NationStates Jolt Archive

We have a big threat in this world, Cold Blooded Fascists.
That's why i ask all of you to rise against them. We must Unite and fight to suppress the growing beast. A beast that can at any moment unleash it's evil powers against our peaceful motherland.

This will be a fullscale offensive and partly defensive alliance. We have no name, but we'll think of something.

MEMBERS:
Swedish Dominions

the following troops have been mobilized.
500 million ak47 with GP30 grenade launcher equipped soldiers
50 million SA7 anti aircraft missle launchers
100 million Su98 sniper equipped soldiers
2.5 million Ural trucks
2.5 million Kmaz trucks
50000 BMP2 apc
10000 T90 tanks
5000 Mig 31 aircraft, air to air fighter
10000 mi28 helicopter gunship
2000 Tu160 supersonic bombers
8000 AN122 transports

12 ICBMS readied.

ooc: for what reason?

We have a big threat in this world, Cold Blooded Fascists.
That's why i ask all of you to rise against them. We must Unite and fight to suppress the growing beast. A beast that can at any moment unleash it's evil powers against our peaceful motherland.

This will be a fullscale offensive and partly defensive alliance. We have no name, but we'll think of something.

MEMBERS:
Swedish Dominions

Now, just EXACTLY at what freakin time did you realize that FACISTS were endangering COMMUNIST AND DEMOCRACY'S existantces?

the following troops have been mobilized.
500 million ak47 with GP30 grenade launcher equipped soldiers
50 million SA7 anti aircraft missle launchers
100 million Su98 sniper equipped soldiers
2.5 million Ural trucks
2.5 million Kmaz trucks
50000 BMP2 apc
10000 T90 tanks
5000 Mig 31 aircraft, air to air fighter
10000 mi28 helicopter gunship
2000 Tu160 supersonic bombers
8000 AN122 transports

12 ICBMS readied.
Why would you mobilize almost your whole nation with weapons for no reason?

OOC: Swedish Dominions, are you serious? There are a LOT of nations that you just poked a stick at, so to speak...

ooc: for what reason?

OOC: I advise you to ignore the n00b....it's in everyone's best interest....

IC:

The United Empire of Colerica regards itself as a fascist nation. We wish to know why you are making such open aggression against us, a nation currently at peace. Why must you attack us and our Fascisti brethen? Simply because we are fascists?

Regards,

Kircer Danton
Magistrate of Foreign Affairs

cause were pretty mobilized anyway.
under 1 condition. we will only attack facisists if they pose a true threat of national security. we decide to cal lthe shots with our forces on who to attack.
also we require land for a base of operations in this new theater of war.

cause were pretty mobilized anyway.
under 1 condition. we will only attack facisics if they pose a true threat of national security. we decide to cal lthe shots with our forces on who to attack.

::SHOVES A NUKE UP NEW NATIONS BUTT FOR NO OBVIUOUS REASON::

cause were pretty mobilized anyway.

OOC: Okay, n00bie, Uncle Colerica is going to try to educate you a little about good RP'ing......

What you are doing is called Godmodding.....it is annoying....very, very, annoying......Godmodding is cheating, for all intensive purposes. You might be asking, "Why am I Godmodding?" and my answer to that is: I don't know why you are Godmodding, but knock it off. A nation of your size cannot possibly have that many soldiers. It is impossible. You cannot dragoon over half your nation into the service -- even at a time of extreme national emergency. A nation's military should be NO GREATER than FIVE PERCENT (that's about a max, methinks) of its population......at the most, I could put about 100 million people into my military, but that would be insanity as my economy would fall apart.....think about how a nation runs....you can't have a country running to power your war machine if you have more than half your population in uniform......

To reiterate t'day's lesson: Don't Godmod. Take a look at the stickies. They'll tell you how to act in RP'ing.....

Is the lesson over for t'day?

This post has been paid for in part by the WeKnowBest Commission, a branch of the WeSaySo Corporation......

OOC: Okay, n00bie, Uncle Colerica is going to try to educate you a little about good RP'ing......

What you are doing is called Godmodding.....it is annoying....very, very, annoying......Godmodding is cheating, for all intensive purposes. You might be asking, "Why am I Godmodding?" and my answer to that is: I don't know why you are Godmodding, but knock it off. A nation of your size cannot possibly have that many soldiers. It is impossible. You cannot dragoon over half your nation into the service -- even at a time of extreme national emergency. A nation's military should be NO GREATER than FIVE PERCENT (that's about a max, methinks) of its population......at the most, I could put about 100 million people into my military, but that would be insanity as my economy would fall apart.....think about how a nation runs....you can't have a country running to power your war machine if you have more than half your population in uniform......

To reiterate t'day's lesson: Don't Godmod. Take a look at the stickies. They'll tell you how to act in RP'ing.....

Is the lesson over for t'day?

This post has been paid for in part by the WeKnowBest Commission, a branch of the WeSaySo Corporation......

EEEK! HESH SMART!

OOc : i think it 10% not 5 but i could be wrong

jesus havent you ever heard of Ancient Greek Sparta? All males were in the army form 12-50 or something like that!!! I'm just expanding to to all people 12-60 and wasting more than half my budget a year on weaponry and technology and troops. go study some damn history! The greeks required military service, the romans required it to some extent and now im just expanding on a interesting idea while mixing in some semi-communism in with it! besides dont get so serious, its a game. i do this all the time in games like civ 3 or Medeval total war, creating massive armies and just taking over other ai countries for no reason.

If i want to run my country like a communist form of sparta then let me. I am not saying i have more than 6 billion army in a nation with 8 million people. 450 million is entirely possible if everyone eligible for war is forced to participate AND most of my national budget goes into the armed forces. just cause there isnt a country like it now dosent mean there isnt a historical basis for my nation in the past and that it's impossible in the future.

jesus havent you ever heard of Ancient Greek Sparta? All males were in the army form 12-50 or something like that!!! I'm just expanding to to all people 12-60 and wasting about half my budget a year on weaponry and technology. go study some damn history! The greeks required military service, the romans required it to some extent and now im just expanding on a interesting idea while mixing in some semi-communism in with it! besides dont get so serious, its a game. i do this all the time in games like civ 3 or Medeval total war, creating massive armies and just taking over other ai countries for no reason.

*rollseyes at n00bie*

A: Yes, I'm quite familar with the Spartans. For starters, their conscription age was not ages twelve to fifty, as very people people lived past thirty-five at the time. Secondly, they maintained a massive army because they had to.

B: Don't harp at me about history -- I'm a history major, damn it.

C: Semi-Communism? What the hell is semi-Communism? I understand that your nation is a statist slimehole, but that doesn't account for why you are Godmodding....

D: NationStates, must I remind you, is not Civillization III, my young 'o'friend. We like to maintain a non-cheating atmosphere here. You are far too young to have that many soldiers in uniform. Your nation would collapse due to a lack of a workforce. Realism sucks, I know, but we also like to keep that in mind when RP'ing.

E: If you dragooned *all* of your citizens from the age of twelve to the age of sixty, you would have absolutely no workforce. Please tell me you're intelligent enough to realize this.

F: Again, read the stickies. They will tell you all you need to know when it comes to being a good RP'er. If you don't RP correctly, no one will ever want to RP with you.

G: Please show some respect and capitalize the Lord's name. (but that's a discussion for the General forum).

EDIT: H: See this thread: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=367578

That wraps up lesson two.....

* Starts taking notes*

The Emperial Goverment of the Alexian Empire to the goverment of Swedish Dominions, and to everyone else.

These so called "Facists" simply call themselves that out of stupidity and ignorance. They are not truly facists, if we are too use Hitlers NAZI party and Mussulini's Facist party as examples.

They have no trully facist united front, although many calling themselves facists may band together, Facism is, in truth, despite the many arguments and rages this will encur, and dead and extinct ideology.

I do not deny that those who call themselves facists can be dangerous and violent, but I encourage you to ignore those idiotic skinheads who long for an era that occured in lands far away long before they were born.

(K, and new guy, you don't have ICBMs or half the stuff you said either. Play fair and play by the rules, work your way up. The rest of us did.)

The Emperial Goverment of the Alexian Empire to the goverment of Swedish Dominions, and to everyone else.

These so called "Facists" simply call themselves that out of stupidity and ignorance. They are not truly facists, if we are too use Hitlers NAZI party and Mussulini's Facist party as examples.

They have no trully facist united front, although many calling themselves facists may band together, Facism is, in truth, despite the many arguments and rages this will encur, and dead and extinct ideology.

I do not deny that those who call themselves facists can be dangerous and violent, but I encourage you to ignore those idiotic skinheads who long for an era that occured in lands far away long before they were born.

(K, and new guy, you don't have ICBMs or half the stuff you said either. Play fair and play by the rules, work your way up. The rest of us did.)

OOC: Couple of things....it's "fascism." [/spelling Nazi]...and, if you want to dive into history, you could make a strong case that fascism started with the Roman Empire........I consider my nation fascist, for example, because the State owns everyone.......but all this might be stuff for the General forum.....

OOC: Couple of things....it's "fascism." [/spelling Nazi]...and, if you want to dive into history, you could make a strong case that fascism started with the Roman Empire........I consider my nation fascist, for example, because the State owns everyone.......but all this might be stuff for the General forum.....


Thats not Fascim. That's Totalitarianism.

Thats not Fascim. That's Totalitarianism.

Fascism is but one of the many forms of Totalitarianism......

OoC: Being 'younger' on NS than Lost Dynasties myself, I have to quirk an eyebrow at the patronizing use of the term 'n00b'--more often it provokes argument than receptivity. But Colerica definitely has a point (nor do I wish to be confrontational myself). A lot of us on the forums use the thirdgeek website (http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=lost+dynasties) as the model for our military and other state spending (you, by the way, are list as having a military budget of over US$1.7 trillion, which is very respectable by the way), and then poke around in various places for equipment (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=376698) (shameless storefront plug).
In terms of population, though, five percent of the population under arms is pretty huge, and ten percent is, like, the Soviet Union at war against the Nazis. It can't be sustained in peacetime. The Spartans got away with it because--guess what--Sparta's citizen-army was supported by a teeming population of slaves. In reality, the Spartan army consisted of far less than ten percent of the population actually living under Spartan rule. I too am a History Major.
Now, for god's [sic--I'm a Communist, Colerica, we don't respect your jeebus] sake, back on topic.

IC:
The Sovereign People of the Democratic Republic of Vas Pokhoronim formally extend our hand in friendship and alliance to our honorable Comrades in the Swedish Dominions. We furthermore wish to advise both our Swedish Comrades and any and all respondants that the pro-Socialist and anti-Fascist organization of SocAlComm (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=373053&page=1&pp=15) is concurrently being developed with much the same aims in mind.
The SD and other Left-Liberal states are welcome, of course, to take part in this pre-existing institution, but you are also obviously at liberty to develop your own parallel organization, as well. In the latter case, the Sovereign People would like to commence discussions between both our organizations hopefully leading to a mutual defense pact.
With Respect and Hope,
Vkhled Kznynsky, SocAlComm Delegate for the DRVP, former President of the DRVP, General Secretary Candidate for SocAlComm

No, Fascim is Fascim.

Totalitarianism is Totalitarianism.

Even in Nazi Germany it was not totalitarian.

And a totalitarian state can kill a bunch of people from a specific group, that does not make it a facist state.


Fascim is not just murdering a bunch of Jews. Tons of people have done that. Is Syria fascist?

No, Fascim is Fascim.

Totalitarianism is Totalitarianism.

Even in Nazi Germany it was not totalitarian.

And a totalitarian state can kill a bunch of people from a specific group, that does not make it a facist state.


Fascim is not just murdering a bunch of Jews. Tons of people have done that. Is Syria fascist?

Fascism is the idealogy that the government and business should merge to benefit the people, at the expense of the people's freedom. Totalitarianism is simply an oppressive government. Fascism can never avoid being oppressive -- it simply can't happen.

For a definition or two of totalitarianism, all we need to do is turn to our good friends at Wiki....

Totalitarianism is any political system in which a citizen is totally subject to a governing authority in all aspects of day-to-day life. It goes well beyond dictatorship or typical police state measurers, and even beyond those measures required to sustain total war between states. It involves constant indoctrination achieved by propaganda to erase any potential for dissent, by anyone, including most especially the agents of government.

Political scientists generally see totalitarianism as the extreme form of dictatorship.

Benito Mussolini originally applied the term to his own regime (1922–1943) in Italy; Italian fascism became fully totalitarian by 1940. Leon Trotsky applied the term to both fascism and stalinism as "symmetrical phenomena" in his 1936 book Revolution Betrayed. Hannah Arendt (1906–1975) popularized the use of the term totalitarianism (notably in her 1951 book The Origins of Totalitarianism) in order to illustrate the commonalities between Nazism and Stalinism as theories of civics. Some people also dub all fascist and communist regimes as totalitarian — though some fascist regimes, such as Franco's Spain, and Mussolini's Italy before World War II, and some communist regimes, such as Yugoslavia under Tito, the People's Republic of China under Deng Xiaoping and Cuba under Fidel Castro, have authoritarian rather than totalitarian characteristics. Many commentators consider the post-Stalin Soviet Union as a post-totalitarian society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

See fascism:

The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that

* exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual,
* uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
* engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and
* espouses nationalism and sometimes racism or ethnic nationalism.

In an article in the 1932 Enciclopedia Italiana, written by Giovanni Gentile and attributed to Benito Mussolini, fascism is described as a system in which "The State not only is authority which governs and molds individual wills with laws and values of spiritual life, but it is also power which makes its will prevail abroad.... For the Fascist, everything is within the State and... neither individuals or groups are outside the State.... For Fascism, the State is an absolute, before which individuals or groups are only relative."

Mussolini, in a speech delivered on October 28, 1925, stated the following maxim that encapsulates the fascist philosophy: "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato." ("Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State".)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

***

If you want to take it a step further, we could state (with justification) that Germany was not truley fascist under the reign of Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist Worker's Party -- but that's a different kettle of fish.

Syria is not a fascist government. They, like Iran, are run by a totalitarian Islamic regime that controls all aspects of the people's lives....

450 million is entirely possible if everyone eligible for war is forced to participate AND most of my national budget goes into the armed forces. just cause there isnt a country like it now dosent mean there isnt a historical basis for my nation in the past and that it's impossible in the future.

No, 450 million is NOT possible. (Besides, your army of AK47-armed soldiers were FIVE-HUNDRED million, not 50 million LESS.) See, nowadays, they say that for every single soldier in Iraq, there are approximetely 10 other people [in the service] that do the cooking, the washing of the soldier's uniforms, the inspecting of the weapons, the greasing of the tank tread gears, etc... If you conscripted something even close to the percentage of Sparta, you'd go bankrupt in... a day? You can have half your population in RESERVE, but not all of those people would be actual SOLDIERS. Only 50 million of them, at MOST, could possibly even die in combat without you facing unacceptable losses. What's more, I just created my nation today, and it's funny... it said that I had a population of 5 million. Are you saying that you have a population over that of 1 billion, ALREADY? Wow. I congradulate you.


Let's just leave this debate in the immature Newb Vs. Newb format I've just created. I'll make the first shot. Feel free to retaliate with your sniper-bullet-blasted brain...


;) :sniper:
(you) (super-stealthly-impossible-to-see-sniper-with-a-lion-shaped-bullet!)

the following troops have been mobilized.
500 million ak47 with GP30 grenade launcher equipped soldiers
50 million SA7 anti aircraft missle launchers
100 million Su98 sniper equipped soldiers
2.5 million Ural trucks
2.5 million Kmaz trucks
50000 BMP2 apc
10000 T90 tanks
5000 Mig 31 aircraft, air to air fighter
10000 mi28 helicopter gunship
2000 Tu160 supersonic bombers
8000 AN122 transports

12 ICBMS readied.
ooc: Wow that is.....total godmoding. I will put it out simply for you. What you are listing is impossible. You are mobilizing 650 Million troops! Do you realise that that is like five times larger then my current military? Your nations economy would fall totaly and therefore you wouldn't be able to support your military. I hope you do realise that usally a country will have a combat soldier to support soldier ratio of about 1:7, I use 1:8. And the numbers you are talking are just plain impossible.

OoC: Colerica's right on this one. Totalitarianism is a specific form of an oppressive government, but Fascism is an ideology, and Colerica just described its basic precepts pretty succinctly.

Fascism is the idealogy that the government and business should merge to benefit the people, at the expense of the people's freedom. Totalitarianism is simply an oppressive government. Fascism can never avoid being oppressive -- it simply can't happen.

For a definition or two of totalitarianism, all we need to do is turn to our good friends at Wiki....



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

See fascism:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

***

If you want to take it a step further, we could state (with justification) that Germany was not truley fascist under the reign of Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist Worker's Party -- but that's a different kettle of fish.

Syria is not a fascist government. They, like Iran, are run by a totalitarian Islamic regime that controls all aspects of the people's lives....


I was not saying Syria was Fascist. I was using it as an example for how you do not become fascist just by the murder of Jews.

Fascism is traditionally the rule under a goverment that belives that one nation and one race is inherently superior, and acts as such.

Yes, often Totalitarianism is incorperated into fascim.

In fact, I do not belive that there has been a non-totalitarian fascist state.

Now, my argument was that you were not fascist, as you said that you were fascist simply because the goverment owned and controlled everything. Now, I agree with what you said about the definition of fascism, and all those excerpts from that great website, but there you have it. Things proving my point.

Totalitarianism does not neccesarily equal fascism, which is what you based your claim of fascism on earlier.

"My Nation is fascist because the goverment controls everything"(I'm paraphrasing)

There you have it, I am right.

I do not mean to be an ass, and do not want to start a nasty argument or prove that I am smarter, I just do not like too see the misuse of terms and words.

OoC: Colerica's right on this one. Totalitarianism is a specific form of an oppressive government, but Fascism is an ideology, and Colerica just described its basic precepts pretty succinctly.

OOC: I love that word! It reminds me of the scene from Robin Hood: Men in Tights.....

"You've been bothered by this fruit, Robin Hood. And you want him eliminated, taken out, possibly even killed."

"Yes, you put it succinctly."

"Suck what?"

"Succinctly. It means perfectly."

:)

I am not mobilizing 650 million troops!!!!!! those are the weapons shipped. obviously you need backup supplies in war.

I am mobilizing in the range of 400million goverment workers/troops. of course under my current program all goverment workers are issued firearms for defense purposes.

lets crunch some numbers!!!
806million
-400million troops
406million
-150million under 12 (unable to work due to age laws) about 18% under 12 is a GOOD number
256 million
-25million disabled/unable to work due to health or mental constraint
231million
-25million goverment bearucrats(janitors/dictator/street sweepers/ road repairmen, teachers etc.)
-6million police to keep guard against the decreased homeland population
200 million
-100 million farmers using modern equipment 1/8 ratio comparable to the ratio of farmers in america
100million
-99 million heavy industry
1million
-1 million top CEOs and other guys not making machines of war but supporting the trade business or managing the factories.
ALSO PUPPET STATE Forgotten Wars Pop 817million will supply anything else needed during the war effort for Lost Dynasties.

I understand that this would be a hard life leaving the populace with almost no personal goods but this is a communist state and that all non-needed extras like research would come to a stop but it worksout in the end.

1) all minors live at school so no guardians except teachers are needed
2) all non-essential goverment employees (researchers, extra janitors, etc) are pushed into the armed servce.
3) all able bodied people except certain needed jobs listed above are drafted into the army/navy/marines/air force.
4) trade still commences due to the selling off of all unused/unrequired products created in heavy industry.

5) all needed supplies can be obtained from allies in my region or my puppet state Forgotten Wars
6) It's works cause of fear of the dictator.

I was not saying Syria was Fascist. I was using it as an example for how you do not become fascist just by the murder of Jews.


Who said anything about Jews?


Fascism is traditionally the rule under a goverment that belives that one nation and one race is inherently superior, and acts as such.

That is uber-nationalism, ie National Socialism. Holding one's nation/race superior to all other nations/races is a central tenet of the National Socialist's manifesto.....


Yes, often Totalitarianism is incorperated into fascim.

In fact, I do not belive that there has been a non-totalitarian fascist state.


There can't, by logic, be a non-totalitarian fascist state.....


Now, my argument was that you were not fascist, as you said that you were fascist simply because the goverment owned and controlled everything. Now, I agree with what you said about the definition of fascism, and all those excerpts from that great website, but there you have it. Things proving my point.

De-wup, said the brown pup. You are leaving something out, my friend, from what I said. "For example" was a clear part of my statement, in case you missed it:

I consider my nation fascist, for example, because the State owns everyone......

In Nazi Germany, there was nothing the National Socialists couldn't do to their people. They, for all intensive purposes, owned them. You saw the same, to a lesser degree, in Fascisti Italy.....this is a throw-back, if you will, to the Roman Empire -- where there was little to nothing stopping the Emperor from doing anything he wanted with his subjects......the Roman Empire was totalitarian......Nazi Germany was totalitarian....Fascisti Italy was totalitarian.......Ba'athist Iraq was totalitarian....Taliban Afghanistan was totalitarian.......et al ad infinitium......


Totalitarianism does not neccesarily equal fascism, which is what you based your claim of fascism on earlier.

Totalitarianism can't equal fascism, because fascism is inherently a part of totalitarianism. The NFL can't equal the Buffalo Bills because the Buffalo Bills are a part of the NFL. Seeing what I'm saying?


There you have it, I am right.

I didn't know this was a matter of proving one another wrong or right.....


I do not mean to be an ass, and do not want to start a nasty argument or prove that I am smarter, I just do not like too see the misuse of terms and words.

Niether do I....

OOC: Jeezzzz some of you guys need to take a political science classes. I sure hope that their are people on this forum that know what a quasi-democray is, cause that is what i play as. Just stay away from any polly sci class with the world "Thought" in it because then your forced into reading Thomas Hobbes Leviathan (recommanded for Fascist nations), Plato's The Republic and St Augustine's City of God , which is one of the most boring political philosophy books ever written.

Your examples are wrong.

You see, supreme power official power does not equal totalitarianism

Take the example of The Roman Empire. The Emperor COULD force anyone to do anything, he COULD have made a totalitarian state, but none of the emperor's did that. If you would read up on the subject, you would see that in Rome there were countless merchants and bussinessmen who decided what they would do on there own without any involvement from the emperor.

The same goes for Bathist Iraq.

Dictatorial Power does not make totalitarianism, just as totalitarianism does not make Fascism.

Fascist states were not always totalitarian as you said. Look at Thailand under king....whats his name, you know, the facist?

I lost my train of thought....Could I come back too this? Sorry, this happens to me alot, as you may have guessed from my earlier ramblings.

Watching TV makes you forget what you were going to say sometimes.

Sorry.

Your examples are wrong.

How, per se?


You see, supreme power official power does not equal totalitarianism

Oh, but it does. Totalitarianism is a government with supreme power over its citizens.

Yet another definition:

totalitarianism


(ttl´´târ´nzm) (KEY) , a modern autocratic government in which the state involves itself in all facets of society, including the daily life of its citizens. A totalitarian government seeks to control not only all economic and political matters but the attitudes, values, and beliefs of its population, erasing the distinction between state and society. The citizen’s duty to the state becomes the primary concern of the community, and the goal of the state is the replacement of existing society with a perfect society. 1
Various totalitarian systems, however, have different ideological goals. For example, of the states most commonly described as totalitarian—the Soviet Union under Stalin, Nazi Germany, and the People’s Republic of China under Mao—the Communist regimes of the Soviet Union and China sought the universal fulfillment of humankind through the establishment of a classless society (see communism); German National Socialism, on the other hand, attempted to establish the superiority of the so-called Aryan race. 2

Characteristics
Despite the many differences among totalitarian states, they have several characteristics in common, of which the two most important are: the existence of an ideology that addresses all aspects of life and outlines means to attain the final goal, and a single mass party through which the people are mobilized to muster energy and support. The party is generally led by a dictator and, typically, participation in politics, especially voting, is compulsory. The party leadership maintains monopoly control over the governmental system, which includes the police, military, communications, and economic and education systems. Dissent is systematically suppressed and people terrorized by a secret police. Autocracies through the ages have attempted to exercise control over the lives of their subjects, by whatever means were available to them, including the use of secret police and military force. However, only with modern technology have governments acquired the means to control society; therefore, totalitarianism is, historically, a recent phenomenon. 3
By the 1960s there was a sharp decline in the concept’s popularity among scholars. Subsequently, the decline in Soviet centralization after Stalin, research into Nazism revealing significant inefficiency and improvisation, and the Soviet collapse may have reduced the utility of the concept to that of an ideal or abstract type. In addition, constitutional democracy and totalitarianism, as forms of the modern state, share many characteristics. In both, those in authority have a monopoly on the use of the nation’s military power and on certain forms of mass communication; and the suppression of dissent, especially during times of crisis, often occurs in democracies as well. Moreover, one-party systems are found in some nontotalitarian states, as are government-controlled economies and dictators. 4

Causes
There is no single cause for the growth of totalitarian tendencies. There may be theoretical roots in the collectivist political theories of Plato Jean Jacques Rousseau, and Karl Marx. But the emergence of totalitarian forms of government is probably more the result of specific historical forces. For example, the chaos that followed in the wake of World War I allowed or encouraged the establishment of totalitarian regimes in Russia, Italy, and Germany, while the sophistication of modern weapons and communications enabled them to extend and consolidate their power.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/to/totalita.html


Take the example of The Roman Empire. The Emperor COULD force anyone to do anything, he COULD have made a totalitarian state, but none of the emperor's did that.

What in blazes do you call Nero? Caligula? Don't you see that totalitarianism was a central tenet to the Roman Empire? You must understand that totalitarianism, imperial ideology, and limitation of individual freedom are all implicit in the idea of the Roman Empire.


If you would read up on the subject, you would see that in Rome there were countless merchants and bussinessmen who decided what they would do on there own without any involvement from the emperor.

Don't you sass me -- I'm well-read on the Roman Empire.


Dictatorial Power does not make totalitarianism, just as totalitarianism does not make Fascism.

Totalitarianism is full control of your nation's people and everything they do. A dictatorship, by nature, is totalitarian. Yes, you can benelovent (sp?) dictators, but the fact remains that dictatorships are inherently totalitarian.

Your examples are wrong.

You see, supreme power official power does not equal totalitarianism

Take the example of The Roman Empire. The Emperor COULD force anyone to do anything, he COULD have made a totalitarian state, but none of the emperor's did that. If you would read up on the subject, you would see that in Rome there were countless merchants and bussinessmen who decided what they would do on there own without any involvement from the emperor.

The same goes for Bathist Iraq.

Dictatorial Power does not make totalitarianism, just as totalitarianism does not make Fascism.

Fascist states were not always totalitarian as you said. Look at Thailand under king....whats his name, you know, the facist?

I lost my train of thought....Could I come back too this? Sorry, this happens to me alot, as you may have guessed from my earlier ramblings.

Watching TV makes you forget what you were going to say sometimes.

Sorry.

Hi. First of all, stop smoking crack, it's bad for you. Please provide a modern day example of totalitarinism and fascism not going hand in hand, because both are the end of democracy, the end of personal freedom and in it's replacement the rule of one, the denial of anybody elses rights or thoughts. Facism is the gradual erosion of democracy, which leads to totalitarinism.

Take todays most striking example of totalitarism, the US government. Now, I know this may seem a bit radical "im a god damn communist detractor of the greatest liberal and free state ever to exist omgz i nuke you unpatrioctic bastard" but the president has total power. And he makes sure EVERYBODY goes along with what his agenda is, and if you dont, you want recieve any attention from the media, and you'll only be ridiculed.

Take todays most striking example of totalitarism, the US government. Now, I know this may seem a bit radical "im a god damn communist detractor of the greatest liberal and free state ever to exist omgz i nuke you unpatrioctic bastard" but the president has total power. And he makes sure EVERYBODY goes along with what his agenda is, and if you dont, you want recieve any attention from the media, and you'll only be ridiculed.

Err.......*thinks about touching this post.....pokes it once or twice....the post replies with "hoo-hoo" similar to the Pillsbury Doughboy.....laughs...decides to reply....*

While the US government is FAR bigger than I ever wish it to be, I would not quite call it totalitarian. Moreover, the Congress truely has the most power when you look at it. They continually give themselves more power by informally amending the Constitution due to the Necessary and Proper Clause. By continually making subtle implied power changes, the Congress has rapidly gained power of the years. Think about it. They pass a bill. The bill goes to the President. The President decides to veto the bill. Congress convenes and overrides the President's veto with a rare 2/3 majority. Uncommon, but it has happened. In my eyes, the Congress has the true power.....

this Is Thread Hijacking!
If A Mod Sees This Please Close The Thread

No, stop, don't. Help. Help. Police. Police.

Lol, what i meant is that the thread has been hijacked :D and that it should be closed!

Here, Colecria, listen.

Nero was not a totalitarian. Dictatorship does not equal totalitarianism.


Let me break it down for you.

A dictator does have the authority to do whatever he wishes with his people, and many of them do and have done.

But totalitarianism is the control of everything(or near everything.)

Just because someone has the power to create and instate totalitarianism does not make it totalitarian.

For example.

Rome.

Emperor may do whatever he likes officially. But, looka at the rest.

There are the wealthy merchant families and members of the nobility.

There are the generals and religious figures who can rally support to there side.

There are the occasional men of the people who can rally much support from the poor.

Now, say the emperor starts telling the merchant families to give him every penny of there profits, they will not like this. They will cut the emperor off and start paying for troops to take him out.

The generals can do likewise, and so on.

Nero. The only reason Nero got away with what he did for so long is because the army continued to back him. Withoutht the army, none of it could have happened.

And then, sometimes people are not even interested in totalitarianism.

Look at Afghanistan under the Taliban Militia.
Taliban is all there, I will shoot you if you do not pray tralalala.
BUT!
They do not give a shit about the guy who is selling pies in the street. They could not care less. Guy sells pies, feeds his family, all the power in the world too him. The do not dictate his everyday activities, they do not tell him when he should start selling his pies in the morning, they do not tell him who to buy wheat from. They will shoot him if he pisses them off, but quite frankly, him and his pies do not concern them. Now if he were to start saying DOWN WITHT THE TALIBAN! THEY ARE AN INSULT TO ISLAM! then they would care, they would take action, namely icing him. But they do not care about his daily bussiness, or his friends, or how many children he has, or weather he participates in the community meetings or anything of that sort.

This is dictatorship, NOT TOTALITARIANISM.

Now, say China under Mista Mao.

They did tell you how many children to have, they did tell you where to work, they did tell you that you could not wear that clothing, they did tell you not too paint those paintings, they did tell you not too buy those shoes, they did tell you where to throw out your garbage, they did have files on you from everything you did up until your last shit.

This is totalitarianism. It is a dictatorship, but it is a dictatorship, but it is a totalitarian society.

In Iraq, sure, they would kill you if you started saying down with the goverment and attacking soldiers, but they would not kill you because you did not pray last saturday. Sure, they COULD, and maybe it even pissed them off, but quite frankly, they don't care.

Dictatorship and totalitarianism are two different things. You CAN have a non-totalitarian dictatorship. Its quite simple.

Look at Rome.



And I agree, men in tights was a wonderfull movie. Loved it.

I espicially liked it when Mel Brooks made his apperance as the Rabbi.

He was great.

Cuba is sending

3 fleets of 200 ships
60,000 trained troops
3 squadrons of 200 planes

Here, Colecria, listen.

Nero was not a totalitarian. Dictatorship does not equal totalitarianism.


Let me break it down for you.

A dictator does have the authority to do whatever he wishes with his people, and many of them do and have done.

But totalitarianism is the control of everything(or near everything.)

Just because someone has the power to create and instate totalitarianism does not make it totalitarian.

For example.

Rome.

Emperor may do whatever he likes officially. But, looka at the rest.

There are the wealthy merchant families and members of the nobility.

There are the generals and religious figures who can rally support to there side.

There are the occasional men of the people who can rally much support from the poor.

Now, say the emperor starts telling the merchant families to give him every penny of there profits, they will not like this. They will cut the emperor off and start paying for troops to take him out.

The generals can do likewise, and so on.

Nero. The only reason Nero got away with what he did for so long is because the army continued to back him. Withoutht the army, none of it could have happened.

And then, sometimes people are not even interested in totalitarianism.

Look at Afghanistan under the Taliban Militia.
Taliban is all there, I will shoot you if you do not pray tralalala.
BUT!
They do not give a shit about the guy who is selling pies in the street. They could not care less. Guy sells pies, feeds his family, all the power in the world too him. The do not dictate his everyday activities, they do not tell him when he should start selling his pies in the morning, they do not tell him who to buy wheat from. They will shoot him if he pisses them off, but quite frankly, him and his pies do not concern them. Now if he were to start saying DOWN WITHT THE TALIBAN! THEY ARE AN INSULT TO ISLAM! then they would care, they would take action, namely icing him. But they do not care about his daily bussiness, or his friends, or how many children he has, or weather he participates in the community meetings or anything of that sort.

This is dictatorship, NOT TOTALITARIANISM.

Now, say China under Mista Mao.

They did tell you how many children to have, they did tell you where to work, they did tell you that you could not wear that clothing, they did tell you not too paint those paintings, they did tell you not too buy those shoes, they did tell you where to throw out your garbage, they did have files on you from everything you did up until your last shit.

This is totalitarianism. It is a dictatorship, but it is a dictatorship, but it is a totalitarian society.

In Iraq, sure, they would kill you if you started saying down with the goverment and attacking soldiers, but they would not kill you because you did not pray last saturday. Sure, they COULD, and maybe it even pissed them off, but quite frankly, they don't care.

Dictatorship and totalitarianism are two different things. You CAN have a non-totalitarian dictatorship. Its quite simple.

Look at Rome.



And I agree, men in tights was a wonderfull movie. Loved it.

I espicially liked it when Mel Brooks made his apperance as the Rabbi.

He was great.

OOC: Alexias, you have been provided with evidence which shows your ideas to be incorrect (putting it nicely), also your historical examples are completely off especially your analysis.

Please, can you and Colerica take this up in PM or on the general forum :)

Sorry SD, thought I would ask them to be sensible... /thread hijack

OOC: Last time i checked, Fascists and Nazi's were two entirely different groups..

OOC: Technicaly National Socialism and Fascism differ in some levels, a single figure in control of the government, belligerant nationalism and racial policies make up alot of national socialism. Where they do differ is NS lean towards national expansion and state control over the economy. FAscism has strict rules in place for socioeconomic programs. Fascism suppresses all other opposition through censorship and terrorism. National Socialism most commonly uses propaganda and terrorism to suppress their oponents.

They are both a form of totalitarianism, since one man has supreme control over the entire country.

A definiation of Totalitarianism.
Relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: “A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).

: a form of government in which the ruler is an absolute dictator (not restricted by a constitution or laws or opposition etc.) [syn: dictatorship, absolutism, authoritarianism, Caesarism, despotism, monocracy, one-man rule, shogunate, Stalinism, tyranny] 2: the principle of complete and unrestricted power in government [syn: absolutism, totalism]

So in effect a fascist state is a totalitarian state, and such, which I believe we've already proven. Anyways Fascism is like the grandfather of national socialism, since Hitler borrowed ideologies from fascism I believe. He expanded on the nationalist feelings and national expansion.

Continued arguing of who is right or wrong gets no where, since neither side will accept the other has valid points. It's how the internet works.

Note: All info gathered on above political stances was gathered from www.dictionary.com.

IC:

The National Socialist Union of Iraqstan, fully dismisses the war mongering claims of Swedish Dominions they are proving once and for all that nations of a non-fascist regime are war mongering buffoons that require cleansing and enlightenement to understand the true ascension to purity is through the nationalist unifying of the world.

The führer, Carlos Quil'raya dismisses the threats of violence made by this unenlightened barbarianist state and will continue to stand by his claims of national sovreigncy in that it is perfectly within his right to run his nation as he see's fit. Outside intervention will not be tolerated.

http://img69.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Spaar/Nationstates/ministera.jpg
Minister for Arrogance

OOC: Alexias, you have been provided with evidence which shows your ideas to be incorrect (putting it nicely), also your historical examples are completely off especially your analysis.

Please, can you and Colerica take this up in PM or on the general forum :)

Sorry SD, thought I would ask them to be sensible... /thread hijack



Listen man, just because someone quotes a website does not make them right.

Hell, the first page I found of Wipedeka was the one on totalitarianism.

But all you guys keep doing is quoting the same thing over and over and not even reading what I say.

I do not belive that you know what you are talking about.




Although you are right, we have ruined the thread.

Sorry.

OOC: Technicaly National Socialism and Fascism differ in some levels, a single figure in control of the government, belligerant nationalism and racial policies make up alot of national socialism. Where they do differ is NS lean towards national expansion and state control over the economy. FAscism has strict rules in place for socioeconomic programs. Fascism suppresses all other opposition through censorship and terrorism. National Socialism most commonly uses propaganda and terrorism to suppress their oponents.

They are both a form of totalitarianism, since one man has supreme control over the entire country.

A definiation of Totalitarianism.
Relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: “A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).

: a form of government in which the ruler is an absolute dictator (not restricted by a constitution or laws or opposition etc.) [syn: dictatorship, absolutism, authoritarianism, Caesarism, despotism, monocracy, one-man rule, shogunate, Stalinism, tyranny] 2: the principle of complete and unrestricted power in government [syn: absolutism, totalism]

So in effect a fascist state is a totalitarian state, and such, which I believe we've already proven. Anyways Fascism is like the grandfather of national socialism, since Hitler borrowed ideologies from fascism I believe. He expanded on the nationalist feelings and national expansion.

Continued arguing of who is right or wrong gets no where, since neither side will accept the other has valid points. It's how the internet works.

Note: All info gathered on above political stances was gathered from www.dictionary.com.

IC:

The National Socialist Union of Iraqstan, fully dismisses the war mongering claims of Swedish Dominions they are proving once and for all that nations of a non-fascist regime are war mongering buffoons that require cleansing and enlightenement to understand the true ascension to purity is through the nationalist unifying of the world.

The führer, Carlos Quil'raya dismisses the threats of violence made by this unenlightened barbarianist state and will continue to stand by his claims of national sovreigncy in that it is perfectly within his right to run his nation as he see's fit. Outside intervention will not be tolerated.

http://img69.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Spaar/Nationstates/ministera.jpg
Minister for Arrogance



The NAZI party was in fact Fascist, however much it called itself Nationalist Socialists, were blatantly Fascist, and you may not deny that.

Fascism, as I was saying, no, does not always constitute totalitarianism or even dictatorship.

In the famous cases though, it was fashioned under dictatorship, but again, look at NAZI Germany. Bussinessess could operate on there own, whatnot.


And my examples were never proven wrong.

When? How? What are you talking about?

Sel Appa applauds this, but we can not currently commit any troops, as we are finishing up a war against a rebel province of ours...

You wrote some stuff

If you're going to totaly not read what I say in the last moments then please, dont comment when it obviously isnt open for debate. That being said I'll explain my comments to you since obviously you cannot get past your own ego to read it properly.

Note I said and continuing the argument of who is right or wrong is pointless, since neither side will accept the other has valid points. Lets try and explain this a bit easier for you.

Hmm, nope cant make it more obvious than how it's stated. I also fail to see where I specified whose examples where proven wrong, you seem quick to deny any wrongness in your examples, perhaps they are flawed and you dont want to admit it? But anyways I'm going to follow my own advice and not bother to continue to argue with you since you refuse to acknowledge anyone elses points as having a valid basis. Good bye and good luck with your wanking, hope your hand doesnt burn out.

The End.

If you're going to totaly not read what I say in the last moments then please, dont comment when it obviously isnt open for debate. That being said I'll explain my comments to you since obviously you cannot get past your own ego to read it properly.

Note I said and continuing the argument of who is right or wrong is pointless, since neither side will accept the other has valid points. Lets try and explain this a bit easier for you.

Hmm, nope cant make it more obvious than how it's stated. I also fail to see where I specified whose examples where proven wrong, you seem quick to deny any wrongness in your examples, perhaps they are flawed and you dont want to admit it? But anyways I'm going to follow my own advice and not bother to continue to argue with you since you refuse to acknowledge anyone elses points as having a valid basis. Good bye and good luck with your wanking, hope your hand doesnt burn out.

The End.



Holy Shit.

Impressive.

You insult me on a number of levels without actually making any good arguments your self, and then talk about me jacking off. Your argumentative skill have wowed me, I must now admit that I was wrong. I mean, you talked about me jacking off, how can I top that? Holy shit, that just takes the vote right there.

You truly are a masted debater. Next!