NationStates Jolt Archive

This is one of my old nations designs that i have desided to update, i need help with some of the specifications and would like suggestions on how to improve this design9and also help on wather what i have written is correct or i could say that it could do more/less than i have stated). I need help with sizes please especcialy.

ATT-14
An armoured personnel carrier of the new generation- ATT-14 has four types of weapons installed. These are an automatic gun, a machine-gun, a grenade launcher and anti-tank missiles. This makes it possible to wage a fight against tanks, artillery pieces, mechanised infantry, helicopters and Infantry of an enemy at a distance of over 4 kilometres both from a still position and when moving. The high weight-carrying capacity and considerable inner capacity (14 cubic meters) of the eight-wheel (can be changed easily to tracks) ATT-14 allow transport of heavier weapons, such as an anti-tank gun, a 135-millimetre artillery piece, anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles and several other weapons to be carried safely to the front. ATT-14 can move at a speed of 110 kilometres per hour on roads and over 60km/h on highly broken ground. It can move even if four wheels have been damaged. ATT-14 can move across water. It can easily travel aboard and off a landing ship. ATT-14 is equipped with an automatic control system to carry out an effective control of the transmission and engine and other vitally important parts of the machine as well as an internal/external diagnostics system to make work on it easy to be carried out. It has a crew of three and can carry EW (battlefield mapping, command/control, coms as well as aircraft tracking systems (up to 30 aircraft, with 6 aircraft attack capabilities) systems or 8/10 fully equipped troops as well as SAM Systems.

Crew: 3 8/10 Infantry spaces.
Versions: a, this version has no anti-tank missiles or SAMs but can carry 8/10 soldiers depending on their equipment.
b, this version has full armament and EW but cannot carry any troops and has a crew of 5
c, this is the ultimate AFV version: upgraded armour, with new reactive armour types in layered sections, full weapons systems, including extra crew member to operate extra weapons (Radio Operated machine guns, 76mm main gun added design.
Weight: 60,000lbs
Obstacle grade: 1 m
Versions: a, this version has no anti-tank missiles or SAMs but can carry 8/10 soldiers depending on their equipment.
b, this version has full armament and EW but cannot carry any troops and has a crew of 5
cost: $3.5million(with weapons systems, EW sytem etc)

OOC: The bets type seems to be one with a lightish armament (30mm cannon, AT / SAM missiles) and about 6 - 8 passengers. If you get rid of the passengers it's just a poor man's light tank and without the guns it's just an armoured truck.

Thanks, do you think i should base the sizes on a M3 Bradley? Or should i go for a mix of BMP3s and other such APCs?

Well, this depends on the "Style" of APC you want. The "American" model, like the Bradleys, are really Infantry Fighting Vehicles, designed to slug it out in combat. Other nations prefer to keep it a simple Armored Transport with a few guns, which is cheaper, faster, but weaker.

Both have advantages and disadvantages, but I'd advise you to think "how do I want this to fight". It's better to have a machine REALLY GOOD at one aspect of combat than one that's sub-par in all aspects.

Alright, VastPrinciples, here's a suggestion:

AT-115 APC

Troop Capacity: 1 infantry squad with gear.
Crew: Driver, 2 gunners, commander.
Weapons system: Modular, anything from dual machineguns to an artillery cannon to a SAM site.
Wheels: Tracked.
Engine: Go for a electric-hybrid style engine to minimize gas usage.
Armor: A lot of it. Enough to protect against multiple rocket hits
Terrain: Should be able to climb a 50 degree slope, and scale obstacles up to 4 feet high. Water capability is a must.
Radar and other equipment: Yup.

Notes: Also, every part should be standardized and easily replaceable/fixable.

For a small fee, say a 4-5 billion dollars, i can send you the blueprints.

Thanks, do you think i should base the sizes on a M3 Bradley? Or should i go for a mix of BMP3s and other such APCs?

OOC: Well for 8 to 10 passenger I doubt thats doable with a tracked vehicle and keep a realistic cost.

For example the Bradley has only 6 places for fully equipped infantrymen and it only got a 25mm Bushmaster cannon mounted in a separate turret.With all the ammo and armor it gets really cramped in there.

As for the BMP-3 it mananges 8 fully equipped Soviet style infantrymen which are rather less equipped then their US counterpart.All this with a 100mm cannon with a 30mm coaxial cannon.Ammo count is not very huge and thats the main deficiency of the BMP-3.

So if you go the tracked route I guess a 5 man squad with all the clobber you want to put as armament.You would still end up with something much heavier thus slower than a BMP-3 or Bradley.So your thing is prolly going to be a lumbering monster if you keep it tracked.

If you go the wheeled way it's doable but it will still be bigger than the two examples above.However, you should be able to get your 8-10 troops in there with the armament you want.

On a final note something like that will be expensive and of dubious use on the modern RL battlefield.

This is kind of basic but...

Its a balance between what you want for armor, carrying capacity, and weapons system. A question you want to ask is do you want it fast or a little slower. If its fast then you have to sacrafice armor and weapon systems. But if you don't want it to be as fast, then you can have a little more protection, and have a slightly better weapons system. But you also must decide if you want 6 fully equppied men, or 8 fully equipped men. This will also decide what you have for weapons and armor. If you go track then as Lemieuxstad said, if you have a track one, it can hold more but go slower. If you go wheeled its faster, but cant hold as much.

So lets say i want a cheap APC, able to carry 6 fully equiped troops, not designed to carry any equipment other than what the troops need, i should go for a wheeled, lightly armoured/gunned APC which has a good power to weight ratio for fast speeds, and just let my MBTs, or AFVs support the troops that are sent out to fight, with minimal weapons(e.g. one or two 7.62 machine guns just to give a small amount of support for my troops)

I cant really make anything to large and expensive at the current time so this option sounds resonable to me, and i could make an IFV type vehicle at a later date, which would cost more. Thanks for the help, i'll look at my options. you guys have really showed me what to do when trying to build something such as this.

I hope to be able to make an AAAV also, that will carry 17troops, much like the american AAV in service now(I cant remember the name right now), and that vehicle will land the troops and get out of there, and thats due to your help here that ive decided on doing such a thing. Thankyou!!!

Always willing to help.

:)

Welcome to NS.

Well you have to define the mission of your APC or IFV.The following should help you a lot design something realistic.

First an APC is not an IFV and an IFV is not an APC. :p

What I mean is that an APC strictly speaking is made to ferry troops on the battlefield protecting them while in transit.Its a glorified 2 1/2 ton soldier truck.As such its not supposed to go directly at the enemy but rather keep behind the tanks and move in to consolidate a breakthrough while the tanks bypass the remaining troops.Also note that the tank is designed to take on other tanks and armored fighting vehicles.While it certainly can squish a lot of infantrymen on the modern battlefields those same infatrymen have plenty of anti-tank weapons to destroy it.So most commanders find it better to leave the fight to their own infantrymen.

So an APC should only be used to fight infantry.Or to form the second echelon of an armored formation.An APC designed for this role would probably have infantry-sized weapon to suppress the other side's infantry and carry a single standard squad.That's anywhere between 7 to 12 men.

The IFV on the other hand, while it can serve the same purpose, is made to fight with the tanks.It does have people in the back but they are not always mounted.Basically you want your IFV to engage anything that is not a tank.You've got yourself nice shiny tanker boys for that.So that's why it needs a heavier armament than the APC and since you occasionally want troops in it you can't have the kind of armament your MBT has.The infantry is almost always mounted and dismount only to mop up any resistance from the other side's infantry.That's why the BMP-3 or Bradley are IFVs, they have troops inside but their main goal is to keep the other AFVs besides tank at bay or anything else that may threaten the tanks.IFV means Infantry Fighting Vehicle, the fighting in there means that its to fight the other side's infantry by itself not help your own infantry fight.

On a final note and that resumes what I said an APC disgorge its troops and then flies back to base while an IFV keeps charging and only dismount if its really needed or to consolidate the objective.

I think a tracked APC with no weapons turret would be best (Mechanized infantry has, IIRC, a tendency to forget it's infantry and play tank, but its armor and armament aren't heavy enough for that.), but here's an article you might find useful.
IFV Armament (http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/IFVarm.html)

This is really vague and not particularly helpful...

Alright, VastPrinciples, here's a suggestion:

AT-115 APC

Troop Capacity: 1 infantry squad with gear.

Ok. How big is the squad? RL IFVs carry between 6 and 10 men as a 'standard squad' and that's a big difference. You have to list exact numbers.

Crew: Driver, 2 gunners, commander.

Ok, although most IFVs have only 1 gunner.

Weapons system: Modular, anything from dual machineguns to an artillery cannon to a SAM site.

And artillery cannon? Errr... whatever... if you could even get that to fit and still have a moving vehicle, I dont see the point in carrying a squad with it.

Wheels: Tracked.
Engine: Go for a electric-hybrid style engine to minimize gas usage.
Armor: A lot of it. Enough to protect against multiple rocket hits

MBTs cant withstand multiple rocket hits on the side and rear armour. The BMP 2 has a maximum of 33mm of armour which can be peirced by 30mm rounds. I dont think that with "lots of armour" (however much that is) the tank would be able to move.

Terrain: Should be able to climb a 50 degree slope, and scale obstacles up to 4 feet high. Water capability is a must.
Radar and other equipment: Yup.

lol

Notes: Also, every part should be standardized and easily replaceable/fixable.

For a small fee, say a 4-5 billion dollars, i can send you the blueprints.

pretonia can you halp me build a steath dreadnought.

OOC: Seph, stop thread hijacking

IC: The Imperium would be happy to provide details and blueprints of the Rhino and Land Raider class attack/assault APCs. In exchange we would like similar contributions from your side; to further augment our own technology.

pretonia can you halp me build a steath dreadnought.
Sure. TG me about it though.

OOC: Well for 8 to 10 passenger I doubt thats doable with a tracked vehicle and keep a realistic cost.
.
cough (http://phoenixdynamix.proboards38.com/index.cgi?board=tanks&action=display&num=1099027559)

perhaps different models.

say

AT-115 -G76, with something like a scorpian turret 76 mm light gun.
AT-115 -APC troop carrier with a 30 mill cannon
AT-115 -COM communications and comand module, crew for 7 or 8, two 50 cals in the top, and a command box, without a turret
AT-115 - BL (bridge layer) for use by engineers
AT-115 - MC Mine clearance
AT-115 - RC Recovery vehicle
AT-115 - AFV Army fighting vehicle 30 mill cannon, coaxially mounted 50 cals, flares and rockets
AT-115 -AA 4 multi barreled 20 mm cannons with a radar and coms to satellite and command network
AT-115 RT radar tracking integrated.
AT-115 SAM go figure, a dedicated platform with something like rapier 2000
AT-115 SSM fitted out short range SS cruise missiles, TOWs, wire guided or whatever
AT-115 CL Cable layer, wire layer


basically your mechanised INF BN would have mainly troop carriers, a couple command vehicles, a few AFVs and a few recon vehicles.

your engineers would go with bridge layers, mine clearance, recovery vehicles, road builders etc

you Signals gow ith cable layers, wire layers, comms, radar etc

your SAM pl, coy or bn depending on your structure would have radar, command and sam and AA units.

your basic model frame could be customised into 20 or 30 different variants. and all could be integrated or segregated depending on your structure.

Some go for integrated divisions, Brigades or even BNs.

ie a high tech combat engineers could have a bucket of different equipment as could a mobile inf batallion.

an armoured mechanised inf bn could also have a mix of gear, etc.

look at all the variants for the bradley frame, as well as the old M113 which included command, comms, and 76mm over the years.

with a say 40 plus tonne frame, you could also add bridge laying and airstrip building functions for your combat engineers.

and my favourite the suicide light horse or cavalry regts with a recon role.

use your own definitions, but you build a standard chassis, and its potential is endless.

alt you could sell just the chassis and engine, and let the buying nation customise.

half track and full track options are possible too.

I think a tracked APC with no weapons turret would be best (Mechanized infantry has, IIRC, a tendency to forget it's infantry and play tank, but its armor and armament aren't heavy enough for that.), but here's an article you might find useful.
IFV Armament (http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/IFVarm.html)

Thx, its quite gd that whole site

IC: The Imperium would be happy to provide details and blueprints of the Rhino and Land Raider class attack/assault APCs. In exchange we would like similar contributions from your side; to further augment our own technology.
If you could tell me some info on those APCs i may be very happy to share tech with you and send you info on my R&D.

Kaptaingood: could i use that list to make my own verions please?

The Phoenix Milita: thats like what i was hoping to end up with designed with this APC of mine...something very much like that(in principles i mean)

Always willing to help.

Welcome to NS.

Thx, but im not new to NS, only new to these forums and some of the new nations...i once had a 1.3bil or so pop nation(and i wanted to get my 700mil pop nation back but cant remember the password...)

OOC: You're War in Heaven, right? Do you want to come to The New Commonwealth? It's where most of The Unforgiven people went after it died.

ooc: no worries VP, I was just discussing what other do, its not like I own the ideas.

It might be an idea to go to a military website like the m113 site to see what folks can do (note the M113 is a 10 to 20 tonne vehicle)

if you want to specialise on APCs here are some websites that might help.
I am pretty sure there is a big market for a nation who can specialise in APCs/Tanks etc.
Also suppliers of spare parts are worth their gold, In know many nations find it really to get spares for their older gear, so a 10 year life spare contract is worth the value of the vehicle.

ie an APC is worth $2M, you could prob sell it for $3.8M if you include 10 years worth of supplies with it, including tires, tracks, spare engines. transmissions, etc.

A well thought contract including spares is probably worth more than someone saying $2M for an APC with a whole heap of gear.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m113.htm
http://www.defencemodels.com.au/Projects/AslavVariants.asp
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-vehbiso.htm
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-vehlav.htm
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/

(BTW 10 years ago I was in defence logistics as an instructor in supply systems so sorry if I get a bit boring on occassion, Aus uses ASLAV (LAVIIIs and M113s which have just finished a massive update program despite the chassis being nearly 40 years old they are still pretty awesome units - good for another 10 to 15 years, when they'll be driven by crews who's fathers weren't born when they were first produced!)

cheers

KG