NationStates Jolt Archive

The evolving war between the RWC (well, not technically) and the members of the Brimstone operation, has highlighted many differences of opinion regarding the relevance of technology and role-playing.

I have a problem with technology you see. When I am in a war roleplay and am confronted with a post similar to this (fictitious) post,



My F-111 fighters, with advanced RADAR coupled with my indigenous HULA system, flew into mach 7.8 (which incidentally puts it beyond the range of most SAMs). Then, able to simultaneously target 5 enemies (but also track a further 12) due to the PHART guidance and detection system, launched a volley of 2,000 missiles. Half of the missiles were MHARM 2.2 anti radar projectiles, able to detect radar emissions and also able to pursue moving radar emitting targets. The further thousand were advanced AAM of the OMFGZ variety, which contain anti blocking technology and computerised targeting system. Following this volley, the planes pulled into G26 and pulled their RADAR emissions in order to avoid detection.



What the hell? Who am I, a general with an honours degree in advanced military technology? Of course I'm not. I am a sixteen year old student, who doesn’t know an MHARM from a moustache. Should I spend my hours of free time reading about specifications and latest technology just so that I can 'win' a war? No, and I am not prepared to do so.

I firmly believe, that a war in writing is a war about people, emotions, pain and terror. Compassion is far more interesting to write about than numbers and makes, and though a tank or a plane might have character, we can't bombard people with numbers and statistics in the hope of cowering them into a corner. I am not going to throw my hands up and say, 'Yes, your knowledge of warfare is clearly superior to mine, please come and set fire to my worthless corpse.' If you have a plane, don't call it a MiG-46SU (and then list all of its specifications), call it a 'jet'. If you have a tank, call it a tank. The time really has come to call a spade a spade, and when we remove all of this worthless crap from our threads, then we can proceed with telling what is really important, the story. To give an example, here is a recent post of mine;

Seela paused, adrenaline making him aware of even the slightest movement. His breath froze in the air, spilling like smoke from his mouth. As he climbed the short steps to his aircraft, he looked again once more at the ship that he had lived in for a year, it may well be the last time he walked on solid metal. As he slung himself into his seat and his gloved hands, insulated against the bitter cold, found joystick and controls. Behind him, his trusted gunner waved to the assembled crowd of techies and grinning behind his pilots mask, he flicked the ignition switch. Instantly, the plane came to life and as he made the complicated technical actions that preceded a launch, he felt as always that sense of morbid anticipation that accompanied any combat mission.

It was the next moment that feelings were reserved for however, as the jet left the run way and the fear and anxiety disappeared beneath the inexorable sensation of freedom. He let out a soft cry of delight as the Carrier drew steadily further away, and over the crackled cine of the communications system the gunner answered in an exalted laugh. The nights sky was now polluted with a thousand false stars, the gleaming fire of the twin jet engines mixed into a great multitude of brightness. Customary checks and confirmations of unimaginative air arms rang throughout the cinetalk, and the vision of the pilot was suddenly transformed into a ghostly green, as the visual image of the landscape was replaced with a computer generated image of the surroundings. As he prepared his missiles, he checked his RADAR transmitters for signs of incoming bogeys, nothing yet, but they could not be ignorant of their presence.

Beneath the carpet of planes, all armed for a ready confrontation with the foe, the great battleships, protected by a wall of submarines, moved into striking distance of the shore.

You see? No numbers, no great technological detail, just pure story. Everybody can respond of that level, it removes the need for petty arguments about what a super-caviating torpedo can and cannot do, and it ultimately makes for a better read.

Again, these are but mere suggestions. However, I feel that if we can put such squabbling and posting of OMG techwanks behind us, and move onto a cleaner and brighter future for II.

Amen!

OOC: While I don't know a great deal about military technology, I leave that to the military-techie-geeks, I do know that types of weaponry can add character.

Before I start, I'd like to add that this isn't the best of my ability, it's simply an "example" RP post.

E.G

Kay'guul cowered in the grey light of the muddy, water logged trench, the slow *thud thud* of the Hind Gunship's rotors drilling into his skull, he held his AK74 to his chest, praying to the gods for salvation, sadly, the gods weren't listening.

Kay'guul's ears pricked up as they heard a hissing sound, he poked his head above the trench to see the Hind letting loose rocket-after-rocket into another section of trench. Kay'guul heard screams and yells before a deathly silence, the stench of scorched flesh began to waft into Kay'guul's section of trench, the poor soldier gagged before emptying his stomach into the muddy-water that lurked beneath the trench boards.

Kay'guul wiped his mouth and stuck his head over the trench again, he saw the Hind's carnivorous eyes pass over Kay'guul, he froze, his heart leapt into his throat and the last thing that escaped Kay'guul's throat was a short scream that ended abruptly as the trench exploded in a blossom of white light.

See, that is story but it has technical terms implemented, I admit that there is alot of tech wanking but I believe there still is a place for specifications in II.

EDIT: I'm Kriegorgrad, by the way!

My problem with technology is that it creates elitism, between those who have a passion for guns...and the rest of us.

Your above example is excellent, as it certainly names technology, but it dosn't expect the technology to speak for itself. The power is all in the writing.

Well, good post, but I rather think that a post should be a combination of pure roleplaying and writing, with some things like specifications and such added in. Or in other words, it should be a perfect blend of pure writing and some stats, something like this for example (although in an actual RP I would expect the post to be much longer and better, and excuse me for this short post):

Commander Bonrane smiled at one of the airmen from the cockpit of his Warcat fighter, as he constantly reminded himself of combat procedures just before he took off, noticing the sleek and massive cruise missiles on the metal racks, moving towards his aircraft. He looked over the distance as he noticed the massive Ragnarok battleship, its huge 20-inch guns sticking out from the strange-looking turrets. He counted, and soon found out that there are fifteen of them, sticking out like massive hammers of war, ready to strike with impunity. As all Omzian military personnels know, the battleship is the pride of the Omzian Navy. It would be a great shame if this massive floating hulk of metal hits the bottom of the ocean.

As he slowly taxiied his aircraft into the takeoff position, he could see the airmen getting his aircraft ready. Some of the young airmen desparately tried to fix the massive cruise missiles onto the hardpoints of his aircraft, while he could notice a helicopter taking off from an Albatross destroyer some distances away. This is combat, he thought. Even though this is his first combat tour, he may never be able to come back again. Never. Dying is a selfish act for a family man like him, but when he wears the G-Suit of the Omzian Naval Aviation Corps, dying means serving his country with absolute glory.

While I think that posting a lot of stats and show how their "OMG I DEFEAT U ALL" would just get very annoying, not posting numbers or some statistics at all would make the situation very confusing. Because of this, I can guarentee you that it will in many times lead to further conflict about how much losses each side take, since no one even know an approximate number.

For example, if I say that "a big carpet of tanks are coming towards your position and firing massive vollies of shells at you", how are you going to determine how much loss you are going to take, since you don't even know how many tanks are coming, aside from the fact that you don't even know how powerful the shells are! In this instance, although bragging about how capable your tanks are through the entire post can be very annoying, providing some numbers within the piece of writing can be actually very helpful for both sides, as it would get rid of confusion, and would at least allow the reader to actually know what is happening exactly.

For example, if I say that "a big carpet of tanks are coming towards your position and firing massive vollies of shells at you", how are you going to determine how much loss you are going to take, since you don't even know how many tanks are coming, aside from the fact that you don't even know how powerful the shells are! In this instance, although bragging about how capable your tanks are through the entire post can be very annoying, providing some numbers within the piece of writing can be actually very helpful for both sides, as it would get rid of confusion, and would at least allow the reader to actually know what is happening exactly.

Good point, and I admit that I have overlooked the importance of numbers in order to stress the power of writing. I am not suggesting that we completely abandon the use of number, for overwise our roleplays will become so vague and indecisive that nothing will ever be achieved. However, when numbers (which is another issue altogether) and technology replace real writing and roleplaying as serious contenders for achievment, it is a sad day for us all.

My problem with technology is that it creates elitism, between those who have a passion for guns...and the rest of us.

Your above example is excellent, as it certainly names technology, but it dosn't expect the technology to speak for itself. The power is all in the writing.

OOC: Yes, thank you, that was what I was trying to convey, writing can survive on it's own. Specs and stats cannot, you need writing to back up your stats, NS is about story, isn't it? I do have a complicated roster for my army and it DOES list the equipment but it also has some pictures, to help people have an image of my army.

A typical Kriegos soldier is one in Digital Urban camo, lugging an M16 about and being overburdened with loads of equipment, the stats are just fluff and while my navy may be quite in-depth, I just looked at the "World Security" website for the statistics.

My military thread is quite thorough but it's only there for RP purposes so I can have a good, solid base to fall back on, it also helps people know where my soldiers and regiments are.

Kriegorgrad's Military Statistics (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=368697)

I also have a characters thread which describes my characters their uses in RP, it can describe the roles one can expect them to take, emphasising that I do care about my characters as well as my soldiers.

Kriegos Characters Thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=371584)

And what Omz222 said was bang on, stats are needed sometimes and can help convey a character and can simply help you get an idea of what is going on.

Also, one last thing, a nation's military equipment helps convey the image of the military, because, sub-consciously, people will nine-times-out-of-ten assume that a nation that has a T-99 (or something) as their main battle tank will be a communistic one while a Challenger II as a standard tank conjures images of a small elite military like the British one.

I will refer to this in future RPing.

Yes...I like this.... :)

Nice job. I prefer stories that don't go into numbers and statistics...pure instinct and descriptions are better.

The evolving war between the RWC (well, not technically) and the members of the Brimstone operation, has highlighted many differences of opinion regarding the relevance of technology and role-playing.

I have a problem with technology you see. When I am in a war roleplay and am confronted with a post similar to this (fictitious) post,

What the hell? Who am I, a general with an honours degree in advanced military technology? Of course I'm not. I am a sixteen year old student, who doesn’t know an MHARM from a moustache. Should I spend my hours of free time reading about specifications and latest technology just so that I can 'win' a war? No, and I am not prepared to do so.

I firmly believe, that a war in writing is a war about people, emotions, pain and terror. Compassion is far more interesting to write about than numbers and makes, and though a tank or a plane might have character, we can't bombard people with numbers and statistics in the hope of cowering them into a corner. I am not going to throw my hands up and say, 'Yes, your knowledge of warfare is clearly superior to mine, please come and set fire to my worthless corpse.' If you have a plane, don't call it a MiG-46SU (and then list all of its specifications), call it a 'jet'. If you have a tank, call it a tank. The time really has come to call a spade a spade, and when we remove all of this worthless crap from our threads, then we can proceed with telling what is really important, the story. To give an example, here is a recent post of mine;

You see? No numbers, no great technological detail, just pure story. Everybody can respond of that level, it removes the need for petty arguments about what a super-caviating torpedo can and cannot do, and it ultimately makes for a better read.

Again, these are but mere suggestions. However, I feel that if we can put such squabbling and posting of OMG techwanks behind us, and move onto a cleaner and brighter future for II.

*High Fives You*

This is what I have been preaching for...yeah...almost two years now. Click the Civil War link in my sig for an example of how I do war.

War is about the people it effects and how they are effected. It is not about five tanks taking on twenty-six soldiers.

Something to think about is that in future tech wars, character roleplaying is far more common than in modern-tech conflicts. There aren't many future tech stat whores, yet in the modern-tech world (and mostly the II forums, I'm afraid) there is a whole lot of them. This is why I moved to future tech some time ago.

Characters and plot should tell the story...not numbers. RPing is an exercise in English class...not Math.

Kriegorgrad, everything that you have detailed adds to the story of your army. Character, identity, a sense of uniqueness. For this, I have no objection, in fact if I can dig out a picture of my first ever tank you'll see what I mean. However too many people, far too many, see technology as a means to 'winning' a war, not enjoying the experiencing of being part of a war.

*High Fives You*

This is what I have been preaching for...yeah...almost two years now. Click the Civil War link in my sig for an example of how I do war.

War is about the people it effects and how they are effected. It is not about five tanks taking on twenty-six soldiers.

Something to think about is that in future tech wars, character roleplaying is far more common than in modern-tech conflicts. There aren't many future tech stat whores, yet in the modern-tech world (and mostly the II forums, I'm afraid) there is a whole lot of them. This is why I moved to future tech some time ago.

Characters and plot should tell the story...not numbers. RPing is an exercise in English class...not Math.

*returns hand*

Wickid!

I hold a lot of respect for future tech, I even had a brief foray into it before I fell back into my old sinful ways.

*returns hand*

Wickid!

I hold a lot of respect for future tech, I even had a brief foray into it before I fell back into my old sinful ways.

I just see techology as another device for telling to story. My plotlines dictate what technology I have. If I need a certain thing to make a story work, I will have it. I don't write the story around the technology.

Such thinking has gotten me into just a high level of technology and such a "far-futuresque" time period that I cannot simply go around attacking nations. Simply RPing as my military would be godmodding to some. However, looking back on the RP's I've had in the past and those that are coming up...I hardly mind.

I try to strike a balance between technical stuff and RPing. I really only get technical to convey something. An explanation of why I can do something and get away with it, which I usually note in my design notes anyway, something special. So if you ignore it, your fault. :p

But I do place emphasis on RP more than tech specs.

I just see techology as another device for telling to story. My plotlines dictate what technology I have. If I need a certain thing to make a story work, I will have it. I don't write the story around the technology.

Such thinking has gotten me into just a high level of technology and such a "far-futuresque" time period that I cannot simply go around attacking nations. Simply RPing as my military would be godmodding to some. However, looking back on the RP's I've had in the past and those that are coming up...I hardly mind.

Characters, numbers, technology are all construsts for conveying the greater message of the roleplay. They are the means to an end, but far too many people see them as the end itself.

I try to strike a balance between technical stuff and RPing. I really only get technical to convey something. An explanation of why I can do something and get away with it, which I usually note in my design notes anyway, something special. So if you ignore it, your fault.

But I do place emphasis on RP more than tech specs.

I agree, to give an example during my first ever rp I was defending a city, and to signify my desperation I blew up street after street killing defender and attacker alike. Technology was a use, but the story remained the priority.

Kriegorgrad, everything that you have detailed adds to the story of your army. Character, identity, a sense of uniqueness. For this, I have no objection, in fact if I can dig out a picture of my first ever tank you'll see what I mean. However too many people, far too many, see technology as a means to 'winning' a war, not enjoying the experiencing of being part of a war.
OOC: Yes, exactly, I want it to be a basis for the story, thank you for your understanding Momanguise. I try to give my army a "rich, nigh corporate" feel and to add, I'd be very interested in seeing your first tank!



I just see techology as another device for telling to story. My plotlines dictate what technology I have. If I need a certain thing to make a story work, I will have it. I don't write the story around the technology.

I agree with this in a way but in a way I feel obliged to disagree, I base my Zakian space ships on Doom 3 plasma technology, especially the EnPro plasma stuff. I get all warm and fuzzy when I think of my EnPro reactor overheating, men screaming as plasma scorches vulnerable flesh! This is one of the few instances that has technology as a centrepoint for an RP.

I'm not saying you are a wrong but there are some examples that can have technology roughly dictating the plotline, simply because of the potentially excellent results.

E.G Overheating plasma reactor, screams, blood, chaos: a good space battle!

ooc: Actually, I think the tank's on my old computer, and that'll take at least three days to start up, but when I do you'll see what I mean.

In terms of your Doom 3 technology, it dosn't sound like that actually aids you, but adds character. A bit like the T-34's in my modern tech army. Is it useful? Not particularly. Is it intresting? Hell yes!

ooc: Actually, I think the tank's on my old computer, and that'll take at least three days to start up, but when I do you'll see what I mean.

In terms of your Doom 3 technology, it dosn't sound like that actually aids you, but adds character. A bit like the T-34's in my modern tech army. Is it useful? Not particularly. Is it intresting? Hell yes!

OOC: I can't wait for that tank!

The Doom 3 technology is heavily flawed but thats what I like about it, I want to have an arrogant captain overcharge his reactor, sending the ship hay-wire due to the lack of power. I love having chaotic space battles. By the way, the T-34's are an excellent example.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. You must understand, however, that what you propose requires imagination, something that unfortunatly most NSers, especially on II, have a complete lack of. This is where the tech/number wanking comes from, they make up in technicalities what they lack in creativity. Its a harsh truth, but a truth all the same.

Bravo... very good post and everyone involved seems to have the right idea.


Personally, I would mostly agree with Omz222's point, though I do find that people expecting me to know the difference between two different types of RPG which are labelled by number alone should give us a break.

I've been told in the past that if I simply used the term RPG without the exact spefication of the RPG used I may have my damage ignored. Now the best I can offer is "Anti-tank" RPG or similar and vaguely explain what I intent to do and the tool I intend to use.

I prefer the writing to take up the majority of the post, with the bare essential information incorperated into the story itself. Such information as where you are and what you have sent are important and should be included or noted in some manner... it shouldn't be the post on it's own. Further detail is then used to further clarify the post, though it's use is less important; for example what the things you have sent are equiped with. Such information is usually given in parts like noting how a soldier is leaning on his M16, or describing how they look (i.e the armour they are wearing.). Tanks could be described as being "the latest model" and have their model named. Stats for the specific weapons of the tank/soldiers should not be posted in the thread at all... if anything they are part of the thread they are being sold or described in for reference and they have a minor effect if any.

Technology is important... but everyone in NS starts off with the best equipement which they designed themselves. If you really think your technology is important then discuss it before the thread or we will assume a battletank is a battletank... I don't care about the specifics of it's armour unless it's cool looking in the post.

Ulimately, the story counts, the stats help. Not the otherway around.

Thanks for this thread.

you just like to play a diffrent kind of game

bout 90% of this game for me is designing weapons systems

the other 10% is reading about them in my own and other peoples RPs

Ditto. Why people have to obsessively say "OMFG my tech SO outdoes yours" and develop ever more bizarre (and most likely impossible) weaponry and throw it at those of us who're more interested in simply writing what amounts to a good war novella is quite beyond me. Sure, specs have their place, but not too much. Compare this:

Four hundred and fifty T-435 fighters sqitched on their OMG!!-M radars and tracked the incoming B-LOX fighters. They launched 820 AA-2710273 missiles at them, then turned off their radars and turned away at Mach 187.3. The missiles burned through the air, the enemy jammers unable to stop them thanks to their FFS-GIT LADAR and SMEGOFF automatic radar-fire-control-flight-control-anti-jamming-anti-laser-amnipotent-godlike-cat-soup-can-opener system and zoomed towards the useless, crappy enemy technology at mach 183,765,612, while the T-435s landed and the pilots got very drunk.

with this:

Colonel Potemkin waited with bated breath for his gunner/RO to actually say something, wondering what could be being displayed on the MFDs nestled behind his headplate. His breath emerged in long, shaky hisses, punctuated by occasionaly nervous swallows, as his eyes scanned the sky. Small warning that would give him. For all he knew, there was already a missile coming, seeking him out, screeching through the blue, cloudless skies around him to make him a corpse, and his wife a widow...

"Comrade," began Romanov, a confident note in his voice. "We have a total of sixty inbound aircraft, according to this contraption, small enough to be fighters. They're still quite a way away; probably nothing to worry about. We can engage when we feel like it. Range about 200 miles." A pause. "Looks like being a good scrap, eh?"

Potemkin rolled his eyes behind his tinted visor. "How the fuck can you be so damned calm?" he asked, exasperated. "We're outgunned ten to one up here!"

"Comrade colonel," drawled Romanov in his typical laconic manner, "in our profession, it pays not to think about the odds against us. Would you not agree?"

"Indeed, comrade. I just hope you can explain that to them when they're surrounding us." He advanced the MiG's throttle slightly as Romanov's quiet laugh sounded in his ears, and pressed his transmit toggle.

"Boris Regiment, close up. Standard pattern Double Delta. Form up, boys, we've got a fight coming." Romanov turned off and listened to the "roger"s come in.

How many of us will make it back?

The shining blue skies were being cut, with neat surgical precision, by the roaring D-F6M turbofans of the MiGs. A swathe of condensation streamed out behind them, the sun shining from their reinforced alloy and composite skins in that wonderfully clear morning light, as they hurtled towards their destiny, R-37B1 missiles hanging beneath their flat underbellies, like spit in a Cobra's mouth, just waiting for the command of their bearer.

Way to go dude! Very well said. Exactly, the story counts, not the specs. I'm glad someone brought this up.

Specs add as a directive for the story. There was something absolutely horrifying about US shells "bouncing off" German tanks in WW2, just as a sniper with a rifle actually able to hit the target "through the brick wall his target had his back to" adds something.

But in the end, it is the tale told, not the numbers that appear. Those in a bracket are assumed (by me) to be roughly equivalent, with some improvements and some lacks.

This is why reading about "30 meter equivalent armor" and other "OMFG!" technology leaves me cold; but incorporate how the new armor a tank has changes the variable of war...


Corporal Watts saw the flash of the muzzle through the scope; there was just enough time to scream before...

The tank was shoved ungently to one side, a thudding rippling through the innards of each member.

"Track left, FIRE!" called the commander.

They weren't dead?!? Shock and confusion ran through the young driver, even as the KWOOMF of their main gun and another, much larger, flash came through his scope.

"Good god, Watts. Next time, go before we get out here."

Hmm, let's see. This old argument again.

It's about preference, people. Some people like to roleplay about emotions and people and ignore the specifics. Some people like to write specifically. Some people write like Asimov. Some people write like Tom Clancy. Is one style of writing better than another? No, and you can't make me agree that it is so.

Of course, nationstates roleplay is not necessarily about writing as in writing novels. It's not really about characters. It's about entire freaking nations and the complex, unpredictable interactions of them.

Are you saying that on the level of NationStates, numbers are unimportant and ignored and don't factor into the thoughts, actions and dialogue of politicians? Or, in the case of war, generals and soldiers?

Are you saying no one in wartime thinks, acts or speaks of numbers, positions, that logistics don't get into it? Or do you just say, writing about logisticians in wartime is dumb, and we should only write about the people for whom numbers in the grand scale don't matter a bit?

I agree with Omz and other common sense views that naturally no one likes to be bombarded with rows of statistics and nothing else. I also think it's naive to think war is about english skills and math should just be tossed aside, because there don't exist number-keys on our keyboards and our brains can't handle knowing the quantity of anything.

This is a macro-level game, people. Politics, diplomacy, war, on the level of gigantic nations and sprawling, entangling alliances. It doesn't get much more macro. If you're RPing just a soldier in a squad of 8 you may *gasp* just very well care a great deal if you're fighting 2 or 10 tanks. If you're unwilling to acknowledge all that or simple things like different kinds of tanks have different names and capabilities maybe you should stay away from roleplaying on that level.

A war in history was never won because one side's story was written better than the other.

A war in history was never won because one side's story was written better than the other.

That line is perhaps one of the most brilliant I have read in a while. May I quote you on that?

That line is perhaps one of the most brilliant I have read in a while. May I quote you on that?

Sure. You just did! ;)

Ya, good work on this Momanguise. I agree. Although, I do say that for a war RP, it can't just be about writing, but it should mainly be.

Santa I agree with you there. But when the post is only about specs, or haf or even 2/3 of the post is about specs, there is a problem.

Unless the post is specifically about specs :p

Santa I agree with you there. But when the post is only about specs, or haf or even 2/3 of the post is about specs, there is a problem.

Unless the post is specifically about specs :p

Agreed! And I was gonna make that last comment if you had not, too. Sometimes you have to clarify what is where and numbers and lists work better for that sometimes.

This topic has actually highlighted the reason I went future tech, as I can make my own technology and need be only specific enough with the details for a person to just understand what it is trying to accomplish. If you can understand what I am trying to do, then my job is accomplished.

What I usually do is write the story first (as you said one person out of whatever) and then at the end post actual numbers or anything I think you need to know (like the main gun is 150mm not 120 or what not).

Hmm. I like to do likewise, story and then footnotes.

Hmm, let's see. This old argument again.

It's about preference, people. Some people like to roleplay about emotions and people and ignore the specifics. Some people like to write specifically. Some people write like Asimov. Some people write like Tom Clancy. Is one style of writing better than another? No, and you can't make me agree that it is so.

I disagree with this point. Writing like Tom Clancy is purely elitist, I am doing five A levels and do not have the time or the inclination to pursue reams of text regarding kinetic rounds or the latest version of explosive reactive armour. Anyone can write about feelings, because we experience them everyday, but only four or five people here can write with the knowlage of a Lockheed director.

Of course, nationstates roleplay is not necessarily about writing as in writing novels. It's not really about characters. It's about entire freaking nations and the complex, unpredictable interactions of them.

Yet the highlight, for many nations (including myself) is a decent war rp. Should I (and 90%) of the community have to throw our hands up in surrender to the person who knows the maximum altitude of a B52 bomber? Of course not. Writing about emotion and human suffering not only avoids techie arguments, it reads better and it makes it accesable to everyone.

Are you saying that on the level of NationStates, numbers are unimportant and ignored and don't factor into the thoughts, actions and dialogue of politicians? Or, in the case of war, generals and soldiers?

No.

Are you saying no one in wartime thinks, acts or speaks of numbers, positions, that logistics don't get into it? Or do you just say, writing about logisticians in wartime is dumb, and we should only write about the people for whom numbers in the grand scale don't matter a bit?

No, and I will elaborate. NS is about Roleplay, and so logically it is also about story. A story which relies on numbers and logistics instead of creative writing is a crap story. Logistics, numbers, armour values etc. are all constructs which help you tell the story, but they cannot replace the idea of a narrative and creative structure. This is in essense what this thread is all about.

I agree with Omz and other common sense views that naturally no one likes to be bombarded with rows of statistics and nothing else. I also think it's naive to think war is about english skills and math should just be tossed aside, because there don't exist number-keys on our keyboards and our brains can't handle knowing the quantity of anything.

No-one has said that numbers and logistics should not come into a roleplay (infact, on the first page I acknologed that my first post was a bit biased), but the argument purputrated by myself (and many others) is that math (maths for us brits) has in several occasions replaced the english, which is when all things are considered, poor form.

This is a macro-level game, people. Politics, diplomacy, war, on the level of gigantic nations and sprawling, entangling alliances. It doesn't get much more macro. If you're RPing just a soldier in a squad of 8 you may *gasp* just very well care a great deal if you're fighting 2 or 10 tanks. If you're unwilling to acknowledge all that or simple things like different kinds of tanks have different names and capabilities maybe you should stay away from roleplaying on that level.

And prehaps you should take the time and effort to read the whole thread and come up with a decent understanding before dealing out cheap insults. So I am a soldier facing a tank, am I going to think 'My rifle has no chance of penertrating the 9000 inch armour, the logical thing to do at this time is call in the MiG fighter sqaudron with tank busting missiles, and this will give me a 56% survival rate'? Of course I am not. My responce would be based on emotion, on courage and on cowadice, because all story is about human feelings, and when you take human feelings out of a roleplay then it is a sad day for us all.


A war in history was never won because one side's story was written better than the other.

Actually I disagree with this point. The winter war (1940) was in reality a defeat for the Fins. However, history has raised it into something of a defeat for the Russians, writing wins a war. Also, wars are only remembered because men write books about them, and the books that get read are writen with a narrative and not numbers.

You have made your entire post with an air of agression and arrogance, and if you care to reply then I ask you to reconsider your tone.

I have to agree with Santa Barbara in that no style of writing is better than another. I enjoy a good roleplay with a large amount of statistics thrown in. I do like to know about the inner details, whether it be in FT or MT or whatever. It has a lot to do with me being in the Military for a time and I like to include what each weapon's specs are. I also do no consider writing like Tom Clancy deliberately Elitist. It's obvious that specifications are an important part of his story- if that's not your beef, don't read it. Why don't you investigate the subject matter a little and find that you don't like the novel's "Meat" before buying or committing a large amount of time to one of his novels? . Blaming a writer for their efforts when you have No idea what the novel is about because you don't have expierience in that are is pointless. It's fairly obvious that the author wrote the novel how they wanted to write, not to cater to people like Mormanguise who don't have the time nor intrest in understanding the context.

Don't get me wrong - it's perfectly fine to not wish to get into the techincal specifications, for whatever - but some people do and they write those novels because they choose too. If that is how they right, you are being Elitist yourself for attacking what some writers might actually enjoy writing, when they have no obligation to cater to a certain audience. If you like it, you'll read it. If you don't, you won't.

However, being a half decent RPer, It's important that you include more than specifications. Aside from the evocative images that a central part of Roleplay which Mormangouise and others have outlined- is extremly important in Roleplay. I belive in Roleplay the rules change somewhat. In Writing, you are giving a novel you have written, probably for yourself, to the public. It's yours - why should you adapt it? If it's full of technical specifications, so be it. I don't see writing in a way that you want to write as Elitist.

In RPing, the rules change. You involve another person in the "Game". It takes two (or more) to tango, to quote the phrase. Therefore, you have another part to your roleplay. Therefore, as other people are relying on what you write, I think it's courteous and respectful to give a good idea of what your weaponry can do through descriptions that carry the emotions of the story you are trying to show.

Ie "The Uranium Tipped, 5.56 Rounds, fresh from the barrel of the M -16 tore through the body armour of the police with ease, rending their armour apart as if it was rice paper. The Bullets continued their flight, tearing into the next line, leaving only the blood splattered, mutlilated bodies of New Yorks finest on the ground."

Therefore, we have the important techincal details (Of which I would add more, but I am tired) and the imagery.

As for Numbers, well that is essenital. Lets face it, Numbers are important in a war. THere is no possible way a 100 million nation could beat the full strength of a 800 million nation, for instance. Numbers count.

Momanguise:

Santa Barbara is not saying that one has to be Lockheed director in order to participate in roleplays. But, I believe what he is saying is that a grasp of the fundementals would certainly be helpful. Otherwise, if taken to the extreme, some 10 million pop nation can beat mine because that person is a better storyteller.

The telling of the story is important, yes. The numbers have their place, I believe, in the background – preferably in the OOC thread. But, I think it is a mistake to casually disregard the importance of the numbers for the sake of the story. Why not try to incorporate both here? I believe that numbers (either through the UN rankings, GDP calculators, etc…) can be used to form a foundation for a story.

meh

to each his own I guess

Excellent work generally but I feel there are other issues highlighted by the current RWC (pretty much now just not offically) and the Brimstone crowd war has also shown a few things to me:

People don't tend to take into account terrain when fighting a campaign. Thus I suggust persons at all time have a general terrain map of said country to understand it better thus can give a better idea of what troops are going where etc.

Tech and Stat wanking are common among both the crowds involved, but this is common to most large scope RPing environments/RP's i've been in. It's quite hard to character RP with a huge war going on around them if you will. It's better in my opinion (note: my opinion) to character RP your commanders making decisions, other than X grunt on the ground. Due to the sheer scale of matters, e.g. in the potential Guff. campaign we are talking millions of troops on either side. Thus I suggust a military strategy approach (pretty simple RPing) combined with a character RP happening around to make it quite readable. This was sort of suggusted before, but I'm just clarifying it.

Economics: I know the vast majority will have a sketchy at best in the ideals of economics, but please if your unsure as to the viability of your forces economically do a basic check... (i.e. the amount you think you would spend on each trooper per year in everything they want/need multiplied by the amount of troops (inc. logistics) give you a nice average). Also, remeber war is a hugely expensive business and just because your economy is uber rich etc, it's going to be hard to sustain such a war especially a long and widespread one.

In short the most common economic statments i've seen by NS players are:

A) I haven't spent anything for X years, thus I can afford it. (Yes you have, it's called maintenance and ongoing projects, if you've stated your saving up thats fine but you can't magic X trillion/billion USD out of the air)

B) I have a 20-40% mil. budget, thus I can afford anything. (See CSJ's treatise about economics and budgets but it's pretty obvious it's not possible without a total war effort going on and that can only be sustained temp. and not long term).

Thats a slight moan, I know but some people need to review their current assets in my opinion and no this is general and not focused on certain individuals, so please this is not meant to be offensive only informative. Thanks.

A war in history was never won because one side's story was written better than the other.

That would be because no war in history was ever fought as a freeform roleplay, y'know.

IMAO, the role of numbers is to add to the story for wankers like myself who like to hear about how big and scary the big scary tank is. Meaning if you don't care about that sort of thing you can just deploy a Big Scary Tank with an OOC note that 'It is big and scary' and get the same effect. Same really goes for a Big Scary Army or Big Scary Invasion Force.

I have obergear weapons (that i have designed over the last 2 years), when i join an RP i direct the other players to the tech spec pages... I then totally ignore my own tech (and everyone elses) and assume that we are all on about the same level (or decide who is stronger first). The sole reason to maintain the ubergear stuff is so that when i run into people who try to throw numbers i have something (hopefully better :-) ) to throw back at them.

Finally to TMG it is possible to have 40% of your budget go to the military, as long as everyone agrees to use the thirdgeek site then it is more accurate for your nation. For example my nation has been a going concern for 2 years 12 days now... i have always answered every issue possible to be pro military and then pro business/income. Thus my GDP is around 400 Trillion USD according to thirdgeek and i spend about 48% of my budget (2% tax) on military stuff... i have never had a problem from others with this, unless they are trying to uberwank or godmod themselves anyway.

PS when developing my ubergear tech i just asked friends at uni to help and we would spit something reasonably accurate out over lunch. This cant be too hard for the rest of you...

PPS join World@War (http://s6.invisionfree.com/theworldatwar) :-)

PS when developing my ubergear tech i just asked friends at uni to help and we would spit something reasonably accurate out over lunch. This cant be too hard for the rest of you...

Most often it's a matter of genuine lack of interest rather than difficulty. Some people just don't like designing weapons.

Most often it's a matter of genuine lack of interest rather than difficulty. Some people just don't like designing weapons.

Agreed.

I'm not a 'weapons man' but I created my own brand of weapons by simply thinking up some novel concepts for weapons like Acidic Claymores etc. The point is anyone can do it, but if you don't like just copy MT weaponry from the Real world and use that. It's just as effective as the ubertech people come up with on here...

That would be because no war in history was ever fought as a freeform roleplay, y'know.


OOC: Leaving aside your second paragraph, and to turn this on your head a bit, one could say that quite a few amazing stories came out of both world wars (or really any war for that matter) despite them being in a "real life" setting. I finised watching Saving Private Ryan and in one scene, the Capt and his guys were darn worried about taking out a German machine gun nest. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a great story can still be written even if everyone knows and understands what a heavy machine gun behind some sandbags can do to some guys charging it. In other words, I think what sometimes does happen is that for "the sake of the story" logic and reason get thrown out the window. But, well, that's just my opinion.

Agreed, but as often as not, knowledge of technologies simply degenerates into a game of one-upmanship, with fictitious munitions and exaggerated claims for them being bandied about and rather a lot of irritation coming about as a result. We've all been there in RPs which have been:

"Air raid with X bombers comes in at Y vector."

"You can't do that, I have 1,000,000 patriot batteries there!"

"The aircraft detect the radars and avoid the SAMs, launching missiles at long range."

"I send by 1,000 überfighters of doom against your bombers. They shoot loads of missiles at a ridiculous range."

"I do this that and the other..."

*Descend to techawnking and OOC arguments about unproven machines that don't exist.*

I think the difference between what Vrak's talking about and what goes wank is that while we know of the capabilities of the machine gun nest, we aren't treated to two paragraphs of technical description of flanges and hinged plates each time the thing reloads.

IMAO, the role of numbers is to add to the story for wankers like myself who like to hear about how big and scary the big scary tank is. Meaning if you don't care about that sort of thing you can just deploy a Big Scary Tank with an OOC note that 'It is big and scary' and get the same effect. Same really goes for a Big Scary Army or Big Scary Invasion Force.

Right, but "a bunch of tanks" is kinda harder to deal with than a specific number and type and location of tanks. At least if you're into writing clearly. Maybe I'm just unimaginative.

"Number of enemy tanks sighted?"

"A bunch, sir."

"You didn't bother to count?"

"The other roleplayer doesn't like mentioning how many tanks he's got. But they're scary."

No, it's not.

'A large tank force has been sighted on the other side of town.'

It's not really necessary to know exactly how many; if you're into that shit you already know how about many qualifies as a 'large' tank force and can react accordingly. If you don't, no matter. If your opponent says exactly how many, yay, if he says every last detail about them down to how many buttons are on each tank commander's jacket, he's going into a lil' much detail there.

No, it's not.

'A large tank force has been sighted on the other side of town.'

It's not really necessary to know exactly how many;

I'm not saying it really makes a difference between 41 and 40, but it irks going into wars that are NOT fully planned out and plotted and agreed upon as to all endings and contingencies, and having to make arbitrations based on who thinks whose writing is more interesting or some other vague thing that has nothing to do with how wars would be decided IC.

Like, Saving Private Ryan. The guy in the watchtower doesn't tell the Captain there are a bunch of scary tanks and evil German men. He gives his best estimates based on what he can see. Number and type of tank, 50 plus change infantry, not "a big force."

Like, Saving Private Ryan. The guy in the watchtower doesn't tell the Captain there are a bunch of scary tanks and evil German men. He gives his best estimates based on what he can see. Number and type of tank, 50 plus change infantry, not "a big force."

This is because said guy is supposed to be a professional soldier with a large course of training behind him and additional combat experience [and because Spielberg had military advisors on-hand to help with dialogue]. A lot of our roleplayers are civilians and haven't studied [or don't want to study] enough material to know how many tanks is reasonable to deploy into a town, so for them saying 'a big force' or 'a small unit' is fair enough. If the other player does know how many 'a big force' or 'a small force' is and cares enough to need exact numbers they can use telegrams, PMs, OOC threads or IRC / instant messager to sort something out with the other guy as to numbers.

This is because said guy is supposed to be a professional soldier with a large course of training behind him and additional combat experience [and because Spielberg had military advisors on-hand to help with dialogue]. A lot of our roleplayers are civilians and haven't studied [or don't want to study] enough material to know how many tanks is reasonable to deploy into a town, so for them saying 'a big force' or 'a small unit' is fair enough. If the other player does know how many 'a big force' or 'a small force' is and cares enough to need exact numbers they can use telegrams, PMs, OOC threads or IRC / instant messager to sort something out with the other guy as to numbers.

I think it's a cop-out to say, I don't have military advisors and I'm a civilian so I can't be arsed to look into what I'm roleplaying about. I'm no professional soldier myself, but even if I was just say mimicking Hollywood (which no one around here does! hah!) I'd still do better than "big forces" and such.

But yes, those things probably go on OOC threads or IRC... but there's a lot to be said for a handy link or sub-post right there on the thread where all people can see, especially if not everyone can get on IRC and multiple TGs/PMs becomes slow and frustrating and inefficient.

I think it's a cop-out to say, I don't have military advisors and I'm a civilian so I can't be arsed to look into what I'm roleplaying about. I'm no professional soldier myself, but even if I was just say mimicking Hollywood (which no one around here does! hah!) I'd still do better than "big forces" and such.

Realistically it's a matter of two things:

[1] Whether the player finds the subject interesting enough to justify studying for it [because when the game becomes a chore you start wondering why you're playing it].

[2] see above.

Realistically it's a matter of two things:

[1] Whether the player finds the subject interesting enough to justify studying for it [because when the game becomes a chore you start wondering why you're playing it].

[2] see above.

=), nice logic.

My complaint is this, I know a good deal about politics and statesmanship, and the diplomatic actions of war, but little about what a kenetic round can do to 9000 inch armour. I am a creative writer, and enemy at the gates (the book, not the film) is a narrative book that portrays war perfectly, but does not require great military knowledge. Why can't NS be the same?

Best thing for tech people to do would be to have links in their posts or sig for other tech people to look at. So you could write...


"Taking fire, left flank! Need some more ammo, now!"

The corporal was shaking as he fired the light machine gun, both from the recoil and from the fear. He looked over to the feeding belt of his weapon, the stock of caseless rounds rapidly dwindling as it continued to gobble them up and belch fire. The gun clicked empty, and he called for ammunition again over the squad network. He sat there behind the stone and watched a squadmate pound away with a M-32 Assault Rifle before it jammed and the man cursed at the futuristic looking contraption.

Then the corporal remembered the other gunner in the squad was down. He glanced quickly around the dark landscape, his night vision goggles helping a bit as he ran towards the body and threw himself down next to it. He ignored the wound, the man was clearly dead- a rifle round through the body armor. After a few long seconds of fighting the harnesses, he grabbed the ammunition and dashed back to his position, a sniper's round kicking up dirt as he went.

It was then he felt the rumble. He did a quick check to figure out where it was coming from, and whooped in joy. The huge slabs of angluar armor shone in the muzzle flash of the coaxial cannon. They were KAF90Fs, he remembered, but that wasn't important. To him it mattered they were there. The lead tank roared as it fired a round of anti-infantry flechettes into the enemy positions. But the battle was met. Anti-tank missiles light up the night, sonic booms and explosions filling the streets as the defense systems of the tanks attempted to pick them off.
OOC:
Reference threads for tech:
Blah
Blah
Blah


Similar to how glossaries are put in technothrillers, so people who care about tech can go check them.

Good idea, I'll put that in my first post with your permission.

Hey, no problem. But a lot of other players do it... I should probably start doing it too :P

My complaint is this, I know a good deal about politics and statesmanship, and the diplomatic actions of war, but little about what a kenetic round can do to 9000 inch armour. I am a creative writer, and enemy at the gates (the book, not the film) is a narrative book that portrays war perfectly, but does not require great military knowledge. Why can't NS be the same?

Because books are written by one individual. There is nothing to settle, no conflict that is uncertain. In NS even in the best of times, you can't decide everything out beforehand. There needs to be a way of arbitration, and I simply disagree with the idea that that method be based on say, english skills alone. Or stats alone.

I have never suggested that writing becomes the only element in telling a story, only that it should be the most important one.

People don't tend to take into account terrain when fighting a campaign. Thus I suggust persons at all time have a general terrain map of said country to understand it better thus can give a better idea of what troops are going where etc.


This is very true. In fact, what seems even more overlooked is that NS doesn't take terrain into account. That's why people who joined up two years ago or whatever have obscene populations, which if you want to take to any level of realism would completely depend on their geography. Try fitting 4 billion people in the British Isles; you'd have more luck getting them into a mini.

Unfortunately, then people will complain that they shouldn't need a Geography A-Level to RP war, and they've got a good point. I guess the only universal solution is a very generic one: just make sure everyone you RP with is okay with how you do it.

I think the thoery goes that the NS british isles is about a billion times bigger than the actual british isles.

I guess the only universal solution is a very generic one: just make sure everyone you RP with is okay with how you do it.

Is there really any other way to do things? I think not. Of course not everyone is going to agree with how people do things. It's just human nature. Some people prefer having loads of technological information in their posts. That drives others crazy. Some people like to write huge intricate storylines, while others prefer doing simple, straightforward wars. Again, it's all NS, it's all fun. T

hat's just what it is. Fun. NS is supposed to be entertaining, and everyone gets their kicks out of it in different ways. I think it's high time we all start accepting that not everyone here likes to play the game the way we do, and that it's perfectly fine for them to play it however the hell they want to. We're all here, and I think life would go alot smoother if we all gave each other the space to do things their way.

Well what about those poor people out there who cant handle a 14way confrence where everyone is trying to get everything they want and nothing their "enemy" wants, placing stuff on the table soley to trade it away later to cancel out someone elses real wants...

Or the real converse to what you are saying... people who know tactics/strategy, geography and how to use it, their own tech and an idea of other peoples tech but have no idea about writing about emotions or individual stories... I cant write that sort of stuff and have it look good, i cant even make dialog look good... i can do the battle plans well (IMO) so i generally never bother trying to put the rest of that "crap" in it anymore...

Well what about those poor people out there who cant handle a 14way confrence where everyone is trying to get everything they want and nothing their "enemy" wants, placing stuff on the table soley to trade it away later to cancel out someone elses real wants...

Or the real converse to what you are saying... people who know tactics/strategy, geography and how to use it, their own tech and an idea of other peoples tech but have no idea about writing about emotions or individual stories... I cant write that sort of stuff and have it look good, i cant even make dialog look good... i can do the battle plans well (IMO) so i generally never bother trying to put the rest of that "crap" in it anymore...

Both sets - you roleplay with someone, you discuss, you talk, you get good stuff out.

You're a wanker and a pain - you get garbage.

Generally speaking, I just have a basic force disposition during every RP (I.e; a massive fleet of over 800 ships, two squads of SpecOps, etc.). Numberwanking always kinda pissed me off.

Also, technology CAN be a good way to add to the substance of a RP. Lookie here:


[The Air War]

The sudden mobilization of Belemese fighters did not surprise the Seraph pilots; after all, they were trained to react to every situation, every contingency, with the composure and skill that they acquired during flight school. As a result, the five air wings of TSF-28Bs swiftly responded to the hundreds of blips that dotted their AN-TSPQ Mk 16 Mod 10 RADAR screens.

"FUCK!" screamed a pilot as his bistatic arrays detected the incredible number of LRAAMs that were headed for his direction. Since the Tyrandisan pilots knew that the incoming Scorpion missiles used RADAR guidance, the TSF-28s activated their medium-range jammers to hopefully scramble and thus force the munitions to miss. Furthermore, each of the Seraphs dropped chaff, to thus divert the attentions of the Belemese missiles. Since the oncoming Scorpions were coming in at Mach 7, their IR sensors would be rendered useless by the intense heat friction.

All the while these counter-measures were being made, the TSF-28s quickly reacted to the arrival of the Vampires. At 70 kilometers, two Kestrel XMRAAMs were fired at each of the oncoming Belemese fighters, their payloads screaming through the skies at a speed of Mach 4.5 as the intricate Active RADAR system mounted on the Kestrels guided the deadly munitions to their prey, the Belemese fighters. Once they reached within range, the LIDAR seeker section engaged and drove the missiles into the steel bodies of their targets.

"Phoenix-One-One to all wings, report in!" shouted the lead flyer, a Captain Kenneth T. Wexley as he swerved to avoid the morass of Vampire-launched LRAAMs. His chaff pods had fortunately confused the missiles that were designated to down him, but others were not quite as lucky.

"Hawk Wing reporting in, Two-Two and Two-Three are down,"
"Jackknife reporting, we've lost six!"

The radio chatter continued on, as Wexley made a quick count of downed Seraphs. Adding the numbers in his sharp mind, he realized that some twenty two flyers would not be coming home.

"God damnit." cursed the Captain under his breath. As according to tradition, he, the commanding officer, would have the unpleasant task of writing the letters to the bereaved. But first, Wexley had to lead his Seraphs to victory over the heathens of Belem. He glanced at his RADAR display, to see how many Vampires remained before the dogfights in the Zarbian airspace began. Instinctively, the Captain's fingers slid to the gun triggers as he urged his bird to Mach 2.8. The TSF-28D Special Issue variant fighter that he was flying did not disappoint as its massive twin TC-250-PW-60 pulse-detonation hybrid engines propelled the Seraph and Wexley with it into the void of annihilation.

There would be many more deaths today as Seraph and Vampire grappled with one another in the bloodstained skies. Streaks of XMRAAMs and 27mm cannon fire set the very atmosphere alight in a wave of flame, all the while as the Tyrandisan pilots engaged in a monumental aerial showdown with the planes of Belem.

"Burn in hell!" screamed Captain Wexley as his 27mm Mauser blasted apart a Vampire, scattering the body of its pilot into the stratosphere. Not satisfied with his kill, he turned his attention to the fallen Belemese fighter's wingman. He watched with macabre glee as a Kite XSRAAM flared out from his wingtip pylon mount and hit the unlucky Vampire, sending the bird into a spiral of doom before it finally went down over the calm seas of the Atlantic. Like a man possessed, he flung his Seraph across the field of war, bringing death to all those unfortunate enough to cross his path, just as the other TSF-28s engaged in the sector followed his lead, guns and missiles cutting a swath of destruction into the Belemese formations.

This was a post I made in the Zarbia war thread. See, by adding on a bit of feasible technology, it makes my writing a better read.

However, there is a fine line when tech stops helping RPs and ends up being a tool for wanking and godmodding. i.e; undetectable ships, missiles with ridiculous ranges, radars that can burn through stealth at thousands of km off, etc.

It is simple.
If you are fairly proficient at writtings stories you will have more story based RPs--of course the more you do it the better you get--as with all things.
SO if you are bad at story RPs, you should indeed do it more, not less.

Now to that end, if you have no idea about military operations and tactics and strategies, then dont waste the time of the people who do--by telling stories. IF you are a good writter then you know to write what you know.
Anyone with any REAL grasp of the military would read your flowery dribble and say---that isnt how it is.
SO to that end you should attempt to use more realistic numbers and specifications.

It comes down to, one group of military techies who dont want to get "Artsy"
And a groups of hemmingways who dont want to research.
No writter has written anything worth a piss without research and emotion.
The two are married in all good works.
SO if you fancy yourself an Author and not Fighter then ask the fighters and go Globalsecurity.com and FAS.com to read up a little bit--does a Colonel lead a battalion or Brigadier General? Thoise sites will tell you, and give your RP substance and depth.

If you fancy yourself a techie--watch the Thin Red Line, Band of Brothers, Full MEtal Jacket, and Apocalypse Now, so you can see dialogue on the war side--I like the older ones-A bridge too Far, All quiet of the Western Front, yaddayddayadda--

Neither side of this discussion is better then the other, both are really required to have a good RPer.
Just my two cents, take for it what it is.

Is there really any other way to do things? I think not. Of course not everyone is going to agree with how people do things. It's just human nature. Some people prefer having loads of technological information in their posts. That drives others crazy. Some people like to write huge intricate storylines, while others prefer doing simple, straightforward wars. Again, it's all NS, it's all fun.

That's just what it is. Fun. NS is supposed to be entertaining, and everyone gets their kicks out of it in different ways. I think it's high time we all start accepting that not everyone here likes to play the game the way we do, and that it's perfectly fine for them to play it however the hell they want to. We're all here, and I think life would go alot smoother if we all gave each other the space to do things their way.

Or in short: Chill out guys! :)


I think the thoery goes that the NS british isles is about a billion times bigger than the actual british isles.

Yeah, but that's the problem. In NS, your country is just 'as big as you need it to be'. Arkonia isn't a big country (I created it a long time ago in an epic 6-month long multiplayer Civ II game some years ago so it has a very defined character). In Civ it maintained a lot of power despite the fact it was a pretty small population. I basically RP *that* Arkonia, as opposed to the simplified one on NS itself.
So basically when it someday supersedes 200 million or so I will ignore it. Why? Because it's out of character, and I value RP over stats. I don't think everyone should conform to those priorities though. :cool: