NationStates Jolt Archive

A nation called Dracoinus has threatened to attack me and is giving 101 reasons as to why his claims of 145 Million soldiers (16% of his entire population) are reasonable. I told him that people only RP with a maximum of 10% and even that during wartime but he doesn't believe me. So could someone please try and get it through to him that 16% or 145 million soldiers is in no way reasonable?

MY GOD!!!! 16 PERCENT?????

I use 2 percent and I can barely maintain them..... 16%????? Your country would have a ruined economy if you got back from that war. You just cant pay to feed 145 million people away from home. And ammo cost would be unbelieveable!!!

PLEASE!!!! DONT BE STUPID!!!! USE only 2-10 PERCENT AT MOST!!!

MY GOD!!!! 16 PERCENT?????

I use 2 percent and I can barely maintain them..... 16%????? Your country would have a ruined economy if you got back from that war. You just cant pay to feed 145 million people away from home. And ammo cost would be unbelieveable!!!

PLEASE!!!! DONT BE STUPID!!!! USE only 2-10 PERCENT AT MOST!!!
You realise that these claims aren't mine but Dracoinus's right?

I agree

Wow....16% is like uber difficult to maintain....i can only maintain at the most 5%.......currently my army is only 0.8% of my population.... Let him maintain his 16% army and see whether his economy will be shattered or not......

Wait... How do you make an army?

Im new here but I know that the basic law about millitary states that there is a maximum of about 10% if your at war, if you spend loads on the millitary. There is no way anyone can have 16%. No one ever has

Not since ancient times, anyway. Alexander the great is another story entirely.

10% for maximum military seems to be a pretty good rule of thumb. Nazi Germany had a population of about 75 million, and never maintained more than about 7 million troops at any one time. (Correct me if the statistic is wrong)

The military of the Soviet Union in the midst of WWII didn't ever reach 10% of its population (200 million) ... I think at war's end it had 10-12 million afoot. The Roman Empire in ancient times policed approximately 70 million people at its height with a military establishment of about 300-400,000 including auxiliaries. Which is about .5%.

But as for a standing peacetime army, probably no more than 2% for any sort of democratic state and no more than 5% for a military state.

Alexander the Great never had any more than about 70,000 men, I believe. He started with about 40,000, recruited mostly from Macedonia, but many from other parts of Greece as well. Not sure about Macedonia's ancient population, but the rest of Greece was about 2-3 million. I'm guessing that Macedonia was about a million.

15 March 2001

India joins anti-Taliban coalition

By Rahul Bedi

India is believed to have joined Russia, the USA and Iran in a concerted front against Afghanistan's Taliban regime.

Military sources in Delhi, claim that the opposition Northern Alliance's capture of the strategic town of Bamiyan, was precipitated by the four countries' collaborative effort.

The 13 February fall of Bamiyan, after several days of heavy fighting, threatened to cut off the only land route from Kabul to Taliban troops in northern Afghanistan. However, media reports indicate that Taliban forces recaptured the town on 17 February.

India is believed to have supplied the Northern Alliance leader, Ahmed Shah Massoud, with high-altitude warfare equipment. Indian defence advisors, including air force helicopter technicians, are reportedly providing tactical advice in operations against the Taliban.

Twenty-five Indian army doctors and male nurses are also believed to be treating Northern Alliance troops at a 20-bed hospital at Farkhor, close to the Afghan-Tajik border. The Statesman newspaper quoting Indian officials said the medical contingent is being financed from Delhi.

Several recent meetings between the newly instituted Indo-US and Indo-Russian joint working groups on terrorism led to this effort to tactically and logistically counter the Taliban.

Intelligence sources in Delhi said that while India, Russia and Iran were leading the anti-Taliban campaign on the ground, Washington was giving the Northern Alliance information and logistic support. Oleg Chervov, deputy head of Russia's security council, recently described Taliban-controlled Afghanistan as a base of international terrorism attempting to expand into Central Asia. Radical Islamic groups are also trying to increase their influence across Pakistan, he said at a meeting of Indian and Russian security officials in Moscow. "All this dictates a pressing need for close co-operation between Russia and India in opposing terrorism," he said.

Military sources indicated that Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are being used as bases to launch anti-Taliban operations by India and Russia. They also hinted at the presence of a small Russian force actively assisting Massoud in the Panjsher Valley. "The situation in Afghanistan cannot be ignored as it impinges directly on the 12-year old Kashmir insurgency," an Indian military official said, adding that the Northern Alliance's elimination by the Taliban would be "disastrous" for India.

Now... what are the rules for a robotic empire? They can have any number of troops without affecting their population. What's the limit to that?

Yes, but he was the ruler of an empire that today equals about 16 countries.

Veranis,
To build an army, first you have to go to one of the GDP calculators. I like this one: GNP CALCULATOR (http://members.fortunecity.com/thracetailteann/html/gnp.html) Then, go to one of the many storefronts on NS like this one: Langolan Military Storefront (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=363895&page=5&pp=15) and buy stuff within your budget. Your military should be 2-5% of your entire population.

Hoping that helps,
Pentova

Actually, I think a nation could manage it (Please bear with me on this).

Lets say you have a nation that is horrendously rich in some valuable resource (Perhaps half of their territory is solid platinum). Almost every child over ten, but under 16, would work in harvesting this resource, as would almost anyone older than, say, 40. Those of the specified ages that are not working on resource harvesting perform other vital jobs like farming.

Between the ages of 16 and 40, citizens serve in the military or military-related roles. All weapons, ammo, fuel, food, and other resources the nation might need on a day-to-day basis is received through trade. Still, to better conserve their one exportable resource, either the citizens would exist at a fourth world level, or the troops would probably need to go without projectile weapons, and use melee weapons ;)

Oh, Veranis, there is another option for making a military. You can design your own units and organization, or simply take existing ones as a model. I've seen hundreds of nations using Soviet-era technology and weapons.

But, if you would like to see what some nation's have to sell, drop by the International Mall (http://s6.invisionfree.com/Internat...hp?showforum=40) and take a look. My stuff is near-future and future-tech, but if you head to the main IM forum, you will find plenty of shops to suit your needs.

Most smaller countries RP with a standing military of two percent of their total population, including army, navy, air force, and/or other branches of their militaries. This includes support personnel. Ten percent usually only applies if the country is actually invaded.

Larger countries often have smaller percentages of their population in active duty military because the logistics of amassing such a large force during peace time are prohibitively difficult. For one thing, larger percentages of military cause a strain on your economy since it takes away workers. I repeat: The only time you would have even 10 percent of your total population in the military is if your country is in immediate danger of being invaded. The U.S. currently has about .3 percent of its population in the army if I saw the figures correctly.

The sixteen percent figure MIGHT, repeat MIGHT apply to your military BUDGET, but then only in the short term. Part of the reason for the Soviet Union's collapse was the high percentage of their GDP devoted to military spending.

That, or just wait until you have a 3.5 trillion dollar military budget.

Edit: Sorry, 3.7... forgot about the wealthy...

Meh.. I can barely manage my army with 0.8% of my pop serving in it.

If anyone is thinking of having a military over 2%, they should really read through this thread:
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=297064&page=1&pp=30
Especially take note of the RL case studies CSJ has put together the past few days of high percentage militaries.

You can check my defense spending its more than 30% of my GDP. I have a population of over 987 Million people and I have a fierce economy.

Go check my Nations Stats. As for my military service of 16% of the population I included a complete breakdown of what that comprises. Of the apporximate 145 Million a majority are in logistics and command, THEY ARE NOT ALL BATTLEFIELD SOLDIERS which I have had to remind Sanctaphrax over and over again.

80 Million are civil defense forces. These are like everyday citizen "Militias" that receive 6 hours of training every weekend and store weapons at their homes.

20 Million are the police force, since Dracoinus has no state sponsored police force and in fact uses a specail are of the Armed Services trained in Urban Warfare called the Urban Warfare Special Forces. They are my police force for the Empire of Dracoinus.

Military service is conscripted and mandatory for all able bodies between 16 and 45. With mandatory service duty of up to 5 years and can be extended depending upon specific areas of service.

A 16% Military Service is absolutely possible if your society is militarized and set up accordingly. Remember that out of the remaining 45 Million service members a high percentage are in logistics which means, transportation, repair and maintenance, intel collection, food service, laundry, manufacturing, construction, medical service etc

At the start of the 20th century most of the European powers had 10% militaries...

You can check my defense spending its more than 30% of my GDP. I have a population of over 987 Million people and I have a fierce economy. The Soviet Union's economy collapsed under less weight. Like it or not, having that many people out of the work force will drag your economy down.

Yah...My nation has mandatory military training, but then again, its also a Fascist Military nation which is open to cloning and genetic manipulation. Every citizen, male, or female, is trained in military practices. it just happens that it has a standing army of career soldiers.

Of course, it also calls it self Wolfchester Chapter, implying its a mere segment of a larger thing. It maintains a massive military force, but the military also has military farms etc. You think the wounded get off so easily? They get to do farm work, or work on weapons etc.

But, think about logistics for 145 million. LAND constraints alone are an issue. This guy is easy to wipe out, Napalm. He has so many troops it'll inflict more losses.

Think of afghanistan, Russia. Massive forces, heavy losses, why? Simple, a small group of enemy engage Russian division with explosive weapons, the russian suffer horribly, while the thinly spread out enemy can continue to fight despite the hail of lead, they are all over, the russians are compressed.


OH BTW, If you think your economy will be doing great with that military, your wrong.

Soviet Union officials commonly falsified reports etc. Their economy was running behind their nation by years worth of produced goods. FFS, they ran out of tolier paper during the olympics.

You just sent your military to fail. You do not use the only working military model of this nature <Fascism> Nor do you understand logistics.

The Soviet Union's economy collapsed under less weight. Like it or not, having that many people out of the work force will drag your economy down.

Those people are not out of work, they work for the Goverment and get paid, the Goverment produces goods that are sold in the free market as well.

The economy of Dracoinus is centered on Military Technology. Both Civilian and Goverment enterprises work together to provide top shelf technology.

OOC: wait wait..did Drac just copy the Soviet's own words? I swear thats what the SOVIETS said, prior to their country falling apart!

Not since ancient times, anyway. Alexander the great is another story entirely.

Alexanders force wasn't actually a huge force, his military centered around an elite cadre of around 10,000 hoplite type troops. During some engagements he had possibly another 10,000, but his troops never exceeded 20,000. Hoplite warfare wasn't tailored to huge armies.

I under stand logistics VERY well. I really scratch my head sometimes when you think I have 145 Million soliders on the battlefield. I NEVER SAID I HAVE 145 Million Battlefield soliders.

80 Million Civil Defense Forces. These are common citizens, trained and armed and required to do 6 hours of training every weekend. During the week they have jobs whether it is in the private sector or working at a military firm.

20 Million are the military police force, as Dracoinus has no state sponsored police force.

The majority of the remaining 45 Million are in logistics, they operate intel equipment, drive trucks, fuel planes, move around arms and supplies, run the warhouse operations, cook food, do laundry, heal the sick, operate UAV's, repair stuff, build stuff and make stuff.

OOC:

They commonly formed shield walls, which made them nearly imprevious. What does this mean for numbers?

Hoplite warfare was based upon squad actions, large squads, but because of how it worked, it made them nearly imprevious in those times. It relied on quality, not quantity.

Also, Hoplites had distinctive officers, it boosted morale..or degraded it when the officer died ..

Two-percent of one's labour force is a reasonably sized military, five-percent is a rather large percentage for armed forces, while sixteen percent of, again, the labour force -- not the population as a whole -- is economically disastrous. That's about half the working age population. Fine for a bunch of hunter-gatherers or people with nothing living in the sticks brandishing Kalashnikovs like letters to the occupant. Come on, now...

OOC: I suspect Drac has PAINFULLY inferior technology compared to my own. I specialized Wolfchester in Armoed Fist tactics...it can crush opposing forces through that...

Drac here wants to use mass weight of numbers..20mm rotary cannons would cut him apart... Does any one on this forum have RL militay experience? If so...god help you if you gotta deal with people like Drac more oft

[quote=Dracoinus]By the way 16% of the total population of the Empire of Dracoinus are in the military so if you are thinking of invading you are going to need a force capable of taking on over 145 Million well equipped and trained military personel fighting on their home ground.

ALL people from the age of 16 to 45 MUST serve Mandatory Military Service Duty. [/quote (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=365077&page=3&pp=40&highlight=Dracoinus)

16% is beyond anyone, even a crisis military. That 100% of your whole population between 16 and 45 serves would put you beyond an imploded economy. We are talking worse than Somalia.

Your defense in the thread linked above, based on the IDF, is based on a misunderstanding of the difference between available manpower (all persojns of military age and fitness) and active duty members.

Lets look at the numbers

987 Million in population and I said 16% in military service

145 Million in "military service"

80 Millian civil defense force ie militia (un-paid)

20 Millian police force, paid but not accounted for under Military Spending Defense rules but paid under goverment services.

So that knocks out 100 Million leaving 45 Million

and 45 Million of 987 Million is

4.559% which is totally reasonable for a military force according to all the crap you have been trying to use to discount my military force.

I under stand logistics VERY well.

No, you don't.

OOC: all I gotta say is he is failing like a soviet

At the start of the 20th century most of the European powers had 10% militaries...
At the start of the 20th century, most of the European powers had their militaries entirely infantry based. There were no tanks, no aircraft, ammunition was expended at a fraction of the rate of today, and 75mm guns were considered heavy artillery.
The differences between the requirements to support a 100,000 man army then and now are astronomical, which is why the size of militaries has been, for the most part, decreasing rapidly.
Today, few modern militaries have an active force of more than 1% of the population.


In WWII, Germany did have more than 5% of its population in the military for most of the war. However, it's not as much as it seems at first glance, due to the fact that they did have conquered territories as well. Germany may have had over 12 million men under arms by 1944, but by then it also encompassed Austria, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, the Balkans, Poland, and a good portion of the USSR. When you consider that, the reality is that it generally didn't exceed 6% of the population of the total controlled territories until towards the end, when the satellites were liberated and Germany went into a desparate defensive stance. And at that point, they were quite poorly supported.
Also remember that modern militaries consume resources at a much faster rate than in WWII.

Lets look at the numbers

987 Million in population and I said 16% in military service

145 Million in "military service"

80 Millian civil defense force ie militia (un-paid)

20 Millian police force, paid but not accounted for under Military Spending Defense rules but paid under goverment services.

So that knocks out 100 Million leaving 45 Million

and 45 Million of 987 Million is

4.559% which is totally reasonable for a military force according to all the crap you have been trying to use to discount my military force.

I've a nation of 2.057 billion and an army of just over 4 million, a navy of similar size, and a total military that's about 2.3% of my labour force. How can you say you understand logistics if you have a 45 million man army? Not even the PRC has an army that large.

Lets look at the numbers

987 Million in population and I said 16% in military service

145 Million in "military service"

80 Millian civil defense force ie militia (un-paid)

20 Millian police force, paid but not accounted for under Military Spending Defense rules but paid under goverment services.

So that knocks out 100 Million leaving 45 Million

and 45 Million of 987 Million is

4.559% which is totally reasonable for a military force according to all the crap you have been trying to use to discount my military force.
A nice RL military to compare yours to (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=297064&page=3)
You are making sure to balance things out, right?

You guys assume far too many things.

A. You discount slave labor from conquered territories. Slaves are quite capable of replacing paid labor 1:1 if treated moderately well. With this, it is quite possible to claim a disproportionately high number of military forces.

B. Quick activation reserve forces. Say you train your entire working age population one day a week. It would be enough to have countless decent soldiers available at a moment's notice, enough so that you could activate them, fight a year-long war (Unfortunately, QARF's are a short-range thing. All large armies are. The sheer logistics of moving tens of millions of men overseas is enough to cause suicide), and handle the economy enough to return the QARF people to the workforce and maintain a fairly strong economy (This also entails a shift from a peace-time production economy to a war-time production economy. Overall, this means a year to half-year prep period, if you have enough things in place already).

C. High automation in the production force. If you have, say, a 1:10 ratio in terms of your workers needed to produce something versus some other country's trait in that area, then you will obviously be able to field a much larger army.

Basically, you guys assume far too much inefficiency. Heck, not even all countries are capitalist, so some don't even have to worry as much about an economy, as they control it.

Also, I'd like to bring up a point. There once was a nation that held true to both points A and B. They had a huge portion of their population in the military. Their soldiers were highly trained and well equipped. Who am I speaking about? Why, Sparta of course.

Take that point as you will.

Lets look at the numbers

987 Million in population and I said 16% in military service

145 Million in "military service"

80 Millian civil defense force ie militia (un-paid)

20 Millian police force, paid but not accounted for under Military Spending Defense rules but paid under goverment services.

So that knocks out 100 Million leaving 45 Million

and 45 Million of 987 Million is

4.559% which is totally reasonable for a military force according to all the crap you have been trying to use to discount my military force.
Nope. 2-3% for a small (>50 million) nation, >2% ACTIVE for over 50 million pop.

Those 80 million cannot possibly be active service in addition to your 45 + 20 million (80+45+20/987=14.7%, by the way).
4.6% is crisis level. You can do that temporarily, but you cannot sustain your economy long term doing so.

You guys assume far too many things.

A. You discount slave labor from conquered territories. Slaves are quite capable of replacing paid labor 1:1 if treated moderately well. With this, it is quite possible to claim a disproportionately high number of military forces.

So if 50% of the population are slaves, this means that 32% of the population of military age and fitness are active. That exceeds the number of non-slaves of age and fitness.

B. Quick activation reserve forces. Say you train your entire working age population one day a week. It would be enough to have countless decent soldiers available at a moment's notice, enough so that you could activate them, fight a year-long war (Unfortunately, QARF's are a short-range thing. All large armies are. The sheer logistics of moving tens of millions of men overseas is enough to cause suicide), and handle the economy enough to return the QARF people to the workforce and maintain a fairly strong economy (This also entails a shift from a peace-time production economy to a war-time production economy. Overall, this means a year to half-year prep period, if you have enough things in place already).

Aside from having 17% of your reserves active daily, the logistics of this idea are silly.

C. High automation in the production force. If you have, say, a 1:10 ratio in terms of your workers needed to produce something versus some other country's trait in that area, then you will obviously be able to field a much larger army.

Only if you assume far future tech. Draconis already claims future tech as modern.

Basically, you guys assume far too much inefficiency. Heck, not even all countries are capitalist, so some don't even have to worry as much about an economy, as they control it.

:confused: Non-capitalists countries are demonstrably less efficient.

Also, I'd like to bring up a point. There once was a nation that held true to both points A and B. They had a huge portion of their population in the military. Their soldiers were highly trained and well equipped. Who am I speaking about? Why, Sparta of course.

Take that point as you will.

Only if you count the citizens. The real population (as measured by the game) had a much smaller % in military.

A nice RL military to compare yours to (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=297064&page=3)
You are making sure to balance things out, right?

Of course its balanced, please read what I have posted and out of the 45 Million in active duty the majority are all logistics and support personal not ACTIVE BATTLEFIELD PARTICIPANTS.

Once again they driver trucks, fuel plans, operate fork lifts, cook food, do laundry, make stuff, build stuff, operate observation and intel equipement, control UAV's, repair stuff, work in medical services etc

I have even listed qty of Commanders and Battalion Commanders.

Our nation is very military-oriented. Our forces are somewhere between 1% and 2%. We manage to keep up a Frightening economy. The problem here is that at anything more than 2%, our economy would begin to degrade. Once we hit about 4.5% conscription, we'd have something near Basket Case. A nation just can't hold up that economy at that rate, even in future tech.
~J.D. Alcanzar, Emperor

So if 50% of the population are slaves, this means that 32% of the population of military age and fitness are active. That exceeds the number of non-slaves of age and fitness.

???

I'm confused about what you mean by this one.

Aside from having 17% of your reserves active daily, the logistics of this idea are silly.

Er, I said once a week, not daily. And the logistics are not silly. Most logistics problems come from not planning ahead, doing so would allow something like this.

Only if you assume far future tech. Draconis already claims future tech as modern.

Not entirely true. It is quite possible to automate a factory to the point where a 100 man factory drops down to a 10 man factory. You also cut out the unskilled labor and replace it with skill labor, meaning you won't have to pull skilled laborers from their jobs, just merely use the unskilled labor in the military.

:confused: Non-capitalists countries are demonstrably less efficient.

Only non-capitalist countries that were recently capitalist are less efficient. Eliminate some of the lingering ideals of capitalism, and you're looking at high efficiency. Read Thomas More's Utopia to understand. The Utopians dominated the region both militarily and production-wise.

Only if you count the citizens. The real population (as measured by the game) had a much smaller % in military.

Well, in NS, most people don't count slaves taken from foriegn countries as part of their population. Essentially, the figure you get on the information page at the main site is only the 'free native citizen' count, not the foriegn slave population.

Of course, you'd have to properly RP acquiring the slaves if you ever want someone to take you seriously.

80 Million are CIVIL DEFENSE FORCES ie UNPAID MILITIA.

THEY PROTECT THEIR LOCAL AREAS FROM AGGRESSORS and may be called upon by the goverment to protect certain local assests that are vital to either the Goverment, economy or local wellfare of the citizens.

Its like if "some" of the able bodied Americans were trained 6 hours every weekend and some specialized in certain areas. Should a national threat or weather releated occurences or earthquake etc threaten the local population they would enforce, protect, patrol and guard items that are vitual to remain in tact and under the control of the Goverment or local officials.

What is so hard to understand. They are included in the total (16%) based on they do receive military training, are armed with the latest military side and long arms and could play an active role in the protection of the Nation.

Sparta is a good example of militarized socitey, thank you, at least someone has half a brain about what is possible to achieve if the society has a common goal.

Of course its balanced, please read what I have posted and out of the 45 Million in active duty the majority are all logistics and support personal not ACTIVE BATTLEFIELD PARTICIPANTS.

Once again they driver trucks, fuel plans, operate fork lifts, cook food, do laundry, make stuff, build stuff, operate observation and intel equipement, control UAV's, repair stuff, work in medical services etc

I have even listed qty of Commanders and Battalion Commanders.
"sigh"
The figures listed ARE TOTAL MILITARY. When I say military, I mean EVERYONE in military service. When I say active military, I mean EVERYONE in active military service. If I only meant combat troops, I'd say COMBATANTS.

Sparta is a good example of an ancient economy. Of course, they were mercenaries, so they got their employers to take care of much of the logistical requirements, and slaves/conquered people count as part of the population too.
And of course, they didn't have to deal with bullets, fuel, aircraft, tanks, machinery, computers, electricity, etc. Supply lines also weren't as important as armies at that time were kept small enough to live off local food, and producing new weapons could be done anywhere.


Comparing the resources needed to support the Spartan military to those needed for militaries today is like comparing the ink supply a stylus needs for one day to that needed by a modern printing press. More than a little different.

80 Million are CIVIL DEFENSE FORCES ie UNPAID MILITIA.

THEY PROTECT THEIR LOCAL AREAS FROM AGGRESSORS and may be called upon by the goverment to protect certain local assests that are vital to either the Goverment, economy or local wellfare of the citizens.

Its like if "some" of the able bodied Americans were trained 6 hours every weekend and some specialized in certain areas. Should a national threat or weather releated occurences or earthquake etc threaten the local population they would enforce, protect, patrol and guard items that are vitual to remain in tact and under the control of the Goverment or local officials.

What is so hard to understand. They are included in the total (16%) based on they do receive military training, are armed with the latest military side and long arms and could play an active role in the protection of the Nation.

Sparta is a good example of militarized socitey, thank you, at least someone has half a brain about what is possible to achieve if the society has a common goal.
Comprehension time!
Training soldiers, even ones who work for free, takes time and money. Time away from work, time hurting the economy. What's so hard to understand about that? Not only that, but you've got to figure in costs for weapons, for practice (bullets, targets), and for vehicles. If they're just on foot, they'll be easy to wipe out.

BUMP!
any more opinions?

Excuse me. I was laughing a bit at some of the figures on here.

Draconis, that amount is unreasonable, no matter how you look at it. 10% under that model is just barely reasonable, but not 16%.

Now, let's examine another nation using a similar model: Mine.

My country is economically streamlined towards being militaristic. Defense and law enforcement total 50% of my budget (the last time I checked) and I have spent a rather large amount of money recently by investing in weapons developments and buying military technology. Most of my spending has gone towards law enforcement, due to the nation of Tiamat Taveril being unstable and their crime spilling over my borders ICly. Thus, the reason why my police force has about 100 extremely powerful tanks and two entire fleets at their command. Now, what amount of my population is in the military? 5%, some of which will never be put on the front lines.

Why is mine so high? Multiple reasons:

1) Future tech. I have a planet I discovered I am guarding with my military until I deem it safe for habitation.

2) My military also does the job of all space exploration, which is my primary concern.

3) Near-war with Tiamat Taveril and closing to war with Merlyns.

4) My nation, through a treaty, provides all military support for Tiamat Taveril. In addition, my military and police both help patrol the space territory of nearly 30 nations in one region (they're all small nations, like myself). As such, part of my economy is provided by other nations.

5) Crime is a serious problem and the military has the job of helping out the local police.

If it wasn't for the above factors, I'd drop my military to 2% and pump excess funding into research and development.

The 5% max included reserves and logistics. Draconious, if you continue to post your numberwanking n00b army, I'll launch an IGNORE cannon at you.

Hmm. I use 5%, always, a little higher during war. And anyone who says "I have an alien/robot nation, and each citizen is an uber warship of doom !!11!11!1!!1!onenoe!!!11!1shift+1!!11!11!1" is a fucktard. Ahem, I would never be talking about Species 1 or HMI, of course.

Active Service Members (in the PAID MILITARY SERVICE) is only 4.559% of my population.

So stop complaining. Its 45 Million of 987 Million total population. But even at that if YOU READ what I have already posted not all of that 45 Million are battlefield soliders.

To comment on what someone posted, yes I did say if you plan on INVADING me you will need a military force capable of beating 145 Million armed and trained military service personel. YES the total of the 145 Million have been trained to fire a weapon, some heavier weapons then others. BUT YES all 145 Million have received basic training the operation of a weapon, whatever that weapon is according to their training and specialization classification. The 80 Million CDF members (who are not paid, but required to remain in the un-organized militia, although goverment supplied) have been trained in the current battle rifle used by front line troops, they have each been issued one. A certain percentage have been trained on heavier automatic squad level support weapons of which there is 1 issued for every 100 CDF militia members

Here's a 16-percent military example, a bit of a zany one though--

A nation of nomadic hunter-gatherers, such as cavemen. Each family unit or individual would essentially fend for itself in terms of food, manufacturing goods, etc. They would not have to worry about ammo or supply lines due to the fact that they obtain their own food and use simple reusable weapons. The downside is that they could not concentrate their forces very close together or encamp them for long, because they would deplete the food resources. A nation of nomads would not have a fixed territory and would probably have to RP a "range" they inhabit within other nations. This could lead to very complex wars. However, assuming only men above a set age could fight, you could bring up maybe 30-40% of your population as active military.

Dracoinus, do you know how many bullets that is if you are actually invaded? Or spare parts, spare guns, spare uniforms, food, medical supplies, etc.? Your economy would collapse in four months under the strain, and that's a hopeful figure.

Inshallah's scenario is more realistic. Sadly, someone with a few automatic rifflles and some grenades could probably conquer that nation iif they did it right.

Active Service Members (in the PAID MILITARY SERVICE) is only 4.559% of my population.

So stop complaining. Its 45 Million of 987 Million total population. But even at that if YOU READ what I have already posted not all of that 45 Million are battlefield soliders.

To comment on what someone posted, yes I did say if you plan on INVADING me you will need a military force capable of beating 145 Million armed and trained military service personel. YES the total of the 145 Million have been trained to fire a weapon, some heavier weapons then others. BUT YES all 145 Million have received basic training the operation of a weapon, whatever that weapon is according to their training and specialization classification. The 80 Million CDF members (who are not paid, but required to remain in the un-organized militia, although goverment supplied) have been trained in the current battle rifle used by front line troops, they have each been issued one. A certain percentage have been trained on heavier automatic squad level support weapons of which there is 1 issued for every 100 CDF militia members
What we keep trying to tell you is that 4.559% of your population in the active military is too high, especially as I've yet to see a decent IC reason for having such an overbloated army. If you looked at my post for the DPRK, you'd see what you're missing.

And also, an invader doesn't have to beat all your personnel. All the invader has to do is take over key targets relating to your infrastructure (capital in particular, but possibly major economic centers like mines, oilfields, seaports, etc). In so doing, they can often avoid a huge portion of your force, and indeed succeed even though they're outnumbered. The North Korean army (or at least the portion that would invade), for example, is actually outnumberd by armed South Korean forces, yet they still have a decent chance of victory should they invade due to where and how their forces are applied, allowing them to acheive local superiority.

Conquest of a nomadic nation would be difficult, and it would risk accusations of genocide because destroying it would require basically a search and destroy on all people wearing furs and running around in the woods. It would require violating the territory of whatever nations the nomads are in and it would be such an asymmetrical conflict that it would effectively be a massacre.

I bet 5 credits he was thiinking of scaring them all into compliance instead of a massacre.

Okay. I have a large nation that holds almost 2 billion people and I have a very large military. But 16% is just going way overboard. I have never used over a million men in any conflict that I have been in. 16% is just too much. The most amount of soldiers I have ever sent into a conflict is 200,000 men. I probably have about 7% total for my armed forces and those include reserve and national guard. 16% is just too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Industrial Experiment
You guys assume far too many things.

A. You discount slave labor from conquered territories. Slaves are quite capable of replacing paid labor 1:1 if treated moderately well. With this, it is quite possible to claim a disproportionately high number of military forces.


So if 50% of the population are slaves, this means that 32% of the population of military age and fitness are active. That exceeds the number of non-slaves of age and fitness.

???

I'm confused about what you mean by this one.

About 30% of your population should be of age and fitness to serven in the military. Assuming you discount slaves serving (don't even suggest it), 50% of your population of age and fitness is ineligible to serve. 16% of your population would be exceed the 15%. Even the 5% figure would mean 1/3 of those free men of age and fitness serving.

Quote:
B. Quick activation reserve forces. Say you train your entire working age population one day a week. It would be enough to have countless decent soldiers available at a moment's notice, enough so that you could activate them, fight a year-long war (Unfortunately, QARF's are a short-range thing. All large armies are. The sheer logistics of moving tens of millions of men overseas is enough to cause suicide), and handle the economy enough to return the QARF people to the workforce and maintain a fairly strong economy (This also entails a shift from a peace-time production economy to a war-time production economy. Overall, this means a year to half-year prep period, if you have enough things in place already).


Aside from having 17% of your reserves active daily, the logistics of this idea are silly.

Er, I said once a week, not daily. And the logistics are not silly. Most logistics problems come from not planning ahead, doing so would allow something like this.

One day a week. That either works out to 100% of your military age population going active every 7 days or 17% of your military age population going active every day. And the cost of doing so would far outweight the benifits. For example, this means either the productive members of society spend 1 or 2 days off getting to training sites or you spend outrageous sums to build accessable training facilities.

Quote:
Basically, you guys assume far too much inefficiency. Heck, not even all countries are capitalist, so some don't even have to worry as much about an economy, as they control it.


Non-capitalists countries are demonstrably less efficient.

Only non-capitalist countries that were recently capitalist are less efficient. Eliminate some of the lingering ideals of capitalism, and you're looking at high efficiency. Read Thomas More's Utopia to understand. The Utopians dominated the region both militarily and production-wise.


Sorry but a well meaning but unrealistic book (yes, I've read it) is not reality.

'Give me 10 guardians and a Week, and I shall change the course of History'- Dark Reign Two general


I could deploy several of my heavy marine forces within his borders with ease, and short of Suicidal tan kattacks, they'd proceed forward.

Granted I'd support them with my own tanks..and air force..which would render a thinly stretched defense like Drac's ineffective.

My Nation is militartistic to an extreme, the young are brought up for war, the Old are volunteering to be experimented on...political rivals of the God Emperor disappear...and reappear as living targets..

I have semi complete stats for my army atm, if your interested..my AIM is BlackOneHunter... :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: @Drac

I'm around 3% - 4% for my military and I have mandatory service.

Combat Duty Troop Strength

Region Roll Call

Northern Ice Plateau 450,000
West Coast 1,500,000
South West 300,000
East Coast 2,500,000
Mid West 250,000
Southern Mexico 3,250,000

Hawaii Island Chain 50,000
Greenland 75,000


Total Combat Soliders 8,375,000

Total Population (today) 992,000,000

.0084425 % < 1% of the total population are "combat soliders".


It require a massive logistics system to support almost 8.5 Million combat soliders and I think my logistics and support staff of 45 Million - 8.375 Million is plenty adequate to support such a large force.

The mandatory training of 6 hours per weekend for each CDF member (un paid militia) does not cost the goverment of Dracoinus anything outside of what it is already paying the military trainers in the way of a monthly wage.

Dracoinus has no "sports", think of military training of the CDF as a form of entertainment. Like in the times of Rome and Sparta able bodied men (and women in the case of Dracoinus) enjoyed going out onto the field to practice mock battles and fights as a way to both excersise and to better themselves and their abilities. In the case of Dracoinus it is with modern military hardware and the training is conditional to the enviroment. So in the desert areas, CDF members are trained how to survive in the desert, how to track, how to conceal their base camps, how to detect enemy movements, the creation of ambushes etc. While in other areas, mountains, ice, coast lines etc they are trained to perform in those enviroments.

Total Combat Soliders 8,375,000

Total Population (today) 992,000,000

.0084425 % < 1% of the total population are "combat soliders".


It require a massive logistics system to support almost 8.5 Million combat soliders and I think my logistics and support staff of 45 Million - 8.375 Million is plenty adequate to support such a large force.


8.5 million combat plus 45 million logistics forces still makes a military of over 5%. (And note that 8,375,000 is .8% not .008 % ;))

A more reasonable force can be seen in the PLA (noting that the PRC has a population slightly larger than yours and a very similar set of stats, the PLA would be an excellent model for you).

The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) is the world’s largest armed force with a total strength of 2.5 million men and women serving in four arms—ground forces, air force, navy, and strategic missile force. The ground forces along total some 2 million troops and support personnel, or 80% of the PLA’s total manpower. This force also deploys 8,000 tanks, 4,000 armoured vehicles, and 25,000 artillery guns and multiple rocket launchers (MRLs). In time of crisis, this force can be reinforced by a large reserve-militia force numbering more than 1.5 million personnel and the one-million-man People's Armed Police (PAP).

The structure of the PLA ground force before the mid-1980s reflected operational concepts which envision large numbers of divisions being employed in conjunction with vast paramilitary forces in the defence of China against an all-out attack. The force predominantly consisted of lightly equipped infantry soldiers, supported by tank, artillery, anti-tank, antiaircraft, and engineer units. Their organisations, doctrines and training copied Soviet models.

Lessons from the 1979 Sino-Vietnam border conflict made Chinese leaders realise that a huge but poorly equipped and trained ground force could not support China's defence needs. China began to reduce the size of the force and streamline the command and control structure in the mid-1980s. As a result, around 1.5 million ground troops have been cut since 1985. At the same time, the 'core units' in the PLA ground force have been given better equipments and training.
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/default.asp

Note that is total military. You really can't separate it like you're trying to.

No way. 7-10% is the norm.

.8% is 80%, no wonder you guys dont know what you are talking about.

And I said its 45 Million - (Minus) 8,375,000 = 36,625,000 Logistics and support personel.

.008445 is LESS then 1%

SEE 1% = .01%

SEE 100% = 1.0%

SEE 50% = .50%

SEE 75% = .75%

SEE 80% = .80%

SEE 5% = .05%

SEE 0.5% = .005 %

LEARN MATH AND THEN QUESTION ME

992,000,000 and 8,375,000

Lets see at 10% that would be 99,200,000

at 1% that would be 9,920,000

so 1% of my population is 9,920,000 and my COMBAT troops are 8,375,000

so according to your "math" then 80% = 8,375,000 of my population, therefore my population should be just over 10,500,000.

Sorry but your WAY OFF.

LEARN MATH AND THEN QUESTION ME
Thats it. I have had enough of your cocky, high-and-mighty attitude. Dracoinus, you are ignored. The Defence thread, never happened and any attack you may be planning in the near future is also ignored.

.8% is 80%, no wonder you guys dont know what you are talking about.

Actully .8% is.. .8%. if it was .8 then it would be 80%

I only use 5%! And it will never change! If i arm civilians, start a nationalist militia, it doesn't reflect upon those figures.

0.2456%

That is the exact percentage of my population in the military during its current peaceful state. The military percentage has never gone over 6% (which its record was reached in a war sparked by the ending of WWII back in 1947).

16% is absolutely ludicrous, that is almost three times the largest percentage I have ever fielded. I say ignore him.

.8% is 8/10ths = 80 %

.08% is 8/100ths = 8%

.008% is 8/1000ths = 0.8% must be written with a 0.8% in this format to note meaning less then 1%

0.2456%

That is the exact percentage of my population in the military during its current peaceful state. The military percentage has never gone over 6% (which its record was reached in a war sparked by the ending of WWII back in 1947).

16% is absolutely ludicrous, that is almost three times the largest percentage I have ever fielded. I say ignore him.
uuuh, I have but thanks for the tip:)

"Thats it. I have had enough of your cocky, high-and-mighty attitude. Dracoinus, you are ignored. The Defence thread, never happened and any attack you may be planning in the near future is also ignored."

.8 is 8/10ths = 80 %

.08% is 8/100ths = 8%

.008% is 8/1000ths = 0.8% must be written with a 0.8% in this format to note meaning less then 1%
You don't get it do you?
you're ignored, I no longer care about your military. Make it 90% if you want, I don't care and no-one will until the next poor person who has to RP with you.

uuuh, I have but thanks for the tip:)

"Thats it. I have had enough of your cocky, high-and-mighty attitude. Dracoinus, you are ignored. The Defence thread, never happened and any attack you may be planning in the near future is also ignored."

Ahh, I must have missed that part when I was clawing my eyeballs out in frustration.

16% is like Imperial Forces size..... And we all know what IF is...

.0084425 % < 1% of the total population are "combat soliders".

.8% is 80%, no wonder you guys dont know what you are talking about.

And I said its 45 Million - (Minus) 8,375,000 = 36,625,000 Logistics and support personel.

.008445 is LESS then 1%

SEE 1% = .01%

SEE 100% = 1.0%

SEE 50% = .50%

SEE 75% = .75%

SEE 80% = .80%

SEE 5% = .05%

SEE 0.5% = .005 %

LEARN MATH AND THEN QUESTION ME

[/quote]

You say eight thousandths of a percent (.008%) equals eight tenths of a percent (.8%) equals eighty percent (80%), etc., and then say others need to learn math? Come back when you learn some math yourself. :rolleyes:

You say eight thousandths of a percent (.008%) equals eight tenths of a percent (.8%) equals eighty percent (80%), etc., and then say others need to learn math? Come back when you learn some math yourself. :rolleyes:


Where did I say .008% = 80% ???? .008% is LESS then 1%

.80 or .8 or .8% is 80% you know like gee I have .80 cents thats almost a whole dollar.

.8 is 80%

.08 is 8%

and .008 is 0.8% as in .0125 is 1.25% and .015 is 1.5%

if it was .15 then it would be 15%

Ahh, I must have missed that part when I was clawing my eyeballs out in frustration.
No problem, I tore mine out a long time ago, around the start of this "conflict". :)

That's entirely incorrect.

0.8% is 80% of 1 - but is not simply 80%.

==============

Regardless - 16 per cent is entirely unreasonable.

I believe that anything over 5 per cent is difficult to sustain.

I currently use 1 percent, with a "idenfication draft" of another 1 per cent (allows for a quicker call-up, but doesn't include training).

Regardless - the 1 per cent number includes all logistical support (which is 75 per cent of the force).

That's entirely sustainable, and provides for an incredibly well-equiped, and well-trained fighting force.

Besides - moving too many men is just a pain in the ass.

The great thing is I am not the one moving men around.

My Military force is for the use of in the Empire of Dracoinus. I am not the one "invading" nor threating to "invade" its Sanctaphrax and his little buddies that are throwing out talk of "oh I am moving 450,000 troops and 100,000 to Sanctaphrax to help defend him.

Its not my logistical nightmare its theirs.

Where did I say .008% = 80% ???? .008% is LESS then 1%


Here:


Total Combat Soliders 8,375,000

Total Population (today) 992,000,000

.0084425 % < 1% of the total population are "combat soliders".

8,375,000/992,000,000=.0084425=.84425%, not .0084425%

You make the same error here:

.8% is 80%, no wonder you guys dont know what you are talking about.

And here again:

.80 or .8 or .8% is 80% you know like gee I have .80 cents thats almost a whole dollar.

.8 is 80%

.08 is 8%

and .008 is 0.8% as in .0125 is 1.25% and .015 is 1.5%

if it was .15 then it would be 15%

.8=80%. But .8% does not equal 80%, as you have repeatedly posted.

And I will further note that your unreasonable response here has resulted in your being ignored by several players.

I have put in a request that this thread and all the other Dracoinus-Sanctaphrax threads be locked.