NationStates Jolt Archive

Superpower Defined

I’ve recently run across a number of nations incorrectly referring to themselves as superpowers.

Many months ago, there were a bunch of various threads and calculators that attempted to determine if your nation was, in fact, a superpower.

They considered things like size, RP ability, UN status, age etc. Debates raged about the accuracy of these devices, and in the end nothing was every resolved.

This is a modest attempt at providing a workable definition of superpower for the express purposes of NationStates.

I suppose I should start with how the unique environment of NS differs from the real world.

First – NationStates contains well over 120,000 nations. That, along with the inheritably violent nature of the forums, and the likelihood of going to war(s) often, has created a highly charged geo-political environment.

So, a NS nation of 230 million – roughly the size of the RL United States – would, in all probability, have a larger, better equipped and better trained force than the USA currently does. The clear result of living in a world like NS.

So, in RL the USA is clearly a superpower. But would it be in NS? No. Really it comes down to a question of scale.

But I’m getting ahead of myself. Let’s start with a definition of superpower:

Main Entry: su•per•pow•er
Function: noun
1 : excessive or superior power

2 a : an extremely powerful nation; specifically: one of a very few dominant states in an era when the world is divided politically into these states and their satellites b : an international governing body able to enforce its will upon the most powerful states

Let’s start with point 1: excessive or superior power.

To hold a superior power, your NS nation must be regarded in the top percentile of NS nations in areas related to geo-political affairs i.e. military spending, political influence, population size (relates to production capacity, available labour pool/military service pool), power of economy and the like. It would not include things like health care or education (at least not without significant mapping of the causes and effects of power).

So, that leads to the first characteristic of superpower status: Does your nation regularly rank in the top 1,200 on the UN rankings for topics directly related to geo-political affairs? (1,200 is used as it is roughly 1 per cent of 100,000 NS Nations).

Now, point 2a: an extremely powerful nation; specifically: one of a very few dominant states in an era when the world is divided politically into these states and their satellites.

To be a superpower, your nation must rank among the best of the best. You must be able to express your power and influence, and have nations take a step back to assess their own power and influence.

This point has much to do with your ability to role-play well. Do you have the ability to draw other nations to your cause? Can you launch a thousand ships (reference to the Trojan Wars)? Do other players respect – or fear - your political and diplomatic stances? Does an alliance revolve around you and your nation? Are you a power broker?

If you are the commanding presence – able to forge alliances and have earned the respect and admiration (or fear) from other players – you’re on the right track.

Point 2b: an international governing body able to enforce its will upon the most powerful states.

In RL this refers more to a group like NATO, or the Axis or Allies during the Second World War. In NationStates, it refers to groups like GDODAD, NATO – the now-defunct RGGA etc.

There have been attempts in the NS past, to form collectives of small nations (small-nation alliance) – in these collectives there is a great deal of power – power that can occasionally be considered a superpower. But it is the collective that is the power – individually the member nations may or may not be powers.

I should also note that this isn’t cut and dried. There are various levels of “power” – there are local powers – regional powers – just plain powers – superpowers – and in my opinion, in NS there are uber-powers (those you don’t mess with every).

So there you go. Below is a couple of examples of nations and how they stack up – hope this helps nations succeed.

Nation X
Economy: Excellent
UN Rank on Military Spending: 1000
UN Rank on Population: 500
Role Play Reputation: Flawless.
Organization Membership: Yes – NATO (Governing Council Member)

Nation X should likely be considered a superpower.

Nation Z
Economy: Fragile
UN Rank on Military Spending: 5,000
UN Rank on Population: 38,924
Role Play Reputation: Largely Unknown
Organization Membership: Junior Member of Someallianceoranother

Nation Z would not likely qualify as a superpower.

Nation W
Economy: Powerhouse
UN Rank on Military Spending: 1
UN Rank on Population: 200
Role Play Reputation: Feared and Respected
Organization Membership: GDODAD

Nation W is an uber-power – now run away before he/she sees you.

I have to say this is a very interesting thread. It highlights a very important question.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation

I am a superpower damn it :P

I r Consul of The New Roman Empire
I have great Naval prowess (in my mind anyway ;) )
My RP experience is w0nderful.
MY ECONOMY R l337!
And I guess I have good UN Stats

Now don't ruin my moment xD

Superpowers and uberpowers. Hmmmm.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation

super-hyper-mega-ultra-uber-wowpowers

yupyup!

It's so hard to put a label on a country.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation

It's so hard to put a label on a country.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation

True - but better a incomplete, subjective attempt than having Sept 04 nations thinking they command the seas.

That is a good point. At the end of the day so many still consider themselves a superpower on the basis of real life comparisons which makes it all rather tragic.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation

w00t I r superpower!

Wow, nobody's going to bring down my massive ego?! I'm honored :P

I have no illusions about the size of my navy compared to the size of... say... DG's.

Truth be told though, we're spending a great deal of resources into making up for our lack of manpower, Robotics in particular for us, anyway. And we're also keeping our mind on defensive measures more than anything, until such point that we can venture out of our little chunk of NS and start telling everybody else how to do things :p

I don't consider myself a superpower. As a matter of fact, NOT being a superpower is a bit of an advantage. Less of a bull's-eye on your back can be quite a handy little perk.

In the end influence is the most important. In theory if a 50mil nation with a "fair" economy who was in charge of an alliance with 5 nations like W, would be an Uber power. :p

But thats just an extreme situation.

Oh and TIOR, be quiet, you arent exaclty pathetic, but you arent striking fear into the hearts the 3 billion nations here.

I have no illusions about the size of my navy compared to the size of... say... DG's.

Truth be told though, we're spending a great deal of resources into making up for our lack of manpower, Robotics in particular for us, anyway. And we're also keeping our mind on defensive measures more than anything, until such point that we can venture out of our little chunk of NS and start telling everybody else how to do things :p

I don't consider myself a superpower. As a matter of fact, NOT being a superpower is a bit of an advantage. Less of a bull's-eye on your back can be quite a handy little perk.

but it costs money to run robotics :P but if you have a strong economy you could pull a little more weight than most nations of your size that way. Its a good way to extend your power a few % if you have the money though.

An yeah anonymity means that when the time is right you can make your grab with that much of a shock value. Just as long as people know who you are. There is a balance to be had there as if you just arrive with 1 million mechanised infantry people will just ignore you.

Oh and TIOR, be quiet, you arent exaclty pathetic, but you arent striking fear into the hearts the 3 billion nations here.

I was waiting for somebody to shut me up! :D

(leaves thread)

I'm not sure what I am. Occasionally, against godmodding n00bs, I assume damage just as a fancy way to Ignore them, but only if they are really stupid. AKA, they don't respond to my attack because they don't feel like it *cough*GZ*cough*

I'm pretty well known in the Space Tech community. And I'm a member of the ESUS and the UFP, and considering an alliance with Neo Mekanta. I have over 3 billion citizens, and spend near 50% of my budget on military.

OOC: I remember making a thread like this about a year ago. How quickly it was dismissed because the term 'superpower' is all dependant on personal views.

I think it's a relevant thread. A question that will always come up. Most of the time it needs to be answered but no-one can actually agree on a final viewpoint.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation

I think it's a relevant thread. A question that will always come up. Most of the time it needs to be answered but no-one can actually agree on a final viewpoint.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation


OOC: Exactly. I wasn't saying this wasn't a relevant thread, I'm just saying alot of people will dismiss it. I enjoyed reading it though.

OOC: I remember making a thread like this about a year ago. How quickly it was dismissed because the term 'superpower' is all dependant on personal views.

OOC: I have to agree with (edit) I thought (/edit) AMF was saying here.

However, since you won't be stopped by that anyway, consider this.

Virtually every player who is the least bit senior has a three billion population. (I think I just hit it today ^_^) and this makes relative differences in size small. There are no vast differences in power.

Any man and his dog can have a frightening economy. If you rank, say, top 500 on stuff then maybe you are an economic power if you roleplayed it as well. Personally, I think ambitious nations with a mere 'powerhouse' economies need to seriously rethink they way they answer their issues.

Also, the rep of alliances is largely myth. Nations with top rankings are common. Also, I fought the GDODAD on my own soil and drove them back into the sea.*

* Well, okay. SATO helped a little - and it ended in a peace treaty. But still. *waves a Knootian flag*. They are hardly invincible.

Its nice to think on such stuff though, but yeah there isnt a set definition. Unless its a kind of subjective one. Like " Is known respected and seen as threat to all nations in NS" or something.

Too bad the forum isn't more integrated into NS, would make stuff easier to compare.

OOC: Uh...I don't know if the forum could be more integrated.....

OOC: It could be a lot more integrated.

((OOC: I think the whole superpower idea is pretty relative. If you usually only RP with nations about the same age, which seems mostly the case, you can probably be considered a superpower in those circles even if you don't have a 3 billion population. If you want to consider all of NS, then you really have to be huge to be a superpower, but since there are so many nations, the incidents of a relatively new nation may seem pretty insignificant in the eyes of those enormous guys. I suppose it all has to do with the particular circle of nations that are relevant to you.))

OOC: I have 1.3 billion pop, but in my region I'm the superpower, so that makes sense. Obviously I don't control the world or anything, but for my little part of it, I'm the biggest fish.

OOC: how do u get these stats on military spending?

(due to the fast nature of NS< can somebody please give me a telegram about it?)

A large part of being a superpower is status and respect. If no one recongizes one's name, how could one consider themselves a superpower?

I am a superpower. I have status, respect, power, influence and a number of other things. I don't abuse my powers, so I stay respected.

I'm no superpower, that's for sure. Probably not even a regional or local power, considering that several nations in my region were either at or nearing 2 billion when I joined. I also don't have any clout in terms of name recognition. I'm still really a dinky nation.

A large part of being a superpower is status and respect. If no one recongizes one's name, how could one consider themselves a superpower?

I am a superpower. I have status, respect, power, influence and a number of other things. I don't abuse my powers, so I stay respected.

((OOC: But again, this may all be relative. I have status, influence, and command respect among nations that I RP with and who pay attention to my threads, who are usually around my relative size and age, but I am not sure if anyone knows my name outside of these particular circles. And for you, I am sure you command plenty of respect and influence, but as of a few weeks ago, I had never heard your name before.))

Are we talking IC or OOCly? Because if were talking about people ICly calling themselves superpowers, then theres no need for all of this.
Any nation on the planet can call itself a superpower. A nation which existed for three hours in 1987 in Africa can call itself a superpower. Lithuania can call itself a superpower. Hell, Belgium can call itself a superpower.
Naturally, in the real world this would be ignored, that or nice men in white coats with straight jackets would be distpatched. Anyway, a nation created yesterday can call itself a superpower on NS, as they so often do.
Its basicaly just ego-building, its kinda important for those national leaders with things to compensate for.
If were talking OOCly, please, go on.

Personally I think players are too concerned with arbitrary labels like superpower. Granted it is always pleasant to be known and respected, even feared, but it shouldn't be the sole point of your existance in NS.

In addition, allowance should also be made for the huge scale of NS, and its deliberately ill-defined geography and coninuity. A nation like the US can exercise a global hegemony in RL not only because of its wealth and military power, but because it can influence events just about anywhere on the planet.

In NS we have various tech levels, numerous closed RP groups and isolated regions, and a multitude of ignores and the like. Quite simply, it is beyond the power of any nation to exercise a true world-wide hegemony- if only because not everyone signs up to it and there is no way for a 'superpower' to force themselves on a nation that refuses to accept it (of course a small nation ignoring a popular elder statesman is likely to be ostracised, but then again many NS nations don't even bother to RP regularly on the forums anyway).

A goal which is much more attainable is to become a regional superpower, and by region I include RP groups within these forums as well as a specific NS region. Indeed, take a region like Europe, with its 800 odd nations; there are several nations there with the age, population and RP potential to be judged 'superpowers' in these forums, but the truth of the matter is that they generally prefer to RP in the regional forum, where there is an established group of competent players and thinsg are much more managable. With commitment and immagination a player can make themselves a valued member of such a community, perhaps even a maker and shaker- without ever claiming to be an NS superpower.

I have never claimed to be a major 'player' and its unlikely that I ever will be regarded as such in the future, mainly because I tend to move around a lot, RPing with a lot of different groups and frankly, I prefer it that way- simply because the variety has been refreshing.

I'm not saying that the quest for superpower status is somehow wrong, I'm just concerned about the number of newer players vying for first rank status.
Let's face it, it's a sad fact but the later you joined NS, the less likely you are to ever achieve that level of power- simply because older nations have such a headstart on you. That is why in my view it would be better for the game as a whole and players as individuals if they focused less on accolades and more on high-quality interaction.

OOC: I remember making a thread like this about a year ago. How quickly it was dismissed because the term 'superpower' is all dependant on personal views.

That is certainly one of the threads I recall.

So much of this is also depends on your own nation - for instance, AMF or DG or even Wolfish might seem like a superpower to a Sept 04.

But to us, nations like Melkor or The Evil Overlord (etc) are superpowers (uber-powers).

I remember how ic-ly intimidated I was of Bissons (till he got glassed), when I was a young nation.

It is all very relative, and subjective - yet still fun to consider.

And a note for all: This whole thread is ooc.

But to us, nations like Melkor or The Evil Overlord (etc) are superpowers (uber-powers).


To me, not really. I have THE utmost respect for Melkor OOCly, but ICly I do not fear him. Hell, we've gone toe-to-toe before! But sadly he is of a higher tech level than me, although we RP on basically the same level. Another clash between us would most definatly result in the two of us being crippled beyond belief, so I really don't consider Melkor an 'uber power' when it comes to my nation. If I didn't have this nation that I have spent over a year and a half building, I would definatly fear Melkor.

Superpower status is also determined by your tech level. Powerful space nations have way too much of an edge over modern tech nations, so I believe that the two should be seperated when determining 'who's the most powerful'. For example, I'm sure alot of modern tech nations feel I'm a superpower, but a space nation such as Menelmacar probably doesn't feel that I am.

im a superpower

rawr

OOC: I remember making a thread like this about a year ago. How quickly it was dismissed because the term 'superpower' is all dependant on personal views.

OOC:

I remember that thread too, but I don't think it was dismissed due to personal views. It was dismissed because no one could exactly agree on the criteria.

1) If you go soley by stats, Vrak is the USA. For example, Largest Defence Force per capita had Vrak finish in the top 400 if memory serves me correctly. Mind you, there are several "USA-llike" nations in NS.
2) If you go soley by rp (usually how many nations it has crushed), Vrak is something like Ghana. Then again, we are more peaceful than some.
3) If you go soley by regional influence, then Vrak is close to the USA, or perhaps China - although not as dominating because in NS, Vrak is surrounded by similarily powerful states. Vrak does hold the FKC presidency which kinda obliges the other states to follow its lead. In other words, there are quite a few 3 billion plus nations with the Klatch but it doesn't necessarily mean they all follow Vrak - which is due to how we are
4) If you go soley by world influence, we are more like Canada or perhaps a bit less. We tend to be more isolationist.
5) If you go solely by number of alliances, Vrak is like Ghana. Mind you, I think this is the weakest indicator because many people like to join 101 alliances. Perhaps status could be better indicated by how much influence a nation exerts within a said alliance.

Determining "superpower" status is hard since some people will use whatever criteria they use to puff themselves up. Some peole will claim "superpower" status for their own propaganda.

To be perfectly honest, AMF and Milkivity and the only nations I would recognize as "superpowers" for the sole purpose that both are "everywhere" (i.e. extremely active users around the forums and for a long time to boot). Like any forum, the longer you've been around and the more you post the more likely that people will a) know you and b) respect you on that forum, which in this case represents a world full of nations and thus would make such users "superpowers". Those are the only two nations that I can safely say that a great deal of NS would know who they are (though Rose is getting up there), although NS' sheer size means the scope of this influence is not as large as in other forums (there's simply too many threads and forums to post in that you could become a "regular" in each unlike other forums).

(I should mention that I mean no harm in saying the above)

Having said all that, as others have said it really depends on what context you are referring to. Because the NS world is so large, it is in effect thousands of "mini-worlds" where there are one or a few nations who hold "superpower" status, thus making it next to impossible for a single nation or a handful of nations to become NS-wide superpowers. Someone COULD become a NS-wide superpower, but that would involve racking up about 1,000 posts a day (enough so that you'd have a post in at least a quarter of the threads) and being extremely active in just about every NS region and that would be impossible.

It's an interesting subject nonetheless.

IC wise, I think my armed forces have been in plenty of combat, hell each day is filled with internal security work, patrols, counter-insurgencies, that I have one of the better armed forces around. We have a balance between the veteran regular forces (Parachute, infantry, mechanized) the elite Republican Guard, and the human waves of the Popular Army. My armed forces are a well-balanced, well-rounded, fanatically devoted, well-equipped, well-trained, and very capable force. Thus I consider myself a military power.

Economically, I wouldn't even hint at myself being anything of a "big power" or "super power". We're a sort of USSR style nation, we get by economically, we don't really shine, but our military manages. Well that is how it was in the later Curtis years. Now under Roger, our economy has improved across the board and we rake in large amounts of money.

I consider myself a military power but not an economic or political power. My nation is an international pariah and thus we have no real diplomatic influence outside of our small clique of allies and like-minded nations. But the liberals of the world respect the military might of the Mississippian Federated Commonwealth. If you all recall the FSI slavery crisis, Democratic Colonies, a nation far larger than I am, was convinced not to do anything to FSI just by the mere presence of 300 Mississippian ships and 20 Divisions stationed in FSI (RG was a large part of the force in FSI). The RG's reputation for fanaticism and fighting to the death against overwhelming odds, precedes them.


I think as far as counter-insurgency warfare goes, few nations can claim as much COIN experience as Mississippi and his Commonwealth. We've been in basically 20 years worth of COINs since December 4th 1984 when Curtis was sworn in as Premier. (leftist insurgency in Mississippi is still somewhat ongoing, it's touch and go, we kill them within hours whenever they show their heads, there are fewer than 5,000 leftist guerillas left in the swamps and bayous of Mississippi) there used to be 500,000 leftist guerillas immediately after December 1984, that is why the RG and RGISA formed in the mid-late 80s to crush the guerillas, which they did in a matter of months, less than twenty thousand guerillas escaped the 80s COIN campaigns alive.


Basically, I think my military is superb enough to keep the regime safe from any and all threats. If our regime is to collapse it will have to be a major combination of massive internal problems combined with overwhelming external factors beyond our control. No one thing can topple the Fabus regime. It would require massive economic ruin all at once and millions upon millions of swarms of soldiers hitting against the Commonwealth while probably a few hundred million smashed against Mississippi himself. (The Federal Army is about 30 million strong, and with the fortifications and force multipliers we have, it'd probably take at least a 5-8 to 1 advantage to overcome the defenses, and that is just against regular infantry, not the RG and SRG. Hogsweat learnt in TBD that 1 SRG infantry company was capable of effectively destroying an infantry regiment and armored brigade of his.

Meh, it's all down to opinion... I personally don't feel many nations here are close to what I would concider a "super power" but then again I don't even come close to my definition.

Whats more, alot of nations wank up their numbers to try and be super powers... so the whole thing can get blurred.

Wouldn't the status of being a superpower have more to do with the ability to project force than the sheer size of the military?

Wouldn't the status of being a superpower have more to do with the ability to project force than the sheer size of the military?

You'd think so, but people teleport troops too...

You also have to concider how much influence a nation can bring to bare, the power of their economy, their reputation and so on and so forth.

I would Consider myself Being within the League of Nations, I have Influence I have very powerful Military and i am well known by a Lot of Nations.

League of Nations

Who are they?


Whats more influence means more then just your allies and friends... I can make a suggestion to someone like Euroslavia, who I get on well with, and generally find that he'll follow it...

I'm thinking on a more grand scale... anyone can influence those within their own cirlces and anyone can be a "superpower" around their own people, like Generic Empire said.

As for "powerful military"... well that one is always debatable because it's about how you can project that military and how recognised your military is. I don't recognise someone like Decisive Actions military because of the obcene figures presented. Most people in International Incidents claim a powerful military, regardless of size. The fact you are a large nation helps I would imagine, but everyone our size (in my case 3.5 billion) claims one of the best militaries around.

As for being known, I'll admit, you are known well in the International Incidents forum... but that doesn't equate to power, alot of people know The Island of Rose but I wouldn't concider them powerful. The trick is to have a good reputation and for people to respect/fear you.


Turning this whole thing back onto myself, to be fair, I know I'm not a superpower. Despite the fact that:

Iuthia is a nation which is essentially run by it's military (according to the figures taken from nation states, 51% of my funding goes there), however that military is RPed as being more of a social engineering program and has been concentrated on being a defencive force with force projection often taking a back seat. This means that while Iuthia's military could be concidered to be relatively powerful, it wouldn't match up to a nation like Automagfreek, GMC or Melkor Unchained... however it's enough to protect Iuthia from other stronger militaries due to the advantages one gets during defence.

Meanwhile, Iuthia is also a mildly influential nation due to our contacts with various nations around the world. We have a strong diplomatic presence around the world with over 120 listed nations with embassies in... however while we are active in our advise and criticism, it doesn't mean people actually pay attention to us. So our influence is limited to getting people to agree in part of our opinion.

As for our reputation, we pride ourselve on having a very good reputation for promoting peace... but that said, who's scared of a peacenik? We get some respect from various nations for our diplomatic stance, but again it's limited to nations who would probably agree with us in the first place.

Our economy lets us down, it's good enough for Iuthia but when competing with other nations it's not all consuming. We do have economical ties with nations which could do damage if we removed... but it's limited and would probably damage us too.


Only a few nations around international incidents and nation states could be close to being a super power. In II I would say that Automagfreek comes close, but that power does have it's limitations and as such I don't think it's a "Super Power". Meanwhile in NS I would say that Melkor comes close but again they are limited by others around them. There is no all-consuming power in Nationstates... though some nations come close and some alliances even closer.

Nicely put.

Meh, it's all down to opinion... I personally don't feel many nations here are close to what I would concider a "super power" but then again I don't even come close to my definition.

I've always admired the way you display power.

Whats more, alot of nations wank up their numbers to try and be super powers... so the whole thing can get blurred.

Ah - the RL Soviet model. House of Cards - pull out one piece, and they all fall down. Those nations that operate with 5-16 percent militaries, with unlimited first-class weapons....they just don't get it.

As I've gotten bigger, I've decreased the percentage of my military - to the point where I'm well below 1 percent now.

Yeah, I operate in the same percentage level myself.

The problem with these definitions is that it's all relative.

For example, 90% of nations claiming to "OMG uber 5up3r-nook p0w3r!" are Nations I've never heard of.

Then again, 90% of the Nations on the board probably say "Who the smeg is Roycelandia?", yet in spite of this I have a large, RP-acquired Empire with several Colonies (notably in Africa and New Guinea).

Then again, I've never really had a MAJOR War with anyone- the closest was the quasi-Vietnam conflict in Gabon (which required an enormous amount of RPing and of the best RPs I've been involved in).

Like I said before, It's all relative and it's all down to perception...

Those nations that operate with 5-16 percent militaries, with unlimited first-class weapons....they just don't get it.

I concider anything above 5% to be beyond stupid. By that time you have already gone past the stage where your ecomony sucks and you get to the point were your people are starving and your militaries supplies are running out because no one is making the ammo.

5% is barely acceptable for a small nation (20 million or less) which needs it to stop being invaded by a larger militant nation next door. Like North Korea their economy would be basket case and it would have no force projection abilities.

Once you get to the size of America or China you should be looking at less then 2%, 2% being a high and bare in mind that in order to have so many soldiers you would have to reduce the overall quality of their training to afford training them to any standard. America has a relatively low percentage of much less then 1%, however it has great force projection and it's got some of the best trained basic troops in the world. If not the best.

Whats more, whats the use in having 20 million soldiers if you can't bring those numbers to bare? You won't be able to move even 1% of that quickly and as such you will find that those who have smaller, better trained armies will be able to move just as much but their men are better trained. They will be more likely to have local superiority and on the whole more likely to do the job quickly.

Alot of nations in II forget that military isn't about the biggest army these days, but how well you can project them (move them to where they are needed) and how well they are trained and equipped. We aren't in World War 2 anymore... bigger isn't better.

Actually - interesting documentary I watched on the weekend dealt with the tank v tank battle of WW2.

The Tiger vs the Sherman.

The Tiger tank was a beast - heavily armour - massive gun - virtually unstoppable. One prime speciment had a dozen hits before it was disabled.

The Sherman, on the other hand, had an inferior gun, was lightly armoured and vastly outmatched by the Tiger.

Yet the American's - because of their industrial base - could produce 10 Sherman's to the German's 1 Tiger.

The German's wanted the biggest and best, and in the end that's what lost them the tank war. Had they stuck to the easily assembled Leapord, which used readily available, and easily assembled parts - the Sherman wouldn't have held the day.

Note: The Sherman was build by the auto industry - using engines right out of cars.

So - sometimes numbers are an advantage - BUT you have to have the industrial base (ie economy) to back up the numbers.

It was a unique time - and you're right - I don't think it applies to NS.

One must also consider otherwise superpower 'neutral' nations that wedge themselves in between two or three alliances as the force each alliance is after. Because the ability to manipulate an alliance from the outside is very important, possibly equally so as being a member.

Actually - interesting documentary I watched on the weekend dealt with the tank v tank battle of WW2.

The Tiger vs the Sherman.

The Tiger tank was a beast - heavily armour - massive gun - virtually unstoppable. One prime speciment had a dozen hits before it was disabled.

The Sherman, on the other hand, had an inferior gun, was lightly armoured and vastly outmatched by the Tiger.

Yet the American's - because of their industrial base - could produce 10 Sherman's to the German's 1 Tiger.

The German's wanted the biggest and best, and in the end that's what lost them the tank war. Had they stuck to the easily assembled Leapord, which used readily available, and easily assembled parts - the Sherman wouldn't have held the day.

Note: The Sherman was build by the auto industry - using engines right out of cars.

So - sometimes numbers are an advantage - BUT you have to have the industrial base (ie economy) to back up the numbers.

It was a unique time - and you're right - I don't think it applies to NS.


Also important to remember that the Sherman was not designed for tank-tank battles, but for infantry assault support actions. The US maintained a force of "tank destroyers". These light, fast and stealthy vehicles drove faster than the gun on any German tank could track. They also had a really high velocity gun.

Others should judge a nations potential status of superpowers. One must also consider whether a nation is a regional superpower, or a global (what you refer to as an ueber power).

So, you decide on Andaluciae:
Resident of The Lake Erie Tropical Islands
Member of Bulger 15 accord (LETI organization)
Frightening Economy
Population of 3.19 Billion
In existence since March (or is it April) of 2003
Military Victories: We have seized the Nation of Fijar from it's dictatorial regime early on, since then we haven't committed combat troops, but we have deployed support and transport forces to aid Edenstein and Manarth in their victory in the Counterpoint War, and took a major part in the peace conference following. We have aided Edenstein in the most recent canal war, and are temporarily holding the eastern end of the canals, while building our own canal set through illegally seized Featherstone's America land. (All of this in LETI)
Current colonies:
Halbar
Halban
Occupied Aldovar
Fijar
Current Allies:
pax Germania
Soviet Cheese
End of Darkness

I don't think it applies to NS.

Thats a different arguement entirely to be honest, though it brings up an interesting point. Of course a military made up of only a 1000 men with a million dollars each in training and equipment is pretty silly so you want to make sure your military is reasonably balanced. My point was that 2% of your population or more isn't balanced and will probably really mess you up.

As for more low quality tanks over less high quality... again, it's a balance which you need to determine. In World War 2 the rate of production became important because the war went on for so long and everyone was building more as they lost them... however in most modern warfare we don't have long wars, but short quick wars over long distances.

That said, in NS we have been known to run longer wars where attrition may become a serious concern... so it's a matter of balance.

Eeb... I've thrown this thing off the rails for a while. Better get back on topic.

Err...

"I R TEH SUPER! RAWR!"

Superpower? I'm not sure there is any 'formula' that can be used to determine who is a super power or not.

Ilek-Vaad has never claimed to, or aspired to be a 'superpower' , but we have been called a superpower by several other nations. Though I don't know what criteria they used.

There is one thing that pisses me off though: when 'older' nations automatically think that anyone 'younger' than them is weak and not deserving of a title 'power' or 'superpower'.

I mean shit, there are some nations out there that are smaller than my own that even I would not like to fight...

There is one thing that pisses me off though: when 'older' nations automatically think that anyone 'younger' than them is weak and not deserving of a title 'power' or 'superpower'.

I mean shit, there are some nations out there that are smaller than my own that even I would not like to fight...

I try to avoid that one, but as I'm sure you know there are some nations which are new and think they are it. I don't always judge on size, I know nations half my size which are geniuses with their military... but I do judge on their background.

If they are just saying they are great, but can't back it up with RP history of their conquests and proof that they can use their smaller military to better effect then pfff... whatever.

Call it arrogance, but alot of us worked to get where we are.

Call it arrogance, but alot of us worked to get where we are.

Word.

There is one thing that pisses me off though: when 'older' nations automatically think that anyone 'younger' than them is weak and not deserving of a title 'power' or 'superpower'.

I mean shit, there are some nations out there that are smaller than my own that even I would not like to fight...

The topic started did just that to me recently. I didn't fit his definition I guess. :headbang:

I try to avoid that one, but as I'm sure you know there are some nations which are new and think they are it. I don't always judge on size, I know nations half my size which are geniuses with their military... but I do judge on their background.

If they are just saying they are great, but can't back it up with RP history of their conquests and proof that they can use their smaller military to better effect then pfff... whatever.

Call it arrogance, but alot of us worked to get where we are.

I know several older nations that literally have thousands of posts that deserve , in my opinion, no respect at all.

The age of a nation is inconsequential in my eyes. Older nations don't deserve respect because they have been around and made lots of posts. I always look at quality of posts and actaul ability to RP a narrative and stick to it IC. In that respect there are some very old 'Superpowers' that are absolutely lacking, and that I won't even RP with.

But then again I am very picky.

The topic started did just that to me recently. I didn't fit his definition I guess. :headbang:


Well, with only 86 posts and 7 months under your belt, you probably won't fit anybody's definition. I'd suggest doing alot of good RP's to get your name out there. It takes time and isn't as easy as one might think.

As for "powerful military"... well that one is always debatable because it's about how you can project that military and how recognised your military is. I don't recognise someone like Decisive Actions military because of the obcene figures presented. Most people in International Incidents claim a powerful military, regardless of size. The fact you are a large nation helps I would imagine, but everyone our size (in my case 3.5 billion) claims one of the best militaries around.


Personally, I don't think it's obscene. I have about 800 million people in Mississippi (whatever the front page says) and then about 300 million people spread throughout my commonwealth (if you had to state it as a nation, use one of my puppets to symbolize the commonwealth, but i'd rather not get into puppetting) so I have about 1.1 billion people at my disposal. So we toss about 5% of them into the armed forces, then we have private citizen proxy armies, the most numerous being the WKMCK (20 million) then there is the MLA (3 million, but many are foreigners) and the VG (800,000 with many foreigners)

Anyway, the army is more than size, I've never deployed more than 500,000 or so soldiers at the same time. Except for some really brutal COIN campaigns.... But that isn't the point, my army is about finese and mastering the art of warfare.

But oh well, I don't care for titles, except a few:

1) Whitest Nation
2) Most Controversial Nation
3) King of the COIN Campaign (nobody takes this one from me!)

I know several older nations that literally have thousands of posts that deserve , in my opinion, no respect at all.

Yeah, but the point of looking at their background is that you can see how they are like. I know alot of nations which have nations older and bigger then mine with at least a thousand more posts then me... but I would never concider them to be super-powers and I would generally keep my distance if only because I don't want to deal with them.

Russian Forces, despite his RP history, came close a few times because of his followers... he may not have had the best RP around but the soviet bloc was pretty powerful at times. I say "came close" because like everyone else they had their limitations. Like the fact that alot of people ignore them.

The age of a nation is inconsequential in my eyes. Older nations don't deserve respect because they have been around and made lots of posts.

But then again I am very picky.

So am I... I don't see age and post count as being too important, I know nations like Rave Shentavo who are around my size and they have like 10'000 posts. But her nation has no real power over everyone because they RP characters only.

This is why part of it comes down to what a person has done and their history. Some emerging nations have shown alot of potential and willing... these are the up-coming powers and post-count and age isn't important. It's just part of the quick estimatation.

Reputation in NS counts for alot.

2) Most Controversial Nation


*raises an eyebrow*

I wouldn't say 'most controversial'.

Well, with only 86 posts and 7 months under your belt, you probably won't fit anybody's definition. I'd suggest doing alot of good RP's to get your name out there. It takes time and isn't as easy as one might think.

I am doing just that :)

Good points. Players that do a lot of charecter RP's tend to be overlooked. I try to mix RP's up. For instance I won't open relations with a new nation that won't RP it. Nothing makes me sadder when a nation posts a 'Open an Embassy in my Nation' thread and then simply open an embassy for every lunkhead that posts without ever finding out who, what or why that nation wants an embassy.

I guess that's why I only have , what 20 foreign Embassies, and most of those are former allies :P no one wants to put any work into diplomacy, yet there is no shortage of players that will jump into a war to earn 'respect'.

Knuckleknobs.

So we toss about 5% of them into the armed forces, then we have private citizen proxy armies, the most numerous being the WKMCK (20 million) then there is the MLA (3 million, but many are foreigners) and the VG (800,000 with many foreigners)

As I said... obcene. You claim 5% of your able workforce are in the military, a figure which has only been copied in modern times by the economically bankrupt North Korea.

Then on top of that your nations economy is good enough for you to offer $200'000 for white men being oppressed in other nations to come to your nation while noting how perfect your society is.

You then, take more of your workforce and have them join private armies. Which in order to be any good they have to be taken from their jobs which pay for your military producing profits for the companies which pay taxes so you can pay and train 5% of your popuation who are in the military. The figures for how many are in these private organisations is obcene in itself, given that these organisations also have to pay for these people while making a profit to become a bigger organisation.

Now we lob on top that your actual population is only 763 million and anything more is combining puppets to get a large nation (I can do this and have a nation with a population of 10 billion).

So yeah, I find it obcene. Were it uses against me it would result in a ignore of the situation.

Hear hear @ what Iuthia said. NS is freeform RP, anyone can claim what they want. However I'll be damned to recognise folks as 'superpower' or 'superior' just because they exaggerate more.

Let me get to the fundamentals of this:
The biggest power in NS is, by definition, the player with the wankiest claims which are still accepted by other players for some reason.

Hence, in NS, power = wank. An accepted superpower is just a player whose wanky claims of being superior to his/her peers happen to be accepted. (Honorary C'tan wank is the NSWiki term)

I agree. In times of invasion or active all out war a 5% military may be justified, but to actually have a standing military that size would be so economically draining in money and manpower alone that it would be unsustainable without serious damage to the economy and civilian population.

I've built my military without even watching the percentages, building it along as my nation grew bigger and as it was needed and my current calculations are that I have less than 1% of my population in my standing army, and even that is a very large list of units and equipment and presents a logistical challenge. Even a 1%-2% shift would produce a logistical nightmare, that frankly, I don't want to even try and grapple with.

I just assumed that 20% of the cost of an item was needed for maintenance and repair. I found that .5% population ended up in my armed forces. And that was at $1mil per standard troop. Though new developements (like better training and equipement) are likely to triple that. But Im not going to need to dismantle my army. I have a far better way of taking it apart...

Hear hear @ what Iuthia said. NS is freeform RP, anyone can claim what they want. However I'll be damned to recognise folks as 'superpower' or 'superior' just because they exaggerate more.

Let me get to the fundamentals of this:
The biggest power in NS is, by definition, the player with the wankiest claims which are still accepted by other players for some reason.

Hence, in NS, power = wank. An accepted superpower is just a player whose wanky claims of being superior to his/her peers happen to be accepted. (Honorary C'tan wank is the NSWiki term)

I must also Agree, My Standing Military is only 0.5%, This can be Expanded to 1% If ever needed, and then expanded more if invaded by Using the Home Guard, but Foreign Operations never go beyond 1%.

I'm glad this thread has become pretty popular. It's definitely a topic I thought needed discussion.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation

Someone posted earlier in this thread that there was no hope for new players coming into the game to ever become Superpowers.

In my opinion (and experience) that's incorrect.

While there are always likely to be larger players - you can certainly make a name for yourself, and overtime, you'll move up in the size ranks - as players are always leaving, dying, or facing the deet button.

Certainly the pace of old nations dying isn't as quick as the new-nation turnover - but it does happen.

When I started out on NS - I thought much the same thing.

In my opinion (and experience) that's incorrect.

Like I said, I've seen some rising powers in my time. It's not your population that matters, but your actions, conviction and style. Some of the new people I've seen have done some amazing things...

Northwest Liang is one of them, he's not too big but he managed to get his place on Mars, which was contested by Allanea and he's earned himself the respect of many a good RPer.

I have to say I remember nations like Phalanix being only little when I was around a year ago. Now they're giants and have at least a modicum of power.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation

Like I said, I've seen some rising powers in my time. It's not your population that matters, but your actions, conviction and style. Some of the new people I've seen have done some amazing things...

I totally agree with that. Omz222 is another example - he was founded sometime after me, and yet has come a tremendous distance as an RPer and a respected player...he's certainly much more of a superpower than I am.

The way I see it, a NS "superpower" is a forum regular who's so well known that at least the casual users would know who they are and hold the respect of many of those users, just like in any other forum. A very loose definition, sure, but it's really the only logical way of assessing the question.

Having said that, it's still impossible to dominate 70,000 nations. Maybe after a nation hits 100 billion, but by then there will be seven million nations and still too many to dominate.

I see many different classifications of a superpower, namely a political superpower and a military superpower. I can't quite define either of them as a specific nation, because I don't believe there is a nation that perfectly fits either title, but in my books, Iuthia is a political superpower, at least in my opinion. Within the forum of International Incidents, he's all over the place, posting his political points of view, and what his nation thinks of specific things happening in the NS world. I think that his nation is just one of those nations that everyone hopes will post in their thread, because you always want to know exactly what he's thinking, and what he thinks of you. His answers are beyond respectable, and I don't believe I've ever seen him come up to someone and tell them "You suck." He always has a constructive way in informing everyone of his opinion. Hopefully, one day, I can become his successor, just as a student eventually becomes better than the teacher :p

A military superpower, however, I cannot say a single nation who has the military power/influence to dominate majority of nations. Sure, AMF and Melkor are probably the two most scariest nations in NS currently, but I cannot say that both of them perfectly match the title of military superpower. Personally, I'm not scared of AMF because I know we have good relations, and I don't have to worry about war with him, but I fear for other nations who would dare challenge him.

It's such a broad topic, and I could go on forever really...

No nation scares me a lot. Either they are a warmonger and asking for an ignore, or they need a good reason to attack me, which I am very careful not to give.

Though a superpower would be someone you would theoretically quake at the thought of fighting. Almost no matter who you are.

That said some nations would take a lot less to attack me, and these worry me slightly. Im not naming them, but one or two may have posted on this thread, and their somewhat psychopathic IC nature makes them a little frightening. though less than when I was a 50mil nation with no allies and a "strong" economy. Id like to think that any single nation would think twice before attacking me, as they might win, but it wouldnt be worth the losses theyd suffer to go to war for no particular reason....

Sometimes I think I'm a bit gun-ho but then again that is my nation's whole philosophy; Profit through Expansion.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation

I just figured out the perfect "Superpower" test.

Create a thread call "Battle of the Superpowers - Open RP" - no further explaination, and see who show's up to battle other "powers".

It would be interesting, that is, if it didn't have a real effect on our nation.

Bit pointless though. Some natiosn are so cool they dont need to prove it. Those are the real superpowers.

I just figured out the perfect "Superpower" test.

Create a thread call "Battle of the Superpowers - Open RP" - no further explaination, and see who show's up to battle other "powers".

I like that idea. I fully support it.

There is one thing that pisses me off though: when 'older' nations automatically think that anyone 'younger' than them is weak and not deserving of a title 'power' or 'superpower'.

I mean shit, there are some nations out there that are smaller than my own that even I would not like to fight...I agree with you there. I have only been playing NS since late March, but I think I could at least hold my own against some "older" nations -- if not outright beat them in a war. Conversely, someone like Generic Empire or Praetonia I may be "older" than and may be large enough to beat them, but I would rather not take my chances.

I think RP ability rather than sheer size is more important when it comes to figuring out whether one country has a chance in a conflict against another country. I can think of two wars I fought against "older" "more powerful" countries where I wiped the floor with them as far as RP was concerned.

Someone just reffered to one of my ships as 'mythical', so I'm going to go ahead and claim superpower status as my ego damands :p

I think a full on 'superpower' war would digress into alliances getting involved and 'superpowers' working together so no real measure could be made of any particular nations ability.

Bureaucrat of the Drum God Empire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Member of GDODAD, Allied to Metus
Member of the Right Wing Collective
A January 2003 Nation

Oh, come on. That 'Arena' idea is the most silly concept ever.

But I guess it fits the 'Clan War' approach that sees this game as some sort of geopolitical on-line first person shooter.
¨
*sigh*

*trods off back to NS*

That said some nations would take a lot less to attack me, and these worry me slightly. Im not naming them, but one or two may have posted on this thread, and their somewhat psychopathic IC nature makes them a little frightening.

Hm. I wonder who that could be...

What about me?

But I guess it fits the 'Clan War' approach that sees this game as some sort of geopolitical on-line first person shooter.

I never thought about it like that, but that makes alot of sense. Excellent analogy.

What about me?Hey, *I'm* certainly no superpower.

But I guess it fits the 'Clan War' approach that sees this game as some sort of geopolitical on-line first person shooter.

I never thought about it like that, but that makes alot of sense. Excellent analogy.

Thanks. Though I must emphasise that I did not really meant it as a compliment to those playing that way. Still, it is the way I look at II vs NS.

Thanks. Though I must emphasise that I did not really meant it as a compliment to those playing that way. Still, it is the way I look at II vs NS.

Of course it wasn't supposed to be flattering, but when you look at how alot of things go on in II (NS even on occasion) it's pretty true.

*nods in agreement*

Though it tends to be different in NS.

It is annoying. Like the newbie threads.... they they have rounds and draws. Which sort of defeats the objective of this. Its not about the result, or the draw, its about the battle, about the story, the feeling of history being played out for your own nation.


Id use the head and brick wall smiley, but frankly Ive never seen anyone but n00bs use it...

It is annoying. Like the newbie threads.... they they have rounds and draws. Which sort of defeats the objective of this. Its not about the result, or the draw, its about the battle, about the story, the feeling of history being played out for your own nation.


Id use the head and brick wall smiley, but frankly Ive never seen anyone but n00bs use it...

Yes! Yes! Someone who understands. :)

lol, Ive been watching from the sidelines though.

I mean, I watched for ages, paying attention to the details. I like the idea of winning, not being butchered etc. having an untouchable army would be nice, but if it gets a hammering, provided I dont lose my nation, I can learn and have fun RPing the recovery and the lessons learnt. Having that sort of colour is more important than winning.

That said I wouldnt go to war I didnt fancy my chances in. But thats an IC thing. Kirsty Cox isnt about to sacrifice her people for a lost cause.

Oh and just to clear up on that, Im male, Kirsty is just the president, who is inspired by one of my friends, the natural leader risk taker and strong independant one as my president. The diplomatic one as foreign affairs. The quiet but secretly hard one as defense etc... Though I rarely play them at the moment.

That is normal. I have had female Prime Ministers ( Lousewies van der Laan (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Lousewies_van_der_Laan) and Galadriël (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Galadri%C3%ABl_T%C3%A1ral%C3%B3m_nos_C%C3%ADrdan) ) and I am a male player too. Just part of the RPing.



[/irrelevant sidenote]

Intresting but what about nations like me per say space nations ....

Hmm. The problem is, with future tech, respect and influence are even more important, as there are technically no true limits to what we can make.

Future tech are generally considered within a separate group almost, there arent any super powers however as mnay nations havent even contacted eachother yet!

Superpower status is irrelevent, it is a name/title, nothing more really. You could get X, Y & Z nation to fight it out, but like someone stated alliances would simply get involved.

RPing ability and all around detail on your nation (military, economy, characters etc) is what really matters as someone said before.

If, you feel the need to label 'superpowers' it should be on those terms, i.e. the work those nations have done in order to construct & RP their nation, as well as the amount of respect they are generally afforded on the forums.

But you know thats just my view... :)

well thats a delmia becuse i rp both Mod and Space tech (mod tech rps i usaly dont to as much as space tech)

well thats a delmia becuse i rp both Mod and Space tech (mod tech rps i usaly dont to as much as space tech)

Er... ok I'll be blunt and simple. You aren't really known in modern tech affairs and as such you are a long way from being a "Superpower", modern tech nations won't really recognise you as such because they think you are a future tech nation and they deal with much larger, influencial nations on a daily basis.

As for Space Tech, well I would concider that your nation has some sway with a few nation... but its very limited and you can't force your will on other nations which basically rules you out for "Superpower" status.

Superpower status is irrelevent, it is a name/title, nothing more really. You could get X, Y & Z nation to fight it out, but like someone stated alliances would simply get involved.

RPing ability and all around detail on your nation (military, economy, characters etc) is what really matters as someone said before.

If, you feel the need to label 'superpowers' it should be on those terms, i.e. the work those nations have done in order to construct & RP their nation, as well as the amount of respect they are generally afforded on the forums.

But you know thats just my view... :)
Hear hear! You took the words right out of my mouth.

Hi all!

This entire discussion inspired me to write This thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=369284)

on power in NS. Check it out!

Hm. I wonder who that could be...


Who?

Interesting how you boys get so stirred up over all this sort of thing every now and then. Gets kind of amusing, really to read. *grins*

Ok, unasked for, but here's my take - albeit perhaps a bit belatedly.

When making new connections with other nations my first reaction is not to go rushing out to check stats and pop and all the rest. Each new contact is a new opportunity for RP - which for me, is kinda the point here. You know - that 'having fun' bit? That being the case, I don't care if it is a brand new not-even-hours-old nation or not. Until they prove otherwise, they are worthy of respect, as a sovereign nation. I mean really, for a nation like myself who prides itself on diplomacy and the like, how would it look if I just turned up my nose at anyone not making the 2-3 bil pop mark, hmmm? That's certainly no way for a nation to act, not if it hopes to have some measure of credibility. It doesn't matter if they're big now. You can never discount folks out of hand, because you never know how they're going to turn out, or what great RP opportunities you might have with them.

Now granted, in some cases, it is important to get a bit of background and info, and in situations with potential conflict, the 'power' thing does come into play. For example: If I were dealing with a 'dangerous' sort of nation for some reason ... oh, say like way, way back before I'd even hit a half bil and was cutting deals with the Devil Himself, Melkor Unchained, and my RP'ed military was far below what he had, and it was a first contact situation ... yer damn right I'd be careful.

Contrarywise, a brand new nation who came out of the blue and started tossing nukes at me for the sole reason that in tg's I wouldn't give (yes, you read that right) them a big arsenal to use, got flatly ignored. And would be again, should that sort of situation repeat.


I dunno ... am rambling more than a little, but I guess the gist of what I'm saying is, unless you come into conflict with a nation, be it militarily, economically, or any other number of things (spywork, undercutting somone on an arms deal, etc, etc, etc), or find yourselves on opposite sides of the fence yet needing to deal with each other ... what difference does it make how much RAWR you have? We were all little guys at one point. The fact that some of us have stuck it out long enough to get big could be either a testament to our tenacity, or nothing more than an indication of our addiction - it's all in how you look at it. Nevermind the whole 'had the random chance of finding the site before other folks did' factor.

Me personally, I respect folks who can 'play well with others' at whatever comfort level they play on - yeah, you heard me - NS, or II, or General, or within those fantasy, or modern, or future, or ludicrous, doesn't matter. There's more than enough niches for everyone here. While good grammar and writing styles help, I'm not so elitist as to dismiss out of hand folks that make a good effort while still having problems (though I am enough of a snob to dismiss the 'leet' crap ic and really don't care much for the simple one-sentance bits that don't give you anything to work with - my bad). I respect folks that have fun with their nation, and make it into what they want while not being in-your-face-shove-it-down-your-throat bastards about it. You know - creating and crafting a nation, fleshing it out, and having fun with it. I like to see the sorts of things folks come up with - what ideas people dream up and put down in writing, or rendering, or sketching. I respect folks who can, regardless of good, evil, or beliefs or race or what have you, show some diplomacy and skill in debate, negotiations, sneakiness and the like.

THOSE sorts of things are what catch my eye and pique my interest. 'Power' may or may not come into it, but then, like I said, I don't RP simply for power, nor do I choose RP partners simply for what I can get out of it that way - despite what a choice few of you have insinuated, thanks. I've seen the 'big guys' be utter gits about things, and I've seen brand new folks show an amazing grasp of great RP. Size, my dears, is not everything - pick yer stat or feature, it holds. I'm in it for the story, for the fun. And when it stops offering either one of those, I'm done.

Kinda like I'm done rambling here. Ciao!

Heil Nathicana! Heil common sense! \*_*

Why does this even matter? Ok, you're a superpower. RAWR. Well done. Bye.

Gah... you guys ruined our pissing contest.


Quick note though: It wasn't really about who we role-play with, it was about who we concider as powerful and so far the general opinion was that no one nation is powerful enough to be concidered a "Superpower".

Gah... you guys ruined our pissing contest.

Was there even a contest? Hah. I am obviously superior in superpowerness...

*long rambling post pretending to be about superpowers in general, but mainly dealing with why own nation would fall under said definition (as an example, of course)*

*or rambling about why my nation isnt a superpower but Im happy with it now. Just to let all you "I think im really big" types know*

What if I say the International Fleet, a 14 member nation trade and space exploration bloc is a Superpower.

Can this be qualifyied here? (:
Or do you define Unions, Regions and trade/defense blocs diferently?

What if I say the International Fleet, a 14 member nation trade and space exploration bloc is a Superpower.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA. No.

There are a lot less in the way of space nations. But there are rarely superpowers due to the fractured nature of interaction in space.

The International Fleet currently only roleplay circa de 2030 - not really uber-future space tech like some ripoff of the federation of startrek or something else like that and our annual assets are near 18 trillion and we have near 70 trillion in reserves & investments. We are currently debating how to explore other systems.

I think a full on 'superpower' war would digress into alliances getting involved and 'superpowers' working together so no real measure could be made of any particular nations ability.

Maybe there could be a rule stating that no (new) alliances could be formed?

Maybe there could be a rule stating that no (new) alliances could be formed?

My point in making the suggestion for a superpower war wasn't to actually start a conflict - the thought was that if someone actually signed up, they must surely be a superpower - because they would anticipate having to face other "superpowers" in battle.

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OOC: To basically repeat what I said the last time it came up, I judge "power" status by a simple set of criteria: who knows you, who respects you, and how much can you accomplish if you put your mind to it?

There are a lot of II folk I don't know and wouldn't care about if I did. RAWR military sizes earn a yawn. But among their own circles, they are superpowers because they're RAWR huge and can throw their weight around. Bully.

There are a lot of NS folk I know and still don't care about, elitist that I am. RAWR military sizes still earn a yawn, even if they manage to maintain a following of groupies.

There are a few NS folk that I supremely respect, both allies and opponents. For example, I have always respected Melkor Unchained because in spite of being RAWR huge he's also managed to coordinate and lead a lot of other nations, regardless of my opinion of their role-playing ability. That sheer force of personality earns him my respect if nothing else. When role-playing near him (and only recently with him) it has always been with consideration for his role and standing among the folk I consider in my sphere of influence. Even if they don't like him, they still acknowledge him.

Mostly, I call people superpowers if they can influence, manipulate or outright bully other nations into acting as they want. Melkor does it because he's the best at being bad. Nathicana does it because she's the best at manipulating things behind the scenes. Scolopendra does it because he's meticulous, methodical and makes so much damned sense you have to work hard in order to find a reason to disagree with him. People hoping to play in the big leagues approach him first all the time, because if they can earn his respect they know they'll be accepted by others. Folks, there's no better definition of power than that.

I am not a superpower. I'm simply not active enough to qualify. But I'm close to those who are, and I'm content to role-play my nation in the shadow of theirs, pulling what strings I can and making my own contributions. Not everyone gets to be in the limelight, and not all the time.

What's the quickest way to lose superpower status? Stop contributing, or destroy your ability to contribute. Menelmacar was a superpower once, but Sirithil has gotten too overwhelmed with Real Life tm to put in the effort to maintain it. AMF was highly respected, but after the second (or was it third?) time Damien Dreadfire came back from the dead, people started getting bored and looking elsewhere. And EOTED...the less said the better.

This is cooperative role-play. The more you can cooperate in your role-play, the better your chances of becoming a superpower that everyone can acknowledge. There's far more to it than claiming the biggest army and the best equipment.

I would like to know how you figure out your nations UN ranking on miltary spending and all.

AMF was highly respected, but after the second (or was it third?) time Damien Dreadfire came back from the dead, people started getting bored and looking elsewhere.


OOC: That happened only once Trez, and I did it because I missed RPing the character so I brought him back. It's amazing how the number of times he's been resurrected has gradually inflated over the months. :rolleyes:

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For me it basically comes down to the ability to project ones ideas, beliefs, and will upon others.

That said, I don't see that it matters.

*Applauds*

Even though this is from '04, still excellent.