NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a semi-rant / OOC discussion post about alliances, and why I dislike them. I hope that all will become apparent soon:

The Alliance Ideal

People create and join alliances for a greater sense of security, so they can get to know other nations / players and because being a member of a certain alliance gives that nation standing in the world. Pretty much everyone is a member of a large alliance. Examples of these include NATO (New Alliance Treaty Organisation), RBA (Red Block Army), RWC (Right Wing Commonwealth) and NWO (New World Order). Each alliance vaguely stands for something, although in reality they're just massive Mutual Protection Pacts with ministerial positions, congressional boards and other such super-state like properties.

The Alliance Tensions

For some reason, tensions exist between these alliances, mostly between [insert alliance here] and NATO. Why? I honestly have no clue, other than that the players of the leaders of the alliances are bored (I'll go on to discuss this later) and see NATO as th obvious inter-alliance war target. Now, these tensions are basically pointless because:

1) IC tensions become OOC tensions.

2) IC / OOC tensions become an 'incident' which was artifically induced by a nation / player to provoke the opponent.

3) The spark ignites the powder and it looks for several days as though there will be an inter-alliance war.

4) The thread swells by tens to even hundreds (look at the Dr_Twist civil war) of posts per day, and no one can keep track of anything. Neither of the sides think, nor could hey agree to, an impartial referee or organiser, and so no one sees where they were attacked, and their targets do not see their attacks. Also, a number of bad players are also included in this huge horde of players.

5) The bad players and general disputes clog the thread with meaningless OOC drivell, and the whole thing grinds to a halt.

6) Ignorefest insues.

This is what has happened EVERY TIME the OOC / IC tensions (ie IC cold wars which still go on) have become something. This makes the game REALLY boring because not only do the alliance tensions come to nothing fun but:

Alliances Ruin the Game FULLSTOP

Ok, maybe the title goes a little overboard, but I think that alliances do screw up the game a lot. This is how it goes:

1) One nation attacks another.

2) The attacked nation calls in his massive alliance.

3) The attacker, knowing he will be defeated and then counterattacked to oblivion, calls in his allies.

4) Go to step three in the previous section.

And there is no way out unless you want to go for closed RP after closed RP, which are more of international wrestling matches than actual, realistic, real-life style roleplays. The only people who arent in massive alliances are either:

a) Godmodders who have lots of posts.

b) Complete n00bs.

c) The very rare newb.

This means that if you want to RP an Imperialist nation (ie like me), or just have a fun war RP (you know, like real countries have wars with each other) then you're really left without anything much you can do. Im currently doing a war RP against my (currently) puppet, because that's all I can do without sparking a world war -> ignorefest (if anyone wants to play as the puppet then check out the RP here: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=368165, btw).

Possible Solutions

Now, to this problem I propose the following possible solutions:

1) The 'five nation rule'. This one was proposed by Unified Sith over an MSN conversation, so I cant take any credit for it, but I think it's a good idea. Basically it means that no alliances can have over 5 nations as members (this could possibly be raised to 7 or 10, but no higher than that). This means that nations can be in alliances and have wars (even inter-alliance wars) without them being unmamangeable ignorefests. Indeed, this may even make alliance wars FUN and it'll make nations actually chose who to be in alliances with, as there is an actual limit.

2) Leave alliances. I'm VERY seriously considering quitting the only 'uber alliance' I'm in, NATO. This isnt because I dont like it, or its members (in fact I like most of them quite a bit), but because all i've gotten out of NATO membership thus far is inter-alliance godmodfests which would never have affected me if I'd stayed out. I think that this is an extreme solution which will probably never get enough support to work, but it's a possiblity.

3) Use Closed / Invite Only RPs. This is a possible soltion, but really I dont like the lack of the dynamic RP I like so much in NS, where anyone can get involved in anything. They also seem sort of false and set up, not at all how international politics really is. This is really just treating the symptoms, rather than the illness.


Ok, rant over, I hope that some of you agree with me, although i doubt many will. Feel free to post comments / ciritcism / hatemail below.

*Puts on flame retardant suit*

This is a semi-rant / OOC discussion post about alliances, and why I dislike them. I hope that all will become apparent soon:

The Alliance Ideal

People create and join alliances for a greater sense of security, so they can get to know other nations / players and because being a member of a certain alliance gives that nation standing in the world. Pretty much everyone is a member of a large alliance. Examples of these include NATO (New Alliance Treaty Organisation), RBA (Red Block Army), RWC (Right Wing Commonwealth) and NWO (New World Order). Each alliance vaguely stands for something, although in reality they're just massive Mutual Protection Pacts with ministerial positions, congressional boards and other such super-state like properties.

The Alliance Tensions

For some reason, tensions exist between these alliances, mostly between [insert alliance here] and NATO. Why? I honestly have no clue, other than that the players of the leaders of the alliances are bored (I'll go on to discuss this later) and see NATO as th obvious inter-alliance war target. Now, these tensions are basically pointless because:

1) IC tensions become OOC tensions.

2) IC / OOC tensions become an 'incident' which was artifically induced by a nation / player to provoke the opponent.

3) The spark ignites the powder and it looks for several days as though there will be an inter-alliance war.

4) The thread swells by tens to even hundreds (look at the Dr_Twist civil war) of posts per day, and no one can keep track of anything. Neither of the sides think, nor could hey agree to, an impartial referee or organiser, and so no one sees where they were attacked, and their targets do not see their attacks. Also, a number of bad players are also included in this huge horde of players.

5) The bad players and general disputes clog the thread with meaningless OOC drivell, and the whole thing grinds to a halt.

6) Ignorefest insues.

This is what has happened EVERY TIME the OOC / IC tensions (ie IC cold wars which still go on) have become something. This makes the game REALLY boring because not only do the alliance tensions come to nothing fun but:

Alliances Ruin the Game FULLSTOP

Ok, maybe the title goes a little overboard, but I think that alliances do screw up the game a lot. This is how it goes:

1) One nation attacks another.

2) The attacked nation calls in his massive alliance.

3) The attacker, knowing he will be defeated and then counterattacked to oblivion, calls in his allies.

4) Go to step three in the previous section.

And there is no way out unless you want to go for closed RP after closed RP, which are more of international wrestling matches than actual, realistic, real-life style roleplays. The only people who arent in massive alliances are either:

a) Godmodders who have lots of posts.

b) Complete n00bs.

c) The very rare newb.

This means that if you want to RP an Imperialist nation (ie like me), or just have a fun war RP (you know, like real countries have wars with each other) then you're really left without anything much you can do. Im currently doing a war RP against my (currently) puppet, because that's all I can do without sparking a world war -> ignorefest (if anyone wants to play as the puppet then check out the RP here: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=368165, btw).

Possible Solutions

Now, to this problem I propose the following possible solutions:

1) The 'five nation rule'. This one was proposed by Unified Sith over an MSN conversation, so I cant take any credit for it, but I think it's a good idea. Basically it means that no alliances can have over 5 nations as members (this could possibly be raised to 7 or 10, but no higher than that). This means that nations can be in alliances and have wars (even inter-alliance wars) without them being unmamangeable ignorefests. Indeed, this may even make alliance wars FUN and it'll make nations actually chose who to be in alliances with, as there is an actual limit.

2) Leave alliances. I'm VERY seriously considering quitting the only 'uber alliance' I'm in, NATO. This isnt because I dont like it, or its members (in fact I like most of them quite a bit), but because all i've gotten out of NATO membership thus far is inter-alliance godmodfests which would never have affected me if I'd stayed out. I think that this is an extreme solution which will probably never get enough support to work, but it's a possiblity.

3) Use Closed / Invite Only RPs. This is a possible soltion, but really I dont like the lack of the dynamic RP I like so much in NS, where anyone can get involved in anything. They also seem sort of false and set up, not at all how international politics really is. This is really just treating the symptoms, rather than the illness.


Ok, rant over, I hope that some of you agree with me, although i doubt many will. Feel free to post comments / ciritcism / hatemail below.

*Puts on flame retardant suit*


Lol... I think you have some valid points.

However, I think alliances don't ruin the game but the point is if you're going to have an alliance RP then don't have it as a huge thread but as series of small inter nation wars, which is more fun and more representative. It is also stops the godmod and ignore fests. I also, think we should use the idea that you do not get involved in a war if you're not actually in said alliance or offically invited by that alliance.

As for NATO, I'm not going to flame them but they have been partly responsible for the [Insert Alliance here] vs NATO syndrome, nothing is ever one way.

I personally agree with your 5 nation rule but prefer a sort of 4-6 rule, where nations are invited into closed RP's for certain purposes rather than just to fight. I am going to make an RP with an OOC friend soon, where we will be doing just that. :)

OOC: I dunno. I just think it's amusing how many people like to have their signatures clog full of various alliance's links. I'm only in one "military" alliance and one "economic" alliance, apart from the region I'm in. Anything more gets to be too confusing.

Still, any kind of war rp gets clogged after, say, 10 people. Some drop out, some don't use the damn OOC thread, some jump on late and start acting like morons. All comes down to how the individuals behind the nations relate I suppose. I mean, these guidelines that you offered, Praetonia, are okay if everyone who is in a particular rp can stick to it.

Well Praetonia, I agree with you - I'm not really in any alliance at all - as you point out, they're merely a mutual defense pact, which turns everything into meaningless threads. I would personally like to join into some war RPs, but inevitably they get clogged up into 6 pages or so within a day or two, and its not worth trying to read it all.

Lol... I think you have some valid points.

However, I think alliances don't ruin the game but the point is if you're going to have an alliance RP then don't have it as a huge thread but as series of small inter nation wars, which is more fun and more representative. It is also stops the godmod and ignore fests. I also, think we should use the idea that you do not get involved in a war if you're not actually in said alliance or offically invited by that alliance.

Perhaps... and I know that what you're suggesting (which is what im getting at partially) would make inter-alliance wars fun and manageable, but it still elimnates any scope for a nation vs nation war without it being closed or invite only.

As for NATO, I'm not going to flame them but they have been partly responsible for the [Insert Alliance here] vs NATO syndrome, nothing is ever one way.

I dont actually see why... we just sit there minding our own business and suddenly there's a MASSIVE troop build up in Europe with millions of Guffingford troops pressing on towards colonies of our members.

I personally agree with your 5 nation rule but prefer a sort of 4-6 rule, where nations are invited into closed RP's for certain purposes rather than just to fight. I am going to make an RP with an OOC friend soon, where we will be doing just that. :)

Yes I like the 5 nation idea. It is only for group alliances, not some kind of RP limit, but I think it would help a lot.

OOC:I am not in a alliance(although I have considered it) and I am not a n00b or a rare newb or a godmodder.

OOC:I am not in a alliance(although I have considered it) and I am not a n00b or a rare newb or a godmodder.
Indeed you're not, but nations like yours are even rarer...

Perhaps... and I know that what you're suggesting (which is what im getting at partially) would make inter-alliance wars fun and manageable, but it still elimnates any scope for a nation vs nation war without it being closed or invite only.

I know, but if you know as well as I do if you start an Open Nation on Nation war it gets too messy with every Tom, Dick and Harry getting involved. Thats why some nations use RP sign up threads.


I dont actually see why... we just sit there minding our own business and suddenly there's a MASSIVE troop build up in Europe with millions of Guffingford troops pressing on towards colonies of our members.

Mind, there is always reasons. You'd have to ask HP is reasons for that, but I can tell you knowing him they may well be something to do with NATO Command.


Yes I like the 5 nation idea. It is only for group alliances, not some kind of RP limit, but I think it would help a lot.

Agreed. It would control the RP's and stop Troll nations.

IC: Well I have had it with modern tech alliances. As of this moment in time Unified Sith is severing all ties with every modern tech alliance that the naiton is currently in.

IC: Well I have had it with modern tech alliances. As of this moment in time Unified Sith is severing all ties with every modern tech alliance that the naiton is currently in.
This isnt an IC thread, but thanks for the support anyway :)

*laughs*

Well, I've already said many times that large alliances which lack co-ordination will ulitimately end up in such troubles. Though the alliances themselves aren't so bad, it's the people who join like 8 alliances so they end up being tied in them all and make it almost impossible to take any side because they are allied to everyone.

Personally I find you don't really need group alliances like NATO, NWO or any of the others which don't have as much publicity as of late. Why have about 50 so called "allies" who most of the time won't lift a finger to help when you can have 8 solid allies who are generally around for you when you fuck up.

Most group alliances will have nations in which are only interested in having something extra to have on their signiture, these nations will make up an alliance but will rarely actually act for the alliance itself.

But nevermind. Though I have to admit, I like the way Vrak has it... Klatch may be pretty vicious at times, but they generally all stand up for one another and it's pretty nice to see. Where as KIST is just a nice little treaty which is doing even me proud.

Like Vrak, I'm down to maybe one group alliance which could be concidered military (but is in fact much more) and one economic treaty. Anything more is down to nations I get on well with and have strong relations with... people who are more friends then allies, they understand your problems better and are often more willing to help in times of trouble.

I don't think Alliances are ruining International Incidents... if you want to look for the thing which is damaging it then look at how wars are conducted and work out why most of the time they end up in ignore fests. It's not really the alliances which do that, it's the nations in question.

Big allaince wars can be doen well but they really do require vast amoutns of control and restraint to get the nessicary plannign etc out of the way to let the action go forward. unfortuantly all it takes is one lose cannon on either side and even the best planned Rp can go down the toilet (ie piracy in sothern klatch).

i agree with the bad points of large alliances (the biggest alliance i'm in is the OMP and it is msotly the same people from the CAP) but while they can be done well the general rule is the bigger alliance the less control over individual memebers you ahve and the greater likelihood of people miss using the alliance.

I agree entirely, says he who is in a number of 'massive' alliances. I also think there should be more of a selection process than just letting in anyone who applies, which is, it seems, what happens in the ANP. With the appointment of one of its latest, and more infamous members, I am fully considering resigning.

OOC: In all honesty, I like big alliances but I do see where you are coming from when it comes to the dogpiling RP.

What about a limit of nations on each each side in a conflict rather than a small alliance limit. I'm in the Right Wing COLLECTIVE (not commonwealth!) and I enjoy it, it adds a whole new level of community, its fun working with my team mates.

Also, I'd like the idea of a limit in conflicts, everyone else can contribute logistically and economically but they can't send soldiers themselves.

Therefore, no dogpiling. But, as you say, people will probably like the dog piling...

EDIT: Sorry, this is Kriegorgrad, Smutbucket is the Future Tech puppet that Holy Panooly gave me.

Dammit... I wanted smutbucket :(

Sorry for the Commonwelath / Collective thing, I was thinking of my region The NEw Commonwealth (probably anyway) but I wont change it because Im tired, lazy, cant be bothered and frankly I dont care. Sorry about this as I said Im tired now Im writting drivel Im just going to stop now bye.

OOC: I agree with Iuthia on this one (as usual). I myself am to blame for many of these 'uber alliances', such as reviving NATO, reviving GDODAD, spearheading the formation of Metus, etc.

As of now I only belong to 3 alliances (1 of them is super secret, so that doesn't count), those being NATO and Arda (which is a regional alliance, so I'm not sure if most people would count this), and Metus (which I'm automatically in because I'm apart of Arda, so this could be counted as one in the same with Arda).

As for the secret one..... *hugs The Ministry*. It's everything I've wanted in an alliance. Small and "elite" roster, and we operate very far under the NS radar. However, we've done several things that have an impact on the IC international community, it's just we've kept those on the down low as well.

I would however like to see less dependence on alliances and more dependency on good roleplay. There is nothing more discouraging than having an RP ruined by 10,000 alliances who really do not have a place in the RP.

I have just gotten into the game so I don't know enouph to have an opinon one way or another large alliences. But the fact that these large alliances have formed says alot about international politics. It convinces me that the large allinces between nations in real life must have been created by some part of human nature as opposed to some accidental qurik of hisorty

Well, here's the problem.

You get nations that want to club together and club everyone else. You get powerhappy wankers together with all sorts of idiots who have no real idea of how to RP, only to numberwank and bs and dogpile until the sky turns into radishes.

In short - a huge number of sheer idiots get together, and rather then feed on each other, they try to enforce their particular brand of power politics on everyone else.

The Real World Response is to make another alliance, to counterbalance it. And that is what is going on - defense from idiots.

Unfortunately, the idiots are still trying new and different ways of making the other peoples lives hell, only now it's "Alliance VS Alliance" bs, which is still attempting to be shoved down others throats.

Whoopie! My, that was fun. Let's not do it again.

I'd enjoy a good RP. Instead, I've found dozens of wanks, dogpiles, and other utterly ridiculous wastes of time.

Do I agree with you, P? To a large extent, yep. But the only alternative I see is wearing out my IGNORE cannons on the gimps. And the gimps seriously outnumber the role players here.

I have just gotten into the game so I don't know enouph to have an opinon one way or another large alliences. But the fact that these large alliances have formed says alot about international politics. It convinces me that the large allinces between nations in real life must have been created by some part of human nature as opposed to some accidental qurik of hisorty

OOC: We're evolved from monkeys. Duh.

Well, here's the problem.

You get nations that want to club together and club everyone else. You get powerhappy wankers together with all sorts of idiots who have no real idea of how to RP, only to numberwank and bs and dogpile until the sky turns into radishes.

In short - a huge number of sheer idiots get together, and rather then feed on each other, they try to enforce their particular brand of power politics on everyone else.

The Real World Response is to make another alliance, to counterbalance it. And that is what is going on - defense from idiots.

Unfortunately, the idiots are still trying new and different ways of making the other peoples lives hell, only now it's "Alliance VS Alliance" bs, which is still attempting to be shoved down others throats.

Whoopie! My, that was fun. Let's not do it again.

I'd enjoy a good RP. Instead, I've found dozens of wanks, dogpiles, and other utterly ridiculous wastes of time.

Do I agree with you, P? To a large extent, yep. But the only alternative I see is wearing out my IGNORE cannons on the gimps. And the gimps seriously outnumber the role players here.

(OOC) This is indeed true. I tend to RP as a National full of fanatical fools who do a lot of sabre rattling... the amount of times I've been threatened with "if you continue to call my President a fornicating baboon the XYZ Alliance with 123456 members and 5432 allied Nations will slaughter you" is getting ridiculous.

It's alright to have a big Alliance, but in my opinion, the majority of people join Alliances so that they can say that. And then say "I believe I am a true super power of NS".

And just for reference DB is an FKC State like Vrak... we generally provide the problems for the Vrakians to solve.

Alliances have their place, but they have gotten way too out of hand as of late. I enjoy international politics as much, if not more, than the next person. I like making deals and working out treaties. The problem is that with current alliances IC and OOC matters have come together into a massive of incoherent blubbery.

NS is supposed to be about the RPing. Freeform RPing that allows players to develop characters, countries, and institutions. Instead of facilitating those goals, alliances are starting to present themselves and an impediment. When RPs start to become time crucial, when you need to respond to a situation within minutes, something is lost.

I've always been an open RPer. I've responded to every RP that I've been dragged into. Now, as of right now, I'm a Planned RPer. I regret that I have to do this but I see no other way. I've been unable to do story RPs that I've been planning because of pointless and unplanned RPs that arise. Enough is enough.

Large alliances by themselves are fine. The problem arises from a departure from what Role Playing is about- the Game.

I agree that some alliance versus alliance wars get out of hand with flaming, but I think that a lot of us (in the alliances which I think some are specifically referring too... NATO and RWC) who have some experience in the RPing sector, and do not blatantly ignore because we think we'll lose (and we just want to have some fun), can actually make a huge alliance vs. alliance war work.

The thing is, alliances like these are realistic. Why doesn't France invade Spain? Why doesn't Germany invade Poland? Maybe because they will get gang-banged by the international community. This is the NS form of MAD.

I've been in huge alliances because my region is part of them*, and have almost brought them into combat a few times. About this time last year Dark terror and I were frequently very near war, but after some threatening and counter-threatening with alliances, he would back down each time. Eventually we did go to war, but it happened in a way that didn't let me call on MACTO or the ALL. So, um...Big alliances can make for interesting situations, but I've never been in a war with one.

*Armageddon (region), with about 100 members, was part of MACTO ("treaty organization"), which had a few hundred members, and was in turn part of the ALL ("league"), with a few thousand members.

OOC:

I think Vastiva hit it on the head. It's the individual idiots that glomp together which in turn create more stupidity that is the problem, not the formation of alliances per say. Then it comes down to a process of trial and error to filter through who (and hopefully be extension any alliance that person belongs to) is a reasonable roleplayer.

The thing is, alliances like these are realistic. Why doesn't France invade Spain? Why doesn't Germany invade Poland? Maybe because they will get gang-banged by the international community. This is the NS form of MAD.

OOC:

The answer to this I think is a bit more complex. Alliances are natural, but I don't think it's fear of being "gangbanged" by the international community that prevents invasion today. I assume that's what you mean here since, if I understand thing correctly, France, Spain, Germany, and Poland enjoy, for the most part, pretty good relations. But, if you go back in time a bit, well, Germany did invade Poland and it took the international community to finally do something, at great cost. Nobody was daring to stop Germany earlier at that time, circa 1938.

As well, the general feeling and attitude of the "international community" has changed as well. After all, when Japan conquered Korea in 1910 the international community did nothing since, well, everyone was looking to own a piece of real estate at that time. In other words, the general feeling of the international community will dictate what an individual nation can get away with. It also comes down to the amount of will the international community can muster. If nation A invades nation B, then nations D, E, and F may decry A's actions. But if A can whip their collective asses (or damage them a great deal), then the "international community" can do nothing. That why we see the vaunted "international community" or, for that matter any fairly good-sized alliance, try to enforce their will on what they view as smaller and weaker alliances or nations.

The only people who arent in massive alliances are either:

a) Godmodders who have lots of posts.

b) Complete n00bs.

c) The very rare newb.

Well, I'm not a godmodder with lots of posts, I hope I'm not a complete n00b, but I guess I could fit into the "very rare newb" category. I focus more on bilateral agreements than OMG I'M IN [insert alliance here] WITH 2353779 NATIONS I PWN J00!!!111! I have signed a few bilateral economic agreements, but I shy away from military stuff because of the concerns enumerated in your post.

My nation is militarily isolationist, though it has occasionally intervened to evacuate victims of genocide. I would actually like to RP a war or two, but I'm scared as hell of the uberalliances (and also with going to war with nations ten times my size, but that's another consideration).

I appreciate your attempt to bring some sanity to NS. Alliances are a direct deterrent from me getting any RP experience, which really sucks.

[OOC: I also find it extraordinarily frustrating when it looks for all the world like there will be a fun RP with a major inter-alliance war and then it descends into flame wars and OOC bickering and results in a lot of IGNORING.

I think Praetonia hit the nail on the head when he mentioned one major problem with these RPs: When the line between IC and OOC gets too blurred. Far too often, the tensions between two countries turns into tensions between the two PEOPLE. There's a lot of shouting, a lot of accusations of Godmodery, number or tech wanking, and generally accusing someone of poor RP when it may NOT be warranted. The problem is that the ideals of telling a story and RPing well instead of focusing on who "wins" or who "loses" gets shoved aside.

The quasi war I'm in with Sdaeriji now is an example of what can go right with a war. IC, our two countries hate each other right now, but nothing could be further from the truth OOC. We're cooperating very heavily with regard to telling the story because we each have a vested interest in making sure that story gets told well.

News flash: If you "beat" someone in a war by numberwanking or techwanking, you haven't "won" squat. If you defined "winners" or "losers" by who the better RPer is, you may find some countries that got their tails kicked IC were the better RPers and better tellers of that story.]

I'm not a godmoder, or a complete n00b or a very rare newb (at least I don't think so, I could be wrong, of course), and to my knowledge, I'm not in any alliances. However, for some reason, maybe the above mentioned fact or something else, nobody really pays any attention to my threads and my posts. I have observed, numerous times, the alliance fiascos, though I have never taken part in them. It is distressing at times. I think maybe smaller alliances would produce better RP.

I agree that some alliance versus alliance wars get out of hand with flaming, but I think that a lot of us (in the alliances which I think some are specifically referring too... NATO and RWC) who have some experience in the RPing sector, and do not blatantly ignore because we think we'll lose (and we just want to have some fun), can actually make a huge alliance vs. alliance war work.

*looks over glasses at you*
*shakes head*

OOC:

I think Vastiva hit it on the head. It's the individual idiots that glomp together which in turn create more stupidity that is the problem, not the formation of alliances per say. Then it comes down to a process of trial and error to filter through who (and hopefully be extension any alliance that person belongs to) is a reasonable roleplayer.

*hands you a cookie*

[OOC: I also find it extraordinarily frustrating when it looks for all the world like there will be a fun RP with a major inter-alliance war and then it descends into flame wars and OOC bickering and results in a lot of IGNORING.

I think Praetonia hit the nail on the head when he mentioned one major problem with these RPs: When the line between IC and OOC gets too blurred. Far too often, the tensions between two countries turns into tensions between the two PEOPLE. There's a lot of shouting, a lot of accusations of Godmodery, number or tech wanking, and generally accusing someone of poor RP when it may NOT be warranted. The problem is that the ideals of telling a story and RPing well instead of focusing on who "wins" or who "loses" gets shoved aside.

The quasi war I'm in with Sdaeriji now is an example of what can go right with a war. IC, our two countries hate each other right now, but nothing could be further from the truth OOC. We're cooperating very heavily with regard to telling the story because we each have a vested interest in making sure that story gets told well.

News flash: If you "beat" someone in a war by numberwanking or techwanking, you haven't "won" squat. If you defined "winners" or "losers" by who the better RPer is, you may find some countries that got their tails kicked IC were the better RPers and better tellers of that story.]

Ah, but there's the rub. Alliance (A) wants a war. Alliance (B) doesn't. What happens? Snarkfest, resulting in ... nothing.

You could also go to Jerk (a) performs lots of inflammatory actions trying to piss off Alliance (B). Result - Jerk (a) is wiped out by the IGNORE cannons and no one RPs at all.

What is the cause? Alliance (A) and Jerk (a) both forgot to OOCly ask Alliance (B) if they wanted to RP with them!

Goes back to that "basic level of respect" thing most "EYE IZ N 1337 RPER" twits are lacking in.

I agree that some alliance versus alliance wars get out of hand with flaming, but I think that a lot of us (in the alliances which I think some are specifically referring too... NATO and RWC) who have some experience in the RPing sector, and do not blatantly ignore because we think we'll lose (and we just want to have some fun), can actually make a huge alliance vs. alliance war work.
I dispute that such a war could ever work, and I would say that you and your assorted allies are trying to start this massive war for no IC reasons whatsoever, but because you think it would be fun OOC. That's the kind of RP that will never work...

Yes, because God forbid we have any fun around here. :rolleyes:

OOC:

The answer to this I think is a bit more complex. Alliances are natural, but I don't think it's fear of being "gangbanged" by the international community that prevents invasion today. I assume that's what you mean here since, if I understand thing correctly, France, Spain, Germany, and Poland enjoy, for the most part, pretty good relations. But, if you go back in time a bit, well, Germany did invade Poland and it took the international community to finally do something, at great cost. Nobody was daring to stop Germany earlier at that time, circa 1938.

As well, the general feeling and attitude of the "international community" has changed as well. After all, when Japan conquered Korea in 1910 the international community did nothing since, well, everyone was looking to own a piece of real estate at that time. In other words, the general feeling of the international community will dictate what an individual nation can get away with. It also comes down to the amount of will the international community can muster. If nation A invades nation B, then nations D, E, and F may decry A's actions. But if A can whip their collective asses (or damage them a great deal), then the "international community" can do nothing. That why we see the vaunted "international community" or, for that matter any fairly good-sized alliance, try to enforce their will on what they view as smaller and weaker alliances or nations.

I think Chellis and yourself basically have it if you Combine the two in certain ways, Yes Nations are Imperialistic back then like they were in Earlier NS days, but like the modern world NS has turned into a very protection and Defense Dominated Society, where Super Powers Rain in Real Life, here Super Alliances Rain, what has been Happening in Europe Lately is like the Soviet Union and the USA from Real life Having a Cuban Missile Crises in some ways, In NS alliances Rule in Real Life Super Power Nations Rule.

But the Problem with Real life Compared to NS itself is, in Real Life there is one Single Super Power that has the ability to Invade Nation and not get invaded in Return (USA & Iraq) but if that Nation was to attack Say China or Russia or Europe it would turn into a World war, Real Life nations are Interesting on this level because certain nations can invade others without Problems same goes with NS on certain levels, its just when a RL Nation or Alliance in NS itself steps a little to far they can get themselves in a bloody mess.

OCC: I think I rambled on too much :D

Dr_Twist.

I agree that some alliance versus alliance wars get out of hand with flaming, but I think that a lot of us (in the alliances which I think some are specifically referring too... NATO and RWC) who have some experience in the RPing sector, and do not blatantly ignore because we think we'll lose (and we just want to have some fun), can actually make a huge alliance vs. alliance war work.

I dispute that such a war could ever work, and I would say that you and your assorted allies are trying to start this massive war for no IC reasons whatsoever, but because you think it would be fun OOC. That's the kind of RP that will never work...

OOC: Exactly. No respect for the other person, just juvenile "oooh, lets invade Cleveland! It looks fun!" twitterdom. *sighs*

I agree that alliances make it not fun to RP.

Have you noticed that Hataria and Seph hasn't posted in a long while? This is probably because of the dog-piles on them.

Hataria was looking for 1 vs 1 nation fight, but instead, he got dogpiled on big time. Then he was forced to god-mod as he was usually the only nation fighting aganist like 10 invading nations.

I believe that if Hataria wasn't dog-piled on, then he could have improved his RP'ing without resorting to god-moddery to "remain alive".

Alliance dogpiles will always lead to god-moddery if the war is aganist a small nation or a group of small nations.


When I want to have a good 1 vs 1 RP or dynamic RP, I worry that the person I might be fighting or have a "cold war" with would pull 1000 of his allies in, then destroy my nation IC'ly. Then afterwards, I can't RP with my nation because these 1000 people would "ignore" me if I acted like Hataria, poofing my nation back to normal industrial, economical, territory, etc. levels as if the dogpile never happened.

I wouldn't be able to make any decent RP's that people would stand up and take notice because I'd be put on hard ignore or something. That'll ruin my eager and ambition for this game and RP'ing in general.

Again, Hataria is a perfect example of this. He refuses to accept multi-alliance nuking or invading of his territory, then gets ignored when he tries to RP 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2 battle with his nation back at normal levels (like in the NS stats page).

Also do you guys remember Feminany? She quit because of the exact same thing. Alliances and such beating her nation up, and god-modding just because she banned men.


These kinds of idiocy appall me. I'm only interested in trade alliances, and small military alliances with 1 - 5 members. I'm in two military alliances (me and Greater Sixth Reich.... me and Kopparbergs).

Hope I made sense. :)

I agree that alliances make it not fun to RP.

Have you noticed that Hataria and Seph hasn't posted in a long while? This is probably because of the dog-piles on them.

Hataria was looking for 1 vs 1 nation fight, but instead, he got dogpiled on big time. Then he was forced to god-mod as he was usually the only nation fighting aganist like 10 invading nations.

I believe that if Hataria wasn't dog-piled on, then he could have improved his RP'ing without resorting to god-moddery to "remain alive".

Alliance dogpiles will always lead to god-moddery if the war is aganist a small nation or a group of small nations.


When I want to have a good 1 vs 1 RP or dynamic RP, I worry that the person I might be fighting or have a "cold war" with would pull 1000 of his allies in, then destroy my nation IC'ly. Then afterwards, I can't RP with my nation because these 1000 people would "ignore" me if I acted like Hataria, poofing my nation back to normal industrial, economical, territory, etc. levels as if the dogpile never happened.

I wouldn't be able to make any decent RP's that people would stand up and take notice because I'd be put on hard ignore or something. That'll ruin my eager and ambition for this game and RP'ing in general.

Again, Hataria is a perfect example of this. He refuses to accept multi-alliance nuking or invading of his territory, then gets ignored when he tries to RP 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2 battle with his nation back at normal levels (like in the NS stats page).

Also do you guys remember Feminany? She quit because of the exact same thing. Alliances and such beating her nation up, and god-modding just because she banned men.


These kinds of idiocy appall me. I'm only interested in trade alliances, and small military alliances with 1 - 5 members. I'm in two military alliances (me and Greater Sixth Reich.... me and Kopparbergs).

Hope I made sense. :)

Right, I agree with a lot of people have said i.e. that massive alliance dog piles don't work. This is why I have suggusted to the RWC that we contain our responses to a few nations except in exceptional circumstances.

Essentially people attack smaller nations who make odd laws people really don't like because they can, e.g. DA makes god knows how many odd and loony laws/threads (no offence DA), but he doesn't tend to get dog piled on because he's big enough not to. Lets face it we have either all done it or been tempted to do it, either than or glass them. So unless everybody agrees not to dogpile on newish nations, who suddenly say they have 'banned men' or 'executed a few thousand political dissadents' etc, it will keep happening.

As for alliance dogpiles, they don't work. But I do agree IC tensions have sort of become OOC tensions and it doesn't work because it means all the players involved just look for faults in each others RPing technique.

I suggust to all nations that they try and keep OOC out of it (I try to), and in the case of alliance wars (especially the Spanish problem atm) I suggust those concerned don't ignore prior threads and deployments, also I suggust there is no alliance ignoring, because it just gets silly and ruins the game for everyone.

Erm... another ramble pardon me :)