NationStates Jolt Archive

All OOC comments go in here, NOT in the IC thread.

IC thread: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=7565323

Original thread: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=376172

I'm just interested in how you will be able to precisely identify the sub as belonging to the Macabees.

tag

tag

tag for tech and tactics commentary...

I'm just interested in how you will be able to precisely identify the sub as belonging to the Macabees.


In time Vrak. I already know how I'm going to do this, and it will work.

tag for tech and tactics commentary...

NE..its Romania from W@W so im basically using your tech.

[OOC: Generally modern sonar systems have libraries of sound tracks from a variety of sources allowing the processors to differentiate between natural sounds (whales, etc.), which are excluded, and man-made sounds, such as submarines. Different types of submarines, including differences between submarines of similar classes, can be categorised and classified.]

o.o.c. Auto mind if I join in with some spec-ops to help. You can icly refuse them if you want.

o.o.c. Auto mind if I join in with some spec-ops to help. You can icly refuse them if you want.

Sure, once the ground war starts.

Great. I need to get back into my rping groove.

AMF: Will all due respect, this it the OOC thread. The sooner you lay your cards on the table and demonstrate what you will do, the sooner further misunderstandings and flaming can be minimized.

Isselmere: That’s what I was alluding to earlier in the other thread, although I was just making a logical assumption. Whether or not AMF (or for that matter anyone) has an extensive library of sound tracks of all the subs in the NS universe is unlikely. I’m sure one can reasonably assume that they have a sound track of all their own subs, allied subs, other nations that they want to keep an eye on, and possibly their most threatening nation’s enemy subs. I think reliability can be put on a scale here, with their own subs sound track being the most reliable information and their enemies the least.

AMF: Will all due respect, this it the OOC thread. The sooner you lay your cards on the table and demonstrate what you will do, the sooner further misunderstandings and flaming can be minimized.



Vrak, if i were to reveal my plan of attack, that would not only be foolish but it could cost me big time because you cannot tell me that he would not manage to work in that OOC knowledge. We all do it.

Since you are so intent on knowing, I TM'd it to you.

I'll always offer support to my allies. This time, I'm gonna work out how my troops move. I've lost quite a few lately due to errors on my part.

I'll probably just help out with some SOET and a battalion of vipers (gotta try 'em out in battle). If I get the go ahead of course.

Just a note on my cruiser. I use an improved version of the Silex missile - slightly longer range and much deeper-diving and faster torpedo, because it's made from titanium and composites, plus an upgraded sonar.

Range (missile): ~60Km
Range (torpedo): ~8,500m
Depth: ~3,100m (never-exceed)
Speed: ~48 knots
Guidance system acquisition range: ~2,500m (ideal conditions, obviously).

OOC: OVERSIGHT could also backtrack the submarine from older records, though this would take some time and is by no means conclusive. We might know where a submarine came from, but this does not prove it was that nations submarine.

OOC: OVERSIGHT could also backtrack the submarine from older records, though this would take some time and is by no means conclusive. We might know where a submarine came from, but this does not prove it was that nations submarine.


TM, Vastiva.

Moving this from the other thread - sorry, I didn't read all the way through, but I'd love an answer to this one.


OOC:

Samtonia - The missile doesn't need to have coordinates of the fleet to be successful, it just has to fire in the right direction, and it has to be given roundabout coordinates - so it doesn't need to be constantly updated by a sattelite. It just needs coordinates given to it by the submarine crew (which come from an ELF, or SSIXS transmission, which is sattelite transmitted, but is only a single transmission).

The torpedo has a LIDAR/SONAR guidance system, meaning it has nothing to do with sattelites.

OOC: How does a supercavitating torpedo have "LIDAR/SONAR" guidance, considering all the noise the supercavitation head creates in front of the torpedo?

And without having any sort of satellite or drone guidance, which is how we get around that problem.

Just call me Captain Obvious.

TM, Vastiva.

*salutes* Sir, I trust you to the utmost. I merely mention an option - and its limitation.

AMF: Will all due respect, this it the OOC thread. The sooner you lay your cards on the table and demonstrate what you will do, the sooner further misunderstandings and flaming can be minimized.

Isselmere: That’s what I was alluding to earlier in the other thread, although I was just making a logical assumption. Whether or not AMF (or for that matter anyone) has an extensive library of sound tracks of all the subs in the NS universe is unlikely. I’m sure one can reasonably assume that they have a sound track of all their own subs, allied subs, other nations that they want to keep an eye on, and possibly their most threatening nation’s enemy subs. I think reliability can be put on a scale here, with their own subs sound track being the most reliable information and their enemies the least.
Merely presenting a possibility, though I doubt it would be difficult to obtain files on other nations' ship noises through allies, some of whom might have Maccabee subs on file, hence... Considering how many MP3 tracks one can store on an I-Pod or other device, the amount of high quality recordings maintained on a sub's computer, or other ship's computer, would likely be quite vast. Certainly, one's own and one's allies ships would be the most likely held in such files, but that the Maccabees, as a threat nation, wouldn't be acquired, would be surprising. Again, merely a possibility.

Sooo, will I be able to use my own tech level in this conflict?

During the Cold War and even today, the US had a signature of every soviet sub on computer databases on every one of their subs. The Soviet collection wasn't quite as large as their SONAR wasn't effective and neighter were their computers.

Moving this from the other thread - sorry, I didn't read all the way through, but I'd love an answer to this one.



OOC: How does a supercavitating torpedo have "LIDAR/SONAR" guidance, considering all the noise the supercavitation head creates in front of the torpedo?

And without having any sort of satellite or drone guidance, which is how we get around that problem.

Just call me Captain Obvious.


I hate to contradict my own ally, but how does a supercav torpedo make noise in front of itself? Movement noise cannont be generated where an object moving in water is not. Furthermore, while I agree that sonar would be pretty useless, ladar/lidar is not.

However, this does not change the fact that supercavs make a ton of noise and any sub spotted launching a missile can be pinpointed and hunted down with relative ease.

Isselmere: That’s what I was alluding to earlier in the other thread, although I was just making a logical assumption. Whether or not AMF (or for that matter anyone) has an extensive library of sound tracks of all the subs in the NS universe is unlikely. I’m sure one can reasonably assume that they have a sound track of all their own subs, allied subs, other nations that they want to keep an eye on, and possibly their most threatening nation’s enemy subs. I think reliability can be put on a scale here, with their own subs sound track being the most reliable information and their enemies the least.With all due respect, to say it's unlikely that anyone would have such an extensive library is a reach if it's assumed that NS technology is more advanced than RL technology is. If "modern" technology is loosely defined as including the 2005-2015 timeframe, there are a number of technologies that are not available right now [November 27, 2004] that can be included in that umbrella (for instance, weapons systems that are being tested right now or are projected to be available within 10 years.

Going a bit further, The Macabees would be a country at the very least that would be considered a nation that AMF would "want to keep its eye on." Perhaps it'd be considered "the most threatening nation" but that's for AMF's intelligence and military operation to decide. Under either parameter, Macabeean subs could reasonably be expected to be part of the library of nations that would be examined carefully.

I hate to contradict my own ally, but how does a supercav torpedo make noise in front of itself? Movement noise cannont be generated where an object moving in water is not. Furthermore, while I agree that sonar would be pretty useless, ladar/lidar is not.

However, this does not change the fact that supercavs make a ton of noise and any sub spotted launching a missile can be pinpointed and hunted down with relative ease.

More that the noise generated by an object moving at high velocity in the water renders passive sonar, at the very least, essentially useless (re: American and Soviet subs chasing one another during the Cold War: the Americans would speed off chasing a Soviet sub at 25 kts, sometimes greater, and lose it, forcing reacquisition of the target - of course, they'd have time to note the general direction in which the opposition sub was travelling first). Something moving up to 70kts. (like some modern RL torpedoes) can use active sonar to track and attack targets, but, of course, they reveal their position by doing so. Supercavitation also renders manoeuvrability rather difficult, as breaking the bubble, highly likely with many turns, would like result in the destruction, the damaging, or at least loss of acquisition of the weapon. Then, as you've noted, the noise of the rocket motor would be like a death metal band in a senior's home.

I hate to contradict my own ally, but how does a supercav torpedo make noise in front of itself? Movement noise cannont be generated where an object moving in water is not. Furthermore, while I agree that sonar would be pretty useless, ladar/lidar is not.

However, this does not change the fact that supercavs make a ton of noise and any sub spotted launching a missile can be pinpointed and hunted down with relative ease.

I was refering to the SONAR part... sorry I wasn't clearer.

Merely presenting a possibility, though I doubt it would be difficult to obtain files on other nations' ship noises through allies, some of whom might have Maccabee subs on file, hence... Considering how many MP3 tracks one can store on an I-Pod or other device, the amount of high quality recordings maintained on a sub's computer, or other ship's computer, would likely be quite vast. Certainly, one's own and one's allies ships would be the most likely held in such files, but that the Maccabees, as a threat nation, wouldn't be acquired, would be surprising. Again, merely a possibility.

Depends on the type of intelligence I suppose. Do even allies share everything with eachother?

With all due respect, to say it's unlikely that anyone would have such an extensive library is a reach if it's assumed that NS technology is more advanced than RL technology is. If "modern" technology is loosely defined as including the 2005-2015 timeframe, there are a number of technologies that are not available right now [November 27, 2004] that can be included in that umbrella (for instance, weapons systems that are being tested right now or are projected to be available within 10 years.

Going a bit further, The Macabees would be a country at the very least that would be considered a nation that AMF would "want to keep its eye on." Perhaps it'd be considered "the most threatening nation" but that's for AMF's intelligence and military operation to decide. Under either parameter, Macabeean subs could reasonably be expected to be part of the library of nations that would be examined carefully.

It does not necesarily follow that advances in technology suddenly means a wild expansion in databases unless the advances were utilized, be it on civilian or military hardware. I think it might be a bit harder to obtain information (without tipping your hand) on enemy submarines since that nation will take pains to activly discourage such intelligence. Yes, I know about satellites, spies, and whatnot, but with all that information someone has to put the pieces together and form a working theory. Not saying anyone can't do it, but it partially depends on how fast the intelligence can be gathered in the first place. There are more conclusive ways than others to obtain what you want.

As well, do allies always pass along information that they get to eachother?

NATO does. We may assume that OMP does as well.

NATO does. We may assume that OMP does as well.

Then, I think it comes down to whom within those organizations have had contact with Macabbean subs.

Before I get involved, I want to clear that I won't be ignored on the grounds of my technology.
I'm already assuming my starships will give me an unfair advantage, so I'll leave them out, including dropship deployments etc. However, HyperSoar bombers will be used, as they come under near-modern.
My stealth subs; The Domination class are the next generation after the Supremacy, which I've already seen AMF using (I'm assuming here they're my subs and not just a sub class with the same name), their basic upgrade being a cooling system so there's no clear IR signature, the main weakness of the Supremacy.
I'll assume there's no problem with kilometre-long battleships etc since we all know their inherent weaknesses.
Mechs: I'll be leaving out the uber-gigantic-mecha-of-D00mZ0Rz, but the two small (3 or so metres tall) mech classes I intend to use.
Assuming no-one has any objections I shall be joining the conflict.

About Presgrief you said you were FT, ill talk to Mac and we'll see if one of our FT allies could come in to balance it and make it fair but again its all up to Mac.

[tag for possible future involvement]

Moving this from the other thread - sorry, I didn't read all the way through, but I'd love an answer to this one.



OOC: How does a supercavitating torpedo have "LIDAR/SONAR" guidance, considering all the noise the supercavitation head creates in front of the torpedo?

And without having any sort of satellite or drone guidance, which is how we get around that problem.

Just call me Captain Obvious.

Lidar doesn't involve sound, it has to do with light. Im not exactly 100% sure how it works, when New Empire comes on ask him to explain he knows all about that as hes the one who introduced it to me and Mac in the W@W's.

Lidar doesn't involve sound, it has to do with light. Im not exactly 100% sure how it works, when New Empire comes on ask him to explain he knows all about that as hes the one who introduced it to me and Mac in the W@W's.

I'll repeat myself - its the SONAR part that confounds.

Yeah, pretty much it's sonar that screws everything up. LIDAR can work fine with supercav torpedoes...

Although one can also use wire guidance from the sub.

As for 'stealth subs', uh, virtually every submarine is a 'stealth' vehicle. Really, though, TST, what do you define as stealth? Because as has been explained before 'sound absorbent tiling' will not protect you from active sonar. And of course they could use 'hole in ocean' sonar, LIDAR, MAD, so on, so forth. And by the way, despite what that James Bond movie said, using IR/Thermal signatures to track subs won't work unless they're practically surfaced or at periscope depth. A submarine is only as stealthy as the person commanding it. It's hard to find subs in general, but to really stay stealthy one has to avoid enemy ASW pickets, helos and aircraft, take advantage of thermoclines, so on.

Can someone please explain how LIDAR could be used in a guidance application for torpedos/missiles? because I've been looking ad nowhere does it say anything about thaat type of usage.

My trusty friend Wikipedia says nothing about that application, indded, the only military usage remotely mentioned is to identify targets from a long distance away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIDAR

So can someone tell me how a technology, described as an intelligence gathering device,

Military applications are not yet in place, but a considerable amount of research is underway in their use for imaging. Their higher resolution makes them particularly good for collecting enough detail to identify targets, such as tanks. Here the name LADAR is more common.
have anything to do with guiding torpedoes/missiles?

The military is developing the use of LIDAR/LADAR to replace MAD on helicopters, and LIDAR/LADAR is, seemingly, just a blanket term used to cover a wide variety of optronic (i.e., laser, IIR (less common, as it's already in common use), UV, in other words, visible and non-visible light) sensors increasingly being used for weapons. The principle is pretty much the same as it is for radar or sonar, but instead of radio waves or sound, light (generally a laser) is projected at the source or received from the target and is processed, probably taking note of the Doppler effect of "red-shift" (going away) or "blue-shift" (coming towards) and the speed of those shifts. Of course, the sensor mechanism and processors have to take into account refraction (especially with changing media [from air to water for ASW helicopters]) and, in oceans at least, it would seem more a short range targetting device than a long range one considering diffusion and the like. But then again, I did poorly in optics in physics, so I could be speaking out of my arse on this one...

In general you're right. Compared to the more conventional methods of detection a sub has, lidar is pretty short-ranged. However, if one can install two nuclear reactors into a sub and devote a substantial portion of the energy of one of the reactors to powering lidar arrrays the you can have decent range. On a supercav torpedo that range is limited to 10 kilometers on the outside for general detection and less than five kilometers for a hard lock.

Domination Class Stealthed Attack Submarine

* Builder: Ineffable Advanced Systems Constructors
* Length: 106m
* Beam: 12m
Weapons Systems
* 8 Forward Torpedo tubes
* 4 Aft Torpedo tubes
* 20 Spider Class Torpedoes
* 10 Dwarf class nuclear Torpedoes
* 10 Ent class nuclear Torpedoes
* 5 Orc class nuclear Torpedoes
* 12 Vertical Missile tubes
* 2 Genesis Class Desolation Missiles
* 24 Tomahawk 3 cruise missiles
* 48 Banshee Anti-Ship Missiles
* 24 Raven class nuclear missiles

The Domination class is the sucessor to the world renowned Supremacy stealth submarines. The new submarine combines improved versions of the stealth technology used in it's predecessor, along with upgraded firepower and some new technology to combat the one weakness of the Supremacy, being it's visibility in the IR band. With the white noise/sonar generators, the adaptive optics system covering the outer hull and the outer cooling system, this new version is slightly larger than it's predecessor, but more advanced machinery has allowed more space as crew number are reduced reducing the volume of crew quarters. The caterpillar drive used by both the Domination and the Supremacy also ensures a lack of engine noise. The new Domination class has improved on the Supremacy in every way, making it one of the most silent and deadly weapons available to the Ineffable navy.

Voila. Peruse at your leisure. Bear in mind that this has no intention of being modern tech, the original Supremacy was designed to be late-21st Century stuff at least.
And I'm aware there's little IR signature of a sub running deep. I also stated that that was the main area of visibility of the Supremacy. That should say something in itself.

When you say lack of engine noise, I hope you mean a lack of pump noise and the like. Everything in the ocean that causes movement makes noise, it's just that some noises are not detectable by regular sonar.

When you say lack of engine noise, I hope you mean a lack of pump noise and the like. Everything in the ocean that causes movement makes noise, it's just that some noises are not detectable by regular sonar.
I do understand basic physics :rolleyes:
So in answer to your, erm, statement, yes; merely pump noise etc. The other stuff is what the white sonar is intended to conceal (I say conceal, as it does its best to blank out the noise and make it unheard, but it can obviously not be 100% effective and to compensate it may produce the sound of a whale or something as "sonic camoflauge".

Edit: And the starships etc are a definite no-no, correct?

Yes, so, we're still waiting. Ho-hum.
I'd just like to repeat that, should I be taking a role in this, I'm not putting any kind of limitations on my tech. And I'd like some input sometime...

[OOC: Generally modern sonar systems have libraries of sound tracks from a variety of sources allowing the processors to differentiate between natural sounds (whales, etc.), which are excluded, and man-made sounds, such as submarines. Different types of submarines, including differences between submarines of similar classes, can be categorised and classified.]

That's very true. However, as I said in the old thread - I am not the only nation that uses my type of SSNs... there's is a wide community out there that have bought my submarines, as well as other types of naval ships I produce. So, just because you know its a Toledo, doesn't mean its mine.

Can someone please explain how LIDAR could be used in a guidance application for torpedos/missiles? because I've been looking ad nowhere does it say anything about thaat type of usage.

My trusty friend Wikipedia says nothing about that application, indded, the only military usage remotely mentioned is to identify targets from a long distance away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIDAR

So can someone tell me how a technology, described as an intelligence gathering device,

have anything to do with guiding torpedoes/missiles?

LIDAR hasn't actually been incorporated by the military. Basically, there's three types of LIDAR.

normal LIDAR just uses a laser and computer, or multiple small lasers, to detect range.

Doppler LIDAR uses these lasers to detect velocity and vector.

DIAL uses these lasers to detect chemical composition.

Hence, by using a combination of Doppler LIDAR and normal LIDAR you can detect vectoring, velocity and range, which is all you need to know for coordinates on an enemy, and for that computer to give the torpedo the knowledge to strike.

OOC: It would be impossible to burn everything on that sub, the oxygen supply would run out before the fires consumed much of the sub. Your scrubbers would be useless with the power out as it would be with the hits and besides, flooding would occur too quickly to destroy every marking on the ship. Nice godmoding by the way.

And a meltdown on a sub reactor would not cause mass damage to subs around it. It would merely put a nice hole in the reactor vessel when the reactor melted and would cause flooding. You have to have critical mass of the nuclear material set off in a precise method by an explosive such as Octol.

As for the class of subs, other nations may have them, but you are the only one who would likely attack AMF. IIRC, you attacked an AMF ship with subs not to long ago so he can connect two things together.

Inform me when your fleets are about 3,00km off Mac's coast.

Inform me when your fleets are about 3,00km off Mac's coast.
They aren't even heading there so there is no need. My fleets aren't invading anyone, they are going to a defensive position on the far side of AMF's coast. That is as far from Macabees as possible while being in a position to protect AMF.

Just so everyone knows, by now all of my troops should be in position in Macabees. Our combat engineers are ready to work on fortifications that Macabees requests in the near future. We are working on mobilizing more troops, but we aren't 100% ready as we are trying to modernize our military at this time.

lol not you, I read you IC posts do thid doesnt have to do with you, it has to do with AMF's fleets and whoever else is joining him in invading Mac.

Just so everyone knows, by now all of my troops should be in position in Macabees. Our combat engineers are ready to work on fortifications that Macabees requests in the near future. We are working on mobilizing more troops, but we aren't 100% ready as we are trying to modernize our military at this time.

Same, a corps and an armored brigade are in Macs territory or moving there to help defend him.

Let's get this straight.

Macabees attacked AMF. So far, no one knows it is Macabees that launched the attack.

And yet everyone in the RWC is running to defend Macabees.

Yep, you folks are good on the realism. *shakes head*

Let's get this straight.

Macabees attacked AMF. So far, no one knows it is Macabees that launched the attack.

And yet everyone in the RWC is running to defend Macabees.

Yep, you folks are good on the realism. *shakes head*

OCC: that’s just the way RP's works, no one knows it was the Macabees for all everyone knows AMF could of done the Attack himself on his own Ships to make it look like the Macabees, so His allies are Running to his Defense Because they A. Have the Right to Defend a Ally, and B. AMF and allies to date have no Proof it was the Macabees, This is argued as I can see atm. So because you Start Shaking your Head in Future I would suggest to look at it from the Enemies point of View, because your Point of view is completely one sided and aimed at removing Macabee allies because we all Know OCCly it was him, but IC'ly you have no proof on any level it was him (still being argued as mentioned before)

Dr_Twist.

President Trotzig sat in the briefing room surrounded by military leaders discussing the present war between The Macabees and Automagfreek.

"As we all know, the Macabees is a valuable ally, they have aided us in many wars and we are in debt to them," began Trotzig.

"Sir, currently this situation is a naval war. Our navy is not prepared to enter such a large battle, especially with such powerful nations. We would be crushed, I will not sacrifice my men like that," stated Admiral Koroff.

Trotzig sighed and shook his head. "I am aware of this, admiral. It is very frustrating, I feel like we are not helping our ally in their time of need. But, you are right, we cannot send our navy out there, they are too unorganized. I suppose we shall have to wait until the fighting is on land."

General Panzer jumped in quickly. "We could send aerial support, sir."

"No, not yet. We will wait until things develop until we become more involved. Let us wait and watch, when our time to help is at hand, we will know and we will act. You are all dismissed." the president finished.


In response to this IC post...nobody knows it's Macabees yet.

OCC: that’s just the way RP's works,

No, that's called "bad RPing" in my book, and I've not seen it elsewhere often. Some might do it, but it doesn't make it "good RP".



no one knows it was the Macabees for all everyone knows AMF could of done the Attack himself on his own Ships to make it look like the Macabees, so His allies are Running to his Defense Because they A. Have the Right to Defend a Ally, and B. AMF and allies to date have no Proof it was the Macabees, This is argued as I can see atm.

Is anyone doing anything to Macabees at this time? No.
Is there any reason to believe something will happen to Macabees? No.
Has anyone ICly said it was Macabees? No.

Poor RP.



So because you Start Shaking your Head in Future I would suggest to look at it from the Enemies point of View, because your Point of view is completely one sided and aimed at removing Macabee allies because we all Know OCCly it was him, but IC'ly you have no proof on any level it was him (still being argued as mentioned before)

Dr_Twist.

At this time, no one has stated IC it was Macabees on any level. I do suggest you get your facts straight first. All NATO forces being rallied are either on "aid and assist" and/or "search and rescue" missions, or are being moved to further defend the AMF coastline and country.

Nothing has been moved specifically at Macabees.

So, if I look at it from your point of view, that would mean either (a) you all knew this attack would come and are "first responding" from that knowledge, or (b) poor RP skills are rife and apparent.

I can see no time Vastiva would "presupport" someone without IC knowledge of the event. I have never seen AMF "presupporting". In fact, I can come up with very few examples of "presupporting without IC reason" from those I RP with.

So, why exactly are y'all rushing to Macabees defense again?

In response to this IC post...nobody knows it's Macabees yet.

Yeah I realized as I posted. I'm going to delete it and post it later.

Okay, I'm asking for the last time, am I in on this or no?

Okay, I'm asking for the last time, am I in on this or no?

Relax, dude. Many of us are enjoying a day off away from the computer.

Relax, dude. Many of us are enjoying a day off away from the computer.

That's nice. Unfortunatly, both AMF and Macabees have been on NS and posted since the last time I posed this question, so I would think they would have time to answer it. And I'm not a dude.

That's nice. Unfortunatly, both AMF and Macabees have been on NS and posted since the last time I posed this question, so I would think they would have time to answer it. And I'm not a dude.

Ok, ma'am, my apologies. Honestly, everyone in the US who watches football has been glued to the screen for the day. The board has been very slow overall.

Personally, I'd love to see you as part of it, but mine is a small voice and I've been avoiding the family all weekend (and hope to continue).

I shall be sure to put it elsewhere where they might see it. Fair enough?

Ok, ma'am, my apologies. Honestly, everyone in the US who watches football has been glued to the screen for the day. The board has been very slow overall.

Personally, I'd love to see you as part of it, but mine is a small voice and I've been avoiding the family all weekend (and hope to continue).

I shall be sure to put it elsewhere where they might see it. Fair enough?

That's more than fair, sure. :)

Done, and done. :)

I'll be gone most of the day. I'm heading to Chicago and going to have a nice meal at Lou Mitchells. The home of the best breakfast and coffee on earth. I'm meeting my grandparents there so see ya.

So, why exactly are y'all rushing to Macabees defense again?

Well, he asked me to help so I do know Iccly, I dont know about everyone else.

Well, he asked me to help so I do know Iccly, I dont know about everyone else.

"Hey! I bombed an AMF convoy without reason. Mind defending me while about half of the known world falls on me?"
"SURE! Who needs land where you can grow things?"

And where is the post where he told you ICly? What means were used?

wow, calm down. Talks over this posted on RWC forums.
EDIT: If itll make you feel better Ill ask him to post him sending it to me here on NS.

Just a point, but lasers won't work underwater. They have a hard enough time in an atmosphere as it is, but with water the refraction level will be so high that even an extremely powerful (modern tech) one will be a very short range thing.
To make an effective laser-guided torpedo it would be extremely expensive to build, and they'd be large, due to the space required for the power-generator.
Not of course that it's impossible, just impractical.

Anyway, if it's possible I'd like to use my futuretech stuff, but I can downgrade to post-modernish if necessary.

I believe it's time for the Clan of the Golden Sky to meet with the newest attachment to the Ardan Continent.

Lord Damien, I believe, can even meet with Trabian Riil of the High Fist, and fulfill the Elemental Grid Defense over his nation.

Then all will be well.

1200 A.D. technology level is fine as long as you can back it up with ingenuity and the Arcane.

If you don't like it, shove it up your ass and leave.

Guys, I have no wish to invade AutoMagFreek.... and yes Vastiva, the RWC mobilization is a tad early, however, most of the time OOC does infest IC relations - and call it bad RPing..but that's how most of NS RPs go.

Also, Vastiva,


Two OVERSIGHT techs watched the mobilizations around Macabees.

"Now, why would they be mobilizing so heavily? No one has said or done anything to them."
"Yep. Fascinating. Now hush, I'm watching the game."
"Well, it just seems odd..."
"Of course its odd. And I'm sure you'll report it."
"The computers take care of that."
"Yeah, and you can add a notation. Which I'm sure you have. Now, hush, I'm waiting to see what the outcome is."
"Mmmmhmmm. And how much do you have riding on this?"
"About a weeks pay."

High above, the satellite continued its work, silently.


That's not a mobilization. All those assets existed already. I'm just moving them out of port, and their they stop. This could be A. An attack on AMF (although my government has no official anomisity with AMF, or has even had outside contact with AMF) B. wargames, which were stated to happen with Independent Hitmen outside of Spain C. Rondevouz with the fleet coming back from Spain, as I gave Spain to ViZion for the meantime.D Anything else you can come up with.

Guys, I have no wish to invade AutoMagFreek.... and yes Vastiva, the RWC mobilization is a tad early, however, most of the time OOC does infest IC relations - and call it bad RPing..but that's how most of NS RPs go. We may know all that OOC, but just because we know your OOC intents does not mean we know ICly what your intent is. Even if we knew OOCly what your plans were, that doesn't mean we can use that knowledge ICly.

Just a point, but lasers won't work underwater. They have a hard enough time in an atmosphere as it is, but with water the refraction level will be so high that even an extremely powerful (modern tech) one will be a very short range thing.
To make an effective laser-guided torpedo it would be extremely expensive to build, and they'd be large, due to the space required for the power-generator.
Not of course that it's impossible, just impractical.

Anyway, if it's possible I'd like to use my futuretech stuff, but I can downgrade to post-modernish if necessary.

Not at all... the SONAR with wire guidance can guide the torpedo for the long run.... the LIDAR powerplan need only be, perhaps, 7000 watts (10 horsepower), and it already gives me a light ray that has a range of .... let's say fifty meters.... however, I don't really need a range farther than that - the fifty meters just adds an extra accuracy rating, and helps get past last resort counter-measures. Their might be a few distortions due to light break ups in the water, however, a fairly good reading will be given by the computers, and it doesn't really matter if the range is "overshot", as long as the torpedo hits.

We may know all that OOC, but just because we know your OOC intents does not mean we know ICly what your intent is. Even if we knew OOCly what your plans were, that doesn't mean we can use that knowledge ICly.

Ok... but ICly I have never threatened AMF, or talked to AMF, or gotten close to AMF.

Okay, I'm asking for the last time, am I in on this or no?

I personally rather not have future technology in this, however, if I'm going to get yelled at because I don't accept you in the role play, then I have no choice but to accept you. However, again, personally, I rather not have a future tech nation attacking me - it sorta, gives the future tech player a bit of an advantage don't you think?

Actually, Blue-Green lasers are perfect for underwater applications and have been used for such for quite some time. A 200 milliwatt laser can, with a focused beam, reach a detection range of 3 kilometers.

Actually, Blue-Green lasers are perfect for underwater applications and have been used for such for quite some time. A 200 milliwatt laser can, with a focused beam, reach a detection range of 3 kilometers.

Tech Inquiry: What do you mean by blue-green lasers?

I personally rather not have future technology in this, however, if I'm going to get yelled at because I don't accept you in the role play, then I have no choice but to accept you. However, again, personally, I rather not have a future tech nation attacking me - it sorta, gives the future tech player a bit of an advantage don't you think?

Well, that's no ones fault but your own, is it? You still haven't explained the logic in provoking an alliance whose members are 3/4 future tech, and then ignoring said tech level. Don't you take interest in what you're getting yourself into before engaging an enemy. Performing an act of war on Metus and then refusing to RP with future tech nations is slightly discrediting, to say the least. You should think about that.

BGLIDAR (Blue Green LIDAR) is the standard form of underwater LIDAR... Blue Green being the color of the beams as it is the color that best penentrates seawater.

Furthermore, if you guys let future tech be used against Macabees, then accept his 'far too uber' technology. Only makes sense.

Still waiting for Mac to respond to my first post in the new IC thread.

Mac was online a bit earlier at W@W responding to one of my attacks there, the post was pretty good sized, so I don't know if that took up his time or if he's writing another now.

Mac was online a bit earlier at W@W responding to one of my attacks there, the post was pretty good sized, so I don't know if that took up his time or if he's writing another now.

Whaaa?????

Honestly, you go away for two days, and all god-damn hell breaks loose.

What do you mean, McLeod? I was already at war with him. You just missed the perhaps 10 post invasion, surrender, and occupation of Tanzania. Oh, and theres a war between China/Taiwan and the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia's being invaded, and err, other stuff. But don't worry. You're fine.

Guys, I have no wish to invade AutoMagFreek.... and yes Vastiva, the RWC mobilization is a tad early, however, most of the time OOC does infest IC relations - and call it bad RPing..but that's how most of NS RPs go.

"If everyone jumped off a bridge..."

Just because the standard is poor, is no reason to adhere to a poor standard.



Also, Vastiva,

That's not a mobilization. All those assets existed already. I'm just moving them out of port, and their they stop. This could be A. An attack on AMF (although my government has no official anomisity with AMF, or has even had outside contact with AMF) B. wargames, which were stated to happen with Independent Hitmen outside of Spain C. Rondevouz with the fleet coming back from Spain, as I gave Spain to ViZion for the meantime.D Anything else you can come up with.

That is a mobilization - you sent out an ungodly number of submarines, which were "mobilized" for something. You also removed all your troops from Spain - which is a further mobilization.

Could be a wargame, could be an attack, could be shakedown cruises after refits. No idea - but it is a "mobilization".

Next question?

Not at all... the SONAR with wire guidance can guide the torpedo for the long run.... the LIDAR powerplan need only be, perhaps, 7000 watts (10 horsepower), and it already gives me a light ray that has a range of .... let's say fifty meters.... however, I don't really need a range farther than that - the fifty meters just adds an extra accuracy rating, and helps get past last resort counter-measures. Their might be a few distortions due to light break ups in the water, however, a fairly good reading will be given by the computers, and it doesn't really matter if the range is "overshot", as long as the torpedo hits.

I would point out that "ships is huge". You don't need much precision to put a torpedo into a ship, just an idea of which shadow to hit.

It was the "SONAR" part which was screwy.

Ok... but ICly I have never threatened AMF, or talked to AMF, or gotten close to AMF.

Somebody blew up an AMF ship. That's what we're reacting to.

Bump

Mac, are you even going to participate in this any longer?

That's more than fair, sure. :)

Youse in, sayeth the AMF.

However, I do think some "tech v tech" guidelines should be hashed out in here before things go whacko.

Youse in, sayeth the AMF.

However, I do think some "tech v tech" guidelines should be hashed out in here before things go whacko.

Heh, and how about(if we start this) we try to keep it too NATO v RWC? Since I'm already predicting a huge amount of small(or just some that have no dealings with either alliance) nations are going to read this, and think "geeh, that must be pretty imporant, let me go show off my non-existant RP skills in this thread."

That'll only in endless amount of banter and mass ignores, which seems to be common-place.

I would propose those involved need to be invited to the thread - make it "Invite Only".

That limits things somewhat. We can hash who gets invited in this thread.

Cheesisms will be ignored ("I don't wanna invite them! They can beat on me!")

And anyone already invited, stays invited.

Fair enough?

I would propose those involved need to be invited to the thread - make it "Invite Only".

That limits things somewhat. We can hash who gets invited in this thread.

Cheesisms will be ignored ("I don't wanna invite them! They can beat on me!")

And anyone already invited, stays invited.

Fair enough?

Sounds good. :)

is this RP still alive?

is this RP still alive?

Uh...why is it any concern of yours?

Uh...why is it any concern of yours?

RWC member, we are a nosy bunch.

Uh...why is it any concern of yours?

I'm an RWC member and mac is RWC.

RWC member, we are a nosy bunch.


yes quite nosy.

*goes about lifting up doormats looking for keys and other hidden valuables*

I'm an RWC member and mac is RWC.

LoL, you do remember that you've been on my 'do not interact with' list for some time? Remember when you invaded Nianacio in the summer of '03? I attacked your fleets with several fighter wings, only to have you refuse to take any damage and resort to arguing over trivial tech specs. So yeah.....

i didn't take damage because you didn't take damage to your air wing when i intercepted.

and we interacted after that during the Russian Forces war and I believe the Edolia.

i didn't take damage because you didn't take damage to your air wing when i intercepted.

and we interacted after that during the Russian Forces war and I believe the Edolia.


Wrong. I took my damages, just not to the C-130 that was dropping a Porcupine bomb on your carriers because it was adequately defended. I could spend all day recalling that thread, because I recall it well.

And no, we never interacted after that incident.

well to ask Belems question for him as im wondering the same thing, AMF, Mac is this thing still on? It just suddenly died.

no im pretty sure you didn't take damage at all. and you know it doesn't really matter what we say now because that thread was purged a long time ago so its all just hearsay.

and yes we did interact with the war you had with RF. I was involved in that.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=307048&page=4&pp=20

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=307048&page=10&pp=20

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=307048&page=11&pp=20

And i believe there were other branch off threads from this where I particpated but the search engine is picky.

Still waiting for Mac to respond to my first post in the new IC thread.

Umm..I've had an IC response for two days now...and now I just wrote another one...

Well, that's no ones fault but your own, is it? You still haven't explained the logic in provoking an alliance whose members are 3/4 future tech, and then ignoring said tech level. Don't you take interest in what you're getting yourself into before engaging an enemy. Performing an act of war on Metus and then refusing to RP with future tech nations is slightly discrediting, to say the least. You should think about that.

That's not my fault at all - it's your alliance's fault that it does not have a standard MT base. As freeform RP I have the right to not recognize you.

Umm..I've had an IC response for two days now...and now I just wrote another one...


I just wanted to give you a chance to respond to the other half dozen posts that were made.

A single torpedo struck in the ballast tank, denting the titanium frame, however, a second torpedo struck aft and hit through the frame, and another torpedo hit next, and then another, and so continued the hell, as the SCIWS guns continued to fight, until they were put out of action by the incoming torpedoes. As a final twist, the Baldur nuclear reactor inhibitors failed, and the nuclear propulsion begans its final meltdown. The explosion that would come would shock the waters for miles around the submarine, and any SONAR man listening in would have his brains scrambled. The submarines around the area would also probably die in the process - but that was just the irony of war; the victor in one battle, was not the victor for long.

A meltdown and an actual nuclear explosion are two different things. Meltdown is defined as severe overheating of the core of a nuclear reactor resulting in the core melting and radiation escaping. How a full blown nuclear explosion through fission can occur by sinking your sub is beyond me, especially since modern day nuclear reactors are very safe. In fact, here's a quote from you yourself:

Baldur meltdown technology. The Baldur meltdown inhibitor uses sensors placed selectively inside the hull, close to the room of the nuclear reactors, to sense internal breaches, either by water pressure, or enemy pressure (missiles and other projectiles). Consequently, in case of a breech the Baldur is able to automatically shut down the two Valhalla nuclear reactors as quickly as possible, thus avoiding a catastrophic nuclear reaction.

Smells funny to me.

That's not my fault at all - it's your alliance's fault that it does not have a standard MT base. As freeform RP I have the right to not recognize you.

"standard MT base" sayeth the man with the buckyball covered tanks.

Next arguement, please.

I personally rather not have future technology in this, however, if I'm going to get yelled at because I don't accept you in the role play, then I have no choice but to accept you. However, again, personally, I rather not have a future tech nation attacking me - it sorta, gives the future tech player a bit of an advantage don't you think?

*whistles* Hey, MAC - you said it yourself. Stop waffling.

Tech Inquiry: What do you mean by blue-green lasers?

You have LIDAR and don't know this one?

*whistles* Hey, MAC - you said it yourself. Stop waffling.

*marks down Vastiva for RWC FT invasion.*

*marks down Vastiva for RWC FT invasion.*

George, as he already accepted FT invasion - limited, otherwise it would be pointless - waffling back and forth is ridiculous.

You make your rules and you stick to them. That's how Freestyle RP
works as opposed to constantly flames out. I don't know about you, but I'm on these boards to play, and I don't mean idiot games. That means playing like adults.

George, as he already accepted FT invasion - limited, otherwise it would be pointless - waffling back and forth is ridiculous.

You make your rules and you stick to them. That's how Freestyle RP
works as opposed to constantly flames out. I don't know about you, but I'm on these boards to play, and I don't mean idiot games. That means playing like adults.

That reminds me Vastiva, can you link me to a war RP that you participated in, that didn't end in mass ignores or flames?(doesn't mean you have to had started it) I need it for school, promised a teacher I'd do an project on this.

That reminds me Vastiva, can you link me to a war RP that you participated in, that didn't end in mass ignores or flames?(doesn't mean you have to had started it) I need it for school, promised a teacher I'd do an project on this.

Har har. Euroslavia being invaded and the aborted CAM invasion of Japanese Antarctica come to mind.

For the good, professional work, you'd have to go offboard. Or I could mail you copies of the summaries. Though its quite alot, you acquire paperwork galore in decades.

"standard MT base" sayeth the man with the buckyball covered tanks.

Next arguement, please.

well if you read some of his posts in this thread (or one of the other ones linked to this 'rp') he states that the technique that he uses on his tanks was witnessed in person by armacor. So stop trying to pass it off as future, anyway this rp is 2020 tech

well if you read some of his posts in this thread (or one of the other ones linked to this 'rp') he states that the technique that he uses on his tanks was witnessed in person by armacor. So stop trying to pass it off as future, anyway this rp is 2020 tech

Armacor does in fact consider the micro/nanoengineered type armor stuff 2010 tech. Not to mention he has a 2010 level tank with a COIL as a main gun.

Such tanks could be deployed 2010-2020, but I don't see that as practical in mass numbers.

You have LIDAR and don't know this one?


You're surprised, why? Let's outline what's wrong with his buckyball tank armour just to prove my point.

1) Pure buckyballs are priced in the hundreds of thousands per ounce and it takes roughly 24 hours to make a single ounce. So the first problem is one of logistics, specifically one of availability and price.

2) He says his armour is made up of "diamond buckyballs." This is, in and of itself, a contradiction. Both buckyballs and diamonds are forms of naturally occuring carbon, yet despite the extreme hardness they share their molecular makeup marks them as different. This is a matter of semantics, but an important one and you'll see why when I make my next point.

3) Rockwell hardness doesn't translate to kinetic impact resistanced. In fact, a large diamond, let's call it 20 karats, hit by a 5.56 millimeter SABOT would shatter. The same is true of any large buckyball mineral formation, to make it even moderately impact resistant the buckyballs have to go through an expensive sublimation and infusion process that would up the price of the buckyballs to the millions per ounce.

Mind you, I'm no chemist, but I have taken the time to come up with these facts. My point, you ask? Simple, I do research instead of counting on people being impressed with large and obscure word describing equally obscure bits of technology. The same can't be said of The Macabees and it isn't any great surprise to me that he couldn't be assed to find out anything about the technology he claims he uses.

You're surprised, why? Let's outline what's wrong with his buckyball tank armour just to prove my point.

1) Pure buckyballs are priced in the hundreds of thousands per ounce and it takes roughly 24 hours to make a single ounce. So the first problem is one of logistics, specifically one of availability and price.

2) He says his armour is made up of "diamond buckyballs." This is, in and of itself, a contradiction. Both buckyballs and diamonds are forms of naturally occuring carbon, yet despite the extreme hardness they share their molecular makeup marks them as different. This is a matter of semantics, but an important one and you'll see why when I make my next point.

3) Rockwell hardness doesn't translate to kinetic impact resistanced. In fact, a large diamond, let's call it 20 karats, hit by a 5.56 millimeter SABOT would shatter. The same is true of any large buckyball mineral formation, to make it even moderately impact resistant the buckyballs have to go through an expensive sublimation and infusion process that would up the price of the buckyballs to the millions per ounce.

Mind you, I'm no chemist, but I have taken the time to come up with these facts. My point, you ask? Simple, I do research instead of counting on people being impressed with large and obscure word describing equally obscure bits of technology. The same can't be said of The Macabees and it isn't any great surprise to me that he couldn't be assed to find out anything about the technology he claims he uses.


Amacor has actually seen the diamon helix bonded to the C60 buckyball, so that's that.... it might be expensive for a RL nation...I'm much larger, with a much larger GDP, with a tank corp. built over a number of years. And that's why it uses the NxRA ablative blocks, to protect against the SABOT KE rounds.

I would like to Direct all Nations to the Following Thread.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=378449

Thankyou.

Figured.

*checks notes*

Make that "called it".

OOC:

Ive decided that i will support The Macabees, but i could do with some background info as to whats going on so i can have a good excuse for helping them out....

OOC:

Ive decided that i will support The Macabees, but i could do with some background info as to whats going on so i can have a good excuse for helping them out....

Then you're going to have to use the 'search' button and study up. I don't think any of us have the time or patience to explain this all over again.

Well, MAc used a sub to attack AMF ships, then burned almost all evidence. He acted very suspisious afterwards and AMF declared war on him. That is the long story short.

That reminds me Vastiva, can you link me to a war RP that you participated in, that didn't end in mass ignores or flames?(doesn't mean you have to had started it) I need it for school, promised a teacher I'd do an project on this.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=360915

It's not the best example, but I'm fairly sure that he was actively involved in this and we did resovle it without any of the players ignoring each other or flaming each other excessively... there was some disagreement but ultimately Euroslavia finished the thread and everyone was vaguely content with the result.

Note he doesn't get involved until post 161, (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7161931&postcount=161) after that he's pretty active on the thread. Maybe look around page 12/13 if you are using the standard 15 posts per page.

That's not my fault at all - it's your alliance's fault that it does not have a standard MT base. As freeform RP I have the right to not recognize you.


We shouldn't have to have Modern Tech if we don't want to. We wholeheartedly apologize for using our imaginations. It won't happen again.