NationStates Jolt Archive

Vichy France is looking for a new side-arm for its soldiers. The Beretta 92 simply does not meet our needs, and we do not like 9mm.

We are looking for a gun that fires 7.62x25mm, but we will accept others. It must have a range of at least 100m, effective. It also must not pass One thousand dollars in price.

We also are looking for a Light or medium machine gun. We would prefer the calibre to be 7.62, or somewhere higher than 5.56mm.

Bren Ten (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg70-e.htm) $500 for one Bren Tens
Type: Double Action
Chamber: 10mm auto
Weight unloaded: 1070 g
Length: 222 mm
Barrel length: 127 mm / 5in
Capacity: 11 rounds

XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm) $2,800 for one XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle
Caliber: 5.56 x 45mm NATO
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length: 838 mm, butt extended
Barrel length: 318 mm
Weight: 2.659 kg empty in basic configuration
Rate of fire: ~ 750 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds (STANAG)

Burnsian Armories, Limited refuses to provide weapons to such a bigoted country.

Bren Ten (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg70-e.htm) $500 for one Bren Tens
Type: Double Action
Chamber: 10mm auto
Weight unloaded: 1070 g
Length: 222 mm
Barrel length: 127 mm / 5in
Capacity: 11 rounds

XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm) $2,800 for one XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle
Caliber: 5.56 x 45mm NATO
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length: 838 mm, butt extended
Barrel length: 318 mm
Weight: 2.659 kg empty in basic configuration
Rate of fire: ~ 750 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds (STANAG)

We are not looking for an Assault rifle. If we were, it would have to be better than the current Famas G2. The XM8 is quite possibly the worst gun we have ever reviewed.

As for the 10mm pistol, we aren't interested. Odd caliber.

Burnsian Armories, Limited refuses to provide weapons to such a bigoted country.

Good for The Burnsian Desert. We don't see ourselves as bigoted, at least not toward anyone in specific.

We recently adopted the CZ-G2000 as our military's standard issue pistol. We replaced the CZ-75 with these. We chose another adoption of the 'CZ' family because of it's ability to work in any theater or conditions, simple use, little maintance, and light weight capabilities with larger numbers of ammunition storage with larger rounds, with it's very high durability.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg57-e.htm

Pistol:

HG-3 Combat Pistol (http://img37.photobucket.com/albums/v114/hamptonshire/mrm_detonics_magnaport.jpg)
Length: 8 inches
Barrel length: 5 inches
Weight: Empty- 2.5 lbs, loaded- 3.25 pounds.
Bore diameter: 7.62mm
Maximum effective range: 500 meters
Muzzle velocity: 1,250 feet per second
Magazine capacity: 12 rounds
Unit Cost: $750

Light Machine Gun:

H-4 Light Machine Gun (http://img37.photobucket.com/albums/v114/hamptonshire/bren_side.jpg)
Length: 40"
Barrel length: 20" w/ 1.5" Built in Muzzle Brake (Quick Changeable)
Weight: 7.6 Lbs
Bore diameter: 7.62mm
Maximum effective range: 1200 meters
Muzzle velocity: 2000 feet per second
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds, or drum fed.
Rate of Fire: 750 RPM
Unit Cost: $2,500

Mk 47 P&R Medusa 8 shot Multi-Caliber Revolver
SAVE BANDWITH<SNIPPED>
Name: Medusa mark 47
Designed by: PD rebuild of Phillips and Rogers (USA)
Caliber: .38, 9mm, .357 magnum (25 other rounds)
Action: Double action revolver.
Barrel 5.6 inches
Capacity 8 rounds
The P&R Mark 47 Medusa 8 shot Multi-Caliber Revolver fires 9mm, .38 special, or .357 Magnum ammo w/o modification perfect sidearm for your miltary(load it with .357 ammo and if you run out you can use 9mm "battlefield pickups" to reload or u can use cheap .38 rounds for target practice)
*works with 25 other simillar sized rounds from 9mm down to 5.7mm rounds
This is a perfect weapon for aircrews, spys or special forces because of its compact size since it can take many foreign pistol rounds. EDIT: the Mk47 can fire 7.62x25mm rounds
Price
$700
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PHX Hi-Power Pistol
SAVE BANDWITH<SNIPPED>
Name: Phoenix Hi-Power
Designed by: Phoenix Dynamix (TPM)
Caliber: available in 10mm, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP, and .50 verisons
Action: Semi-automatic
Capacity 14 rounds (10mm) 12 rounds (.44, .45 and .50 (21 with special clip shown in pic(10mm) 19(.44 and .45) 18(.50))
This is a PD remake of the classic Browning Hi-Power pistol. It features a built in, removable flash suppressor, tac light and laser aimpoint, and can accept a full size noise suppressoe (scilencer) The standard clip holds 14 rounds and a 21 shot clip is availble. The powerful rounds avaiable offers more knock down and penetrating power than a 9mm or .40 pistol.
Price
$700 ($750 for .50 version)

TPM, We are adamantly against using Revolvers. The PHX is simply too high caliber for our tastes.

Hamptonshire, the guns dont meet our specs(OOC: They seem to have unrealistic specs, like effective range).

Nycton, we have had bad experiences with 9x19mm. If we were to use it again, it would be re-introducing the Beretta 92 to our soldiers.

Well I hate to do this, but Phoenix Dynamix did buy out FN-Herstal in august 2003,
The FN Five-seveN
http://www.galeon.com/clanyakuzaes/armas/fiveseven.jpg
Name: Five-seveN
Designed by: Fabrique Nationale-Herstal
Caliber: 5.7X28mm
Action: Double Action
Capacity 20 rounds
The FN Five-seveN features small but powerfull 5.7mm rounds, it can pierce a regular bulletproof vest at 100+ meters.The 5-7's weight, size and recoil are considerbly low for the penatrating power offered, the 5-7 is also a very accurate pistol, it was used by The Phoenix Milita for the first 5months of our existance, until we started using our own weapons. [/b]
Price
$620
oh.... if your looking for a SAW or LMG, http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=371292
although 11mm might be a little to high powered for you.

Well I hate to do this, but Phoenix Dynamix did buy out FN-Herstal in august 2003,
The FN Five-seveN
http://www.galeon.com/clanyakuzaes/armas/fiveseven.jpg
Name: Five-seveN
Designed by: Fabrique Nationale-Herstal
Caliber: 5.7X28mm
Action: Double Action
Capacity 20 rounds
The FN Five-seveN features small but powerfull 5.7mm rounds, it can pierce a regular bulletproof vest at 100+ meters.The 5-7's weight, size and recoil are considerbly low for the penatrating power offered, the 5-7 is also a very accurate pistol, it was used by The Phoenix Milita for the first 5months of our existance, until we started using our own weapons. [/b]
Price
$620
oh.... if your looking for a SAW or LMG, http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=371292
although 11mm might be a little to high powered for you.

Our short experience with the 5-7 has simply not pleased us.

The Ar-22 does not fit our tastes. We are looking for something that wasn't converted from an assault rifle. Something around 5.56 or 7.62mm, with a widely used, cheap bullet.

In that case, you'll be interested in the pistols my military and law enforcement use. Those will be posted tomorrow, as I am in the process of writing a few things up.

ooc: Are you just going to keep refusing guns until the thread dies? It's not a hard decision, it's NS, a fictional nation in a fictional world. Just pick one, damn.

My CZ-G2000 use .40SW, not 9mm. It still holds 12-15 rounds.

ooc: Are you just going to keep refusing guns until the thread dies? It's not a hard decision, it's NS, a fictional nation in a fictional world. Just pick one, damn.

My CZ-G2000 use .40SW, not 9mm. It still holds 12-15 rounds.

Still to large for our tastes. We do not need large pistol rounds to...compensate, as some do. We value a good balance of power and range with a pistol. Which is why we suggested the 7.62x25mm round.

OOC: I made this thread to see if anyone could offer me a gun that interested me. I'm not going to pick something I don't want. Don't have to be a prick about it, either.

BLSTR-4

Caliber: 6mm x 32
Fire Selector: Safe, Semi-Auto, Quad-Burst, Full Auto
Rate of Fire: 900 rpm
Effective Range: >250m
Overall Length: 345mm (stock closed) or 546mm (stock open)
Barrel Length: 185mm
Width: 49mm
Height: 173mm
Unloaded wt. (20 rnd. mag): 1.21 kg
Loaded with 15 rounds: 1.35 kg
Loaded with 32 rounds: 1.59 kg

Cost per unit: $950 USD

An odd calibre, admittedly, but with quite desirible ballistic and penitrative properties. To compensate, we are prepared to supply bulk ammo orders at market prices for 9mm.

I found some interesting info for you:

When the cz52 pistol is fired with a 7.62x25mm cartridge having a case length greater than .970 inches, there is a risk to experience case head separation, case neck separation, blown primers and other damage or injury to the pistol, the shooter and any bystanders.

This information is based upon my own experience and research with the CZ52 pistol and also the published data of the NRA during 1981 by William C. Davis. My third source for the statement is from "Starline Brass" makers of brass cases for firearms.

From hands on research of CZ52 mishaps and my own development of hand-loaded 7.62x25mm cartridges my experience tells me a preferred case length size is .968 to .970 inches for the CZ52 pistol. So I did some research.

In 1981 Mr. William C. Davis published the book "Handloading" by the NRA (National Rifle Association). The dimensions of the 7.62x25mm case are given as "Max. Case Length: .975 Trim to Length: .970".

Here is a quote from "Starline Brass Company" concerning the brass case they make for the 7.62x25mm. " 7.62x25 vs 30 Mauser - These cases are very similar, except for the difference in length. The 7.62x25 is shorter than the 30 Mauser, due to higher operating pressures. If the 30 Mauser cases are fired at hotter 7.62x25 loads in the CZ-52, it will tear the neck off some cases. 30 Mauser O.A.L. = .980 to .985 7.62x25 O.A.L. = .959 to .962." end of quote.

Note: The owner of a CZ52 pistol may want to know that the recommended case length for the 7.62x25mm in most reload manuals of today show case sizes well above these limits. You will also discover a case size variance in factory loaded 7.62x25mm ammo from about .978 to .992. It is my experienced opinion that folks are using the .30 Mauser case length for the 7.62x25mm when it is a bit safer to use the 7.62x25mm case length for the 7.62x25mm.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This whole thing about case length size is very important because the 7.62x25mm cartridge headspaces on the shoulder just like any other rimless tapered cartridge design.

When the case is too long in length, the neck of the case can protrude beyond the chamber and into the bore, ( by even a few thousandths) where the neck can be compressed or crimped tighter around the bullet causing an increase in pressure resulting in the mishaps I detailed earlier.

Okay, I have identified a problem. Now what?

I can hand-load my ammunition to make certain any ammunition I use in my CZ52 is within proper and safe specification. Giving very close attention to case length to prevent a mishap. -or-

I might continue to use factory loaded ammunition after inspecting each round for dimensions in my CZ52. I have developed two tests to see if a 7.62x25mm cartridge is within correct dimension for my CZ52 pistols. The decision to conduct these tests is up to the reader and so are the readers results.

As for me and my CZ52 pistol; I'm not using any ammunition in my CZ52 unless that ammunition is compliant to published standards by the NRA and Starline Brass. Right now it seems the only way I can make certain my ammo is dimensionally correct is to hand-load my own. Because I have seen first hand what an oversize case length will do.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Testing the CZ52 Pistol for compliant 7.62x25mm Cartridge Case Length

In my experience of evaluating catastrophic failure of CZ52 pistols and my experience of handloading 7.62x25mm cartridges for the CZ52 pistol I have learned a few things that bear discussion and sharing with the cz52 owners community.

I have been handloading for well over twenty years in some capacity and have always been able to rely on consistent printed standards for one cartridge or another pertaining to case and cartridge dimension. Usually product manuals from different companies give dimensions here or there off by a thousandth or two and this has never given me cause for concern because a plus or minus tolerance factor for specs has been a big part of the mix. That is until I began handloading for the 7.62x25mm.

Different sources seem to have different dimensions for the 7.62x25mm. One source prints that a maximum trim length for the case is .988 while another major source say's the dimension should be .975 for maximum trim length and the trim to length should be .970 inches. Still another source say's the case length should be .990 and the trim length should be .985. One source say's the maximum overall cartridge length should be 1.377 while another say's 1.381 and another say's 1.280. Even reported bore measurements very from .308 to .311. These given dimensions are ambiguous to me and have led me on a course to examine for consistency with the 7.62x25mm and the CZ52 pistol.

There are limited reliable resources for the CZ52, as I mentioned earlier, what information is available seems ambiguous and the rest of the information about the cz52 seems gathered about buying accessories or parts rather than actually shooting the thing for consistency. So I started from scratch.

I know an over length case caused a cz52 to blow with no injuries or damage to the gun further than the barrel. I know from measuring several factory loads that case length can vary by as much as .020 even in the same box of cartridges. I know that when I manually cycle cartridges through my cz52 I get a few cartridges that want to stick in the chamber.



I have developed two tests to examine a CZ52 barrel chamber and ammunition to rule out whether or not the combination of a particular cz52 barrel with a particular 7.62x25mm cartridge is safe or unsafe for use pertaining to dimensions of the chamber and the length of the case of the cartridge being used.

There are three big questions to answer:

The first question is about the overall cartridge length of the 7.62x25mm measured from the rim to the bullet tip.

The second question is about the measured length of the 7.62x25mm case measured from the rim to the case mouth edge.

The third question is about determining whether or not a particular cz52 barrel has a short chamber for the 7.62x25mm cartridge.

Answering these questions for a particular cz52 pistol and the ammunition used in the gun can give the cz52 owner confidence in knowing their particular pistol is within chamber and ammunition standards; thus preventing catastrophic failure. Of course the antithesis to this answer is the owner of a cz52 pistol will be able to tell if a particular cz52 pistol and ammunition combination is unsafe.

Test 1. The Spin Test

The "spin test" is done to identify whether or not there is a problem with the dimensions of a particular cartridge and the dimensions of a particular barrel's chamber. The "spin test" can also reveal any small burrs or dirt in the chamber that can have a negative effect on chambering or cycling during operation of the gun.

I Field Strip the cz52 pistol and remove the barrel from the slide.

Putting all parts aside except for the barrel, I gently place a loaded cartridge into the chamber of the barrel.

While the cartridge is in the chamber I grasp the head or rim of the cartridge with my fingers and attempt to spin the cartridge in the chamber manually.

If the cartridge spins freely without catching anywhere on the end or sides of the chamber, I conclude that particular cartridge is within a dimensional standard for that particular chamber. This is a good thing.

If the cartridge does not spin freely in the chamber but instead stops or I notice significant friction or rubbing of the cartridge in the chamber, I place that cartridge aside. This is not a good thing, because it tells me this particular cartridge is most likely out of dimension with respect to the length of the case and/or the overall length of the entire cartridge as these dimensions compare with the barrel chamber I am testing. Failing this test can also tell me that the particular chamber could be dirty or a small metal burr or imperfection in the chamber could be interfering with proper chambering of a particular cartridge.

After investigating or cleaning the chamber further, I proceed with the "spin test" of each individual cartridge. The cartridges that pass the "spin test" go into the good pile for shooting. The cartridges that fail the "spin test" go into the bad pile.

Now that I have done the spin test, exactly what is it that I have done? I have examined my barrel chamber for any dirt or imperfections that could negatively effect chambering. I have identified those cartridges I want to shoot in this particular barrel because I feel confident the selected cartridges are within a standard dimension of case length and overall cartridge length for this particular barrel. I have also identified a few cartridges I do not want to shoot in this barrel because the cartridges that failed this test are out of dimension with this particular barrel chamber. By separating the good cartridges from the questionable cartridges I have taken a simple step that makes certain I will not risk shooting an oversized cartridge resulting in high pressure and catastrophic failure. I have also selected cartridges of similar dimension that will give me greater consistent accuracy at the range; provided I do my part at the range.

This concludes the "spin test"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Test 2. A more conclusive test of cartridge length for the cz52 pistol in 7.62x25mm



Test two is much more conclusive because it will identify problems of case length, overall cartridge length and/or a short barrel chamber to a particular pistol and the ammunition intended for use..

I am very careful when I do this test because it can be dangerous if not done properly.

I first Field Strip my CZ52 and remove the firing pin, the firing pin interlock and the interlock spring .

I set the firing pin and interlock parts aside because I don't want the firing pin or the interlock parts in the gun for this test.

I put the slide assembly back on the CZ52 frame without the firing pin installed.

Next I put loaded cartridges in the cz52 magazine. I install the magazine and manually operate the slide to cycle each cartridge through the process of feeding, chambering and ejection. When I notice any difficulty with the slide extracting a loaded cartridge from the chamber (it feels like the cartridge is stuck in the chamber), I eject that cartridge and set that cartridge aside because that cartridge in my experience is too long. I continue cycling rounds through in this manner to check out each cartridge. Putting aside those rounds that cause the slide to stick or hesitate during extraction. This concludes my Test #2 for identifying cartridges that are too long for chambering in the pistol I am using.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evaluating the results of Test #2

The loaded cartridge that caused the slide to stick or hesitate as I manually attempted to eject the whole round, hesitated because something caused that particular cartridge to stick in the chamber. I have already ruled out any dirt or chamber burrs in doing test #1.

Cause #1: This has been the most applicable cause in my experience. The neck of the cartridge is too long causing the mouth of the case to crimp into the smaller diameter of the bore. The .335 diameter case neck is not meant to be squeezed into a .309 diameter bore, it is akin to trying to shove a .338 bullet down a .30 diameter barrel. Even a few thousandths over length in the neck can cause this. My evaluation and reported evaluations of case neck lengths seem to run a difference of up to .020 in length dimension. Even amongst cartridges from the same box. This cause can be verified by measuring the case length from the rim to the mouth. My goal here is not to identify ammo manufacturers but instead to reveal this as something that deserves attention.

Cause #2: Is the overall length of the cartridge being too long which can result with the bullet ogive being jammed into the rifling leade of the bore. This can be ruled out by measuring the overall length of the cartridges that failed and comparing this length with the cartridges that passed. In most instances a visual inspection of the bullets will reveal small markings on the bullet jacket where the bullet ogive contacted rifling during chambering.

Cause #3: A third and rare possibility is that the chamber of the barrel being evaluated is "short" or out of dimension with standard chamber dimensions for the 7.62x25mm cartridge. This can be ruled out by comparing the number of cartridges that passed Test #2 with the number of rounds that failed the same test. If the chamber is within spec there will be vastly more cartridges that passed the test versus failed. If I ran test #2 on a chamber using all factory spec rounds and the majority of the rounds failed the test, I would consider purchase of a new barrel or get the chamber I evaluated reamed to proper dimension.

Let me put it like this; the forward part of the cartridge is where the bullet is held in the neck of the case. When a cartridge is over long by even a few thousandths the neck will be driven past the chamber and into the bore during chambering. This is because a rimless necked cartridge like the 7.62x25mm headspaces on the shoulder of the case not the mouth.

When the neck is too long the neck gets driven into the bore causing the neck to crimp to a smaller diameter around the bullet in the neck. This crimping action locks the bullet into the case wall further and since the neck diameter is being squeezed by the bore leade, the entire cartridge is virtually locked in the chamber. Firing a cartridge in this condition causes an increase in pressure until something gives way. Hopefully the bullet will give way but sometimes the bullet does not give way causing the case to break apart or the primer to blow out, in turn what is called a catastrophic failure.

http://makarov.com/graphics/S_CZ52withwalnut.jpg

I found some interesting info for you:

When the cz52 pistol is fired with a 7.62x25mm cartridge having a case length greater than .970 inches, there is a risk to experience case head separation, case neck separation, blown primers and other damage or injury to the pistol, the shooter and any bystanders.

This information is based upon my own experience and research with the CZ52 pistol and also the published data of the NRA during 1981 by William C. Davis. My third source for the statement is from "Starline Brass" makers of brass cases for firearms.

From hands on research of CZ52 mishaps and my own development of hand-loaded 7.62x25mm cartridges my experience tells me a preferred case length size is .968 to .970 inches for the CZ52 pistol. So I did some research.

In 1981 Mr. William C. Davis published the book "Handloading" by the NRA (National Rifle Association). The dimensions of the 7.62x25mm case are given as "Max. Case Length: .975 Trim to Length: .970".

Here is a quote from "Starline Brass Company" concerning the brass case they make for the 7.62x25mm. " 7.62x25 vs 30 Mauser - These cases are very similar, except for the difference in length. The 7.62x25 is shorter than the 30 Mauser, due to higher operating pressures. If the 30 Mauser cases are fired at hotter 7.62x25 loads in the CZ-52, it will tear the neck off some cases. 30 Mauser O.A.L. = .980 to .985 7.62x25 O.A.L. = .959 to .962." end of quote.

Note: The owner of a CZ52 pistol may want to know that the recommended case length for the 7.62x25mm in most reload manuals of today show case sizes well above these limits. You will also discover a case size variance in factory loaded 7.62x25mm ammo from about .978 to .992. It is my experienced opinion that folks are using the .30 Mauser case length for the 7.62x25mm when it is a bit safer to use the 7.62x25mm case length for the 7.62x25mm.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This whole thing about case length size is very important because the 7.62x25mm cartridge headspaces on the shoulder just like any other rimless tapered cartridge design.

When the case is too long in length, the neck of the case can protrude beyond the chamber and into the bore, ( by even a few thousandths) where the neck can be compressed or crimped tighter around the bullet causing an increase in pressure resulting in the mishaps I detailed earlier.

Okay, I have identified a problem. Now what?

I can hand-load my ammunition to make certain any ammunition I use in my CZ52 is within proper and safe specification. Giving very close attention to case length to prevent a mishap. -or-

I might continue to use factory loaded ammunition after inspecting each round for dimensions in my CZ52. I have developed two tests to see if a 7.62x25mm cartridge is within correct dimension for my CZ52 pistols. The decision to conduct these tests is up to the reader and so are the readers results.

As for me and my CZ52 pistol; I'm not using any ammunition in my CZ52 unless that ammunition is compliant to published standards by the NRA and Starline Brass. Right now it seems the only way I can make certain my ammo is dimensionally correct is to hand-load my own. Because I have seen first hand what an oversize case length will do.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Testing the CZ52 Pistol for compliant 7.62x25mm Cartridge Case Length

In my experience of evaluating catastrophic failure of CZ52 pistols and my experience of handloading 7.62x25mm cartridges for the CZ52 pistol I have learned a few things that bear discussion and sharing with the cz52 owners community.

I have been handloading for well over twenty years in some capacity and have always been able to rely on consistent printed standards for one cartridge or another pertaining to case and cartridge dimension. Usually product manuals from different companies give dimensions here or there off by a thousandth or two and this has never given me cause for concern because a plus or minus tolerance factor for specs has been a big part of the mix. That is until I began handloading for the 7.62x25mm.

Different sources seem to have different dimensions for the 7.62x25mm. One source prints that a maximum trim length for the case is .988 while another major source say's the dimension should be .975 for maximum trim length and the trim to length should be .970 inches. Still another source say's the case length should be .990 and the trim length should be .985. One source say's the maximum overall cartridge length should be 1.377 while another say's 1.381 and another say's 1.280. Even reported bore measurements very from .308 to .311. These given dimensions are ambiguous to me and have led me on a course to examine for consistency with the 7.62x25mm and the CZ52 pistol.

There are limited reliable resources for the CZ52, as I mentioned earlier, what information is available seems ambiguous and the rest of the information about the cz52 seems gathered about buying accessories or parts rather than actually shooting the thing for consistency. So I started from scratch.

I know an over length case caused a cz52 to blow with no injuries or damage to the gun further than the barrel. I know from measuring several factory loads that case length can vary by as much as .020 even in the same box of cartridges. I know that when I manually cycle cartridges through my cz52 I get a few cartridges that want to stick in the chamber.



I have developed two tests to examine a CZ52 barrel chamber and ammunition to rule out whether or not the combination of a particular cz52 barrel with a particular 7.62x25mm cartridge is safe or unsafe for use pertaining to dimensions of the chamber and the length of the case of the cartridge being used.

There are three big questions to answer:

The first question is about the overall cartridge length of the 7.62x25mm measured from the rim to the bullet tip.

The second question is about the measured length of the 7.62x25mm case measured from the rim to the case mouth edge.

The third question is about determining whether or not a particular cz52 barrel has a short chamber for the 7.62x25mm cartridge.

Answering these questions for a particular cz52 pistol and the ammunition used in the gun can give the cz52 owner confidence in knowing their particular pistol is within chamber and ammunition standards; thus preventing catastrophic failure. Of course the antithesis to this answer is the owner of a cz52 pistol will be able to tell if a particular cz52 pistol and ammunition combination is unsafe.

Test 1. The Spin Test

The "spin test" is done to identify whether or not there is a problem with the dimensions of a particular cartridge and the dimensions of a particular barrel's chamber. The "spin test" can also reveal any small burrs or dirt in the chamber that can have a negative effect on chambering or cycling during operation of the gun.

I Field Strip the cz52 pistol and remove the barrel from the slide.

Putting all parts aside except for the barrel, I gently place a loaded cartridge into the chamber of the barrel.

While the cartridge is in the chamber I grasp the head or rim of the cartridge with my fingers and attempt to spin the cartridge in the chamber manually.

If the cartridge spins freely without catching anywhere on the end or sides of the chamber, I conclude that particular cartridge is within a dimensional standard for that particular chamber. This is a good thing.

If the cartridge does not spin freely in the chamber but instead stops or I notice significant friction or rubbing of the cartridge in the chamber, I place that cartridge aside. This is not a good thing, because it tells me this particular cartridge is most likely out of dimension with respect to the length of the case and/or the overall length of the entire cartridge as these dimensions compare with the barrel chamber I am testing. Failing this test can also tell me that the particular chamber could be dirty or a small metal burr or imperfection in the chamber could be interfering with proper chambering of a particular cartridge.

After investigating or cleaning the chamber further, I proceed with the "spin test" of each individual cartridge. The cartridges that pass the "spin test" go into the good pile for shooting. The cartridges that fail the "spin test" go into the bad pile.

Now that I have done the spin test, exactly what is it that I have done? I have examined my barrel chamber for any dirt or imperfections that could negatively effect chambering. I have identified those cartridges I want to shoot in this particular barrel because I feel confident the selected cartridges are within a standard dimension of case length and overall cartridge length for this particular barrel. I have also identified a few cartridges I do not want to shoot in this barrel because the cartridges that failed this test are out of dimension with this particular barrel chamber. By separating the good cartridges from the questionable cartridges I have taken a simple step that makes certain I will not risk shooting an oversized cartridge resulting in high pressure and catastrophic failure. I have also selected cartridges of similar dimension that will give me greater consistent accuracy at the range; provided I do my part at the range.

This concludes the "spin test"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Test 2. A more conclusive test of cartridge length for the cz52 pistol in 7.62x25mm



Test two is much more conclusive because it will identify problems of case length, overall cartridge length and/or a short barrel chamber to a particular pistol and the ammunition intended for use..

I am very careful when I do this test because it can be dangerous if not done properly.

I first Field Strip my CZ52 and remove the firing pin, the firing pin interlock and the interlock spring .

I set the firing pin and interlock parts aside because I don't want the firing pin or the interlock parts in the gun for this test.

I put the slide assembly back on the CZ52 frame without the firing pin installed.

Next I put loaded cartridges in the cz52 magazine. I install the magazine and manually operate the slide to cycle each cartridge through the process of feeding, chambering and ejection. When I notice any difficulty with the slide extracting a loaded cartridge from the chamber (it feels like the cartridge is stuck in the chamber), I eject that cartridge and set that cartridge aside because that cartridge in my experience is too long. I continue cycling rounds through in this manner to check out each cartridge. Putting aside those rounds that cause the slide to stick or hesitate during extraction. This concludes my Test #2 for identifying cartridges that are too long for chambering in the pistol I am using.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evaluating the results of Test #2

The loaded cartridge that caused the slide to stick or hesitate as I manually attempted to eject the whole round, hesitated because something caused that particular cartridge to stick in the chamber. I have already ruled out any dirt or chamber burrs in doing test #1.

Cause #1: This has been the most applicable cause in my experience. The neck of the cartridge is too long causing the mouth of the case to crimp into the smaller diameter of the bore. The .335 diameter case neck is not meant to be squeezed into a .309 diameter bore, it is akin to trying to shove a .338 bullet down a .30 diameter barrel. Even a few thousandths over length in the neck can cause this. My evaluation and reported evaluations of case neck lengths seem to run a difference of up to .020 in length dimension. Even amongst cartridges from the same box. This cause can be verified by measuring the case length from the rim to the mouth. My goal here is not to identify ammo manufacturers but instead to reveal this as something that deserves attention.

Cause #2: Is the overall length of the cartridge being too long which can result with the bullet ogive being jammed into the rifling leade of the bore. This can be ruled out by measuring the overall length of the cartridges that failed and comparing this length with the cartridges that passed. In most instances a visual inspection of the bullets will reveal small markings on the bullet jacket where the bullet ogive contacted rifling during chambering.

Cause #3: A third and rare possibility is that the chamber of the barrel being evaluated is "short" or out of dimension with standard chamber dimensions for the 7.62x25mm cartridge. This can be ruled out by comparing the number of cartridges that passed Test #2 with the number of rounds that failed the same test. If the chamber is within spec there will be vastly more cartridges that passed the test versus failed. If I ran test #2 on a chamber using all factory spec rounds and the majority of the rounds failed the test, I would consider purchase of a new barrel or get the chamber I evaluated reamed to proper dimension.

Let me put it like this; the forward part of the cartridge is where the bullet is held in the neck of the case. When a cartridge is over long by even a few thousandths the neck will be driven past the chamber and into the bore during chambering. This is because a rimless necked cartridge like the 7.62x25mm headspaces on the shoulder of the case not the mouth.

When the neck is too long the neck gets driven into the bore causing the neck to crimp to a smaller diameter around the bullet in the neck. This crimping action locks the bullet into the case wall further and since the neck diameter is being squeezed by the bore leade, the entire cartridge is virtually locked in the chamber. Firing a cartridge in this condition causes an increase in pressure until something gives way. Hopefully the bullet will give way but sometimes the bullet does not give way causing the case to break apart or the primer to blow out, in turn what is called a catastrophic failure.

http://makarov.com/graphics/S_CZ52withwalnut.jpg

OOC:...What?

BLSTR-4

Caliber: 6mm x 32
Fire Selector: Safe, Semi-Auto, Quad-Burst, Full Auto
Rate of Fire: 900 rpm
Effective Range: >250m
Overall Length: 345mm (stock closed) or 546mm (stock open)
Barrel Length: 185mm
Width: 49mm
Height: 173mm
Unloaded wt. (20 rnd. mag): 1.21 kg
Loaded with 15 rounds: 1.35 kg
Loaded with 32 rounds: 1.59 kg

Cost per unit: $950 USD

An odd calibre, admittedly, but with quite desirible ballistic and penitrative properties. To compensate, we are prepared to supply bulk ammo orders at market prices for 9mm.

We are interested, for sure...However, the gun seems much more like a carbine than a pistol. Even with the stock closed, its 14 inches long... While the gun is interesting, it simply does not seem to be a good weapon as a service pistol. We are not currently looking to replace anything other than our pistol and Light Machine gun.

Crookfur Arms offers a range of pistols rnaging from what is effectively a Browning High power to the rahter advanced PX-1 caseless pistol.
Anyway our pistol entries are basically 2 varients on the same design:

P2 Semi automatic pistol series
images:
P2A1 (http://www.meatballs.terminator.org.uk/crookfur/images/uspexpertrt.jpg)
P2C1 (http://www.meatballs.terminator.org.uk/crookfur/images/usp40compa1.jpg)
excerpt from our sales litreature:

Round: .357SIG
Weight: 875g (A1), 670g (C1)
Magazine capacity: 16 rounds (A1), 12 rounds (C1)
Length: 224mm (A1), 173mm (C1)
Rate of fire: Semi Automatic

The P2A1 is essentially an HK USP Expert 40 rechambered to accept the new .357SIG round. Offering high quality and accuracy with a powerful yet controllable round the P2 has become the popular choice of Crookfur’s hand gun experts and has been warmly received by both the special and regular forces communities. While most were pleased with the P2A1 the long barrel and large overall size put a number of users off and to combat this, the P2C1 compact was introduced, while not delivering quite the same performance of its larger brother the C1 is still superior hand gun.

Cost:
P2A1: $900
P2C1: $600


While the round is not quite what you are looking for it was selected at the end of a very long aquisition process. To be honest it might seem a bit over powered for your needs but to the Crookfur military it represents the best balance of user confort and raw power (basically it's a necked down .40SW case with a new slug, it is not .357magnum).

For your light machien gun we woudl offer 3 systems, our S2A3LSW , S5A3SAW and the E2A1 compact machine gun. Only the E2 offers a standard round option but the S2 and S5 both use the 6.25mm round which is amoungst the best ever developed for use by rifles and light machine guns
details on all 3 can be foudn here:
http://www.meatballs.terminator.org.uk/crookfur/rifles.html#mg

We await your reply with anticipation.

In either contract area we woudl of coruse be willing to provide a custom solution, ie 7.62x25 in what ever type of frame you preffer or what ever woudl suit, of coruse if we do custom design there would be issues to settle cocnerning production and sales rights etc.

Crookfur Arms offers a range of pistols rnaging from what is effectively a Browning High power to the rahter advanced PX-1 caseless pistol.
Anyway our pistol entries are basically 2 varients on the same design:

P2 Semi automatic pistol series
images:
P2A1 (http://www.meatballs.terminator.org.uk/crookfur/images/uspexpertrt.jpg)
P2C1 (http://www.meatballs.terminator.org.uk/crookfur/images/usp40compa1.jpg)
excerpt from our sales litreature:


While the round is not quite what you are looking for it was selected at the end of a very long aquisition process. To be honest it might seem a bit over powered for your needs but to the Crookfur military it represents the best balance of user confort and raw power (basically it's a necked down .40SW case with a new slug, it is not .357magnum).

For your light machien gun we woudl offer 3 systems, our S2A3LSW , S5A3SAW and the E2A1 compact machine gun. Only the E2 offers a standard round option but the S2 and S5 both use the 6.25mm round which is amoungst the best ever developed for use by rifles and light machine guns
details on all 3 can be foudn here:
http://www.meatballs.terminator.org.uk/crookfur/rifles.html#mg

We await your reply with anticipation.

We are interested in the P2a1. While we do not like the 9mm(9.06mm in this case), the USP has looked to be an interesting side-arm to us, though we never thought of getting a gun in .40 or .45. We would like to order twelve, and 600 rounds of ammunition, for try-outs. We are hopeful, but not quite sure this will meet up to our requirements. We are heavy proponents of longer range weapons.

As for the Machineguns, the one in 7.62x51mm simply did not interest us. We did not really look at the other two, them seeming to be conversions of guns we have tried before, and being in strange calibre at that.

We are thinking of using the MG-3 now.

We fully understand your response and your reasons.

As a matter of courtusy the requested trail package shall be dsipatched imediatly free of charge with our compliments.

We fully understand your response and your reasons.

As a matter of courtusy the requested trail package shall be dsipatched imediatly free of charge with our compliments.

We thank Crookfur, and will try to get back to them as soon as possible as to how the guns were liked.

We are interested, for sure...However, the gun seems much more like a carbine than a pistol. Even with the stock closed, its 14 inches long... While the gun is interesting, it simply does not seem to be a good weapon as a service pistol. We are not currently looking to replace anything other than our pistol and Light Machine gun.

True, it is much larger than most pistols, but the weapon's superrior performance and versatility more than readily compensate for that singular drawback; more power, more acuracy, longer range, larger clip - all in a package not much larger than a pistol.

It may not be a traditional pistol, but it is an unquestionibly superrior sidearm - and you would be remiss to supply your service men and/or women with less.



OOC:
BTW, it's based on H&K's MP7 (http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm).

True, it is much larger than most pistols, but the weapon's superrior performance and versatility more than readily compensate for that singular drawback; more power, more acuracy, longer range, larger clip - all in a package not much larger than a pistol.

It may not be a traditional pistol, but it is an unquestionibly superrior sidearm - and you would be remiss to supply your service men and/or women with less.



OOC:
BTW, it's based on H&K's MP7 (http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm).

The weapon still seems more of a carbine than a pistol to us. We are looking for a pistol as a back-up weapon, not a primary weapon like carbines usually provide for troops with duties that are less than full soldiers duties.

OOC: Oh. I dont really like the mp7 :P

The weapon still seems more of a carbine than a pistol to us. We are looking for a pistol as a back-up weapon, not a primary weapon like carbines usually provide for troops with duties that are less than full soldiers duties.

OOC: Oh. I dont really like the mp7 :P

It is still compact enough to readily fill the pistol's role; it would be short-sighted to let your preconceptions deny your service personel the best possible sidearm when the only drawback is so minor - a bit large and far more capible. It may seem like a carbine, but there is no doubt that it exceeds your needs, and is readily within your means.

OOC:
How can you not like the MP7?! If nothing else, it looks like a fricken blaster or something. :P

We are not interested in this carbine, at this time.