NationStates Jolt Archive

This thread is to educate the players of N.S. to what a corporation is in this game. Corporations are -"NOT"-, I repeat NOT a nation. Corporations dont apply to the same rules as nations do. Corporations are not limited to budgets as much as nations are. Corporations do have corporate forces, which ( depending on the tech level) would make there corporate forces better them most militaries out there. Also if you some out become engaged in a conflict with a company, you can not engage them as normal combatants, because of the impossiblitity to attack all of thier assets and buildings not located in your nation. If the company has assets in other nations you would have to gain permission to enter other nations to engage the company. Remember companies most of the time have the best of equipment. so attacking a company is dangerous in its self. now to identify a corporation

1.The name : " Weapons-tech incorp" the name says it for its self. To be considered to be a company you MUST have the following in your name: Incorp, inc, corps, corp, ind, industries, or corporation, or Global

2. The ability to spend more then the normal calculators say. But to be able to claim to spend more then shown you must give proof of a storefront and must show earnings on the storefront. If none is hown you will be ignored.

3. If they claim to be a company, and not a nation, there forces are Different then normal national forces. companies that sell more advanced modern tech weapons, are more likely to win a war againsted a WW2 or gulf war tech nation, due to they will have the more advanced weapons in which to wage war with.

4. Companies Must have a way to prove earnings , if one can not be made they are considered to be going out out of Busniess

Hmm. You make corporations seem invlunerable. Who cares if they have the best stuff, when they don't have an army to use them? And attacking a corporation might not put it out of business for good, but it might make its stock price plummet. Also not buying from a corporation would hurt it too.

we have militaries read the post. we have corporate forces. and no attacking us does not put us out of busniess, and stock prices have been known to skyrocket in war, mine have done just that. and if you dont buy from them. thats not good, but its not going to destroy them, to make a boycott work everyone must do it and not everyone will. and yes it seems that we are invurnable but we are not. like i said you can attack our assests in your nation. and by doing so you are fighting them. but rest assured they will give you a challenge

thank you for clearing this up. you got that people this is who we are

thank you for clearing this up. you got that people this is who we are

The Trilateral Commission is a corporate entity with roughly 2.2 billion employees. Currently we don't have an arms storefront but our main sources of income include banking, currency manipulation, and industrial investments. Our "security agents" mainly deal in local turf battles and industrial espionage but we reserve the right to wage war on a nation-state. However, the Trilateral Commission is reasonable in calculating defense budgets and, in terms of size and quality, our armed forces is comparable to that of any sovereign nation of similar population size.

For more info on the Trilateral Commission visit the TC fact book: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=352611

see there are some of us, who are like this not just me and Weapons-tech

sticky/ sticky

1.The name : " Weapons-tech incorp" the name says it for its self. To be considered to be a company you MUST have the following in your name: Incorp, inc, corps, corp, ind, industries, or corporation, or Global

Bull. Aside from woeful violations of the concept of free-form roleplay, this is just simply wrong. Any nation can claim to be a corporation if it wants, regardless of nation title, or pretitle.

Besides, you forgot Limited Liability (Ltd.) And "corps" is a military unit, not a coporation. "Corp" would be the singular form. The abbriviation for "corporation" is "Co". "Incorp" is nothing.

2. The ability to spend more then the normal calculators say. But to be able to claim to spend more then shown you must give proof of a storefront and must show earnings on the storefront. If none is hown you will be ignored.

People use calculators?

Storefront earnings are the biggest piece of nonsense ever generated on these boards. Storefronts tend to completely ignore the fact that that stuff actually cost money to build and produce. Just because you sold your tank for $5 million doesn't mean you've generated $5 million in profit.

Furthermore, very few storefront owners ever bother to make sure the customers can actually afford what they're asking for. I've seen nations with "Basket Case" economies buying billions in equipment from numerous stores.

To be blunt, storefront "earnings" are bunk.

Besides, who in their right mind sells their top-of-the-line best equipment to nations who might use it against them?

3. If they claim to be a company, and not a nation, there forces are Different then normal national forces. companies that sell more advanced modern tech weapons, are more likely to win a war againsted a WW2 or gulf war tech nation, due to they will have the more advanced weapons in which to wage war with.

What are you talking about?

Oh, I get it, this is a Strawman. You're comparing varying levels of technology. Of course modern tech would beat WWII tech. That was 50 years ago, you know. I mean, I'm a nation and I could wax any moder-tech nation or corporation. IT, Intelligence, Defence Spending and other such UN rankings are far more important than if you're a corporation or a nation.

And, really, you still haven't explained why a corporation magically has better weapons and equipment than nations.

Oh, and this completely ignores things like tactics.

4. Companies Must have a way to prove earnings , if one can not be made they are considered to be going out out of Busniess

By whom? Nations and corporations are assumed to make money unless they state otherwise. It's this thing called Role-playing.

I think this is the strangest thread I've ever seen.

I'll bet you eighty squachillion pounds that no corporation can take on the 3rd world state of Lusaka and win in a martial conflict. I mean, apart from the fact that for every corporate employee we've a few thousand soldiers there's the fact that people will fight for country, home, race, religion, or political ideal a damn sight longer and harder than they'll fight for their christmas bonus or company loyalty mug.

Other than that you may just imagine me nodding along to Hack's post and regarding you with a look of considerable bemusement.

This thread is to educate the players of N.S. to what a corporation is in this game. Corporations are -"NOT"-, I repeat NOT a nation. Corporations dont apply to the same rules as nations do. Corporations are not limited to budgets as much as nations are.

The beginning of the BS. Corporations are probably even more limited to a budget than a nation ever would be. Just because a nation draws up a budget does not mean they are strictly guided by it. There are infinite ways to borrow money or divert funding, etc., to get funding to a certain area in a hurry, if you are a nation. On the other hand, a corporation is going to have at least as much red tape, if not more, than a nation in trying to get funding redirected. Obviously you've never worked in the business world if you think it is anything less than impossible to get funding for a project if it's not in the budget.


Corporations do have corporate forces, which ( depending on the tech level) would make there corporate forces better them most militaries out there.


This is also wrong. Corporate paramilitary forces are extremely rare, and where they do exist, they consist of former military personnel, making them at the very most as good as the military of the nation that they come from. A highly militarized nation is going to be able to field an infinitely more advanced and armed military than a corporation, because a nation's budget for that sort of spending can be limitless, whereas a corporation is concerned with profit above all else, and would not be willing to hemmorage money in order to have a ultra-high-tech paramilitary operation.


Also if you some out become engaged in a conflict with a company, you can not engage them as normal combatants, because of the impossiblitity to attack all of thier assets and buildings not located in your nation. If the company has assets in other nations you would have to gain permission to enter other nations to engage the company. Remember companies most of the time have the best of equipment. so attacking a company is dangerous in its self. now to identify a corporation


If you want to play by those rules, where a corporation is difficult to engage on a battlefield simply because of it's nature, then you have to be willing to be susceptible to all the various ways to engage a corporation in a business sense. For instance, boycotting a certain company is a viable way of "engaging" a corporate state like yours, because if my entire population of 3 billion isn't buying your merchandise, then your profits are going down, which means you've got less money to use in other ventures, etc. It's just like refusing to take losses in traditional warfare. If anything, it should be easier to take a corporation down than a militarized nation, because there are so many more subversive methods to destabilize and destroy a corporation (hostile takeovers anyone?).



1.The name : " Weapons-tech incorp" the name says it for its self. To be considered to be a company you MUST have the following in your name: Incorp, inc, corps, corp, ind, industries, or corporation, or Global


Why are we limited by your supposed rules? I have a nation, "The Imperial Corporation of Theoretical States", that I use as a R&D arm of my military, RPing various technological advances. That's a company, but it includes none of your words in its national name. Simple fact is if someone wants to play as a corporation, they can play as a corporation. After reaching 500 million population, you can just add some sort of corporate identifier to your nation's title anyway.


2. The ability to spend more then the normal calculators say. But to be able to claim to spend more then shown you must give proof of a storefront and must show earnings on the storefront. If none is hown you will be ignored.


That's some powerful godmodding. You can't claim all the resources of your nation as a nation and all of the resources of your nation as a company. That's just plain unfair. It isn't realistic that your company has a yearly revenue of $124 billion dollars, or a workforce of 3 billion plus. Either you are a corporation, in which case you go by storefront earnings, or you're a nation, and you go by one of the various GDP calculators. You don't get to be both. And I'm not going to even go into how flawed counting profits from storefronts gets.



3. If they claim to be a company, and not a nation, there forces are Different then normal national forces. companies that sell more advanced modern tech weapons, are more likely to win a war againsted a WW2 or gulf war tech nation, due to they will have the more advanced weapons in which to wage war with.


Well, no shit a more advanced company will be more advanced than a less advanced nation. But that doesn't mean they're going to win a war against even a medieval nation. A WWII-tech nation of 200 million would beat a modern tech corporation in warfare 10 out of 10 times. All the high tech gizmos you want aren't going to overcome a 1000 to 1 numerical advantage. Simple fact is that a corporation cannot even hope to field an actual military force even mildly close to the kind of military even the most pathetic nation can muster. You don't have the numbers or resources or the drive to field a useful army. Think about it this way, as well. People are willing to die for their country. How many people do you know who would be willing to die for the company they work for? I bet it's less than one.


4. Companies Must have a way to prove earnings , if one can not be made they are considered to be going out out of Busniess

Again, that's unfair to presume that people will play the way you think they ought to. Why does a company need to prove earnings? Certainly you don't know how Microsoft made every dime that they made last year. Companies make plenty of their financial records private. And that would be even more prevalent in the kind of corporations you're likely to see in NS, since most will be dealing with arms manufacturing, and a sizeable portion of their earnings would come from black market sales, something they're not likely to report willingly.

Yeah, so overall, you get a big NO.

People, corporations don't fight with general employees, they hire mercenaries or in some cases have in-house mercenaries. Mercenaries IRL are the very best trained and equipped(infantry level anyway) soldiers in the world. They come from ex-special forces backgrounds, then recieve even more training, and mercenary companies are allowed to enforce super-strict regulations on health and even attitude. Besides genetically engineered, trained from birth supersoldiers, mercenaries are second-to-none. They also cost roughly 5 times more........ And yes, they will have better equipment than nations because they make profits that go directly into purchasing newer and better weapons, no army in the world can afford to give every soldier an state of the art assault rifle with a german engineered scope, mercenaries have that as the norm.

Remember, when a nation's army loses, they retreat and regroup, they can't go out of business. When a mercenary army loses, they all lose their jobs and future plans. You better believe they'll fight harder than a kid scraping together some college money.

Speaking of mercenaries though, I may soon be hiring out divisions of my army, which is almost definitely the best equipped(this will soon be demonstrated), and second only in training to supersoldiers. Watch the threads this next week for details.....

LMAO.

Stupidity on a whole new level.

Now, apart from what TMGH & Sdaeriji mentioned...

You are aware of the fact that your OMG CORPORATION!!!11 has to care for education, basic welfare, housing & stuff like every normal nation?

Since, if it doesn't, you will have the tiny problem of angry workers kicking your CEO's ass.

Oh, as for the OMG PWRFUL11! military *snickers a little*...

Profits are less important than religion, nationality, civilization... As soon as problems arise, have fun dealing with mercenaries fleeing in terror. Since, ya'know... Mercenaries suck. After all... What are you doing with your money when you're dead?

So, to sum it up... Corporations are not only not superior to 'normal' nations... They have, in fact, to deal with more problems, and their overall capabilities are smaller than an actual nations capabilities.

All I can see here is you going RAWR! I'm big because all you normal nations suck!!!11. And that is nothing but a load of bullshit.

So... Is it fun there in your 'lil bubble universe?

And I wont even get started on the necessity of other people needing to accept your somewhat... Crazy ideas. Which they wont. Consent based RP can be a bitch, no?

People, corporations don't fight with general employees, they hire mercenaries or in some cases have in-house mercenaries. Mercenaries IRL are the very best trained and equipped(infantry level anyway) soldiers in the world. They come from ex-special forces backgrounds, then recieve even more training, and mercenary companies are allowed to enforce super-strict regulations on health and even attitude. Besides genetically engineered, trained from birth supersoldiers, mercenaries are second-to-none. They also cost roughly 5 times more........ And yes, they will have better equipment than nations because they make profits that go directly into purchasing newer and better weapons, no army in the world can afford to give every soldier an state of the art assault rifle with a german engineered scope, mercenaries have that as the norm.


Mercenaries are only going to be as good as the training they recieved in the military. Meaning unless you go shopping around other nations for mercenaries (which you better clear with me first if you plan on using Sdaerijian mercenaries), then your mercenaries are only going to be as good as the military that they come from. And unless the company in question is a private security firm, then a corporate paramilitary arm is going to recieve a very small percentage of company profits, because the company has much more pressing concerns, such as making more money, than equipping their mercenaries with more and more high tech weaponry.


Remember, when a nation's army loses, they retreat and regroup, they can't go out of business. When a mercenary army loses, they all lose their jobs and future plans. You better believe they'll fight harder than a kid scraping together some college money.


As a rule, a person fighting for a cause they believe in, such as their religion or their way of life, is going to fight harder and more valiantly than someone fighting for a paycheck. When a nation's army loses, their homeland loses, usually something important. When a mercenary army loses, they can go get another job. Look no further than 13th century Italy to see the effectiveness of mercenary armies. What's to prevent me from paying off that mercenary army you just sent at me and having it attack you instead? Think you could do that with a nation's army?

People, corporations don't fight with general employees, they hire mercenaries or in some cases have in-house mercenaries. Mercenaries IRL are the very best trained and equipped(infantry level anyway) soldiers in the world.

No, they're not. Most mercs are regs from their own countries, some are ex of their national special forces and highly prized as such, and a fair percentage are bluffers with no qualifications at all or psychopaths.

mercenary companies are allowed to enforce super-strict regulations on health and even attitude.

Yes, Private Military Companies [PMCs] can enforce stricter regulations, but if they do they'll only limit the number of people they can employ enormously.

They also cost roughly 5 times more........ And yes, they will have better equipment than nations because they make profits that go directly into purchasing newer and better weapons, no army in the world can afford to give every soldier an state of the art assault rifle with a german engineered scope, mercenaries have that as the norm.

Garbage. Most mercs don't even *own* their own weapon and get one issued by their employer. Average merc in a combat zone is happy with a Galil or AKM-pattern weapon.

Remember, when a nation's army loses, they retreat and regroup, they can't go out of business. When a mercenary army loses, they all lose their jobs and future plans. You better believe they'll fight harder than a kid scraping together some college money.

But they're only fighting for money, at the end of the day, and there's plenty of other jobs out there. Why stand and fight when you can sod off home and get another job that pays the bills and doesn't involve being shot at?

They also cost roughly 5 times more........ And yes, they will have better equipment than nations because they make profits that go directly into purchasing newer and better weapons, no army in the world can afford to give every soldier an state of the art assault rifle with a german engineered scope, mercenaries have that as the norm.


LMAO! Hence why the mercenaries of the 16th/ 17th century were equipped with artillery, owning the nations/ kingdoms of their time, leading the world into the age of mercenary corporations...

No, wait, it was the other way around, with the mercenaries not having the money to buy the more expensive equipment & vanishing as they were incapable of competing with 'regular' armies.

Who would have thought that?

Remember, when a nation's army loses, they retreat and regroup, they can't go out of business. When a mercenary army loses, they all lose their jobs and future plans. You better believe they'll fight harder than a kid scraping together some college money.


See above. Your life >>> money. You seem to be under the delusion that the very, very few serious 'mercenaries' in the world are an actual standard. Hate to bring this to you, but... They are not. The standard is a few AK 47 equipped cocaine addicts on a pickup.

Hate to explain this, but Corporations are MORE susceptable to destruction then Nations.

First - you blow up my capital. Big frickin hairy deal. I've got a bureacracy spanning the entire length of my country. Depending on the make up of the government, I could have anywhere from thirty to infinite people able to step in and continue the fight.

I also have people who will fight just because "it's my damn land, damnit!". Where do you think most terrorists come from?

I blow up your HQ and wipe out your board. Uhm, yes, there is a corporate ladder, but how much do you care to wager those people care to suffer another setback in property and hard assets? War means losses - which means expenses. As you fight, your insurance rates go up - WAY up.

On top of that, the business of business is Business. Not Warfare. You might manage a huge corporate army, made up of mercinaries. Wonderful! Now I freeze your assets. You going to pay them in what, stock options?

Your calculator idea is beneath contempt. A Nation taxes 30%, it gets 30%. A corporation couldn't dream of a thirty percent return on a thirty percent markup. So you sell your five million dollar tank - you might get $50,000 from the deal. And you have to go out and make yet another tank to get more funds (see "logistics").

To be a nation, all I need to do is exist.

So, you want to play with calculators? Great! I get my full amount, and you get one tenth of one percent of what is shown, as that is all the profit you are capable of sustaining.

Suck gas, evildoer.

We could go into the larger problem of the Great Wall of China - it was never breeched. Each time, the gatekeeper was bribed. And who is more bribable then a mercinary?

Am I going to engage your army? No - I'm going to use nerve gas on your general employees. I'm going to destroy your factories, your supply lines, go after bank accounts and every other asset you have. You have the logistical nightmare from hell to defend, I don't.

You think a Nation has red tape? Welcome to the corporate world. Backstabbery is a way of life. Bureacracy makes it a thousand times worse. In my nation, I can go get a pen. In a corporation, the forms alone eat a package of pens. Why do you think strips like Dilbert are so popular, because they make that stuff up?

Gets FAR worse when your competitors realize you're tying up assets in a war against some nation - which makes you vulnerable to hostile takeover of, if not the company, at least some of it's contracts that you now can't deliver on.

Can you afford to equip a military with your latest gizmos? Sure - but I'll bet I can buy better from someone else. And that equipment you're equipping with is equipment you are not making any profit from. Even worse, you fire a shot, that's money wasted, gone, departed.

And a mercinary will NOT fight harder - proof goes all the way back to Rome, Sileetris. They will get fed up and leave if enough losses taken, because they HAVE their money. They don't care about the company, they care about paychecks and living to spend them. That whole "loyalty" issue makes mercinaries a chancy proposition at best.

So, Weapons-Tech incorp? Take your pathetic attempt at Godmoddery and "I am the law", fold it to all sharp points, and stuff it.

If in fact you are a Corporation...You would still need to be located in a country. And if you wage war against another country, you will need to have to field your armies somewhere, and I doubt the country you exist in would allow a build up of toops, if you are able to somehow find a way to recruit people from the country you are based at. I doubt a country would allow their citizens fight a war for some corporation that seemingly exists in their country.

Another thing is that if you are a corporation, you would have to base all your goals and/or methods of running your country solely for increasing profit. And how will you earn profits if you as a corporation cannot mint your own currency. The excuse that it is easy to print out money is then countered by the fact that you are not recognized as a full diplomatic nation and therefore any nation could void your currency. The US colonies started out with a haphazard currency system most likely developed by individual merchants. The currency could have been valid in the colonies among the different merchants but it would be voided when wanting to purchase foreign goods.

In the global community of NS, every nation has the right not to recognize a corporation and therefore ignore you. You may say that you are not going to sell us products, but the fact is that we can probably get the same goods you are selling and probably cheaper from hundreds of other groups.

I personally do not see the possibility of a corporation existing if it did not have an origin and established a headquarters inside a country.

OOC: if i might be realistically incorrect, then it is because im very tired right now...
OOC2: my macro/micro economics is rusty...so someone quote me and correct me...

thank you for clearing this up. you got that people this is who we are

So you're a godmodding twit? Got it, thank you.

*IGNORED*

It seems like they want to be treated like a nation where it benefits them and be treated like a corporation where it benefits them.

If in fact you are a Corporation...You would still need to be located in a country. And if you wage war against another country, you will need to have to field your armies somewhere, and I doubt the country you exist in would allow a build up of toops, if you are able to somehow find a way to recruit people from the country you are based at. I doubt a country would allow their citizens fight a war for some corporation that seemingly exists in their country.

Another thing is that if you are a corporation, you would have to base all your goals and/or methods of running your country solely for increasing profit. And how will you earn profits if you as a corporation cannot mint your own currency. The excuse that it is easy to print out money is then countered by the fact that you are not recognized as a full diplomatic nation and therefore any nation could void your currency. The US colonies started out with a haphazard currency system most likely developed by individual merchants. The currency could have been valid in the colonies among the different merchants but it would be voided when wanting to purchase foreign goods.

In the global community of NS, every nation has the right not to recognize a corporation and therefore ignore you. You may say that you are not going to sell us products, but the fact is that we can probably get the same goods you are selling and probably cheaper from hundreds of other groups.

I personally do not see the possibility of a corporation existing if it did not have an origin and established a headquarters inside a country.

OOC: if i might be realistically incorrect, then it is because im very tired right now...


Oh, yes, thank you I forgot this part.

You're a corporation that "took over a Nation". Sounds like such a pleasure, no?

Wrong.

Now you have to supply all those people with the basics of life. You know, expensive stuff like food, water, shelter, healthcare. If you want anything decent to work with, you'll need education on that list as well. And transportation. There's profit going out with nothing coming back. You can now no longer draw any profit from those people - it's an internal paper shuffle with no net gain.

Let me repeat that in simpler terms:
Ya gotta feed, clothe, water, shelter, house, commit to sanitation, and give all the worldly things to those people. And no matter what they buy from you,
your net profit from it is zero.

You have the right to print your own money, which no one has to recognize. Worse, they DO recognize it and set about destroying your economy by currency trade and manipulation. You can't do what a nation would do, that would destroy your corporate image. So that's more money you have to pour in after money to protect yourself - and that's more profit you lose.

The bigger you get as a corporation, the kludgier you get. In a nation, when a generation dies off, it's superstitions die with it.

In a corporation, they become policy. Don't get me started on dumb ideas corporations have made policy. I'll be here all month.

So much for the myth of the supercorporational power...

Oh, yes, thank you I forgot this part.

You're a corporation that "took over a Nation". Sounds like such a pleasure, no?

Wrong.

Now you have to supply all those people with the basics of life. You know, expensive stuff like food, water, shelter, healthcare. If you want anything decent to work with, you'll need education on that list as well. And transportation. There's profit going out with nothing coming back. You can now no longer draw any profit from those people - it's an internal paper shuffle with no net gain.

Let me repeat that in simpler terms:
Ya gotta feed, clothe, water, shelter, house, commit to sanitation, and give all the worldly things to those people. And no matter what they buy from you,
your net profit from it is zero.

You have the right to print your own money, which no one has to recognize. Worse, they DO recognize it and set about destroying your economy by currency trade and manipulation. You can't do what a nation would do, that would destroy your corporate image. So that's more money you have to pour in after money to protect yourself - and that's more profit you lose.

The bigger you get as a corporation, the kludgier you get. In a nation, when a generation dies off, it's superstitions die with it.

In a corporation, they become policy. Don't get me started on dumb ideas corporations have made policy. I'll be here all month.

So much for the myth of the supercorporational power...

I don't think they're arguing that they're corporation-nations. I think they're saying that they are actual, stand-alone corporations, with workforces in the billions and budgets in the trillions, located within all of our nations. So they wouldn't have to clothe, feed, house, educate, etc. all of their workforce because, concievably, we're doing that for them, since they are all our citizens.

No, they're not. Most mercs are regs from their own countries, some are ex of their national special forces and highly prized as such, and a fair percentage are bluffers with no qualifications at all or psychopaths.I seriously doubt there would be many bluffers considering any legitimate mercenary company would demand military records on their resume, and no bluffer is stupid enough to forge their way into a job that can easily kill them.
Yes, Private Military Companies [PMCs] can enforce stricter regulations, but if they do they'll only limit the number of people they can employ enormously.Hence their individual superiority to standard armies. No one ever said the mercenaries would have a numerical advantage......
Garbage. Most mercs don't even *own* their own weapon and get one issued by their employer. Average merc in a combat zone is happy with a Galil or AKM-pattern weapon.
Never said they owned thier own weapons. Notice that you said average merc; there is a phenomenal curve between average and elite mercenaries.
But they're only fighting for money, at the end of the day, and there's plenty of other jobs out there. Why stand and fight when you can sod off home and get another job that pays the bills and doesn't involve being shot at?Good question, but by your logic there would be no reason at all to be a mercenary, and obviously that isn't the case.
~~~~~
LMAO! Hence why the mercenaries of the 16th/ 17th century were equipped with artillery, owning the nations/ kingdoms of their time, leading the world into the age of mercenary corporations...

No, wait, it was the other way around, with the mercenaries not having the money to buy the more expensive equipment.

Who would have thought that?There is a very large difference between mercenaries back in those days to the ones of today. Maybe if you weren't gathering intelligence from your time machine you would see this. Oddly enough, corporations were much less powerful at the time as well, hmm very odd indeed.
See above. Your life >>> money. You seem to be under the delusion that the very, very few serious 'mercenaries' in the world are an actual standard. Hate to bring this to you, but... They are not. The standard is a few AK 47 equipped cocaine addicts on a pickup.I never said any such thing, obviously there are dime a dozen idiots with guns you can hire, thats a given, but there are also extremely elite mercenaries you can hire, and they are a crapload better than any standard army. Using extremely elite mercenaries wisely allows you to shoot straight for the head of a country.
~~~~~
I'm not arguing in favor of corporations being as powerful as he claims them to be(crap, one apache vs. the board of directors isn't so difficult to pull off). What I'm saying is, modern mercenaries can be better soldiers than modern armies, because we are talking about modern times. Although I will mention that a corporation that takes over a country doesn't necessarily have to employ its people, instead it can use them as a captive audience(ban imports from rival companies) while a puppet government does its job(putting money into the corporation with contracts), if it ever happened and was enforced, they would win both ways.

Another problem with mercs is the potential lack of comradeship; a real millitary may be squads who have trained together and fought together, and soldiers who would lay down their life to protect the rest of their squad. Compare this to a force of mercs from different countries who don't know each other at all, and ask yourself:

'Given that you don't know is the guy next to you is even a soldier, let alone his history and whether he's a decorated veteran or a listless git who was dishonorably discharged for trying to stab his CO with a bayonet while drunk, would you care if he lived or died?'

OOC: i just thought something up...and i turned my laptop back on just to tell you this...you should feel honored...j00 g3t 0wn3d b'/ 5 h1ghsch00l3r!!!!!!!!!!11111111


Since you are a corporation. You have stocks. And since you have stocks. I as a nation could buy all your stocks and I would be in complete control of your corporation. I could sell you piece by piece or I could just declare that you do not exist anymore. And also since you are a corporation, you should be bound by the rules of doing as much as you can to earn money and profits, just like how human nature is. SOOO if a country is offering you an amount 3x as much as your corporation costs, I doubt any sane person wouldn't reject that offer (for example: 1trillion dollar company and a country or several countries working together would offer you like 5 or 6 trillion dollars...I doubt a person wouldn't accept that.). And if you say you don't have stocks...Then you might as well be calling yourself a very rich "mom and pop" store.

OOC2: whew...and someone quote me on this....i have forgotten what i had in my AP Macroeconomics texts...

I don't think they're arguing that they're corporation-nations. I think they're saying that they are actual, stand-alone corporations, with workforces in the billions and budgets in the trillions, located within all of our nations. So they wouldn't have to clothe, feed, house, educate, etc. all of their workforce because, concievably, we're doing that for them, since they are all our citizens.

...which would make them all the more vulnerable, not less. CEOs and other officers need to be available to their stockholders.

Simple way to win a war - buy stock, demand an appearance, nuke the building.

If they are corporate-states, they have massive vulnerabilities.
If they are separate entities, they have massive vulnerabilities. Mostly no nation in it's right mind is going to attempt to protect a corporation at war with a nation - the question of "Hey, wait. IF they're attempting that there, what prevents them from doing that to us? Maybe I should delay reaction a bit, force some concessions...."

A Corporation may have one-tenth of one percent of what it shows as sales in it's storefront - after all, Weapon-Tech wants it shown there, fine, hang by your own petard. No sales, no income. And you still need to pay all your bills....

In short, the ship sinks even more quickly.

Another problem with mercs is the potential lack of comradeship; a real millitary may be squads who have trained together and fought together, and soldiers who would lay down their life to protect the rest of their squad. Compare this to a force of mercs from different countries who don't know each other at all, and ask yourself:

'Given that you don't know is the guy next to you is even a soldier, let alone his history and whether he's a decorated veteran or a listless git who was dishonorably discharged for trying to stab his CO with a bayonet while drunk, would you care if he lived or died?'
Thats why they have stringent attitude policies before hiring, requirement of honorary discharge, clean criminal and health records, and squads made from single country backgrounds. They also have the reservoir dogs effect to keep eachother scared in line.

OOC: is everyone going to ignore my post? well...im going to sleep...economics is boring...blah...

I'll bet you eighty squachillion pounds that no corporation can take on the 3rd world state of Lusaka and win in a martial conflict. I mean, apart from the fact that for every corporate employee we've a few thousand soldiers there's the fact that people will fight for country, home, race, religion, or political ideal a damn sight longer and harder than they'll fight for their christmas bonus or company loyalty mug.

I don’t know, the Umbrella corp. looks like it could.

I seriously doubt there would be many bluffers considering any legitimate mercenary company would demand military records on their resume, and no bluffer is stupid enough to forge their way into a job that can easily kill them.

You'd be surprised.

Hence their individual superiority to standard armies. No one ever said the mercenaries would have a numerical advantage......

You don't listen, do you? Most mercenaries are just regular soldiers, special forces mercs are rare and precious things. And even when mercs have special forces training, oddly they're no better than the enlisted special forces of their own nation.

Never said they owned thier own weapons. Notice that you said average merc; there is a phenomenal curve between average and elite mercenaries.

And an equally phenominal difference in number between one and the other. Just because you say 'we will only accept mercenaries will skills X' doesn't mean these people will actually exist, you know. And 'elite' mercenaries don't magically gain access to top-flight hardware; mercs in former Yugoslavia from the Royal Marines and SAS / SBS were cheerfully using AKM assualt rifles and Dragunov SVD sniper rifles. Why? Because that was what was available.

Good question, but by your logic there would be no reason at all to be a mercenary, and obviously that isn't the case.

There's plenty of reason. Modern soldiers spend years learning skills they may never be called upon to actually use, some jump at the chance to go into a combat zone. Expats also sometimes go back to their country of origin to fight for money. The more psychotic entries just want the chance to murder and kill with impunity.

But the ones who are only in it for the money aren't going to stand and fight to the death, because you can't spend money if you're dead.

Thats why they have stringent attitude policies before hiring, requirement of honorary discharge, clean criminal and health records, and squads made from single country backgrounds. They also have the reservoir dogs effect to keep eachother scared in line.

You'll find national militaries are rather loathe to hand out confidental military records to people trying to hire their former personnel. And you can fake that stuff.

I seriously doubt there would be many bluffers considering any legitimate mercenary company would demand military records on their resume, and no bluffer is stupid enough to forge their way into a job that can easily kill them. Hence their individual superiority to standard armies. No one ever said the mercenaries would have a numerical advantage......

You're deluded. Bluffing is a human hobby. And you'd be amazed how many people can wax the paperwork.



Never said they owned thier own weapons. Notice that you said average merc; there is a phenomenal curve between average and elite mercenaries.
Good question, but by your logic there would be no reason at all to be a mercenary, and obviously that isn't the case.
~~~~~
There is a very large difference between mercenaries back in those days to the ones of today. Maybe if you weren't gathering intelligence from your time machine you would see this. Oddly enough, corporations were much less powerful at the time as well, hmm very odd indeed.
I never said any such thing, obviously there are dime a dozen idiots with guns you can hire, thats a given, but there are also extremely elite mercenaries you can hire, and they are a crapload better than any standard army. Using extremely elite mercenaries wisely allows you to shoot straight for the head of a country.

And at what cost? Because there is no standard about my nuking the hell out of every ship you own, factory you have, anything else you possess - at the same time buying all your stock at plummeting prices as I nerve gas employees, make lots of court cases against you for failing minimal safety standards, screw around with your profits in a zillion ways...

Nobody works for the victim of a nutcase with legitimate nuclear weapons. It's not worth it - you won't come home. On the other hand, I'm fighting a patriotic war. When it comes down to it, you might have their wallets - I've got them by the hearts, minds, and gonads.

You WILL lose because I don't need profit, scorched earth works just fine.



~~~~~
I'm not arguing in favor of corporations being as powerful as he claims them to be(crap, one apache vs. the board of directors isn't so difficult to pull off). What I'm saying is, modern mercenaries can be better soldiers than modern armies, because we are talking about modern times. Although I will mention that a corporation that takes over a country doesn't necessarily have to employ its people, instead it can use them as a captive audience(ban imports from rival companies) while a puppet government does its job(putting money into the corporation with contracts), if it ever happened and was enforced, they would win both ways.

You miss the point - you're not creating any income, you're losing income on the deal. Economics 101 - no net profit, only paper shuffles. This will destroy the profitability of the puppet in the long and short term. This is why corporations AVOID this situation - it hurts their profit margin.

Thats why they have stringent attitude policies before hiring, requirement of honorary discharge, clean criminal and health records, and squads made from single country backgrounds. They also have the reservoir dogs effect to keep eachother scared in line.

This vastly increases your cost of keeping them. And these people are going to be smart enough to go "God Kee-rist, that som-bitch is walking nukes through us. Screw this, I'm going to go somewhere quiet and spend my money."

You have no loyalty, only pay. This means I can destroy what holds them to you far quicker, because they're fighting for a paycheck.

Why are there mercinary companies? Because killing is easy, and if you get anything like ok at it, people will hire you to do it. But when it comes down to facing a reasonably industrialized country... that's not peasants with Enfields, that's F-15s with biological and chemical warheads. Screw it, I'd rather be hired for guard duty of some despot - longer lifespan.

What the heck's the umbrella corp and how the heck would it subdue millions of nationalist soldiers supported by the population, for example? Especially in a nationalised economy with no gap for the corporation to get its foot in the door.

I think... the main point with mercenaries... they may be great in supporting your core army when you're going to win, but once your plan meets some problems (and what plan doesn't once the enemy actually joins in?) they just aren't going to stick around... save perhaps a few who just and so happen to be sociopaths and aren't interested in your objectives anyway.

OOC: i just thought something up...and i turned my laptop back on just to tell you this...you should feel honored...j00 g3t 0wn3d b'/ 5 h1ghsch00l3r!!!!!!!!!!11111111


Since you are a corporation. You have stocks. And since you have stocks. I as a nation could buy all your stocks and I would be in complete control of your corporation. I could sell you piece by piece or I could just declare that you do not exist anymore. And also since you are a corporation, you should be bound by the rules of doing as much as you can to earn money and profits, just like how human nature is. SOOO if a country is offering you an amount 3x as much as your corporation costs, I doubt any sane person wouldn't reject that offer (for example: 1trillion dollar company and a country or several countries working together would offer you like 5 or 6 trillion dollars...I doubt a person wouldn't accept that.). And if you say you don't have stocks...Then you might as well be calling yourself a very rich "mom and pop" store.

OOC2: whew...and someone quote me on this....i have forgotten what i had in my AP Macroeconomics texts...


You don't need all their stock, only 50.1% of it.

And there's a pirhana law to Stocks - if the corporation is "privately owned" (ie- they own controlling interest of their own stock) their stock price stays low. If it's "publicly owned", their price can go higher - and they're more vulnerable to hostile takeover.

We could really go into this, but I'll take all the money I earn IRL from stocks and the years of experience doing this against your dreams any day.

You don't need all their stock, only 50.1% of it.

OOC: i knew that...but wouldnt it be easier to just buy the corporation and sell it into a billion little pieces...

I don't think they're arguing that they're corporation-nations. I think they're saying that they are actual, stand-alone corporations, with workforces in the billions and budgets in the trillions, located within all of our nations. So they wouldn't have to clothe, feed, house, educate, etc. all of their workforce because, concievably, we're doing that for them, since they are all our citizens.

bingo.. this guy hit the nail on the head. Except that most of my employees are created by us. Genome Employees
created in a lab. so are our corporate forces. but other people like us use that exact method of living. i think its time to let this die guys sorry to bring it up.

bingo.. this guy hit the nail on the head. Except that most of my employees are created by us. Genome Employees
created in a lab. so are our corporate forces. but other people like us use that exact method of living. i think its time to let this die guys sorry to bring it up.

But arguing that you're a corporation-state, with billions of employees and trillions in budget is BS. You can't have all the benefits of being a nation and all the benefits of being a corporation without any of the drawbacks of either, and you sure as hell can't presume that your "citizens" live in other people's countries. At least not mine, that's for sure.

we have draw backs, we cant engage everyone who disagrees with us. we do have to take care of our employees

Ok, after reading all the Moderator ranting and all the other players yell the accursed words "God modding"and before I go on let me say I applaud you Weapons-tech for thinking about this kind of game play, I think that some of the Moderators are mad that you are taking the game to a new level, and they are unable to think of a new rule to counter you with( And I am sure I will get some T.G.'s for saying that).And all the other players are mad cause you thought of this idea first. I know what Weapons-tech Incorp is trying to do. He is not trying to say “We are the mighty companies bow down to us now!" He just wanted to tell people what it means to be a Corporation in this game. Weapons-tech has a great idea ( that by the way will not affect RP in anyway, unless you let it). So in short Weapons-tech incorp Hobbeebia Commends you for your splendidly brilliant idea, and the regions The Roman Raven Empire, And Trigger Happy also commend you on a brilliant idea for the advancement of the game of Nation States

Bravo bravo

You don't need all their stock, only 50.1% of it.

OOC: i knew that...but wouldnt it be easier to just buy the corporation and sell it into a billion little pieces...

If you own 50.1% of the company, you own control of the company because any change is voted on by the stockholders - and you win every vote. So you can "elect" your own board of directors who will do whatever you want - including sell it off in billions of little pieces.

This is what the Wall Street Raiders of the 80's were doing.

we have draw backs, we cant engage everyone who disagrees with us. we do have to take care of our employees

Thank you, you proved my point and screwed yourself into the ground.

TTFN and tah tah, your stock is going to hell in a handcart with all those extra expenses.

*buys two hundred billion 40-Q PUT contracts on Weapons-Tech Incorp and waits for the opportunity to break it when the stock drops*

alittle late. I have lready bought the rest of the stock. and the stock prices has increased in value. I am quite pleased with the outcome of the investment

I will be letting Weapons-tech hold its Corporate H.Q. in my nation and will be protecting its assets.

OOC: This is what I would do if some corporation decided to try to take over Vrak:

1) No outside company is allowed a whole bunch of mercs running around loose in the first place. Not even the domestic ones. Even if some happened to sneak in or later “grown” in a lab, I doubt that they can withstand the full might of our military. Not that it would be needed of course.
2) Vrak has strict rules in allowing outside companies in. In RL, there is usually some kind of rules stipulating that the host nation has some kind of interest in the company. Depending on those rules, we may suddenly want to tax you out of Vrak or buy up all your stock. We also want (in fact, we insist) that most of the staff are locals. After all, why do we want a company arriving in our nation and then bringing in their own workforce?
3) A corporation is subject to the laws of the land. In other words, a corporation must obey Vrakian law, and not the other way around. The land you occupy is ours. There is not such thing as extraterritoriality. If we decide to seize your assets (records, equipment, personnel) there ain’t much you can do about it. Now, our international reputation may suffer (other companies may take flight, etc…) but it comes down to what we want to accomplish.
4) We would talk to other countries that also host you and carry out a smear campaign. In other words, if you happen to have branch offices in Iuthia, Ilek-Vaad, Santa Barbara, any FKC state, etc… we are going to get on the horn and tell them what’s up. Then you aren’t just fighting one country – but a whole mess of them.
5) We (as a government) have the entire resources of a government at our disposal. Think about this. There are also corporations that (and this does happen in real life) are patriotic and would attempt to get you. People already mentioned the concept of a hostile take over. In Vrak, it has a more literal meaning. We can also erect tariffs to keep your products out.
6) We can also influence the consumers through a variety of campaigns. I doubt that all your products would be exported out of Vrak. As others have mentioned, if we stop buying your stuff then your corporation (at least the branch offices in Vrak) will be sunk. I would think that the CEO of your corporation would want to continue to pump money into a losing investment.

Personally, I think it would be kind of neat to have some kind of super corporation attempt to do something like this. It’s just that the chance for success are so small, that I doubt the shareholders would vote for it. But, there are other ways a corporation could exert its influence. Why not (as they do in real life) attempt to lobby the host government? Perhaps they can create some kind of close of the president and then kill the real one. Then the clone will obey its corporate masters.

alittle late. I have lready bought the rest of the stock. and the stock prices has increased in value. I am quite pleased with the outcome of the investment

You have no idea what a PUT option is, do you?

If you own 50.1% of the company, you own control of the company because any change is voted on by the stockholders - and you win every vote. So you can "elect" your own board of directors who will do whatever you want - including sell it off in billions of little pieces.

This is what the Wall Street Raiders of the 80's were doing.

hehe...i know that...i watched the movie Wallstreet...in class...and had to write an essay on it for my final...eh...

was an Ok movie

was an Ok movie

yea...it was old...80s...but what was an inspirational movie we watched was Tucker...like the Tucker cars i think...only 50 were built...

Yea , there was only 50 built. And they are very rare to find and are worth thousands of dallors

Ok, after reading all the Moderator ranting and all the other players yell the accursed words "God modding"and before I go on let me say I applaud you Weapons-tech for thinking about this kind of game play, I think that some of the Moderators are mad that you are taking the game to a new level, and they are unable to think of a new rule to counter you with( And I am sure I will get some T.G.'s for saying that).

More likely I'll just tell you that trying to bolster support for yourself with a puppet doesn't work, W-T I.

Ok, after reading all the Moderator ranting and all the other players yell the accursed words "God modding"and before I go on let me say I applaud you Weapons-tech for thinking about this kind of game play, I think that some of the Moderators are mad that you are taking the game to a new level, and they are unable to think of a new rule to counter you with( And I am sure I will get some T.G.'s for saying that).And all the other players are mad cause you thought of this idea first. I know what Weapons-tech Incorp is trying to do. He is not trying to say “We are the mighty companies bow down to us now!" He just wanted to tell people what it means to be a Corporation in this game. Weapons-tech has a great idea ( that by the way will not affect RP in anyway, unless you let it). So in short Weapons-tech incorp Hobbeebia Commends you for your splendidly brilliant idea, and the regions The Roman Raven Empire, And Trigger Happy also commend you on a brilliant idea for the advancement of the game of Nation States

Bravo bravo

What the hell are you talking about?! He didn't think of this first, not by a longshot. I introduced Xaosis as an international corporation ages ago, but I'll just let his population speak for itself. The account uses an L for an I though, on account that I screwed up and answered one of the questions wrong when I created the first account, turning them into Democratic Socialists. It's hardly a new phenomenon. But Xao hasn't been active lately :( .

Ok, after reading all the Moderator ranting and all the other players yell the accursed words "God modding"and before I go on let me say I applaud you Weapons-tech for thinking about this kind of game play, I think that some of the Moderators are mad that you are taking the game to a new level, and they are unable to think of a new rule to counter you with( And I am sure I will get some T.G.'s for saying that).

More likely I'll just tell you that trying to bolster support for yourself with a puppet doesn't work, W-T I.


Oooooohhhhh - BUSTED!

The entire discussion against still holds. And, oh yes, if Hobbeebia bought all of WTI's stock - it's now not volitile, and will have an exceptionally low beta rating, which should serve to decimate it's perceived value.

That move will also efficiently make WTI entirely held by Hobbeebia, and will make Hobbeebia responsible for whatever WTI does, as it is now "national property".

Suck gas, evildoer. :eek:

Just want to say to the corporations-

We're not discouraging you from playing Nationstates, just that you're not as invincible as you think you are.

I would love to know why you think Weapons-tech is a puppet of mine. I have no idea who weapons-tech belongs to. I am not to happy about you saying that about me, and please dont bring out the IP crap. I use a school computer to do all of my work on N.S. And if someone else made him on this same computer thats not grounds to accuse me of trying to bolster support for yourself with a puppet. I dont even care what happens the him. i just read all the stuff he put down and thought it was a good idea.

I am asking th mods to shit this thread down because it is taking to much of my time up, and i am sure weapons-tech will learn his lesson. And now the mods can be happy that its over and we can all return to our happy lives

I am asking th mods to shit this thread down ...
I think they've already done a fine job of shitting on the concept, thank you.

Just out of curiousity, what gives Hobbeebia the right to request that this thread be 'shit down'? Only the topic originator can reques .... oh, *I* see. Good thing we believe you when you say you aren't the WTI puppetmaster. Certainly GMC Military Arms can't be trusted about puppet ownership (even though he has access to all the necessary tools).

Another interesting point is that any casulties or destruction in a war is pure loss. Since governments are not ultimately interested in profit, it's possible for them to wage wars, whereas corporations simply cant afford to have assets worth hundreds of millions of dollars get blown to bits. Any war will cause your stock to plummet because your assets are literally disapearing without any compensation.

As for the storefront stuff... if the only trade that occurs in NS is on the storefronts, then we have a massive problem. No one sells clothing, food, pig iron, backhoes, seed, tar.... any of the things that nations need to survive. My flagship company, DCA, their main client is ME, and I don't bother to calculate the number of tires I buy from them a year.

Another interesting point is that any casulties or destruction in a war is pure loss. Since governments are not ultimately interested in profit, it's possible for them to wage wars, whereas corporations simply cant afford to have assets worth hundreds of millions of dollars get blown to bits. Any war will cause your stock to plummet because your assets are literally disapearing without any compensation.

As for the storefront stuff... if the only trade that occurs in NS is on the storefronts, then we have a massive problem. No one sells clothing, food, pig iron, backhoes, seed, tar.... any of the things that nations need to survive. My flagship company, DCA, their main client is ME, and I don't bother to calculate the number of tires I buy from them a year.

This is why if one of those "corpornations" tried to have a war, I'd spend every last dime I printed up dropping all kinds of biotoxins, chemical agents, and downright nuclear strikes on everything they owned.

It wouldn't be nessisary. Almost any loss would be too great. An angry anti-globalization mob with molotov cocktails would cause enough damage and would be far cheaper and much harder to trace

If it comes down to it, I'd want the reputation vs the corpornations.

"You're invading him? Are you crazy?!? Last time we got near him he blew up our shipping and dropped sarin gas on any store even thinking of carrying our projects."

This is not new. Players like "The Vortex Corporation", and "The Resi Corporation" thought of this a long time ago. WTI is just trying to change the rules in his favour.

please dont bring out the IP crap. I use a school computer to do all of my work on N.S. And if someone else made him on this same computer thats not grounds to accuse me of trying to bolster support for yourself with a puppet.

Ah, the old public computer ploy...

oh and to add on to that My date of creation is far to ahead of his to permit a real puppet owning. i am a 2003 nation he is a 2004 company. I have been around almost a year longer then he has even played the game. and besides I hate puppets

oh and to add on to that My date of creation is far to ahead of his to permit a real puppet owning. i am a 2003 nation he is a 2004 company. I have been around almost a year longer then he has even played the game. and besides I hate puppets

what stops you from making a nation and then creating a puppet company a year later?

I would love to know why you think Weapons-tech is a puppet of mine. I have no idea who weapons-tech belongs to. I am not to happy about you saying that about me, and please dont bring out the IP crap. I use a school computer to do all of my work on N.S. And if someone else made him on this same computer thats not grounds to accuse me of trying to bolster support for yourself with a puppet. I dont even care what happens the him. i just read all the stuff he put down and thought it was a good idea.

Unfortunately, there's significantly more evidence than just IPs. Now let it drop.

Originally Posted by Hobbeebia
I would love to know why you think Weapons-tech is a puppet of mine. I have no idea who weapons-tech belongs to. I am not to happy about you saying that about me, and please dont bring out the IP crap. I use a school computer to do all of my work on N.S. And if someone else made him on this same computer thats not grounds to accuse me of trying to bolster support for yourself with a puppet. I dont even care what happens the him. i just read all the stuff he put down and thought it was a good idea.

Unfortunately, there's significantly more evidence than just IPs. Now let it drop.

Oh no, let him bury himself then hear the evidence. Always wonderful.

*watches the stock drop further*