NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's the OOC thread cause the other thread is getting bogged down in ooc bullshit.

Pantera for me to post damage to your counter attack I need to actually know what constitutes a volley, range of the missiles, approximate speed and warhead size.




Also this is a FYI to everyone if you dont post an exact number or atleast a reference to a size i.e. saying a squadron(about 12-18 aircraft) then Im just going to assume everything means you launch theres only two of them.

OOC:
2) Is it just me or does Pantera never get hit by anything we throw at him? Your fog of flak would not work considering my missiles are going at Mach 3.


2: "And black as well!" Said the raven of the crow. Okay bud, I've taken damage in every single post you all have thrown at me, which is more than the lot of you can say. I've been shelling your coastline since you first fired on me, and you've lost 2 ships who were sitting idly IN HARBOR ffs, and a bit of damage around the harbor...

And aside from that nonsense: With my SM-2 batteries pumping out missiles, my fog, and with my 400 or so ships currently out there, near every one of whom is equipped with a few of my own CWIS guns, I should be doing fine.

So far I've taken far more damage than anyone, so please, take that shit somewhere else.

OOC:
3) CLARIFY WITH SOME DAMN NUMBERS PLEASE. We need to know what you have so we can hit them. How in the hell are we going to guess how many ships you have? Between 600 and 800? Um...that's 200 give or take, that's too much, sorry. NUMBERS


3: AMF put it well with:

Sorry if our idea of RP differs from yours. We prefer NOT to number wank like the lot of you, and as Pantera said don't expect us to write up huge fucking manifests of every single craft and unit we have. Not going to happen, that makes for a shitty and boring story. If you want to play a number game, go play with your calculator or something.

That's just not how I play. I don't mind taking damages, because that's part of the story I'm trying to tell. What's not a part of the story is exactly how many cruisers I have in proportion to the number of tankers. That sucks, and doesn't interest me in the slighted. While I appreciate the fact that Belem likes to write that way, lists of "212 Sj-X's and 413 modified F-Uck's" doesn't suit me to write. I already said I'm not going to go off and detail how many of each craft I have, and I'll stick to it.

All right. Here's the very imprecise summary of what I've got. This may be added to as needed.

The four Doujins
32 battleships, easily more advanced then even the Doujins
24 assault battleships
24 Execution-class carriers (Think really big and really well armored)
About 36 Victory-class carriers (much smaller, Exeter class in comparison to any other American main carrier in WW2)
Around 100 heavy cruisers, think pocket battleships
A shitload of cruisers, which include: Guided missile, anti-missile, anit-air, general, escort
An even greater shitload of Destroyers, with both escort, anti-sub, anti-air, anti-ship, general
A tone of troop transports, with easily enough to carry 750,000 men/tank crews+tanks/artillery
Lots of subs, both escort, attack, and ballistic missile
All the logistical support vessles needed
A couple dozen hospital ships

Tons of fighters
Tons of bombers
Tons of general aircraft, including EWACS, etc...

And I"ll clarify if need be. Just think of this. Bigger ship=more guns
Anti-air class=more antiair then general class of any ship
Doujins have mucho range, power, but are quite loud, quite large, and quite slow.

I reserve the right to clarify further.

Oh, and the total size is something like 600 fighting ships, along with the attached transports, logistics, etc...

Hey, and Belem, mind replying to my attack on your fleet? Thanks. :D

Alrite this is in response to Pantera. If I miss something im sorry just tell me.

About the torps I sent you a tg with some info and a link on some other tech. About the attack it is an assumption and if im wrong then I hope your smart enough to make me pay for it. I don't know everything about your fleet iccly so when I do something it probaly won't work out perfectly as planned. But even if your ships arent bunched like ignorant asses my tactic would still work to a certain degree. Any other questions?

On Nukes as I posted before Im totally against them in this rp as that would destroy the point of fighting as wed just nuke each other to hell.

EDIT: Didn't see your above post, ya I agree with you their Zarbia hasn't taken rl losses from your attaks but about the complaining about casualties the way you post it almost seems like you dont take any. While its not your fault as you are a great rper and your posts are better then mine I ca see were hes coming from o. How about to remedy this and to stp you from havving to change yor rp style and posts 28630 planes and 725 missiles that at the end of each post pantera you have a short OOC summary of losses and other numbers.

Pantera for me to post damage to your counter attack I need to actually know what constitutes a volley, range of the missiles, approximate speed and warhead size.

Also this is a FYI to everyone if you dont post an exact number or atleast a reference to a size i.e. saying a squadron(about 12-18 aircraft) then Im just going to assume everything means you launch theres only two of them.

Okay. I'll try to make this simple.

I'm not so much into the technical aspects of this whole thing. You guys posting that your missiles travel at mach three with super anal-cavity capabilities doesn't interest me. I'm sorry that it doesn't, but what can I say?

I guess we have to find a middle ground, because I would prefer you guys put more thought and effort into the grander epic, rather than the minute details of the missile's guidance system's capabilities. But, I doubt I'll get what I want, and I've resigned myself to the fact. On the other hand, you guys might prefer that I studied up on the details of maximum-depth of my subs in warm water versus cold, rather than concentrating on the bigger picture and the drama of the combat, but again: Not gonna happen and unless you yourslves resign yourselves to that fact, we're gonna be here, bickering about it all night.

Right, I'm going to have to second that BS on the aircraft-launched torpedo rocket.

1) My first problem is with the range. No ASROC or SUBROC has ever had a range of greater than 120 miles, and that was back in the 60s when the USN had a SUBROC that had a nuclear only 12.5" torpedo. There haven't been any range improvements since.

2) You can't launch torpedo rockets from moving aircraft. A hovering helo perhaps, but not a fighter or bomber. The reason is simple, ASROC torpedos require that as soon as the torpedo is released from the rocket body and enters a ballistic trajectory the torpedo must deploy a chute to arrest forward movement before it hits the water, lest it be destroyed on impact. Even launching a torpedo rocket at half the speed of sound would mean that the torpedo could not deploy its shoot soon enough to slow down before it hit the water, assuming the chute could be deployed at all.

I'm going to have to question the massive missile launches as well. Even with a networked targetting suite like Aegis, or even something better, it could not direct each and every missile. Hell, even my Fleet C3i system can only handle about 5/8 of the missiles that any one of my fleets could launch at one time and it's a lot better at the job than Aegis ever will be.


EDIT: Pantera, while I agree that numbers bullshit needs to be kept out of RP as much as possible, it wouldn't hurt to notify your opponents of your fleet size and composition here. Similarly, Belem and company need to understand that Pantera is a huge military power, their gear is probably the equal of anything Mac's supporters can produce. Unless otherwise noted by Pantera himself, assume that or ask in a telegram.

Here info on the torp. I no it says Principe III but the MALAS-2 is basically the same thing with the same torp just bigger.

The Principe III
The Principe III is a missile launched torpedo which is fired out of a VLT system, meaning it can be used on a submarine, or on a surface ship. The Principe III was the answer to the MSCIWS problem which was rendering Macabee surface strike anti-shipping missiles worthless, and it provided the Macabee military with a powerful weapon of destruction.

The Principe III uses a conventional engine, with a conventional jet turbine, propelling it at a measly Mach 2.1. However, this lower velocity also allows it to maneuver in the face of enemy surface to air missiles, which may be sent to counter the Principe III at longer ranges, allowing the Principe III to most likely surface massive barrages of long range anti-missile SAMs. In addition, the turbine is coated by the THYMONEL 8 superalloy which is used a lot in Macabee missiles to protected against hydrogen embrittlement (HEE), as well as over heating, giving the Principe III an extremely long range (five hundred kilometers; meaning five hundred seventy total, taking in mind that it drops the torpedo at around 70 kilometers from the enemy fleet). THYMONEL 8 was a NiFe superalloy mixed by the United States military for its jet turbines (NiFe is Nickel Based Iron Formula superalloy).

The Principe III jet turbine propells the missile capsule, which is much like a bouyancy capsule, however, instead is slimmer, and built to deal with air friction, and the augmented velocities. At around seventy kilometers distance the Principe III missile capsule, using RADAR and LIDAR to compute distance, as well as sattelite coordination if their are sattelites present, and the missile capsule breaks releasing an MT-2 torpedo into the water. However, this requires the Principe III to slow down to around 120 kilometers per hour. To decrease speed without allowing the enemy a greater time period to shoot it down, the Principe III has a very advanced jamming system, which jams enemy RADAR, giving it ample time to close the distance, break, and drop the MT-2.

The MT-2 is a SuperCavitating torpedo, which runs at a normal 70 knots for fifty of the seventy kilometers, and then makes turns for 200 knots at 20 kilometers distance. To handle the increasing ten kilometers in range the screw and propellant of the MT-2 is made of a NiAl based superalloy (Nickel based Alumina Formula superalloy).

PANTERA:

What? My entire harbour got blown to shit and two battleships got sunk and others got damaged.

All that has happened to you after getting pummelled by missiles is little ship fires. Whatever though, let's all grow up and start taking some damage.

Ok, about Belem's nukes:

THERE WILL BE NO USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONRY IN THIS RP. It's lame, noobish, and invariably will cause this war to end in mass ignores.

And I stand by my BS. Look, at anything over 10 meters per second water is like solid steel, anything hitting it at an appreciable speed will go splat. Futhermore, torpedo rockets are unguided and ballistic for a reason. The first is that if the torp doesn't go ballistic it can't deploy its chute in an effective manner, which means the torp will turn into aluminum chaff when it hits the water. Second, there's no reason to guide the rocket body, the point of something like ASROC is to put a torpedo at extended range into the vacinity of a suspected sub and let the torpedo do the hunting. You'd be better off launching ASMs if you want to take out ships.

Tyrandis-Amen
Well, Im not the most knowledgable person on weaponry and stuff so I cant really argue with you their but Ill talk to some people I know who do know a thing or two and bring it up then. Till then just forget about the torps, not worth halting the rp till I can scrounge up some info and ppl.

PANTERA:

What? My entire harbour got blown to shit and two battleships got sunk and others got damaged.

All that has happened to you after getting pummelled by missiles is little ship fires. Whatever though, let's all grow up and start taking some damage.

Are you even remotely familiar with naval combat? I suspect not, otherwise you'd know that fires account for more lives and equipment lost than any other thing in combat. A fire, uncontrolled, will wipe a deck clean and mission kill a ship before it can even make a substantial contribution to the battle.

EDIT: Pantera, while I agree that numbers bullshit needs to be kept out of RP as much as possible, it wouldn't hurt to notify your opponents of your fleet size and composition here. Similarly, Belem and company need to understand that Pantera is a huge military power, their gear is probably the equal of anything Mac's supporters can produce. Unless otherwise noted by Pantera himself, assume that or ask in a telegram.

That's fair, and I really do not mind people taking a few creative liberties, as long as it's within reason. As SS pointed out, I'm much larger than anyone here, I've RP'd my nation from day one as the toughest, most warlike fucks around, and their gear is definately as good as anything you have. It's there, bet on that, even if I don't point it out and list its weight, length, color, and cup-size.

So, here it is, guys. Good as it's gonna get:

Fleet currently engaged:

Destroyers: 100
Cruisers: 55
Battleships: 45
AA Batteries: 10
Carriers: 12
Frigates: 50
Subs: 65
And, all of my transports, the rest of my supply ships, tankers, and all the rest who withdrew along with their carrier escorts.

The fleet enroute would be roughly about that many and half again, across the board, save for carriers, which there are about 25.

I'll tell ya right now, the only thing I know about weapons is that if it comes out of a barrel, it can kill you.

Are you even remotely familiar with naval combat? I suspect not, otherwise you'd know that fires account for more lives and equipment lost than any other thing in combat. A fire, uncontrolled, will wipe a deck clean and mission kill a ship before it can even make a substantial contribution to the battle.

Have you even read the attack? The fire didn't do shit other than burn some guy and that's about it. It wasn't uncontrolled, it was controlled within seconds.

Also, about the fog of flak and missiles, of course not all of my missiles will hit their target, but a good amount of them will and they will cause damage.

PANTERA:

What? My entire harbour got blown to shit and two battleships got sunk and others got damaged.

All that has happened to you after getting pummelled by missiles is little ship fires. Whatever though, let's all grow up and start taking some damage.

As SS pointed out, a fire aboardship is no 'little' matter, and besides that I reported injuries and fires across the board. In doing so I was alluding to alot of damage without blatantly saying "Three carriers damaged, two battleships with malfunctioning targeting, etc etc ETC ETFUCKINGC". Storytelling, my friend.

Pantera did you see my idea?

Have you even read the attack? The fire didn't do shit other than burn some guy and that's about it. It wasn't uncontrolled, it was controlled within seconds.

Also, about the fog of flak and missiles, of course not all of my missiles will hit their target, but a good amount of them will and they will cause damage.


A fire can't be controlled in seconds. Assuming that a fire crew deploying from a chain locker is fairly close to the fire, it would still take roughly a minute to reach and start to control a fire and it would probably take another two minutes to bring even a small one under control. In that time every mount around the fire could be destroyed, and that's if the ship is lucky and it doesn't reach the VLS cells to cook off missiles, in which case any ship would be fairly well fucked.

Zarbia, I can't see where your disdain for the "fog of flak" method comes from. "Wall of steel" is another description for it - fill the air with so many projectiles around the target that the missile can't hit it. With the aid of modern targeting systems and extremely deadly warheads, it's highly effective. Hell, NE/Artitsa's MetalStorm system uses the principle well, as does my IULLDES - give the projectiles a box around a target and shoot into it repeatedly, and the odds are that you'll nail it despite inaccuracies.

Pantera did you see my idea?

I guess I could do that, but it seems pointless to write the RP itself, eh?

I've gone back and counted four, four direct references to ships being hard-hit, plus a large number of other smaller references to debris hitting, shrapnel falling, and fires breaking out.

Now, I want you guys to go back through every post from your side, and count up the damage taken. How much is there? Aside from Zarbia's port and two ships, how much other damage have you all, together, taken?

Overall, you guys have, altogether, barely taken more damage I, alone, have. Sorry, guys, I'm just not seeing where you're complaining at me. From what I'm going back and reading I made it pretty clear I was taking alot of fire, but wasn't caving so far. Problems there, or would you prefer I caved on the first salvo? Not gonna happen. I've not come out and said 'Six ships hit hard, twenty two ships slightly damaged, 313 casualties'. That's the shittiest RP I've ever heard of, and I won't comprimise my story to do so. I've alluded to plenty of damage, I just didn't come out and blatantly flaunt it. So I feel fine with what I've done. IF you guys can't read my post and draw your own conclusions from the evidence there, then I'm supposed to go out of my way to clarify what is already there?

EDIT: Going back I caught a 'whiny' feel to my post that was not intended. I don't mean to bitch, but getting shit for taking casualties that were there is BS.

Besides, to use an obsolescent phrase, get real. It's not as if in a real battle the opposing sides bellow their losses to one another...

*Cut to the Eastern Front, where a Russian soldier is standing on a T-34/76*

"One tank knocked out, two slightly damaged...one with a dead track, 20 casualties. One machine-gun jammed and one AT gun dead. How are you?"

:rolleyes:

Well, Ill do my best to rp it with characters and other details and such. But bear with me as that isn't exactly what Im used to. Ill do this, I cant talk for Zarbia and them but Ill try to compromise with my rping.

Besides, to use an obsolescent phrase, get real. It's not as if in a real battle the opposing sides bellow their losses to one another...

*Cut to the Eastern Front, where a Russian soldier is standing on a T-34/76*

"One tank knocked out, two slightly damaged...one with a dead track, 20 casualties. One machine-gun jammed and one AT gun dead. How are you?"

:rolleyes:

Their asking for OOC info, and theyd notice how many shis got blown up as ships aren't exactly the smallest things around.

Well, Ill do my best to rp it with characters and other details and such. But bear with me as that isn't exactly what Im used to. Ill do this, I cant talk for Zarbia and them but Ill try to compromise with my rping.

And I'll do my best to go on about random numbers like 'I-420 Missiles' that travel at mach 3 but do not have anal cavitating capabilities, unlike the 'U-69' warhead, which is painted blue.

;) Jokes.

Tyrandis-Amen
Well, Im not the most knowledgable person on weaponry and stuff so I cant really argue with you their but Ill talk to some people I know who do know a thing or two and bring it up then. Till then just forget about the torps, not worth halting the rp till I can scrounge up some info and ppl.


I'm not calling BS for Pantera's, or any of my ally's sake, I'm doing it because I'd do the same thing if one of my allies tried the same stunt. In fact, I've done it before. If you want to talk to someone, talk to Clan Smoke Jaguar, he's even more prone to giving blunt and truthful statements on weapons that I am, and he knows more as well.

Belem, one question. Would the EMP satellite detonating not also affect YOUR planes? I mean, a plane really can't tolerate failure of any electronic component for any period of time and they certainly can't be shielded as well as a ship could be.

Or am I missing some reason as to why they wouldn't be affected?

Given an assumption of equality, if Pantera's planes are effected so should Belem's. However, neither one of them will be as the satellite is probably past the ionosphere and EMP won't penetrate it.

Ok Belem, I'd like to ask a simple question.


OOC: A total of 2,040 missiles are launched at the Panteran fleet the missiles are targetted as evenly as possibly to all ships with perimeter ships getting priority.

You just said you used that many missiles against the Panteran fleets.

Now you say that:


The 200 Vampires in Thearte dropped counter measures and took evasive actions as they returned fire with there own Long Range missiles. Each launching 4 Scorpion missiles at the incoming bogeys(ooc: Scorpion uses a combination of Radar and IR to engage there targets, and can get close to mach 7.)

I have 300 fighters operational. You are somehow shooting 1,200 long-range AAMs RIGHT AFTER YOU ATTACK PANTERA WITH OVER 2k MISSILES.

Missiles don't grow on trees. Explain how your fighters can carry that many munitions.

edit: Not only that, they're going at Mach 7, at a range of almost 150 mi. Your missile is going to be huge then, and thus you can't mount that many more AAMs on your fighters.

Explain how you're gonna use an IRST system when you've the air friction of Mach 7 flight to deal with...

Mach 7?! You can't have bay doors of any kind at Mach 7, cause opening them would compomise the thermal shielding and destroy the aircraft. Your uber-aircraft do have heat shielding, don't they?

My problem with the air launched torpedo that becomes a missile is this:
It is launched from a range of over 400 miles and flies 330 until it reaches the separation point. The problem is that this missile is moving around Mach 3-5 if I've read correctly. It takes a lot of fuel and weight for that. The bigger problem is the torpedo. It goes 70 miles as a supercav at a speed of 200 knots. That is BS. This is an anti-ship torp so it has a pretty good sized warhead I'd guess. The old ASROC was light with a 100 lb ASW warhead that would do little damage to a surface ship. The fuel alone for the torpedo to run as a supercav at that distance and with that warhead would weigh so much that no air launched or ship launched missile outside of something the size of a Trident II would be possible. The torpedo alone would weigh around 4-5,000 pounds and I don't think any missile going at high speed or even low speed can carry that outside of an ICBM. Another problem with the torpedo part is that no supercav has that range. I believe the longest in existance is around a 7,500 yard range and that is sub launched and heavy due to the fuel it needs.

And Zarbia, take damage from my missile and gun strikes along the Northern coast of Egypt along with the strike on the Western Bank of the Nile River on your side of the border with UE.

Actually, the Skvall is an '80s torpedo utilizing the flower of '70s research, comparing it to anything that could be dreamed up now is a little... ill advise. I have a 2020s tech supercav that performs almost as well as the ADCAP, it just sacrifices warhead weight for aluminum fuel. That said, you could reach 100 miles if, and only if, it was one of those 40" jobs that weighs several thousand kilos and would be incredibly hard to mount to any missile or rocket.

Well, you could try and put a long thing one on a Shipwreck derivative, maybe an old Snadbox, if you took out the warhead and filled it with fuel...but that has a lot of big, annoying issues.

Actually, the Skvall is an '80s torpedo utilizing the flower of '70s research, comparing it to anything that could be dreamed up now is a little... ill advise. I have a 2020s tech supercav that performs almost as well as the ADCAP, it just sacrifices warhead weight for aluminum fuel. That said, you could reach 100 miles if, and only if, it was one of those 40" jobs that weighs several thousand kilos and would be incredibly hard to mount to any missile or rocket.
I read somewhere, I think it was FAS, that the latest Skvall with the 7,500 yard range was a 1995 torpedo.

Well, you could try and put a long thing one on a Shipwreck derivative, maybe an old Snadbox, if you took out the warhead and filled it with fuel...but that has a lot of big, annoying issues.
Even that wouldn't be enough power to move something of that weight. It would only be possible if you have 2 pound warhead on the torpedo, and even then I doubt it would be possible.

Yarr, I think that's called VA-111U (export VA-111E), 7,500m range and some kind of guidance system.

Mach 7?! You can't have bay doors of any kind at Mach 7, cause opening them would compomise the thermal shielding and destroy the aircraft. Your uber-aircraft do have heat shielding, don't they?
Well, if I can add in here (directed at Belem's attack using penetrator bombs), there's some more problems related to bomb release at that speed:

1. Temperature effect on the bombs. If the bomb has explosives and/or delicate temperature-sensitive equipment (incl electronics) for guidance, you can either expect the bombs to burn up or fall harmlessly if you do plan to release them from very high altitudes at Mach 3. Which is exactly the reason why 500kg bombs used on MiG-25 reconaissance variants were special in that they had very special heat shieldings. But even with that, the MiG-25 recon variants will not be reaching Mach 2.8< with a full bomb load, nor it will reach 100,000ft< altitude.

2. Accuracy. If you do plan to release the bomb at that kind of speed and altitude, then you got a serious problem. Even with glide kits and rocket boosters and guidance, you should expect the bombs mostly fall harmlessly into water. Aside from the fact that even from very high altitudes, they aren't going to glide that far without losing their penetration.
Even if the XB-70 would have large unguided bombs as one kind of armament, they would most likely be huge nuclear bombs of the megaton scale.

Alright, I'm just going to offer up what I know about various weapon systems and common sense, especially since I don't have a personal stake in this conflict.

1: Belem, please learn the use of the word "their".

2: The use of bunkerbusting bombs against ships is inherently ineffective. Think about it. These are weapons designed to hit a static target, the location of which is pre-programmed or updated from groundside by an independent targeter. The ships are not being targeted by anyone, and can move, so those bombs would do nothing. Furthermore, the use of demi-nuclear weapons is repulsive and god-modish, because I do not think it is literally possible to make a nuke that "only" has a 200 foot blast radius, especially one that can magically survive the shock of penetrating "30 feet of concrete."

(What the hell is LIDAR? It had better not be "light radar"...)

Thrust-vectored missiles make 100% no sense. Missiles are not agile; they go far too fast and have too little of a flight surface. I'm sorry but that is just absolutely absurd.

Mach 12 missiles? How freaking huge are those things?

It is good to know that all have agreed that the missile-delivered torpedo will not work. During World War II the planes had to fly at very slow speeds, 20 feet above the water, and many torpedos still broke up. The art has not advanced all the much since. You can only build the things so tough before they get too heavy and required too much fuel and so on.

And, IMHO, the Doujin is one of the largest godmodes ever. A thirty-inch gun is about the largest cannon ever created. And he claims to mount twenty of them on a ship. Sheer impossiblity, and I get the feeling CSJ has said the same thing a few times. The sheer shock of firing the cannons would rip the ship apart, if nothing else. Still, if everyone agrees that their use is acceptable (and that four of them would cost quite a bit more than $1 trillion) it's a moot point.

LIDAR (or LADAR as I call it) is indeed Light Detection and Ranging. I assume they're the same thing; that said, if they aren't, I use LADAR (Laser Detection And Ranging) instead.

Oh quiet you! I only pull the damn things out for really big battles. Such as this one. I can pull The Freethinkers out to quote prose relating to the Doujin if I have to.

And yes, four cost a hella lot of money. Partly balanced by the fact those were the only expenditures for the armed forces for about two years, but still. Big lots of money.

Only reason im using a bunkerbuster on the Doujin is because its a huge extremely slow moving target if its moving at all. Last time I checked that thing was nearly a mile long it might as well be stationary as a computer could easily accomadate for movement.

Also, the Hypersoars would drop the bombs on the skip into the atmosphere, and of course the bombs and missiles would be heat shieled. As of now all released knowledge about the hypersoar says nothing about it having to descend to drop its bombs, otherwise its main tactical point of being out of range would be gone.

Obviously if the bombs are designed to drop so far they will have heatshielding and specially designed electronic systems that will help them survive the drop. I believe fibreoptics can withstand extreme tempertures better.

The U.S. is developing deep penetration nuclear weapons that are designed to penetrate concrete bunkers then detonate a low yeild nuke that will collapse the bunker and tunnel complex.

Ok Belem, I'd like to ask a simple question.



You just said you used that many missiles against the Panteran fleets.

Now you say that:



I have 300 fighters operational. You are somehow shooting 1,200 long-range AAMs RIGHT AFTER YOU ATTACK PANTERA WITH OVER 2k MISSILES.

Missiles don't grow on trees. Explain how your fighters can carry that many munitions.

edit: Not only that, they're going at Mach 7, at a range of almost 150 mi. Your missile is going to be huge then, and thus you can't mount that many more AAMs on your fighters.

The Tiger Sharks were carrying the Anti Shipping missiles each was carrying 6 Javelins and 4 Medium range AAMs(which they didnt use.)

The Vampires have 12 hardpoints and were all loaded for Air to Air ops. At most the ones in combat launched 2-3 of there Medium range missiles leaving 4-6 Long Range depending on their combat load.

The Phoenix missile goes Mach 6 and has a 150 mile range. My warhead is also smaller because it uses Silcone Composite explosives. So instead of having to have a 80 pound explosive it has a 20 pound explosive which is the equivelent of the 80 pounds but it allows my missile to go further and faster because those extra 60 pounds can be used for fuel.

*Quiet note for Zarbia to have a look at the colony thread...*

Your standard bunker busters might dent the Doujin's armour and scorch the pain, but not much else. The huge ass bunker busters are going to be detected by radar and shot down. Not only that, one has to move the plane within forty kilometers, the second it opens its bay to drop a bomb it's toast and that's assuming it's a stealth aircraft. If it's the mach 7 aircraft, then it won't even get that close with modern TDMs. Mind you, it has nothing to do with the fact that it's a Doujin, the same facts I've listed would hold true to any modern BB.
EDIT: By the way, I don't know where you came up with the impression that it's slow, because it's top speed is only 2 knots slower than an Iowa.

Skeptisicm: Your name says it all, and I believe you've been smacked down before by Freethinkers, have you not? In fact, I think I recall that your argument is that it's infeasible/impossible for a RL nation to buil, which in NS isn't that an impressive of an argument.

(OOC: I think the confusion here is momentum. The weakness of a Doujin is not its top speed but its ability to change speeds. IE slow down, turn, accelerate. But it cruises just fine.)

OOC: Zarbia, please respond to the colonial thread.

Ok, about Belem's nukes:

THERE WILL BE NO USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONRY IN THIS RP. It's lame, noobish, and invariably will cause this war to end in mass ignores.

I agree. First person that shoots a n00k gets the ignore cannon, no questions asked. Doesn't matter if it's you, me, President Bush, Jesus, or a can of tuna. First thing that fires a nuke is banned from this RP.

The Tiger Sharks were carrying the Anti Shipping missiles each was carrying 6 Javelins and 4 Medium range AAMs(which they didnt use.)

The Vampires have 12 hardpoints and were all loaded for Air to Air ops. At most the ones in combat launched 2-3 of there Medium range missiles leaving 4-6 Long Range depending on their combat load.

The Phoenix missile goes Mach 6 and has a 150 mile range. My warhead is also smaller because it uses Silcone Composite explosives. So instead of having to have a 80 pound explosive it has a 20 pound explosive which is the equivelent of the 80 pounds but it allows my missile to go further and faster because those extra 60 pounds can be used for fuel.

Sooo...that means that you have enough fighters in the air to launch two vollies equalling 3,400 missiles and STILL be armed? Please explain.

Wheeeeee...

Well, as for the 70 mile supercavs... I think it's been said that a ASROC type weapon would have to have a smaller torpedo, and if it was a Supercav, range is probably 10 miles, at most. That's probably too much, actually. Now of course you could use a more fuel efficient liquid-metal kind of reactor for a 'water ramjet' or whatever it's called, but this would be too small. The only reason I didn't ignore them in W@W was because it was screwing with the continuity of the RP.

My best suggestion is that since Pantera has been kicking ass for much longer than you, that his tech is equal or better to yours. You should know Pant doesn't like number games, so deal with it. If necessary I'll do his tech or something.

On another note, glad to see that my tech is in use with at least two nations here.

Glorified tag over.

Sooo...that means that you have enough fighters in the air to launch two vollies equalling 3,400 missiles and STILL be armed? Please explain.


Read. The Air to Air fighters only launched 2-3 of their Medium range missiles. They did not fire there long range missiles in the fight against the panteran air force.

They launched the LONG RANGE missiles against tyrandis. And after they launched those long range the fighters had 2-4 missiles at most remaining.

I agree. First person that shoots a n00k gets the ignore cannon, no questions asked. Doesn't matter if it's you, me, President Bush, Jesus, or a can of tuna. First thing that fires a nuke is banned from this RP.


you dont accept the extremely small nuclear attack I dont accept the ridicously large and unfeasible Doujin. Because any RL nation facing a ship like that would use low grade nuclear devices instead of having to waste 200 missiles on one ship.

Read. The Air to Air fighters only launched 2-3 of their Medium range missiles. They did not fire there long range missiles in the fight against the panteran air force.

They launched the LONG RANGE missiles against tyrandis. And after they launched those long range the fighters had 2-4 missiles at most remaining.

So pray tell me again, how many fighters do you have in the air and how many missile are they equpiied with?


you dont accept the extremely small nuclear attack I dont accept the ridicously large and unfeasible Doujin. Because any RL nation facing a ship like that would use low grade nuclear devices instead of having to waste 200 missiles on one ship.


Silly Belem, n00kZ are for n00bZ.

I know of several perfectly feasible modern tech ways to down a Doujin wihout using n00kZ. Oh but wait....you think I don't know shit about naval warfare...I forgot.....

The point still stands, fire a nuke, get ignored.

I know of several perfectly feasible modern tech ways to down a Doujin wihout using n00kZ. Oh but wait....you think I don't know shit about naval warfare...I forgot.....

The point still stands, fire a nuke, get ignored.

Your standard bunker busters might dent the Doujin's armour and scorch the pain, but not much else. The huge ass bunker busters are going to be detected by radar and shot down. Not only that, one has to move the plane within forty kilometers, the second it opens its bay to drop a bomb it's toast and that's assuming it's a stealth aircraft. If it's the mach 7 aircraft, then it won't even get that close with modern TDMs. Mind you, it has nothing to do with the fact that it's a Doujin, the same facts I've listed would hold true to any modern BB.
EDIT: By the way, I don't know where you came up with the impression that it's slow, because it's top speed is only 2 knots slower than an Iowa.

Skeptisicm: Your name says it all, and I believe you've been smacked down before by Freethinkers, have you not? In fact, I think I recall that your argument is that it's infeasible/impossible for a RL nation to buil, which in NS isn't that an impressive of an argument.

Hey, if everyone agrees that the Doujin is acceptable, that's A-Okay. It just did not seem that way to me, so I put in my 2 cents worth. Also, I agree completely that there is really no way to hit a moving target with a bunker-busting bomb, although the idea of "shooting it down" wouldn't exactly be easy, either. The main problem I have seen often is that people assume the Doujin is invincible, which obviously it cannot be, and the thread turns into a sour grapes fest by the poor bastard who finds himself unable to even dent the thing. If a 500-2000 pound bunker-buster somehow did hit the Doujin, or any ship for that matter, serious damage would occur. It would penetrate through at least one deck and explode to cause utter mayhem. If it could hit in the first place.

My argument against the Doujin, as you evidently missed out, was that there is no way to fit that many humongous guns onto a ship, even of the size Doujin picked. What's more, firing them on the move would literally shake the ship apart, or at least cause so much damage that after a few volleys you'd need to check every rivet in the hull to make sure it's stable.

All in all however I agree with AMF. The mighty Doujin, regardless of how ridiculous all its weaponry and armor is, could easily be destroyed by $250 billion worth of normals ships or airplanes. Engage it at close range with conventional battleships (how about inside the range of those 30' guns?) and unless your support ships can bail you out, the thing will just get hammered until it's dead in the water. Or, just lure it into a minefield and laugh as it cannot stop after hitting the first mines and plows on through to take massive damage. The problem with it being used lies in the folks using them not being willing to accept that their ship can be damaged at all, because OMG DOUJIN. I am not passing judgement, but please at least accept that bombs and missiles, upon hitting, will do damage.

And I have no idea who the hell Freethinkers is.

A ship designing program called SpringSharp disagrees with you. As it is, a ship merely needs be phyiscally bigger than the guns and have the draft to accomodate the guns. In fact, this is a scaled down version of the Flight III Doujin refit that I made, with assistance from more experienced hands, in SpringSharp.


HIMS Gehenna, Imperium of Scandinavian States Superdreadnought laid down 1945

Displacement:
662,449 t light; 688,444 t standard; 706,472 t normal; 720,895 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
2,048.49 ft / 2,017.72 ft x 339.57 ft x 65.62 ft (normal load)
624.38 m / 615.00 m x 103.50 m x 20.00 m

Armament:
20 - 24.00" / 610 mm guns (5x4 guns), 6,912.00lbs / 3,135.23kg shells, 1945 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1945 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
36 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (12x3 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1945 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
11 - 1.18" / 30.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.82lbs / 0.37kg shells, 1945 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
36 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1945 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 141,816 lbs / 64,327 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 26.0" / 660.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 23.6" / 600 mm 1,328.74 ft / 405.00 m 39.37 ft / 12.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.94" / 100 mm 1,689.63 ft / 515.00 m 59.06 ft / 18.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 35.4" / 900 mm 23.6" / 600 mm 23.6" / 600 mm
2nd: 8.27" / 210 mm 5.51" / 140 mm 5.51" / 140 mm
3rd: 1.97" / 50 mm - -

- Armour deck: 18.11" / 460 mm, Conning tower: 27.56" / 700 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 12 shafts, 709,041 shp / 528,945 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 32,451 tons)

Complement:
12,183 - 15,839

Cost:
£280.392 million / $1,121.569 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 17,727 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 294,748 tons, 41.7 %
- Belts: 54,133 tons, 7.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 14,535 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 61,168 tons, 8.7 %
- Armour Deck: 160,202 tons, 22.7 %
- Conning Tower: 4,710 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 17,905 tons, 2.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 332,070 tons, 47.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 44,023 tons, 6.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,729,571 lbs / 1,691,705 Kg = 539.6 x 24.0 " / 610 mm shells or 2,588.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 47.8 ft / 14.6 m
Roll period: 20.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.94 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 44.92 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 30 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 114.83 ft / 35.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 98.43 ft / 30.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 98.43 ft / 30.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 98.43 ft / 30.00 m
- Stern: 98.43 ft / 30.00 m
- Average freeboard: 99.74 ft / 30.40 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 30.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 731.3 %
Waterplane Area: 478,159 Square feet or 44,422 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 150 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 502 lbs/sq ft or 2,450 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 2.47
- Overall: 1.04
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

All I would have to do to accomodate 30" guns would be to scale up the size of the ship. Also, I should note this isn't a trimaran, so if there were any problems with the design the program would note firing stress.

A ship designing program called SpringSharp disagrees with you. As it is, a ship merely needs be phyiscally bigger than the guns and have the draft to accomodate the guns. In fact, this is a scaled down version of the Flight III Doujin refit that I made, with assistance from more experienced hands, in SpringSharp.

Would that be a readily available program?

Sure, go to springsharp.com

A warning, though, it's only made for WWII-era ships. There aren't any provisions for guided missiles, nuclear reactors, or any other goodies.

I'll try to get back this evening with a few replies, but I will make no promises. Tragedy has struck in Pantera. *points to sig* I plan to get reeling drunk. I'll be checking my TG's and lurking around the comp, though, so if you absolutely need me for anything, just hit me there. I'll see you all at the bottom of my bottle... Or bag, respectfully.

Word.

I can't decide whether this is comical and you're talking about a dimebag of Mary Jane or this is serious and a pet you've given an unfortunate name to has died. Which is it?

EDIT: Never mind, you clarified elswhere.

I'll try to get back this evening with a few replies, but I will make no promises. Tragedy has struck in Pantera. *points to sig* I plan to get reeling drunk. I'll be checking my TG's and lurking around the comp, though, so if you absolutely need me for anything, just hit me there. I'll see you all at the bottom of my bottle... Or bag, respectfully.

Word.


OMFG NOOOO!!!! NOT DIMEBAG!!!!! :(

So pray tell me again, how many fighters do you have in the air and how many missile are they equpiied with?





Silly Belem, n00kZ are for n00bZ.

I know of several perfectly feasible modern tech ways to down a Doujin wihout using n00kZ. Oh but wait....you think I don't know shit about naval warfare...I forgot.....

The point still stands, fire a nuke, get ignored.

My aircraft have 12 hardpoints apiece. Ussually on Sea assault runs they only have 8-10 filled. For air combat all 12 are filled, and if its absolutely neccesary they can use there external hardpoints which gives them an extra 4 but it reduces there stealthiness so they are unused.

And I know there are plenty of ways to destroy a Doujin, I don't want to commit the heavy resources neccesary to do so. All I have to do is get one of the powderkegs to blow and the ship and everything around it gets destroyed.

Wait, what do you mean by powderkegs?

Two options I guess:

1) Name of the nuclear bombs he's trying to drop.
2) He means the magazines / arsenal on the Doujins.

Reading it again, I'd go for the second one.

Wait, what do you mean by powderkegs?

powderkegs is the oldtime name for the munitions room. Its where they store all the ammo and the powderbags for the mainguns. If it blows the ship is toast. Thats what happened to the Arizona at Pearl Harbor the bomb pierced its deck and detonated in the powder room.

Yeah, that's what I thought you meant. One problem with that theory, ETCs don't use powderbags for the shell's propulsion.

the warhead still has explosives in it and the scramjets they attack to them do.

And ETC still have chemical propellent. otherwise it would just be an ET gun.

The chemical in ETC alludes to either the metal or liquid used in the ETC guns. I believe all of the OMP members use metal propellent.

My aircraft have 12 hardpoints apiece. Ussually on Sea assault runs they only have 8-10 filled. For air combat all 12 are filled, and if its absolutely neccesary they can use there external hardpoints which gives them an extra 4 but it reduces there stealthiness so they are unused.



You still have not told me how many aircraft you have in the air.

Hey, Belem, since you're the one who loves numbers, here's a question for you.

How many friggin cruise missiles have you launched and do you have? You're pulling them out your ass, or at least that's what it seems like. We need to get numbers and then we can regulate whether or not you actually CAN fire 300 cruise missiles twelve times per day.

And though there are some serious issues with that nuke drop, I"m taking some damage. Just know you were wared and could have had those bombers blown to pieces. But as you went ahead with the attack- I sincerely doubt that your civilain population will like your government all that much.

Propoganda....errrm, Post to come.

Ok, since you said that the Scorpion missiles that you use have IR trackers, the missiles will be wildly inaccurate (Mach 7 = heat friction). I'll recognize the initial strike, but all further use of missiles by your aircraft are thus considered invalid.

I have three hundred birds in the air, you have two hundred. I used two XLRAAMs fired from each of my own jets, so my fighters have a remaining 2 wingtip XSRAAMs (short range) and 8 more XMRAAMs (medium range) in the internal weapons bays.

ooc: ill make an ooc post some time tommorow or early in the weekend. I'm starting finals weeks in school and have about 3 projects due next week.

Sorry for the lack of activity.

I have about 400-450 Fighters in the air. with another 100 in Zarbia and on the fleet ready to take off.

As for the missiles I need not know about the heat friction so i'll change the secondary targeting system.


Everything for my fleet can be found here: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=335396

Some of the information is slightly out of date and needs to be modified but it is generally update to date and reliable. The ships carry about 5-6x in extra armaments which to my best knowledge is generally what there RL equivelents carry.

Though that is missing specs on my Missile ship, AA ship and ASW ship. The missile ships and AA ships have approx. 600-700 missile launchers readied to fire.

I dont have the exact number at this time because im on my laptop which doesn't have my tech files.

Dimebag Darrell died. He was the guitarist for Pantera.

Well in response to Zarbia's little whine:

OOC: The amusing thing is how you guys talk so much about DEATH AND DESTRUCTION RAHHH and all this bullshit, yet I don't see much going on.

You guys just want to tell some lame ass story with characters no one cares about while others want to fight a war.

I'll turn to good ole' dictionary.com. Lifesaver, eh?


Role
N.

1. also rôle A character or part played by a performer

**snip**

: a socially prescribed pattern of behavior usually determined by an individual's status in a particular society.


Here, on the grand stage of NationStates, we are trying to write a story. No just any old story, but a story that spans numerous timeframes, hundreds of continents and worlds, thousands of nations and tens of thousands of characters. We are taking on the role of our nation, its inhabitants, and the world in which they live and breath. That, my unruly little friend, is why we are here.

Now, if you will look to the latter part of dictionary.com's quote, you will see that taking these roles onto ourselves and ROLEPLAYING is the socially prescribed pattern of behavior that is determined by our involvement in this particular society, NationStates.

Now, if the 'lame ass story' that we are trying to tell here doesn't fit with your ideas of what should be going on, perhaps you're view of ROLEplaying and the rest of our lives here at NationStates is completely skewed from the views of alot(Dare I say most?) of the rest of us.

Now, in response to the rest of your little rant, I'll just say that I guess we could say,"We launch 23432545465476576576476565476465477 Fucker-Model Missiles at your base. HAHAHAHA! You are dead, loser. We win." And that would be that, eh? Yeah, that's not 'lame ass' storytelling at all, is it? Well buddy, if that is the kind of war you're looking to fight, you might be in the wrong place.

As for the thinly veiled jab at AMF, I think it's kind of sad that you can't even tell this much of a story without resorting to petty, OOC insults.

Shame this thing has degenerated so far in the past two days. I was having alot of fun, but apparently our stories are too lame for someone as exhalted and knowlegdable in Roleplaying as yourself.... Oh...

/rant. Word...

I hope this doesnt mean the end of this rp.