NationStates Jolt Archive

Since the last several dozen posts have been about Out of Character comments, I thought it neighborly to create this thread. All interested parties in the following RP here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=367307) are encouraged to use this space instead of the actual role-play for purposes of discussing in character semantics, logistics, and so forth.

Please keep the personal flaming to a minimum, state your opinions with evidence and logical reasoning, and have fun. I feel that this war (if it erupts into one) has some serious potential to change the political map of NS, so it should be delightful to participate in.

Prehaps this would be a good place to ask for a brief summary?

BUMP

As of right now, the Nation of The Macabees has prepared a fleet in Freemantia Territorial Waters. Since this fleet action is both rather large and from a nation whose alliances are known to be distrustful of NATO and its member states, several nations' interests have been piqued. Right now there has been very little interaction between The Macabees fleet, the RWA, and NATO right now, but (depending on the growth of the role-play) could develop into a large scale naval conflict.

To trace the evolution of the RP, the majority of the posts #60 and below are legitimate IC. There are a few viable tidbits afterwards, bur right now it’s devolved into an arguing session about AMF foreign policy, number-wanking, and godmodding.

Please, to all members involved in the RP, place your complaints here!

Another BUMP for people to tag to this thread.

TAG

And IDF, take your bickering here.

tag

tag

what RL part of the world is Macabee in?

tag..and I believe Maccabees doesn't have any rl territory tho I may be wrong.

tag..and I believe Maccabees doesn't have any rl territory tho I may be wrong.
I don't care if he doesn't have RL territory, he has to be in some RL region like the North Atlantic or South Pacific or something like that.

ttttttag!

I don't care if he doesn't have RL territory, he has to be in some RL region like the North Atlantic or South Pacific or something like that.

My regions Imperial Armies, thats not a rl place. Many people here aren't in rl regions and if you wanna know what region hes in take two minutes to look it up.

I know this is off topic, but because of this 'incident' I've broken the 10,000 post mark. YAY.

Now you can get an Avatar AMF!

The NS admin have disabled avatars......

Oh... eh.

hello :sniper: :mp5:

My regions Imperial Armies, thats not a rl place. Many people here aren't in rl regions and if you wanna know what region hes in take two minutes to look it up.
you misunderstood me. I want to know what part of the world his nation is located. He has to be located somewhere on the globe if he exists and I want to know where it is.

you misunderstood me. I want to know what part of the world his nation is located. He has to be located somewhere on the globe if he exists and I want to know where it is.
Uh...no they don't. I understand that your relatively new at this, so let me explain.

No NS nation has to be on the Earth as we know it. I'm not. Tremalkier is a desert island around the size of Australia, with the same type of isolation and few surrounding landmasses. Does that mean Tremalkier is in Australia? No. It doesn't exist. The NS globe is not the Earth. If it were, I think you'd have a problem finding space for the tens of trillions of people, including tens, maybe even hundreds, that overlap the same areas. NS nations need not have geographical locations analogous to the Earth.

Uh...no they don't. I understand that your relatively new at this, so let me explain.

No NS nation has to be on the Earth as we know it. I'm not. Tremalkier is a desert island around the size of Australia, with the same type of isolation and few surrounding landmasses. Does that mean Tremalkier is in Australia? No. It doesn't exist. The NS globe is not the Earth. If it were, I think you'd have a problem finding space for the tens of trillions of people, including tens, maybe even hundreds, that overlap the same areas. NS nations need not have geographical locations analogous to the Earth.

The way it works is that the NS world is the size of Jupiter with the same landmasses as Earth, plus new ones. What i want to know is where Macabees is on the Earth. While you may have been around longer, I have more posting experience to know this. It is possible to make up a landmass like you did, but when you do you have to put it in some ocean like the Pacific. For example, TIOR made up a landmass and put it in the Med.

The way it works is that the NS world is the size of Jupiter with the same landmasses as Earth, plus new ones. What i want to know is where Macabees is on the Earth. While you may have been around longer, I have more posting experience to know this. It is possible to make up a landmass like you did, but when you do you have to put it in some ocean like the Pacific. For example, TIOR made up a landmass and put it in the Med.
Um...no you don't. My nation was deleted in early February, this is the resurrected version. Every post I made before that deletion was lost, and my post count reverted to zero. It is unknown whether this is reversible, and I have heard nothing lately from the Mods suggesting movement on this front.

So in reality, no you don't. I don't place Tremalkier in Earth's geographical set-up, and neither do many nations. In fact, the very idea of doing so is, well, kind of silly and useless. NS operated, and has operated, and will continue to operate, without a set geography. Some nations use Earth, most don't. Its quite unnecessary for it to use Earth in fact. There is simply no reason to do it.

((OOC: Actually Hallad did, but yeah. I guess we're in the Med now O_o ))

What I think IDF is trying to do is figure out an approximate location in the world in order to prevent one of the key portions of Godmodding: the "omnipresent deployment". After all, one of the major portions of a successful military campaign is the proximity (or lack thereof) between two sparring nations.

The whole concept of logistics and supply comes from very significant factors, and distance is one of the principle ones. Take for example my nation: Since I RP as if I was located in Madagascar, it would take me 8 to 10 weeks to deploy and secure ground troops in a South American theater of war. Even just a small relation to Earth based landforms, such as in the middle of the Indian Ocean 600 km south of Sri Lanka, would be enough to make adjustments to any amount of land and naval based deployment.

Schultaria Prime got it right. I just want to get an idea where he is so when his ships move, we have time to see where their going and an idea of how long they have to travel and for logistical reasons.

Most nations RP as a RL geographical region now. That is why they have the 5 or something Earths now. I RP as Israel here and have the same geographical location.

~tag~

Um...no you don't. My nation was deleted in early February, this is the resurrected version. Every post I made before that deletion was lost, and my post count reverted to zero. It is unknown whether this is reversible, and I have heard nothing lately from the Mods suggesting movement on this front.

So in reality, no you don't. I don't place Tremalkier in Earth's geographical set-up, and neither do many nations. In fact, the very idea of doing so is, well, kind of silly and useless. NS operated, and has operated, and will continue to operate, without a set geography. Some nations use Earth, most don't. Its quite unnecessary for it to use Earth in fact. There is simply no reason to do it.

If there is no discernable location, Macabees is declared to be on the other side of the NS planet as everyone else. Considering it's the size of Jupiter, his fleet should arrive at 30 knots in... two hundred years? (/sarcasm)

Do you see the problem now, Tremalkier?

We're attempting to establish logistics. How long do supplies take to get from A to B, what they have to go over, etc.

Now, if you want to say "its all in random places", ok - but then a nuclear strike is going to be fired point blank into all your locations, including your silos, and through your defenses as I'm deciding my launchers are inside your defense line (/sarcasm #2).

In short - yes, we all know about the NS planet/plane/tesseract. Now where is everyone in relation to everyone else?

If there is no discernable location, Macabees is declared to be on the other side of the NS planet as everyone else. Considering it's the size of Jupiter, his fleet should arrive at 30 knots in... two hundred years? (/sarcasm)

Do you see the problem now, Tremalkier?

We're attempting to establish logistics. How long do supplies take to get from A to B, what they have to go over, etc.

Now, if you want to say "its all in random places", ok - but then a nuclear strike is going to be fired point blank into all your locations, including your silos, and through your defenses as I'm deciding my launchers are inside your defense line (/sarcasm #2).

In short - yes, we all know about the NS planet/plane/tesseract. Now where is everyone in relation to everyone else?

Quite simply solved. You decide it prior to the war. Keep a record of it.

If I fight against nations from say...Telarus Prime (fake region...I think) all the time, I'll give a distance to Telarus Prime, through in a geography, and we are set. Logistics works the same way. For instance, I have no wish whatsoever to be associated with any part of the Earth. None of it makes sense it what I regard to be Tremalkier's geography. Thereby, if I go to war, we'll quickly compile some geographical guidelines and work from there. Furthermore, who says this is all one planet? Who says that the nations involved don't happen to be isolated to something the size of a single moon? Face it, this is RP, you modify things as is needed for your RP to work. In this case I'm currently planning on operating under the basis that the main area of conflict is approximately 21 days transit time from the Tremalkien continent, and about 17 from Galahad. The single unit of Hammers that have arrived so far where everything I had in the area (I'll be going a bit more into depth with them soon enough).

There is no reason to use Earth, all you need to do is use reasonable numbers, and stay consistent.

Quite simply solved. You decide it prior to the war. Keep a record of it.

If I fight against nations from say...Telarus Prime (fake region...I think) all the time, I'll give a distance to Telarus Prime, through in a geography, and we are set. Logistics works the same way. For instance, I have no wish whatsoever to be associated with any part of the Earth. None of it makes sense it what I regard to be Tremalkier's geography. Thereby, if I go to war, we'll quickly compile some geographical guidelines and work from there. Furthermore, who says this is all one planet? Who says that the nations involved don't happen to be isolated to something the size of a single moon? Face it, this is RP, you modify things as is needed for your RP to work. In this case I'm currently planning on operating under the basis that the main area of conflict is approximately 21 days transit time from the Tremalkien continent, and about 17 from Galahad. The single unit of Hammers that have arrived so far where everything I had in the area (I'll be going a bit more into depth with them soon enough).

There is no reason to use Earth, all you need to do is use reasonable numbers, and stay consistent.

True, but this assumes mapping skills, sensibility by the other player, time to work all this out, yadda yadda yadda.

Whereas using Earth, its all already there.

Shortcut.

Thats why most use Earth. There's no "have to", but it speeds things up.

*begins to respect Tremalkier a tad more*

You don't seem to be getting what we're going after. We're looking for a reasonable location for logistical purposes.

I can be just as cryptic as it seems to me that you're trying to be especially since my region is really not supposed to be anywhere in the world, but I try to put it somewhere that can make some sense for RP purposes. It doesn't seem to me that you're even TRYING to do that.

True, but this assumes mapping skills, sensibility by the other player, time to work all this out, yadda yadda yadda.

Whereas using Earth, its all already there.

Shortcut.

Thats why most use Earth. There's no "have to", but it speeds things up.

*begins to respect Tremalkier a tad more*
(OOC: That is true, which is why I've always advocated making a pre-war post on the side, or even operate through telegrams, to set this stuff up beforehand. Its the major problem with large-scale wars, logistics become a nightmare, as invading nations start throwing tens of millions of troops into the midst of battle, without explaining how they got there, how they are being fed, getting their ammunition, where field hospitals are getting set up, how their communications are suddenly in place, etc, etc.

Using this war as an exemple, I've already had to figure out a few logistical problems.

1) Isolated war zone, base capacity is effectively zero.
Solution: Ascertain control of surrounding terrain for relay+coordination bases. Because major landmasses are minimal, naval forces will also have to be used for command posts and supply bases, largely through the good old fashioned submarine hop system (basically get some big-crappy old subs, fill em with supplies, and park em).

2) Long Distance Naval Zone, supply line will be stretched and may be cut.
Solution: If the line is long, make it wide. As of yet there are no major obstaces separating Tremalkier, or Galahad, from the front yet they are still both far from it. Because of this, the supply routes must be variable, utilizing both air and naval systems. Varying lines will make them harder to cut, and randomizing patrol routes can further harm attempts to cut them.

3) No pre-existing field hospitals or repair fields.
Solution: Pop, pull, and push. If its a ship, then sink it below the surface at the shallowest depth possible, get a tug, and pull it to a predetermined location where field docks can be emplaced, then fix it. As for hospitals, the critically and heavily wounded will have to be sent to Galahad or Tremalkier, depending on the open routes, thereby causing a need for more small cruisers and darters than normal, other casualities will again be forced to either be pushed to "field dock" bases, or at need, converted ships, likely transports. Medical personal will have to be carrying "hospital trunks", i.e. large cases of blood, equipment, and other necessities.

I'm still trying to figure out how to set up a better relay system, but I'll stick with what I have if nothing else works.

Jesus Christ, whatever happened to good old fashioned story telling?

3) No pre-existing field hospitals or repair fields.
Solution: Pop, pull, and push. If its a ship, then sink it below the surface at the shallowest depth possible, get a tug, and pull it to a predetermined location where field docks can be emplaced, then fix it. As for hospitals, the critically and heavily wounded will have to be sent to Galahad or Tremalkier, depending on the open routes, thereby causing a need for more small cruisers and darters than normal, other casualities will again be forced to either be pushed to "field dock" bases, or at need, converted ships, likely transports. Medical personal will have to be carrying "hospital trunks", i.e. large cases of blood, equipment, and other necessities.

I'm still trying to figure out how to set up a better relay system, but I'll stick with what I have if nothing else works.

If you have a concern with hospitals you may want to look into dedicated Hospital or Medical Support Vessels. If you click the link in my signature, check the Blue Cross Class and the Metch Class. The Metch provides that forward capable battlefield hospital while the Blue Cross hangs further back and provides more comprehensive care.

Link to the post with the ships in question (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7258650&postcount=3)

Unfortunately there was no "prior time" in this war; since this is predominantly unscripted free form Role Play, there hasn't been much time to establish a precedent of where current military and country locations are located. By the time the semantics are settled, the guns have already cooled, cities have been leveled, and those who were preparing to wait for a general settlement on geography have been caught with their pants down.

As Vastiva has already said, Earth is good because it provides a ready made template in terms of distances, geography, and little things such as weather patterns. Some role-players who have a great deal of events outside of the forums have little time to focus on the more detailed aspects.

Jesus Christ, whatever happened to good old fashioned story telling?
(OOC: Bill James. Well, actually no, there were many other stat junkies before him, but if you know baseball then you can probably catch my drift. Still, to return to the point, for a good story, you need a setting. What happens first in a good story? The setting is set. Hell, it took Tolstoy nearly 100 pages to show the setting for War and Peace, I think we can devote at least a little time to making sure we don't just make stuff up on the fly. I mean, anyone can claim to be the best military in the world, and claim to have whatever they want. That doesn't mean anyone else has to believe that they are doing anything but talking straight out of their ass. For instance, Belem, just to use an example, might claim he is sending 15,000 tanks to destroy my homeland. How they are getting there is might be just a minor inconvienance to him, but to most others it will be nothing more than another unbased godmode. Or, to use you for an example if you don't mind, you might say that due to the large number of wars your in, your military is the best. On the other hand, some nations might argue it would have worn down your army, killed many of your most veteran soldiers and best commanders, as well as destroyed much of your material, while causing morale dips at home. Unless you figure out the parameters first, everything can devolve, and usually does devolve, into nothing more than flaming)

As Vastiva has already said, Earth is good because it provides a ready made template in terms of distances, geography, and little things such as weather patterns. Some role-players who have a great deal of events outside of the forums have little time to focus on the more detailed aspects.
(OOC: Which would explain why I'm in a major RP on very rare occasions. Don't have the time. However, when I make the commitment, it should be done right. Its not hard to set the parameters, hell I just set basically everything regarding my situation in the above post. Its not hard, it just requires a tiny bit of brainpower)

If you have a concern with hospitals you may want to look into dedicated Hospital or Medical Support Vessels. If you click the link in my signature, check the Blue Cross Class and the Metch Class. The Metch provides that forward capable battlefield hospital while the Blue Cross hangs further back and provides more comprehensive care.

Link to the post with the ships in question (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7258650&postcount=3)
The Kaiser politely dismisses your offer of overpriced garbage. Attempts at making supersystems like these appears all the more useless when one considers that a single well coordinated zodiac suicide strike could knock out what would have to be the lynchpin of your medical forces on an entire front. So sorry, we will continue to shy away from the ripest targets available.

The Kaiser politely dismisses your offer of overpriced garbage. Attempts at making supersystems like these appears all the more useless when one considers that a single well coordinated zodiac suicide strike could knock out what would have to be the lynchpin of your medical forces on an entire front. So sorry, we will continue to shy away from the ripest targets available.

This is an OCC thread.

If you would allow a zodiac suicide strike to get within a range that would place these ships in harm's way, something is wrong with your planning.

This is an OCC thread.

If you would allow a zodiac suicide strike to get within a range that would place these ships in harm's way, something is wrong with your planning.
(OOC: Your post didn't look OOC, it looked like an advertisement, so I gave an official response. The fact of the matter is, if its in the field, its in the field. If its not in the field, its useless. So are you trying to sell me something that is useless, or something that is magically invulnerable, or worse yet, something I'm going to have to devote a large share of resources to protect, when all it is is a field hospital?)

(OOC: Which would explain why I'm in a major RP on very rare occasions. Don't have the time. However, when I make the commitment, it should be done right. Its not hard to set the parameters, hell I just set basically everything regarding my situation in the above post. Its not hard, it just requires a tiny bit of brainpower)

When you're pulling 17 credits at a University, there's little time to dedicate to the realm of the imaginary at any time (except for now when I have a break between exams). I tend to think of things involving conflict in terms of Sun Tzu; I would prefer to know specifics about the terrain in which I'm fighting in (which provides the second biggest reason why I've never involved myself in an armed conflict RP).

The things I look for if I wanted to RP a ground campaign would be:

+Elevation:

If I'm in a valley, I would suspect an ambush. If the ground is flat I would expect a protracted armor battle. If the terrain is mountainous, then my highly mechanized armed forces would be rendered impotent without any passable terrain.

+Terrain Characteristics:

What exactly is my army crossing? I wouldn't expect every territory to be perfectly level concrete surfacing; things such as rivers, forests, and passes between hills make for good scenes of raucous fighting and give more depth to the battle at hand.

+Weather:

Are my troops comfortable while marching in the midst of early summer, or are they losing body parts due to a freezing ice storm with -30 Fahrenheit wind chill? Is rain keeping my supply lines stuck in the mud, or has a windstorm knocked my 40 million dollar interceptor straight into an enemy city?

Now I wouldn't be overly detailed with these three specifics in a short and quick RP, but it's these little things which provide the rich backdrop on which we play our little game. In storybook terms it's the background and scenery, in military terms these things provide legitimate concern for commanders and grunts alike; I like to have at least a fairly decent knowledge of what my troops would face before I committed them to any serious action. If they were to do battle in the endless flatness of the Great Plains I wouldn't worry; if they were to do battle in Central Asia, or the South Pacific, then I might practice a bit more caution in developing an RP strategy.

(OOC: Your post didn't look OOC, it looked like an advertisement, so I gave an official response. The fact of the matter is, if its in the field, its in the field. If its not in the field, its useless. So are you trying to sell me something that is useless, or something that is magically invulnerable, or worse yet, something I'm going to have to devote a large share of resources to protect, when all it is is a field hospital?)

Since when are personal pronouns used in an IC advertisement?

You seem only interested in belittling everyone else's ideas. The Blue Cross Class is heavily based on the Mercy Class Hospital Ships used in the United States' Navy.

It is generally accepted that Hositpal Vessels are off limits to attack. If you're going up against someone who doesn't respect the neutrality of medical vessels, you have much bigger problems than the possibility of an attack.

Since when are personal pronouns used in an IC advertisement?

You seem only interested in belittling everyone else's ideas. The Blue Cross Class is heavily based on the Mercy Class Hospital Ships used in the United States' Navy.

It is generally accepted that Hositpal Vessels are off limits to attack. If you're going up against someone who doesn't respect the neutrality of medical vessels, you have much bigger problems than the possibility of an attack.
I suggest you reread what you wrote, and consider if it was directed at you, how you would take it. It looks absolutely like an advertisement, and was responded to as such. I also stand by my statements that I would not buy something along those lines. If this became a total war, as AMF usually likes to to, those ships would be absolute targets, and even if they weren't, they still couldn't provide the depth of care necessary for a ground campaign.

Jesus Christ, whatever happened to good old fashioned story telling?

quoted for truth & tag