly existed some common ground and a potential opportunity.

The Admiralty’s review board on the matter, headed by comrade Admiral Lucy Han-James of the CFCG, concluded that a new vessel was required. The very broad first specifications required the ship to be, “significantly less than four thousand tonnes in displacement” for it to, “display cost effectiveness in operation and maintenance”, to be capable of, “speeds of at least thirty knots in either sustained operation or efficient sprinting” and for it to possess, “some ability in combating threats from surface, sub-surface, and sky”. Of course it had to share some commonality in systems with other service items, but the required degree was not initially specified, perhaps due to the broad nature of other requirements.

Beth Gellert was more than happy with its latest ATGW, the Totem-3 family, and with its light fighter, NT-5 Cardinal. Its forces were well served for anti-ship weapons, too. They presently deployed the 130km range Qian Wei ASM, a multi-platform missile developed in Dra-pol and a third state and using agility to defeat enemy defences, and the deadly but little-seen Charioteer. This second, highly expensive missile had a 260km range and to penetrate defences relied primarily upon its incredible speed in the attack run. Charioteer armed Igovian nuclear attack submarines and hunter frigates, and there was no question of replacing it. The issue of possible export was still unclear, as the CPRD’s approach had been turned-down at the eleventh hour.

Still, the possibility of joint patrol boat/corvette development remained, and there would surely be more co-operation in future. Civilian enthusiasts were still trying to convince friends in Hindustan to lobby their government for conversion of the national rail network to wide-gauge as used in The Commonwealth, saying that it was safer more comfortable. While they were busy being told where to get off over prohibitive expense, others spoke of the much wider issue of the basic nature of trade and commerce. Beth Gellert did not widely deal in consumer or other finished goods, having a purely communist economy, and the fairly sudden change to this system during the on-going round of Igovian reforms must surely have hit the neighbouring state. If Hindustan exported machined goods to North America and Europe, it certainly could no longer export them to BG, which wanted only raw materials not common in the Commonwealth, or natural produce not grown there.

---------
OOC:

*They were American boats, but I assume that Quinntonia would have been just as willing to sell gunboats to the nominally Christian, capitalist democracy that preceded the Commonwealth.

**I think it was an LRR vessel... maybe it was a ROK vessel and the LRR responded, I forget.

I’d rather just add OOC that BG’s MT-4 Hathi (Elephant) main battle tank is basically our Arjun, in as much as that I’ve used its image to represent the tank. Its capabilities are far beyond that of the Arjun, of course (or indeed of any other realistic modern-tech tank I’ve encountered). We actually put a great deal into proofing it to long-range ATGWs at a time when there was a strong lobby to deploy forces to Korea, and LRR was still there. Heh. How things change.



(Sorry, my PC keeps messing up and this message is just getting more and more disjointed as I get more irritated. I’m off to bed before I go further off track.)

The State Armories are admittedly disappointed at the lack of interest for the tank, missile, and aircraft projects, which will doubtless continue under domestic supervision.

However, the naval engineering branch of the State Armories gets right to work, and, very quickly, they come up with a ship of approximately 1,800 tons displacement.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/fleet/russian/surface/gepard-001.jpg

Powered by a hybrid diesel/electric powerplant, the ship, who's class has been designated Bengal by the LRRN, should have an almost unlimited cruise range, although at a very very slow speed. A more real cruise range (speed 28 knots) might be 8,500 nautical miles. The vessel's maximum speed is expected to be around 34 knots.

A good deal of composite materials are expected to be used in the vessel's construction, which will reduce its veunerability to mines greatly and reduce its signature on active sonar and radar.

Space for an uncovered helipad is alotted on the stern, designed to fit the Merlin, but which will probably accomodate Dhruv helicopters in LRR service.

It is left to Beth Gellert to come up with weapons systems, but it is expected that any Hindustani variant will carry three six-barrelled 30mm CIWS guns, more capable copies of the Ak-630, as well as eight AS. 117 missiles at least.

Meanwhile, flight testing of the prototype FA. 5 continues, and the first flights with full weapons loadings are made.

http://go.supereva.it/aviation/HAL%20LCA_18_800.jpg

The FA. 5 is designed to carry the Sea Eagle ASM, Kh-31P2 anti-radar missile, Kh-29 missile, Matra family LGBs, AA-12 AAMs, AA-11 AAMs, AA-10 AAMs, and a variety of freefall bombs.

The AS. 117 comes along nicely as well, considering that it is really only a Sea Eagle with a larger engine.

The AT. 43 also makes headway, and soon test firings are being made of a prototype missile. Two variants of the AT. 43 will likely be deployed; one, the A variant, will be easy to produce and simple to operate, with a respectable range of nine kilometers. This A variant will be deployed on the new APC-3 armored fighting vehicles and with infantry units (who will carry the man-portable A1 variant). The biggest disadvantage to the missile's simplicity is its veunerability to jamming. In jammed environments, tests have shown the A's accuracy to drop below 30 percent, a shortcoming which will hopefully be solved by the wide distribution of the missile.

The B variant will have a longer range, over ten kilometers, and will primarily be mounted on helicopters and specialized carrier vehicles. The B missile and launcher are expected to be more than twice as expensive as the A variants, but the B missile is much more resistant to jamming, with an accuracy of around 65% in a jammed environment.

The Arjun Mk. 2, however, has largely fallen by the wayside.

OOC:
I take it neither of you actually deploy the Mirage 2000-5s (or newer-9s) that RL india uses?

i am mainly asking as Strathdonia really wants some M2ks (and any surplus jaguars) but the chances of getting any from France seem doubtful and none else uses enough for a 2nd hand buy to be worthwhile.

If you don't its cool and Strathdonia might be interested in making a small commitment to the FA.5 program while buying surplus jaguars from TBF or anyone else and possibly renting Tornados as a stop gap measure.

oh and any surplus sea eagles would find a good home in Strathdonia...

OOC:
I take it neither of you actually deploy the Mirage 2000-5s (or newer-9s) that RL india uses?

i am mainly asking as Strathdonia really wants some M2ks (and any surplus jaguars) but the chances of getting any from France seem doubtful and none else uses enough for a 2nd hand buy to be worthwhile.

If you don't its cool and Strathdonia might be interested in making a small commitment to the FA.5 program while buying surplus jaguars from TBF or anyone else and possibly renting Tornados as a stop gap measure.

oh and any surplus sea eagles would find a good home in Strathdonia...

OCC: Well, I would imagine that a large portion of the Mirage 2000 airframes that I use are still servicable, considering that the French republic was only overthrown a short while ago.

But since the possibility of obtaining spare parts is very low, considering LRR has made some very blatant threats against France and its Ukrainian allies, the state armories would probably be glad to sell them off.

Since the Jaguar is unlikely to be withdrawn from service for another decade at least, and the armories are even planning a fighter version to supplement the Su-30MKI and MiG-29 should spare parts become a problem.

But yes, any stake in the FA. 5 program would be helpful. You are in the modern world, yes? As long as you aren't an LRR-blacklisted regime, you're welcome to place advance orders.

Beth Gellert uses almost entirely domestically designed and produced weapons. Exceptions are the Drapoel/3rd Party Qian Wei anti-shipping missile, Gazelle and Merlin helicopters (which we plan to replace in coming years- BG's helicopter industry is quite young) and arguably the 'Super Helix' which is a domestic machine based on the Russian original. Oh, and domestic variants of the Land Rover family built originally under licences acquired during the Principality.

Beddgelen interest in the Bengal class vessel is fairly high, the propulsion being viewed as a departure from the boosted gas turbines that give cruise speeds rather below the figures indicated by the LRRN for their design.

Igovian weapons systems would include the domestic 30mm BG-CIWIS provided that sufficient space may be found close to the waterline, which, though it may prevent multiple systems on such a small vessel from engaging the same target, is the preferred Beddgelen deployment. Qian Wei ASMs would be the probable choice in that field, and air defence may be provided by Loviatar-S if space can be found for a small VLS system and radar components.

(and again, I'm just being distracted too much to get anywhere with this... argh)

OOC-You can consider that all arms deals that the USA is invloved in, we are as well. More or less.
WWJD
Amen.

OCC: Well, I would imagine that a large portion of the Mirage 2000 airframes that I use are still servicable, considering that the French republic was only overthrown a short while ago.

But since the possibility of obtaining spare parts is very low, considering LRR has made some very blatant threats against France and its Ukrainian allies, the state armories would probably be glad to sell them off.

Since the Jaguar is unlikely to be withdrawn from service for another decade at least, and the armories are even planning a fighter version to supplement the Su-30MKI and MiG-29 should spare parts become a problem.

But yes, any stake in the FA. 5 program would be helpful. You are in the modern world, yes? As long as you aren't an LRR-blacklisted regime, you're welcome to place advance orders.


OOC: i'm not entirely sure what the exact situation is reguarding myself and the others from SSA so just consider this intial wool gathering for the moment.

Ex- indian Mirage 2000s woudl be very welcome and finally give us soemthign ebtter than our fighter modified Jaguars (basically a fluffed up version with either an APG-66 or the sea harrier FA-2 radar and the ability to launch MICA RFs, i don't cosndier the MICA to be an issue considering TBF uses them already and i really don't see the various share holders in MBDA (including BAE) being happy with the french nobility grabbing a large part of the company the same also goes for Thales, but airbus is a bigger mess. just my take on the issue, Elkazor may see it rahter differently).


To be hoenst if we can get our hands on the Mirages we really don't need the FA.5 but might invest some funds as a possible repalcement for our Hawk 200 and jaguar squadrons.

We have the perfect vessel for your corvette requirement:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=359751

Just to show you what your missing! ;)

Beth Gellert uses almost entirely domestically designed and produced weapons. Exceptions are the Drapoel/3rd Party Qian Wei anti-shipping missile, Gazelle and Merlin helicopters (which we plan to replace in coming years- BG's helicopter industry is quite young) and arguably the 'Super Helix' which is a domestic machine based on the Russian original. Oh, and domestic variants of the Land Rover family built originally under licences acquired during the Principality.

Beddgelen interest in the Bengal class vessel is fairly high, the propulsion being viewed as a departure from the boosted gas turbines that give cruise speeds rather below the figures indicated by the LRRN for their design.

Igovian weapons systems would include the domestic 30mm BG-CIWIS provided that sufficient space may be found close to the waterline, which, though it may prevent multiple systems on such a small vessel from engaging the same target, is the preferred Beddgelen deployment. Qian Wei ASMs would be the probable choice in that field, and air defence may be provided by Loviatar-S if space can be found for a small VLS system and radar components.

(and again, I'm just being distracted too much to get anywhere with this... argh)

With the Bedgellen systems chosen, the state armories immediately get to work on a first vessel, along with the BG naval engineers. While the first priority is obviously to finish the hull and install the propulsion systems, it is imperative that engineers familiar with the intended weapons systems be on-hand to make sure that the LRRN engineers have alotted sufficent space.

The LRRN will probably use its own sensors systems, but the BG CIWS system does interest the armories. However, the traditional Type 5 anti-missile gun system, which looks similar to the Ak-630, except with a radar dish, will likely be installed for the sake of convenience.

The government expresses interest in purchasing Lovitar-S systems, or the production rights to the Lovitar-S, considering that the LRRN currently operates no VLS systems and would very much like some.

But anyway, construction is begun on the hull of the Bengal/(BG class name) multirole corvette at Calcutta's state-of-the-art shipyard facilities, modeled after the Hyundai yards in Korea.



Meanwhile, the papers for the transfer of Mirage 2000s to Strathdonia are signed up and put in order. The government is fairly glad to be rid of them, even if it does reduce the airforce's precision-attack capability.

15 million USD is put out as a starting price for the aircraft, most of which had never seen combat and are in very good maintainance condition, owing to well-trained ground crews, even in lieu of the fact that paved strips constitute less than half of all LRRAF fighter facilities. The government is willing to pay much less for the aircraft, considering that unless they are got rid of now they will become someone's garden ornaments, a property of countless Gnats, Hunters, and Mysteres.

The Arjun Mk. 2 program picks up speed again, but is mostly concentrated with the addition of an active defense system and the modification of the LAHAT ATGMs.


The first test flights of the fighter-modified jaguars also take place, and the new aircraft are essentially re-engined variants of the original. The airframe overall is larger, with conformal fuel tanks being added. The wing hardpoints are modified to facilitate the carrying of fighter-class AAMs like the AA-12 and AA-11, and the cannon is replaced with a faster-firing 27mm weapon more suited for attacking other fighters. A new radar is also fitted, similar to the Eriksson PS-05 fitted to the Gripen.

The new Jaguar, designated Jaguar F, can just barely exceed mach 2 without a centerline tank or above-wing AAMs, but with a normal combat load would probably operate at a maximum speed of mach 1.6. While much slower than most other fighter aircraft, the Jaguar F is highly manouverable and has nigh-unsurpassed STOL and rough-field performance.

Minor APC integration explored

As part of the on-going armed forces review being carried out in the ISCBG, other capability gaps continue to be highlighted. One that immediately brought the Commonwealth’s northern neighbour to mind was an army requirement for a high capacity armoured personnel carrier.

Beddgelen infantry transport, on land, presently depends upon vulnerable 6x6 soft-skin trucks and land cruisers, and Infantry Combat Vehicles with limited capacity and cost-intensive weapons and protection systems.

The Igovian Soviet Army, then, is in immediate need of, basically, an armoured infantry bus able to keep pace with an armoured advance and to offer basic protection to infantrymen transported. The requirement is for a mobile armoured vehicle able to transport a minimum of eight fully equipped troops and to resist heavy machinegun fire and shell fragments while possessing defensive firepower.
Defensive firepower is probably sufficiently represented by a Drosgl heavy machinegun, while the reference to mobility expects reliable off-road transit and some true amphibious provision.

The programme does not call for an infantry combat vehicle (though a separate programme may consider replacement of the CICV-2 family) intended to engage with the enemy, and rates reliability and cost effectiveness as highly significant.

There is no reason why such a basic vehicle should not be produced entirely within the confines of Igovian industry, but diplomats working in LRR have been alerted to make the Commonwealth’s neighbour aware of the programme. It appears that Portimeirion is keen to learn any ‘tricks of the trade’ that may have been learned by its neighbour, believed to have a longer tradition with such aspects of light armour, and more than that is even keen to explore the possibility of some parts or systems commonality in what are likely to be widely produced and deployed vehicles.

Comrade General Kivi Eikki Paatelainen has been quoted as saying, “It makes sense that we should foster a tradition of camaraderie between the two principle military forces of the sub-continent... a precedent for compatibility in the field of common, relatively low-tech systems such as personnel carriers may serve both parties well in future deployments... we should at least explore the possibility of incorporating parts or whole systems that would be at home on either side of the well-tempered border.”

The Igovian Soviet Army will probably not be mounting ATGWs aboard its APCs as is believed to be the case across the border, as commanders are not keen to encourage prime infantry movers such as these to join battle directly. Totem 3T ATGM is sure to be included on any replacement for the CICV-2 family of combat vehicles. The ICVs will also continue to serve in variant roles from mortar counter-battery radar to armoured recovery vehicle, meaning that the new APC will not be bound-over to incorporate versatility of that degree.

Order limited in first light warship collaboration

It now seems likely that only a few of the 1,800t vessels will be acquired by the SPN, possibly to serve the Parmiss Flotilla and to head squadrons of smaller fighting coast guard corvettes.

This information in itself seems to have opened a new project, this time to replace the tiny hydrofoil gunboats that served the Principality and have since become unserviceable. This would yield boats of not more than a few hundred tonnes, with certainly rather less than a third of the displacement of the Bengal class.

On-going commitment to the former project is confirmed, though, by delivery to LRR of example components of Loviatar-S vertical-launch surface-to-air missile systems. Aboard 4,200+ tonne Beddgelen Gauntlet Class frigates, two eight-cell VLS systems augment the larger Red Sky air defence missiles, and operate under the command of Citadel-S radar.
Mounting Citadel-S aboard a little vessel such as the co-operative venture in hand would be quite wasteful, so it seems more than fortunate that Loviatar was originally designed for compatibility with two quite different search and command radar packages. The second, already mounted aboard the Gull Flag Class artillery ships, combines DRAB-20 search radar and BG-Falcon-Scavenger fire-control radar in a rather more compact and cost-effective fashion.

Loviatar itself is actually a distant relative of AFRISAM and its LS-8 missile- the pre-recession product of the now poverty-stricken United African Republic of Lusaka, and the word Scavenger is also applied to that system’s fire-control. The Beddgelen system is, of course, rather more advanced. DRAB-20 search radar has a 60km+ range and boasts 36 targets traceable. BG-Falcon-Scavenger can guide up to eight missiles against four simultaneous targets.
The missile at the system’s heart has a range of around 25 to 30km and carries a 27kg warhead at speeds up to Mach 4.5. Guidance is assisted by microprocessor intelligent module technology, and with frequency agility technology is able to efficiently cut-through jamming. The weapon can fly from wave-top height to deal with sea-skimming missiles, and up to a ceiling of about 12,500m.

The SPN has not yet been able to reach quorum on the main gun mounting for Igovian ships of the type. Some expect the 152mm guns mounted by Bodkin frigates and other vessels, while others, calling this too large for a smaller hull, suggest that the 76mm guns these replaced be brought out of storage, which seems likely. A third lobby doesn’t believe that a main gun is needed, pointing to the significantly better than 5km range of BG-CIWIS.

Beddgelen envoys are also busy inquiring into the LRR design’s torpedo armament, or lack of same, and considering the possibility of either Type-1B MkII 517mm heavy torpedoes or Type 3-B MkII 305mm light torpedoes.

The Strathdonian government are delighted to finally have a chance to aquire the much anticipated Mirage-2000, while the examples concerned are not the latest versions of this impressive aircraft they are still a major step forward for the SADF.

The Govenrment hereby makes a formal offer on the 48 Mirage 2000Hs/H5s, and 7 2000THs (india has bought 52 single seater but has lost 4 of them).

The $8.25billion is indeed a major drain on the defense budget and has caused the army's much needed tank repalcement program to suffer a futher time slip of 3 years but the MoD belives that the costs involved can be met without too much pain else where bar the final withdrawl from service of the Jaguar fleet.

Closed RP.
The Quinntonian government expresses their dismay at the fact that their close friends, the LRR are cooperating with Communist anti-democratics like Beth Gellert. Though BG is a benevolent Marxist tyrannical state, that still makes it tryannical.
Also, a question is posed to LRR, do you support Indian Unification as much as you support Korean unification?
WWJD
Amen.

The Beddgelen ambassador to Quinntonia was not long before being authorised to tender an official protest following the slanderous comments directed against The Igovian Soviet Commonwealth.

Demanding a formal apology for unwarranted and unjustified criticism of the Commonwealth and the unrivalled democratisation and openness of its political system, the communiqué also expected from the Quinntonian government a promise to refrain from interfering in the affairs of free peoples.

At home, opinion was divided on the matter. Many comrades advocated more severe action, withdrawing diplomats and acting to restrict Quinntonian transit through areas of Beddgelen influence, and others were at a loss to explain why anybody cared what the Quinntonians said. They were just envious of the heights to which the more rapidly expanding and already larger Igovian economy had reached, and bitter because the Beddgelen counterweight to their self-important crusading was proving a success. “Let them speak division, they will be left alone!” Said one comrade speaking at her Local Senate.

Comrades at work and rest idly discuss the bizarre logic of a backward dictatorship that would allow it to mix benevolence with tyranny and their useless popular expression with India’s popular rule.

“Well! ‘Argue as much as you like and about whatever you like, but obey’, that’s how democracy runs in the Americas, you know. We as free people shall have to put up with this until they cast-off their comfort blankets and idols.” Said one old man to his lady friend as they sat.
“So it’s like their American rugby?” She suggested.
“Aye, football? I suppose so. We can’t play proper games with them until they take-off their safety equipment.” The man chuckled.

Later talk would turn to the question of when an independent India was ever supposed to have existed as a unified state such as Korea had been before invasion by Japan and the west.

The Strathdonian government are delighted to finally have a chance to aquire the much anticipated Mirage-2000, while the examples concerned are not the latest versions of this impressive aircraft they are still a major step forward for the SADF.

The Govenrment hereby makes a formal offer on the 48 Mirage 2000Hs/H5s, and 7 2000THs (india has bought 52 single seater but has lost 4 of them).

The $8.25billion is indeed a major drain on the defense budget and has caused the army's much needed tank repalcement program to suffer a futher time slip of 3 years but the MoD belives that the costs involved can be met without too much pain else where bar the final withdrawl from service of the Jaguar fleet.

The Mirage 2000 shipment is authorized for Strathdonia, and the first airframes are 'reduced' (partially disassembled) and packed into shipping crates for the trip.

The state armories prepare for construction of several more Jaguars to replace the Mirages. Currently, it is expected that the primary production batch of FA. 5s will consist of about 100 aircraft, bringing the total fighter inventory, when the remaining MiG-21 Bisons, MiG-29s, and handful of Su-30MKIs are counted, to about 220 aircraft, with around 300 primarily Jaguar series attack aircraft operational, and 50 fighter variants expected to enter service.

A final tally of FA. 5s is expected to amount to 150 airframes once all the MiG-29s, a significant portion of the MiG-21s, and all the Mirages are replaced.


Bedgellen inquiries into APCs lead to displays of the APC-3 vehicle, a relatively new multirole 'armored carrier,' as the Hindustani designation goes, based loosely on the Alvis/Hagglunds SEP technology demonstrator, which some of the state armory's vehicle constructors had a chance to see during a trip to Sweden.

The APC-3 (very little LRR equipment carries a unique name, considering the military has never been proud of itself, and claiming some pretentious fierce-sounding name is considered silly) has a traditional hybrid powerplant. This greatly decreases its infra-red signature when running on the electric motors, and greatly increases its overall fuel efficency. The electric motors also offer excellent torque, and this coupled with the vehicle's relatively light weight make it highly mobile, although such carriers are generally laden with armements and applique armor in LRR service. The vehicle features a wedge hull to deflect the blast of anti-tank mines, a quality that proved invaluable during peacekeeping operations on Sulawesi Island.

The APC-3 is designed to carry a traditional Hindustani infantry squad of ten, plus a crew of two or three. IFV variants, often equipped with 73mm cannon or 30mm BMP-2 turrets, generally carry a crew of three or four with an infantry compliment of seven or eight.

While LRRA basic APC variants are usually relatively heavily armored, and armed with weapons capable of easily destroying main battle tanks, like the new AT. 43 and the older AT. 39, a missile with a range of around 7 kilometers, although this missile is almost entirely withdrawn from service (provided they are not protected by modern self-defense systems, in which case an APC platoon would have to rely on numbers and range to hopefully launch enough missiles to ensure at least some hits), as well as 12.7 or 14.5mm machine guns, and engineering variants are known as some of the toughest vehicles currently operating anywhere, the armories can easily crank out basic infantry busses at a high rate. The most basic, or clean, variant is proof against 12.7mm rounds, but the average LRRA armored carrier generally carries protection against at least autocannon rounds. The high degree of torque provided by the electric motors allows for very heavy armor and equipment to be installed at a negligible loss of cross-country performance, and equipped with a wide track the APC-3 can negotiate mud and uneven ground with ease.



The armories are, however, disappointed on the low prospective orders for Bengal class vessels. However, the plus side is that the design is inexpensive and easy to maintain. With many modular features, the Bengal is expected to have relatively wide international appeal, although only nations who stand up to LRR human rights standards will find themselves eligible for such exports.

Hindustani navy variants will certainly mount the new AS. 117 missile, which is nearing the end of prototype stage, owing to the fact that it is mostly only a modified Sea Eagle.

The gun type will probably be an Oto-Melara 76mm super-rapid, or a Bofors 57mm weapon. Perhaps a BM-21 rocket launcher will be fitted, a not-uncommon feature on inshore patrol vessels, although reliable anti-ship accuracy has not been achieved. The AMOS mortar system is a possible candidate for mounting aboard the Bengal class, in front of the RBU-7000 ASROC system.

The armories like the Lovitar-S very much so far, and it will almost certainly provide the Bengal's SAM compliment, if the request for a production liscence goes through.


The LRRN has never been a major user of homing torpedos aboard ships, although they are carried by Sea King, Ka-27, and the new Naval ALH helicopters. Rocket depth-charge systems have always been preferred, and the RBU-7000 fitted to an LRRN Grisha-series corvette, one of a number aquired from the Soviet Union, was responsible for the sinking of a Hound-class submarine near Jeju-do, although not before the submarine destroyed the LRRN's last Sovremenny destroyer, due for transfer to the ROKN.


As for Quinntonian comments, they are generally ignored. Hindustan all too often finds itself between the revolutionary bloc and the western bloc, and while attempts at friendship with both sides have gone well, the sandwitched position of the old Hindustan causes occasional problems.

When it comes to Indian Unification, it is not really an issue. The concept of self-determination when it comes to nationhood is a strong one, although in instances where non-aligned Indian republics have stepped over the line when it comes to human rights their soveriegnties have disappeared like a sandcastle at high tide.

Beddgelen arsenals are prepared to deliver Loviatar-S VLS systems and to co-operate in their integration aboard ships for Beth Gellert and LRR service if their provision in LRR vessels may be offset against the cost of ships to be built for Beth Gellert.

It appears that the navy should like to take delivery of the Bengals (yet without SPN designation) without ASW armaments fitted, as a final decision on that aspect has not yet been reached.

Preliminary work meanwhile is underway on the future APC programme, and engineers have been assigned to more seriously assess the hybrid propulsion systems of LRR vehicles.

(Not knowing anything about the technology, I'm cautious to use it before I know that it is viable, effective, and modern)

OCC: Well, as I mentioned before the Swedes have a new technology demonstrater/prototype APC called SEP which uses a hybrid drive system. I would imagine that LRR, being a little bit more environmentally consicious/scared of oil supplies being cut, mabye jumped the gun a little bit and began developing effective hybrid systems for armored vehicles in the late 80's, pushing the up-to-date MBTs program back a few decades.

I would expect the LRRA to operate several thousand (4,500 or so, probably) APC-3s, mabye a thousand more variant models.

The advantages of a hybrid system are thus:

Improved fuel economy

Lower IR signature

Increased torque with the electric motors (not all that messy heat being thrown about)

Eh...probably lighter too.

It probably costs less to maintain/has a longer service life, and the APC-3 also has bandtracks as opposed to the typical link tracks.

Here's the SEP link:

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/sep/

The wheeled variant is also in LRR service, although in smaller numbers than the tracked and in fewer other variants (perhaps 3000 vehicles).

Bump?

(Sorry, been a bit distracted and chose to deal with other threads first, for some reason. I intend to get back to looking at co-operative ideas today, and, for the record, Igovian investigation into the hybrid engine technology is meeting general approval.)

(Sorry, been a bit distracted and chose to deal with other threads first, for some reason. I intend to get back to looking at co-operative ideas today, and, for the record, Igovian investigation into the hybrid engine technology is meeting general approval.)

OCC: Ok, just checking.

IC:

The Hindustani state arsenals have recently been experimenting with the T-72 tank chassis, and have come up with what might be the army's next-generation MBT.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images2/0478.jpg

The MBT-2, as it has been designated, is a hybrid of the Arjun and T-72, combining the weapons systems and turret of the former with the chassis of the latter. Of course, there are several deviations from the standard T-72, such as the installation of a hybrid powerplant and the replacement of the link tracks with bandtracks.

The MBT-2 is designed as a cheaper alternative to the continuation of much of the LRRA's T-72 fleet, and also an alternative to mass-production of the Arjun Mk. 2.

The MBT-2 has a very low profile and low ground pressure, thanks to the use of composite materials in the turret, tracks, and the greatly reduced weight of the new propulsion system.

A 120mm main gun provides primary weaponry, and it is capable of firing the Lahat ATGM, an israeli weapon liscence-built in Hindustan. This allows the tank to engage targets at ranges of up to seven kilometers (with the enhanced motor on Hindustani models.) There is also a turret-mounted 7.62mm and co-axial 12.7mm machine gun, and there are launchers for 12 smoke grenades, chaff, and IR decoys.

The MBT-2, like the Arjun Mk. 2, carries an active defense system for protection against anti-tank missiles, in additon to its decoy launching apparatus, although the 'Wall' system is somewhat less advanced than active defense systems deployed by other nations. It still gets the job done, though.


The Hindustani army has also chosen a new self-propelled howitzer system, the Bhim. While the system itself is expensive and only about 250 are expected to enter service, the Bhim boasts a very impressive maximum firing range of 52.5 kilometers with the furthest-range projectiles, besting even the Pinaka MRL. This kind of range will allow the Hindustani army to safely engage enemy forces from well outside their own artillery coverage. Use of the AT. 46 anti-tank missile system, a copy of the Krasnopol system designed to be installed on 155mm howitzers, the Bhim can target enemy main battle tanks from a very long range (almost 30km!), and can achieve high accuracy even in spite of jamming. The down side to this, however, is the fact that the AT. 46 system is very expensive per missile, so the AT. 43 will remain the LRRA's principle anti-tank weapon.

(Hm, I sort of forgot about this thread. Really should get back on-top of all this. Sort out what's happening with the naval projects, especially, now that the Soviet People's Navy is re-structuring with significant WIG-effect vehicle use. I *will* remember to get back into this thread! I think that BG will be making a lot more use of hybrid engines and the like, and I just have to organise all my rather far-flung data and reconcile past ideas with the changed weight of Igovian military organisation.)

OOC: Howdy guys, just checking if BG is still on for assisting with the SE Asian ABM shield project.

Also, I can't remember if Hindustan expressed an interest in it; if Hindustan wants in, the more the merrier.

Indeed, The Commonwealth, of course, is already seeing to its own ABM protection with Red Sky and Arawn, but would like to see friendly Marimaia and Vietnam afforded similar protection, for their loss would also be Beth Gellert's.
Shortly, Portmeirion hopes to negotiate for an increase in trade and tourism between India and SE Asia, specifically as relates to a planned boost to travel across the Bay of Bengal thanks to the introduction in coming months and years of ground-effect vehicles in civilian roles, making the trip significantly less expensive.

ABM Project for South-East Asia?! Maybe you should reconsider? Given that the idea of the Modern World is based on modern technology that is feasible with the resources and technology that your nations posses. For example, originally UE had a fleet of supercarriers the size of Nimitzes and larger, based on my 3 billion population. However I doubt modern world UE will have much in the way of aircraft carriers at all as it would not be very likely, and I am also ignoring the ABM project my nation developed originally, as it is inplausible that we would have such a thing, when even the US cannot. We consider ourselves to be well developed technologically (probably on a par and in some areas a ahead of Israel) but an ABM program is pushing it.

(Well, hence the possibility of Beddgelen technical aid, BG being marginally bigger and wealthier than the real US, and maintaining, for example, a nuclear arsenal many fold smaller than the American, and a lesser nuclear deployment ability. I don't actually know how expansive or effective Marimaia hopes this shield to be, though. The Igovian assumption is that it will protect vital centres against short to medium range ballistic missiles from China and any restored Bonstockian empire. If it is significantly more capable, Beddgelen aid will be jepordised by the fact of our other current ambitious prestige programmes like the giant WIG-effect vehicles and the acquisition of Russia's unfinished shuttles and An-225 (See Iskra! news thread))

Quite frankly BG, I don't think its very plausible that you would indeed be more powerful than the US, given that the history of the Modern World is based on that of the RL world. While in theory United Elias, being exceedingly wealthy for obvious reasons, could be more powerful than the US, from a geo-political point of view I don't see how it could have evolved as such, given that these things don't happen overnight. Taking this into account and for the sake of good RP I have toned down UE from a being monstrously powerful hyperpower to be the world's second or third superpower as this is more appropriate to the nation's history and circumstance. I would recommend that you do the same as you may have trouble getting people to believe that a country located on the Indian sub-continent, with the resources of that territory, could have become the world's foremost military nation; and if that was not enough, believing that it runs on roughly the same amount of fossil fuels as France. By joining the MW community, part of the price is sacraficing the ten million man armies and committing to RP for RP's sake rather than 'winning' or 'losing', I am certain you understand this and I don't want to seem patronising, but I do believe you need to bring this into perspective somewhat.

OOC: The key there is 'based on'. While I don't claim that AMW's SE Asia is home to vast wealth and resources, I do believe that the historical, social and political differences between it and RL SE Asia have resulted in a better financial and technological situation. Of course, we're not talking mighty economic superpower here; rather consistent growth and a stable 'tiger economy', or it was until the various wars broke out in the region. Given time, the economic situation should recover.

Anyway, the ABM plan is simply to give SE Asia some defence should missiles start flying from China/Indonesia/insert regional nation here. Rangoon is being slowly rebuilt after it was hit with numerous Bonstockian missile strikes (it had previously been left badly damaged due to scorched earth tactics by the Myanmar military junta); Marimaia's capital was also hit several times by Bonstockian strikes. China is uber-aggressive, Indonesia is falling under a regime which poses a future possible threat; so Marimaia, their client states and Vietnam are moving to provide better protection for their major cities, as they are the first target on any enemy hitlist. It's a joint plan between four nations; however, of the four Marimaia is the only one with any sort of ABM defence (and that's old Soviet tech situated entirely around the five major cities of the nation), so they're looking for outside help to get it done.

Besides, Vietnam are dragging their heels over finalising any plans for various reasons, so it might all become a pipe dream.

it all depends what you eman by ABM system, even tiny little strathdonia has a few patriot batteries (bought from EADS before the French mucked everythign up, but mind you they bankrupted us and just as we recovered from that we spent all our money on the mirage 2000s from LRR and then gettign them upgraded).

And techinically speaking the stuff like the russian interceptor missiles (or the BG/African commonwaelth/lusakan versions) wouldn't be that expensive.

Soviet russia actually had many interceptor missile systems.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/bmd.htm

Indeed. I honestly can not see what the problem is, with BG having ABM defences, certainly.

And BG has quite decent natural resources, be it oil in Tamil Nadu, near Pondicherry, or the Palk Strait, copper in Andhra Pradesh and Chhatisgarh, coal in Chhatisgarh, Orissa and Andhra Pradesh (which powers our few remaining, ancient fossil-fuel burning powerplants, all planned for eventual replacement by hydro and nuclear stations), iron in Chhatisgarh and Karnataka, gold, some diamonds, asbestos, chromite, mica, bauxite, blah dee blah...

Anyway, erm, BG's history dramatically splits from the real India's almost two thousand years ago, so it's pushing it to equate us to them very directly at all. It's quite different until the British and French arrive, where upon the presence of pre-existing whites further alters India's progress and sits it in better stead. Decades of representative democracy and capitalism probably saw BG exploiting the hell out of smaller, weaker, poorer south Asian and east African nations, before the revolution which I'm not sure where to place, now. 80s or, at the latest, the mid 90s, I tend to assume.

I haven't absolutely decided that BG's economic strength will last long term, and generally suppose that it will be decided if and when our vital NPC trade partners come into more direct play, or are taken-over by new players.

I think you're just bitter on the oil consumption thing because BG isn't buying into your fuel economy bit ;) I just can't see how we would use more oil than that. In what? Our hydro electic plants? Nuclear plants? Coal burning plants? Solar and wind farms (not undergoing further expansion after it was decided that they were not as (cost) effective as hoped)? Maybe our bicycles and electric trams and trains are behind it! There's always the armed forces with their nuclear submarines and, newly, fuel-efficient wing-in-ground-effect vehicles, I suppose, they must eat through the odd barrel or two.

The fuel economy is big because it makes people money in societies where money and power are linked. In Beth Gellert, money is linked with other trinkets we dug out of the ground and put on display in national museums, and power is less interesting than a good drunken chariot race.

Well, I am still deeply skeptical than any command economy can ever be as efficient as a free market one, but I know that you will contend me on that issue. So if you insist on RPing your nation as powerful as you believe it is, then I will have to do the same, as logically United Elias would be forced to maintain a military balance, and its not as though we can't afford to do so.
The other thing that seems rather unlikely is that a communist revolution would happen when communism in the rest of the world collapsed....Anyway, I accept that this isn't the RL world, so I'll let it go, anyway I suppose the idea of a massive communist country fairly close to a massive capitalist one makes for a tense RP situation to say the least. While we're on the subject, I think its important to know that compared to the Middle East countries in RL, United Elias actually recieves slightly less in oil revenue as much more is consumed domestically. In other words over the years we have been constantly diversifying the economy, so our industrial base is now rather large and we are almost completely self-sufficent for defence and may other sectors and a major exporters of secondary products as well. The result, when combined with huge oil exports is a massive trade surplus, with fairly low unemployment.

Please, this is supposed to be a thread concerning the relatively pointless proceedings of the Hindustani Defense Forces and the more purposeful development of Bedgellen arms, not a debate on the validity of economic systems.

It is truth that soviet russia, a nation very far from the communist ideal, operated numerous interceptor missile systems. These systems differed from the current US one under development in that they used low-yield nuclear weapons to destroy the missiles as opposed to a direct impact between the interceptor and the target missile. The ICBMs would be destroyed in the same way that they were intended to destroy millions of human beings.

Portmeirion is presently considering that it really ought to carry out some serious interceptor tests to decide future payload of Arawn or later missile systems. That is to say, to decide whether nuclear warheads are ideal or even desirable in the sort of ABM defences available to the Commonwealth.

(Ah. You're doing the whole muddling politics, economics, liberties, revolutions, and what not. Russia's nonsensical development has not very much to do with Beth Gellert's. It seems, UE, that a lot of your concerns are based merely on what just happens to have occured thus far at this arbitrary juncture in the history of human development, and thinking of BG in terms of the real-world Soviet bloc is just completely futile. If the Russian revolution had been defeated and I'd never had a Soviet Union to look at, I'd still be playing BG like it is.
Maybe, if we're all still hanging around on NS years from now, people will have seen more of BG and I'll have had opportunity's to express the ways in which it tends to defy initial expectations, and it'll be seen differently. If not... oh, well.

Hm, now, those corvettes and all... where the heck are we with those? Why must I so poorly time my military over-hauls?)

I think that by now, due to the fact that the navy is severely lacking in numerical strength compared with others, most of them have been built.

But for a comparison, the RL united states navy could match just about every HN vessel with something at least five thousand tons heavier.

I think... and I may regret saying this... but I think that I will compile a post that details just about every significant bit of technology serving the Igovian military, from land cruisers to assault rifles and submarine tenders to UAVs, so that I can see exactly what is missing, and Hindustan can see the same. Hopefully this will get me to stop feeling so fuzzy-minded about all this, and I can figure out what needs to be done.

This could take a while...

I think... and I may regret saying this... but I think that I will compile a post that details just about every significant bit of technology serving the Igovian military, from land cruisers to assault rifles and submarine tenders to UAVs, so that I can see exactly what is missing, and Hindustan can see the same. Hopefully this will get me to stop feeling so fuzzy-minded about all this, and I can figure out what needs to be done.

This could take a while...

I'm actually doing something rather similar, only not just equipment, with pretty much every unit as well. Its quite a task, but when its done I'll have a very clear idea about how large my forces are, how they are organised to quite a precise degree and what equipment they use.

I've already done soemthign like it but it needs updating and mroe details on the actual peices of equipment (i pretty much rely on people knowing what BAe Hawks and various brazilian weapons are).

As a point of interest on the side would anyone (who is in some form of vaguely freindly alingment with strathdonia) be interested in developing a 75mm development of the isreali 60mm HV gun? i'm looking at tsoemthign apraoching the 75/105 gun the US were thinking about for the airborne tank project that preceeded the M8 AGS (or was about the same time).

basically i'm looking to regun all but a few of my sheridens with these and then import some Stingray/stingray2s and regun them so i can finally retire my shermans. Of course this still does nothing for my centurions which ideally would be repalced with oraios or possibly challengers if I am really nice to TBF.

Sure, I'd be happy to start such a project.

I would imagine that most Hindustani T-55s and PT-76s were upgraded to use the 60mm HVMS, and although all such examples have now been retired and are considered surplus, there is a sizeable market for upgrades to the T-55 and PT-76, and an improved cannon would certainly be more useful to whoever operates the retired Hindustani vehicles next. (Most likely African nations or Kanendru, perhaps former Marimaia).

This Website (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/m-113/HVMS.html) talks about the HVMS on an M113. I think that's a fairly good idea. While there wouldn't be any use for such a vehicle in the Hindustani army, where the APC-3 (imagine a tracked SEP (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/sep/) with the turret of a BMP-2) provides good anti-tank and anti-helicopter capabilities, there would undoubtedly be a good-size export market.

You know, it might just be better to consider the BMP-2 as the primary Hindustani armored vehicle.

I would imagine the Hindustani variant, called APC-2, is fairly more heavily armored, able to withstand automatic cannon rounds, and has some nice anti-mine features. It is probably a bit larger too, able to carry three crew plus eight infantry troops, and re-engined with a hybrid powerplant. It remains amphibious, of course, and also retains the 30mm cannon, although in a re-designed turret that also mounts four AT. 43 missiles.

The Roycelandian Defence Forces, meanwhile, have expressed concern at the "Dated" appearance of Roycelandia's fighters, tanks, and ships.

Technically, they're "Modern"- the Jetfire is the equivalent of an F-22, for all intents and purposes, the Roycelandia class Dreadnoughts have the latest in electronics, ECMs, SAMs, rangefinders, etc etc, the Emperor Heavy Tank can beat the crap out of an M1 Abrams- but all the designs are "Classic".

I've often wondered who buys our stuff in AMW... Whilst we supply firearms to all and sundry (If someone in your Nation has an SMLE or SLLE rifle, chances are it was made in Roycelandia), I've noticed most of our attempts to sell military hardware to people have fallen on deaf ears...

Perhaps it's time for us to develop some "Export" designs, or just advertise heavily?

That's a good question, really. What AMW nations do support Roycelandia's arms export industry? I assume that Beth Gellert finds a market in surviving formerly USSR customer regimes and a few others: Libya, Venezuala, Vietnam, and in player-controlled terms Dra-pol (and through them North Yaman and possibly Spyr) have ended up with Igovian armaments and of course we are involved in some exchanges with Hindustan. But then, who else would left-leaning nations look to if not BG? Dra-pol exports arms but hasn't the spare industrial capacity of the Commonwealth to make a really good go of it, and Hindustan just isn't as heavily militarised.

Elsewhere, thought, the UK and Quinntonia are presumably both massive exporters, and then there's more nations like United Elias that may have become significant net exporters of arms if they've chosen to in AMW, all competing with the likes of Roycelandia. Perhaps the empire should be looking to make export partners where it has traditionally seen potential colonies? :)

On the APC/ICV type thing... BG initially bought BMP-2s during the last days of the USSR, but didn't get many before that collapsed and the Igovian economy took off and looked to produce for its own needs.

The CICV (Commonwealth Infantry Combat Vehicle) family wasn't initially much more than an Indian rip-off of the BMP-2, but the latest series -the Wombat- (I say series because it includes squad, command, ground-scan radar, counter-battery radar, ambulence, repair and recovery and other versions) basically just fitted a new powerpack and turret with better electronics and an up-rated armour package. We were always satisfied with them until a bit of research started to show surprising weaknesses with the sort of ICV that the Wombat is: it probably wouldn't last a day fighting in RL Chechnya, for example. We were very happy with the 30mm cannon, which can disable our disused T-72-alikes at the better part of a mile away as well as being useful against softer targets and aircraft, but then observed the British fitting their Warriors with 40mm cannon that make ours look like a dart gun.

I think that one of the things we do will be to create a new ICV family that is part CICV/BMP part Warrior/Bradley, with some answer to the 40mm gun and a hybrid engine based upon Hindustani technology. This will mean that thousands of ICVs will be withdrawn over coming years, most less than a decade old and probably still well maintained. Might have to flood the 2nd world with BMP replacements :)

Well i do use a few M113HVMS but i'm also thinking of using surplus 60mm guns on my few scorpions, now that would be a scary design.

Royce i imagine you are securing quite a few low level deals in strathdonia (like the sharpshooter SLLE) its just that on bigger deals strathdonia has very strict requirements (read that to mean i'm a picky bugger).

I suppose that our recently aquired andovers and belfasts might have actually come from you if you could move your "classic" look into the 50s/60s.

Actually, never mind about the BMPs. It wasn't a very good idea. Its just too small a platform for my uses. I mean, the thing should be able to take a lot more abuse, and carry at least ten troops.

As for cannons, APC-3s probably are armed with 30mm turrets, although their most important weapon is the AT. 43B, quite possibly the world's best ATGW series, placed in operation to compensate for the Hindustani army's very small tank force.

I can imagine a program to equip the APC-3 with the HVMS, however.

But Strath, how do you feel about making that 75mm replacement with me? I can imagine some nice platforms for such a weapon, and export customers to go with it...

AML-90s, BMP-2s, T-62s, ERC-90s, Scorpions, M-48s, AMX-13s...the list goes on and on.

Hey, do you think anybody still uses the M3 halftrack? An upgrade package for that might be in the works...

I'd imagine that the Israelis have some manner of upgrade package available on that. Could be wrong. Think they used it to launch missiles and stuff.

I'd never really thought about it, but I expect that BG may have old M3s in storage somewhere, as it seems very likely that the Principality would have used them in its cavalry formations. Perhaps the Lancers would have evacuated them to Victoria and Salvador.
If anybody still uses them in AMW, I expect we'll have to look to the under developed nations. If you specifically want to work-up an upgrade programme for the fun of it/a business venture, BG could sell disused examples for peanuts, Hindustani factories work up a package, and market them to the likes of Lusaka or Strathdonia, perhaps (we need more poor countries!).

Oh i would defiantly be interested, but being me i'm not sure wether i want to make it 75mm or 76.2mm (3") either should work well.

normally i wouldn't touch soviet gear with a ten foot barge pole but some T-64s might be an option in an attempt to finally get our Shermans retired or perhaps a few AMX-13s...

i don't think Strathdonia would have much of a use for half tracks, msot of our gear is older british or newer brazilian stuff, now BTRs we might have a use for to replace our M113s

Oh i would defiantly be interested, but being me i'm not sure wether i want to make it 75mm or 76.2mm (3") either should work well.

normally i wouldn't touch soviet gear with a ten foot barge pole but some T-64s might be an option in an attempt to finally get our Shermans retired or perhaps a few AMX-13s...

i don't think Strathdonia would have much of a use for half tracks, msot of our gear is older british or newer brazilian stuff, now BTRs we might have a use for to replace our M113s

Replace M113s with BTRs? Hmmn, much smarter to buy some applique armour kits from Israel.

Well i'm thinking more of the savanah style terrain of my region of africa (an area where tracked vehicles are very rare), up armoured M113s would still be a feature of the heavy cavalry inf force and likely 1 of the dragoon formations with the rest transitioning to wheeled APCs (not striker). Ideally i would love to license the CM-31 from ireland/tiawan (basis for crookur's stoat family) but something cheap and plentiful from the BTR60/70/80 family would be far more affordable. unless of course you are producing the Saudi wheeled APC (can't remeber the name off the top of my head).

Well, while Al Khals is fully aware that trade with Beth Gellert is simply not going to happen in any serious fashion, it is undeniable that some of the things talked about here could be of interest to Via'di'arl.

In the recent war with Lusaka, Al Khali mechanisation was shown to be... all wrong. The armoured thrusts into the UARL were too slow given the poor infrastructure, vast extent of the terrain, and the small nature of our military and its support corps. Small numbers of BMPs, tracked SPGs, MT-LBs, and M48A6K, Vickers, and M1A2-AK Abrams battle tanks and vehicles based on them didn't make much sense against hordes of Lusakans zipping about in BTR-152s, trucks, and jeeps.

Al Khals might possibly be interested in cheap half-tracks, and is certainly interested in any pending developments in the field of wheeled armoured vehicles.

...and, though this may not be the thread to deal with it, on a slightly related note, if anybody out there is selling surface to air missile systems such as may replace SA-7, SA-3, or HQ-2A/B they should remember to give Al Khals a call. Perhaps we'll stick some MANPADs on the back of one of those half-tracks.

Strathdonia, no we aren't producing the Al Fahd, personally I don't think very highly of it. Until not so long ago wheeled armour was not really an issue in the Elias Army. We pretty much had mechanised/armoured and motorised units, with little in between other than a few BTRs. Now we have developed Light Mechanised Brigades of which there are now 13 (1 Seperate Brigade, 2 Light Mech. Divisions plus one Light Mech. brigade replacing a motorised brigade in each of the 3 Expeditionary Infantry Divisions) which is based on the Faaris (Arabic for Knight) LAV.

The Faaris is based on the LAV-III/Piranha 8x8 chasis, with some key differences to Stryker. Firstly the hull itself ustilises more titanium than steel, which obviously is considerably more expensive although lighter. The main difference is the armour, the Faaris uses a modular scalebable ceramic ballistics protection, and modular Hybrid-Reactive armour Panels similar to the concept of the under-development Rafael L-VAS and Ultrax/CLARA .The addon armour uses thick, field replaceable units which can be safely handled and stored.

With the minimum level of armour, the hull is protected from 14.5mm protection machine gun rounds as well as most mortar and artillery fragments, as well as limited protection against RPGs, in specific areas. This protection is afforded by the use of ceramic tiles, composed of cylindrical pellets and mosaics of small cubes, embedded in energy absorbing matrix, which provide effective protection against multiple hits. This affords similar or slightly better protection at much lower weight to High Hardness Steel (HHS) Armour used on Stryker. This layout is ideal for open terrain missions where the primary defence of the vehicle can be speed, and where there is larger distance between the enemy and the vehicle.

For urban operations, where CE projectiles such as ATGMs and RPGs can be aimed from a shorter distance and therefore specifically target weaker areas, the applique modules can be added. The lightweight metal-free reactive armour module combines layers of sheet explosives and composites which effectively engage the shaped charge plasma jet of an incoming CE threat, but creates no fragments, as after the explosion the composite material disintegrates into chaff without endangering nearby troops. The marginal decrease in vehicle performace due to the additional weight is neglible in this enviroment and provides excellent protection against CE projectiles, and KE projectiles up to around 30mm when combined with the standard ceramic composite. However it is fairly hopeless at dealing with large KE Projectiles, but quite frankly a LAV is never going to stand up well against a tank gun anyway, and a Full Spectrum Active Protection System was deemed too costly.

The armament system of the standard Infantry Carrier Version of the Faaris is basically the same as the OWS-25R (Scroll Down) (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/ows/OWS.html) which includes a 25mm cannon, a 7.62mm coax. MG, two ATGMs, and smoke dischargers. There are also many other versions (similar to the different Stryker versions) including a version fitted with a 105mm turret.

In short, the Faaris is a more expensive (3 million+ per unit sounds about right?), but more capable version of the LAV-III which is actually lighter in its basic configuration, though probably slightly larger (I reckon ceramic composites take up more space than RHA), which is less of an issue as the EA-80 cabin is wider and higher than the C-130. The general concept of employment for the Light Mechanised Force is in LIC situations, and in a conventional force as a screening/cavalry/recon role, and generally in support of the heavier units. Wheras in many RL militaries LAVs are being intriduced in place of tracked vehicles, in the Elias Army they are replacing some of the motor infantry, which was a disproportionally large force. Orders of Faaris versions for domestic use thus far is a total of 5,290 with any further orders being attrition replacements only. Including development expenditure this will mean a total program cost of around $17 billion spread over probably seven fiscal years.

The other Armoured Vehicles in service with the Elias Army include the BMP-3 which is the most numerous, and in Advanced Mobile Combat Divisions only, the new Merkava based Nemerah (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=381500) (which I assume we co-developed with Israel, since our two governments have quite close relations, though for the benefit of our predominantly Arab population it is not a very public relationship)

Ok, well sorry for all that laregly unsolicited information, but I kinda wanted to post it somewhere....

Well ir econ i need to fix the gap that exists in the progression from Land rovers/pinzagaur light trucks to Avibras AV-VBL/AV-VB4 (armoured vehciles on a UNIMOG chassis) and the odd old british saracen to M113s.

A decetn 6x6 or 8x8 wheeled APC is defiantly on the shopping list, and on looking current optiosn would be soemthign from the BTR family, the slovenian Valuk, italian puma, or finish XA-200 series, the Patria AMV would be lovely but a bit expensive i woudl imagine.

I'm looking priamrily for APCs, IFVs might be a option for a few units.
as to numbers i would be looking 624 (156x4) to equip 12 of the 16 mechanised/infantry battalions of the 1 st dragoons divsion (currently 4 battalions with M113s, 8 with AV-VBLs and 4 with land rovers/trucks, eventual aim would be for 12 with WAPC (4 of those with WIFVS?) and 4 with AV-VBLs freeing up the M113s (converted to 60mm gun carriers?) for the 2nd divsion and AV-VBLs for the territorials, i might buy another 2 battlaions of WAPCs to add to the territorials.

Of course if people wish to amke offers (Royce: now would eb good tiem to make an offer)

Would you consider the Faaris? Its expensive but could be discounted under an I-MAD program. I know you said not Stryker and it is based on the same Piranha/LAV III chasis, but it rectifies many of the issues with that system (though I think Stryker has been way over-criticised, I mean remember the uproar about the Bradley which now everyone thinks is great?)


Al Khals, if your looking for MANPADs UE makes the Thaqib (Shooting Star) MANPAD, its basically a license built SA-16 of slightly higher quality construction.

I think that it might be bit heavy and advanced for our uses but i'll keep it on the list.

Now the other alternative would be to produce an armoured version of the 6x6 pinzagaur trucks...

How would you feel about the Turkish Cobra WLAVs? Too Small? We've license built quite a few for the Redif (National Guard) as well as the Internal Security Force.

Roycelandia still uses the M3 Halftrack, albeit with various updates to reflect the "Modern" battlefield.

As for who buys our stuff: I've always assumed various small NPC countries (East Timor, for example), Strathdonia (Colonial Aerospace makes Andovers etc), possibly places like Iran... you get the idea.

How would you feel about the Turkish Cobra WLAVs? Too Small? We've license built quite a few for the Redif (National Guard) as well as the Internal Security Force.

To be honest the AV-VBL and AV-VB4-RE and very similar to the cobra so its a gap thats already filled.

Well i'm thinking more of the savanah style terrain of my region of africa (an area where tracked vehicles are very rare), up armoured M113s would still be a feature of the heavy cavalry inf force and likely 1 of the dragoon formations with the rest transitioning to wheeled APCs (not striker). Ideally i would love to license the CM-31 from ireland/tiawan (basis for crookur's stoat family) but something cheap and plentiful from the BTR60/70/80 family would be far more affordable. unless of course you are producing the Saudi wheeled APC (can't remeber the name off the top of my head).

I think, actually, that the BTR-40 and BTR-152 might be good choices for simple troop taxis. If nothing else, you can get out of them pretty fast, and with a quick re-engining they could be used to carry a wide range of armements.

Hinndustan uses a fair number of both those types, or rather copies of them in a multitude of roles. They are mostly used for deployment operations, though, because very little beats the APC-3 in the Indian environment.

You've got to remember that lasting Soviet equipment was built for cheapness and ease of use. With a multi-million man army, it simply would not do to train everybody to do things that the average Western soldier was supposed to do. In this day and age, it really isn't practical to operate soviet equipment unless you have lots of it or you upgrade it nicely.

Of course, most Hindustani equipment, especially discarded BTR-152s, would be supplied for very small costs.

Whilst Roycelandia doesn't use Soviet equipment as a matter of course (although we have acquired a lot of it over the years from various places, including 2 squadrons of MiG-21s).

We do, however, have warehouses FULL of surplus military equipment, since we never throw anything out. Need some Grant tanks? We've got some. Need an Il-2 Sturmovik? We've got heaps of them.

We recently found over 500 Nordenfeldt Mechanical Guns in a storehouse in REA, which shows you how much stuff we've got that even we don't know about...

After a bit of cheeky looking around the web at work I have a couple of new suggestions, well one: the brazilian EE-11 which keeps up with our habit of buying brazilian stuff...

on the light tank front i vering away from the Stingray family and looking at the argentinian TAM...

"The only good things that ever came out of Brazil are string bikinis, wax, and coffee"- His Imperial Majesty Emperor Royce I, at a recent World Trade Conference.

Analysts suspect he might have over-indulged on the Bourbon or Strathdonian Malt at the time...

United Elias, The Dubai Defence Corps would be interested in evaulating the Faaris LAV. We would be interested in them for three Armoured Car Squadrons (currently using the very old Ferret) and perhaps a number of infantry battalions, which are all equipped with the M113. This would then make the force more balanced, while freeing up M113s to be used by another Trucial State force, probably the Arab Froniter FoOrce, or the Abu Dhabi Defence Force.

After a bit of cheeky looking around the web at work I have a couple of new suggestions, well one: the brazilian EE-11 which keeps up with our habit of buying brazilian stuff...

on the light tank front i vering away from the Stingray family and looking at the argentinian TAM...

I just noticed that up there you mentioned T-64s...well, there is a slight problem involved in getting them. While they are very good tanks, especially with applied modifications, they were never exported, except within the Soviet Union itself. I would imagine that you might be able to scrape a few up in Kazakhstan, but you'd have to deal with AC.

The T-72 was actually the export tank, while the USSR kept the T-64 for the native divisions.

As for the TAM, well, I suppose its a good choice. You might want to look into the LAR-160 carrier version of that vehicle, although personally I would go with the GRADLAR in the savannah-type terrain.

The HA has recently been looking into the AMOS mortar system. How would you guys rate that? Might be useful to compliment the ATGWs.

United Elias, The Dubai Defence Corps would be interested in evaulating the Faaris LAV. We would be interested in them for three Armoured Car Squadrons (currently using the very old Ferret) and perhaps a number of infantry battalions, which are all equipped with the M113. This would then make the force more balanced, while freeing up M113s to be used by another Trucial State force, probably the Arab Froniter FoOrce, or the Abu Dhabi Defence Force.

This could definately be arranged, how many would your country be willing to purchase, and in what versions?

I just noticed that up there you mentioned T-64s...well, there is a slight problem involved in getting them. While they are very good tanks, especially with applied modifications, they were never exported, except within the Soviet Union itself. I would imagine that you might be able to scrape a few up in Kazakhstan, but you'd have to deal with AC.

The T-72 was actually the export tank, while the USSR kept the T-64 for the native divisions.

As for the TAM, well, I suppose its a good choice. You might want to look into the LAR-160 carrier version of that vehicle, although personally I would go with the GRADLAR in the savannah-type terrain.

The HA has recently been looking into the AMOS mortar system. How would you guys rate that? Might be useful to compliment the ATGWs.

my mistake i always get mixed up with the various T designations.

The LAR version of the TAM looks nice (i only recetnly found out the TAM is basically a modified marder IFV) but i really don't need any more rocket artillery, i think my ASTROS II/III and Hawk LAR are enough for just now.

i think ic an probabaly find the funing in my budget to start work on the 75 HVG project if you wish to go ahead.

As for AMOS it looks pretty awesome and a very nice bit of kit if you can afford it.

Well if its the T-72 your after, we have quite a few hundred kicking about. Our Reserve Armoured Divisions use them and since we are gradually moving them over to the T-90 series, and we have abolsihed one division entirely, hence a significant surplus. (Active divisions use the indigenously built T-80UME - think a T-84 with a few differences, and AMC Divisions use Merkava.) Most of the retired T-72s are T-72Ms as the newer T-72S versions will probably remain in service for the foreseable future.

A future project perhaps, my centurions can get by for a few mroe years yuet...

Perhaps an ATGW launching upgrade might be in store?

All right, here's the first draft of the military run-down I mentioned. It is probably incomplete and riddled with errors, as I am finishing it at the same time as another bottle of India Pale Ale, but it is at least a start to work from!

The Igovian Soviet People’s Defence Forces

Soviet People's Navy assets

Anunkai Class Nuclear Powered Attack/Cruise Missile Submarine (into service- 1990s)
Liopleurodon ferox Class Nuclear Powered Ballistic Missile Submarine (into service- late 1980s-1990s)
Restoration Class Diesel Powered Submarine Tender (into service late 1980s-1990s, a relatively poorly automated ship but considered still effective)

Bodkin Class Integrated Full Electric Propulsion General Warfare Frigate Batch 3A (into service- late 1990s-2000s, Batch 1 appeared mid 1980s)
Gauntlet Class Integrated Full Electric Propulsion Air Defence Frigate Batch 3 (into service- as above)

Nibiru Class Diesel Powered Light Assault Carrier (into service- mid 1980s-1990s)
India Class Integrated Full Electric Propulsion Trimaran Fleet Carrier (into service- late 1990s-2000s)

Gull Flag Class Diesel Powered Fire-Support Ship (into service- late 1990s, future uncertain)

Rapier Class Diesel-Electric Powered Mine Countermeasures Vessel (into service- 1990s)
Mine Countermeasures Support/Command Ship required?

Benefactor Class Diesel Powered Ammunition Ship (into service- late 1980s-1990s)
Verix Class Diesel Powered Combat Stores Ship (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)
Bompton Class Diesel Powered Support Tanker (into service- early 1990s-2000s)
Palaemon Class Diesel Powered Heavy Support Ship (into service- early 1990s)
Hyena Class Diesel Powered Expeditionary Transport Ship (into service- late 1990s-2000s)
Ysbyty Class Diesel Powered Hospital Ship (into service- early 1990s)

Dwrgi-T Assault Transport Wing-In-Ground-Effect Vehicle (into service- 2000s)
Dwrgi-P Coastal Defence Wing-In-Ground-Effect Vehicle (into service- 2000s)
Red Dragon Strategic Transport Wing-In-Ground-Effect Vehicle (into service- 2000s)

Ka-32BG Super Helix Anti-Ship/Submarine Warfare Helicopter (into service- late 1990s-2000s)
Merlin Medium Support Helicopter (into service- late 1990s, only a small number serve as a stop-gap measure and are in a BG-specific configuration)

MaL Morrigan Unmanned Aerial Reconnaissance/Precision-Strike Vehicle (into service- 2000s)

JaF NT-2 Puffin Vertical-Take-Off and Landing Strike Fighter (into service- early 1990s)

Type 3-B MKII 305mm Air-Launched Homing Torpedo (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)
Type 1-B MKII 517mm Ship/Submarine-Launched Wire and Passive-Accoustic Homing Torpedo (into service- early 1990s-2000s)

Qian Wei Submarine and Air-Launched Anti-Shipping Missile (into service- late 1990s-2000s)
Charioteer Long-Range Anti-Shipping Missile (into service- 2000s)

Sumpit Optically-Guided High-Velocity Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (into service- 2000s)
JaF DRAB Infra-Red-Guided Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (into service- 2000s)
Apti L'Angelot Maudit Active-Radar-Guided Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)

People’s Fighting Coast Guard assets

Hound Class Diesel-Electric Powered Coastal Defence Submarine (into service- late 1960s-early1990s, considered obsolescent)

Bengal Class Hybrid Diesel-Electric Powered Multi-Role Corvette (not yet in SPN service, Beddgelen designation not yet chosen)

Dwrgi-P Coastal Defence Wing-In-Ground-Effect Vehicle (into service- 2000s)

MaL Morrigan Unmanned Aerial Reconnaissance/Precision-Strike Vehicle (into service- 2000s)

Preston Maritime Patrol Aircraft (into service- early 1990s, a cost-effective stop-gap measure generally agreed to be requiring replacement)

Ka-32BG Super Helix Anti-Ship/Submarine Warfare Helicopter (into service- late 1990s-2000s)

Type 3-B MKII 305mm Air-Launched Homing Torpedo (into service- early 1990s-2000s)
Type 1-B MKII 517mm Ship/Submarine-Launched Wire and Passive-Accoustic Homing Torpedo (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)

Qian Wei Submarine and Air-Launched Anti-Shipping Missile (into service- late 1990s-2000s)
Charioteer Long-Range Anti-Shipping Missile (into service- 2000s)

Sumpit Optically-Guided High-Velocity Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (into service- 2000s)

Soviet People's Air Force assets

NT4C Hobgoblin Area-Defence/Air Superiority Fighter (into service- 2000s, A model appeared late 1980s)
NT5 Cardinal Point-Defence Interceptor (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)

NT1FBC Springer Fighter-Bomber (into service- late 1990s-2000s, A model appeared mid 1980s)

NT4R Hobgoblin Tactical Reconnaissance Aircraft (into service- late 1990s-2000s)
NT4X Hobgoblin Electronic Counter-Measures Aircraft (into service- 2000s)

Savov NTMKI Preston Utility Transport Aircraft (into service- mid 1980s-2000s)
NTMKII Marathon Heavy Transport Aircraft (into service- late 1980s-2000s)

Marathon Tanker Aircraft (into service- early 1990s-2000s)
Marathon Airbone Early Warning and Control Aircraft (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)

Apti Parliament-A Laser-Guided Air-to-Ground-Missile (into service-
Apti Parliament-B Infra-Red Guided Air-to-Ground-Missile (into service-
Apti Parliament-C Passive-Radar-Guided Anti-Radar Air-to-Ground-Missile (into service-

Sumpit Optically-Guided High-Velocity Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (into service-
JaF DRAB Infra-Red-Guided Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (into service-
Apti L'Angelot Maudit Active-Radar-Guided Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (into service-
MaL AAELRS Command and Active-Passive Radar-Guided Long-Range Air-to-Air Missile (into service-

Air Defence Co-operative assets

CS-400 Red Sky Anti-Ballistic-Missile/ Dual-Range Surface-to-Air-Missile System (into service- late 1980s-late 1990s)
CS-500 Arawn Anti-Ballistic-Missile/Dual-Range Surface-to-Air-Missile System (into service- 2000s)

Loviatar-L Battlefield Defence Surface-to-Air Aissile System (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)

Sumpit 125mm High-Velocity Man-Portable Surface-to-Air Missile System (into service- late 1990s-2000s)

Baarish Self-Propelled Integrated Gun/Missile Air-Defence System (into service- late 1990s-2000s)

TG-5 100mm Anti-Aircraft-Artillery Gun (into service- mid 1980s-2000s)

People's Kosmonautical Co-operative assets

Antanov An-225 Mriya/Cossack Heavy Transport Aircraft (into service- 2000s)

Buran Reusable Orbiter (into service- 2000s)

Igovian Soviet Army assets

JOS BDA9 High Power 9.3x21mm-BG-Bottlenecked Semi-Automatic Pistol (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)
BRES BGDP Weasel 9.3x21mm-BG-Bottlenecked Sub-Machinegun (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)
JOS BGR Carnyx 6x41mm-BG Bullpup Assault Rifle (into service- late 1990s-2000s)
JOS BGLMG Negev 6x41mm-BG Squad Automatic Weapon (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)
40mm BG Grenade Launcher, Underslung (into service- as above)
OPA BGMK3 Offensive/Defensive Blast Fragmentation Grenade (into service- mid 1980s-2000s)
BRES SNB Stoat 6x41mm-BG Sniper Rifle (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)
OPA LSB Yellow-38 11x72mm-BG Sniper Rifle (into service- late 1980s-2000s)

OPA BGHMG Drosgl 11x72mm-BG Heavy Machinegun (into service- late 1980s-2000s)
BRES IMBG2 Imp 84mm Infantry Mortar (into service- late 1980s-2000s)
JOS LATBG Fossa 102mm Anti-Tank Rocket Unit (into service- late 1990s-2000s)
BRES BGAM Totem-3T 125mm Anti-Tank Guided Missile System (into service- 2000s)
MAL BGMAS Sumpit 125mm High-Velocity Man-Portable Surface-to-Air Missile System (into service- late 1990s-2000s)

OPA Land Cruiser 4x4 Light Utility Vehicle (into service- mid 1980s-2000s current series, early Land Rovers in service since independence)
OPA Totem Anti-Tank Land Cruiser (has Totem 3T launching post and extra missiles)
OPA Sumpit Air Defence Land Cruiser (mounts twin side-by-side Sumpit launchers enabling single launch or targetting of both against single target)
OPA Imp Mortar Transport Land Cruiser (carries 84mm mortar, laser designation equipment)
OPA Land Cruiser Repair and Recovery Vehicle (carries engineer teams, mechanics, tools, light winch)
OPA Heavy Land Cruiser (extra armour, mounts Drosgl HMG, includes extra systems and weather/water protection measures)
SEB Acha 6x6 Soft-Skin Utility Truck (into service- early 1980s-2000s)
SEB Acha Command Vehicle (has extra communications equipment and retractable tent section)
SEB Acha Repair and Recovery Vehicle (carries mechanics, tools and recovery equipment, mounts winch)
SEB Acha Tanker Vehicle (carries a range of fuels in lightly armoured tanks)
SEB Road-Going Tank Transporter (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)

BAARISH Self-Propelled Integrated Anti-Aircraft Artillery and Surface to Air Missile System (into service- late 1990s-2000s)
Loviatar-L Battlefield Defence Surface-to-Air Aissile System (into service- mid 1990s-2000s)

Commonwealth Infantry Combat Vehicle 3 Wombat (into service- late 1990s-2000s, baseline models appeared mid 1980s)
Wombat Field Ambulance
Wombat Armoured Repair and Recovery Vehicle
Wombat Armoured Mobile Command Post
CICV-2 Type-B Agouti (into service- late 1980s-late 1990s)

MT-3 Hotan Main Battle Tank (into service- early 1990s-2000s)
SEB MT-4 Hathi Main Battle Tank (into service- 2000s)

SPG-3 105mm Self-Propelled Guns (into service- mid 1980s-late 1990s, fixed on CICV-2 chassis)
SPG-2 152mm Self-Propelled Guns (into service- late 1990s-2000s, turreted on MT-2 chassis)

TG-4 152mm Towed Artillery Guns (into service- late 1980s-mid 1990s, being phased-out and replaced by SPG-2)
TG-5 100mm Towed Anti-Tank Guns (into service- mid 1980s-mid 1990s, being phased-out and replaced by TG-6)
TG-6 105mm Towed Artillery Guns (into service- late 1980s-2000s)

Pluvia 289mm Rocket Artillery Vehicle 1 (into service- early 1980s-mid 1990s)

TR-2 122mm Towed Rocket-Artillery Piece (into service- mid 1980s-mid 1990s)

JaF Ja-36 Yellowbat Helicopter Gunship (into service- 2000s)

MaL Morrigan Unmanned Aerial Reconnaissance/Precision-Strike Vehicle (into service- 2000s)

Savov NTMKI Preston Light Utility Transport Aircraft (into service- mid 1980s-2000s)
NTMKII Marathon Heavy Transport Aircraft (into service- late 1980s-2000s)

Sumpit 125mm High-Velocity Man-Portable Surface-to-Air Missile System (into service- late 1990s-2000s)

Totem-3T Semi-Automatic-Command-to-Line-Of-Sight or Infra-Red-Guided Anti-Tank Guided Missile (into service- 2000s, Totem family introduced mid 1980s)

So, issues! Anyone, feel free to chip in with comments or suggestions or whatever else, I could probably use the help.

The Soviet People's Navy and People's Fighting Coast Guard have to:
1)Develop a new D/E submarine, primarily for coastal defence
2)Consider development of a command and support ship for mine countermeasures squadrons
3)Finalise details on the Beddgelen version of the Bengal Class corvette already (I think) in Hindustani service.
4)In relation to (3), it was initially thought that only a few Bengal-derivatives would be required to support a run of even smaller litoral warfare vessels. The entry into service of Dwrgi-P altered the litoral seascape, and decisions must be made on the balance of Dwrgi, Bengal-derivative, and potential light craft.
5)A new maritime transport helicopter is sought to replace the Navy's small quantity of imported Merlins.
6)Develop a replacement maritime patrol aircraft, probably following examples set by Nimrod (flog cramped little Prestons off to anyone who'll take them :) )
7)Address "diversification of combat air wing" which is a final naval issue under consideration. With a large fleet carrier strength now a feature of the SPN, it is generally thought that the fleet ought to be able to call on a wider range of combat jets than simply the Puffin. Talk of navalising the Cardinal has been dismissed as the little interceptor is thought to offer too slight a capability improvement in air defence compared to the Puffin, while lacking much of that aircraft's strike ability. The possibility of navalising both Hobgoblin -for air superiority/escort- and Springer -for strike and suppression of enemy air defences- certainly exists, in which case Puffin would continue to serve on Indias in the interim and would also fly on from the Nibirus. The alternative is the creation of a new multirole aircraft probably larger and faster than the Puffin.
8)Produce -possibly in concert with Hindustan- a long-range cruise missile for submarine and perhaps for surface ship launch, possibly by attachment of booster section to Mangonel TLACM

On point three, the Commonwealth will, of course, want to build its corvettes at Soviet yards such as AshPo and those in Victoria and Salvador. It doesn't make sense in our economy to do otherwise. I'm not sure how Hindustan went about the construction of their hulls and the integration of some Beddgelen components, such as the VLS SAMs. That is to say, they could have been built in Hindustan after proper tools were put in place specifically, or in Beddgelert and then exchanged. I would suggest their exchange for powerplants, but, really, the Commonwealth wants to build its own based on the Hindustani technology, in order to learn more about it and create the means to produce such technologies in Beth Gellert.
In the end it matters little, as the ships will end up in service no matter what, I suppose.

The Igovian Soviet Army has to:
1)Develop an IR-guided MANPAD to replace depleted or (regretfully) under-maintained SA-16 stocks and suppliment optically-guided Sumpit
2)Develop a high-capacity Armoured Personnel Carrier utilising Hindustani hybrid engine technology and other cutting-edge components
3)Develop a range of new mechanised rocket artillery pieces to replace rushed Pluvia system and towed TR-2, probably in the two existing calibres and possibly in a single system
4)Replace limited quantity of Merlin utility transport support helicopters with a native design
5)Replace limited quantity of Gazelle helicopters in scout, medevac, command, communications relay, and other secondary roles; possibly tied into item (4)
6)Replace limited quantity of Halo heavy-lift transport helicopters
7)Follow-up proposals for extension of the airforce and navy-dominated UAV programme to create a man-portable scout platform and an intermediate reconnaissance UAV
8)Develop a CICV-4 family of armoured vehicles to replace Wombat and Agouti
9)Replace Land Rover series vehicles with domestic models to serve light transport and tractor, reconnaissance, light fire support, medevac, engineering-support, and other roles

The Soviet People's Air Force has to:
1)Develop a lightweight air-launched cruise missile for use by Springer and potentially in conjuction with navy for deployment on Puffin or future naval strike aircraft

Well, I guess I'll put up a Hindustani equipment rundown as well:

Hindustani Air Force

SAf. 6 fighter (similar to the Su-37, introduced late 1990s)
SAf. 37 fighter (liscence-built Viggen, introduced late 1970s)
SAf. 56 fighter (liscence-built Hunter, introduced mid 1950s, largely withdrawn by 1990s)

SAa. 5 CAS aircraft (liscence-built Jaguar, introduced mid 1970s)

SAt. 2 light transport (An-2 copy, introduced late 1950s)
SAt. 14 light transport (An-14 copy, introduced early 1960s)
SAt. 228 light transport (liscence-built Do. 228, introduced mid 1990s)
SAt. 32 medium transport (liscence-built An-32, introduced late 1980s)
SAt. 76 heavy transport (liscence-built Il-76, introduced late 1980s)

SAh. 8 multirole helicopter (liscence-built Mi-8, introduced mid 1980s)
SAh. 2 'Chetak' light helicopter (liscence-built Alouette III, introduced mid 1970s)
SAh. 1 'Cheetah' light helicopter (liscence-built Alouette II, introduced late 1950s)

Hindustani Navy

Jharkhand class coastal defense vessel (introduced 2001-2003)
Bengal class coastal defense vessel (introduced 2002-05)
Type 25 class coastal defense vessel (introduced 1985-1997)
Abhay class coastal defense vessel (introduced 1989-1990)

Type 12 class multirole frigate (introduced 1974-1979)
Brahmaputra class multirole frigate (introduced 2000-04)

Delhi class destroyer (introduced 1997-2001)
Type 42 class destroyer (introduced 2004-05)

Bihar class AIP attack submarine (introduced 2004-)
Shishumar class D/E attack submarine (introduced 1986-1990)
Type 631 (Foxtrot) class D/E attack submarine (introduced 1969-1973)
Sindhugosh (Kilo class D/E attack submarine (introduced 1993)

Ugra class submarine tender (introduced 1969)

Magar class LST (introduced 1987-1990)
Mk. 3 class multirole LCT (introduced 1980-1986)
Type 773I/IM (Polnochny C/D) class multirole LST (introduced 1976-1982)

Jyoti class replenishment tanker (introduced 1996)
Aditya class replenishment tanker (introduced 2000)
Deepak class replenishment tanker (introduced 1975)

Super Dvora class patrol boat (introduced 1998-)

Pondicherry class minesweeper (introduced 1978-1984)

Matanga class ocean tug (introduced 1983)
Gaj class ocean tug (introduced 2002)
Bhim class harbor tug (introduced 2004)

Hindustani Army

T-4 MBT
T-55 light tank
AMX-13 light tank
T-72 medium tank
PT-76 amphibious light tank

APC-3 multirole armored carrier
APC-2 multirole armored carrier

TATRA (BEML) 815 VP13 (8x8)
TATRA (BEML) VTI (8x8)
TATRA (BEML) Crash/Fire Tender (6x6)
Swaraj Mazda 4x4
Ashok Leyland Super Azad (4x4)
TATA LPTA 713 (4x4)
TATA LPTA 1621 (6x6)
TATA 407 (4x4)

Sarvatra Truck-mouted bridging system
WZT-3 ARV
T-72 Armored Bridge Layer
T-55 Armored Bridge Layer

R. 130 130mm towed MRL
R. 122 GRADLAR MRL
R. 214 'Pinaka' MRL
AT. 43 A/B ATGW
AT. 36 A/B/C land attack missile
AT. 25 ATGW
Akash I SAM
Akash II SAM
JERNAS Rapier SAM

105mm IFG light gun
105mm LFG light gun
155mm M-40 howitzer
155mm Bhim SPH

ZSU-23-2 AAA
Bofors L 70 AAA

Galil 7.62mm assault rifle
Rk. 62 7.62mm assault rifle
VZ. 58 assault rifle
RPG-7 anti-tank rocket
FN MAG 7.62mm LMG
L4A5 7.62mm LMG
NSV 12.7mm HMG
M2 12.7mm HMG

51mm Light Mortar
81mm Medium Mortar
120mm Heavy Mortar
30mm AGS-17

I think I could use mabye a new scout car. The Ferret is getting a tad old...

Mh, yes, the Soviet army goes right from Land Rovers to Wombat ICVs in that regard. But then, we make heavy use of recconnaissance jets GSIC straight-leg infantry teams, satellites, newly of long-range UAVs and formerly of Gazelle scout helicopters, too. Must replace the helicopters, come up with a short or medium range UAV, and replace the Land Rover series.


I'll do it this afternoo-ooon...

After a long delay, the Soviet Commune has begun its programme for the introduction of the Indian joint corvette in Beddgelen configuration.

The class is apparently to be called Gujarat, perhaps in relation to the Hindustani version bearing the name Bengal. It is to be armed with the 76mm quick firing guns taken from Batch 1 Bodkin Class general warfare frigates. The Gujarats will mount two 30mm BG-CIWIS, two quadruple Qian Wei anti-ship missile cannisters, four 517mm torpedo tubes for anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare, and an eight-cell Loviatar-S VLS SAM system. Unusually, it appears that the Beddgelen ships will mount an ASROC system for secondary anti-submarine defence and hope to acquire such through co-operation with the Hindustanis.

Helicopter facilities will probably be employed in conjunction with Ka-32BG Super Helix.

With the Gujarat and the newly announced Ortiagon class submarine, some see a growing shift towards the defensive in Soviet military thinking, helped by the growing number of Dwrgi-P patrol craft and such things as the total lack of a strategic bomber force. While many approve of this, others call it naive at best, and public statements pre-empt any possible move to further reduction of force-projection abilities in the Commonwealth, guardian of world revolution.

Its good to see that you've finally found a name for them!

The standard Hindustani ASROC system is a moderately improved RBU-6000 known as SR. (Submarine Rocket) 2. This is used on the Bengal class, or alternatively the Hindustani version of the Joint Indian Corvette, in conjunction with a quadruple homing torpedo launcher.

I've always thought of the JIC as similar to the Qahir (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/oman/) class corvette, approximately 80m long and with a small helipad.

Hindustani ships mount two 35mm CIWS guns, similar to Oerlikon 35mm/1000 KDG, and the first of the type to be used on any Hindustani vessel. Type 12 frigates still carry the older, larger 40mm CIWS gun, and two of the three Type 42s have been upgraded to use the 35mm gun.

Four 533mm torpedo tubes are mounted as well, complimented with one SR. 2 launcher.

Ten Akash-N SAMs are carried in VLS cells, and can be used against air targets up to 30 kilometers distant. Numerous AAA guns are also carried, including one ZU-23 mount and two 14.5mm stations.

Eight AS. 117 or Sea Eagle missiles supply a considerable anti-ship capability, enabling the Bengals to hit surface targets at ranges in excess of 200km. The BrahMos might be mounted as well, but right now only the Type 42 is configured for it. Alouette IIIs or Gazelles usually operate off the helipad, which isn't quite large enough to safely hold a Sea King.

There are also quite a few chaff and flare launchers and sonar decoys to help out the hardkill systems.

The HN also operates the Jharkhand class corvette, which is an older design closer to the Sa'ar 4 missile boats deployed by Israel.

HDF Finishes Millenium Plan

After a very large amount of deliberation and bickering amongst the just shy of one hundred MPs assigned to the Defense Committe, the long-awaited and very likely indecisive and inspecific Millenium Plan has been completed.

Held aloft in Parliament House, an MP reads the plan.

"Recognizing the horrible and frightening nature of war and military conflict, in The Hindustani Commonwealth or any other nation, re-affirming this Parliament's commitment to use the armed forces at its disposal responsibly and appropriately, and acknowledging the pressing need to curtail poverty, oppression, and malicious government everywhere, and that armed conflict is not a substitute to compromise, diplomacy, and peaceful aid, the Parliamentary Defense Committe submits the following proposal..."

In short, the Defense Committe strongly recommends a number of points to Parliament. First of all, it is suggested that the land forces be expanded to a 'fuller size,' primarily through the aquisition of more rocket artillery and land attack missile systems. The armored contingent is also considered slightly underequipped, so it is furthermore decided to add another two thousand TC. 3 armored multipurpose carriers (all variants) to the Hindustani Army. It is also recommended that Parliament 'seriously investigate' the possibility of aquiring up to 300 more modern tank types. The Challenger series is specifically mentioned, as are the MT-3 and MT-4.

Anti-aircraft, anti-tank, and logistical capacities are all deemed 'sufficient by a safe margin, perhaps slightly excessive.'

It is suggested that the airforce finally retire up to two-thirds of its SAf. 21 fleet and introduce a further two hundred SAf. 4 multirole fighters. The Defense Committe also gives the green light for development of Project No. 8, Hindustan Aeronautics' air superiority fighter prototype, and aquisition of up to 80 such airframes. Strong support is shown for the joint Hindustan/Beth Gellert/Strathdonia Gazelle upgrade package, and it is further suggested that the HAF look into the Merlin as a faster, more modern alternative to the Mi-8, in some roles at least.

The Navy is also the subject of a number of points, the most prominent among them calling for the retirement and recycling of Jharkhand class corvettes, 1970s-vintage vessels which are, as the general consensus goes, past their prime. The Navy Arsenal's 70m Low Observable design is advocated as a replacement, and a production run of 16 vessels is recommended. The Millenium Plan also calls for the removal of HNS Nigeria, Babur, and soon afterward Blake from active service (although, being the historic ships they are, they will be kept in working order as an emergency reserve and as museums). This, as the argument goes, will free up space for the aquisition of several additional destroyers and frigates, and it is quite possible that the eight aborted Gunboats will find manifestation in the Type 12 design.

The Bengal class submarine is mentioned as well, and the Defense Committe suggests an increased production run of 15 boats total. So as not to interfere with the economically vital commercial shipbuilding industry, it is proposed that three or four boats be built in Bedgellen or Lyongian yards.

Hard pressed to find a single person in the Commonwealth who views Hindustan as any kind of a threat, popular approval will generally be found for continued co-operation and help with HDF developments. If a battle-tank expansion is put into serious consideration across the border, MT-3 (formerly called Hotan) technology will most certainly be made available, and it is unlikely that MT-4 Hathi would be denied the same sort of treatment.

Soviets have been keen to raise the issue of the Commonwealth's large Merlin force, almost all of which is in essentially good as new condition. Strong moves for replacement of the design with a totally native model have only increased since the Tory victory in the UK general election, but the question of justifying such massive economic investment in such recent projects as Merlin have nagged. Well, if some could be transfered to Hindustan at only slightly above cost, and Igovian industry were to have benefitted from its experience with final assembly and eventually with near full production, it might look more worthwhile.

Fortunately for the Hindustanis, there's really nobody in the Commonwealth specifically likely to gain or lose in an especially large way by a deal or a lack of it, so it is unlikely to be pushed if contrary to Hindustani interests.

The HDF would be most interested in aquiring up to 120 Merlin HC.3s from Beth Gellert, presumably either to supplement or replace the fleet of Mi-8s.

The MT-4 is also a real possibility, although, in the interest of keeping ties with England running smoothly, the Defense Committe would still like to investigate the availability of Challengers.

With the Millenium Plan approved, work on it gets underway. Within a few weeks, the finishing touches are put on the SAf. 8 prototype, and an airplane looking somewhat like the Eurofighter 2000/Typhoon can be seen carefully puttering around Hindustan Aeronautics' main flight test center at Ahmadabad.

SAf. 4, TC. 3, R. 122, and R. 130 production is stepped up in order to meet the new order, and construction also commences on the 70m low-observable corvette, a design that will probably be named Rajasthan class.

It is actually quite likely that the Soviet Commune will give in quite easily if Hindustan looks to the UK for Challengers... while one might say that the Commonwealth would be keen to get a closer look at that tank's world-beating armour package and to compare such things as its fire-control to the Igovian equivalents, it is actually more true to say that Portmeirion would generally like to see India continue to deal with the UK and potentially to have some positive impact or ties there while the rest of Europe sinks into hell.

The Commune would be happy enough to look into transfering little-used Merlins at around cost once its own replacement programme gets underway.

Around cost, eh? Erm...how much would that be?

The Merlin is a fine helicopter of course, but if it costs too very much it won't look like such a good Mi-8 replacement. After all, Hindustan Aeronautics can turn those out in significant quantities.

The HDF will probably go with the MT-4 after all, since TBF hasn't been showing around very much lately, and I'm not that patient.

Hindustan Aeronautics Flies Pre-Production SAf. 8

The pre-production SAf. 8 prototype, flying over the Arabian Sea, has reportedly broken Mach 2 in level flight, a significant milestone in the program. Powered by two J9 turbofans, the SAf. 8 is Hindustan's first domestically-produced twin engined air superiority fighter, and the first of such a type to be deployed since, well, the English Electric Lightning (which was retired in the late 1980s and still serves in the photo-reconaissance and testbed role).

The type is quite significant in a number of other areas as well. The J9s might very well be thrust-vectored in subsequent variants (although SAf. 8 Mk.1 isn't intended to have super manouverability), and the aircraft on the whole is a low-observable design. Not so low observable as the F-22, J-16, or Bedgellen models, but still not incredibly easy to spot. It also carries a large and powerful search-while-track phased-array radar on par with advanced Russian models (like what's on the Su-27), with utility against other low-observable aircraft.

The SAf. 8 prototype has shown less than stellar STOL performance, necessitating the installation of a breaking parachute, thrust reversers, and provision for RATO bottles, but it is still a rugged design that is capable of taking grass and dirt airstrips with ease. And it still shares many common components with other prolific Hindustan Aeronautics products, driving costs down significantly.

An initial production run of 40 will go into service by the end of the year. This variant, Mk.1, will be an advanced fighter in its own regard, capable of carrying a good eight AAMs and anti-surface missiles. Mk.2, which will likely comprise another 60-70 aircraft, will feature thrust vectoring engines and LGB compatibility. Beyond this expected production run, there is provision for another 100 airframes over a period of several years, co-inciding with the retirement of the SAf. 21 Mk.2.

Bump

So, BG...what do you think?

Very nice, it sort of sounds like a budget eurofighter. The TV engines (even if only 2D up/down) will significantly improve your STOL performance

The Soviet Commune is said to generally approve of the forward march of Hindustani military technology, while many leftists in the Commonwealth are relieved by their impression that the Hindustanis are not allowing themselves to be completely carried away by pressure to militarise.

Soviet engineers and technicians experienced in the Commonwealth's aviation industry are lately becoming more available to consult with Hindustani counterparts as the idea of Indian unity takes hold. While being officially and primarily engaged in Commonwealth projects, many experts who worked on such projects as the NT4 Hobgoblin are naturally curious about the SAf.8 and keen to offer their two pence. The NT4C, Beddgelert's primary air superiority fighter, being powered by twin thrust-vectoring super-cruise engines, provides good grounds for handing on experience at least.

Though the Hindustanis surely already have access to their own missile technology (must admit, I can't remember what sort of weapons you use), the Commonwealth's own technologies are likewise available to the western Indian forces. These of course include the Apti Parliament series AGMs, JaF DRAB ASRAAM, Loviatar-A AMRAAM, Apti L'Angelot Maudit AMRAAM, and MaL AAELRS long-range AAM.

The last missile, having a 58kg warhead and 180km range, was clearly designed with an anti-bomber interceptor duty in mind, and it is noted today that the Commonwealth's early intorspection -now fast falling away- leaves Beth Gellert without a dedicated interceptor of that sort. Many feel that using hyper-expensive, low-signature, agile Hobgoblins with their advanced and agile radar to protect against bomber threats may not be the best policy. Likewise, reliance upon the super-nimble NT-5 Cardinal short-range interceptor may be well and good in peacetime and against minor local threats and as a second line of anti-bomber defence, but it doesn't really fit the bill, either.

There is now talk of a new class of old Russian-style interceptors built big, fast, for rapid climbing, and with less sophisticated but more powerful interceptor radar. Such a machine would cast aside the Hobgoblin's traits of stealth and agility and serve entirely as a visible sword with which to cut-down bombers. Project NT-7 is far from advanced as yet, but may provide this fighter at some point in the future.

(As to the Merlin, I really don't know how much they'd cost in Beddgelen production, but of course you can assume it's rather below the normal sale price.)

On the ground, MT-4 Hathi had previously been guarded quite jealously by the Soviet Commune, which once imagined the sixty-tonne monster tackling Hindustani forces in Korea and pitting its many layers of anti-missile defence against Hindustani ATGWs. These worrying thoughts are of course long forgotten, and it appears that the HDF would be able to acquire the tanks with their full range of systems, from Mirror laser self-defence weapons to JOS-VAPS aerosol and interception grenade system. The advanced computer that co-ordinates Hathi's defences means that the tank is probably a little more expensive than less well furnished foreign tanks, but combines with soft-kill systems and a massive weight of the third generation of Beddgelen composite armour to make probable the machine's superior survivability compared to any potential rivals. Crew protection has risen as a priority since the Principality days that counted soldiers' lives so cheaply.

The PAf. 8 design staff are quite happy about the positive reaction given to their design, and Bedgellen input is welcomed wholeheartedly.

The HDF initially intended to aquire Igovian weapons systems, but decided to pursue its own program, at least in this instance, in order to keep Parliamentary Aeronautics on its toes. Well, more or less...besides, it is not yet clear as to if the Igovians build their equipment to the same standards of ruggedness and tolerance to minimal (often non-existant) airfield facilities. After all, it is not an uncommon practice for front-line aircraft to operate from cordoned-off road sections and ruthelessly mowed grass stretches.

http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/Images/Gjavelin-2.jpg

The PAf. 8 is a delta design, with canard foreplanes providing low-speed stability and controllability. The first squadron to use the aircraft No. 2 Fighter Squadron, has recieved its fifteen examples already and will, in the near future, serve as a testing unit.

PAe has also been toying with the idea of assigning names to its designs. This might be tested on the PAp. 6, a turboprop-powered patrol aircraft that could be called the Sturgeon.

Hindustani armored units also prepare to recieve the Hathi. While resolute in the HDF's belief that ATGWs are ultimately more useful, as the HDF is concerned, than tanks, and that if ATGWs don't work there are enough rockets to do the job several times over, the aquisition of what might be characterised as quite an un-Hindustani tank can be taken as a grudging acknowledgement that this doctrine might need a little bit of contingency.

The Hathis will, in all likelihood, be deployed in the flatter states bordering the Igovian Commonwealth, instead of the mountainous, rugged border regions with China and Iran. Their focus will be repelling invasion by sea instead of invasion by land (deemed unlikely given the hostility and inhospitibility of routes into Hindustan). The HDF plans to aquire about 325 all in all.

Also, the HDF has put out a requirement for a heavy strike plane, "analogous to the Beaufighter and Brigand, possessing a respectable top speed, heavy armor protection, and large weapons capacity." The aircraft will probably become known as PAa. 4 Scimitar.

Hindustan Aeronautics Develops Jaguar F.2

In response to the requirements of Gilgit Autonomous District, HAe has developed the Jaguar F.2 light fighter. Intended as a cheap air defense aircraft capable of operating from very short strips and with minimal support facilities.

The Jaguar F.2 is essentially the same as the PAe Jaguar, but equipped with a pulse-doppler air search radar as opposed to the cheaper model, optimized for air-to-ground operations, that is employed on the Jaguar IS/IB Mk.2. The radar is similar to the Ferranti Blue Vixen, a type liscence-produced in Hindustan for some time. This enables the F.2 to carry BVR missiles in addition to the short-range IR AAMs typically fitted on the overwing pylons.

In other news, work on the PAa. 4 has been halted pending a review of the entire concept. There is not much entheusiasim for the aircraft, with many viewing it as unnecessary and an overly expensive aircraft. It is argued that resources allocated to PAa. 4 development and future production be redistributed to the SAf. 8 program and Jaguar construction, both deemed much more important applications.