NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC:

As I held the design copyright of the Doujin class along with Doujin himself. I was wondering if there was any interest in me selling these ships now that Doujin has departed?

Any feedback would be nice, and if demand is sufficient I may put the ship back on active sale again.

Looking forward to the replies.

[OOC: Absolutely!]

[Perhaps. I think you could make money out of it... or you could just refuse to sell them and keep the advantage for yourself and the select few who already have them. (This doesnt include me, before people shout bias).]

[Slap me with a frozen salomn and call me a wet behind the ears noob, but...Is the Doujin any good? Never seen any stats for it..]

Yup it's good. I thourght that Doujin had returned though??

May I buy one?

Without Escort the Doujin is crap... there are some tactical faults, but overall its pretty good. You shouldn't sell it though, keep it for those that have them =D
[Yes, this is bias, sinceI have one]

Without Escort the Doujin is crap... there are some tactical faults, but overall its pretty good. You shouldn't sell it though, keep it for those that have them =D
[Yes, this is bias, sinceI have one]

Well, to be fair, any capship is crap without an escort is crap. At least the Doujin can put up more of a fight than most. ;)

Yup it's good. I thourght that Doujin had returned though??

He returned for a couple of days, but I dont think he is an active RPer anymore.

[It's a well proven fact (both world wars, anyone?) that battleships can not sail alone and without escorts, they are simply too vunerable to attack either from the air, or below the ocean. Needing escorts does not a bad battleship make. And I'd be interested, just wouldn't mind seeing more info]

True, but the Doujin is also rather slow and there are some plans me and CR came up with if we were ever to face one.

Well, plans are plans, I also have several contingencies as to what to do if Im attacked.

The original stats can be found here:

www.geocities.com/doujincorp/doujinbb.html

Be advised that the version I will be selling is much more advanced.

I'd just like to wonder, how do tactical nukes fair against a Doujin?

We would be interested in procuring one, but we would probably have to do it on the installment plan. We surmise that Doujin-class super dreadnoughts take at least 10 NS years to build; if so, we could order two and pay installments as the ships are built. Is this possible?

Ministry of Defence
Democratic Republic of Evil Woody Thoughts

Well a direct hit or close proximity strike usually achieves the desired results, although like all naval vessels the Doujin's are highly resistent to the secondary and tertiary effects of a blast.

So, so long as you dont mind the inevitable nuclear retaliation, you should be able to destroy one.

We would be interested in procuring one, but we would probably have to do it on the installment plan. We surmise that Doujin-class super dreadnoughts take at least 10 NS years to build; if so, we could order two and pay installments as the ships are built. Is this possible?

Ministry of Defence
Democratic Republic of Evil Woody Thoughts

OOC: They do actually take 30 years to build and thats on a cut corners approach. The ships arent for sale yet, Im just gauging current demand.

Aust shall purchase one, though it will take up almost all of our navel buget.

[*reads the stats* 20 30 inch etc guns? Enough secondary weaponry to blow a entire carrier battle group out of the ocean? Owies..that ship's nasty..I want one..or three..and can afford it]

Aust shall purchase one, though it will take up almost all of our navel buget.

OOC: Interest noted.

We would like to purchase 6 Doujins if possible. And believe me I have enough money for them.

Sarzonia would like to purchase five.

TAGed for interest

OOC: Freethinkers, I'm more interested in the Leviathon and Thunder Child Class Dreadnoughts. Will you be bringing those back too?

Greetings, Freethinkers.

The Technocracy of Sharina would be interested in acquiring one or more Doujin Dreadnoughts. This would provide much needed protection of Sharina waters, as well as providing much needed insight into naval ship design.

President Rand Veristek

=================================
OOC:

I think if I could get at least some kind of super battleship, it could give me some insight IC'ly to develop my navy. Some of you might remember my "Need help building a navy" thread from a week or two ago.

I have four, they aren't all that they are cracked up to be. Ammunition reserves leave a lot to be desired, as a sustanied attack by well supported carrier bourne aircraft will damage it quite badly, at least in simulations.

I'd like something along the same lines, but smaller...I'll have to check the site.

The Leviathon class would be good

I would like to express my intrest in one deffinatly, two at most.

OOC- WEll, by hook or by crook, we've got four of the things already....original version, but with multiple modifications to the things that basically emulate the Mk2-Refit and Samtonian naval doctrine.

But keeping them around to sell would probably bring yet another arms race to the naval world. Hey, vets, remember that massive trend of creating and buying super dreads a few months back?

So, I'm going to go against the flow and advise against simply opening up the damn things for sales. Perhaps with extensive background checks, and in small numbers, but the rash of super dreadnoughts nearly ruined NS's navies a few months ago.

Do you want to be remembered as the person who brought the arms race back?

But hey, if you put the things up for sale, I'll still buy a few. I may not like the concepts but I sure like the ships.....

OOC: Since this is just, I gather, an opinions thread, I think it's okay for me to say that, well, BG has these things on ignore, firstly for being absurd, and secondly because hey, thirty years from the time it becomes possible to start building one of these things (never mind the slip and other industry presumably required from scratch, and the fact that if some are already sailing then they've been around for more than thirty years before anyone new gets one), we'll have all manner of absurd spaceage weapons ourselves and would probably just destroy them from orbit/genetically target the crew, or something else far fetched. And I can't be bothered with that theoretical one upmanship. Besides, that players willing to weild the daft contraptions are apparently uniformly prepared to respond to the battlefield (well, water) use of tactical nukes on wholly military targets by starting a strategic nuclear war just adds fuel to the why-would-anyone-want-to-play-with-you-anyway? fire.
Anyway, have fun.

OOC: Since this is just, I gather, an opinions thread, I think it's okay for me to say that, well, BG has these things on ignore, firstly for being absurd, and secondly because hey, thirty years from the time it becomes possible to start building one of these things (never mind the slip and other industry presumably required from scratch, and the fact that if some are already sailing then they've been around for more than thirty years before anyone new gets one), we'll have all manner of absurd spaceage weapons ourselves and would probably just destroy them from orbit/genetically target the crew, or something else far fetched. And I can't be bothered with that theoretical one upmanship. Besides, that players willing to weild the daft contraptions are apparently uniformly prepared to respond to the battlefield (well, water) use of tactical nukes on wholly military targets by starting a strategic nuclear war just adds fuel to the why-would-anyone-want-to-play-with-you-anyway? fire.
Anyway, have fun.

OOC: Well, all entitled to our opinions I suppose. Although technically you havent given me a reason why you would ignore it although you ahve made a good case for treating it with disdain. However, you do seem to not have factored in the a) necessity of an increase in size and displacement necessary for NS combat ships (although this thing is still big, it is towards much larger ships that tactical doctrine will go towards), and the fact of the horrendous nature of NS time means even a thirty year wait doesnt mean too much. I have been a nation for 300 NS years, I started out modern and have advanced ten years if that.

Can't argue with the point about tactical nukes, however. If some wish to be nuke happy, not much I can do.

OOC: Well we all remember the IDF/Doujin fiasco. That's the sort of situation these ships create. Perhaps sales should be limited to OMP and OMP-approved nations?

McLeod03.

Well, to be fair, I dont think the ships themselves were to blame for that. But anyway, thats up for debate.

I will, however, not sell these willy-nilly, and will probably adopt a Douinesque style of extremely small sales to the most trusted nations.

Well, not the ships themselves, but peoples reactions to them.

Well, not the ships themselves, but peoples reactions to them.

Well, it does happen, although I cant help what individual people do. I have never accepted thats Super-Dreadnoughts cause wars by themselves except when used or deploy by extremely stupid people. I will be careful. I will definitely take your advice though.

OOC: Although the Doujin is akin to a naval orgasm, I do not think they should be sold to the general public - and if sold to "trusted nations", then on small scale, with the mod sold being one generation behind "current upgrades".

Yes, even though I would give eyeteeth for one, sensibility is better in the long run.

OOC: Well, I suppose that it's that they're really quite far future tech and sometimes treated as if... not.
Really, I just don't like the absurdity of NS when played as if years pass in days and incredibly wealthy capitalist nations countain four billion people usually without trampling ten billion people into abject poverty, making unrealistic things like this possible. From my point of view specifically rather than just generally, I suppose I'd have to ignore it as I play a more realistic world. Well, anyway, I suppose you're not losing custom from BG since we're a communist state who'd have built it ourselves, anyway, without oppressing anybody or paying attention to copywrites :) I'm done!

OOC: Well, I suppose that it's that they're really quite far future tech and sometimes treated as if... not.
Really, I just don't like the absurdity of NS when played as if years pass in days and incredibly wealthy capitalist nations countain four billion people usually without trampling ten billion people into abject poverty, making unrealistic things like this possible. From my point of view specifically rather than just generally, I suppose I'd have to ignore it as I play a more realistic world. Well, anyway, I suppose you're not losing custom from BG since we're a communist state who'd have built it ourselves, anyway, without oppressing anybody or paying attention to copywrites :) I'm done!

Haha. Fair enough, I won't argue with those who wish to keep things more closer to the real world, although I (and many others) would argue that this thing is post modern tech. I fought through about 60 pages of threads to prove that. :P

I think they should be put on sale.....I myself would be very interested in buying one....but I agree that they should be sold in small numbers, to stop the above-mentioned situation if everyone ends up owning them, rendering other ships useless and turning naval warfare into a farse decided by who has the most of these.

[I'm not real hot about the idea of selling Doujins again, mostly because I want to see them in as few hands as possible. However, the fact that I have six Gehennas (modified Doujins) with options to build two more might have something to do with it.]

despite the ramblings you may have seen on the OMP board concerning any crookfur stance i would say sell them but with restrictions at least as strict if not stricter than Doujin's original sales.

I'd give you 4 Trillion for the prod rights, and 8 Trillion not to sell them to anyone else.

(raises hand) I want a Doujin and it wouldn't even be deployed anywhere. It's be part of my future Home Fleet >_> <_<.

That's right, just ONE.

I'd give you 4 Trillion for the prod rights, and 8 Trillion not to sell them to anyone else.

[That'll get you five Doujins with twenty-five billion to spare. As it is, Freethinkers isn't going to give out production rights.]

Aren't Doujins 250 Billion?

We are interested in procuring the Doujin's production rights for 8 trillion USD, we believe that these ships should only be in the hands of the capable and trustworthy nations.

Yours,

Grand Inquisitorial Lord Matthias, Keeper of the Seal, Guardian of the Tome

As a member of the OMP I can assume that The Freethinkers classifies us as a trustworthy nation to hold a Doujin.

Aren't Doujins 250 Billion?

[The originals were, there have been two major design modifications since then and the price has only gone up. In fact, that 750 billion tag is for the second gen Doujin, I don't know what the price is on the third gen.]

OOC: Is there SS? :P Well, they are certainly going up in price, although nowhere near $750 billion a copy.

I think I might just make a certain number of vessels and cap maximum purchases of two or three vessels.

And no, production rights will NEVER be sold. Super-dreadnought proliferation has to be controlled, unfortunately.

Edit:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/The_Freethinkers/DoujinBBCN1.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/The_Freethinkers/DoujinBBCNsmall.jpg

OOC: Is there SS? :P Well, they are certainly going up in price, although nowhere near $750 billion a copy.

I think I might just make a certain number of vessels and cap maximum purchases of two or three vessels.

And no, production rights will NEVER be sold. Super-dreadnought proliferation has to be controlled, unfortunately.


[That's the price Doujin quoted, if that's wrong then I was misinformed.

*gives Freethinker a pair of shades and then turns to the avidly watching crowd*
*takes out a pen-shaped device and presses a button, which produces a bright flash and erases the specific memory of there being a third Doujin refit in everyone who isn't wearing MiB-approved shades*

Any rumors of a third Doujin refit are lies spread be fearmongers and the Black Helicopter crowd. There is no third generation Doujin class.

Btw, how are those cruisers coming?]

OOC: IMHO, I'd say keep these off the market, having these massivee ships have their pros and cons, but if you hit it in the right spot, the thing goes on down, and also as someone mentioned earlier, the quicckest way to take one of these things out fast is with a tac nuke, but if someone uses that, they'll have the world at their throats because they used a tacti, I dont know if the owner would mind as much, but hell, selling these things could lead to the destruction of many nations, and at the moment, I think they're just too impractical, but that's just me.

I mentioned the tac nuke.

All the better for me, since I ordered 3 Doujins >.>

[OOC: If people really want superdreads and they cant buy Doujins, why dont you just put some effort into it and make a decent design of your own? It isnt impossbile...]

I mentioned the tac nuke.

All the better for me, since I ordered 3 Doujins >.>
All you really gotta do is fill a couple o arsenal ships full o ASW missiles flyin at really low altitude and take out the escorts with one volley, then launch the rest at the doujin, if that doesn't do it, put a NE Nike deep strike sub under it and blast a few holes in with torps...

OOC: IMHO, I'd say keep these off the market, having these massivee ships have their pros and cons, but if you hit it in the right spot, the thing goes on down, and also as someone mentioned earlier, the quicckest way to take one of these things out fast is with a tac nuke, but if someone uses that, they'll have the world at their throats because they used a tacti, I dont know if the owner would mind as much, but hell, selling these things could lead to the destruction of many nations, and at the moment, I think they're just too impractical, but that's just me.[OOC: And they'd set themselves up for full scale nuclear retaliation.]

[OOC: If people really want superdreads and they cant buy Doujins, why dont you just put some effort into it and make a decent design of your own? It isnt impossbile...][OOC: It's not impossible to design one, but it takes some effort to design a GOOD one.

There aren't very many really good SD designs out there, but you can find the best ones with a little effort...]

[Yeah, you do need to put effort into it. The ones that someone has obvious just written up a few random stats in 20 minutes are rather annoying, but I think that there are good ones such as those designed by Granzi and (dare I say it) Sarzonia and I.

OOC: I'd like to have one just for the asthetic value, also, it'd make a kickass flagship! So, I'm hoping that I'll be allowed to have one, yes one, I don't want loads of uber dreadnoughts swimming about with their uber guns.

If I use the Doujin, it'll be as a centrepiece for some interesting RP.

Who has the most Doujins? I have three, since they looked uber and everyone thought they were uber, at the time.

Correct Illior, with tactics like that the Doujin easily becomes susceptible. Also, mine and CR's strategy would work well if executed properly.
i.) Distract ship with bounced sonar, radar jammings
ii.) crack S.F team sneak on board
iii.) one team hits the armoury, the other hits the bridge
iiii.) You got ya-self a Doujin!

Well, that might work, assuming that you can get past it's, y'know, battlegroup.

Which is why, as Illior mentioned, I prefer submarines with really, really big (supercavitating, sometimes) torpedo. I am currently modifying my two first gens a whole lot (mainly, I don't like the 30 inchers and I'm converting the defensive systems, but there are some other changes.)

Who has the most Doujins? I have three, since they looked uber and everyone thought they were uber, at the time.

Correct Illior, with tactics like that the Doujin easily becomes susceptible. Also, mine and CR's strategy would work well if executed properly.
i.) Distract ship with bounced sonar, radar jammings
ii.) crack S.F team sneak on board
iii.) one team hits the armoury, the other hits the bridge
iiii.) You got ya-self a Doujin!


[Uh, right, and how about those thousand Marines aboard a Doujin? Bridges and armouries are the two most heavily guarded places inside a ship during combat, and there's also the fact that there are several squad machine guns, and 20mm or 30mm cannons that could stop anybody from boarding.

Oh, and I believe I have the most Doujins at the moment, I operate six.]

I would like to purchase one or two, just to serve as a flagship, or a personal naval transport for myself, as Presidential Air Transports are easily destroyed. Air Force One's can be destroyed as they are cumbersome jets and are not just suspectible to enemy fire, but turblence and mechnical failure. A naval "Navy Force One" would suffer a mechnical failure, and not sink or crash, unlike an "Air Force One".

If I use a Doujin as a personal "International Presidental Transport" for myself, it would be extremely difficult to assasinate me or destroy my envoys.

The one or two Doujins I am interested in acquiring wouldn't be used in war, except if my nation is under invasion. These ships will only be used defensively.

I am prepared to pay the $750 billion tag per Doujin.

Live well,
President Rand Veristek

Inkana would like to purchase 8 Doujins, and the production rights if possible(although I doubt it).

Official Statement from The Proletariat Commonwealth of The Island of Rose:

We would like to purchase one Doujin. We promise to only use it for defensive purposes. My allies, Hamptonshire, Scandanavian States, Praetonia, and Inkana can vouch that we will not abuse the power of this almighty Dreadnought. It will also only operate within Rosian waters and will never be used in any offensive actions.
Nikolai Geoff
Rosian Minister of Commerce
http://www.ssinf.sv.gov.yu/face/amirn2.jpg

Bubbles go up the chimney, most of them pop.

[Guys, he isn't selling them yet. This is just a general inquery.]

[Guys, he isn't selling them yet. This is just a general inquery.]

((OOC: Just letting him know I WANT ONE!))

I do NOT want Hogsweat having a Doujin. Period.

Ok, here is my take. I don't care if Jim sells the Doujins or not, but I want to know who he sells them too because there are people that I said would never ever get their hands on one and I will make sure that stays true.

I would be willing to buy one or two, mainly for training exercises (not live fire of course)

Doujins will inevitably catapult naval warfare into Uber-dreadnoughts and Uber-dreadnought counters if they are sold, and as such, they should be restricted, and maybe only play a miniscule part in wars.

Doujins will inevitably catapult naval warfare into Uber-dreadnoughts and Uber-dreadnought counters if they are sold, and as such, they should be restricted, and maybe only play a miniscule part in wars.

*snorts* Dude, you've already missed the show. The Doujin is still supreme, which is a good thing given just how many Doujins I have. However, I'm not sure just how long the Doujin class is going to reign supreme. *grin*

I do NOT want Hogsweat having a Doujin. Period.
Too late. You ain't exactly active, and to be honest, you can't stop me making purchases with Freethinker, who if I remember right actuallly designed the vessel anyway.

Doujins will inevitably catapult naval warfare into Uber-dreadnoughts and Uber-dreadnought counters if they are sold, and as such, they should be restricted, and maybe only play a miniscule part in wars.
No that hasnt happened. Everyone is so in awe of Freethinkers's ship-design skills that no respectable RPer will dare try to overtake the design. It sounds odd, but it's true.

Doujins will inevitably catapult naval warfare into Uber-dreadnoughts and Uber-dreadnought counters if they are sold, and as such, they should be restricted, and maybe only play a miniscule part in wars.
I do not agree. As we have found out, the Doujin is the practical limit of size. And, its fatal flaws, along with the flaws of other large ships, can not be avoided.

I will stick with destoyers,cruisers,battleships, and carriers for my battle groups. No super ships for me.

Freethinkers, in the OMP thread I wasn't sure, are you willing to sell one of the retired ones to a country (well, internal conspiracy) of a country that does not have one?

They're old, no doubt, but still effective as a show of force.

No that hasnt happened. Everyone is so in awe of Freethinkers's ship-design skills that no respectable RPer will dare try to overtake the design. It sounds odd, but it's true.

no, many have tried to design a ship that could surpass the doujin (basicly every super dreadnaught that isnt a doujin). Problem is the freethinkers has such good rl knowledge of ship design that the doujin is prettty hard to surpass without just being un-original and building something bigger with more guns.

no, many have tried to design a ship that could surpass the doujin (basicly every super dreadnaught that isnt a doujin). Problem is the freethinkers has such good rl knowledge of ship design that the doujin is prettty hard to surpass without just being un-original and building something bigger with more guns.
Yar and pretty much all of them were smaller and less powerful or godmodded pieces of junk.

No that hasnt happened. Everyone is so in awe of Freethinkers's ship-design skills that no respectable RPer will dare try to overtake the design. It sounds odd, but it's true.

I concur.

I am just going to connect a bunch of battleships, aircraft carriers, destroyers and submarines.. It will do the exact same thing as the Doujin, but cost much less.

Wait.... wouldn't that be pointless...

Maybe I'll just invest in (more mobile and versitile) carrier groups instead of "putting all of my eggs in one basket"

Ahh.. in case you missed the point, the reason noone else has built a successful counterpart to the Doujin, is becuase it is not needed, carrier groups with traditonal scale battleships can do the exact same job.


Sorry for beating a dead horse.

I am just going to connect a bunch of battleships, aircraft carriers, destroyers and submarines.. It will do the exact same thing as the Doujin, but cost much less.
No, that wouldnt work. In fact it would just fall apart. The Doujin is not just a load of other ships stuck together.

No, that wouldnt work. In fact it would just fall apart. The Doujin is not just a load of other ships stuck together.
I was being sarcastic :rolleyes:

Superdeadnaughts fill a niche. They are:

1) Hugely powerful - several arsernal ships + a super carrier + some truely huge guns all roled into one.

2) They absorb a lot of firepower than would otherwise be directed at other ships.

3) They allow a maritime power to carry out "Superdreadnaught Diplomacy". These things are terrifying.

4) They also have a major national prestige factor involved.

Superdeadnaughts fill a niche. They are:

1) Hugely powerful - several arsernal ships + a super carrier + some truely huge guns all roled into one.

2) They absorb a lot of firepower than would otherwise be directed at other ships.

3) They allow a maritime power to carry out "Superdreadnaught Diplomacy". These things are terrifying.

4) They also have a major national prestige factor involved.

5) It's fun to drop their names at tense diplomatic discussion: "Oh well, if you still want to go to war with me then- Oh! Will you look at the time? I've got to go take a cruise on my Doujin. Wait, you didn't know I have one? Yea, I have one here, my private yacht, and a few more sitting back at my vacation home. Would you like to see a demonstration?"

Ahh.. in case you missed the point, the reason noone else has built a successful counterpart to the Doujin, is becuase it is not needed, carrier groups with traditonal scale battleships can do the exact same job.


Sorry for beating a dead horse.

But what about a carrier group with a Doujin..

But what about a carrier group with a Doujin..
what about 2 carrier groups, and any reply to that TG is sent you +1 week ago

what about 2 carrier groups, and any reply to that TG is sent you +1 week ago
TPM - the only people who have SDs have massive navies anyway, and dont need an extra CBG. They're just add-ons to a regular navy which are used for psycological and political reasons and much as cost-for-cost ship kills.

what about 2 carrier groups, and any reply to that TG is sent you +1 week ago
What about two carrier groups with four doujins? Oh, and yes.. I deated it, and couldn't be arsed to reply, but sure, you can invade me if you want. Just don't whine when I/my allies pound your ass.

[Hogsweat, I'd prefer you wait until we finish our little dust up, that way he knows what he can't invade. Speaking of which, I'd really like it if you'd post already, and get on with the RP in general.]

What about two carrier groups with four doujins? Oh, and yes.. I deated it, and couldn't be arsed to reply, but sure, you can invade me if you want. Just don't whine when I/my allies pound your ass.
you have a short memory, and I didn't say anything about invading you.... forget it :rolleyes:

Well, the fact is still that like Praetonia said, dreadnaughts are mostly a huge show of power for larger nations who can afford a number of these ships while still having sufficent capabilities in their smaller forces (e.g. CVBGs, small battleship surface action groups), whereas it would be wiser for smaller nations (or larger nations like me who wants to focus on more flexibility and mobility in naval formations) to acquire a number of smaller carrier battle groups and some smaller <200,000 ton battleships, as they simply don't need that kind of firepower when they could improve on their warfighting capabilities in their smaller surface action units.

Sending a superdreadnaught near a nation is probably similar in nature to the United States sending carrier battle groups loaded with aircraft and Tomahawks near a smaller nation.

You send a SuperDreadnaught for one reason - to scare the pants off the other nation.

If they're actually stupid enough to fire at it, it can suck up dozens of hits, while dishing out significant damage on its own.

If they figure out you're serious from this behemoth parked in their front lawn, a peaceful settlement can be reached.

Two simple solutions to eliminate Doujins or Superdreadnoughts:

1. Tactical Nukes.

2. Mass submarine attack. (30+ submarines making suicidal runs aganist the Doujin or other Superdreadnought)

So as you can see, I'm not afraid of Doujins or other Superdreadnoughts, and I can't be intimidated by them.

Also, you can always starve the Doujin / superdreadnoughts into submission by destroying supply ships. No food, water, gas, ammo, etc. = dead Doujin. ;)

Several problems with your proposal Sharina:

1. Using a tactical nuke against a Doujin will likely result in your country getting glassed as a response.

2. Doujin-class ships are not meant to travel alone. They need a lot of escorts and any intelligent naval commander will send a large ASuW-capable escort fleet with it.

3. The Doujin or other SDs will often carry a lot of their own supplies so it will take a while before you "starve" a Doujin to death.

4. Some people who have them might be just crazy enough to use them on you which = destruction of your portside cities.

1. Using a tactical nuke against a Doujin will likely result in your country getting glassed as a response.

Any nation that is willing to annihilate hundreds of millions of innocents just because they lost a single unnecessarily large ship probably shouldn't be sold one in the first place...

Any nation that is willing to annihilate hundreds of millions of innocents just because they lost a single unnecessarily large ship probably shouldn't be sold one in the first place...I'm making the point that if you try a nuclear attack on one ship, it will most likely result in a nuclear retaliation, so that's the risk you run.

I can't speak to everyone who sells SDs, but I know with the ones I sell, I perform extensive background checks on the country involved before I sell. I do that even for my defacto battlecruiser (the Vanguard-class).

Any nation that is willing to annihilate hundreds of millions of innocents just because they lost a single unnecessarily large ship probably shouldn't be sold one in the first place...
OOC: That's teh truth of nuclear deterrent: "If you nuke me, I nuke you". By this, neither could you exclude a nuclear attack on a surface ship that is the property of the nation's navy. The deterrent is there - if you feel fine nuking a ship and ignoring the deterrent, feel free, but then you have to face an aftermath.

What a deterrent would be when the nation's nuclear deterrent policy doesn't allow "nuking" back after one of their sovereign properties are the victim of nuclear weapons? Simple as that.

Using nukes is beyond the pale where most nations are concerned, if you nuke a Doujin you bring both nations over that line and there is no longer any moral ascendency involved. There is no moral difference between killing 7,000 people with nukes and killing a billion people with nukes, both are equally bad.

Tactical nukes are too localised for anybody to start lobbing full-scale, nuclear ICBMs around. Bearing in mind that if the guy who just sank your ship has tactical nukes, there's a fair chance he has his own ICBMs. He sees your nukes coming at him, he'll launch his just as quickly, followed by all his allies and all your allies, and so on and so forth until you all die...

All because of a single ship.

Well even if you respond with your own strictly tactical weapons the other side is just as likely to resort to strategic weapons so you might aswell skip that step and get the drop on them.

Its a bit like Elmer Fudd and Bugs bunney with the weapons in thier version of the barber of seville (shotgun, machine gun, cannon, bigger cannon, even bigger cannon etc)

Hmm...

Some nations do have SDI systems, and they have RP'ed it. Some SDI systems include lasers, ABM's, exotic measures, or other ingenious ideas.


In addition, whats to stop me from launching 100 ICBM's with conventional warheads aganist the Doujin? Use Napalm, corrosive acid chemicals, fire-bombs (forgot the name of these bombs that are the most powerful non-nuke ones, ignite atmosphere and gas?) and a plethora of other explosives.

Basically, the Doujin isn't invincible as many people seem to believe that they are. They are just BIG floating targets with a neon bright bulls-eye "painted" on them. Destroying a Doujin or a Superdreadnought would be a morale boost for the person who sinks them, and a morale loss for the player who has the ship.

Morale can and does make a difference in warfare. :)

Hmm...

Some nations do have SDI systems, and they have RP'ed it. Some SDI systems include lasers, ABM's, exotic measures, or other ingenious ideas.


In addition, whats to stop me from launching 100 ICBM's with conventional warheads aganist the Doujin? Use Napalm, corrosive acid chemicals, fire-bombs (forgot the name of these bombs that are the most powerful non-nuke ones, ignite atmosphere and gas?) and a plethora of other explosives.

Basically, the Doujin isn't invincible as many people seem to believe that they are. They are just BIG floating targets with a neon bright bulls-eye "painted" on them. Destroying a Doujin or a Superdreadnought would be a morale boost for the person who sinks them, and a morale loss for the player who has the ship.

Morale can and does make a difference in warfare. :)


Why waste all thsoe ICBMs which aren't exactly designed to hit a moveing target? just use thousands of cruise missiles or better yet ...tactics ;)

Two simple solutions to eliminate Doujins or Superdreadnoughts:

1. Tactical Nukes.
If you fired any nuke of any kind at a Praetonian supedreadnaught, whether or not it gets past the formidable anti-missile defences, I would destroy your entire navy with nuclear missiles.

2. Mass submarine attack. (30+ submarines making suicidal runs aganist the Doujin or other Superdreadnought)
All of your subs would be picked up and destroyed on active sonar in the first layer or two of escorts.

So as you can see, I'm not afraid of Doujins or other Superdreadnoughts, and I can't be intimidated by them.

Also, you can always starve the Doujin / superdreadnoughts into submission by destroying supply ships. No food, water, gas, ammo, etc. = dead Doujin. ;)
SDs are nuclear powered, therefore fuel is not an issue, neither really is food (which can be airlifted in anyway) as it has about 6 months to completely obliterate any of yuor cities within its substantial range.

Although really I do something called "escort my convoys" which most other nations do also...


On the 100s of conventional ICBMs, not only would this be incredibly expensive, but very few would get past the anti-missile defences, and as far as Im aware napalm doesnt do much to NBC sealed ships :/

you have a short memory, and I didn't say anything about invading you.... forget it :rolleyes:
Well you did mention a war.. and I don't invade people. Full stop.

All of your subs would be picked up and destroyed on active sonar in the first layer or two of escorts.


SDs are nuclear powered, therefore fuel is not an issue, neither really is food (which can be airlifted in anyway) as it has about 6 months to completely obliterate any of yuor cities within its substantial range.

Although really I do something called "escort my convoys" which most other nations do also...


On the 100s of conventional ICBMs, not only would this be incredibly expensive, but very few would get past the anti-missile defences, and as far as Im aware napalm doesnt do much to NBC sealed ships :/


You raise some interesting points, Praetonia.

First, I could send these submarines, and have them blow a hole through the escorts if necessary. I could design or build submarines with anti-torpedo or anti-depth charge capabilities, then have them sink the destroyers, then cruisers, then the carriers, and the Doujin or SD's in the center of the navy. The loss of submarines would be considerable, but it would pay off to have the SD sunk.

Second, the SD would need new Uranium to continue nuclear operation, correct? All nuclear power requires influx of new uranium, new fuel rods, etc.

Third, I can always send submarines or such to sink supply ships / envoys. You would have to divert a good number of warships to protect the supply ships, or risk them being sunk. If these supply ships are sunk, then your fleet would use up food and fresh-water. Then you would be forced to choose which ship crews will get the food, which would deprive morale and cause starvation in the escort ships as well. Also, unless every destroyer and cruiser are nuclear powered, they would need oil and fuel to continue running, and with no supply ships, you're out of luck.

Also, you'd need lubrication and ammo to continue bombarding targets. The Doujin and escort ships will run out of ammo, if their supply ships are sunk, rendering them into big old bears with no teeth or claws.


If you do send air transports with fuel and food, these airplanes are very easy to take down. C-5 Galaxies are pretty easy to find on account of its massive size, and several missiles or fighters would easily destroy the c-5 Galaxies or other transport planes.


If you send warships to escort your supply ships, you run the risk of two things. First, you'd run the risk of having these warships sunk by submarines if you only send like 10 or 15 warships. However, if you send 100 or more warships to give good protection aganist submarines, your task force with the SD's in it will lose its strength as its warships are "transferred" to protect the supply convoys.

Then there will be fewer ships protecting the Doujin or SD's. Then submarines would have an easier time getting in with fewer enemy ships protecting the Doujin.



Regarding napalm and other explosive material. If the Doujin or other SD's manage to survive my theoretical submarine attack on either the ships and their task force, or the supply convoys, I'd settle for rendering the Doujin or other SD's guns inoperational.

All I'd need to do is to deform the metal of the big gun barrels, via melting, buckling, or damage. Corrosive chemicals, high tempature explosives, or impact warheads could do the job. The guns will be ruined, so the SD would have to sail back to dry-dock or naval shipyard to have major repairs made to them.



I could launch 1000 or 2000 cruise missiles, or large ICBM's aganist the Doujin / other SD. Not even the best "anti" defenses can stop quantity. The saying "Quantity over Quality" rings true here, as it has been proved on several occasions.

The cost woild be high in terms of material and money, but it would be a huge morale boost when the Doujin / other SD is sunk. My troops would rally, while the invader's morale would drop as they lose their "flagship".


I can think of several other ways to destroy a Doujin / other SD's. Some of them include kamikaze planes destroying gun turrets, tungsten rods dropped from space, underwater missile silos, Dora style artillery shells, and so forth.


One last thing...

Cities can have a coastal wall, reducing potential damage. The Doujin or other SD's would use up a lot of ammo punching holes through a thick coastal wall. Then attrition / lack of supply could set in (if I am successful in destroying supply convoys, either sea or air).

Neat; I might buy one - it would make a nifty base from which to build the Iowa Cannon, once we lifted it into space.


There is no moral difference between killing 7,000 people with nukes and killing a billion people with nukes, both are equally bad.

That may not be the stupidest thing I have ever heard, but I doubt it.

Rare nuclear attacks with low-yeild warheads against large, isolated, utterly military targets =/= total nuclear bombardment of civilian population centers with high-yeild strategic weapons.


Besides, most folks with the kit to play with these toys have likly got solid SDI; ICBM's wouldn't really be very effective, and would only invite retaliation.

The logical response would be the limited scale employment of your own tac nukes against their high-value military assets; if they don't have SDs, nuke a carrier group. Just restrict their use to extreamly high value military targets and trade one-for-one if you want to discourage their use; it's called a measured response.

1) You're using a submarine like a superdreadnaught, which it is not. The second a submarine shoots it gives away its position, almost every time. Then the sub has to fight for its life to get away, which is no trivial task given that no sub can outrin every ASW weapons or ship. Furthermore, you have not taken into account the absolute difficulty of blasting through a hundred or more escorts, especially given that most subs do not have that kind of weaponry.

2) Nuclear-powered ships only refuel once every twenty years or so.

3) Again, you are over-simplifying things. Most ships have at least six months worth of stores, I believe somebody pointed out that this is more than enough to reach a friendly home port. Furthermore, any fleet commander who does not place his supply ships in the hardest-to-get position within the fleet is an incompetent. So, inversely, any competent admiral will make it extremely hard for a sub to get to the supply ships.

4) Most of Freethinkers' DNs and SDs have enough gun ammo for 8 days continuous firing with fifteen second intervals. Next please.

5) C-5s can't land on carrier decks, please reference the size of the C-2 Grayhound next to the C-5 Galaxy and then rethink that statement. Furthermore, you assume that any navy that deploys a Doujin is incompetent enough to not know how to deal with any potential threats.

6) Supply ships, at least in my fleets, are integral to the fleet. So any ship that's escorting a Doujin is escorting one of the supply ships. Clever concept, isn't it?

7) That might work, although I have my doubts. Of course, that assumes that any aircraft is going to get close enough to drop such incendiaries.

8) I think you are perhaps understating the number of missiles you'd have to launch. Again, referencing one of my fleets, I've had my anti-aircraft/missile destroyers alone take down 5,000 cruise missiles and ask for more.

9) Iowa class ships have survived fully fueled and armed kamikazis, what makes you think a Doujin wouldn't? As for the others, I can't really comment, although they seems like quick fixes to me.

10) Yeah, maybe in a small destroyer. There isn't a sea wall in the world that's high enough to block the kind of point-blank shots you are assuming here, even at a gun's lowest elevation. Anything but a shell lobbed at point blank is going to go sailing over a wall, if not a friggin sky scraper.


As usual, I see nothing but unfounded assumptions and insinuated by incompetence by anybody who uses Doujins. The latter one I take as a personal insult, given that I deploy more Doujins (actually modified Doujins that I call the Gehenna class) than any nation in NS. Contrary to the monumentally wrong belief that you hold, I design and treat my fleets as cohesive units battle formations, of which my Gehenna class flagships are a small part. Apparently my formula works, I've never lost a naval battle.

Scandivian States, I'd like to address your points and issues.

1) You're using a submarine like a superdreadnaught, which it is not. The second a submarine shoots it gives away its position, almost every time. Then the sub has to fight for its life to get away, which is no trivial task given that no sub can outrin every ASW weapons or ship. Furthermore, you have not taken into account the absolute difficulty of blasting through a hundred or more escorts, especially given that most subs do not have that kind of weaponry.

Conventional standard subs may not have the firepower or weapons to do this. If a nation designs a better sub, as many ships and stuff in NS are like Sub +1, Battleship +1, etc. then this becomes more feasible.

I do not plan on following strict standards like use Los Angeles subs, Virginia subs, etc. I could try to design a sub with more torpedo tubes or larger torpedoes.

Also, I was referring to the possibility of using 20, 30, 50, 100 subs in a wave attack. First wave takes out escort ships like destroyers and cruisers. Second wave takes out the heavier destroyers and cruisers. Third wave takes care of aircraft carriers. Fourth wave attacks the battleships, superdread's, and Doujin's.


2) Nuclear-powered ships only refuel once every twenty years or so.

Point taken.


3) Again, you are over-simplifying things. Most ships have at least six months worth of stores, I believe somebody pointed out that this is more than enough to reach a friendly home port. Furthermore, any fleet commander who does not place his supply ships in the hardest-to-get position within the fleet is an incompetent. So, inversely, any competent admiral will make it extremely hard for a sub to get to the supply ships.

Granted, ships can stockpile supplies. However, supplies can and will run out at sea if they aren't resupplied by supply convoys.

Also, when a fleet departs for home ports to resupply as you have indicated, it would give me enough time to deploy new mines and undersea defenses. I also can regroup my naval forces. Even if the enemy does leave task forces in my waters to keep up the attack, that means there will be fewer enemy ships to deal with as some ships steam home for resupply.

4) Most of Freethinkers' DNs and SDs have enough gun ammo for 8 days continuous firing with fifteen second intervals. Next please.

Are you telling me that his ships can fire 46.080 rounds of ammo per cannon / gun without resupplying ammo?

Lets take a look at that.

46,080 shells per gun turret. That means 46,080 * 5 big cannon turrets, and these turrets would use heavy ammo. I'll be extreme and give the rounds a weight of 1 ton. That would mean the Doujin would need 230,400 tons just for the rounds.

Then add in the ammo for the smaller guns and AAA batteries. More tonnage.

Then use volume for all the ammo. All that ammo would take up A LOT of space.

5) C-5s can't land on carrier decks, please reference the size of the C-2 Grayhound next to the C-5 Galaxy and then rethink that statement. Furthermore, you assume that any navy that deploys a Doujin is incompetent enough to not know how to deal with any potential threats.

I was thinking of airdropped supply cargo from the C-5.

For supply planes that can land on the carrier, it would take a lot of work to distribute the supplies from the carrier to other warships, especially if the enemy or I are firing on the fleet.

For the times that the fleet isn't under direct fire, it would tie up hundreds of personnel to transfer the supplies around.

What if I chose that moment to attack with missiles, torpedoes, shells, etc?


One fact is that in the RP's I've seen, people leave out logistics, and focus more on "I blow you up!" and "post losses NOW!". Many common NS'ers don't realize how important logistics, tactics, or supplies are because again, they think their navies are "elites" that take few losses.

I do admit that there are some good naval tacticians out there on NS, and I would be proud to fight with or aganist them, to learn from them.

6) Supply ships, at least in my fleets, are integral to the fleet. So any ship that's escorting a Doujin is escorting one of the supply ships. Clever concept, isn't it?

The problem is your fleet would have to send some ships to protect the supply ships as they travel from your homelands to your Doujin and your navy around the Doujin.

That, or have the Doujin abandon bombarding my shores to travel all the way back to your home ports to escort the supply ships. Then when the Doujin comes back, I'll have new mines deployed or destroyed the remaining ships that didn't travel with the Doujin.

Basically the Doujin can't be everywhere at once. It bombards the coast and not escort the supply ships, or retreat from the coast and then escort supply ships from home base to enemy shores.

7) That might work, although I have my doubts. Of course, that assumes that any aircraft is going to get close enough to drop such incendiaries.

Granted, that may not work that well, but quantity does have its advantages.

I could produce cheap aircraft, or use UAV's.

Take this for instance. I could produce, say, 50,000 WW II planes cheaply, then send them storming over your fleet. While your fleet is busy wasting ammo shooting them down, I send in the missiles or real bombers.

The real missiles / bombers wouldn't have to sink the Doujin or any warship. They can simply kamikaze ram or target bomb the gun turrets, removing the bombardment capacity of the ships.

If you try to target my real "threat" bombers and missiles and conserve ammo, my WW II planes can ram your turrets, or become flying debris, cluttering up your ships with twisted metal and such.

8) I think you are perhaps understating the number of missiles you'd have to launch. Again, referencing one of my fleets, I've had my anti-aircraft/missile destroyers alone take down 5,000 cruise missiles and ask for more.

See above.

9) Iowa class ships have survived fully fueled and armed kamikazis, what makes you think a Doujin wouldn't? As for the others, I can't really comment, although they seems like quick fixes to me.

Again, you're assuming I want to sink the ships.

I probably won't attempt to outright sink any ships, just damage their gun turrets or missile bays. That would be enough to take them out of offense, forcing them to return to dry dock for repairs. That would buy me more time to produce more cheap planes or re-fortify my defenses.

10) Yeah, maybe in a small destroyer. There isn't a sea wall in the world that's high enough to block the kind of point-blank shots you are assuming here, even at a gun's lowest elevation. Anything but a shell lobbed at point blank is going to go sailing over a wall, if not a friggin sky scraper.

Yes, but the said wall would interfere with amphibious assault by marines and infantry. You'd either be faced with two choices, ignore the wall to bombard the city and have marines and infantry suffer terribly like at D-Day. Or use up lots of ammo smashing down the wall for the infantry to get through, and the city or area beyond the wall would suffer less damage.


As usual, I see nothing but unfounded assumptions and insinuated by incompetence by anybody who uses Doujins. The latter one I take as a personal insult, given that I deploy more Doujins (actually modified Doujins that I call the Gehenna class) than any nation in NS. Contrary to the monumentally wrong belief that you hold, I design and treat my fleets as cohesive units battle formations, of which my Gehenna class flagships are a small part. Apparently my formula works, I've never lost a naval battle.

The problem / issue is that many players underestimate tactics, supply, and logistics. They assume logistics and such is "automatic" and cry god-mod when someone with working knowledge of logistics pulls off stunning victories or battles by disrupting logistics.

Again, I'm not trying to insult players like Clan Smoke Jaguar, OMZ, or Freethinkers who actually know the nuances of naval warfare, and who won't call god-mod if logistics are disrupted. I mean no insult aganist you Scandivian States.

I'd be honored to RP or fight with / aganist players who have an actual grasp of naval tactics and warfare rather than "6736387638 missiles fired! Post losses NOW!" RP'ers.

1) I wasn't suggesting that you should only use RL technology, I rather loathe the stuff where NS is concerned myself. I'm just saying, there are some very real limits to what a submarine can do, especially against somebody who has refined ASW doctrine.

As for massive wolfpacks, such a tactic is seriously flawed. All it would take is for one or two subs to give themselves away and then it all goes down the shitter for the wolfpack. If you'd like me to expand upon that, I'd be glad to.

4) No, there are 1,000 shells per gun turret. Most people don't understand what I mean when I say a Doujin can keep up a bombardment like that, so allow me to clarify. I meant that a Doujin could fire one gun, then wait fifteen seconds, then fire the next gun, and then so on and so forth. A Doujin can keep that up for about eight days.

6) I don't think you are understanding me here. There are no supply ships travelling between home port and my fleets, you don't use convoys to resupply warships. Each of my fleets has a flotilla (18 ships) of supply ships organic to the combat organization. Also, I can speak for other people's ships, but Freethinkers' Clan Grant class supply ships can look after themselves.

10) SeaBees or their equivilant. And trust me when I say that the majority of the losses for Operation: Overlord came after the beaches were taken.


My point is that nobody who has a Doujin misunderstands the concept of logistics. Most of the problems come from people who buy ships like those of TPM; those kind of people don't understand the first thing about militaries, never mind logistics. You can count on them to be horribly unrealistic in every sense.

I appreciate our civil discussion about the Doujin. I'm glad that we're able to banter back and forth, rather than saying "I am right! You are wrong!".

1) I wasn't suggesting that you should only use RL technology, I rather loathe the stuff where NS is concerned myself. I'm just saying, there are some very real limits to what a submarine can do, especially against somebody who has refined ASW doctrine.

As for massive wolfpacks, such a tactic is seriously flawed. All it would take is for one or two subs to give themselves away and then it all goes down the shitter for the wolfpack. If you'd like me to expand upon that, I'd be glad to.

Hmm. I could theoretically stagger the positions of each wave of submarines, then have them fire all at once, instead of one after another.

Then the second wave would come in from a different vector, and ditto for third wave and so forth.

Also, there are some players who aren't that experienced with ASW warfare.

4) No, there are 1,000 shells per gun turret. Most people don't understand what I mean when I say a Doujin can keep up a bombardment like that, so allow me to clarify. I meant that a Doujin could fire one gun, then wait fifteen seconds, then fire the next gun, and then so on and so forth. A Doujin can keep that up for about eight days.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifing that. So this means that the Doujin has approximately 46,000 shells in total in storage, correct?

6) I don't think you are understanding me here. There are no supply ships travelling between home port and my fleets, you don't use convoys to resupply warships. Each of my fleets has a flotilla (18 ships) of supply ships organic to the combat organization. Also, I can speak for other people's ships, but Freethinkers' Clan Grant class supply ships can look after themselves.

D'oh. I was thinking of WW II type of supplying. Guess I watched too many History channel descriptions of naval battles in WW II. :p

10) SeaBees or their equivilant. And trust me when I say that the majority of the losses for Operation: Overlord came after the beaches were taken.

That could be true. The Nazis lost D-day because of incomptence and fear of Hitler. If I was in command of the Nazis, I would have deployed tanks and such at the beaches instead of holding them back in the city.

My coastal walls would have more defenses, such as small rail-guns, machine gun nests, large battleship class turrets, etc. alongside the walls.

My point is that nobody who has a Doujin misunderstands the concept of logistics. Most of the problems come from people who buy ships like those of TPM; those kind of people don't understand the first thing about militaries, never mind logistics. You can count on them to be horribly unrealistic in every sense.

Gotcha. Again, I appreciate our civil discussion. I have six Freedom SD's myself, purchased from Sarzonia and Praetonia.

1) That could work, especially with wolfpacks. However, the kind of cat-and-mouse game that would evolve into over time is a roll of the dice for both sides, it could break either way at any time.

4) Maybe for all of the guns, but I think there are just one thousand per main gun turret. Again, I'm not sure, you'd have to go to Freethinkers to be absolutely positive on that point.

6) Hmm, I've never much studied how fleets resupplied during WWII, but I think ships staged from ports after each major combat. I could very well be wrong, but I believe the convoy system was used mainly for major shipping operations between countries.

10) The thing that really lost Overlord for the Nazis was Hitler's insistence on being involved in military planning. He controlled and held back half of the heavy Panzer divisions that were assigned to help stop any invasion and didn't release them to Rommel until it was too late, so by the time they arrived to counter-attack the correlation of forces was seriously against them.

The Freedom's a good ship, but then again most of the OMP dreadnaughts and superdreadnaughts are excellent ships.

I'm trying to think up how to develop my unique navy, creating new types of ships and different hull styles. The problem is that I'm not very good with stats or tech-wank. I do understand tactics and strategy, though.

For example, I do understand that battleships need to be wide so that they can fire their guns without capsizing. But I don't understand how or what to make exact width like "beam is 176.9836 feet wide".

Another example is, I understand that ships need good engines, and strong ones at that. But I don't understand the numbers like 300,000 SBP or whatever.

Ditto for gun sizes. I know that 20 inch barrel guns are much more deadly than 10 inch guns, but I've noticed that some people say that 1 inch in barrels could make or break a ship.

I've been looking for some time for someone who would be willing to "teach" me or help me understand these kinds of things so that I can design good ships within reason, and have a solid "custom" navy.

Thought I'd post in here, as there are some good naval people here like Freethinkers, OMZ, Scandivian States, etc.

What I do with regard to the standard monohulled ships in my fleet is to look at ships that are similar to the designs I plan to build and then create my specs based on that. With the Trimarans, I generally use a figure of about 25-30 percent of the length for the ship's beam. I just try to come up with a reasonable figure for the draught in that case.

It generally works for me, at least.

Indeed. You dont need an exact beam, just a reasonably accurate figure within a certain range. As for guns, no one uses odd number calibres. I think this is because adding one inch can either make the gun much heavier (ie when you increase it to an odd calibre) or not that much heavier, but the proportional shell size increase is still the same.

I dont give a power rating. It isnt really necessary as no one ever uses it. Just say "Acompanythatmakesengines X-150 Diesel Electic Hyrbid" or Anothercompany NX-201 Nuclear reactor".

Im glad you're not goo at techwank. It's really irritating. Note that what might appear techwank actually isnt, simply because no one worth their salt uses real life ships, which are designed for an entirely different world and projected threat.

What I do with regard to the standard monohulled ships in my fleet is to look at ships that are similar to the designs I plan to build and then create my specs based on that. With the Trimarans, I generally use a figure of about 25-30 percent of the length for the ship's beam. I just try to come up with a reasonable figure for the draught in that case.

It generally works for me, at least.

Thanks for these tidbits of advice, Sarzonia.

By the way, what exactly is draught? Is it displacement or a fancy name for ship's width?

Indeed. You dont need an exact beam, just a reasonably accurate figure within a certain range. As for guns, no one uses odd number calibres. I think this is because adding one inch can either make the gun much heavier (ie when you increase it to an odd calibre) or not that much heavier, but the proportional shell size increase is still the same.

I dont give a power rating. It isnt really necessary as no one ever uses it. Just say "Acompanythatmakesengines X-150 Diesel Electic Hyrbid" or Anothercompany NX-201 Nuclear reactor".

Im glad you're not goo at techwank. It's really irritating. Note that what might appear techwank actually isnt, simply because no one worth their salt uses real life ships, which are designed for an entirely different world and projected threat.

Thanks for the advice, Praetonia. I get completely lost when I read RP's with tech-wank because I go like "Huh?" or "What the hell does this thingmajgy do?"

I like a simple hands on approach that anyone can understand. For example... "Sharina battleships fire missiles measuring 3 meters long with a 300 pound warhead." instead of "Sharina battleships vertically fire the 3 meter long X-27e missile that has hydrogen and helium fuel mixture, and it speeds towards the enemy at mach 3, while arming its 300 pounds worth of plastic and ceramic hybrid explosive warheads."

I honestly wouldn't be able to follow all that tech details.



Any of you naval guys know any good software programs I can get for free or trial versions so I can make good pictures of ships? Either 2-D or 3-D would be good.

Also, I'd like to post some stats of my naval vessel ideas either here or in a new thread and have some of you guys post feedback on it. How does that sound? :)

I enjoy naval stuff, because some really fun stuff can happen like tactics and "dueling" between ships.

Subs with torpedoes are another matter, but torpedoes will do less well than advertised against something like a very large SD group. I've personally employed subs against CVBGs before, but they are still cruise missile subs, not mentioning that compared to a CVBG group you will expect a lot of escorts - personally even with the slightest of my battleship, I will attach a carrier battle group and a lot of submarine escorts with it. Considering that any smart commander would've put his torpedoes at a shorter range in a more ideal firing spot, it would also expose the submarine to enemy defences. However, one good thing about this is that sometimes the position would be very good and doesn't necessarily require you to keep the wire connected, therefore your submarine could kick to flank speed, increase depth, fire some countermeasures and decoys, and perhaps also firing some more torpedoes at the bearing of your enemy who are possibly firing against you.

Now, however, mass attacks could pose a serious problem, as there are so many that long range ASW patrols (such as S-3B equivalent aircraft and picket patrols) probably wouldn't be able to do much, but then there's also the attack submarine. An attack sub might be able to finish off some enemy SSGNs in some situations, but still, not much. However, the downside of a mass submarine attack is that you'll be expending a lot of fuel, missiles (=excess money and a bigger lack of available munitions in your supply units), and most importantly, availability for operations. Your submarines aren't going to be able to go back to their mission after they done the first - they need maintenance, resupply, and so on.

However, with that, keep in mind that even if one submarine would expose a location, engaging submarines are not just "point your crosshairs" and hope that the torpedoes hit the submarine. You'd need good firing parameters from submarine platforms if you want to hit another submarine with one or a few shots, and with aircraft it's still a matter of actually identifying your target before you drop that torpedo. With submarine and ships however, if you go with passive sonar (which wouldn't expose your own tracks that much), it's simply not a matter of "point and shoot" - your crews will need to analyzse the data received and assemble together a good firing solution. Even with surface ships, a ship that cruises slowly with its towed array listening is still stealthier than one ship running at full speed or madly pinging away active sonar pulses.

As for the WWII fighters, there's absolutely no point in sending them. The Kamikaze of the WWII is used more in the manner of a precision missile, only unfortunately with a human mind instead of an autopilot inside. If you ever do plan to ram them in, chances are that you won't get a lot of success, aside from the fact that probably everyone of them is going to be shot down by short-range point defences. Not only automatic CIWS and RAM-like missiles, but also manned .50cals, 20mm, 30mm, and even Stingers.
If you are really serious about sending 50,000 people into a suicide mission though, it's not only the airframe that matters, but also the manpower. 50,000 people should be used much usefully, and it's still hard for any nation to find 50,000 determined, trained people to do the specific task carefully - and then you are going to send them into the cockpit of a FW-190 or a Zero and let them perish in a largely unsuccessful strike?

Subs with torpedoes are another matter, but torpedoes will do less well than advertised against something like a very large SD group. I've personally employed subs against CVBGs before, but they are still cruise missile subs, not mentioning that compared to a CVBG group you will expect a lot of escorts - personally even with the slightest of my battleship, I will attach a carrier battle group and a lot of submarine escorts with it. Considering that any smart commander would've put his torpedoes at a shorter range in a more ideal firing spot, it would also expose the submarine to enemy defences. However, one good thing about this is that sometimes the position would be very good and doesn't necessarily require you to keep the wire connected, therefore your submarine could kick to flank speed, increase depth, fire some countermeasures and decoys, and perhaps also firing some more torpedoes at the bearing of your enemy who are possibly firing against you.

Now, however, mass attacks could pose a serious problem, as there are so many that long range ASW patrols (such as S-3B equivalent aircraft and picket patrols) probably wouldn't be able to do much, but then there's also the attack submarine. An attack sub might be able to finish off some enemy SSGNs in some situations, but still, not much. However, the downside of a mass submarine attack is that you'll be expending a lot of fuel, missiles (=excess money and a bigger lack of available munitions in your supply units), and most importantly, availability for operations. Your submarines aren't going to be able to go back to their mission after they done the first - they need maintenance, resupply, and so on.

However, with that, keep in mind that even if one submarine would expose a location, engaging submarines are not just "point your crosshairs" and hope that the torpedoes hit the submarine. You'd need good firing parameters from submarine platforms if you want to hit another submarine with one or a few shots, and with aircraft it's still a matter of actually identifying your target before you drop that torpedo. With submarine and ships however, if you go with passive sonar (which wouldn't expose your own tracks that much), it's simply not a matter of "point and shoot" - your crews will need to analyzse the data received and assemble together a good firing solution. Even with surface ships, a ship that cruises slowly with its towed array listening is still stealthier than one ship running at full speed or madly pinging away active sonar pulses.

As for the WWII fighters, there's absolutely no point in sending them. The Kamikaze of the WWII is used more in the manner of a precision missile, only unfortunately with a human mind instead of an autopilot inside. If you ever do plan to ram them in, chances are that you won't get a lot of success, aside from the fact that probably everyone of them is going to be shot down by short-range point defences. Not only automatic CIWS and RAM-like missiles, but also manned .50cals, 20mm, 30mm, and even Stingers.
If you are really serious about sending 50,000 people into a suicide mission though, it's not only the airframe that matters, but also the manpower. 50,000 people should be used much usefully, and it's still hard for any nation to find 50,000 determined, trained people to do the specific task carefully - and then you are going to send them into the cockpit of a FW-190 or a Zero and let them perish in a largely unsuccessful strike?

OMZ, I appreciate you bringing up these points. I like having discussions with you guys, and I'm honestly learning a lot here.

I was posing an hypothetical situation in which I had four waves of subs. The first wave approaches the group of enemy ships from southeast. They line up targets in their firing parameters, as surface ships are supposedly easier to detect than other submarines. Then the first wave fires all their torpedoes in one volley instead of 1 sub after another sub. The first wave then swerves off in multiple directions to minimize casualties and confuse the enemy somewhat.

Then the second wave approaches from northwest, and does the same thing. They might have an easier time as a considerable number of ships deployed at the fringes of the navy would be either damaged or sunk.

The process repeats for the other waves.



Regarding kamikazes, three situations / issues come to mind.

1. If I am being invaded, and am in danger of being defeated. I would then have nothing to lose, just like the Japanese aganist the US. These men would serve a better use as airborne "missiles" than infantry troops that would be killed by enemy tanks or aircraft bombs.

2. The swarm of cheap planes would distract the enemy, as their radar would be flooded with thousands of signatures. Then the enemy would have considerable issues trying to pick out the real bombers (modern ones or UCAV's).

In addition, bringing down a swarm of cheap planes will use up good amounts of ammo, especially missiles. Once 50,000 or 100,000 or more missiles are used up, the invader would have two problems.

First, he would have to replace these huge number of missiles.

Second, these modern missiles would cost considerable amount of money to replace. Unless I'm mistaken, today's planes and missiles are more expensive to produce because of computers, laser beams, stealth material, fancy explosives, guidance systems, etc. than planes of 50 - 70 years ago.

Old era planes don't need latest modern tech to work. Old tech can overwhelm new tech through numbers. The Russians won WW II through sheer numbers. Their numbers overwhelmed the Germans / Nazis despite superior German military technology.

3. Use UAV's or UCAV's.



Hope this gives you a better perpsective on where and what I'm coming from, OMZ. :)

Sharina, draught is the Brit spelling of draft. I don't know if the pronounciation is the same or not, however.

Thanks, and just call me Omz or Omz222.

About the submarine, it's interesting, but one problem: how are you going to coordinate this one volley of torpedoes? With missiles it could be much more predictable, but keep in mind that with attack submarines the key here is still stealth, and that means that if you got anything that transmits to an outside receiver, you are cornered. Coupled with the fact that it would be pretty difficult for submarines to communicate with each other underwater anyways, and wit hvarious factors (such as the crews' ability to come out a firing solution quick enough, and the unpredictableness of such missions), a coordinated strike would probably work less well with attack subs.

About the radars, keep in mind that today's radars still heavily depend on both computers and actual human crews. It might be a huge load, but considering that you could still most likely having missiles fly much faster and lower, it would still be easier to distinguish. Buiolding those planes would be another problem even if they are cheap, because it would obviously still take a lot of time to build 50,000 planes. That would also mean that your aviation industry in general will be pretty occupied with the unavailibility of aircraft amnufacturing assemblies. In contrast, you could use these instead to build other aircraft of a much modern nature, which means that instead of pushing the other aircraft into the larger assemblies (which would manufacture larger aircraft such larger fighter jets) to build 50,000 aircraft just to have them all destroyed in a raid, you could use all assembly lines to build much modern aircraft for much useful purposes,

My point is that nobody who has a Doujin misunderstands the concept of logistics. Most of the problems come from people who buy ships like those of TPM; those kind of people don't understand the first thing about militaries, never mind logistics. You can count on them to be horribly unrealistic in every sense.
Why exactly is it that you believe my customers have no grasp of other aspects of military roleplay simply because they buy my ships?
Since I also buy my own ships, I assume you're talking about me as well.....

I'd like to know why too...

Old era planes don't need latest modern tech to work. Old tech can overwhelm new tech through numbers. The Russians won WW II through sheer numbers. Their numbers overwhelmed the Germans / Nazis despite superior German military technology.


Air is my field of expirtese, in the Korean War, smaller numbers of F-86 Sabres defeated the fairly superior and more numericial MiG 15s of the Chinese, Russian and North Korean Air Forces.