NationStates Jolt Archive

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/grunt74/NS1/thund3r.gif
Designed with to kill the latest dreadnaught and super dreadnaught designs, the Thunder Class offers a cheap alterative to building your own multi-billion dollar massive ship. Small fast and maneuvrable, the Thunder pack a wallop for its size. It's 36 hatchet (http://phoenixdynamix.proboards38.com/index.cgi?board=misc&action=display&num=1099927691) cruise missiles with thier 1,000lb armor piercing warheads, are alone enough to sink any known dreadnaught. But thats not the only thing the thunder has too call upon in it's arsenal. There is a single, improved 20 inch coilgun (http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/home.htm)(mine is based on the concept but uses chemical explosives to start the firing process) simmilar to what is mounted on Phoenix Dynamix (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=334378)'s Ultra Class BattleCarrier. (http://phoenixdynamix.proboards38.com/index.cgi?board=ships&action=display&num=1099412260) The coilgun can effectivly cause damage to enemy ships and land installations 34 miles away, doing less accurate area damage at 40 miles away. There are also 5 700mm torpedo tubes equipped for PD-1 Squall torpedos (Shkval based 250mph supercavitating torpedos) These 3 main weapns systems make the Thunder a deadly threat to all the navies of the world. Secondary and defensive armarments include (3) dual 30mm Golakeeper CIWS and (2) 25mm Phalanx CIWS as well as two PD THEL-1 anti-missile laser systems. There are also (2) 105mm cannons for small ship defense. Additonal anti-aircraft armaments include (12) Chapparal IR SAM in rotating turret and (96) SA-101 ELRSLAM in as many Vertical Launch System cells.
Specifications
Displacement: 4,200 tons
Length: 369 feet
Beam: 40 feet
Max Speed: 40 knots
Power Plant: 3 Diesel Electric Generators, 4 submersible turbines, 1 Hydrogen Fuel Cell Backup Sys
Aircraft: Space for 1 helicopter on Helipad (rear storage area can be emptied of ammo/supplies and used as a hangar if req.)
Complement: 166 (16 officers, 150 enlisted)
Weapons
(1) 508mm (20inch) Coil Gun in turret
(1) Double 105mm, 51 caliber Fast-Firing guns in turret
(3) Double 30mm vulcan CIWS turret
(2) 25mm vulcan CIWS Phalanx turrets
(5) 700mm torpedo tubes (equipped w/ Squalll)
(12) Chapparal IR SAM in rotating turret
(36) HLS cells for Hatchet cruise missiles(or ss-n-22/33 or tomahawks/harpoons if u want)
(96) SA-101 ELRSLAM in VLS
Price
$950million

One question, when that large gun on top traverses will not the weight distribution falter? Also in high winds it could possibly be blown over, due to the fact it seems slightly unbalanced... but thats personal opinion...

In order to fire you must be travelingfoward at 30+ knots to counter act recoil, however the coilgun system copensates for a large portion of the recoil.
EDIT: can now soperate at sea state 5

In order to fire you must be travelingfoward at 30+ knots to counter act recoil, however the coilgun system copensates for a large portion of the recoil.
It is not recommended you operate this vessel in higher than operating sea state 4 of 5 (5 being the roughest seas)

Thats not really very practical is it, and what happens if you don't want to fire forward or back? You would by virtue of what you have just said tip the vessel over, despite your design.

just turn the ship instead of the turret :D


nah nvm, ill add outriggers

outrggers added, amount of sams/torps/thel increased

they're for sale you know

O_O...That gives all new meaning to the saying " Mobile Gun Platform " I'll take 1..Jesus...

im sorry we dont sell jesus
if you mean you want one of the thunders, order confirmed ;)

Bump For Publicty!!

im sorry we dont sell jesus
if you mean you want one of the thunders, order confirmed ;)

Damn... well, looks like I'll take my business elsewhere...

lousy no good... non-Jesus sellers...

I, on the other hand, have a fine range of Buddhas, Thors, Hercules, Zeus and Mohammed ;)

ill thake 20 thunders

Nice picture, what did you use for it? Its too crude to be the mighty 3D max...too complex to be one of those bullshit "FREE TRIALS" from the net...tell me!

I, on the other hand, have a fine range of Buddhas, Thors, Hercules, Zeus and Mohammed ;)

Hey hey! You got a link?

Nice picture, what did you use for it? Its too crude to be the mighty 3D max...too complex to be one of those bullshit "FREE TRIALS" from the net...tell me!

It looks like Doga.

it is doga

goldraggons your're not allowed to buy from me, we had a deal remember?

[I'm sorry, but if you think that what is in effect the warhead off a Tomahawk is going to hurt an Iowa class battleship, much less something like a Doujin, you need to do some catching up on the state of armour vs. weapons. Let me put it to you this way, during WWII a Japanese dive bomber loaded with fuel and an armed 500 pound bomb ran into the USS Wisconsin, the aircraft put a light dent into the hull and scorched the paint. Most of NS' dreads and superdreads have double or even triple the armour of the old Iowa class ships. Furthermore, that ship isn't going to to get close enough to a fleet to use its coil gun or supercav torpedo because it'll be sunk well out of range of either weapon by the massive 22"+ ETC naval guns that most dreads and superdreads mount. However, let's assume that it could, it's been proven time and again that ship-mounted kinetic weapons and supercav torpedos are ineffective against most ships, never mind the monstrosities that this ship claims to be able to hunt.

Oh, and as a critique to the ship itself, it needs to be longer lest the massive recoil of the coilgun capsize the ship the first time it fires, and this is assuming that the hull itself isn't crushed by the recoil.]

[I'm sorry, but if you think that what is in effect the warhead off a Tomahawk is going to hurt an Iowa class battleship, much less something like a Doujin,
Read my crap on the hatchet, its not a tomahawk, the whole front of the warhead is armor piercing,its fast as hell. And lucky for you I ignore the 4 kilometer long doujin type godmod ships with 900 etc rail guns or whatever the fuck so :D Im talking about killing the few realisitic super battle ships on NS such as the Norad Class and modifed Iowa.

Oh, and as a critique to the ship itself, it needs to be longer lest the massive recoil of the coilgun capsize the ship the first time it fires, and this is assuming that the hull itself isn't crushed by the recoil.]
coliguns produce much less recoil than standard cannons.

The amount of recoil is irrelevant. Weighing in at only 3000 tons, and with engines pushing it to 40 knots, it simply couldn't cope with that. With how flimsy the construction would have to be, a 6" gun would recoil itself right off the ship with one shot. A 20" would probably sink it, coil or not. Also note that my speedboat with a 12.7mm machine gun will gut it like a christmas turkey.

If you want a halfway decent ship with a gun that size, you're going to need at least a good 30,000 tons to support it (yes, for even 1 20"). Maybe add a few thousand more for a power plant sufficient for that 40 knot speed you listed. This will include the armor protection you should be wanting.

Now, for the weapons.
1) As much as you like your 20" coil gun, it's not an effective antiship weapon. As was proven with the Bismarck, a well-designed battleship simply won't get sunk by gunfire alone. All gunfire can really do is render it incapable of fighting by eliminating key systems. Sinking it requires something else, like a torpedo. The reason is that gunfire damage is too localized and, for the most part, only affects the areas above the waterline.

2) Cruise missiles are nice, but even with your scramjets, you won't do much with a 1000 lb warhead. Why? Well, because the damage is . . . too localized. Battleships are very big, and have numerous internal bulkheads that do an excellent job of containing damage. Even an Iowa is not likely to be seriously affected by a 1000 lb warhead detonating inside the ship, at least unless the warhead manages to get to something critical like the magazine or engine room.

If you want a halfway decent ship with a gun that size, you're going to need at least a good 30,000 tons to support it (yes, for even 1 20"). Maybe add a few thousand more for a power plant sufficient for that 40 knot speed you listed. This will include the armor protection you should be wanting.
There is no significant armor, so the wieght can be kept down, I will consider increasing the wieght by adding additonal "hull and superstructure internal structural support" I submit that my submersible turbine system, trimaran hull design and realitvly light wieght are responsible for the speed.

Now, for the weapons.
1) As much as you like your 20" coil gun, it's not an effective antiship weapon. As was proven with the Bismarck, a well-designed battleship simply won't get sunk by gunfire alone. All gunfire can really do is render it incapable of fighting by eliminating key systems. Sinking it requires something else, like a torpedo. The reason is that gunfire damage is too localized and, for the most part, only affects the areas above the waterline.
meh, thats why I have 5 reloadable tubes that fire 250mph supercavitating torpedos, and Ill have plent of time to fire them after the 20" and the Hatchets disable a good amount of the target's main armaments
2) Cruise missiles are nice, but even with your scramjets, you won't do much with a 1000 lb warhead. Why? Well, because the damage is . . . too localized. Battleships are very big, and have numerous internal bulkheads that do an excellent job of containing damage. Even an Iowa is not likely to be seriously affected by a 1000 lb warhead detonating inside the ship, at least unless the warhead manages to get to something critical like the magazine or engine room.
note to self, aim for the magazine or engine room :D :D

About the torpedo, if you are only going for a Shkval copy with nearly no (or little) ways of maneuvering, targeting, and features a solid rocket motor, then you aren't going to get sink anything with that (unless somehow the battleship/dradnaught's captain was crazy). Take the Shkval for example, it's range is only a mere fraction of those of the Mk.48 and 50. Even if you have supercavitation technology matured (and these torpedoes can be very maneuverable if supercavitation tech is used effectively), you aren't going to fire them unless you are crazy enough to close in to just tens of kms, this thing will be already sank by a combination of missiles and accurate rounds from long-barreled medium-to-high calibre (what I consider to be 8" to 18") guns. There is also a great chance that these torpedoes won't be carrying a warhead as huge as their "conventional" counterparts either, and underwater protection is one of the most important things ship designers have to consider (although they will be much more survivable against some of the "hard kill" anti-torpedo torpedoes nations, including me, deploys).

As for the missile, aiming it at a specific location is pretty hard already, and the priamry to do it is either by a very percise radar or/and an IR seeker. However, considering that many of the ships here today most likely features a low radar and IR signature, you'll have a pretty hard time to aim a Mach 6< missile at a specific location such as the engine (and it will be protected anyways), let alone the magazine of a turret. However, judging how much fuel the missile is going to carry, I doubt that this 3000lb missile could seaskim for more than 600 hundred miles at a speed of more than Mach 6 and carrying a 1000lb warhead, so this missile will most likely fire at medium-high altitudes, and they will definately be great targets for those battleships/dreadnaughts' surface-to-air armaments.

In conclusion, while you could design these expendable ships to do the job of sinking a dreadnaught and it is certainly an interesting approach, you could not just expect to sink one by having a 20" coilgun and short-ranged torpedoes. Many people, including me, rather use special tactics and munitions to deal with dreadnaughts, so that's another (and very feastible and reasonable/non-suicidal) way to do it.

[The fact that you can't be assed to familiarize yourself with the armament of the most famous superdread of them all does not fill me with any great confidence that you know what you're talking about. Furthermore, the Doujin class does indeed have 900mm+ guns, they're ETCs and thus are well within the bounds of modern tech. Your gun on the other hand, a 762mm monstrosity, is another beast entirely. Kenetic guns that big are not in any way shape or form modern or even near-modern future tech and something that big faces the problem of requireing an entire nuclear reactor to power it.

As for your missile, I don't care how fast it goes, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that it could penetrate the meter of armour that most dreads and superdreads have and furthermore there's even less of a chance of it taking down anything more than a bulkhead even if it did penetrate.

In the reserved words of Freethinker, probably the god of ship design in NS, this design is "poop" (and he probably has a much harsher opinion of this design that he does not care to voice.) You need to go back to the drawing board and do it without being convinced that your techwank will overcome all.]

my gun is 508mm

[Excuse me, it's the Doujin class' 30" guns that are 762mm. However, my point still stands, the gun is still too large to be powered by anything except a nuclear reactor and is frankly outside of any practical modern/near-modern tech construction methods. Leaving aside that, it'll be wasted after a single shot because of the atrotious barrel wear that hasn't been solved at this point.]

have you read the literature on the coil gun?

That's a really, big gun. I like really, big guns. Unfortunately, I'm a future tech nation...

There is no significant armor, so the wieght can be kept down, I will consider increasing the wieght by adding additonal "hull and superstructure internal structural support" I submit that my submersible turbine system, trimaran hull design and realitvly light wieght are responsible for the speed.
A 60,000 ton Iowa only has about 10,000 tons of armor.
I actually cut down well over 5000 tons from my estimate to account for the lack of armor on this vessel. Nearly 50% of a battleship's weight is basic structure & machinery. When that's considered, with the main gun, you've got easily 24,000 tons light displacement. Add 6000 tons for stores and you get . . . 30,000 tons, even with no armor. Wow, isn't that amazing!


meh, thats why I have 5 reloadable tubes that fire 250mph supercavitating torpedos, and Ill have plent of time to fire them after the 20" and the Hatchets disable a good amount of the target's main armaments
note to self, aim for the magazine or engine room :D :D
All the defending ship needs is one operational 3" (well, maybe 4.5") gun, and your ship will suffer crippling damage before getting close enough to loose those torpedoes. If they've got missiles or something like an 8" operational, you're screwed.



And as said, you do need a nuclear reactor to give that gun the power it needs.

have you read the literature on the coil gun?

less barrel ware than straight rail guns. However, that does not mean it's eliminated and barrel ware per shot just goes up with each inch added to your gun. It's true on normal guns and it's compounded on kenetic guns because of the delicateness and complexities required to make such a gun possible.]

I think the basic problem, however, is this. You are trying to fit on a tiny platform sufficent weaponry to allow it to engage a dreadnought or superbattleship in a gun battle. Dreadnoughts and battleships are built to survive gun battles with other battleships, so if you attack the closest example I could think of is a featherweight boxer going against a ultra-heavyweight.

It simply would work, even if you could bypass the quite frankly astounding technical difficulties.

It's 36 hatchet (http://phoenixdynamix.proboards38.com/index.cgi?board=misc&action=display&num=1099927691) cruise missiles with thier 1,000lb armor piercing warheads, are alone enough to sink any known dreadnaught.

Question is...will they make it there? Any moder CIWS system can take them out if their surface missiles.

But thats not the only thing the thunder has too call upon in it's arsenal. There is a single, improved 20 inch coilgun (http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/home.htm)(mine is based on the concept but uses chemical explosives to start the firing process) simmilar to what is mounted on Phoenix Dynamix (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=334378)'s Ultra Class BattleCarrier. (http://phoenixdynamix.proboards38.com/index.cgi?board=ships&action=display&num=1099412260) The coilgun can effectivly cause damage to enemy ships and land installations 34 miles away, doing less accurate area damage at 40 miles away.

I suggest looking up railgun... you can get your guns to fire up to 300 miles off. :-P

There are also 5 700mm torpedo tubes equipped for PD-1 Squall torpedos (Shkval based 250mph supercavitating torpedos) These 3 main weapns systems make the Thunder a deadly threat to all the navies of the world. Secondary and defensive armarments include (3) dual 30mm Golakeeper CIWS and (2) 25mm Phalanx CIWS as well as two PD THEL-1 anti-missile laser systems. There are also (2) 105mm cannons for small ship defense. Additonal anti-aircraft armaments include (12) Chapparal IR SAM in rotating turret and (96) SA-101 ELRSLAM in as many Vertical Launch System cells.

For the torpedoes... I suggest using an ASROC based system, or a various tube verticle launch system...makes it much easier, much faster, and you can fire more at once!


OOC: Just some friendly advise.

I like the idea of a "Tank Destroyer" on the high seas, but the armors and defenses of a SD (superdreadnought) are simply too much. Without some sort of radical new design in attack weaponry, they are simply almost impossible to sink without huge numbers of opposition or a comparative opponent in firepower.

Well, for this particular type of missile, gun-based CIWS are simply too ineffective engaging them - think of how a ground-based AAA turret would engage a Mach missile, although some kind of RAM-like missiles, with small size, agility, and speed, could deal with this threat more effectively. This missile also seems to fly at a higher altitude, which is both a bad and good thing, as while the missile will achieve great suprise (and the response time isn't long, either), it can be easily countered by long-range surface-to-air and air-to-air systems (unless you increase the weapon's weight by a lot so that you have enough fuel to seaskim at very low alts and still maintain that long range, or you have ECM on your missile to at least degrade the performance of smaller enemy missiles). I'd rule out ASROC, as unless you make a huge rocket to propel ADACP/Spearfish type torpedoes (which takes much more room, by the way) so that you can propel them to a reasonable range, all that you will be getting is a rocket booster with a lightweight torpedo (which is far from sinking even a cruiser or carrier). Chances are, with the current weapons on this ship (yes, even the 20in), the very possible lack of armor of this ship will most likely allow even destroyers and cruisers to fire a few 8" rounds and Harpoon or Yakhont-type missiles and sink it (heck, you could even try .50cal if you want to) before the coilgun with extended range rounds could do anything, let alone the missiles (unless of course, you have some way of providing off the horizon targeting).

However, I'll agree with Freethinkers and Kaukolastan. Instead of having small ships against SDs, why not try designing a launched weapon system that can deal with these SDs? They'll be much cheaper and less complex to build in large numbers, can be launched with different tactics in different situations (though your ships and subs will still sink if you just decide to fire them without trying anything else), and can be operated by available systems. I already know a few nations (including myself) who has designed effective weapons, at least, that can successfully engage at least the "smaller" SDs that exist among many nations today. But as with this "ship-to-ship concept", you'd still need some creative thinking, as steel poles won't do any serious damage to a SD, and neither will a Daisy Cutter. Not saying that such concept is a complete failure, but the problem, no offense, is that this will easily fail in many situations.

My $0.02

One particularly flashy "solution" I cooked up was a sort of supercavitating underwater "fighter". It uses a jetski type propulsion method to maneuver, and engages disposable supercav pods to perform "attack runs" and release close in torpedos, mines, or the 1cm rail gun.

However, these are often lost en masse, are expensive to produce, and hideously vulnerable to old style "shock" bombs, such as depth charges. However, the shock of the hundred minisub attack, combined with surface action, might break the tide of battle, justifying the atrocious loss of the "fighter subs" and their pilots.

Just a piece of near-future techno-goop to chew on. Try something radical, like a surface effect attack maybe, to neutralize the guns of the ship, without having to sink it.

One particularly flashy "solution" I cooked up was a sort of supercavitating underwater "fighter". It uses a jetski type propulsion method to maneuver, and engages disposable supercav pods to perform "attack runs" and release close in torpedos, mines, or the 1cm rail gun.

However, these are often lost en masse, are expensive to produce, and hideously vulnerable to old style "shock" bombs, such as depth charges. However, the shock of the hundred minisub attack, combined with surface action, might break the tide of battle, justifying the atrocious loss of the "fighter subs" and their pilots.

Just a piece of near-future techno-goop to chew on. Try something radical, like a surface effect attack maybe, to neutralize the guns of the ship, without having to sink it.
Well, these are good ideas, even though this is still a bit futuristic for many nations here, although supercavitating "minisubs" are certainly possible (and very maneuverable if it is done right). However, I do have various underwater munitions to do the job, and underwater weapon systems certainly have possibilities and potentals to be expanded into huge anti-dreadnaught systems.

Dreadnaught killers = other dreadnaughts.

Or submarines and strike aircraft and shit like that.

I thought it was a good design on a purely aesthetic level, but as a future tech nation that employs coilguns I can definitely say that coilguns like that, on a platform like that, in modern tech, is just not going to be congruent with the laws of physics. For what it's worth (not much, but I have nothing else to do.)

Omz222: Even a MetalStorm CIWS system?