The Island of Rose
24-10-2004, 22:12
First of all don't expect an OMG UBER LONG guide. I'm just going to nitpick about a few things that bother me. In fact, don't expect anything fancy either.
Me being an OMG UBER ISLAND NATION, I must have an OMG NAVY bigger then my Air Force or Army. I bet nations that have a coast have large Navies also, but maybe I'm wrong.
Well, this is a guide/rant about...
Dan dan dan!
NAVAL LANDINGS
What is a Naval Landing?
It's when you land on a nation with boats.
Now when people think of Naval Landings I bet you think of OMG NORMANDY! That means you must think of.
-Heavily fortified beaches
-Men dieing and screaming
-Saving Private Ryan
Well guess what boys and girls, it's not as easy as it looks. If you want to make a naval landing first you must:
-Find out if he has a shore
(You can't invade an inland nation)
-Ask about defenses
(Make sure it is OOC, ICly he's not going to tell you. You just can't waltz up with 100,000 men, say "I claim this land in the name of England!" and not expect to get shot. No, quite the opposite, you'll get shot multiple times, yes, multiple times. Or beat back.)
Well... now that you have done the basics, let's get to more basics... how to land properly.
First of all, it takes time to enter a nation with water. And the defending nation can use that time to... I don't know, blow your ships out of the water making you waste billions of lives and dollars?
(But I have Air Troops!)
Oh yeah, but they can't stay alive without food, water, supplies? They'll run out soon and then they'll get cut! Or killed, or both...
Now, let's say most of your ships arrive at shore and you have a beachhead.
(But wait, you forgot about terrain!)
Why yes I did! Remember kiddies, soldiers can't walk on mud or tanks land good on forest coasts. They're not Master Chief you know!
(Now to the beach head)
Yes.... now you must figure out the following:
-Find a Harbor or make one
(Those big boats need to land somewhere!)
You have a Harbor? Good! Now you need to go inside the country, take down the cities, and then you can finally say....
"I claim this land in the name of England!"
But defenders, use scorched Earth. If they can't suck from your land, you'll complicate them logistics of theirs.
Ah logisitics! Remember attackers, a Naval Landing is OMG LOGISTICALLY LONG! So you'll have to waste billions doing a landing.
Defenders, now you must be thinking (I'll build walls and things!)
Don't worry, just have tanks outside the landing beach and blast em.
And that was the informal guide to beach landings, give me criticisms and advice, hell, I suck at logistics really :D
Of course if you want to take an Island, there are alternatives:
OOC:
Looks good to me. The fact that naval landings are such difficult, complex, painful affairs is why I've never gone through with one. All the logistics, amphibious unit assualts, beating back already fortified enemy positions at the landing sites - in my admittedly limited RPing experience, I've found it easier to bomb the enemy from afar until they're forced to the bargaining table instead. There is much more to landing on a hostile shore than some currently believe, and I think this post does a good job of explaining some of that.
And defenders, you don't need to destroy every ship with big ships. And offenders, a small tip.
To have a naval landing you need a couple of other things:
naval superiority
Well it is kind of obvious but you would be surprised how many people forget how damaging the odd mini sub or fast patrol boat is to things like landing craft and RiBs. You don't nessicarilly have to destroy their entire navy but you have to make sure he doesn't have any where you are landing, thus you can now use your big shiny ships to pound his defenses (or if you are a truly sneaky bugger, blow up his reserve tanks with long range missiles... oops did i say that out loud )
Air superiority:
Again pretty obvious but rather difficult considering that you will be relying solely on carrier borne aircraft (you did remember your carriers?), unless you happen to have friendly bases within a couple of hundred Ms.
Unless you have both of these you may as well not bother with a full naval landing, of course small raids are something else...
And of course there are other ways to land supplies.
Way back when the World-Wide Cluster Fuck, Scene Two was playing the amphibious troops didn't have the luxury of hovercraft to land tanks and other heavy equipment away from the wet sand of the shoreline. They also did not have the luxury of heavy-lift transport aircraft to land more troops once an airport was secure.
Standard Imperial Marines doctrine have always been to force an initial beachead with light infantry and cavalry divisions and then follow up with mechanized infantry divisions as a second wave. When that occurs the troops would move inland and secure the neareast international airport for the heavy-lift aircraft to begin bringing in Imperial Army troops. It saves time and lives to not have to force a harbor and is arguably the quicker and less risky solution.
But Crookfur wants to add something to that:
the majority of amphibious operations in NS are not going to be D-Day or any of the other western theatre landings of WW2, they are going to at best similar to the pacific island hoping or at worst like the Falklands (funny how people forget about the fact that it was a rahter large modern amphibious, or rather combined arms, operation) ie fought at the end of very very long supply chains.
D-day involved over 7000ships (and contary to my estemed collegue SS's statemnet the nromandy ports were fairly high on the objective lists despite the fact that the allies basically biult entirely new ones at each landing site) yet it involved a relatively short crossing. To make that sort of landing in the NS enviroment you will be required to double or tripple the number of vessels. While the ships used will likely be individually of a higher capability you will face the fact that you will need to carry all the massive stores that were warehoused in the south east of england with you.
Here's a lil History for ya:
the difficulty of amphibious landings is the prinicipal reason the US Marines got a bunch of helicopters, and there hasn't been a major (division sized) landing since Korea (Inchon 1950)
It takes a really big war to have a situation so critical that a nation is willing to take the casualties and risks needed for a major amphibious assault.
World War 2 saw a lot of Amphibous landings.... some were relatively unopposed, but some, like Omaha Beach, Tarawa and Iwo Jima were extremely costly.
Invade a defended beach and you are going to have to soak up a lot of lumps.
Major airborne (parachute) assaults have the same problems too, and the last big one was a brigade sized assault in Congo in the 1970s
Our own Omz222 has more info-mation.
However, with airborne assaults, the danger of surface-to-air weapons aside, you do have to remember that if you drop troops into someone's territory in a joint operation, you gotta either have some way to have then link up with the incoming amphibious forces for supplies (just like in Operation Overlord/D-Day). Otherwise, it is highly likely that these airborne troops aren't going to survive for long without food and ammunition.
Helicopter landing could be possible, but it couldn't carry much equipment, and you do need a landing site for helicopters to actually land. The helicopters could also be exposed to surface-to-air missiles, if a shore bombardment is done improperly and there are still large concentrations of enemy troops very near the area. As with this, I also don't quite approve putting LCACs into the water tens of kilometers away and have them make their way towards the shore on their own, since the possibility is that they are going to be blown up, unless you drop a combination of LCACs and LCUs from a short distance offshore, while maintaining air support and have the naval gunfire support that you'd need (since most 5" guns on RL ships right now can't fire their percise rounds too far, and missiles are very expensive to do the job). Logistics will also be a problem if you do drop the LCACs thirty miles away, since not only you'd need a much longer time to pick up and deliver the supplies, but also that you can only do so via the landing craft and (hopefully) helicopters. The amphibious ships would be within range of shore-based missile and coastal artillery batteries anyways (which is also another reason why warships should be armored in NS naval combat).
----------------------------
Because of these factors, and although the Omzian Navy rarely conducts actual landings, our doctrine for a typical medium-scale amphibious operation is always (after obstacles has been cleared through an intensive shore bombardment) using a sizable amount of Marine infantry forces to land from landing craft and amphibious tractors at close ranges, while destroyers, cruisers, and carrier aircraft provide continued gunfire and close air support. If mobile gun and missile batteries on enemy shore fires, it is likely that UAVs over the area will pick the source up (which will be another target for the 5" and 8" rounds on my destroyers). Once the main infantry lands, armor (in the form of tanks) will also land via LST vessels, while they advance towards their objectives (which will be typically linking up with possible airborne troops, capturing a significant nearby town linked to other hostile territories, and/or capturing a possible airstrip or dock). Once this is finished and the beachhead is secured, casulties will be evacuated, while they are replaced by other soldiers, delivered from ships and helicopters.
Me being an OMG UBER ISLAND NATION, I must have an OMG NAVY bigger then my Air Force or Army. I bet nations that have a coast have large Navies also, but maybe I'm wrong.
Well, this is a guide/rant about...
Dan dan dan!
NAVAL LANDINGS
What is a Naval Landing?
It's when you land on a nation with boats.
Now when people think of Naval Landings I bet you think of OMG NORMANDY! That means you must think of.
-Heavily fortified beaches
-Men dieing and screaming
-Saving Private Ryan
Well guess what boys and girls, it's not as easy as it looks. If you want to make a naval landing first you must:
-Find out if he has a shore
(You can't invade an inland nation)
-Ask about defenses
(Make sure it is OOC, ICly he's not going to tell you. You just can't waltz up with 100,000 men, say "I claim this land in the name of England!" and not expect to get shot. No, quite the opposite, you'll get shot multiple times, yes, multiple times. Or beat back.)
Well... now that you have done the basics, let's get to more basics... how to land properly.
First of all, it takes time to enter a nation with water. And the defending nation can use that time to... I don't know, blow your ships out of the water making you waste billions of lives and dollars?
(But I have Air Troops!)
Oh yeah, but they can't stay alive without food, water, supplies? They'll run out soon and then they'll get cut! Or killed, or both...
Now, let's say most of your ships arrive at shore and you have a beachhead.
(But wait, you forgot about terrain!)
Why yes I did! Remember kiddies, soldiers can't walk on mud or tanks land good on forest coasts. They're not Master Chief you know!
(Now to the beach head)
Yes.... now you must figure out the following:
-Find a Harbor or make one
(Those big boats need to land somewhere!)
You have a Harbor? Good! Now you need to go inside the country, take down the cities, and then you can finally say....
"I claim this land in the name of England!"
But defenders, use scorched Earth. If they can't suck from your land, you'll complicate them logistics of theirs.
Ah logisitics! Remember attackers, a Naval Landing is OMG LOGISTICALLY LONG! So you'll have to waste billions doing a landing.
Defenders, now you must be thinking (I'll build walls and things!)
Don't worry, just have tanks outside the landing beach and blast em.
And that was the informal guide to beach landings, give me criticisms and advice, hell, I suck at logistics really :D
Of course if you want to take an Island, there are alternatives:
OOC:
Looks good to me. The fact that naval landings are such difficult, complex, painful affairs is why I've never gone through with one. All the logistics, amphibious unit assualts, beating back already fortified enemy positions at the landing sites - in my admittedly limited RPing experience, I've found it easier to bomb the enemy from afar until they're forced to the bargaining table instead. There is much more to landing on a hostile shore than some currently believe, and I think this post does a good job of explaining some of that.
And defenders, you don't need to destroy every ship with big ships. And offenders, a small tip.
To have a naval landing you need a couple of other things:
naval superiority
Well it is kind of obvious but you would be surprised how many people forget how damaging the odd mini sub or fast patrol boat is to things like landing craft and RiBs. You don't nessicarilly have to destroy their entire navy but you have to make sure he doesn't have any where you are landing, thus you can now use your big shiny ships to pound his defenses (or if you are a truly sneaky bugger, blow up his reserve tanks with long range missiles... oops did i say that out loud )
Air superiority:
Again pretty obvious but rather difficult considering that you will be relying solely on carrier borne aircraft (you did remember your carriers?), unless you happen to have friendly bases within a couple of hundred Ms.
Unless you have both of these you may as well not bother with a full naval landing, of course small raids are something else...
And of course there are other ways to land supplies.
Way back when the World-Wide Cluster Fuck, Scene Two was playing the amphibious troops didn't have the luxury of hovercraft to land tanks and other heavy equipment away from the wet sand of the shoreline. They also did not have the luxury of heavy-lift transport aircraft to land more troops once an airport was secure.
Standard Imperial Marines doctrine have always been to force an initial beachead with light infantry and cavalry divisions and then follow up with mechanized infantry divisions as a second wave. When that occurs the troops would move inland and secure the neareast international airport for the heavy-lift aircraft to begin bringing in Imperial Army troops. It saves time and lives to not have to force a harbor and is arguably the quicker and less risky solution.
But Crookfur wants to add something to that:
the majority of amphibious operations in NS are not going to be D-Day or any of the other western theatre landings of WW2, they are going to at best similar to the pacific island hoping or at worst like the Falklands (funny how people forget about the fact that it was a rahter large modern amphibious, or rather combined arms, operation) ie fought at the end of very very long supply chains.
D-day involved over 7000ships (and contary to my estemed collegue SS's statemnet the nromandy ports were fairly high on the objective lists despite the fact that the allies basically biult entirely new ones at each landing site) yet it involved a relatively short crossing. To make that sort of landing in the NS enviroment you will be required to double or tripple the number of vessels. While the ships used will likely be individually of a higher capability you will face the fact that you will need to carry all the massive stores that were warehoused in the south east of england with you.
Here's a lil History for ya:
the difficulty of amphibious landings is the prinicipal reason the US Marines got a bunch of helicopters, and there hasn't been a major (division sized) landing since Korea (Inchon 1950)
It takes a really big war to have a situation so critical that a nation is willing to take the casualties and risks needed for a major amphibious assault.
World War 2 saw a lot of Amphibous landings.... some were relatively unopposed, but some, like Omaha Beach, Tarawa and Iwo Jima were extremely costly.
Invade a defended beach and you are going to have to soak up a lot of lumps.
Major airborne (parachute) assaults have the same problems too, and the last big one was a brigade sized assault in Congo in the 1970s
Our own Omz222 has more info-mation.
However, with airborne assaults, the danger of surface-to-air weapons aside, you do have to remember that if you drop troops into someone's territory in a joint operation, you gotta either have some way to have then link up with the incoming amphibious forces for supplies (just like in Operation Overlord/D-Day). Otherwise, it is highly likely that these airborne troops aren't going to survive for long without food and ammunition.
Helicopter landing could be possible, but it couldn't carry much equipment, and you do need a landing site for helicopters to actually land. The helicopters could also be exposed to surface-to-air missiles, if a shore bombardment is done improperly and there are still large concentrations of enemy troops very near the area. As with this, I also don't quite approve putting LCACs into the water tens of kilometers away and have them make their way towards the shore on their own, since the possibility is that they are going to be blown up, unless you drop a combination of LCACs and LCUs from a short distance offshore, while maintaining air support and have the naval gunfire support that you'd need (since most 5" guns on RL ships right now can't fire their percise rounds too far, and missiles are very expensive to do the job). Logistics will also be a problem if you do drop the LCACs thirty miles away, since not only you'd need a much longer time to pick up and deliver the supplies, but also that you can only do so via the landing craft and (hopefully) helicopters. The amphibious ships would be within range of shore-based missile and coastal artillery batteries anyways (which is also another reason why warships should be armored in NS naval combat).
----------------------------
Because of these factors, and although the Omzian Navy rarely conducts actual landings, our doctrine for a typical medium-scale amphibious operation is always (after obstacles has been cleared through an intensive shore bombardment) using a sizable amount of Marine infantry forces to land from landing craft and amphibious tractors at close ranges, while destroyers, cruisers, and carrier aircraft provide continued gunfire and close air support. If mobile gun and missile batteries on enemy shore fires, it is likely that UAVs over the area will pick the source up (which will be another target for the 5" and 8" rounds on my destroyers). Once the main infantry lands, armor (in the form of tanks) will also land via LST vessels, while they advance towards their objectives (which will be typically linking up with possible airborne troops, capturing a significant nearby town linked to other hostile territories, and/or capturing a possible airstrip or dock). Once this is finished and the beachhead is secured, casulties will be evacuated, while they are replaced by other soldiers, delivered from ships and helicopters.