NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: This is the continuation of this thread: Austar Union to Host Talks: Founding a Warmongering Alliance [Talks Sign-Up Thread] (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=345323). If you are not on the list of nations attending and would like to be considered, please post on that thread and I'll get back to you.

Nations Welcome to Attend
Hamptonshire [HOST]
Iuthia
Praetonia
Lauterburg
Raginsheep
Automagfreek
Sarzonia
Shinoxia
Derscon
Sdaeriji
Kelanis
Tyrandis
Dracun imperium
The Island of Rose
Enodscopia
IDF
Wirraway
Rotovia
Axis Nova

Additionally to speed this up a bit, just assume that the people you've sent to the Conference are already in Hamptonshire.


IC:
---Silver Hall, Roosevelt Palace, 35 miles north west of Hamptonshire City---

With the Grand Duke and Foreign Minister out of the country, Prime Minister Cessar was left to deal with the details of this alliance. Addressing the gathered delegates in the Great Silver Hall of Roosevelt Palace, Prime Minister Cessar layed forth the intended goals of the new proposed alliance.

"For too long the established nations and powers of the world have been forced into submission. Whenever we act, swarms of lesser powers flood toward us. The many voices of the small, weak, and inexperienced are beginning to overpower the voices of the strong and established. I say that there has to be a change, and now is the time.

By coming together we can prevail, we can survive, and we can rule. The collective diplomatic power of a select few of the most powerful nations can always succeed over the incessent cries of the weak. No longer would we need to fear unjustified wars of agression, no longer would we need to fear the militaries of the naive.

It's time for a new age. It's time for a new order.


OOC: First off I think we should agree to what this alliance should focus on/stand for, then if we actually get something going here we can talk about specifics.

The senator from Dracun (Senator Traj) immiedtely spoke up "To true this is! I think though in order to create this alliance we must focus on its goals...so I propose this be a type of defense alliance and if nessecary peacekeeping alliance to ensure all nations in the alliance stay in the alliance!" he sat back down into his chair

There was applause from the IDF delegation after Mr. Cessar's well delivered speech.

The delegation wasn't ready to speak up yet. They weren't in opposition to anything said, but the IDF delegation showed up at the last minute and wasn't ready to speak yet. Their time would come later.

There was a Rosian in the back. A Lietenant, though according to Rosian standards, it is a lower position then General. He was wearing a standard green uniform, with a green beret. His name was Radir Se. He quietly observed the arguments... or the future arguments anyway.

In response to Senator Traj from Dracun, Prime Minister Cessar addresses the assembled delegates.

"We agree that one of the founding principles of this alliance should be mutual defense. However, unlike the so-called "mutual defense" pacts that are present in so many alliances our Mutual Defense should be concrete and solid. To write that the members of an alliance agree to defend each other is easy, to actually come to the defense of your allies is quite another thing.

As for the idea of a Peacekeeping Force, the establishment of such an entity could both help to preserve order in the members of this proposed alliance and it could act as an extension of the collective will of our organization."

"Well said...but how will we know what nation's shall and shall not come to the defense?" He asked "Also who will lead the peacekeeping force? It must be a nation of of respect and intellegence" He asked The Dracun have had a history of ministering the War ministry in alliances and hoped to do it again

The Lieutanant stood up.

"But for every war a person gets into? Or is it only for defense. The Rosians are particulary peaceful and only attack when it is in the aid of an ally or if it is justified. How would it work?"

He remained standing.

Not waiting for the host to answer he turned to the Island of Rose delegate "Maybe a court should decided if the reason for war is justified?"

Not waiting for the host to answer he turned to the Island of Rose delegate "Maybe a court should decided if the reason for war is justified?"

The Lieutanant looked at the Dracunian Delegate.

"I suppose. The Island of Rose also volunteers to lead the peacekeeping force. We promise to only use it after a war, after all they are supposed to keep the peace. We also will not abuse this force for our own means. Besides, the Island of Rose is respected and considered a peaceful nation. Nobody would be alarmed."

He still was standing.

"The Mutual Defense Agreement that we seek to include in this alliance would make it mandatory of members of this alliance to economically, militarily, diplomatically, and humantarianly aide other member-states who have been attacked without provocation. In cases of a provoked attack on a member-state (but not provoked by a military strike), members of this alliance would be compelled to diplomatically and humanitarianly aide the attacked member.

As for the issue of command and organization, we have been roughly sketching out a governmental framework for this alliance. All member-states would be on the Assembly of Nations, the legislative body, with 4 member-states elected to sit on the Council of Review, which acts both as the upper house of the legislature and as the judicial branch. Executive power would rest in a Supreme Chancellor, who would also sit on the Council of Review.

The decision to invoke the Mutual Defense Agreement for unprovoked attacks would rest in the hands of the Council. In all cases of joint military excersize between members of our new alliance, the Supreme Chancellor would be in both strategic and tactical command.

The Wirrawayan delegate to the convention decided that it was time to throw in his two cents worth and left his seat.

The Concordiat feels that the Island of Rose would be a strong canidate to lead the peacekeeping force. We also feel that a standing peacekeeping force is a neccesary part of the alliance. In times of war, which we hope will be determined by a majority vote, the force should activated and augmented as needed.

He reamianed standning

EDIT: Traj saw immiedtely advancement for himself if he got Dracun a place on the council "How will a nation be determinded to get on the council?"

You must keep in mind that in order to prevent the bickering and bureaucracy apparent in so many alliances, the top governing structure of this alliance will be kept at a minimum.

The Council of Review would act as both the court system and as the Cabinet for the Supreme Chancellor. Command and direction of specific organizations within this alliance would be filled by members nominated by the Chancellor and approved by the Council of Review.

EDIT: Traj saw immiedtely advancement for himself if he got Dracun a place on the council "How will a nation be determinded to get on the council?"

A nation would get on the Council by a general election.

Some of what we've come up with:
The UEN shall have a Council of Review comprising of 4 elected members and the Supreme Chancellor. Councilors shall serve staggered one month terms. Councilor elections shall be divided into two groups- Section A and Section B. Each Section shall comprise of two Councilors. Section A shall have an election on the 15th of every month, and Section B shall have an election on the 30th of every month or on the last day of the month, which ever is earlier.

The Council of Review shall act as the Judicial Body of the Union and by a vote of 4/5ths, it may veto a decision of the Assembly of Nations.

It should be noted that we have given this alliance the name Union of Established Nations (UEN), whether or not this name ends up as the final name of this alliance will depend upon a vote.

The Dracun senator sat down pleased with the type of goverment selected.

The Lieutanant scratched his head.

"How will this Alliance be different? How will this benefit us? What makes us nations special that the others don't have?"

Ambassidor Kayla Harmone arrived rather unceremoniously in a private jet owned by an Iuthian air company. It wasn't really something Iuthia wanted publicity with and they didn't really expect much to come out of this conference, but it would make for interesting observations.

Kalya didn't have any aides following her and security was rather loose with only a few security personnel coming along who would not be attending the conference itself and only liaising with the security in Hamptonshire to assure Kayla was safe.

They checked into their hotel and prepared for the conference itself, again, going around low profile in locally hired vehicles before Kayla arrived at the conference herself.

As she entered the building her long white dress blew a little in the wind, it wasn't the sort of dress which was very revealing, after all, she was an Iuthian diplomat. It was a long, plain white dress which had a cut down the side of the legs to allow for easier mobility, it didn't really show any cleavage and was quite tasteful. Kayla didn't have to wear the suits that other diplomats in Iuthia had to wear, a sign of her authority and importance to Lord General deGritz.

She entered the hall a little late, but was handed a transcript of what had been said. She calmly took a seat which had been marked out for her and listened to the others. She brushed aside some of her long, straight brown hair reaching down her back which had been mussed alittle by the breaze.

After which she simply took notice of others, seated in her place, her complexion not as tanned as other Iuthia were.

Quickly, listening to the current conversations with half an ear, Ambassador Harmone read the transcript and chuckled softly to herself... it was hardly audiable and only the trained ear could hear it as she made a point not to disturb the conference.

Kayla had seen many ideas very much the same as the Prime Minister of Hamptonshire was pointing out. Most of which failed to fit the description they had set out to create. Still, it would be important to add and listen to input at this stage to see what everyone was prepared for.

She listened to the Lietenant Radir Se from The Island of Rose ask how it would benefit them, she smiled.

"On the contary, while an alliance should benefit the members, the members should benefit the alliance as well. A strong alliance is more powerful then the sum of it's members, only a few of the alliances in the known world have achieved such an alliance, the rest seem to have innumberable problems regarding their own governance and more importantly; what they stand for."

Kayla calmly shuffled her transcripts before continuing.

"So far we have little reason to beleive this alliance is any more different from normal mutual defence pacts... something Iuthia isn't interested in tying itself down with unless we stand to gain something for our support. We pretty much never provoke wars and few nations would dare lash out against our military might and excellent reputation, so the real issue for us is what this alliance is trying to achieve and if the idea can prove it won't be more of a hinderance then a boon."

She then took a sip of water and listened to the responces, she felt she had layed the arrogance on a little thick, but in this case she could afford to and it would be interesting to study other delegates responces.

Director of Foreign Affairs Valerie Fenton remained rather quiet during the conference. A long flight from the Tyrandisan mainland drained a good deal of her energy, but the intense interest by the Triumvirate in this alliance kept her awake.

Overall, the terms and conditions being proposed were acceptable to Tyrandis, even if Fenton had her own personal doubts about the immense power that such a mighty organization would wield.

She sank back into her chair, half-dozing.

Nodding to the Iuthian Ambassador the Traj stood "We should make this alliance have something special something that all other alliances will envy for...something that has never been done before or done but hasn't work. All the great and powerfull alliances of the Past have had something special. I think we should be no different. Whether it be something like undying loyalty to eachother...or whether it be something else."
Suddenly getting an idea he stopped and began
"I propose that unlike other alliances we have a mini-united nations." Beggining to regret his words he continued
"As we all know the United Nation have resolution we should have them too...whether it be something as simple as a united flag or Destruction of Bio-logical weapon it should not matter. Note that this is only a proposal nothing more. But the benfiet you get from this is simple. A fair "democratic" commitee willing to listen to everything & anything you have to say. Note that all though the benfiet is still small it is still a benifiet. Plus you will never know when you may have need for it.." saying those last few words he sat down instantly regreting the words he just spoke. He sighed and hope he did not make a fool of himself

"This alliance seeks to acheive credibility and safety not only for the governments of those nations that are members, but of the citizens of each member-state.

In Ancient Rome, to harm a Roman citizen was unthinkable for it would bring the full wrath of the state upon the offender. Today where is that respect, where is that safety? By coming together and declaring with one voice our intentions for ultimate safety and security, we can ultimately open up the way for a more peaceful world.

A terrorist doesn't fear wide scale retribution or conventional war and neither does he/she fear a single nation or group of nation. However, united together and pooling our resources the nations of the UEN will present an extremely unpalatable target for those that would seek to do us harm. The combined military, economic, and diplomatic resources of many nations would be focused on retribution."

Taking a drink of water, the Prime Minister continues.

"As for the benefits to the members of this proposed alliance, look no further than your own people.

As a famous and wise general once said:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

Membership in the UEN can help buck the trend of current world military affairs- ever growing militaries with ever growing budgets. United in common agreement, UEN members can stop the expansion of their individual militaries without losing or compromising national security. Once this organization gets off the ground, another benefit will be made evident- with a organization of nations committed to each other and committed to common ideals, war aganist one nation would mean war against an entire community of nations."

Not quite sure of the response to his little speech, the Prime Minister took this as a opportunity to sit down.

Senior Vice President for External Affairs Mark Lorber sat thoughtfully listening to the speeches and discussion. He wasn't willing to give a full committment to this new alliance. Even if he were, the House of Delegates would still have to ratify the treaty and President Mike Sarzo would have to approve. With Sarzo in Praetonia, getting that approval would take longer.

This alliance sounds good, Lorber thought, but other ideas have looked great in the past and haven't worked out.

"I think you run into one problem," Lorber said, finally speaking after considering his remarks carefully. "What exactly constitutes a 'provoked' attack? Military action? Economic sanctions? Threats? There is more than one way to threaten another country.

"Also, I have a concern with regard to the position Supreme Chancellor. Is this an elected position or is it an appointment for life? If it is not elected, Sarzonia would have very serious reservations about taking part in such an alliance."

Even if Sarzo himself were appointed Supreme Chancellor, Lorber thought. He could almost hear Sarzo say, I have enough to worry about running one country, let alone an alliance.

Lorber sat back down wincing with sudden pain. My damn back, he thought. I need to get that looked at when I get back to Woodstock.

OOC: For some reason I feel like responding to this point by point.

IC:
This alliance sounds good, Lorber thought, but other ideas have looked great in the past and haven't worked out.
"That is why we must take care and continue to work on it. An alliance, like everything else, can only become great through hard and dedicated work"

"I think you run into one problem," Lorber said, finally speaking after considering his remarks carefully. "What exactly constitutes a 'provoked' attack? Military action? Economic sanctions? Threats? There is more than one way to threaten another country.
"We intentially left that open. Military action would constitute as "provoked", a "substantive" economic action aganist a nation would also qualify as "provoked", and "substantive" threats to a nation resulting in an attack would also be classified as "provoked.

To answer a future question "substantive" economic action would be action(s) which would measurably and negatively impact the economy of a nation. An embargo on oil aganist a nation when you provide them with 30% of their petrol would be "substantive", an embargo on wheat when you provide them with .00005% of their total yearly consumption would not be substantive.

A substantive threat would be one made with a preparation for military force. If you have a fleet just outside of a nation and you threaten them, you have to expect to get some sort of reaction. However, if you issue a threat of future action without a substantive miliary buildup that possesses the threat of eminent danager, that would not be "substantive".

"Also, I have a concern with regard to the position Supreme Chancellor. Is this an elected position or is it an appointment for life? If it is not elected, Sarzonia would have very serious reservations about taking part in such an alliance."
"[i]As taken from our draft prepared by the Foreign Ministry:
On the 7th day of every even numbered month, the members of the Union of Established Nations shall elect a Supreme Chancellor...

The Supreme Chancellor would serve two-month long terms. As for the possibility of impeachment, the process will be very similar to that currently employed by Victoria Alliance, which you should be familiar with.

The Lieutanant looked around for a minute.

"Mr. Cessar, the Rosian Armed Forces are not known for power. Would we still be able to join? Dumb question I know..."

The Lieutanant looked around for a minute.

"Mr. Cessar, the Rosian Armed Forces are not known for power. Would we still be able to join? Dumb question I know..."


"Of course you would be able to join, as I have said this alliance is not based solely on military power. The Island of Rose has diplomatic resources that quite a few nations dream of having. It should also be noted that by joining this alliance, some of the weak areas of TIOR's national security can be bolstered by the strengths of the other member nations."

"Of course you would be able to join, as I have said this alliance is not based solely on military power. The Island of Rose has diplomatic resources that quite a few nations dream of having. It should also be noted that by joining this alliance, some of the weak areas of TIOR's national security can be bolstered by the strengths of the other member nations."

The Lieutanant paused.

"Diplomatic resources? I'm an army man so I wouldn't know... mind informing me?"

The Lieutanant paused.

"Diplomatic resources? I'm an army man so I wouldn't know... mind informing me?"

Laughing, the Prime Minister responds:

"Of course, see me at the break."

For some reason, he just found that quite funny.

Laughing, the Prime Minister responds:

"Of course, see me at the break."

For some reason, he just found that quite funny.

The Lieutanant scratched the back of his head in confusion.

"Oh... kay... eh..."

He sat down, letting others speak now.

*bump*

Kayla sighed, so far this alliance hadn't offered anything particularly interesting to her. Being such an alliance to create a new world order didn't really fit Iuthia's ageda in the long run and nations like the Dracun Imperium and others were not the kind of nations Iuthia wanted to get tied down with... what if they pissed off the wrong people? Iuthia certainly knew how to keep the peace and had proven itself countless times, but what of others and what if they were to drag Iuthia into a situation they had little interest in...

Iuthia had what military backing it needed for the time being, otherwise the NATO alliance may have interested them for a moment... it was hard to see where the principals of NATO (not the reality of NATO) and the principals of this alliance differed. She had hoped to see some new thinking; but so far she had seen none. No worries, she hadn't come here to actually join an alliance, not unless by a miracle it turned out to be better then the NDA. So far all she could see was something which would weaken her homelands overall objectives.

Thoughout this process of though, Kayla's impression hadn't changed a bit, she had been trained careful not to give away tell tail signs with body language and her poker face wasn't giving anything away. That said, the fact she was wearing her poker face at all could raise question, but that was the point.

Kayla smirked.

"Military strength is only one side of the coin, relability is in our mind much more key to the sucess of such an Alliance. The basis of this alliance is designed around being able to enforce it's collective will... a single nation acting out of line will damage this. If members are off starting wars or sticking their nose in other nations private affairs then the alliance should have a say in that, afterall they will have to either back that nations interferance or deny it the right to do so... any middle ground could result in the alliance being split on it's opinion and a conflict occuring were backing isn't complete." She sighed. "We have no interest in backing nations who will try and enforce their laws upon other nations... we need to know that members will behave in such a fashion which suits an international power and not some warmongering fool."

OOC: I'll be gone for 16 hours or so...don't do anything rash.

It is at this moment that the every head in the room turned as the stern and imposing figure of the Rotovian Vice President rose to speak. Decked in an exquistly tailored creme Armoni suit, she was in stark contrast to the two male Naval Officers in their dark black dress uniforms to either side of her. With a sweeping glance she seemed to silence the room.

VicePresident: "Senator Julia Aptiva, Vice President of Rotovia... I represent a nation whos name stand with great respect in the international community and with an enviable reputation of military conquest..."

One of the men bearing the rank of Captain attempts to interupt her midsenence only to be back down as she delivers a glare with such coldness that it cut right through him.

VicePresident: "May I then presume that there is some reason why Rotovia should sign her name to this alliance and not one of the mant others that rise and fall everyday?"

In a sense a irony she ended her speech with a brisk smile.

Kalya now had a fairly definate idea that she would not be reporting to Lord General deGritz that this alliance would be worth their membership. Nations like Rotovia would only try and further enforce their wars which ignored a nations soviegn right to rule their own nation as they see fit... she did not even recognise their "reputation of military conquest". They are a bully and she wouldn't have anything to do with them.

Kayla simply drank her water and watched as others would know follow suit with questions as to how this alliance will benefit them while she had her suggested the problem that would been to need to be resolved.

Freiherr Wenzel von Battensee-Ruminov quietly observed the debates raging around him. Officially, he was part of the delegation sent by the Imperial Government of Lauterburg, but unofficially Battensee-Ruminov knew that the Federal Reichsrat would never support such an arrangement. His mind momentarily strayed back to the hectic and bloody days of the short civil war barely two months ago. He was acutely aware that any attempt to force the other minor German states to accept a decidedly unpopular cause would surely raise the spectre of another Reichstag-Reichsrat split. Battensee-Ruminov was enough of a political realist to understand that foreign intervention alone did not cause the young Federation to collapse during the conflict between Royalist and Republican. It was a matter of the other German monarchs not wanting to lose their crowns to radical democratic regimes.

The restoration of the Hohenstein to Lauterburg was conditional and by and large these triggers were satisfied. Elevating the King to Emperor was a simple enough affair. All it took was a Reichstag packed with eager Royalists. Giving the new Emperor of Lauterburg another Imperial Crown was a different subject, however. The consent of the other minor nations was needed and Battensee-Ruminov faintly remembered there being intense horse-trading sessions behind closed doors. In the end, the Emperor of Lauterburg would also be crowned German Emperor; primus interpares between the other states with no claims to superiority. Or so it was to be on paper.

One of the speakers raised his voice and slightly startled Battensee-Ruminov. The man looked flushed as he pounded his fist on the podium. He settled back into his chair and gingerly played with the Iron Cross decoration that hung suspended from his collar.

"No, this just won't do," he muttered under his breath. An elegant looking woman two seats to his left threw him a glance and frowned, her chaped lips pursed in distaste. Battensee-Ruminov scowled and retreated to his thoughts.

It was now a question of whether the Emperor of Lauterburg can remain as German Emperor while simultaneously throwing up claims of being the pre-eminent power in the Empire by taking unilateral actions in foreign policy. If the other states acknowledge Lauterburg's pretentions, then all was fine. The real danger lay in mass refusal by the other German kings and princes. The best case scenario would involve the Emperor of Lauterburg relinquishing his other Imperial title and passing it onto another state via the Imperial Electors. The worst case scenario would involve another civil war.

Battensee-Ruminov snapped open his spectacle case and put on his glasses. For the time being, he was the Lauterburger Ambassador to Hamptonshire and not an Federal Imperial delegate. He had his orders and they were to observe and, provided that certain conditions set out by the Imperial Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Defence were met, to pledge preliminary support for the treaty.

"That is why we must take care and continue to work on it. An alliance, like everything else, can only become great through hard and dedicated work" [OOC: Just an FYI, this part of the response was based on a thought. It wasn't something Lorber said out loud. It basically looks like you're talking to yourself IC.

I can see how it may appear to be a spoken comment, but I italicized it to differentiate between thought and speech.]

With the new empress in place of the emperor the course of diplomacy would better suit Dracun then a full out war maybe it was time Dracun led the diplomatic part of an alliance?
"Another suggestion if you don't mind...We should use our troops as a last resort only, First we should try diplomatc pressure then if they fail to listen to us...we should apply military force only if and only there is no other resort. We are tired of fighting war's we didn't start. Although we will help when called upon as long as the reason is just. The mere threat of dozens of nations should be enough to stop wars."
He sat back down

bump

The Praetonian Delegate arrived late. He was annoyed at pretty much everything right now as he sidled in trying veinly not to be noticed. He was the Foreign Office Permanent Undersecretary, and had been involved heavily in the Praetonian application to NATO and, in his early years, the foundation of the Victoria Alliance. He listened to what appeared to be being discussed, and he stood up to talk,

"What I have seen here today is a conference looking for the creation of a multi-nation mutual defence pact. It will have a rapid reaction responce force, it will have a strong stance against terrorism, it will have an elected heirarchy of nations, it will encourage diplomatic and economic relatins between members.

"This alliance seems to be like every other alliance before it. Concordia, NATO, Victoria, the Ottoman Alliance, more... Praetonia is not in need of allies. Praetonia does not want her military spending curtailed for greater reliance on allies. Praetonia is already a member of several alliances which seem almost exactly the same to this one. With but a few exceptions Praetonia is already allied to every nation attending these talks with which alliances are desired. Ladies and gentlemen, the diplomatic hype surrounding this alliances was that something new would be presented. All Praetonia sees is a step towards the creation of a federal superstate of which Praetonia does not want to be a part."

The Praetonian sat down, standing to regret the hours long flight. It'll be nice to explore Hamptonshire City, I suppose he thought to himself gloomily. He was gloomy much of the time...

The Dracun senator thought fast. If something was not done this would be another failed alliance creation.
"We need something unique something everyone will want as I mentioned this before and I have come up with something. Simply put we need to...be the only alliance where loyalty is assured...where a carefully planned infrastructure that will prevent a take over and a crumbling of the alliance. We must be active in the affairs of the world unlike others who only come when there allies do. We must have an econemy to prevent bankruptecy(sp). We must defend those who cannot defend those. But most of all we must remain loyal and friends through it all"
He sat down hoping he had convinced some of the possible member to stay

"It appears to me, honourable Senator, as though loyalty cannot be ensured in group alliances. Nor, indeed, can interest and activity. Look at what has happened to Concordia, and what is happening to the Ottoman Alliance. Both are dead or dying. The only way that this alliance can be any different, in my opinion, is to create an organisation of which every member completely trusts all of the other members. This alliance must then work as a group, sharing offence and defence. This kind of alliance must be based around a group of nations, not on the whims of a single nations, as seems to be happening here. In addition, the decision to admit a new member must be unanimous and each nation must make up its mind on stringent criteria. This conference, with its present member list, does not look as though it can achieve that."

[OOC: Praetonia, check TGs.

Also, check your storefront for an order I put in.]

Traj thought at the senator's response
"Too true. We need someone who cant test the nation's loyalty someone who has great respect. Someone who has had and still does have an honurable reputation to lead the alliance for the first month."
"He thought about it for a few seconds scanning the room "Iuthia maybe?" he asked turning to the delegate

BuMP

bump