NationStates Jolt Archive

Hey Everybody,

***Spoilers for Ace Combat 5***


I just got Ace Combat 5: The Unsung War almost a week ago. In the game the bad guys deploy two submarines called the Scinfaxi and the Hrimfaxi. Now these subs are amazing, they are "...submersible attack carriers."

Now I immediately remembered the Japanese attempt to deploy this type of sub (http://www.pacerfarm.org/i-400/) to destroy the Panama Canal. These boats failed utterly and were long ago forgotten. I had never considered the idea until I played AC 5. And I started kicking the idea around.

Obviously, these subs would solve a standing problem with naval operational doctrine...

+the vulnerability of carriers to cruise missiles (These things if used right can a kill a multi-billion dollar CV in no time at all.)

+and given enough time, get off a hostile shore and have attack aircraft come out of nowhere. (Shades of Pearl Harbor.)
But immediately I began to think of the many and painful obstacles to this idea.

+Size (The word big isn't big enough.)

+Stealth (There is no way something larger than a Typhoon-class is going to be quiet.)

+Speed (This thing has got to be slow, unless using magneto hydrodynamic engines, ties in with above problem. Gotta be nuclear powered, otherwise, this thing is going to be wedded to a tender.)

+Aircraft Carrying ability (To carry any aircraft at all is a problem, meaning the only planes that would be feasible would be VTOL or UCAVs)

+Cost, this thing would brake the banks of all but the largest nations.

Now, given the liberties we can take with reality in NationStates, I figured I could enlist the shipbuilding knowledge of other nations.

What do you think?

Hey! I need so help with the design on this thing.

In theory, it's a good idea. However to start a program to develop this would be immensely expensive, in my opinon. In fact, let me qualify that not being a naval engineer I can't speak in terms of professional opinion, it's all amateurish, but still I hope somewhat educated.

The thing with carrier group supremacy, the Soviets back in their heyday (sp?) had an interesting idea. Lamentably I am not too too familiar with the details of it, but later with more time I will look into it. The Soviet Oscar class submarine was designed purposely to deal with carrier groups by carrying... I think around a dozen or so long range anti-ship missiles. My point in bringing this up that it already is an example of a submarine designed to contend with the CBG. Of course, we thankfully never fought the Soviets and never had to deal with an Oscar going up against a Nimitz or the Enterprise or what have you, because it would be an interesting matchup in my opinion. The pre-existing idea means though, that it would be cheaper to follow an idea that already exists as compared to radically new and different designs. I'm also quite sure that if you go looking people already have Oscars and such things floating around in their NS submarine pens.

Now to deal with more of the points of contention, per size, I think that to launch actual manned aircraft this could be problematic. Consider that their needs to be a launch space, a landing space, a maintenance space, ammo storage for both the aircraft and the sub, the space for the sub's crew, the aircraft crew, the aircraft mechanics, the reactor and the fuel for the aircraft. There are probably ways to reduce the size, perhaps such as crew redundancy to eliminate staffing needs, but then you run into the contingency of having an injury to someone who performs a vital secondary function... then what? The spaces mentioned above could be combined in some way, just with little sleep in the past week with finals, I can't really think of much. Speed... I'm sure that given real-life power generating methods it would be slow, but perhaps fusion reactors or other designs not dependent upon outside resources would make speed concerns negligible (sp?)

Noise/stealth. Again, I think with moden tech problematic, but I'm sure there are ways around this with advanced tech. But note with all the advanced tech you merely serve to add to the initial development cost.

Now aircraft carrying ability, that's one point I'd like to say something about. Obviously. With more and more unmanned flight technology becoming available, I think it would be interesting to research capsule launched and sea-recoverable UAVs. Imagine a small vehicle, with expandable wings and say two small missile hardpoints encapsuled within a hollow cone of a launch rocket. Launch from an angled missile tube, and then at a set altitude above sea level the cone falls off, and the UAV rocket fires and wings expand and, Presto!. Armed UAV flying around. I mean they are small and would be hard to spot to some degree, and they'd have two, maybe just one, perhaps three, short - mid range antiship missiles... or attack missiles. THen with mission complete, they land on extendable pontoonish things and float on the sea until the sub can surface and recover... or make them disposable. As for manned flights, I think noting the space concerns above, it would be impractical to have manned flights aboard a submarine.

Conclusion, the topic elicits thought and has an interesting premise and ideas that could develop into promising and devestating weapons, but the the submereged assault carrier submarine... I just don't find the prospect cost-efficient.

Sorry for any agregious spelling errors, I have had no sleep in the past two days.

Thanks for your input. The idea of sea-recoverable UCAVs for this ship really helps! I know this probably would boil down to UCAVs but I hadn't thought about what you suggested.

Very interesting idea. :) I took a look at the specs on the Harrier and the Typhoon and figure that there's got to be enough room in the Typhoon for at least some Harriers, if you yank out all the ballistic missiles. :p

The Bloody Reaper offers facilitys for construction of this sub if wanted

OOC: i have seen another nation just recently produce something like your idea, it is/was godmode in my mind(others say it is not), but TPM may help you out here, i shall try and look for some pics that he showed me of a carrier sub. Something that is as big as a carrier but is submersable would weight a lot, your best bet would be to just stick to using a normal submarine armed with missiles, not as much fun as a carrier sub but much more plausable(NO ONE, should call that godmoding seeing as it is RL tech)

Here is a pic of the sub carrier from AC 5:

http://www.acecombat.jp/img/wp/kabe21l.jpg

Here is a pic of the sub carrier from AC 5:

http://www.acecombat.jp/img/wp/kabe21l.jpg

Nice, but it wouldnt work, go to http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=372820 this is New Empires submersible Aircraft carrier. It is godmode though according to clan smoke jaguar(you should ALWAYS listen to what he says from what ive seen of him)

The main issue i think is its diving cepth, bassically, i would not Rp if someone had a submarine that was large enough to carry more than about two aircraft, those being helicopter prefarably so that the ship doesnt need a runway. Landing on a unstable submarine would be even harder than landing on an aircraft carrier, so the chances would be you would have A LOT of accidents.

Thanks. The whole thing with a landing deck like a modern carrier is just weird.

Thanks. The whole thing with a landing deck like a modern carrier is just weird.

OOC: NP, i would just stick to your conventional designs if i were you, if you can come up with some good naval designs i will gladly buy from you(i dont do naval stuff)

Also, once you get good at it(if you carry on0 you should look into making deals, like carrier packages and amphibious assault packages, they are good and i would purchase them if i liked the ideas

I'm not quite up to selling warships yet, but I will soon setup a car storefront!

It is godmode though according to clan smoke jaguar(you should ALWAYS listen to what he says from what ive seen of him)

Just one question. How can it be a godmode if someone has launched planes from a submarine in real life?

The Japanese actually did it with seaplanes though. Hrm. Canvas and wood anyone? ;)