NationStates Jolt Archive

after reading a few rp's i am looking at building a military and starting to rp and such. but after reading the stickies my head is spinning. i hope some one can help me.

Earl Turner
leader

Important Points:

1. At full strength your military can be 5% of your total population; however, this includes logistical personnel... a US Special Operations sergeant told me it should be 8:1.. but most around here do a 4:1 or 5:1 (logistical : frontline)

2. You should look up real world weaponry, and then look at the several storefronts around here. This is a good weapons website : www.fas.org

3. Always be realistic!

OOC: I alawys thought the 5% Was JUST the combat troops lol <_< Either way, Pick standardized equipment (Like maybe 2 or 3 different kinds of fighters, Tanks ect) And one or two standard infantry rifles. Deside if you want to have a WWII military, Vietnam era, Modern, Post modern ect.

i think modern will work but i see stores how dose that work? i mean where dose money come from, what of conversion rates, ect...
also what if you have a compulserary military

With compusory military you would probably have an overall slightly smaller standing force (sicne you are havign to spend huge amounts on training a cosntant supply of new soldiers and keeping old one's current) with a huge but, to be honest, entirely defensive reserve.

the funds used for Store front purchases are assumed to come from your nations budget, there are a number of claculator system out there to help but the thridgeek calculator is a good starting point: http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/

basically you would take part of your defence budget and set aside this for procurement purposes this can either be from Storefronts or your country's own indiginous industries.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=7508927&posted=1#post7508927 Feel free to check out my store i have some modern but mostly Near future (2010 ish tech) tech.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=7508927&posted=1#post7508927 Feel free to check out my store i have some modern but mostly Near future (2010 ish tech) tech.
well i realy want modern, and i also basicly want a large navy, with an expansive sub force to inculde ssbn, ssgn, 688's, and some virginias

i am willing to pay a 10% surcharge to any person that can help me

i will help you buy giving you 500 crates of P90s (10 per crate) 100 grenades. 5 M1A1 and 2 Sam missile launchers and 10 SAM missiles this should be sufficient for a small protection force tell me if you want to open up trading between our countires....

Everything you need can be found here
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/grunt74/NS1/phxlogo.jpg (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=334378)

hmmm.. re size:


Would a total amount of hardware having a pricetag equal to one year's defense budget be realistic?

hmmm.. re size:


Would a total amount of hardware having a pricetag equal to one year's defense budget be realistic?
what do you mean?

what do you mean?

Let us imagine that your defensebudget is 3 BLN per annum.

Let us then imagine that the price of a new SSN were 1 BLN.

I would suggest that your maximum order of batle then would be 3 SSN's.

Military equipment, and more to the point, personel, takes a lot to run and own. It is VERY irrealistic to spend 90% of your defense-budget on new weaponry - 10% is more realistic, you need money to run the stuff you bought last year, and the years before that.

An order of battle with a pricetag total to your annual defense-budget offers IMHO the right mix of realism and playability.

Let us imagine that your defensebudget is 3 BLN per annum.

Let us then imagine that the price of a new SSN were 1 BLN.

I would suggest that your maximum order of batle then would be 3 SSN's.

Military equipment, and more to the point, personel, takes a lot to run and own. It is VERY irrealistic to spend 90% of your defense-budget on new weaponry - 10% is more realistic, you need money to run the stuff you bought last year, and the years before that.

An order of battle with a pricetag total to your annual defense-budget offers IMHO the right mix of realism and playability.
ok i'm still kinda lost a year? and sence i have no military as of yet how much should i spend

ok i'm still kinda lost a year? and sence i have no military as of yet how much should i spend

http://www.sunsetrpg.com/nsxmlparser.php

;-)

http://www.sunsetrpg.com/nsxmlparser.php

;-)
ok thats kinda like that third geek but thats not exactly what i asked is a year an actual year or is it shorter, and since i have yet to perchuse any thing should i still spend only 10% or can i spend more

ok i'm still kinda lost a year? and sence i have no military as of yet how much should i spend


Actually it can be assumed that you currently have some degree of military organisation with a wide pool of equipment. Currently this is likely to cosnsit of basic trucks, jeeps and rifles with the odd heavy weapon for your land forces but as to air and land you would be perfectly able to simply coem up with soem sort of current equipment list. You don't have to buy all your stuff from store fronts.

but going down that road i would say a max of 20% of your overall defence budget woudl be affordable for expenditures. In some instances you could spend mroe than this with fudning provided directly by your government (your MOD/DoD asks for a special budget) or by making limited reductions in other defence areas.

ok thats kinda like that third geek but thats not exactly what i asked is a year an actual year or is it shorter, and since i have yet to perchuse any thing should i still spend only 10% or can i spend more

The RL time/NS time relationship is a very hotly debated issue, some go by 1 NSyear=1Rl day while others use a week, or month for an NS year. to be hoenst it doesn't really matter as you can be as flexable as you like, its all a matter of beign sensible as logn as you don't go to extremes people generally wont make an issue of your forces.

The RL time/NS time relationship is a very hotly debated issue, some go by 1 NSyear=1Rl day while others use a week, or month for an NS year. to be hoenst it doesn't really matter as you can be as flexable as you like, its all a matter of beign sensible as logn as you don't go to extremes people generally wont make an issue of your forces.
ok so say i go year=week the my budget is what i have every sunday, right? and all the money left from the last week is just gone?

btw i want to start for scratch

Heres my advice...
For one, you have to wait a month until you can use nuclear weapons. K, with that said, remember the costs with a nuclear program.
~Aquireing the Materials for the Warhead/Rocket = 80 million (Per Missile)
~Building isolated, safe missile Silos (One Silo Holds One missile) = 200 million
~Upkeep on Missiles = 30 million a year (1 NS Year = One RL day)
~Upkeep on Facilities = 40 million a year
~Personel for Facilities = 10 million a year
~Nooking your Opponents = Priceless

All the required money for a missile can easily set you back 280 smackers, plus the 80+ million Bucks a year for upkeep per missile. And all that is for trying to be realistic in prices.
My point, big weapons are very expensive, and have hidden costs.

Heres my advice...
For one, you have to wait a month until you can use nuclear weapons. K, with that said, remember the costs with a nuclear program.
~Aquireing the Materials for the Warhead/Rocket = 80 million (Per Missile)
~Building isolated, safe missile Silos (One Silo Holds One missile) = 200 million
~Upkeep on Missiles = 30 million a year (1 NS Year = One RL day)
~Upkeep on Facilities = 40 million a year
~Personel for Facilities = 10 million a year
~Nooking your Opponents = Priceless

All the required money for a missile can easily set you back 280 smackers, plus the 80+ million Bucks a year for upkeep per missile. And all that is for trying to be realistic in prices.
My point, big weapons are very expensive, and have hidden costs.
i under stand that but also i think i can avoid the cost of silos by using ssbn's
as the ssbn is a multi use platform

SSBNs cannot be at the ready all the time, they have to stay in one area during peacetime anyway. Also, I don't believe SSBN missiles fly as far as Missiles launched from ICBMs. What most people forget, is that Nooks cant be used in close range combat. They are a first strike weapon, they should never be 100% of your military power. Because missiles armed with nuclear warheads kill your people too, unless your a Hatarian, Cuase they are Half Cockroach by now.

ok so say i go year=week the my budget is what i have every sunday, right? and all the money left from the last week is just gone?

btw i want to start for scratch


No, you still keep the money. In that way, if you go a week without spending anything then you can have a fairly large amount built up. Btw, my ratio is
1 Year = 1 Day, unless i'm in action then it slows down. If you want to start from scratch, I suggest making a nation that has a plural. For example

Right Minded Whites = ??
Hogsweat = Hogsweatian

ok so say i go year=week the my budget is what i have every sunday, right? and all the money left from the last week is just gone?

btw i want to start for scratch

it is fully possible to set aside funds each year to put towards the eventual cost of any procurement.

unfortuantly anythign you don't specifically set aisde for procurement or as a slush fund will ultiamtly be gone, you have to pay all your troops, house them, feed them and train them all of which is expensive. Even if you don't have any major equipemnt you will still ahve to have a mjor admin section and basic training system in place both of which will eat huge sections, although in this case you coudl be looking at being able to spend, at a geuss, 50-70% of your defense budget on pure material aquistion with the percentage availble dropping slightly as you aquire weapons.

it is fully possible to set aside funds each year to put towards the eventual cost of any procurement.

unfortuantly anythign you don't specifically set aisde for procurement or as a slush fund will ultiamtly be gone, you have to pay all your troops, house them, feed them and train them all of which is expensive. Even if you don't have any major equipemnt you will still ahve to have a mjor admin section and basic training system in place both of which will eat huge sections, although in this case you coudl be looking at being able to spend, at a geuss, 50-70% of your defense budget on pure material aquistion with the percentage availble dropping slightly as you aquire weapons.


Hmm Hmm Hmmm.. I go with one day = 1 NS year - also convenient as the economy changes overnight.

The old SovUnion was able to spend about 27% of the defense budget on acquisition. But for the average NATO country, including the USA, 10% is kind of realistic, based on historical data between 1970-1990.

When it comes to play-balance, I still think that the formula I propose is rather realistic. Acquisition-costs are actually the small change in the Budget, to the dismay of finance-ministers everywhere...

RTW, as your defense budget is rather large.. don't sweat it.
Surely you can afford to have a few divisions and a few wings of tactical fighters.

SSBNs cannot be at the ready all the time, they have to stay in one area during peacetime anyway. Also, I don't believe SSBN missiles fly as far as Missiles launched from ICBMs. What most people forget, is that Nooks cant be used in close range combat. They are a first strike weapon, they should never be 100% of your military power. Because missiles armed with nuclear warheads kill your people too, unless your a Hatarian, Cuase they are Half Cockroach by now.

*whispers* 1 in 3 at sea = good maritime governance... anything more in peacetime is... unrealistic.
As I wish to have 2 SSBN's at sea at all times, I have ordered 6 OHIO's.

http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/expenditure2001.pdf

Take a look at the table on page 15. The UK has a capital expenditure of about 15%, but this includes munitions expended through the year and the acquisition of buildings and facilities. 10 % IS realism.

*whispers* 1 in 3 at sea = good maritime governance... anything more in peacetime is... unrealistic.
As I wish to have 2 SSBN's at sea at all times, I have ordered 6 OHIO's.
Thats why the U.S. has 12 SSBNs within striking distance of every country in the world 24/7 365...... :rolleyes:

I'm a wee bit new to this game, but I have a few tips for you.

Get yourself into a region of nations, the region around you most likly would help you in terms of defence and weaponary.

You see, one has to look around the yard to know whats going on around it. So instead of a huge navy, focus on survailence, know whats going to happen before your foes do.

Besides, spending too much on surface ships hinders your sub-fleet, less surface ships-less likly they are going to get dive bombed by enemy aircraft.

Also keep one sub out at sea, because if say country A invades yours, and you have one sub parked off his coast with a dozen nukes, that gives you a pretty good barging chip.

Yet if you had a surface ship instead, chances are country A's airforce would tear it to shreads before it could get a missile off.

Also, keep in mind that every army needs people to run it. In most countrys military survice is required, so you would most likly keep your armed forces stacked up.

You also...
-need to cloth them
-feed them
-keep them healthy
-equip them with weapons/tools
-educate them(training and such,)
-produce their munitions, and weapons.

Your best bet, would be to set up your own munitions factories, because if you depend upon someone else for your munitions, chances are you could run out of ammo, due to sour diplomatic relations.

When aquiring hardware, you most likly want something that could pay for itself, and have as little up-keep as possible.

The country you most likly would base your's on is Isreal, they started with a small amount of make-shift weapons, and because they were so well trained and dertimined they gained their own country. As time progressed, they aquired jet fighters, and old artillery pieces, each of which they modernized and such.

Best example is the American 105mm artillery gun, they were handed down to Isreal, and the Isrealies re-rifled the barrels, and upgraded them to 120mm cannons.

Always look for old weaponary, anything that can be used, can always be put into something that can be re-built and modernized.

Start out small, then work your way up. Thats how everyone does it.

Thats why the U.S. has 12 SSBNs within striking distance of every country in the world 24/7 365...... :rolleyes:
yes this i know i have the "boomer pin" and i wear it proudly

Here's another question:

What about before or during Industrial Revolution weaponry? When swords and guns were still side by side. Or, what about the cost to supply "Middle Ages" style weaponry? Swords and crossbows will kill you just as dead as a gun or a laser. About how much would that cost? Considering workforce, amount of labor, quality of labor, etc...
Another thought.
What if an industrialized country stayed with pre-industrial weapons? Most pre-industrial weapons today are created by the bunch in a factory. Couldn't an army be equipped cheaply with swords, crossbows, etc. if it was industrialized?
I have this idea....

Doing well.

ooc:tag, be back later

Here's another question:

What about before or during Industrial Revolution weaponry? When swords and guns were still side by side. Or, what about the cost to supply "Middle Ages" style weaponry? Swords and crossbows will kill you just as dead as a gun or a laser. About how much would that cost? Considering workforce, amount of labor, quality of labor, etc...
Another thought.
What if an industrialized country stayed with pre-industrial weapons? Most pre-industrial weapons today are created by the bunch in a factory. Couldn't an army be equipped cheaply with swords, crossbows, etc. if it was industrialized?
I have this idea....

On one hand, hell, why not?
On the other hand... a matter of cost efficiency. While a sword is just a fine weapon, a guy with a sword will tend to kill less people than a guy with a gun.. and their operating costs are about the same.

ok now i have started to purches equipment so heres a new question, manning, i have (@5%) around 50 mil. persones available for my military but i need to know how many each peace of equipment will need to operate it. i have varries numbers of the following

726 class ssgn
726 class ssbn
688i class ssn
Nimitz Class Carrier with air wings
Spruance Class Destroyers
Ticonderoga Cruisers
Oliver Hazard Perry Destroyer/Frigate
Arleigh Burke AEGIS Destroyer
M3 Bradley
BMP-3 Fighting Vehicles
Self Propelled Crusader Artillery
Type 99 155mm HSP
type 90 Tanks
Challenger 2 Main Battle Tanks
T-90s
M109A6 Paladin Self Propelled Howitzer
M6 Bradley Linebacker
CH-47 Chinook
C-5 Galaxys
C-141 Starlifter
HMMWV-M707 Striker/Knight
M1A2 Abrams
Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank
Crusader Artillery
AH-64 Apaches
RAH-66 Comanches
H-53 Sikorskys
MH-60 Multi-Mission/ Special Operation Black Hawk
Mi-35 Hind

i will continue to look but all help is greatly apperiseated

From memory ( i think its all pretty accurate)
Nimitz Class Carrier with air wings = 5,680
Spruance Class Destroyers = 372
Ticonderoga Cruisers = 364
Oliver Hazard Perry Destroyer/Frigate = 300
Arleigh Burke AEGIS Destroyer = 323
M3 Bradley = 3 crew 6 passenger
BMP-3= 3crew 7 passenger
Self Propelled Crusader Artillery = 7
Type 99 155mm HSP = 8
type 90 Tanks = 4
Challenger 2 Main Battle Tanks= 4
T-90s= 4
M109A6 Paladin Self Propelled Howitzer= 8
M6 Bradley Linebacker = 4
CH-47 Chinook = 3 crew 44 passenger
C-5 Galaxys = 6 crew 78 passengers
C-141 Starlifter = 6
HMMWV-M707 Striker/Knight = 3 crew 3-5 passengers
M1A2 Abrams = 4
AH-64 Apaches =2
RAH-66 Comanches =2
H-53 Sikorskys =6 +14 psngr
MH-60 Multi-Mission/ Special Operation Black Hawk 2-4 crew 9-11 passengers
Mi-35 Hind= 2 crew 8 passenger

dunno bout the rest, keep in mind u need some support and ground crews for aircraft, dock crew for ships and mechanics for tanks

From memory ( i think its all pretty accurate)
Nimitz Class Carrier with air wings = 5,680
Spruance Class Destroyers = 372
Ticonderoga Cruisers = 364
Oliver Hazard Perry Destroyer/Frigate = 300
Arleigh Burke AEGIS Destroyer = 323
M3 Bradley = 3 crew 6 passenger
BMP-3= 3crew 7 passenger
Self Propelled Crusader Artillery = 7
Type 99 155mm HSP = 8
type 90 Tanks = 4
Challenger 2 Main Battle Tanks= 4
T-90s= 4
M109A6 Paladin Self Propelled Howitzer= 8
M6 Bradley Linebacker = 4
CH-47 Chinook = 3 crew 44 passenger
C-5 Galaxys = 6 crew 78 passengers
C-141 Starlifter = 6
HMMWV-M707 Striker/Knight = 3 crew 3-5 passengers
M1A2 Abrams = 4
AH-64 Apaches =2
RAH-66 Comanches =2
H-53 Sikorskys =6 +14 psngr
MH-60 Multi-Mission/ Special Operation Black Hawk 2-4 crew 9-11 passengers
Mi-35 Hind= 2 crew 8 passenger

dunno bout the rest, keep in mind u need some support and ground crews for aircraft, dock crew for ships and mechanics for tanks
wow thanks i found this
726 class ssgn 163 crew
726 class ssbn 163 crew
688i class ssn 163 crew

also i am in the prosses of subcontracting out my support needs and will bump the thread